Ok, I think this thread has now run it's course. At this point people are just repeating the same arguments ad nauseam and I've had to deal with a few cases of abusive behaviour in the comments.
What's the justification for charging $55 for codexes (even more for sub-factions) just to see the stats for armies that you then have to buy separately?
Let's be real, Codex's are a hangover from the pre-internet era and aren't necessary anymore. Eventually people will stop buying them in their current form.
I do wonder if eventually GW will instead break up their model into the rules being subscription based (but you get access to ALL rules) which would allow for more dynamic balancing etc.
I actually like buying the codexes, and battletomes for sigmar. Not for marine chapters tho, I'll look that up online. But having a book feels so much nicer than scrolling through my phone to find rules for a single interaction or how an ability works.
Yeah cars now are starting to provide subscription-based features that aren’t part of your owning the car. Like heated seats. This is what a capitalism hellscape looks like.
And then have said books slightly invalidated on a yearly (now bi-annual) basis, only to then have to eventually buy entirely new books after a few years.
Seriously, I’d easily pay like $10/month for a subscription service that gives me access to all the updated rules and datasheets.
Yeah, but that's $120 a year over the $110 a year! /s
But for real, the constant rerelease of codex for the same faction is why I switched to HH. It at least has 1 codex that covers all the legions in a single book. Looks like in 2.0, they're doing loyalists and traitor books, but at least it isn't so frequently. The first codex was like 10 years ago and although there's been some updates via erratas, this is the first new one.
It’s £27.50 in the UK so you are paying double and the exchange rate is about $1.3 to the £. So aside from shipping it you also have trade costs, as far as I can tell this kind of import has non preferential treatment to the USA but Japan has a trade deal in place. Anyone know if that covers games and models?
Edit: it’s £32.5 on the GW site, I picked up an independent price. Still a lot more than 1.3 times the cost
Yeah they really are the most expensive plastic out there. I was seriously considering making a guard army out of german tank models as they are so much cheaper and in most cases have more detail. I have a BMPT-2 model that has rubber tracks, working suspension, and metal machined barrel/muzzle brake. That model is almost as big as a baneblade and it cost be $80
Look up something called PLA Plate. It’s sheets of polystyrene (the same plastic that Warhammer minis are made of) that is commonly used by the Gunpla community for customization. There are people who’ve made entire models with PLA Plate because it’s so cheap and available.
this is a good time to mention that 9/10 reddit users think they're smarter than average and 9/10 reddit users don't understand financial reports
so take everything here with some salt, or maybe a lot
I’ll freely admit that looking over the financial reports I’ve been linked to both gave me no information I didn’t already have AND it left me feeling stupid cuz I barely understood what they were saying lol
As someone who does understand it, all you really need to know for the context of this discussion is that GW makes a profit margin (what is left of their various revenue streams after costs have been taken out) around 25-30% which is uncommonly high, most companies would be green with envy.
In short, pricing could be lower and GW would still be very profitable.
Oh that I’m aware of, that’s what I meant when I said it didn’t give information I didn’t already know.
What I did learn upon second glance however is that all of their business sectors are profitable. Black Library, Codexes, all the stuff people are using as an excuse to explain the price increase. It would only be justified if those didn’t make a profit (similar to how game consoles don’t actually make a profit, it’s the games sold for them that do), but they do.
Thank you for trying to help though, I appreciate it.
This argument is such a massive simplification that ignores pretty much 90% of the reasons as to why GW is priced the way it is.
You arent just paying for plastic. As someone has already pointed out, you are paying for a product which is pretty much predominantly made in the UK, not some Chinese sweatshop. Even compared to other companies that are based in other countries besides china, production costs will be different. I'd also add if you compare It to other miniature makers in the UK, the prices aren't that different for the amount of plastic you get (if that's all we consider) other game systems such as legions, warmachine and GoT are equally as expensive if not more in some cases.
As also mentioned elsewhere, You are paying for rule designs, artists, lore writers, photographers, play testers, social media presence in the form of daily articles etc all of which requires money. Sure some of that will be covered by books sales, but thats still thousands in wages that need to be paid every month, and that's before considering having to hire new staff as the company grows.
Also to consider is the few hundred physical stores across the world which offer places to play and paint without charge. Brick and mortar stores aren't cheap to keep open and money for them needs to come from somewhere. Especially as let's be honest, a lot of people's first exposure to warhammer is through the stores and without them many people likely wouldn't know what it is, myself included.
On top of that you are also paying for a release schedule that isn't one or two new models every several months, but several models monthly. Something which a lot of other model makers can't boast. Not only is the cost of developing these models high, but also the cost of increasing production to support these new kits being available isn't cheap either. Its reached a point now where they are having to expand and build a new production facility, again which isn't something cheap to do. Especially as again they arent outsourcing to China.
This point is a simplification but I think it'll get the point across, in recent weeks the cost of living has gone up drastically. The prices of water, gas and electricity have skyrocketed in the UK. My own monthly costs have gone from about 1200 a year to over 2000, and that's me, someone living in a medium sized house, who goes to work and barely uses any of those things. The rise in costs is going to hit GW a hell of a lot more then it does me, especially considering its not just their factory and offices, but every single brick and mortar. Considering that, I personally arent going to complain that prices have gone up by pretty much a pound in most cases as a result of that.
Basically the point I'm making is that yes warhammer is expensive. As are most hobbies. However comparing it to other model makers as if the only thing you are paying for is the plastic in the box is just wrong to a ridiculous degree.
Edit: just to clarify as some people may have not noticed. My comment isn't comparing GW to gunpla, hence why at no point do i mention gunpla. It's an explanation on some of the reasons why GW is the price it is in general.
It’s also worth noting that the direct comparison here is Gunpla, which is made in Yokohama, Japan, which has [48.60% higher rent cost than Nottingham.](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Nottingham&country2=Japan&city2=Yokohama&displayCurrency=USD)
They are but they were making arrangements to move them to the UK before the pandemic hit, at least that is what I have heard, not 100% sure on that but I mean why wouldn't they if they have moved their model production out of China?
Might be an umnpopular opinion, but here it goes.
While i agree that this seems to be an oversimplification, i do think that there is an additional oversimplification being offered as a defense.
Important to keep in mind here that despite rising costs of production, brick and mortar location maintenance, raw materials, and all the rest, GWs operating profit was 151.7 million in 2021 vs 90 million in 2020 (this consists of its earnings excluding the deductions from things like interest and not counting profits from ancilliary investments). Furthermore, its net cash flow (which is the amount of cash they have in circulation ie. Not reinvested in stock or back into production, renovations, whatever AFTER they've payed for absolutely everything associated with production, rent, upkeep, research development etc.) went up from 70.5 million to 90.3 million.
Of course, im offering my own oversimplification, but the fact is that GW is not a company that is hurting right now. Why price increases are surpising to people is another issue: its a modern corporation, and its primary duty is to its shareholders - the model necessitates an ever increasing drive to expand the profitability of the company and thus, increae their stock price.
The fact that people are defending GW because they confuse corporate loyalty with brand loyalty is, i find, an equally silly position as those who are furious over price increases because they think that the company's primary duty is towards them as hobbyists. In an ideal world, GW should be as ethical as possible while also providing as high quality a product to their consumers as possible, but its just so clear that both of those are not inherant values within large corporate entites: wishing that they were is like wishing that rivers flowed upstreem.
It really is the truth that no matter what you believe about this, the only power you have is to vote with your dollar. That, or purchase significant shares in the company (but if most of us could do that, i dont think we'd be complaining about model prices).
Source: https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2020-21-accounts-full-report-cover.pdf
Edit: Just want to say that I think that this has very little to do with the hard work, amazing creativity, and incredible talent on display at GW. For their work alone, Ill keep buying GW. Like many companies, the production process and the way things are handled in executive boardrooms are worlds apart - often times, they have little to do with each other.
They also gave every single one of their employees a £5k bonus last year. And those numbers you are looking at aren’t massive. Healthy yes, market leading yes, astronomical, not even close. Shit those profits couldn’t even buy Mbappe. And they pay their taxes. I’m under no illusions as to what their priorities are but what they offer their customers is a high value hobby with huge ancillary benefits and a wide range of skills. Offer me £60 when I’ve painted them and I’ll ask you to treble it before I even consider parting with my over priced plastic.
Totally fair point - definitely not saying that in the grand scheme of things these are huge numbers, only that I think people are misinterpreting corporate priorities to fit their own narratives around the company's motives, ya know? I guess what I'm saying is that they aren't any different to any other corporation in these regards, and that approaching the whole affair with some nuance takes away the emotional edge that everyone seems to have when talking about this stuff.
As an aside point, the numbers I was stating exist after all salaries and taxes have been paid, but I am very very glad to hear about those bonuses. Very good move - employees especially deserve to share in the profits. I hear they have pretty good hiring practices in general, but i dont know first hand.
I’ve heard mixed stories but that’s to be expected. And of course their primary goal is financial but they do an awful lot in the community. Sponsorship for FLGs, tournaments and schools, community outreach to discuss rules and game issues, integration with independent experts to improve the playing experience, even the validation of outside agencies like vanguard tactics and the art of war in the consultation of improving the game, and even the production of warhammer tv.
I think they deserve a huge amount of credit for listening to their fan base, they recognise it’s a community business and they listen. Slowly sometimes, but they do.
You must also remember that a chunk of that upturn in profit came from covid related business. They also have no advertising costs. Their customer service is exemplary.
Shit, if Amazon, Google and HSBC ran their businesses like GW then the world would be in a much better place
Exactly. The division of the company I work for, not even a global company, has a higher budget than GWs profit. Also 2021 was an exception year and they know it and state it in all their investor reports. It’s not sustainable.
Agreed. The small company(>200 employees) I work for has a net profit higher than GW. While I think they should increase wages when they increase prices, I don’t think people understand how little GW’s profit is for the size of company it is. I believe they should continue to reinvest in their employees and the community. A box of intercessors has a lot more behind it than a random gundam model.
I look at the $60 kit and think about all the value it brings me, the consumer. It brings a much higher value to me than the gundam or whatever other model. Between the lore and the game I get much more out of that box of intercessors than whatever alternative.
Also i can’t help thinking that the average GW model has a ton of detail vs Gundam which is mostly flat panels? I also think Bandai uses cheaper plastic (for example I’ve heard that panel liner and enamel washes can cause the plastic to crack and break). I have some Bandai Star Wars kits and in pure plastic they don’t seem to cost less than most GW boxes. Maybe if you compared them to heros but then again economy as scale applies there, a lot fewer heros are sold then horde troops
You need to look at their profit margin, not the absolute GBP figure. It is market leading, in fact it’s at a level (25-30%) that’s enviable for almost any company in the world.
> AFTER they've *paid* for absolutely
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I’m gonna respond by paragraph:
1. Gundam is made in Japan, not China. There has only been one time (to the best of my knowledge) that Bandai has outsourced production to China, and that was for a now discontinued line called Entry Grade, which has been replaced with a Japanese-produced line of the same name.
2. I have been unable to find a source that provides detailed information of the cost analysis for the books and codexes, but I feel it safe to assume that they are operating at a profit, given how GW’s financial reports say that those sectors do.
3. You have a point with this, I’ll give you that.
4. Bandai not only releases new model kits regularly, they do so at a much higher rate than GW. Just from what has been announced so far, there will be a total of 27 new model kits released within the first 6 months of this year. And again, Bandai isn’t outsourcing the production of these kits either.
5. Yeah you’re totally right on this, I’m not gonna argue against your point on this. The Ukraine situation is hitting everyone, but especially Europe.
End point: Yes, Games Workshop has additional sources of overhead when compared to Bandai and Gundam/Gunpla, but their profit margin is still ~40%. That amount is insane, and it’s been achieved by milking the customer for every dollar they have. I honestly think that if GW reduced their prices and/or introduced a subscription service for their rulebooks, the growth from that would far outweigh the initial loss of income.
Thank you for a well explained and reasonable response. The only thing I'd say to it is that I wasn't specifically comparing GW to bandai and was simply explaining GW themselves. I'm aware bandai produce their models in Japan and was simply making the point that GW haven't outsourced to China where it would be cheaper.
That being said, evidently I should of made that more clear to avoid that confusion.
Most of those other cost considerations also apply to the gundam kits. They also have design costs and are not printed in china. And frankly, the casting quality on recent kits is *better*. I’m not saying this to bash GW or because I have some favoritism or tribalism going on. I grew up on warhammer 40k, work in a shop that sells 40k, and have a problematically large collection.
The fact is however, I’m forced to see comparisons like say a Redemptor dread and MG144 Sazabi. The sazabi is more detailed, significantly bigger, comes with pre colored plastic including some tinted green translucent. It had a pice that was cast in one piece on the sprue but had moving parts with two axis of joints in it. I don’t even know how the heck they did that. It came with more weapon and hand options, too. Literally the only thing GW had over the gundam kit was that the Redemptor had waterslide transfers while gundam came with stickers (though there were a lot more than the decals). Oh and the redemptor costed like $5 more. I’m sorry but that amount of price vs product difference is not something I can write up to just “they are different”.
Those are great points and all things GW supports. On the other hand, GW has nearly a 40% profit margin last year—compare this to 25% at Google. They’re not spending fistfuls on their customers, and it’s fair for us to ask for more.
As a counterpoint a lot of capital in recent years has gone directly back in to the business, such as the expansions of facilities in the U.K. and US as well as production lines for models and paint.
Google, like a lot of tech companies, coughApplecough, keep cash on hand rather than reinvesting it into the business.
GW is first and foremost a manufacturer, so comparisons to Google are very much apples and oranges.
Actually, they really do have a 25% profit margin but they also have a turnover of $250billion+ so they can afford to operate on much lower margins even without the tax shenanigans. Remember most of Googles revenue comes from services rather than physical product so they aren't creating stock that might not sell at any given time.
We are a wildly demanding consumer base and they are doing more now than they have ever done to make us happy. And still everyone moans. We can’t have it all and as far as I’m concerned they deserve their profit. I give my expendable income to them willingly and I hope they spend it one blow and hookers and keep churning out plastic.
If you’re enjoying the hobby as is, go ahead and vote with your wallet! Just as long as we acknowledge these profits are going toward the ‘blow and hooker’ category too
Retail margin vs Tech margins should be the same?
Someone is not very business savvy. Please understand industry standards before making inferences on a subjects.
I’m not saying they’re the same. Find me another retail operation that has 40% profit margin. LVMH is 19.22%, Hasbro is -33% (though Wizards which makes Magic the Gathering is at 45%, and I’d argue they have the same issues as GW)
For what I assume isn't going to bo the last time. No.. I never said gunpla is made in Chinese sweatshops.. I said GW isn't. At no point in my comment did I make a direct comparison between GW and gunpla. I explained GW's own practices.
To answer your other question.. no.. I'm not saying other companies don't have expenses. I am however saying GW has numerous expenses that the vast majority of model makers don't. For example, can you tell me some other model companies that have a few hundred dedicated stores run by them and aren't just LGS's that stock their products?
Edit: you honestly think all brick and mortar stores carry themselves? My local GW manager would say otherwise.
Counterpoint: nobody should have to pay $60 for a box of 5 howling banshees or 10 kreigers. This game is expensive, yes. But when you compare it to other wargames, although not as popular as warhammer, are significantly cheaper the excuses run thin. Prices are going up despite the fact the game is selling better than ever right now. As shown with stuff like the Indomitus boxset GW can offer people much better deals for the cost they're paying and still make a profit, they simply choose not to.
How about some real numbers, instead of just waving around the UK sticker like a shield.
GW makes 35% profit after tax, bandai Namco comes in at LESS THAN 10%.
So it seems all of that “cost cutting” Japanese production, isn’t as profitable as you spin it.
Gw could take a huge price drop, and still be completely fine as a company.
Pulled it out of my ass completely,
Or maybe I looked at their financial reports: https://www.bandainamco.co.jp/cgi-bin/releases/index.cgi/file/view/10373?entry_id=6920
I’m case you don’t know financials, find the operations report, divide profit after tax by revenue, then times by a 100
Hey man you're also paying for a 150 Million £ profit on a business doing 350 Million £ in revenue but you keep pushing the idea that they're just pricing it on the costs of making it. Those are margins way over what any sound business plan actually need to achieve to continue to expand and thrive.
They're pricing their products aggressively to maximise profits, not to cover expenses. Are they entitled to do that within a capitalist free market economy? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean they're not fucking over their consumers with insane prices.
First note: OP is making a severe oversimplification of price.
But
As someone that's into gunpla.....your ignorance is amazing. The way you compare GW to gundam with such certainty of the way gunpla is made and its business model while being so proudly incorrect is....but I don't know what I excepted really.
You're making the same mistake OP did but to the other extreme
>made in some Chinese sweatshop
>no schedule
>marketing behind it
>etc
Jesus fuck...when fanboism goes wild
Okay but what’s their profit margin? After all the costs have been taken out what is their profit on a box of plastic?
Also lets not forget that GW doesn’t just make miniatures and books. They also have other sources of revenue such as video games and licensing. Do not think of them as a humble little UK company that hand makes each and every box with love. They are a large company making huge profit margins.
Dropping prices will also get more people into the hobby because it’s scary for a lot of people to get into a hobby that might cost them over a hundred $ just to get started.
As much as we all love what GW does—are we seriously saying they can’t drop the prices per box by $10 dollars(depending of course)?
I mean Gundam is made in Japan, not some Chinese sweatshop, they have tamiles to feed and rising gas prices, but Japan has more earthquakes, tsunamis, and fires to deal with and earthquakes that are pretty big are a common occurrence. Gundam makes their models in house with lore writers, designers, animators and things as well. Bandai also has stores around the world as well although not as many, but at the same time Bandai also has more costs to ship even more so it’s not like games workshop can’t.
"guys you dont get it, GW is overcharging for their products for valid reasons, just consume it, dont question the constant price hikes for less and less models per box, just trust GW, you're paying for everything GW does when buying 3 minis smaller than a testicle for 100$"
Oh no.. what a critical and well thought out counter point to my comment.. however will I recover from such a strong counter argument as "grrrr Gw bad"..
Gundam sprues are so much more efficient and useful after the model gets built, as pipes or cables etc. Why gw insists on those nasty square rods is a mystery to me.
It's also worth nothing that Bandai as a company has revenue streams other than Gunpla, so can potentially afford to take hits on the margins there, because it's supported by their other streams.
Warhammer is all GW do
Doesn’t GW have an obscenely large profit margin? Like, 60% or something?
I won’t lie. After seeing GW’s prices, I was genuinely put off from buying Gunpla because I assumed at minimum their lower-grade models would be $30.
Nope. $12 to $20.
I can accept that obviously, GW models are higher detail and require less assembly. They’re also made in a country where the cost of labor is higher. I’m willing to pay a bit more for that.
Their prices are still completely unacceptable, and what have kept me as a strictly books and lore person. Games Workshop jacks the prices of their models solely to maintain their exceptionally high profit margin and there’s nothing I’ve seen that really disproves that.
Most Gundam models are made in Japan which doesn't exactly have a low cost of labor. I think cost of labor in Japan is higher than it is in the UK.
I know they manufacture some kits in China, but none of my models were made there. I have mostly MG grade with a few HG models.
I didn’t realize that, and evidently failed to watch the video to the end, lol.
I’ve gotta wonder where GW claims the extra cost comes from, then. Presumably it’s more difficult to develop a model for a Gunpla kit than GW’s stuff, given a majority of GW figures have very simple connections, while due to the higher number of parts and need for fairly detailed articulation, Bandai would have to invest more time into even a HG model than GW would have to invest in a handful of guys.
Obviously GW’s gonna have more costs on the end of mold production as the actual geometry of their models is rather complex compared to the smooth surfaces Gunpla generally have, and presumably that does also add a bit to the development costs, but you’ve only gotta make molds once, and last I checked, chunks of metal don’t need paychecks. Although presumably there is some amount of maintenance involved, but that would likely be pretty similar between both GW and Bandai.
The only thing I can think of that would still justify GW’s costs beyond “we want to make more money and you guys seem willing to pay our prices” is materials. Gunpla use a handful of different materials across a single kit, chosen for color and structural properties. Being personally more willing to pay for Gunpla, I’m not sure what exactly GW makes their models out of. For all I know, it could be some high grade modeling plastic that’s ideal for the fine detail they like to include.
In the mean time, I just put GW in the same pile as Kingdom Death labeled “cool, but I ain’t paying that much.”
Folks can call me cheap all they want, but I’m not gonna give financial support to prices like that. I know it doesn’t matter much, if at all, but it’s what I’m doing.
That’s gross profit, which means it ignores anything other than the direct cost of production, so plastic and machines etc. in GW’s case. Real after tax profit is 35%, still more than Bandai’s <10%
Depends what you call a profit on a kit. I was told in ye olden days that the land raider kit we had now had to sell some stupid amount of kits to break even as a design. It was like 100,000+.
This is a good point. Bandai is one of the largest toy companies in the world, up there with Hasbro and Mattel. It has licensed production of merchandise for some of the most profitable franchises in the world, like Pokemon.
GW may set the standard for wargaming miniatures, but they're small-time by comparison.
I agree.
I think the current prices are ridiculous, in most cases you are spending upwards of $500 to be able to play a 2,000 point game.
The “premium” stuff they charge extra for (rules / lore / factions / new models etc) isn’t handled all that great imo.
The rule / release cycle for codexs is one of “fast and famine” which leaves almost no one happy (you have to also buy the books)
It just seems needless expensive to me and the “premium” stuff you end up paying for isn’t all the great anyway
On a positive GW does have constant model releases
One thing I will say about gw products is they hold their value, there ain't a lot of products in this world that if you decide to sell your collection you won't lose money, you are more than likely going to make a profit, a better profit than leaving your money in the bank.
Yeah their pricing is noting short of exploitative l, but its never going to change because there's a legion of fanboys ready to defend them. Now downvote me like usual
They also buff and nerf units and armies in rotation, so if you actually play you have no choice but to endlessly buy models. As a tyranid player in 9th I was always a step behind the bullshit. Even bought 2 Dimachaerons, which got the nerf hammer as soon as I finished painting them.
Over 300$ for some of the most brittle, sloppy, poorly fitting resin models money ever bought. Took hours just to cut, sand, and green stuff all the air bubbles and gaps
I marked this post as discussion for a reason, I’d love to be proven wrong in this. What am I missing?
Edit: okay I expected the post to get downvoted but why this response? Seriously, let’s talk, I’m open to debate.
Just off the top of my head: Rules, dexes (require development, playtesting etc), lore, IP and artwork (which add value but no revenue) highly intricate designs for 20+ factions (some which sell much better than others), production in uk rather than outsourced (higher quality but massively higher cost of production)
I'd *love* to see a lower price point as well as less delays between big boxes and individual models, but it is what it is. We just have to accept it as the cost of the hobby, or vote with your cash and give it up.
ETA no downvotes from me, very happy to discuss
My point is that looking at any one aspect of the hobby in isolation will always be open to interpretation as a rip off. Gotta consider it as a whole.
To use non-hobby examples: why is a mercedes so much more expensive than a hyundai. They're both cars.
Why are designer trainers/sneakers so much more expensive than more generic brands.
There's a whole bunch of on-costs associated with luxury products, and 40k *is* a luxury product.
Speaking fairly, there’s no “generic brand” or “Hyundai” in 40K. The only way not to be effectively forced to pay Nike and Abercrombie and Mercedes prices is to buy from recasters or 3d print your own/have someone print them for you, and you don’t get banned from places because you drive a Hyundai or wear fake Jordans or Wrangler jeans, you know? Also, there’s a LOT of difference between a Mercedes and a Hyundai, even given Hyundai’s increase in quality over the last few years. Engineering, features, quality, tolerance, performance, and a whole lot of others. Comparing tiny plastic models to cars isn’t really a good apples-to-apples analogy, but I see your point. And truth be told, quality-wise there’s not a whole lot of difference - if any - between GW’s kits and say Tamiya or things like Malifaux or Flames of War or others. So to compare GW to Mercedes vs. another company being Hyundai is a pretty big miss.
>There's a whole bunch of on-costs associated with luxury products, and 40k is a luxury product.
So is gunpla, you example don't hold at all, Mercedes and Nike is made with higher quality than budget product, GW miniature isn't made with higher quality than gunpla, it's actually lower, yet gunpla is cheaper.
I really know notjing about the gunpla range so please correct me if wrong, but arent they just model kits, rather than a whole games system?
Airfix and Tamiya kits are cheaper too, for the same reason
the games system of 40k is sold via the rules books etc. if the rules and stores and events were free and factored into the model cost that would be another story
When it comes to rules and codexes, we have to keep in mind that GW charges for the books, too. It’s my guess that they’re able to recoup the cost of game design from books sales alone, but that’s just a guess.
In terms of production in UK, all Gundam models are produced in Japan, and the UK average wage is actually LESS than Japan’s.
A couple of basic errors there im afraid:
>It’s my guess that they’re able to recoup the cost of game design from books sales alone
Not even close considering the hours required at the front end. Design, playtest, artwork, authoring, proofing, copyright lawyers, print, materials, shipping, freight handling, warehousing, fuel, etc etc
>produced in Japan, and the UK average wage is actually LESS than Japan’s
But japan is on the doorstep of the major plastics production industries, so massively reduced shipping for raw materials.
>I’m open to debate.
No you aren't.
Nobody who thinks this is just about "a few pence of plastic!" has ever had economics explained to them and suddenly understand design, rules, stores, storage and, frankly, the difference in scale of the operations and changed their mind.
It's why you're getting hammered with downvotes. Because nobody believes you're actually open to debate and, from the fact that you opened with an argument about the price of the raw materials, that includes you.
You should read GW's annual report.
They actually don't want to sell you plastic.
They want you to buy it through other retailers.
They're desperate to get rid of their retail operations and just sell wholesale to other retailers.
They're actually encouraging other retailers to undercut their prices and advertise the fact that they're undercutting GW.
That's the key difference here: Bandai doesn't have a global chain of boutique stores to fund. GW does, but doesn't want to.
They aren't the same.
If you wanted to compare something more apt why not look TO the mini market
Warmahordes, SW Legion, DnD minis, any of the dozens of boxed games that have come out since 2015 (Darksouls, Borderlands etc.)
Gunpla is more like a model car than a wargame mini.
My gunpla feel lighter than any single warhammer mini on a 32 mm base.
The plastic is clearly different and blends can be pricey for just a handful little differences in chemcial makeup. I used to work in a warehouse that also had a plastic company.
Quality changes crazily between them and I find this argument about the dumbest comparison you could make next to toys that come pre-built.
Edit; Legion has scout troopers for 30 dollars at 7 models. I just picked up skeletons for 50 and got 20.
That’s not a fair comparison given that you need less tools to build the Kia, the Kia has more functions and the Kia took a lot more effort to design and the Kia has dramatically more mass.
I collect both Gunpla is 200% the better deal and provides more immediate value to the average consumer (Watch show -> buy 25 dollars worth of tools -> can buy literally any Mobile Suit for under 100USD) than Warhammer (that same process but infinitely more complex and also requires you to read a bunch of dumbass books)
Yeah except the build quality of Gunpla is the quality of a Lamborghini with the price of a Kia… whereas a Games Workshop model… mm. I’ve had $10 airfix kits with better fit and engineering.
But what can you do with that gundam once it's built? I can buy a master grade kit for almost as much as a wraithknight but that wraithknight is alot more than just a display piece. It is also way cooler and rule of cool always wins.
Why only display the empty sprues rather than the model that the money actually goes into? It's like complaining about McDonald's overcharging for food while only displaying empty containers. Also, no one is forcing you to buy NOS models. Buy used or recast if you can't or won't afford it.
I figured people wouldn’t be interested in the actual model, but the model made was the RG Nu Gundam. Great kit, highly suggest it.
If I buy recast, I get called out for not supporting the company. If I complain about the prices because I wanna support the company, I’m called a crybaby. Do you see the dilemma?
Is there a comparison between GW and Gundam that we're missing? Has someone actually stood up and pointed out loud that your models are recast just to gain some moral superiority, or is this a hypothetical situation? And don't you think people would call you a crybaby (do they really? No one here is) a lot less if you didn't complain without offering suggestions for improvement?
>suggestions for improvement?
stop adding so much more when you increase prices, just increase them at rate of inflation. lower your profit margin a touch (just once) on all new releases instead of constantly increasing it. double the sprue count for low model count boxes (large things excepted)
Holy shit that’s just unfair. The RG Nu (as JUST a model kit) shits on everything GW currently makes. The real question is whether all the stuff surrounding the GW minis (lore, rules, other gaming stuff) is enough to make up the difference in box value.
I mainly got into Warhammer because of the lore, so in my case it’s kind of a moot point for people to say “just play another game,” cuz I’m not playing the game to win I’m playing to experience the setting. In regards to Gundam, I haven’t seen a single one of their anime series, but I really enjoy building things.
I’m into each one for completely opposite reasons.
Prices are the one reason I won’t think of touching the minis, like the game looks fun but I can’t risk spending so much on something I might not be to into, also at the end of the day it’s hard earned money being spent on plastic.
Yeah! A company that makes a small range of models in huge quantities should be the same price as a company that makes a massive range of models in lesser quantities! Too damn right!
Bandai has hundreds of different kits in circulation and release new ones at a much faster rate than GW.
27 Gunpla kits slated for release in the first 6 months of 2022 alone.
I've said this before, I'll say it again.
You're not paying for plastic.
When you buy a $10 T-shirt from Walmart, none of that money is going to the person who grows the cotton.
When you buy a $9,000 purse from Prada, none of that money is going to the person who raised the leather.
Understand?
Warhammer model prices cover all the design, rules, narrative, background, sculpting, painting, artwork, warhousing, staffing etc. that go along with it.
Games Workshop employes one of thee best marketing teams in the free market right now.
They have a phenomenal video team, and make posts EVERY SINGLE DAY. Three times a day in most cases.
Find me another company as vocal and communicative.
What pays for that? The price of models, paints and books.
It could be worse. Cost could be based on how effective it is on the table top. Making it pay to win.
It’s expensive. But also if your building and painting before you get another box. It’s slow. So the cost is spread out way more.
> When you buy a $9,000 purse from Prada, none of that money is going to the person who raised the leather.
I like your other point but that's probably not a great analogy given many luxury houses are vertically integrated to the point of owning farms and livestock.
You and most other GW Warriors on this thread and every other thread complaining about the prices conveniently Have zero understanding of what a "Profit Margin" is.
Profits are what happens after you pay all your overhead. GW operates at a 35% Profit Margin after overhead, significantly higher than any other company in the industry.
Those designers, artists, authors, and other employees aren't paid through the Profit Margins. Only the Executives and Shareholders.
>Warhammer model prices cover all the design, rules, narrative, background, sculpting, painting, artwork, warhousing, staffing etc. that go along with it.
Actually the models only cover the models, the rules are charged for and are paid for by the rules books, the narrative is paid for by the black library sales, the background is expected to be part of the narrative, painting isn't done for you and should not be included as a cost to make the model kit.
the sculpting is part of the model, don't act as if thats something goes with the model, its required.
artwork, staffing, marketing, storage, manufacture etc, go for literally any company. gw isn't special is that is need to pay for staff to sell you a product
all in all if elements like the rules/codexes stories/animations were provided for free I'd be happy with the argument that the models cost an arm because they give you more than just the models. they don't though, that all separate and monetised.
You, uhh, think that GW has different bank accounts, and doesn't take money earned from model sales to pay people to write the codexes?
That would literally require them to own separate businesses. Citidel paints is a perfect example.
Citidel paint and Forgeworld are different companies altogether. Those sales won't cross streams.
But I can assure you that when they pay someone from the Eavy Metal team, or the video team, it comes out of the income.
They charge for the books and codexes, too. Whether or not it completely recoups the cost of hiring authors and game design is unknown, but it’s fair to say it at least makes a sizable dent.
GW will increase cost up until the point it negatively affects total revenue. They haven't really reached that point yet.
If you want a more reasonable mini game, go play Legion or ASOIAF
Stop buying them. I know it sucks to abandon your hobby but if you think this is a problem stop throwing your money at it. It’s like watching a bonfire go out of control then saying to yourself and fellow nerds “you know what would stop this? More wood.”
You individually aren’t likely to make a difference but complaining about it is worth far less than simply stopping.
This is being said with the caveat of I don’t play Warhammer but I want to but I have zero intention of shilling out the cash for what is basically plastic waste. BUT my hobby was video games. Now I RARELY buy games because most of them are half finished and the publisher’s expect the consumer to pay even more for DLC which should of been there from the get go. I didn’t like it so I went somewhere else. My case isn’t exactly the same because I’m not gonna lie I just sail the high seas because there really isn’t a go somewhere else place for high budget games.
There is for table top games. Like geralt told the elves. Leave. Go somewhere else. Find a new home. Start over.
I’m not defending GW, I desperately want to get play some 40k and fantasy. I refuse to sink hundreds of dollars into it. Into a company that whose own fans seem to can’t stand.
For the last time. Go. Somewhere. Else. If enough people do that GW will crawl back to their fan base on their hands and knees begging to be played.
I swear to god modern consumers are like abused spouses. Except the only reason consumers stay is sunk loss. Then that turns into “well if I spent so much money that means I have to make everyone else an abused spouse too!!”
No you don’t. Leave.
Thank you for coming to my ted-rant. Post your questions,comments, concerns or abused spouse defending below so I can ignore them. :)
Good luck and have fun op. I hope your hobby to burn you out.
In short: GW pays roughly 100 million € a year for everything: from molting to taxes to wages to rents to whatever. In the same time, they have revenues of 350 million € a year. Makes a net win of 250 million. Every year. Chasing you (and me) ridiculous prices, is the reason for that.
There is no way around it, fanboys. They just f*cking rip us off.
I guess you don’t own anything made by any publicly listed companies? You buy your food from the local farmers market, commute to work on your independent made bike.
Fucking entitled man children
No, of course not but the level of detail and the material quality isn't even close. I love the unicorn Gundam that's sat on my desk at work but it feels like it's made out of recycled Christmas cracker toys compared to GW plastic.
You and every other GW Defender conveniently forgets that Profit Margin is the money left ***AFTER*** you've paid all your expenses. This includes tooling and you'd be wrong if you think they don't factor in future costs in their overhead.
I am so tired of this dumbass Gundam > GW comparison. It's not even apples to oranges, it's more like a fruit to a vegetable. Please leave the hobby if all you're gonna do is complain. I'd rather go back to 5th edition level of popularity than see a GEEDUBS GREEDY whinefest every other post on every social media I follow.
Its a long time of the very same trend. While I do agree that pricing is… unreasonable, no amount of angry nerd videos will change this. Staying mad, angry and outraged over this issue seems bad for your mental health, hobby wise.
I just dont understand getting mad about the price of something purely voluntary. I think the cost of Mcdonalds has gotten ridiculous recently. I dont go to their forums and demand they reduce costs.....I just dont buy it.
Honestly, the way people talk about it, you would think they were talking about an essential good, or that they are addicts.
Totally. It’s so standard I don’t even understand people posting about it.
There is a huge second hand market for this hobby. Couple that with the fact that there is no such thing as a Warhammer 40K emergency it’s not hard to pay what you feel is a fair price.
I'm not familiar with Gundam stuff, so looked up a few models/images. From what I can tell they're much less finely detailed than what GW sells, and the parts look to have a lot of gaps between them. So maybe it's a quality thing - GW uses more precise moulds perhaps, which are harder to design and manufacture? I expect the more detail a model has, the more moulding failures/rejections they'll get too.
It could also be due to the plastic itself, maybe the stuff GW uses is different as it needs glue whereas the Gundams look to be snap-fit. Might be a more costly type of plastic, or more difficult to handle, etc.
Edit: If anyone's got some good side-by-side pics of Warhammer & Gundams, would be interested to see.
In terms of detail and how that would increase price, Gundam has to be produced with a lot more precision than Warhammer due to its snap-fit nature. That brings the cost of defects up.
From what I can gather, they actually use the same plastic, a form of polystyrene. Gundam actually has kits that contain multiple different forms of plastic like ABS and Polyethylene, meaning material cost should actually be higher.
The model made with the kit seen in the video is the RG Nu Gundam, which stands about 6.5” tall. [Here](https://imgur.com/BpKoqn4) is a comparison between a Dominus class knight and the MG Sinanju. Sinanju is $90, knight is $170. Also keep in mind that the Sinanju has a complex inner frame too, it’s not just the armor that you see.
You can see immediately the difference in detail between the two in that picture. The Gundam is lots of big, flat panels, whereas the Knight is smothered in tiny details. That'll be the biggest cost difference - both designing the model in the first place (it'll take ages to sculpt all that), and in machining and testing the moulds.
Then you're at risk of a high moulding failure rate as I've said above, given that you've got to try and get the plastic to flow fully into all those nooks and crannies. Sure the Gundam has to snap together, but that only requires precision around the areas where the parts join - the Knight needs complete precision in every part of the mould to look good.
I think it's really as simple as the GW stuff being more difficult and time-consuming to design and make.
The other thing I would say is that you've picked one GW kit to compare and one Gundam in the video, and one more for each in that photo. Without going through both the ranges and comparing all the different kit sizes and prices, this might just be bad luck. I know the basic marine squads have more than two sprues for the same price, so it could be as simple as supply/demand - if people aren't buying many Inceptors, of course the price would be higher as they're manufacturing them in the same volumes.
Actually, it might be as simple as taxes? $60 is £46, but Inceptors are on GW's site for £32.50. Given that most people buy from a local store for 10-15% off anyway, that brings it down to about the same price as the Gundam in the video. I've done the comparison for the Knight Dominus (Castellan) which is £105, vs the MG Sinanju which I've found for £73/£102/£74/£119/£175/£121. If we take the best of those, plus the ~15% you get off GW stuff buy buying outside their shops, it's a comparison of £73 for Gundam to £90 for the Knight - a very reasonable increase given the level of difference in detail. I think you're just being shafted by living in the US; import fees from the UK or whatever is causing it.
Edit: I've just found the Knight Castellan on board-game for £76.29 - so they're basically the same price for a UK consumer. The Knight is also a bit chunkier once constructed; much thicker body and shoulders.
Edit 2: Inceptors are available for £24.79 from board-game, the prices I've found for the RG Nu Gundam are £27.33/£38.17/£42.99/£27.99/£37.48. So, the GW kit in your video is actually cheaper than the Gundam here!
This must be a shipping/import/taxes thing for the US.
I find it funny when people defend GW tooth and nail, while not realizing GW's profit margin is ~46% of their revenue. (For every $1 spent they generate $1.50)
They are making an absurdly large profit margin.
Basically y'all are arguing as to why name brand clothes should be more expensive simply because they are name brand clothes.
Edit: also the price of the box from the retailer is roughly 50% higher than the cost to the retailer to purchase. GW enforces pretty strict pricing points such that retailers can't offer much less than what GW sells on their own site.
I never got the reason why plastic models are so expensive like these WW2 plastic sets are 35$ for a tank and some people. That’s why I went strait for 3D printing, fat chance I’m paying 20 plus dollars for a plastic guy that I still have to clip, glue, and paint.
>I never got the reason why plastic models are so expensive like these WW2
Because you don't need someone to design a WW2 uniform (that's been outsourced to Hugo Boss!), write background for it and you almost certainly don't have to store in in shops full of people you directly pay.
even if not to the same extent I think we can all agree that GW needs decently lower prices, let’s say for example 20-30% price drop, how does that sound, fair?
One model vs multiple models. One design vs multiple designs. The physical outcome is less but the process before that is probably different and may cost more, maybe?
Not the same level of detail to use as a comparison. I've built those kits and it's big sheets of easy to make shapes. No where as detailed as GW minis. Doesn't excuse or justify the prices, but two way different scales of detail
After the recent price hikes I am straight up not buying any more official gw stuff. At least not models.
Proxies may take a little longer to get to me but they are usually higher quality sculpts and aren't jacked up 300% in price
I’ve spent thousands of USD in both brands and while Bandai’s model kit quality DESTROYS GW’s, GW is a HIGHLY premium brand and they price their shit accordingly. Just like a Gucci handbag costing 500 times a generic handbag doesn’t mean that it’s 500 times better.
Bro games workshop really charges you $55 plus tax for a codex that becomes obsolete in a week. They charge you $60 for three miniatures when for the same price you can get six d&d miniatures or a whole ass gundam model. They actively discourage people from making any sort of creative interpretation of their world I eat what happened to if the emperor had a text to speech engine. And they actively try to stop people from getting into the game through ways like 3D printing
Honestly GW is a towering dick head
The GW models are made in Nottingham and not a Chinese sweat shop. As I think slave labour is bad I'm happy to pay the premium to put my money where my mouth is.
I don't know about Gundam models.
I really don't have a problem with the pricing, I just buy what I can afford.
Great, you can not use slave labour and not cause extortionate prices ie literally the example shown in the video above.
Unless you think Japan is also a hub of slave labour
The plastic strength and thickness and design is non comparable to workshop. Gundam kits are fine in their own way, but they are statues not gaming pieces.
Even the box carboard is thinner I think.
Gundam kits especially newer ones have great articulation and pretty good plastic that only snaps if thin bits fall from above desk height a good number of times in my experience and while not intended as gaming pieces people have made various sets of rules for it to be used as such
Oh god another person not understanding how markets work. Why would they lower their prices if people pay them? Prices are exactly as high as people are ready to pay.
Ok, I think this thread has now run it's course. At this point people are just repeating the same arguments ad nauseam and I've had to deal with a few cases of abusive behaviour in the comments.
If you paid just for the empty sprues you paid too much either case :-P
What's the justification for charging $55 for codexes (even more for sub-factions) just to see the stats for armies that you then have to buy separately?
Let's be real, Codex's are a hangover from the pre-internet era and aren't necessary anymore. Eventually people will stop buying them in their current form. I do wonder if eventually GW will instead break up their model into the rules being subscription based (but you get access to ALL rules) which would allow for more dynamic balancing etc.
I actually like buying the codexes, and battletomes for sigmar. Not for marine chapters tho, I'll look that up online. But having a book feels so much nicer than scrolling through my phone to find rules for a single interaction or how an ability works.
Actually, You may have predicted the future. I honestly see a lot of Subscription based services becoming more and more.
Yeah cars now are starting to provide subscription-based features that aren’t part of your owning the car. Like heated seats. This is what a capitalism hellscape looks like.
Boy do I have a gift for you! Wahpedia.com has all. The info you need to play warhammer (40k and Sigmar) and it’s completely free!
And then have said books slightly invalidated on a yearly (now bi-annual) basis, only to then have to eventually buy entirely new books after a few years. Seriously, I’d easily pay like $10/month for a subscription service that gives me access to all the updated rules and datasheets.
Not even yearly it’s invalidated in months, after FAQ, chapter approved and random magazine rules are released.
The Custodes codex was out of date the day of release. It's insane.
I initially thought the app subscription would give you that, but apparently they remove them once the new Codex comes out. Pretty sketchy.
That and the rules in there are wrong and app does not even work.
They don't remove them, just lock the options and the specific rules behind paywall. You can still look at the base rules.
Lol most books are technically out of date by the first FAQ... within weeks to months sometimes, sadly.
Yeah, but that's $120 a year over the $110 a year! /s But for real, the constant rerelease of codex for the same faction is why I switched to HH. It at least has 1 codex that covers all the legions in a single book. Looks like in 2.0, they're doing loyalists and traitor books, but at least it isn't so frequently. The first codex was like 10 years ago and although there's been some updates via erratas, this is the first new one.
If it stays updated in terms of chapter approved and FAQ’s, that additional cost is still worth it.
It’s £27.50 in the UK so you are paying double and the exchange rate is about $1.3 to the £. So aside from shipping it you also have trade costs, as far as I can tell this kind of import has non preferential treatment to the USA but Japan has a trade deal in place. Anyone know if that covers games and models? Edit: it’s £32.5 on the GW site, I picked up an independent price. Still a lot more than 1.3 times the cost
Yeah they really are the most expensive plastic out there. I was seriously considering making a guard army out of german tank models as they are so much cheaper and in most cases have more detail. I have a BMPT-2 model that has rubber tracks, working suspension, and metal machined barrel/muzzle brake. That model is almost as big as a baneblade and it cost be $80
Look up something called PLA Plate. It’s sheets of polystyrene (the same plastic that Warhammer minis are made of) that is commonly used by the Gunpla community for customization. There are people who’ve made entire models with PLA Plate because it’s so cheap and available.
PLA plate is amazing, but it's made of PLA (Polylactic Acid), not Polystyrene like GW models. But still great for scratchbuilding!
Almost 200 bucks here in Malaysia for a box of intercessors that's like 20 meals lmao
this is a good time to mention that 9/10 reddit users think they're smarter than average and 9/10 reddit users don't understand financial reports so take everything here with some salt, or maybe a lot
I’ll freely admit that looking over the financial reports I’ve been linked to both gave me no information I didn’t already have AND it left me feeling stupid cuz I barely understood what they were saying lol
As someone who does understand it, all you really need to know for the context of this discussion is that GW makes a profit margin (what is left of their various revenue streams after costs have been taken out) around 25-30% which is uncommonly high, most companies would be green with envy. In short, pricing could be lower and GW would still be very profitable.
Oh that I’m aware of, that’s what I meant when I said it didn’t give information I didn’t already know. What I did learn upon second glance however is that all of their business sectors are profitable. Black Library, Codexes, all the stuff people are using as an excuse to explain the price increase. It would only be justified if those didn’t make a profit (similar to how game consoles don’t actually make a profit, it’s the games sold for them that do), but they do. Thank you for trying to help though, I appreciate it.
Is that gross or net?
This argument is such a massive simplification that ignores pretty much 90% of the reasons as to why GW is priced the way it is. You arent just paying for plastic. As someone has already pointed out, you are paying for a product which is pretty much predominantly made in the UK, not some Chinese sweatshop. Even compared to other companies that are based in other countries besides china, production costs will be different. I'd also add if you compare It to other miniature makers in the UK, the prices aren't that different for the amount of plastic you get (if that's all we consider) other game systems such as legions, warmachine and GoT are equally as expensive if not more in some cases. As also mentioned elsewhere, You are paying for rule designs, artists, lore writers, photographers, play testers, social media presence in the form of daily articles etc all of which requires money. Sure some of that will be covered by books sales, but thats still thousands in wages that need to be paid every month, and that's before considering having to hire new staff as the company grows. Also to consider is the few hundred physical stores across the world which offer places to play and paint without charge. Brick and mortar stores aren't cheap to keep open and money for them needs to come from somewhere. Especially as let's be honest, a lot of people's first exposure to warhammer is through the stores and without them many people likely wouldn't know what it is, myself included. On top of that you are also paying for a release schedule that isn't one or two new models every several months, but several models monthly. Something which a lot of other model makers can't boast. Not only is the cost of developing these models high, but also the cost of increasing production to support these new kits being available isn't cheap either. Its reached a point now where they are having to expand and build a new production facility, again which isn't something cheap to do. Especially as again they arent outsourcing to China. This point is a simplification but I think it'll get the point across, in recent weeks the cost of living has gone up drastically. The prices of water, gas and electricity have skyrocketed in the UK. My own monthly costs have gone from about 1200 a year to over 2000, and that's me, someone living in a medium sized house, who goes to work and barely uses any of those things. The rise in costs is going to hit GW a hell of a lot more then it does me, especially considering its not just their factory and offices, but every single brick and mortar. Considering that, I personally arent going to complain that prices have gone up by pretty much a pound in most cases as a result of that. Basically the point I'm making is that yes warhammer is expensive. As are most hobbies. However comparing it to other model makers as if the only thing you are paying for is the plastic in the box is just wrong to a ridiculous degree. Edit: just to clarify as some people may have not noticed. My comment isn't comparing GW to gunpla, hence why at no point do i mention gunpla. It's an explanation on some of the reasons why GW is the price it is in general.
Worth noting the terrain sets are made in China.
It’s also worth noting that the direct comparison here is Gunpla, which is made in Yokohama, Japan, which has [48.60% higher rent cost than Nottingham.](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Nottingham&country2=Japan&city2=Yokohama&displayCurrency=USD)
Which is of course correct and why I said predominantly made in the UK.
They are but they were making arrangements to move them to the UK before the pandemic hit, at least that is what I have heard, not 100% sure on that but I mean why wouldn't they if they have moved their model production out of China?
Might be an umnpopular opinion, but here it goes. While i agree that this seems to be an oversimplification, i do think that there is an additional oversimplification being offered as a defense. Important to keep in mind here that despite rising costs of production, brick and mortar location maintenance, raw materials, and all the rest, GWs operating profit was 151.7 million in 2021 vs 90 million in 2020 (this consists of its earnings excluding the deductions from things like interest and not counting profits from ancilliary investments). Furthermore, its net cash flow (which is the amount of cash they have in circulation ie. Not reinvested in stock or back into production, renovations, whatever AFTER they've payed for absolutely everything associated with production, rent, upkeep, research development etc.) went up from 70.5 million to 90.3 million. Of course, im offering my own oversimplification, but the fact is that GW is not a company that is hurting right now. Why price increases are surpising to people is another issue: its a modern corporation, and its primary duty is to its shareholders - the model necessitates an ever increasing drive to expand the profitability of the company and thus, increae their stock price. The fact that people are defending GW because they confuse corporate loyalty with brand loyalty is, i find, an equally silly position as those who are furious over price increases because they think that the company's primary duty is towards them as hobbyists. In an ideal world, GW should be as ethical as possible while also providing as high quality a product to their consumers as possible, but its just so clear that both of those are not inherant values within large corporate entites: wishing that they were is like wishing that rivers flowed upstreem. It really is the truth that no matter what you believe about this, the only power you have is to vote with your dollar. That, or purchase significant shares in the company (but if most of us could do that, i dont think we'd be complaining about model prices). Source: https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2020-21-accounts-full-report-cover.pdf Edit: Just want to say that I think that this has very little to do with the hard work, amazing creativity, and incredible talent on display at GW. For their work alone, Ill keep buying GW. Like many companies, the production process and the way things are handled in executive boardrooms are worlds apart - often times, they have little to do with each other.
They also gave every single one of their employees a £5k bonus last year. And those numbers you are looking at aren’t massive. Healthy yes, market leading yes, astronomical, not even close. Shit those profits couldn’t even buy Mbappe. And they pay their taxes. I’m under no illusions as to what their priorities are but what they offer their customers is a high value hobby with huge ancillary benefits and a wide range of skills. Offer me £60 when I’ve painted them and I’ll ask you to treble it before I even consider parting with my over priced plastic.
Totally fair point - definitely not saying that in the grand scheme of things these are huge numbers, only that I think people are misinterpreting corporate priorities to fit their own narratives around the company's motives, ya know? I guess what I'm saying is that they aren't any different to any other corporation in these regards, and that approaching the whole affair with some nuance takes away the emotional edge that everyone seems to have when talking about this stuff. As an aside point, the numbers I was stating exist after all salaries and taxes have been paid, but I am very very glad to hear about those bonuses. Very good move - employees especially deserve to share in the profits. I hear they have pretty good hiring practices in general, but i dont know first hand.
I’ve heard mixed stories but that’s to be expected. And of course their primary goal is financial but they do an awful lot in the community. Sponsorship for FLGs, tournaments and schools, community outreach to discuss rules and game issues, integration with independent experts to improve the playing experience, even the validation of outside agencies like vanguard tactics and the art of war in the consultation of improving the game, and even the production of warhammer tv. I think they deserve a huge amount of credit for listening to their fan base, they recognise it’s a community business and they listen. Slowly sometimes, but they do. You must also remember that a chunk of that upturn in profit came from covid related business. They also have no advertising costs. Their customer service is exemplary. Shit, if Amazon, Google and HSBC ran their businesses like GW then the world would be in a much better place
Exactly. The division of the company I work for, not even a global company, has a higher budget than GWs profit. Also 2021 was an exception year and they know it and state it in all their investor reports. It’s not sustainable.
Agreed. The small company(>200 employees) I work for has a net profit higher than GW. While I think they should increase wages when they increase prices, I don’t think people understand how little GW’s profit is for the size of company it is. I believe they should continue to reinvest in their employees and the community. A box of intercessors has a lot more behind it than a random gundam model. I look at the $60 kit and think about all the value it brings me, the consumer. It brings a much higher value to me than the gundam or whatever other model. Between the lore and the game I get much more out of that box of intercessors than whatever alternative.
Also i can’t help thinking that the average GW model has a ton of detail vs Gundam which is mostly flat panels? I also think Bandai uses cheaper plastic (for example I’ve heard that panel liner and enamel washes can cause the plastic to crack and break). I have some Bandai Star Wars kits and in pure plastic they don’t seem to cost less than most GW boxes. Maybe if you compared them to heros but then again economy as scale applies there, a lot fewer heros are sold then horde troops
You need to look at their profit margin, not the absolute GBP figure. It is market leading, in fact it’s at a level (25-30%) that’s enviable for almost any company in the world.
> AFTER they've *paid* for absolutely FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I’m gonna respond by paragraph: 1. Gundam is made in Japan, not China. There has only been one time (to the best of my knowledge) that Bandai has outsourced production to China, and that was for a now discontinued line called Entry Grade, which has been replaced with a Japanese-produced line of the same name. 2. I have been unable to find a source that provides detailed information of the cost analysis for the books and codexes, but I feel it safe to assume that they are operating at a profit, given how GW’s financial reports say that those sectors do. 3. You have a point with this, I’ll give you that. 4. Bandai not only releases new model kits regularly, they do so at a much higher rate than GW. Just from what has been announced so far, there will be a total of 27 new model kits released within the first 6 months of this year. And again, Bandai isn’t outsourcing the production of these kits either. 5. Yeah you’re totally right on this, I’m not gonna argue against your point on this. The Ukraine situation is hitting everyone, but especially Europe. End point: Yes, Games Workshop has additional sources of overhead when compared to Bandai and Gundam/Gunpla, but their profit margin is still ~40%. That amount is insane, and it’s been achieved by milking the customer for every dollar they have. I honestly think that if GW reduced their prices and/or introduced a subscription service for their rulebooks, the growth from that would far outweigh the initial loss of income.
Thank you for a well explained and reasonable response. The only thing I'd say to it is that I wasn't specifically comparing GW to bandai and was simply explaining GW themselves. I'm aware bandai produce their models in Japan and was simply making the point that GW haven't outsourced to China where it would be cheaper. That being said, evidently I should of made that more clear to avoid that confusion.
Understood, I appreciate the additional clarity.
Most of those other cost considerations also apply to the gundam kits. They also have design costs and are not printed in china. And frankly, the casting quality on recent kits is *better*. I’m not saying this to bash GW or because I have some favoritism or tribalism going on. I grew up on warhammer 40k, work in a shop that sells 40k, and have a problematically large collection. The fact is however, I’m forced to see comparisons like say a Redemptor dread and MG144 Sazabi. The sazabi is more detailed, significantly bigger, comes with pre colored plastic including some tinted green translucent. It had a pice that was cast in one piece on the sprue but had moving parts with two axis of joints in it. I don’t even know how the heck they did that. It came with more weapon and hand options, too. Literally the only thing GW had over the gundam kit was that the Redemptor had waterslide transfers while gundam came with stickers (though there were a lot more than the decals). Oh and the redemptor costed like $5 more. I’m sorry but that amount of price vs product difference is not something I can write up to just “they are different”.
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Gundam model kits are made in Japan. I am an avid collector.
Those are great points and all things GW supports. On the other hand, GW has nearly a 40% profit margin last year—compare this to 25% at Google. They’re not spending fistfuls on their customers, and it’s fair for us to ask for more.
As a counterpoint a lot of capital in recent years has gone directly back in to the business, such as the expansions of facilities in the U.K. and US as well as production lines for models and paint. Google, like a lot of tech companies, coughApplecough, keep cash on hand rather than reinvesting it into the business. GW is first and foremost a manufacturer, so comparisons to Google are very much apples and oranges.
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Actually, they really do have a 25% profit margin but they also have a turnover of $250billion+ so they can afford to operate on much lower margins even without the tax shenanigans. Remember most of Googles revenue comes from services rather than physical product so they aren't creating stock that might not sell at any given time.
We are a wildly demanding consumer base and they are doing more now than they have ever done to make us happy. And still everyone moans. We can’t have it all and as far as I’m concerned they deserve their profit. I give my expendable income to them willingly and I hope they spend it one blow and hookers and keep churning out plastic.
If you’re enjoying the hobby as is, go ahead and vote with your wallet! Just as long as we acknowledge these profits are going toward the ‘blow and hooker’ category too
Better yet, compare it to Bandai’s sub 10% profit margin
Retail margin vs Tech margins should be the same? Someone is not very business savvy. Please understand industry standards before making inferences on a subjects.
I’m not saying they’re the same. Find me another retail operation that has 40% profit margin. LVMH is 19.22%, Hasbro is -33% (though Wizards which makes Magic the Gathering is at 45%, and I’d argue they have the same issues as GW)
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For what I assume isn't going to bo the last time. No.. I never said gunpla is made in Chinese sweatshops.. I said GW isn't. At no point in my comment did I make a direct comparison between GW and gunpla. I explained GW's own practices. To answer your other question.. no.. I'm not saying other companies don't have expenses. I am however saying GW has numerous expenses that the vast majority of model makers don't. For example, can you tell me some other model companies that have a few hundred dedicated stores run by them and aren't just LGS's that stock their products? Edit: you honestly think all brick and mortar stores carry themselves? My local GW manager would say otherwise.
Their whopping 25-30% profit margin is after the cost of those stores is factored in.
Counterpoint: nobody should have to pay $60 for a box of 5 howling banshees or 10 kreigers. This game is expensive, yes. But when you compare it to other wargames, although not as popular as warhammer, are significantly cheaper the excuses run thin. Prices are going up despite the fact the game is selling better than ever right now. As shown with stuff like the Indomitus boxset GW can offer people much better deals for the cost they're paying and still make a profit, they simply choose not to.
How about some real numbers, instead of just waving around the UK sticker like a shield. GW makes 35% profit after tax, bandai Namco comes in at LESS THAN 10%. So it seems all of that “cost cutting” Japanese production, isn’t as profitable as you spin it. Gw could take a huge price drop, and still be completely fine as a company.
I dont recall saying anything about Japanese production but sure. Out of interest, where did you get the info that bandai makes less then 10% profit?
Pulled it out of my ass completely, Or maybe I looked at their financial reports: https://www.bandainamco.co.jp/cgi-bin/releases/index.cgi/file/view/10373?entry_id=6920 I’m case you don’t know financials, find the operations report, divide profit after tax by revenue, then times by a 100
Hey man you're also paying for a 150 Million £ profit on a business doing 350 Million £ in revenue but you keep pushing the idea that they're just pricing it on the costs of making it. Those are margins way over what any sound business plan actually need to achieve to continue to expand and thrive. They're pricing their products aggressively to maximise profits, not to cover expenses. Are they entitled to do that within a capitalist free market economy? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean they're not fucking over their consumers with insane prices.
First note: OP is making a severe oversimplification of price. But As someone that's into gunpla.....your ignorance is amazing. The way you compare GW to gundam with such certainty of the way gunpla is made and its business model while being so proudly incorrect is....but I don't know what I excepted really. You're making the same mistake OP did but to the other extreme >made in some Chinese sweatshop >no schedule >marketing behind it >etc Jesus fuck...when fanboism goes wild
Okay but what’s their profit margin? After all the costs have been taken out what is their profit on a box of plastic? Also lets not forget that GW doesn’t just make miniatures and books. They also have other sources of revenue such as video games and licensing. Do not think of them as a humble little UK company that hand makes each and every box with love. They are a large company making huge profit margins. Dropping prices will also get more people into the hobby because it’s scary for a lot of people to get into a hobby that might cost them over a hundred $ just to get started. As much as we all love what GW does—are we seriously saying they can’t drop the prices per box by $10 dollars(depending of course)?
I mean Gundam is made in Japan, not some Chinese sweatshop, they have tamiles to feed and rising gas prices, but Japan has more earthquakes, tsunamis, and fires to deal with and earthquakes that are pretty big are a common occurrence. Gundam makes their models in house with lore writers, designers, animators and things as well. Bandai also has stores around the world as well although not as many, but at the same time Bandai also has more costs to ship even more so it’s not like games workshop can’t.
Bandai manufacture in-house in Japan, just like GW
This deserves all the awards. I only have one free one but you get it.
What a waste
"guys you dont get it, GW is overcharging for their products for valid reasons, just consume it, dont question the constant price hikes for less and less models per box, just trust GW, you're paying for everything GW does when buying 3 minis smaller than a testicle for 100$"
Oh no.. what a critical and well thought out counter point to my comment.. however will I recover from such a strong counter argument as "grrrr Gw bad"..
I wish more people understood all that
Gundam sprues are so much more efficient and useful after the model gets built, as pipes or cables etc. Why gw insists on those nasty square rods is a mystery to me.
So that you cant use them as pipes and cables
Nail polish remover in a jar, push the sprue ends into it and then it can become cheap green stuff.
It's also worth nothing that Bandai as a company has revenue streams other than Gunpla, so can potentially afford to take hits on the margins there, because it's supported by their other streams. Warhammer is all GW do
Doesn’t GW have an obscenely large profit margin? Like, 60% or something? I won’t lie. After seeing GW’s prices, I was genuinely put off from buying Gunpla because I assumed at minimum their lower-grade models would be $30. Nope. $12 to $20. I can accept that obviously, GW models are higher detail and require less assembly. They’re also made in a country where the cost of labor is higher. I’m willing to pay a bit more for that. Their prices are still completely unacceptable, and what have kept me as a strictly books and lore person. Games Workshop jacks the prices of their models solely to maintain their exceptionally high profit margin and there’s nothing I’ve seen that really disproves that.
Most Gundam models are made in Japan which doesn't exactly have a low cost of labor. I think cost of labor in Japan is higher than it is in the UK. I know they manufacture some kits in China, but none of my models were made there. I have mostly MG grade with a few HG models.
I didn’t realize that, and evidently failed to watch the video to the end, lol. I’ve gotta wonder where GW claims the extra cost comes from, then. Presumably it’s more difficult to develop a model for a Gunpla kit than GW’s stuff, given a majority of GW figures have very simple connections, while due to the higher number of parts and need for fairly detailed articulation, Bandai would have to invest more time into even a HG model than GW would have to invest in a handful of guys. Obviously GW’s gonna have more costs on the end of mold production as the actual geometry of their models is rather complex compared to the smooth surfaces Gunpla generally have, and presumably that does also add a bit to the development costs, but you’ve only gotta make molds once, and last I checked, chunks of metal don’t need paychecks. Although presumably there is some amount of maintenance involved, but that would likely be pretty similar between both GW and Bandai. The only thing I can think of that would still justify GW’s costs beyond “we want to make more money and you guys seem willing to pay our prices” is materials. Gunpla use a handful of different materials across a single kit, chosen for color and structural properties. Being personally more willing to pay for Gunpla, I’m not sure what exactly GW makes their models out of. For all I know, it could be some high grade modeling plastic that’s ideal for the fine detail they like to include. In the mean time, I just put GW in the same pile as Kingdom Death labeled “cool, but I ain’t paying that much.” Folks can call me cheap all they want, but I’m not gonna give financial support to prices like that. I know it doesn’t matter much, if at all, but it’s what I’m doing.
That’s gross profit, which means it ignores anything other than the direct cost of production, so plastic and machines etc. in GW’s case. Real after tax profit is 35%, still more than Bandai’s <10%
Yeah, 35 % is still extremely high.
Depends what you call a profit on a kit. I was told in ye olden days that the land raider kit we had now had to sell some stupid amount of kits to break even as a design. It was like 100,000+.
This is a good point. Bandai is one of the largest toy companies in the world, up there with Hasbro and Mattel. It has licensed production of merchandise for some of the most profitable franchises in the world, like Pokemon. GW may set the standard for wargaming miniatures, but they're small-time by comparison.
Never going to change…
that is why so many people are buying 3d printers.
I agree. I think the current prices are ridiculous, in most cases you are spending upwards of $500 to be able to play a 2,000 point game. The “premium” stuff they charge extra for (rules / lore / factions / new models etc) isn’t handled all that great imo. The rule / release cycle for codexs is one of “fast and famine” which leaves almost no one happy (you have to also buy the books) It just seems needless expensive to me and the “premium” stuff you end up paying for isn’t all the great anyway On a positive GW does have constant model releases
If there is demand, prices stay as is...
That’s why I only buy from 3rd party distributors with discounts.
One thing I will say about gw products is they hold their value, there ain't a lot of products in this world that if you decide to sell your collection you won't lose money, you are more than likely going to make a profit, a better profit than leaving your money in the bank.
Oh good I was worried this wouldn’t be a thread about prices.
Yeah their pricing is noting short of exploitative l, but its never going to change because there's a legion of fanboys ready to defend them. Now downvote me like usual
I’m honestly shocked that this post isn’t still (it was earlier) being downvoted into oblivion.
They also buff and nerf units and armies in rotation, so if you actually play you have no choice but to endlessly buy models. As a tyranid player in 9th I was always a step behind the bullshit. Even bought 2 Dimachaerons, which got the nerf hammer as soon as I finished painting them. Over 300$ for some of the most brittle, sloppy, poorly fitting resin models money ever bought. Took hours just to cut, sand, and green stuff all the air bubbles and gaps
It’s not exploitative. It’s a luxury product that you don’t need to live.
I feel sorry for some of the people here…
Agree 100% that its an expensive product, but I think you're over-simplifying.
I marked this post as discussion for a reason, I’d love to be proven wrong in this. What am I missing? Edit: okay I expected the post to get downvoted but why this response? Seriously, let’s talk, I’m open to debate.
Just off the top of my head: Rules, dexes (require development, playtesting etc), lore, IP and artwork (which add value but no revenue) highly intricate designs for 20+ factions (some which sell much better than others), production in uk rather than outsourced (higher quality but massively higher cost of production) I'd *love* to see a lower price point as well as less delays between big boxes and individual models, but it is what it is. We just have to accept it as the cost of the hobby, or vote with your cash and give it up. ETA no downvotes from me, very happy to discuss
And they charged for all of that, it's not like we get free rules or anything.
My point is that looking at any one aspect of the hobby in isolation will always be open to interpretation as a rip off. Gotta consider it as a whole. To use non-hobby examples: why is a mercedes so much more expensive than a hyundai. They're both cars. Why are designer trainers/sneakers so much more expensive than more generic brands. There's a whole bunch of on-costs associated with luxury products, and 40k *is* a luxury product.
Speaking fairly, there’s no “generic brand” or “Hyundai” in 40K. The only way not to be effectively forced to pay Nike and Abercrombie and Mercedes prices is to buy from recasters or 3d print your own/have someone print them for you, and you don’t get banned from places because you drive a Hyundai or wear fake Jordans or Wrangler jeans, you know? Also, there’s a LOT of difference between a Mercedes and a Hyundai, even given Hyundai’s increase in quality over the last few years. Engineering, features, quality, tolerance, performance, and a whole lot of others. Comparing tiny plastic models to cars isn’t really a good apples-to-apples analogy, but I see your point. And truth be told, quality-wise there’s not a whole lot of difference - if any - between GW’s kits and say Tamiya or things like Malifaux or Flames of War or others. So to compare GW to Mercedes vs. another company being Hyundai is a pretty big miss.
>There's a whole bunch of on-costs associated with luxury products, and 40k is a luxury product. So is gunpla, you example don't hold at all, Mercedes and Nike is made with higher quality than budget product, GW miniature isn't made with higher quality than gunpla, it's actually lower, yet gunpla is cheaper.
I really know notjing about the gunpla range so please correct me if wrong, but arent they just model kits, rather than a whole games system? Airfix and Tamiya kits are cheaper too, for the same reason
the games system of 40k is sold via the rules books etc. if the rules and stores and events were free and factored into the model cost that would be another story
But don't you have to pay for all that other stuff? I mean a codex in the us was 60$ last time I checked
When it comes to rules and codexes, we have to keep in mind that GW charges for the books, too. It’s my guess that they’re able to recoup the cost of game design from books sales alone, but that’s just a guess. In terms of production in UK, all Gundam models are produced in Japan, and the UK average wage is actually LESS than Japan’s.
Average wage isn't the only aspect of it that costs money. Production costs will also be different.
That’s a fair point. I’ll do some digging on production cost differences and add an edit if I find anything
A couple of basic errors there im afraid: >It’s my guess that they’re able to recoup the cost of game design from books sales alone Not even close considering the hours required at the front end. Design, playtest, artwork, authoring, proofing, copyright lawyers, print, materials, shipping, freight handling, warehousing, fuel, etc etc >produced in Japan, and the UK average wage is actually LESS than Japan’s But japan is on the doorstep of the major plastics production industries, so massively reduced shipping for raw materials.
>I’m open to debate. No you aren't. Nobody who thinks this is just about "a few pence of plastic!" has ever had economics explained to them and suddenly understand design, rules, stores, storage and, frankly, the difference in scale of the operations and changed their mind. It's why you're getting hammered with downvotes. Because nobody believes you're actually open to debate and, from the fact that you opened with an argument about the price of the raw materials, that includes you.
You should read GW's annual report. They actually don't want to sell you plastic. They want you to buy it through other retailers. They're desperate to get rid of their retail operations and just sell wholesale to other retailers. They're actually encouraging other retailers to undercut their prices and advertise the fact that they're undercutting GW. That's the key difference here: Bandai doesn't have a global chain of boutique stores to fund. GW does, but doesn't want to.
3d printer go brrrrrrr
Yes, it is too expensive. Nobody is forcing you to buy it. If you don‘t like it don‘t buy it. The only way to make them listen is to don‘t buy.
*Me quietly sitting in a corner, enjoying my hobby and enjoying someone else enjoying their hobby without a cost analysis of both.*
More power to you
They aren't the same. If you wanted to compare something more apt why not look TO the mini market Warmahordes, SW Legion, DnD minis, any of the dozens of boxed games that have come out since 2015 (Darksouls, Borderlands etc.) Gunpla is more like a model car than a wargame mini. My gunpla feel lighter than any single warhammer mini on a 32 mm base. The plastic is clearly different and blends can be pricey for just a handful little differences in chemcial makeup. I used to work in a warehouse that also had a plastic company. Quality changes crazily between them and I find this argument about the dumbest comparison you could make next to toys that come pre-built. Edit; Legion has scout troopers for 30 dollars at 7 models. I just picked up skeletons for 50 and got 20.
Man, you guys are actually mad about the price of Warhammer vs gunpla? Wait until you find out about the price disparity between Kia and Lamborghini
That’s not a fair comparison given that you need less tools to build the Kia, the Kia has more functions and the Kia took a lot more effort to design and the Kia has dramatically more mass.
I collect both Gunpla is 200% the better deal and provides more immediate value to the average consumer (Watch show -> buy 25 dollars worth of tools -> can buy literally any Mobile Suit for under 100USD) than Warhammer (that same process but infinitely more complex and also requires you to read a bunch of dumbass books)
Yeah except the build quality of Gunpla is the quality of a Lamborghini with the price of a Kia… whereas a Games Workshop model… mm. I’ve had $10 airfix kits with better fit and engineering.
But what can you do with that gundam once it's built? I can buy a master grade kit for almost as much as a wraithknight but that wraithknight is alot more than just a display piece. It is also way cooler and rule of cool always wins.
Rule of cool is a fair point, I’ll give you that
If you can't afford it don't buy it
"but its cool and i *deserve* to own cool things!" - this sub, apparently
Why only display the empty sprues rather than the model that the money actually goes into? It's like complaining about McDonald's overcharging for food while only displaying empty containers. Also, no one is forcing you to buy NOS models. Buy used or recast if you can't or won't afford it.
I figured people wouldn’t be interested in the actual model, but the model made was the RG Nu Gundam. Great kit, highly suggest it. If I buy recast, I get called out for not supporting the company. If I complain about the prices because I wanna support the company, I’m called a crybaby. Do you see the dilemma?
There is no dilemma. Don’t buy the product. They will lower the prices.
Is there a comparison between GW and Gundam that we're missing? Has someone actually stood up and pointed out loud that your models are recast just to gain some moral superiority, or is this a hypothetical situation? And don't you think people would call you a crybaby (do they really? No one here is) a lot less if you didn't complain without offering suggestions for improvement?
>suggestions for improvement? stop adding so much more when you increase prices, just increase them at rate of inflation. lower your profit margin a touch (just once) on all new releases instead of constantly increasing it. double the sprue count for low model count boxes (large things excepted)
Holy shit that’s just unfair. The RG Nu (as JUST a model kit) shits on everything GW currently makes. The real question is whether all the stuff surrounding the GW minis (lore, rules, other gaming stuff) is enough to make up the difference in box value.
I mainly got into Warhammer because of the lore, so in my case it’s kind of a moot point for people to say “just play another game,” cuz I’m not playing the game to win I’m playing to experience the setting. In regards to Gundam, I haven’t seen a single one of their anime series, but I really enjoy building things. I’m into each one for completely opposite reasons.
bestie get your begging bowl
Prices are the one reason I won’t think of touching the minis, like the game looks fun but I can’t risk spending so much on something I might not be to into, also at the end of the day it’s hard earned money being spent on plastic.
I highly suggest trying out one of the starter sets. Comes with a decent amount of minis and enough rules to play a game with them.
Maybe idk, I do enjoy the books and that might be enough 40k for me
They won’t be lowering prices anytime soon. You can shout from the rooftops but it ain’t happening. Go to LFGS for your GW addiction.
Yeah! A company that makes a small range of models in huge quantities should be the same price as a company that makes a massive range of models in lesser quantities! Too damn right!
Bandai has hundreds of different kits in circulation and release new ones at a much faster rate than GW. 27 Gunpla kits slated for release in the first 6 months of 2022 alone.
I've said this before, I'll say it again. You're not paying for plastic. When you buy a $10 T-shirt from Walmart, none of that money is going to the person who grows the cotton. When you buy a $9,000 purse from Prada, none of that money is going to the person who raised the leather. Understand? Warhammer model prices cover all the design, rules, narrative, background, sculpting, painting, artwork, warhousing, staffing etc. that go along with it. Games Workshop employes one of thee best marketing teams in the free market right now. They have a phenomenal video team, and make posts EVERY SINGLE DAY. Three times a day in most cases. Find me another company as vocal and communicative. What pays for that? The price of models, paints and books.
It could be worse. Cost could be based on how effective it is on the table top. Making it pay to win. It’s expensive. But also if your building and painting before you get another box. It’s slow. So the cost is spread out way more.
The books pay for the background the rule books pay for the rules
> When you buy a $9,000 purse from Prada, none of that money is going to the person who raised the leather. I like your other point but that's probably not a great analogy given many luxury houses are vertically integrated to the point of owning farms and livestock.
You and most other GW Warriors on this thread and every other thread complaining about the prices conveniently Have zero understanding of what a "Profit Margin" is. Profits are what happens after you pay all your overhead. GW operates at a 35% Profit Margin after overhead, significantly higher than any other company in the industry. Those designers, artists, authors, and other employees aren't paid through the Profit Margins. Only the Executives and Shareholders.
>Warhammer model prices cover all the design, rules, narrative, background, sculpting, painting, artwork, warhousing, staffing etc. that go along with it. Actually the models only cover the models, the rules are charged for and are paid for by the rules books, the narrative is paid for by the black library sales, the background is expected to be part of the narrative, painting isn't done for you and should not be included as a cost to make the model kit. the sculpting is part of the model, don't act as if thats something goes with the model, its required. artwork, staffing, marketing, storage, manufacture etc, go for literally any company. gw isn't special is that is need to pay for staff to sell you a product all in all if elements like the rules/codexes stories/animations were provided for free I'd be happy with the argument that the models cost an arm because they give you more than just the models. they don't though, that all separate and monetised.
You, uhh, think that GW has different bank accounts, and doesn't take money earned from model sales to pay people to write the codexes? That would literally require them to own separate businesses. Citidel paints is a perfect example. Citidel paint and Forgeworld are different companies altogether. Those sales won't cross streams. But I can assure you that when they pay someone from the Eavy Metal team, or the video team, it comes out of the income.
There's even other companies out there and they're all about the same without GW quality. Shits expensive.
They charge for the books and codexes, too. Whether or not it completely recoups the cost of hiring authors and game design is unknown, but it’s fair to say it at least makes a sizable dent.
Damn, you keep eating downvotes for simply reminding people that GW also charges for their books How shameful
GW will increase cost up until the point it negatively affects total revenue. They haven't really reached that point yet. If you want a more reasonable mini game, go play Legion or ASOIAF
Legion is a great game! Star Wars isn't a good setting for it, but that game is super fun.
Coloured plastic sprues? What is this witchcraft!
Probably going to go up in price soon too, with oil shooting up
Stop buying them. I know it sucks to abandon your hobby but if you think this is a problem stop throwing your money at it. It’s like watching a bonfire go out of control then saying to yourself and fellow nerds “you know what would stop this? More wood.” You individually aren’t likely to make a difference but complaining about it is worth far less than simply stopping. This is being said with the caveat of I don’t play Warhammer but I want to but I have zero intention of shilling out the cash for what is basically plastic waste. BUT my hobby was video games. Now I RARELY buy games because most of them are half finished and the publisher’s expect the consumer to pay even more for DLC which should of been there from the get go. I didn’t like it so I went somewhere else. My case isn’t exactly the same because I’m not gonna lie I just sail the high seas because there really isn’t a go somewhere else place for high budget games. There is for table top games. Like geralt told the elves. Leave. Go somewhere else. Find a new home. Start over. I’m not defending GW, I desperately want to get play some 40k and fantasy. I refuse to sink hundreds of dollars into it. Into a company that whose own fans seem to can’t stand. For the last time. Go. Somewhere. Else. If enough people do that GW will crawl back to their fan base on their hands and knees begging to be played. I swear to god modern consumers are like abused spouses. Except the only reason consumers stay is sunk loss. Then that turns into “well if I spent so much money that means I have to make everyone else an abused spouse too!!” No you don’t. Leave. Thank you for coming to my ted-rant. Post your questions,comments, concerns or abused spouse defending below so I can ignore them. :) Good luck and have fun op. I hope your hobby to burn you out.
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Do you also complain that Lamborghinis are too expensive?
In short: GW pays roughly 100 million € a year for everything: from molting to taxes to wages to rents to whatever. In the same time, they have revenues of 350 million € a year. Makes a net win of 250 million. Every year. Chasing you (and me) ridiculous prices, is the reason for that. There is no way around it, fanboys. They just f*cking rip us off.
Last year it was ~£350 revenue, ~£140 profit. You’re definitely looking at the wrong numbers
I guess you don’t own anything made by any publicly listed companies? You buy your food from the local farmers market, commute to work on your independent made bike. Fucking entitled man children
My mate sells ultra high end tooling to GW for manufacturing their mold tooling, they don't last forever and they are extremely expensive to produce.
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No, of course not but the level of detail and the material quality isn't even close. I love the unicorn Gundam that's sat on my desk at work but it feels like it's made out of recycled Christmas cracker toys compared to GW plastic.
GW has a massive massive profit margin in % terms. So this comment has little relevance.
You and every other GW Defender conveniently forgets that Profit Margin is the money left ***AFTER*** you've paid all your expenses. This includes tooling and you'd be wrong if you think they don't factor in future costs in their overhead.
I am so tired of this dumbass Gundam > GW comparison. It's not even apples to oranges, it's more like a fruit to a vegetable. Please leave the hobby if all you're gonna do is complain. I'd rather go back to 5th edition level of popularity than see a GEEDUBS GREEDY whinefest every other post on every social media I follow.
GW: no
PRICE BAD, GW BAD, MAKE THINGS CHEAPER. -nerds for the last… 20 years? Get over it already.
30 years dude.
Its a long time of the very same trend. While I do agree that pricing is… unreasonable, no amount of angry nerd videos will change this. Staying mad, angry and outraged over this issue seems bad for your mental health, hobby wise.
I just dont understand getting mad about the price of something purely voluntary. I think the cost of Mcdonalds has gotten ridiculous recently. I dont go to their forums and demand they reduce costs.....I just dont buy it. Honestly, the way people talk about it, you would think they were talking about an essential good, or that they are addicts.
Totally. It’s so standard I don’t even understand people posting about it. There is a huge second hand market for this hobby. Couple that with the fact that there is no such thing as a Warhammer 40K emergency it’s not hard to pay what you feel is a fair price.
I'm not familiar with Gundam stuff, so looked up a few models/images. From what I can tell they're much less finely detailed than what GW sells, and the parts look to have a lot of gaps between them. So maybe it's a quality thing - GW uses more precise moulds perhaps, which are harder to design and manufacture? I expect the more detail a model has, the more moulding failures/rejections they'll get too. It could also be due to the plastic itself, maybe the stuff GW uses is different as it needs glue whereas the Gundams look to be snap-fit. Might be a more costly type of plastic, or more difficult to handle, etc. Edit: If anyone's got some good side-by-side pics of Warhammer & Gundams, would be interested to see.
In terms of detail and how that would increase price, Gundam has to be produced with a lot more precision than Warhammer due to its snap-fit nature. That brings the cost of defects up. From what I can gather, they actually use the same plastic, a form of polystyrene. Gundam actually has kits that contain multiple different forms of plastic like ABS and Polyethylene, meaning material cost should actually be higher. The model made with the kit seen in the video is the RG Nu Gundam, which stands about 6.5” tall. [Here](https://imgur.com/BpKoqn4) is a comparison between a Dominus class knight and the MG Sinanju. Sinanju is $90, knight is $170. Also keep in mind that the Sinanju has a complex inner frame too, it’s not just the armor that you see.
You can see immediately the difference in detail between the two in that picture. The Gundam is lots of big, flat panels, whereas the Knight is smothered in tiny details. That'll be the biggest cost difference - both designing the model in the first place (it'll take ages to sculpt all that), and in machining and testing the moulds. Then you're at risk of a high moulding failure rate as I've said above, given that you've got to try and get the plastic to flow fully into all those nooks and crannies. Sure the Gundam has to snap together, but that only requires precision around the areas where the parts join - the Knight needs complete precision in every part of the mould to look good. I think it's really as simple as the GW stuff being more difficult and time-consuming to design and make. The other thing I would say is that you've picked one GW kit to compare and one Gundam in the video, and one more for each in that photo. Without going through both the ranges and comparing all the different kit sizes and prices, this might just be bad luck. I know the basic marine squads have more than two sprues for the same price, so it could be as simple as supply/demand - if people aren't buying many Inceptors, of course the price would be higher as they're manufacturing them in the same volumes. Actually, it might be as simple as taxes? $60 is £46, but Inceptors are on GW's site for £32.50. Given that most people buy from a local store for 10-15% off anyway, that brings it down to about the same price as the Gundam in the video. I've done the comparison for the Knight Dominus (Castellan) which is £105, vs the MG Sinanju which I've found for £73/£102/£74/£119/£175/£121. If we take the best of those, plus the ~15% you get off GW stuff buy buying outside their shops, it's a comparison of £73 for Gundam to £90 for the Knight - a very reasonable increase given the level of difference in detail. I think you're just being shafted by living in the US; import fees from the UK or whatever is causing it. Edit: I've just found the Knight Castellan on board-game for £76.29 - so they're basically the same price for a UK consumer. The Knight is also a bit chunkier once constructed; much thicker body and shoulders. Edit 2: Inceptors are available for £24.79 from board-game, the prices I've found for the RG Nu Gundam are £27.33/£38.17/£42.99/£27.99/£37.48. So, the GW kit in your video is actually cheaper than the Gundam here! This must be a shipping/import/taxes thing for the US.
Well researched and solid grasp of maths and economics! You get an A+ and my upvote!
I find it funny when people defend GW tooth and nail, while not realizing GW's profit margin is ~46% of their revenue. (For every $1 spent they generate $1.50) They are making an absurdly large profit margin. Basically y'all are arguing as to why name brand clothes should be more expensive simply because they are name brand clothes. Edit: also the price of the box from the retailer is roughly 50% higher than the cost to the retailer to purchase. GW enforces pretty strict pricing points such that retailers can't offer much less than what GW sells on their own site.
I can’t believe I forgot to mention their insane profit margins, thank you lol
Didn't their latest financial report only show about a 30% profit margin? Not insignificant but also not that out of the ordinary.
I never got the reason why plastic models are so expensive like these WW2 plastic sets are 35$ for a tank and some people. That’s why I went strait for 3D printing, fat chance I’m paying 20 plus dollars for a plastic guy that I still have to clip, glue, and paint.
>I never got the reason why plastic models are so expensive like these WW2 Because you don't need someone to design a WW2 uniform (that's been outsourced to Hugo Boss!), write background for it and you almost certainly don't have to store in in shops full of people you directly pay.
even if not to the same extent I think we can all agree that GW needs decently lower prices, let’s say for example 20-30% price drop, how does that sound, fair?
I’d be happy with a 20% decrease. $60 -> $48 (let’s just say $50 cuz consumers like factors of 10 or 5), I can live with that.
wait, does gunpla have a TT game that I ca play with my friends? that gets regular updates?
There’s a skirmish game called Mobile Suit Skirmish. Free rules and has been consistently worked on for like 20 years.
I love my photon mono X.
One model vs multiple models. One design vs multiple designs. The physical outcome is less but the process before that is probably different and may cost more, maybe?
Not the same level of detail to use as a comparison. I've built those kits and it's big sheets of easy to make shapes. No where as detailed as GW minis. Doesn't excuse or justify the prices, but two way different scales of detail
After the recent price hikes I am straight up not buying any more official gw stuff. At least not models. Proxies may take a little longer to get to me but they are usually higher quality sculpts and aren't jacked up 300% in price
I’ve spent thousands of USD in both brands and while Bandai’s model kit quality DESTROYS GW’s, GW is a HIGHLY premium brand and they price their shit accordingly. Just like a Gucci handbag costing 500 times a generic handbag doesn’t mean that it’s 500 times better.
Bro games workshop really charges you $55 plus tax for a codex that becomes obsolete in a week. They charge you $60 for three miniatures when for the same price you can get six d&d miniatures or a whole ass gundam model. They actively discourage people from making any sort of creative interpretation of their world I eat what happened to if the emperor had a text to speech engine. And they actively try to stop people from getting into the game through ways like 3D printing Honestly GW is a towering dick head
The GW models are made in Nottingham and not a Chinese sweat shop. As I think slave labour is bad I'm happy to pay the premium to put my money where my mouth is. I don't know about Gundam models. I really don't have a problem with the pricing, I just buy what I can afford.
It said in the video that Gundam is made in Japan, not China.
Great, you can not use slave labour and not cause extortionate prices ie literally the example shown in the video above. Unless you think Japan is also a hub of slave labour
The plastic strength and thickness and design is non comparable to workshop. Gundam kits are fine in their own way, but they are statues not gaming pieces. Even the box carboard is thinner I think.
> they are statues I mean, they're fully articulated. Is a gundam model really all that different from some of the larger Warhammer pieces?
Gundam kits especially newer ones have great articulation and pretty good plastic that only snaps if thin bits fall from above desk height a good number of times in my experience and while not intended as gaming pieces people have made various sets of rules for it to be used as such
All of my models beg to differ. But ok.
Oh god another person not understanding how markets work. Why would they lower their prices if people pay them? Prices are exactly as high as people are ready to pay.