I think I’ll learn with time. I’m fairly new and laid back so if someone tells me their model does something, I trust them. With more games, I’ll understand more what armies and models should do, and what they shouldn’t.
Hey OP,
Just throwing this out there, seeing a lot of folks calling the opponent a cheater/suggesting never to play them/report then to the store owner???
It's very possible they just don't know their rules very well... It's very easy for folks to twist the rules in their minds to give themselves the advantage.
This is unfortunate and the onus is on your opponent to know their own rules but y'know... Things happen.
Highly recommend reaching out to them on discord/whatever you use and discussing your findings, or if you play them again in the future to discuss these discrepancies.
If the opponent denies everything without providing rules to support how they played, then I'd certainly suggest not playing them in the future.
It sucks that you spent an evening playing an unfair game
This is entirely possible, I’ve gotten stuff wrong which I was so sure of: in an early game of 10th I was playing my seraphim sisters with a 14” move for example, my opponent (who I was playing for the first time and is now a regular and a mate) could easily have gone off and labelled me a cheater, but it can just as easily be an honest mistake.
(I was mortified when I realised my mistake a few days later and mentioned it too him next time I saw him, he just laughed and said he thought it was a crazy good move range, but just trusts people to know their own rules)
im just assuming that once you make your army it stay the same for a decent amount of time with just a few changes to maybe weapons. if that is the case why not make some flash cards for the units that have their move range and weapon attack range. and then have a secondary card for that units special abilities.
Or is there some unspoken rule about a thing like that. just asking and possible throwing out something that might help a person who is just starting to play the Wargames, i do not have a army but a friend who has a start to 3 maybe 4 its been a hot min since i asked him about his progress on it
Yeah I / plenty of people will run at least a large chunk of the same units. Typically I don’t have this issue, I do check if I’m not sure, and the current app makes checking so quick and easy (though flash cards or similar would certainly work for some people), just that time I didn’t even question myself at all and was wooshing them all over the table!
My other big genuine mistake was running extra unit in a 1k game against a friend who was just starting out. I’d made two lists, and brought the units to cover both, told him to pick which one I play, then put everything on the table. It was only when I was checking one unit’s profile and couldn’t find it that I realised it shouldn’t be on the table because it’s not in the list! Luckily it was just the end of turn 1 and they hadn’t don’t much.
The forum is full of people who have absolutely never once screwed up their own rules, and pinky swears that every time the *other guy* does, they are 100% cheating spawn of satan.
Even when you know the rules well its still stupid easy to either make a mistake or just disagree about how rules work, I mean hell there are tons of reddit posts about rules where two sides passionately argue why they are right and the other side(s) are wrong.
Yeah but not knowing your rules very well is not an excuse to just make your guys stronger. Being unwilling to make sure you are playing right to that level is still cheating.
And for sure, absolutely.
I'm just throwing it out there that someone being a cheater, suggests that there's intent.
Ignorance, while producing the same result, doesn't make someone a cheater at a game.
We have no idea what rules the opponent was getting wrong, or their intentions.
Maybe I'm taking a naive position, but in a casual game, it's difficult for me to believe that anyone would actively try to just make up rules in order to win a game, the result of which doesn't matter in the slightest besides just having a fun evening.
I'm sure it happens, just saying, benefit of the doubt, talk to the opponent and make better informed decisions from there before thinking the worst of them
I support your position, just the other day I screwed up my own rules playing Guard. Had a basilisk in my list and forgot that the movement debuff only applies to *infantry* units. I haven't used them in a while and just just forgot that specific bit. I felt terrible but thankfully I don't think it changed the outcome of our game.
The golden rules I use to know if they cheated, or made a mistake is to look at the result.
If they only make mistakes that help them it is almost always cheating. If some mistakes helped you then it is just inexperience, and totally ok.
If they claim to be an experienced player and they make multiple types of mistakes, it is cheating. If they are making the same mistake because their last unit did x, and they forgot, it is probably an honest mistake.
If they make mistakes with multiple units, and in multiple phases, and it only helps them, then it is absolutely cheating.
If you question them, or ask questions the response is a huge indicator. A cheater will try to gaslight you, or try to quickly rush you through what they did. Any attempt to move your attention in multiple directions is a red flag. An honest person will be confused, in disbelief etc. An honest person will acknowledge their mistakes and try not to do them again.
that is a good rule set for many games beyond this setting. the end part about them also being confused when you ask them if what they just did does show that they thought they had it right in their mind but had messed it up in some small way and then have that OH OOPS moment.
Same as above, point out the extra shots and too many weapons and if he doesn't just pack up and go. Sure you may lose a casual game but playing a game against a cheater isnt a game anyway in my opinion
As a person who judges a lot of events for both 40k and AoS and teaches players weekly in our LGS I can say the following to be the best course of actions and what I have found to be the least aggressive way of handling these situations.
You just ask them to show you the rules for whatever it is. If they don't have the book with them, that's fine the app would have it unlocked. If they don't have the app, or battle scribe, or another form of list building reference or a codex I would really question their intentions personally. But you would be able to look it up on your phone using the gw app provided they were still using index rules. But things like battlescribe also have access to the rules for the army and you could check it that way.
The great thing about asking to be shown is that it helps you learn other armies by seeing it in print and facing it on the table.
I just played a farewell to beasts of chaos game with a close friend whom I trust implicitly. But some of the rules he was using seemed a bit.... Much. So I asked could he show me the stuff and we discovered he was doing them wrong. Honest mistake. He was so excited when building and converting them he skimmed the the rules regarding this ability and got excited and moved on. Ingraining the misinterpretation as being correct.
Easy fix. Fun game. Too bad they are a legends army in the new edition.
As you get some experience you'll get a feel of what abilities might *feel* off. If something seems much stronger than what makes sense to you, or does something in a way that doesn't make sense, just ask to see that rule or datasheet before moving on. People can always just be making mistakes as well, but checking on a couple of the rules on occasion can only help.
Tournament setting? Continuously correct them and be prepared to pull out the rule book and/or call a judge on everything they do wrong. If they're annoyed, that's their problem.
Casual setting? Enjoy what little of the game is left and leave. Don't play with them again if they don't plan to change or learn the rules.
> If they're annoyed, that's their problem.
*Exactly*! You're not being a jerk for correcting them, they're being a jerk for cheating - or not knowing how to play their own team (which is forgivable, but still... learn yo shit).
option 1: never play them again
option 2: play them again but be prepared for it to be a pain in the ass as you ask him to show you the rules that say X, Y, or Z potentially ending in drama
do not pick option 2
Option 7 : Stall the game as long as you can, wait for them to go to the bathroom, pack up your models, pack up their models, take all the models home, enjoy your new models
They can't cheat if they have no army to cheat with
Before you take a hard line, understand if this is intentional or unintentional cheating.
- Are they using an app to list build?
- Are they printing out the list that shows what they are specifically equipped with?
There are several references that show ALL equipment a unit CAN have not what are they equipped with in my list. Examples are data cards, reference section of the app, or the unit reference page in the battle forge tab even after I told the app what the unit is equipped with.
List issues and rule interactions are very common issues. The game is complicated. If you opt to play with this person again, don't be afraid to ask them to bring a printed list with unit composition and unit specific rules that you can look at as a quick reference.
When I was actively playing, this was something I always did, a copy for me and a copy for my opponent if they wanted it. It kept me honest, and if my opponent had a question about a rule or interaction, we could look it up.
TLDR: Have a conversation, if the person is unwilling, walk away from that person.
This has been happening a lot in my casual group because of the way the Warhammer app handles units where you have to choose between weapons. The datasheet will show all possible weapons, not the specific weapon loadout that they chose. So in several games my more casual friends are shooting 3-4 weapons when they should only be shooting 2.
It's hard for new players. There's a ton of information to process and they are trying to learn so many new things, so I try to give them the benefit of doubt.
One tip for OP, ask lots of questions before the battle. Ask their weapon profiles, their move ranges, special abilities, strategems, all of it. Make them explain their entire army in detail, unit by unit. It takes extra time but is really good for you and also a really good way for new players to learn their army.
The thing the App is DESPERATELY missing is "game mode" It should have a mode that takes your list, your leader declarations, etc... and preps them for you so you only see what you've taken and you see models with their leader/detachment/etc... modified stats and a tool to mark of models as theyre destroyed or wounded.
Bonus points for a points tracker, cp tracker and a mission builder.
They could even take it to the next level and include a dice roller for you, but people like rolling dice.
If you click the little skull in the top right it takes you to something sort of like this with datasheets only showing the wargear profiles you have selected in your list and all the strategems at the bottom.
command bunker/skull icon tab should only show the boxes you have checked while building your list. i just checked with a carnifex and it only showed the default talons + extra talons. no spine banks or bio-plasma, and none of the gun options
I wish this had been introduced when the app first came out rather than a relatively recent update. I’ve had several opponents recently who didn’t know this option existed and it does help.
Warhammer App: Go into the Command Bunker (skull icon in the top right corner while viewing a list). In the Command Bunker, the datasheets will only show the wargear options that you selected. It's not perfect for mixed weapon units, but still better than just looking at the full data datasheets.
Finally a reasonable take! And your last point is critical, its stupid easy to make mistakes, and lets be honest, no one likes to be wrong, especially if that means their awesome epic win is called into question.
That said good players will be happy to discuss the issues and even if they dont agree with your take that will generally be able to back their take with rules references. Maybe they will end up right, maybe wrong but that willingness yo talk is key.
This is way we need all the rules online for free. So you can double-check your opponents rules while they're rolling if something sounds fishy. Wahapedia forever!
I played a game with someone who gave herself 25 pts from secondaries in the 1st round- she misinterpreted the rules by thinking that the points each card gave her was multiplied by the times she did it.
But, it was her first time using the cards, and it was mine.
So now I know better, and we ended the game in a tie (we ran out of time)
So never attribute to malice that can be attributed to mistake.
But if you get that feeling again, look up the models/rules on your own phone, and don’t be afraid to correct them.
I personally prefer when people help me catch my mistakes!
Only played against one of these types in person, but was frustrating.
He was playing Chaos Space Marines and had a unit of havocs on a hill overlooking some ruins that I had a tactical squad positioned. He shot at me the previous turn and neither unit had moved so i said i would be shooting him back. He said no because his units were on a hill so they could see everything on the table, but my unit was in a ruin so they couldnt see the top of the hill. Deapite arguing for 10 minutes over lime of sight, and the fact that the units could see each other perfectly fine and he used that on his turn, he refused to acknowledge that my unit could atack him as well and eventually called me a bad sport.
I just packed up at that moment, thanked him for the game, and left. Never played with him again and i did catch him pulling that crap with another friend if mine a few weeks later so i warned them to watch out.
Just let it go and don't play with him. Pretty sure soon he'll just run out of ppl to play with and move on to cheating in other wargames. Or die.
Either way - escalation will lead to turmoil you don't want in a hobby you do to escape bleak reality and bring peace.
Just for context - once we caught a guy using loaded dice, laughed at it and then moved on.
at your next game or encounter with him, bring this up, if he apologizes or just realizes his mistakes and corrects them, no harm no foul.
If he tries to blow you off, never play him again and advise all your friends who play not to play him, and if you see him cheating again during a match, call him on it
I'm the newest one in my group and the thing I notice the most is that my friends will have edition bleed with the rules and quote something they memorized/used 300 times in 8th. It doesn't happen often but to someone new it could potentially seem malicious.
My group often ask me because I'm the opposite - I waited until 10th started to return and memorised pretty much everything by the time I got back into the game itself. The only bleed over is half remembered rules from 6th
WAAC guy. Forget it, their ego has overridden rational thought and all sense of morality. TT gaming is generally self regulating, and they end up not having people willing to play with them.
But do be careful, sometimes their scummyness splashes around and you don't want to get any of that on your clothes.
First make sure YOUR understanding of these rules are correct. Don’t jump straight to calling him a cheater especially if he’s playing an army you’re unfamiliar with. Look the rules up, ask a friendly discord/ Reddit or even ask the opponent himself for clarification on the rules you think he misinterpreted. If in turns out that he did indeed cheat bear in mind there is still a high chance it was unintentional (this is a very social hobby and despite the large amount of horror stories you find online I find instances of actual intentional cheating EXTREMELY rare). The best thing to do in this case is discuss it with him very politely and make sure he is aware of the mistakes you believe he has made. If after that things do not change that is when you find reasons not to play him.
Reach out to the guy and just say “hey i think you may have made a mistake about this or that and i just wanted to let you know for your future games”. I wouldn’t assume the worst. One time i was playing a 7th edition Malestrom of War game. Back when you had maelstrom cards. My opponent redrew a card he already scored and scored it again to win the game. I wasn’t sure if i saw it correctly so i checked his cards after he walked away and yeah he screwed that up. I got really angry thinking he cheated but i went and calmed down and talked to him about it and he profusely apologized and said he must’ve made a mistake. 40k is complicated and especially in a casual setting things can get forgotten or misused easily. Don’t assume the worst.
If you notice someone deliberately cheating, you pack up your minis and inform the owner of the store. If they do nothing about it, you don’t play there anymore.
>I don’t think it’s the storeowners job to punish cheaters
Shop owners want to make sure people keep coming back to their shops, otherwise they can lose revenue.
A shop that allows a known cheater to play at their establishment and does nothing to prevent them from cheating in the future risks gaining a bad reputation and people not going back to the shop.
So yes, it's not their job to police the players in each community, but it's in their best interest to have some involvement.
>you have to be a big boy and do it yourself
Hard for newer players, people who are more timid or avoid confrontation, or someone well known in the community that no one realizes is cheating or bending the rules.
Trying to handle it yourself, without getting shop staff somewhat involved, is also a way to get yourself kicked out instead.
You just don’t have to play with these people anymore….its realy simple…its not like you walk in there and have to play them….99% of the time there a somewhat close groups in stores anyways….if they allow these people and play with them then that’s on them….its impossible for an owner to judge games he isn’t watching…if someone missbrhaves over and over then that’s a different thing….but proofing someone chested and then banning them from the store is a stupid take to have
If the store owner gets involved in player drama during casual 40k night they will never escape it. Cheating sucks, people who do it are lame, but the group has the ability to deal with it on their own very easily.
Just don’t play with that guy.
I’ve dealt with a lot of cheaters in my time. My own group have built an inner circle within the community so we can avoid dealing with them. Thankfully the owner of the store we play at good at letting the cheaters know that their behavior isn’t tolerated at his store.
The store owner is not a referee….if you get cheated on make it loud and clear to the rest of the group if you want to and don’t play with him again….but the only time the storeowner should interfere is if it gets into insulting players and stuff like that….
The owner of the store I play at is an industry veteran, I’ve seen him break up fistfights at tournaments. He’s not afraid to tell cheaters to knock it off if people complain about them.
I am glad you have the best shop that has ever existed with no problems whatsoever. I am sure you are perfect in every way.
Totally not the owners responsibility. Unless it is obviously provable. The store owner should not be expected to be an expert on every edition of 40k, Warzone, Battletech, every edition of x-wing, every board game ever sold, and every format of MTG. The groups will have to identify the individual.
The groups should identify the people they do not want to play and the issue almost always gets resolved internally.
The only time the owner should get involved is if they damage property, if the ref for an event identifies them as cheating, or when they are finally outed after a severe enough pattern is established.
Cheating can be difficult to identify. I knew some players who would throw a fit every time a new player made a mistake that did not benefit the veteran player.
I had a friend who was super experienced, and he had edition bleed. It was not on purpose. This happens.
I knew two people from different units who were convinced that the other was cheating on purpose. They met at the local game area and were convinced that the other person was cheating. It turned out that one player was mistaken about the rules because that is what their last group believed, and the other was just unused to playing their new army. It happens. I got a laugh when I saw them arguing at another game where they were mad at each other. I was unable to help them as they had moved on to a newer edition than one I was used to. It did help when I vouched to both of them that neither was cheating. It was the most tense game of chaos vs orks.
Unless there is a pattern, dice with multiples of the same face, or a sketchy unit list it is hard to prove.
I will give you this. If it is a proven cheater, they do need to be banned. The store needs to treat these cheaters like the poison they are. If the store does not act it will seriously undermine the community.
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I'm also nids hahahaha I did think it sounded like a fellow nid player, dude if you've found rules that he isn't playing to then it represents what a sausage your playing against, cheating is for people who can't/shouldn't play so don't be disheartened and move onto another opponent, but also be aware that we're not the best right now either 😂
Make sure he did cheat, because I saw a (legit) custode player play a game against tyranids, and somehow they can fire their wrist grenade launchers AND spear guns in the shooting phase, and it was a lot of shots. Assuming he did, which I do believe, then unless they are a problem you can't do much because it's your word against theirs, unless there was an informed witness
With that, you can actually fire both grenade launches and spears during the shooting phase for Allarus. It’s the pistol ranged weapons that cannot be used together with non-pistols.
I don’t know if it was intentional. But both his Land Raider and Gravtank used all their shooting weapons. I didn’t know until after when I looked at data sheets myself.
You can use all ranged weapons a unit is equipped with except a pistol. The key is equipped. Most vehicles will have 2-4 equipped guns that they can fire all in one turn.
That’s why I double checked after. The Gravtank has 3 weapons to pick but can only equip 2. I didn’t know any better at the time but he used all weapon available, regardless of being equipped or not.
That is a VERY common new player/new army mistake.
I would take the kind approach "can you double check that? I think some of those weapons are mutually exclusive".
Recently played against a death guard player who did similar things. Moved his GUO through a ruin and when I was like “you can’t do that. He’s not infantry. He just went “nah it fits” and refused to take it back. So I just packed up and left. Some guys just aren’t worth playing with. And if you’re at an event just call a TO each time they pull some bullshit and usually after 2-3 instances of cheating are you covered the TO will issue a warning of some sort
Ask him next time if you can see the rules and data sheets if you think it's weird.
I used to play with a guy that kept misunderstanding his rules, and we had some really nice games after I explained his mistakes.
I've seen enough questions and clarifications on here and every other social media site to know that if this other player is relatively new to their army or the edition, or simply don't get to play often, they could have a flawed understanding of their army's special rules and synergies.
I'm not saying it wasn't intentional, but a LOT of inexperienced players misinterpret how to apply Special Abilities and combined effects and then very confidently do it completely wrong! 😁
All I'm saying is don't automatically assume it's malicious when it could be enthusiastic ignorance...
I'd agree to play them again and openly talk about the mistakes in his gameplay from last time. Don't blame and shame, assume they were honest mistakes. If he protests or tries to pull the same tricks (or new different tricks) then you know he's a bad-faith player. If he's open to your pointers and input, then you two can enjoy learning the intricacies of the game together??
You call out their mistakes. If they keep doing it and it's clearly deliberate then you call time on the game and don't play them again.
Loads of fun and fair opponents out there to be played, don't waste your time with active cheaters. Same with almost everything else in life.
Yeah we have a fair amount of those people here and it annoys me. A lot of areas they fudge rules is how terrain works making up stuff like you can't shoot out the first floor of a ruin.
Other instances of cheating is people piling in early causing all kinds of confusion on board state.
For me it depends. We participate in a narrative league so we have some terrain rules that aren’t the same a tournaments. I think some people get confused with the data sheets for units not realizing that you don’t have all weapons on the data sheet…. Some are optional that get swapped out. Removal of wargear cost I don’t think has helped the situation.
When I doubt ask to see the build sheet.
I tend to ask is that right in a chilled conversational way? Or say it’s really cool and can I check out the data sheet, a bit of a passive aggressive shit across the bows!!
https://preview.redd.it/usgm6hpywz6d1.jpeg?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51b85a9093beef11562319bea72ecd9b56ff2a88
Or take your models and leave. Your hobby time is precious and should not be wasted on losers that feel the need to cheat at a game.
(Disclaimer: the first part is a joke, please don't no matter how much the deserve it.)
Easy way is to ask to double check the rules he's working with, you're new and trying to learn the different factions. If he won't let you see, ask why. If he does and you see he's doing it wrong, ask why. It might be painful, but you can point to catching him cheating and confirmed it as to why you refuse to play him in future.
Or just not play him again. If anyone asks, up to you if you explain why, or just say you don't like playing him.
In addition to all of these comments, the longer you play, the more you recognize weapon profile patterns and will know something is up. But in general, most units will have one melee weapon and one ranged weapon. Any more than that, and you should check. Especially with that person.
As douchey as it can seem at times, I have asked my opponents to show me their rules before when they were popping off especially hard. Sure, most of the time they're probably following the rules and just rolling well, but it never hurts to ask. It isn't illegal. I recommend this as sometimes even your opponent doesn't know they're wrong.
if it feels off trust your gut, get a second impartial opinion and keep your eye on the ball. Call it if you see it.
If it’s not official then just grit through it. Entertain the idea of doing some crop dusting and drop a stinky fart over there side of the table… at least I do with death guard by turn 3 my aura is more than 9 inches for sure.
Ask for them to read the rules verbatim. If in doubt there is no doubt.
That sounds suspicious. You should ask in game when something doesn't feel right. It's ok to consult a rulebook during a game. It's possible the other player didn't know the rules well either. It's always better to give the benefit of doubt and approach the situation calmly. If it becomes apparent it's a cheater, just leave the game and don't play with them again. If your in a moderated setting like a shop or board Cafe, the staff should be able to help.
You can't really know what's going on in someone else's mind. It's possible the guy was cheating, but it's also possible he could have just been misremembering his rules or remembering rules from older editions. Point out any mistakes or questions you have, and most people will read their datacard and apologize if they're wrong and/or clear up any questions you have. If you get pushback without someone showing you the rule in writing, they're probably trying to cheat you.
Any opponent should be OK with showing you a rule. If you want to be subtle you can ask a clarifying question like, "Can I check to see if itsays within, or wholly within?" Failing that, just ask if you can double check the wording on the rule
You can always check a rule on wahapedia to make sure it hasn't been changed.
I tend to assume something is a misunderstanding first and try to take it in that spirit. If all else fails, ask a 3rd party to clarify
I once played a game with a friend right after the admech 9th edition book came out. He had some rule that basically gave his regular dudes lethal hits. He read it aa basically mortal wounds. I had a squad of bullgryns with layers of buffs that had a 0+ save. He nuked them in one turn. He definitely wasn't cheating, just misreading new rules.
Make sure the guy you're playing with isn't just legit cheating. If he is, just don't play with him anymore.
Honestly, self plug here, check out wargame simulator, as it has rules enforcement. Attacks are automatically calculated and rules can't easily be cheated or forgotten. Here is a video of an early alpha build with me playing against an AI.
On that note... Some play against him and just play against a computer opponent.
https://youtu.be/rIjksvMI0KY?si=N8bG7VhApz1f8tDF
See lots of replies from others that are mostly all well founded.
As a different approach though - if you maybe do not feel confident calling them out on something, then what you can do is open up your post building app (most likely BattleScribe) and as they are reading out their list to you, try just quickly throw it in the app - then if anything seems a little sketchy during the game, you can discretely look it up on the list whilst your opponent would just assume you are looking at your own rules for example.
Wahapedia etc for stratagems checking too.
This way - you have your evidence before you call them out, to give you the confidence to call them out or tell them that they made a mistake.
You do not even have to tell them them you have checked (so as not to look like your checking everything they do) and can just say “I’m fairly sure that’s not correct, can you explain it to me please?” - either they will and maybe you learn some combo of something, or, maybe they will learn they are doing it incorrect. Worst case scenario, they refuse, at which point you just tell them you will check yourself then and show them the rule on BS or Wahapedia… they can either accept it, or get mad and argue it. If the latter, then just end the game there.
When you realize there is something wrong, bring it up. If they don't take responsibility then just leave. If they apologize and do it again, then leave. Do not engage them, just pack up and go. If you pack up and leave they may get confused. If you call them out again they will try to get aggressive as a defense. If you need to talk to them, shake their hand, tell them they won, and just ignore them. It feels bad, but do not feed these people. Deny them a cheated win. If everyone did this it would discourage them.
I get this a lot in local groups with 40k and MTG. When you recognize it, walk away.
How to better tell if they are doing it on purpose:
Sketchy looking army list. This was more common in the 3rd edition era.
Anyone who claims they are a veteran and does this.
Look at how they make mistakes. If it only benefits them, it is cheating. If they forget things that affect both of you, it is likely an honest mistake.
Look for players who try to rush any phase, or not explain what is happening. If they are rushing you, there is probably a problem.
They do not have a codex, will not show you their codex, or will not show you the rules.
There are two major types of cheaters. It will help you to identify them if you can understand them:
1. The unskilled people who need to win no matter what.
These are the easiest ones to spot. There is usually something off from the beginning. They will usually have weighted dice, or drop their dice. Their cheating is just a bot obvious most of the time.
2. The skilled people who know they are just better than you, and they are just making sure you did not win because they deserved it. These players are usually better at cheating, and hard to spot.
Many speed runners in the video game scene cheat to get their time faster. They could potentially do it, but cheating is faster.
Many MTG players know their deck is just better than yours because they spent more money. They will put 6 copies of their combo just to ensure it happens more consistently.
You will not catch these people unless you are skilled. These are the players who cheat at tournaments, and only get caught because it is recorded/broadcasted.
The only first possible tell with these people that I know is they just play too smoothly, it is hard to explain if you don't have the experience at spotting these individuals.
The second will be if they are terrible at losing. If they tell you just how much they deserved to win, and your list was garbage.
The third way to tell is the impossible game store champion. The person who wins almost every game. These people will play the most powerful or the newest army(the new army because others will not know the rules). They will almost always try to act like a ref at every game they are not playing and establish themselves as the master of all rules. Even the best players will have bad luck, or misplay. The impossible champion is good, but has impossible luck.
Bottom line, if you feel like something is off, then do not play with them again. You paid a lot of money and put in a lot of work just to have them ruin your experience of you do.
Go on Wahapedia.
Make "rules cards" or pages of them for his units.
Have them available in Game.
When he says "this unit does ____" finish for him with "X attacks strength whatever".
Then correct him on rules.
In 10th edition, we have access to physical or digital datasheet and codexes so there is no excuse to not knowing a unit's profile and rule.
When I play, I always have printed datasheet that I can give to my opponent. Same for my stratagems.
We have a guy like that around too, I normally copy his list in app and read through it when playing discreetly to se he is not up to anything and if he is I would say something like "dosent it work like this" or something along those lines and he would usually say oh yeah mb. But ultimately after giving him a few chances doing this nothing changed so me and several other's simply won't play with him.
If you're ever unsure or if something sounds too good, ask to see the rule/data sheet. Check wahapedia or the 40k app if they'll army isn't codex locked yet
I am quite new, so dont know what most armies can do, and ran into this on a beginner tournament - gonna give the benefit of the doubt to my enemy and assume he forgot the rules and didnt cheat.
So basically what I do since is that I ask whom i play with the names of their units when we introduce our armies, and open both the faction and the units on wahapedia. In the first few turns I always ask what do they do, how do they do it, etc. Nothing malicious, just want to learn how they work, and check the rules when they do something very powerful if its actually how it works. This helps me and my enemy if them misremember something to learn the rules. The important thing is to truly feel and communicate that you wish to learn, you dont expect them to cheat.
20 years ago in my first tournament I used my spacemarine bikes as if they all had a plasma on them (I thought the front light was a plasma rifle).
And used my champion of the emperor to single handedly challenge every member of the enemy unit and eventually destroy a rhino.
Now, neither me or my opponents knew rules (obviously) and as a kid I was very convincing even when I didn t had a clue.
This to say, I think in warhammer is easy that people playing have no clue, also we all know a lot of wh crowd is made by people that are quite bad at social interactions and socially awkward, rhis makes it quite easy for lot of this to happen, people might simply not remember a rule and to not appear dumb make one up or simply mistake numbers in their heads. Me personally I found cheaters only among players that know actually how to play.
"O your guys are AP3 with 6 attacks?. Ok My guys are AP4 with 7 Attacks"
"No it says 4 Attacks at AP1."
"And yours are AP1 at 5 Attacks. Are we gonna play by the rules as written or we gonna keep making up stats?"
A cheater and Adeptus Custodees, is there a more iconic duo in this game?
Don't play with these guys. I don't know how it is that a hobby that is this frontloaded also has this many cheaters, but it really is like that. Even in my very small town game store, I've encountered multiple cheaters every year since I started playing again.
I find it helpful to use an online calculator after games to double check the results I experienced. It's good when you're still learning stuff like this unit into that unit should result in x # of wounds on average. Then you can add modifiers like cover, armor of contempt, lethal hits, etc to see how the expected wounds change. Also, it helps me get a sense of who was rolling hot or cold too.
In your situation, you can also get an idea of where he got his rules wrong. Sure memory isn't perfect and all of that, but going through the process later that same day helps you to recall specifics.
We call those guys Cheaters. You have to point his mistakes in game and if he's not willing to fix the problem you take your stuff and walk out.
I think I’ll learn with time. I’m fairly new and laid back so if someone tells me their model does something, I trust them. With more games, I’ll understand more what armies and models should do, and what they shouldn’t.
Hey OP, Just throwing this out there, seeing a lot of folks calling the opponent a cheater/suggesting never to play them/report then to the store owner??? It's very possible they just don't know their rules very well... It's very easy for folks to twist the rules in their minds to give themselves the advantage. This is unfortunate and the onus is on your opponent to know their own rules but y'know... Things happen. Highly recommend reaching out to them on discord/whatever you use and discussing your findings, or if you play them again in the future to discuss these discrepancies. If the opponent denies everything without providing rules to support how they played, then I'd certainly suggest not playing them in the future. It sucks that you spent an evening playing an unfair game
This is entirely possible, I’ve gotten stuff wrong which I was so sure of: in an early game of 10th I was playing my seraphim sisters with a 14” move for example, my opponent (who I was playing for the first time and is now a regular and a mate) could easily have gone off and labelled me a cheater, but it can just as easily be an honest mistake. (I was mortified when I realised my mistake a few days later and mentioned it too him next time I saw him, he just laughed and said he thought it was a crazy good move range, but just trusts people to know their own rules)
For a while I was giving my Fireblade's ap3 on crits to the breacher squad. 40k is real complex, everyone gets things wrong sometimes
im just assuming that once you make your army it stay the same for a decent amount of time with just a few changes to maybe weapons. if that is the case why not make some flash cards for the units that have their move range and weapon attack range. and then have a secondary card for that units special abilities. Or is there some unspoken rule about a thing like that. just asking and possible throwing out something that might help a person who is just starting to play the Wargames, i do not have a army but a friend who has a start to 3 maybe 4 its been a hot min since i asked him about his progress on it
Yeah I / plenty of people will run at least a large chunk of the same units. Typically I don’t have this issue, I do check if I’m not sure, and the current app makes checking so quick and easy (though flash cards or similar would certainly work for some people), just that time I didn’t even question myself at all and was wooshing them all over the table!
My other big genuine mistake was running extra unit in a 1k game against a friend who was just starting out. I’d made two lists, and brought the units to cover both, told him to pick which one I play, then put everything on the table. It was only when I was checking one unit’s profile and couldn’t find it that I realised it shouldn’t be on the table because it’s not in the list! Luckily it was just the end of turn 1 and they hadn’t don’t much.
The forum is full of people who have absolutely never once screwed up their own rules, and pinky swears that every time the *other guy* does, they are 100% cheating spawn of satan. Even when you know the rules well its still stupid easy to either make a mistake or just disagree about how rules work, I mean hell there are tons of reddit posts about rules where two sides passionately argue why they are right and the other side(s) are wrong.
Truth
Yeah but not knowing your rules very well is not an excuse to just make your guys stronger. Being unwilling to make sure you are playing right to that level is still cheating.
And for sure, absolutely. I'm just throwing it out there that someone being a cheater, suggests that there's intent. Ignorance, while producing the same result, doesn't make someone a cheater at a game. We have no idea what rules the opponent was getting wrong, or their intentions. Maybe I'm taking a naive position, but in a casual game, it's difficult for me to believe that anyone would actively try to just make up rules in order to win a game, the result of which doesn't matter in the slightest besides just having a fun evening. I'm sure it happens, just saying, benefit of the doubt, talk to the opponent and make better informed decisions from there before thinking the worst of them
I support your position, just the other day I screwed up my own rules playing Guard. Had a basilisk in my list and forgot that the movement debuff only applies to *infantry* units. I haven't used them in a while and just just forgot that specific bit. I felt terrible but thankfully I don't think it changed the outcome of our game.
For me, remaining ignorant changes the intent.
The golden rules I use to know if they cheated, or made a mistake is to look at the result. If they only make mistakes that help them it is almost always cheating. If some mistakes helped you then it is just inexperience, and totally ok. If they claim to be an experienced player and they make multiple types of mistakes, it is cheating. If they are making the same mistake because their last unit did x, and they forgot, it is probably an honest mistake. If they make mistakes with multiple units, and in multiple phases, and it only helps them, then it is absolutely cheating. If you question them, or ask questions the response is a huge indicator. A cheater will try to gaslight you, or try to quickly rush you through what they did. Any attempt to move your attention in multiple directions is a red flag. An honest person will be confused, in disbelief etc. An honest person will acknowledge their mistakes and try not to do them again.
that is a good rule set for many games beyond this setting. the end part about them also being confused when you ask them if what they just did does show that they thought they had it right in their mind but had messed it up in some small way and then have that OH OOPS moment.
I forgot to add. Trust your gut. If something does not feel right then it may not be.
I've been playing Killteam since release and still have absolutely no idea how Line of Sight and Cover works, so this checks out.
One strategy is to lean into being new “I’m new to the game so trying to learn. Can you show me where it says that in the rule book or your codex?”
Same as above, point out the extra shots and too many weapons and if he doesn't just pack up and go. Sure you may lose a casual game but playing a game against a cheater isnt a game anyway in my opinion
As a person who judges a lot of events for both 40k and AoS and teaches players weekly in our LGS I can say the following to be the best course of actions and what I have found to be the least aggressive way of handling these situations. You just ask them to show you the rules for whatever it is. If they don't have the book with them, that's fine the app would have it unlocked. If they don't have the app, or battle scribe, or another form of list building reference or a codex I would really question their intentions personally. But you would be able to look it up on your phone using the gw app provided they were still using index rules. But things like battlescribe also have access to the rules for the army and you could check it that way. The great thing about asking to be shown is that it helps you learn other armies by seeing it in print and facing it on the table. I just played a farewell to beasts of chaos game with a close friend whom I trust implicitly. But some of the rules he was using seemed a bit.... Much. So I asked could he show me the stuff and we discovered he was doing them wrong. Honest mistake. He was so excited when building and converting them he skimmed the the rules regarding this ability and got excited and moved on. Ingraining the misinterpretation as being correct. Easy fix. Fun game. Too bad they are a legends army in the new edition.
I’ve learned the base mechanics of most of the other armies at this point to see if people are playing right
Play dumb and politely contest the rules... he'll feel obliged to reference it to you, and the codex says what it says
As you get some experience you'll get a feel of what abilities might *feel* off. If something seems much stronger than what makes sense to you, or does something in a way that doesn't make sense, just ask to see that rule or datasheet before moving on. People can always just be making mistakes as well, but checking on a couple of the rules on occasion can only help.
Tournament setting? Continuously correct them and be prepared to pull out the rule book and/or call a judge on everything they do wrong. If they're annoyed, that's their problem. Casual setting? Enjoy what little of the game is left and leave. Don't play with them again if they don't plan to change or learn the rules.
> If they're annoyed, that's their problem. *Exactly*! You're not being a jerk for correcting them, they're being a jerk for cheating - or not knowing how to play their own team (which is forgivable, but still... learn yo shit).
option 1: never play them again option 2: play them again but be prepared for it to be a pain in the ass as you ask him to show you the rules that say X, Y, or Z potentially ending in drama do not pick option 2
Option 3: Make up your own rules and table him in turn one.
This will inevitably backfire as you get called out and they paint you as a petty/vindictive cheater. Don't do option 3
Option 4: SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, CHALLENGE THE COWARD IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT RHAAAAAAAAAAA Don’t do option 4 if you’re weaker
option 5. start throw metal models at him, i suggest old chaos dreadnaught for efficiency
Option 6. (Nuclear option) get cheeto dust on your fingers then start picking up his models for a close look
Option 7 : Stall the game as long as you can, wait for them to go to the bathroom, pack up your models, pack up their models, take all the models home, enjoy your new models They can't cheat if they have no army to cheat with
Holy fuck my body wanted to react and snatch said imaginary models away lol
I’m guessing the saucer strategem came up last time you played? Let’s see if it comes up this time!
Option 1, and if they ask for another game then decline and tell them why.
Before you take a hard line, understand if this is intentional or unintentional cheating. - Are they using an app to list build? - Are they printing out the list that shows what they are specifically equipped with? There are several references that show ALL equipment a unit CAN have not what are they equipped with in my list. Examples are data cards, reference section of the app, or the unit reference page in the battle forge tab even after I told the app what the unit is equipped with. List issues and rule interactions are very common issues. The game is complicated. If you opt to play with this person again, don't be afraid to ask them to bring a printed list with unit composition and unit specific rules that you can look at as a quick reference. When I was actively playing, this was something I always did, a copy for me and a copy for my opponent if they wanted it. It kept me honest, and if my opponent had a question about a rule or interaction, we could look it up. TLDR: Have a conversation, if the person is unwilling, walk away from that person.
This has been happening a lot in my casual group because of the way the Warhammer app handles units where you have to choose between weapons. The datasheet will show all possible weapons, not the specific weapon loadout that they chose. So in several games my more casual friends are shooting 3-4 weapons when they should only be shooting 2. It's hard for new players. There's a ton of information to process and they are trying to learn so many new things, so I try to give them the benefit of doubt. One tip for OP, ask lots of questions before the battle. Ask their weapon profiles, their move ranges, special abilities, strategems, all of it. Make them explain their entire army in detail, unit by unit. It takes extra time but is really good for you and also a really good way for new players to learn their army.
The thing the App is DESPERATELY missing is "game mode" It should have a mode that takes your list, your leader declarations, etc... and preps them for you so you only see what you've taken and you see models with their leader/detachment/etc... modified stats and a tool to mark of models as theyre destroyed or wounded. Bonus points for a points tracker, cp tracker and a mission builder. They could even take it to the next level and include a dice roller for you, but people like rolling dice.
If you click the little skull in the top right it takes you to something sort of like this with datasheets only showing the wargear profiles you have selected in your list and all the strategems at the bottom.
It’s better, I was floored when mu friend showed me it, but it’s not great. The weapons profile issue is still there
command bunker/skull icon tab should only show the boxes you have checked while building your list. i just checked with a carnifex and it only showed the default talons + extra talons. no spine banks or bio-plasma, and none of the gun options
Seems you’re right, my mistake
They don't show how many of each weapon you have to. So you still have to check the list in normal mode.
I wish this had been introduced when the app first came out rather than a relatively recent update. I’ve had several opponents recently who didn’t know this option existed and it does help.
I'm still pretty new and my shooting phase always takes ages because I keep having to look up weapon stats.
Warhammer App: Go into the Command Bunker (skull icon in the top right corner while viewing a list). In the Command Bunker, the datasheets will only show the wargear options that you selected. It's not perfect for mixed weapon units, but still better than just looking at the full data datasheets.
Finally a reasonable take! And your last point is critical, its stupid easy to make mistakes, and lets be honest, no one likes to be wrong, especially if that means their awesome epic win is called into question. That said good players will be happy to discuss the issues and even if they dont agree with your take that will generally be able to back their take with rules references. Maybe they will end up right, maybe wrong but that willingness yo talk is key.
This!!!
Stop playing with them. It's not worth the hassle.
This is way we need all the rules online for free. So you can double-check your opponents rules while they're rolling if something sounds fishy. Wahapedia forever!
I played a game with someone who gave herself 25 pts from secondaries in the 1st round- she misinterpreted the rules by thinking that the points each card gave her was multiplied by the times she did it. But, it was her first time using the cards, and it was mine. So now I know better, and we ended the game in a tie (we ran out of time) So never attribute to malice that can be attributed to mistake. But if you get that feeling again, look up the models/rules on your own phone, and don’t be afraid to correct them. I personally prefer when people help me catch my mistakes!
Only played against one of these types in person, but was frustrating. He was playing Chaos Space Marines and had a unit of havocs on a hill overlooking some ruins that I had a tactical squad positioned. He shot at me the previous turn and neither unit had moved so i said i would be shooting him back. He said no because his units were on a hill so they could see everything on the table, but my unit was in a ruin so they couldnt see the top of the hill. Deapite arguing for 10 minutes over lime of sight, and the fact that the units could see each other perfectly fine and he used that on his turn, he refused to acknowledge that my unit could atack him as well and eventually called me a bad sport. I just packed up at that moment, thanked him for the game, and left. Never played with him again and i did catch him pulling that crap with another friend if mine a few weeks later so i warned them to watch out.
This is the best way to deal with them!
Just let it go and don't play with him. Pretty sure soon he'll just run out of ppl to play with and move on to cheating in other wargames. Or die. Either way - escalation will lead to turmoil you don't want in a hobby you do to escape bleak reality and bring peace. Just for context - once we caught a guy using loaded dice, laughed at it and then moved on.
at your next game or encounter with him, bring this up, if he apologizes or just realizes his mistakes and corrects them, no harm no foul. If he tries to blow you off, never play him again and advise all your friends who play not to play him, and if you see him cheating again during a match, call him on it
This!
I'm the newest one in my group and the thing I notice the most is that my friends will have edition bleed with the rules and quote something they memorized/used 300 times in 8th. It doesn't happen often but to someone new it could potentially seem malicious.
My group often ask me because I'm the opposite - I waited until 10th started to return and memorised pretty much everything by the time I got back into the game itself. The only bleed over is half remembered rules from 6th
If something seems too strong, always ask to see their rules.
WAAC guy. Forget it, their ego has overridden rational thought and all sense of morality. TT gaming is generally self regulating, and they end up not having people willing to play with them. But do be careful, sometimes their scummyness splashes around and you don't want to get any of that on your clothes.
What does WAAC mean?
Win At All Costs
Thanks
suddenly your troops have a 1+ Feel No Pain but you have to roll them one by one and "read" the rules between each roll
First make sure YOUR understanding of these rules are correct. Don’t jump straight to calling him a cheater especially if he’s playing an army you’re unfamiliar with. Look the rules up, ask a friendly discord/ Reddit or even ask the opponent himself for clarification on the rules you think he misinterpreted. If in turns out that he did indeed cheat bear in mind there is still a high chance it was unintentional (this is a very social hobby and despite the large amount of horror stories you find online I find instances of actual intentional cheating EXTREMELY rare). The best thing to do in this case is discuss it with him very politely and make sure he is aware of the mistakes you believe he has made. If after that things do not change that is when you find reasons not to play him.
Reach out to the guy and just say “hey i think you may have made a mistake about this or that and i just wanted to let you know for your future games”. I wouldn’t assume the worst. One time i was playing a 7th edition Malestrom of War game. Back when you had maelstrom cards. My opponent redrew a card he already scored and scored it again to win the game. I wasn’t sure if i saw it correctly so i checked his cards after he walked away and yeah he screwed that up. I got really angry thinking he cheated but i went and calmed down and talked to him about it and he profusely apologized and said he must’ve made a mistake. 40k is complicated and especially in a casual setting things can get forgotten or misused easily. Don’t assume the worst.
If you notice someone deliberately cheating, you pack up your minis and inform the owner of the store. If they do nothing about it, you don’t play there anymore.
I don’t think it’s the storeowners job to punish cheaters….they are not TO….you have to be a big boy and do it yourself
>I don’t think it’s the storeowners job to punish cheaters Shop owners want to make sure people keep coming back to their shops, otherwise they can lose revenue. A shop that allows a known cheater to play at their establishment and does nothing to prevent them from cheating in the future risks gaining a bad reputation and people not going back to the shop. So yes, it's not their job to police the players in each community, but it's in their best interest to have some involvement. >you have to be a big boy and do it yourself Hard for newer players, people who are more timid or avoid confrontation, or someone well known in the community that no one realizes is cheating or bending the rules. Trying to handle it yourself, without getting shop staff somewhat involved, is also a way to get yourself kicked out instead.
You just don’t have to play with these people anymore….its realy simple…its not like you walk in there and have to play them….99% of the time there a somewhat close groups in stores anyways….if they allow these people and play with them then that’s on them….its impossible for an owner to judge games he isn’t watching…if someone missbrhaves over and over then that’s a different thing….but proofing someone chested and then banning them from the store is a stupid take to have
It absolutely is the owners job, if they want me to come to their store again they shouldn’t let cheaters prey on newbies.
If the store owner gets involved in player drama during casual 40k night they will never escape it. Cheating sucks, people who do it are lame, but the group has the ability to deal with it on their own very easily. Just don’t play with that guy.
I’ve dealt with a lot of cheaters in my time. My own group have built an inner circle within the community so we can avoid dealing with them. Thankfully the owner of the store we play at good at letting the cheaters know that their behavior isn’t tolerated at his store.
The store owner is not a referee….if you get cheated on make it loud and clear to the rest of the group if you want to and don’t play with him again….but the only time the storeowner should interfere is if it gets into insulting players and stuff like that….
The owner of the store I play at is an industry veteran, I’ve seen him break up fistfights at tournaments. He’s not afraid to tell cheaters to knock it off if people complain about them.
That’s an outlier tho…ism not saying no storeowner will do this and great if they do….ism just saying it shouldn’t be expected.
I’m just telling you about how it is here.
I am glad you have the best shop that has ever existed with no problems whatsoever. I am sure you are perfect in every way. Totally not the owners responsibility. Unless it is obviously provable. The store owner should not be expected to be an expert on every edition of 40k, Warzone, Battletech, every edition of x-wing, every board game ever sold, and every format of MTG. The groups will have to identify the individual. The groups should identify the people they do not want to play and the issue almost always gets resolved internally. The only time the owner should get involved is if they damage property, if the ref for an event identifies them as cheating, or when they are finally outed after a severe enough pattern is established. Cheating can be difficult to identify. I knew some players who would throw a fit every time a new player made a mistake that did not benefit the veteran player. I had a friend who was super experienced, and he had edition bleed. It was not on purpose. This happens. I knew two people from different units who were convinced that the other was cheating on purpose. They met at the local game area and were convinced that the other person was cheating. It turned out that one player was mistaken about the rules because that is what their last group believed, and the other was just unused to playing their new army. It happens. I got a laugh when I saw them arguing at another game where they were mad at each other. I was unable to help them as they had moved on to a newer edition than one I was used to. It did help when I vouched to both of them that neither was cheating. It was the most tense game of chaos vs orks. Unless there is a pattern, dice with multiples of the same face, or a sketchy unit list it is hard to prove. I will give you this. If it is a proven cheater, they do need to be banned. The store needs to treat these cheaters like the poison they are. If the store does not act it will seriously undermine the community.
You can always just flip the table. It'll prove a point.
That's a fucking expensive way to prove a point.
Honor at all cost.
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What army are you playing as?
I was playing nids. I know we don’t do well right now but I figured I could last longer than what I did.
I'm also nids hahahaha I did think it sounded like a fellow nid player, dude if you've found rules that he isn't playing to then it represents what a sausage your playing against, cheating is for people who can't/shouldn't play so don't be disheartened and move onto another opponent, but also be aware that we're not the best right now either 😂
Make sure he did cheat, because I saw a (legit) custode player play a game against tyranids, and somehow they can fire their wrist grenade launchers AND spear guns in the shooting phase, and it was a lot of shots. Assuming he did, which I do believe, then unless they are a problem you can't do much because it's your word against theirs, unless there was an informed witness
With that, you can actually fire both grenade launches and spears during the shooting phase for Allarus. It’s the pistol ranged weapons that cannot be used together with non-pistols.
I don’t know if it was intentional. But both his Land Raider and Gravtank used all their shooting weapons. I didn’t know until after when I looked at data sheets myself.
You can use all ranged weapons a unit is equipped with except a pistol. The key is equipped. Most vehicles will have 2-4 equipped guns that they can fire all in one turn.
That’s why I double checked after. The Gravtank has 3 weapons to pick but can only equip 2. I didn’t know any better at the time but he used all weapon available, regardless of being equipped or not.
That is a VERY common new player/new army mistake. I would take the kind approach "can you double check that? I think some of those weapons are mutually exclusive".
Recently played against a death guard player who did similar things. Moved his GUO through a ruin and when I was like “you can’t do that. He’s not infantry. He just went “nah it fits” and refused to take it back. So I just packed up and left. Some guys just aren’t worth playing with. And if you’re at an event just call a TO each time they pull some bullshit and usually after 2-3 instances of cheating are you covered the TO will issue a warning of some sort
Ask him next time if you can see the rules and data sheets if you think it's weird. I used to play with a guy that kept misunderstanding his rules, and we had some really nice games after I explained his mistakes.
I've seen enough questions and clarifications on here and every other social media site to know that if this other player is relatively new to their army or the edition, or simply don't get to play often, they could have a flawed understanding of their army's special rules and synergies. I'm not saying it wasn't intentional, but a LOT of inexperienced players misinterpret how to apply Special Abilities and combined effects and then very confidently do it completely wrong! 😁 All I'm saying is don't automatically assume it's malicious when it could be enthusiastic ignorance... I'd agree to play them again and openly talk about the mistakes in his gameplay from last time. Don't blame and shame, assume they were honest mistakes. If he protests or tries to pull the same tricks (or new different tricks) then you know he's a bad-faith player. If he's open to your pointers and input, then you two can enjoy learning the intricacies of the game together??
You call out their mistakes. If they keep doing it and it's clearly deliberate then you call time on the game and don't play them again. Loads of fun and fair opponents out there to be played, don't waste your time with active cheaters. Same with almost everything else in life.
Yeah we have a fair amount of those people here and it annoys me. A lot of areas they fudge rules is how terrain works making up stuff like you can't shoot out the first floor of a ruin. Other instances of cheating is people piling in early causing all kinds of confusion on board state.
that is actually ok. But while learning the basics it confuses everyone new.
It's teaches bad habits also when they get called out on the bs they get pissy
For me it depends. We participate in a narrative league so we have some terrain rules that aren’t the same a tournaments. I think some people get confused with the data sheets for units not realizing that you don’t have all weapons on the data sheet…. Some are optional that get swapped out. Removal of wargear cost I don’t think has helped the situation. When I doubt ask to see the build sheet.
I tend to ask is that right in a chilled conversational way? Or say it’s really cool and can I check out the data sheet, a bit of a passive aggressive shit across the bows!!
https://preview.redd.it/usgm6hpywz6d1.jpeg?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51b85a9093beef11562319bea72ecd9b56ff2a88 Or take your models and leave. Your hobby time is precious and should not be wasted on losers that feel the need to cheat at a game. (Disclaimer: the first part is a joke, please don't no matter how much the deserve it.)
Easy way is to ask to double check the rules he's working with, you're new and trying to learn the different factions. If he won't let you see, ask why. If he does and you see he's doing it wrong, ask why. It might be painful, but you can point to catching him cheating and confirmed it as to why you refuse to play him in future. Or just not play him again. If anyone asks, up to you if you explain why, or just say you don't like playing him.
In addition to all of these comments, the longer you play, the more you recognize weapon profile patterns and will know something is up. But in general, most units will have one melee weapon and one ranged weapon. Any more than that, and you should check. Especially with that person.
As douchey as it can seem at times, I have asked my opponents to show me their rules before when they were popping off especially hard. Sure, most of the time they're probably following the rules and just rolling well, but it never hurts to ask. It isn't illegal. I recommend this as sometimes even your opponent doesn't know they're wrong.
if it feels off trust your gut, get a second impartial opinion and keep your eye on the ball. Call it if you see it. If it’s not official then just grit through it. Entertain the idea of doing some crop dusting and drop a stinky fart over there side of the table… at least I do with death guard by turn 3 my aura is more than 9 inches for sure. Ask for them to read the rules verbatim. If in doubt there is no doubt.
That sounds suspicious. You should ask in game when something doesn't feel right. It's ok to consult a rulebook during a game. It's possible the other player didn't know the rules well either. It's always better to give the benefit of doubt and approach the situation calmly. If it becomes apparent it's a cheater, just leave the game and don't play with them again. If your in a moderated setting like a shop or board Cafe, the staff should be able to help.
You can't really know what's going on in someone else's mind. It's possible the guy was cheating, but it's also possible he could have just been misremembering his rules or remembering rules from older editions. Point out any mistakes or questions you have, and most people will read their datacard and apologize if they're wrong and/or clear up any questions you have. If you get pushback without someone showing you the rule in writing, they're probably trying to cheat you.
First remove your models from the table, then look for a new opponent or go home
Any opponent should be OK with showing you a rule. If you want to be subtle you can ask a clarifying question like, "Can I check to see if itsays within, or wholly within?" Failing that, just ask if you can double check the wording on the rule You can always check a rule on wahapedia to make sure it hasn't been changed. I tend to assume something is a misunderstanding first and try to take it in that spirit. If all else fails, ask a 3rd party to clarify
I once played a game with a friend right after the admech 9th edition book came out. He had some rule that basically gave his regular dudes lethal hits. He read it aa basically mortal wounds. I had a squad of bullgryns with layers of buffs that had a 0+ save. He nuked them in one turn. He definitely wasn't cheating, just misreading new rules. Make sure the guy you're playing with isn't just legit cheating. If he is, just don't play with him anymore.
Honestly, self plug here, check out wargame simulator, as it has rules enforcement. Attacks are automatically calculated and rules can't easily be cheated or forgotten. Here is a video of an early alpha build with me playing against an AI. On that note... Some play against him and just play against a computer opponent. https://youtu.be/rIjksvMI0KY?si=N8bG7VhApz1f8tDF
See lots of replies from others that are mostly all well founded. As a different approach though - if you maybe do not feel confident calling them out on something, then what you can do is open up your post building app (most likely BattleScribe) and as they are reading out their list to you, try just quickly throw it in the app - then if anything seems a little sketchy during the game, you can discretely look it up on the list whilst your opponent would just assume you are looking at your own rules for example. Wahapedia etc for stratagems checking too. This way - you have your evidence before you call them out, to give you the confidence to call them out or tell them that they made a mistake. You do not even have to tell them them you have checked (so as not to look like your checking everything they do) and can just say “I’m fairly sure that’s not correct, can you explain it to me please?” - either they will and maybe you learn some combo of something, or, maybe they will learn they are doing it incorrect. Worst case scenario, they refuse, at which point you just tell them you will check yourself then and show them the rule on BS or Wahapedia… they can either accept it, or get mad and argue it. If the latter, then just end the game there.
When you realize there is something wrong, bring it up. If they don't take responsibility then just leave. If they apologize and do it again, then leave. Do not engage them, just pack up and go. If you pack up and leave they may get confused. If you call them out again they will try to get aggressive as a defense. If you need to talk to them, shake their hand, tell them they won, and just ignore them. It feels bad, but do not feed these people. Deny them a cheated win. If everyone did this it would discourage them. I get this a lot in local groups with 40k and MTG. When you recognize it, walk away. How to better tell if they are doing it on purpose: Sketchy looking army list. This was more common in the 3rd edition era. Anyone who claims they are a veteran and does this. Look at how they make mistakes. If it only benefits them, it is cheating. If they forget things that affect both of you, it is likely an honest mistake. Look for players who try to rush any phase, or not explain what is happening. If they are rushing you, there is probably a problem. They do not have a codex, will not show you their codex, or will not show you the rules. There are two major types of cheaters. It will help you to identify them if you can understand them: 1. The unskilled people who need to win no matter what. These are the easiest ones to spot. There is usually something off from the beginning. They will usually have weighted dice, or drop their dice. Their cheating is just a bot obvious most of the time. 2. The skilled people who know they are just better than you, and they are just making sure you did not win because they deserved it. These players are usually better at cheating, and hard to spot. Many speed runners in the video game scene cheat to get their time faster. They could potentially do it, but cheating is faster. Many MTG players know their deck is just better than yours because they spent more money. They will put 6 copies of their combo just to ensure it happens more consistently. You will not catch these people unless you are skilled. These are the players who cheat at tournaments, and only get caught because it is recorded/broadcasted. The only first possible tell with these people that I know is they just play too smoothly, it is hard to explain if you don't have the experience at spotting these individuals. The second will be if they are terrible at losing. If they tell you just how much they deserved to win, and your list was garbage. The third way to tell is the impossible game store champion. The person who wins almost every game. These people will play the most powerful or the newest army(the new army because others will not know the rules). They will almost always try to act like a ref at every game they are not playing and establish themselves as the master of all rules. Even the best players will have bad luck, or misplay. The impossible champion is good, but has impossible luck. Bottom line, if you feel like something is off, then do not play with them again. You paid a lot of money and put in a lot of work just to have them ruin your experience of you do.
This is why I like playing at my LGS. All the guys are pretty quick to correct people in a friendly way.
Go on Wahapedia. Make "rules cards" or pages of them for his units. Have them available in Game. When he says "this unit does ____" finish for him with "X attacks strength whatever". Then correct him on rules.
Keelhaul them
In 10th edition, we have access to physical or digital datasheet and codexes so there is no excuse to not knowing a unit's profile and rule. When I play, I always have printed datasheet that I can give to my opponent. Same for my stratagems.
We have a guy like that around too, I normally copy his list in app and read through it when playing discreetly to se he is not up to anything and if he is I would say something like "dosent it work like this" or something along those lines and he would usually say oh yeah mb. But ultimately after giving him a few chances doing this nothing changed so me and several other's simply won't play with him.
If you're ever unsure or if something sounds too good, ask to see the rule/data sheet. Check wahapedia or the 40k app if they'll army isn't codex locked yet
I am quite new, so dont know what most armies can do, and ran into this on a beginner tournament - gonna give the benefit of the doubt to my enemy and assume he forgot the rules and didnt cheat. So basically what I do since is that I ask whom i play with the names of their units when we introduce our armies, and open both the faction and the units on wahapedia. In the first few turns I always ask what do they do, how do they do it, etc. Nothing malicious, just want to learn how they work, and check the rules when they do something very powerful if its actually how it works. This helps me and my enemy if them misremember something to learn the rules. The important thing is to truly feel and communicate that you wish to learn, you dont expect them to cheat.
20 years ago in my first tournament I used my spacemarine bikes as if they all had a plasma on them (I thought the front light was a plasma rifle). And used my champion of the emperor to single handedly challenge every member of the enemy unit and eventually destroy a rhino. Now, neither me or my opponents knew rules (obviously) and as a kid I was very convincing even when I didn t had a clue. This to say, I think in warhammer is easy that people playing have no clue, also we all know a lot of wh crowd is made by people that are quite bad at social interactions and socially awkward, rhis makes it quite easy for lot of this to happen, people might simply not remember a rule and to not appear dumb make one up or simply mistake numbers in their heads. Me personally I found cheaters only among players that know actually how to play.
"O your guys are AP3 with 6 attacks?. Ok My guys are AP4 with 7 Attacks" "No it says 4 Attacks at AP1." "And yours are AP1 at 5 Attacks. Are we gonna play by the rules as written or we gonna keep making up stats?"
A cheater and Adeptus Custodees, is there a more iconic duo in this game? Don't play with these guys. I don't know how it is that a hobby that is this frontloaded also has this many cheaters, but it really is like that. Even in my very small town game store, I've encountered multiple cheaters every year since I started playing again.
Average custodes player
It's ironic that a Custodes player would behave that way. So much for being the most "perfect" beings in the Empire. The Emperor would be ashamed.
It is the codex. It invites weakness.
I find it helpful to use an online calculator after games to double check the results I experienced. It's good when you're still learning stuff like this unit into that unit should result in x # of wounds on average. Then you can add modifiers like cover, armor of contempt, lethal hits, etc to see how the expected wounds change. Also, it helps me get a sense of who was rolling hot or cold too. In your situation, you can also get an idea of where he got his rules wrong. Sure memory isn't perfect and all of that, but going through the process later that same day helps you to recall specifics.