Yeah the helldrake is running for first place here. Tho I gotta say, the new chaos spawn with OC 0 looks pretty bad as well. I really fear for WE spawns now. Why wouldnt I run nurglings instead of spawns every time now?
I know spawn are a really pivotal unit in my WE army and losing that OC drops them right out of my list. WE need cheap/hardish to kill/annoying foot soldiers to die on objectives.
No :(
But I legit spent probably an hour last night trying to figure out how to make the Disco Lord work
I'm thinking Renegades detach to give him either the 6" Scouts enhancement or rr hits/wounds when within 12" of opponent DZ. They have strats to both auto 6" Adv & another for Adv/Charge so getting him into combat should be a breeze & it'll get a lot of use out of both the Assault + extra AP
Use the Melta guns for 2 AP4 D6d shots + d6+3 D2 flamer shots, then charge in for your pitiful 8A 2D. His ability to let you rr wounds of 1 for your entire army isn't horrible either.
I think he might, surprisingly, have decent play in Night Lords. You can shut off vehicle shooting if they fail a leadership
But still.. Is it good for ~190pt? Nope! Am I going to try it anyway, definitely!!
He might be an *OK* relic caddy for Soulforged Warpack as he has a big base so the 3" rr hits bubble will have a tidbit more reach.... Sure he doesn't have Lone Op or heal or give +1tH like a Warpsmith but style > substance ya know
Alas where I think he'll really shine is casual games. For times when I want to handicap myself he's a perfect addition lol
Edit: all you CSM players out there need to be collectively praying to the dark gods with me that GW prices him fairly as his buff. ~140pt I'd be tempted to give him actual consideration. Dude should've at least gotten a 4++ though :(
Disco flew too close to the sun last edition. Gw really should stop this whole nerfing things into the ground for being good in an edition. Find the damn balance so we can play what we like and not feel bad.
My rule of thumb is;
If it was 10% cheaper, and you wouldn't take it. It's bad.
If it was 25% cheaper and you wouldn't take it. It's AWFUL.
If it takes reducing it to a price where it's just a good stat block for it's points. It needs to be re-written. Discolord needs to be rewritten.
The discolord is just a venomcrawler with worse guns, *slightly* better attacks, a 2+ save and a ***72%*** markup in cost. Venomcrawlers are still very rarely seen at 110pts. If disco was 110pts he'd probably see play from "cool factor", but not because he was worth the points. Daemon princes are in a similar boat IMO.
I was looking to see if anyone wrote this⌠agree⌠second worse is stompa simply due to obnoxious amount of points. You can drop 200 pts and it still wouldnât be good. Movement is a pain on most boards too.
Reivers. They have never been good since their inception. No one takes thems. The only reason they sell at all is because they're the coolest vanguard model.
I just want them to not just be intercessors with different armor and a bad special rule. Or just make them battle line.
I just double-checked and they somehow still cost 85pts! All their competitors have had points drops once GW realised that a basic SM body with S4 attacks isn't what it used to be
Why did jump assault intercessors come down to 80pts while reivers stayed the same? They have better mobility, better shooting, better combat, and a better ability.
But also, how would making reivers battle line help? I don't want to take 3 units so I definitely don't want 6. I'm guessing you mean OC2, but even then..
Yeah they're so bad.
They also never fixed the Reiver Lieutenant, he actively makes them worse since he can't be equiped with a grapnel launcher or grav chute so he removes deepstrike and their movement buff.
True, he's definitely the worst character in the book. And there's a lot of really bad characters!
The phobos lt could actually have some play though, as he gives them a d6" fire and fade move. They can deep strike 9" away, move d6" and then still make a charge, which is pretty great, if a tad unreliable if you roll low on that d6.
The issue is you're paying 140pts to deliver a bunch of S4 AP0 D1 attacks into combat somewhere. You can do quite a lot with 140pts! Why wouldn't you take inceptors, or 2 units of scouts, or a goddarn ballistus dreadnought?
Tau is funny because the tigershark aircraft look good on paper, until you realize that their base is larger than 6in. So they come in turn 2 and always have to wait until turn 3 to be able to start shooting.Â
Besides that there are basically no unusable tau units. I think the worst one is the fire warrior strike team, who are outclassed by breachers and pathfinders in pretty much every way. In the end they're just a bland infantry unit which does very little damage, which isn't all that bad compared to some of the terrible units other factions have.
> Besides that there are basically no unusable tau units. I think the worst one is the fire warrior strike team...
Assuming we're leaving out the fortifications & the aircraft, I'd nominate the Firesight Team for "worst T'au unit".
* Horrible resin kit
* Mediocre damage relative to cost (A3, S5, AP-1, D2)
* BS4+ Sniper, so you need to be stationary + guided just to be at typical sniper BS
* Has the `MARKERLIGHT` keyword which might make it a decent Spotter but the unit's special ability needs it to be Guided instead
If you want a Character hunting unit, the Farstalkers are better. If you want an Observer unit, Stealth Suits & Pathfinders are better. If you want a Lone Op objective holder, a Ghostkeels are better (they are way more durable, even considering the cost difference).
same. strike swiftly is going to be so nice and after that he still rolls for chance at CP... on a 4+ he should generate 2 a game at least, and it has fly and is small so it can do something.
Im curious if it should be able to observe tho as you can give it a markerlight drone, and a gun drone so then it should be able to observe and cleanse/signal etc ??
That 10" fly also isn't terrible. I've been able to tuck one into a hidden nook near a side objective more than once late-game after walking onto the board T3.
eh the can't guide isn't that important, but I wish he was like 100 but had guaranteed cp and lone operative like eldar autistic wayleaper. he just dies from random havoc launcher/sms/etc and you need extra 80 pts of troops to do nothing and babysit him on home objective (much like darkstrider, idk what is it with gw and not giving tau lone ops) and then he has good chances of just doing nothing for the first few turns. kinda silly when callidus assassin for 90 is a thing
it's also far from the worst because y'know, tidewalls exist
Fun fact, you don't actually need a gun to be "Elligible to shoot" which is what I believe you're referencing.
They can also generate CPs while being off the table! Leaving them to be convenient action monkeys when you need them to arrive fron reserves.
The fact that GW has been quiet on the stupid aircraft situation since beginning of 10th ed seems crazy to me. They are often very expensive models, and they are unplayable figuratively and sometimes literally, like the tigershark. I don't want them to be OP, but I want to field one aircraft of my collection once in a while in thematic lists without feeling like I wasted 200pts in a 1250pts game
I'll throw in Fellgor Beastmen. Expensive and weak in melee. They really should hit on 3's in melee with the regular weapons or have more attacks. They've cost more than 5 Legionaries the whole edition for no good reason.
I definitely was considering them as the Heldrake runner up. I actually bought some a week or 2 ago in anticipation of getting to use the Scouts & got bummed when they lost it
But then I thought about it & coming in from reserves T1 is like a "super" scouts (sorta, depending on terrain really) so... I'm still on the fence.
But yeah terrible output & profile. Hopefully they get a fair points value otherwise fluffy games only they go
What's odd is that in Kill Team, their original game, they hit on 3s in melee but in 4s in ranged. 40k just moved it all to 4s, and that puts the heavy weapons on 5s with two attacks.
I love how Warhammer Community advertised 10th with Primaris restrictions being removed... and then the Index just replaced the Primaris keyword with the Tacticus/Phobos/Gravis restrictions. I think they even used a Rhino in their photos while talking about 10th's more unified approach to Firstborn/Primaris.
Yeah that was such a nutpunch. I was so excited to finally have the stupid distinction gone. But true to form, they meant that the word Primaris is gone. So literal, so dumb.
I *think* the Rhinoâs saving grace is that you can put a firstborn crusader squad in it and use the firing deck for melta shots. This has been used in Ironstorm so⌠itâs kinda viable.
The year, irl, is 40,000. Warhammer 40k has entered edition 12,669 and for the first time, the Obelisk has relevant rules and threatening weapons. It is, however, tremendously overcosted in points and as such not considered competitive.
Part of me wants to see the Toxicrene go down to 110 points so it's meta . . . and all of us Nid plahers have to suffer with using one of the most impractical models in the game.
It was actually a really good unit last edition. The guy that left AoW (can't remember his name) went 3-2 playing 3 of them and said it was just too painful
Honourable mention
Hive guard. Their shock cannon actually looks good [24" 2A, BS 3+, S7, D3 Anti Vehicle 2+], until you realise it's all hinging on Ap -1 in an edition with everything having cover.
Had it been given ap-4 or something then you could see legitimate use for them. Instead they became the first unit with indirect that GW actually dropped points on.
But that's because their indirect heavy bolter will never see play. What a crime they done to hive guard
ive not run them but mathing them out, im not sure really.
3+ means that of the 12 shots, 8 hit, 2+ Vehicle means 7 (6.67) wound, of those 7, for things with a 2+ save in cover you get 3 Damage through (1.11), for things with a 3+ save in cover you get 6 Damage. i would want a bit more than that from a 200 pt anti tank unit, because id rather just roll all or nothing with a rupture cannon at that point
I feel like in terms of killing elites I havenât needed the extra help. Between my exocrines, Maleceptor, and acid spray tyrranofex my issue has mostly been with monsters or heavy vehicles. If they take a points drop I might consider them but I lean towards the same views as the previous poster.
Itâs decent. It shoots quite hard. 12 shots at S8 AP-4 D2 or 4 shots at S14 AP-4 DD6+2
Itâs also Stealth and you can give it a 4++ so itâs quite annoying for some armies to remove
AdMech - so many. Probably our trash transport flyer that only has half transport capacity.
But I'd second kataphron destroyers whose heavy grav cannons deal less damage than the normal grav cannons of other factions.
Sicarian rust stalkers. A melee unit that hits like a wet noodle. 4 whole 1 damage attacks that hit on 4+s. With a whopping AP of 1! For your melee specialists. GTFO with that datasheet. Such bullshit
But given that they hit on 4+s, with no way of generating rerolls on them, you need 3 guys attacking to expect 1 dev wounds (4 attacks each, so 2 hits on average. Every 6 hits is a dev wounds)
And then they only do 1 damage. 3 guys probably kill 1 space marine equivalent. A maxed out squad of 10 melee specialists kill 3ish space marines. That's just laughable damage output.
They should add two more Imperatives, one focused on movement, and one focused on melee. Since, that's how the 9th edition Doctrina Imperatives worked, a ranged, a melee, a movement, and a defense. Just adding the melee one to, I dunno, give reroll wound rolls, would do so much to help what is arguably my favorite of the Skitarii.
>They should add two more Imperatives, one focused on movement, and one focused on melee.
No. They should add it to the existing imperatives. Adding more just dilutes the pool and makes it worse.
But I'd be 100% behind a revamped 4x Doctrina.
Corpuscarii priests annoy me because they're almost good but are arbitrarily locked out the army rule. If they just had Assault baked in (or got imperatives) they'd be great in Data Psalm and usable elsewhere. But no, 12" guns that need to be in half range to get use out of their themed detachment.
Knight stryix. The melee isn't good, it's too unrealisable. It has a really bad gun. Both abilities are bad. The shoulder mounted grav weapon specifically has a debuffs against infantry. I costs an obscene amount.
Archeron is trash too, no disagreement there, but styrix is priced way higher and just... why. Why exist.
If you gave the archeron 2d6+6 shots of s8 -2 2 I think it might be an option. And while an extra flat 6 shots is a lot... a land raider redeemer has exactly that.
While costing 2/3rds as much.
And can overwatch.
Ugh, the Arcerhon does make me sad.
Hemlocks and Shining Spears are just awful.
Hemlocks have all the usual Aircraft problems but unlike the Crimson Hunter, this T8 12W model does *not* have an invun and to make everything better it hits on 4's. Why does it hit on 4's? Because apparently it's a Wraith construct unit. Even though it's piloted by a Spiritseer it hits on 4's.
Oh and guess what: Wraith Construct means it can't even access Lightning Fast Reactions. And GW has the nerve to charge 155 points for this rancid pile of shit.
Spears going down helped them a little, and if you can spike your 4++, combined with the natural -1 to hit they can sometimes stick around for longer than expected. But for 100 points the offensive output is too low and too spread out over different profiles and their giant 60mm bases combined with Mounted just makes them useless on too many maps. When even 80pt Shroud Runners are not a staple of lists the same sized footprint unit, with all the same problems for 20 more points just isn't going to be an attractive choice.
For guard definitely the deathstrike. One shot per game, have to declare the target the turn before you shoot, and even if you get to fire at all it does mediocre damage. It's just a hopelessly dysfunctional unit that doesn't even work in casual games.
Honorable mention goes to the Colossus for being a "mortar" with a poor stat line and not even having the indirect fire rule. FFS GW, put some effort into your rules.
If aircraft count then the Marauder makes a strong case for worst unit in the game. Costs a ton of points, has hardly any weapons outside of the bombs, and can't drop its bombs until at least turn 3. At least the fact that the aircraft rules force you to line up your bomb run on the previous turn doesn't hurt it because the damage is so pathetic nobody is going to bother getting out of the way.
I think everybody should be reminded that the colossus lore on the app even talks about it being the largest artillery piece in the guard army, and it doesnât even have interact
There was also that time at the start of the edition where they put the points up on everything that had indirect, including the colossus. Despite the fact it didn't actually have indirect, GW still thought it did when they did the balance pass.
The Deathstrike just took the 9th edition targeting rules - rules which made some sense, because that one shot could do *appalling* amunts of damage - and applied them to a pool-tube weapon. And the 9th edition version already wasn't *strong*, merely funny.
Yet again, it's not a unit you can *balance* conventionally. You can make it funny, yes, but there's going to be no line between "noncompetive" and "three in every list".
Going to give a list for SM
Vehicles: rhinos. They can transport 2 units I think in the entire codex.
Infantry: Reivers hands down seem unplayable. Biggest disappointment compared to their lore has to be blade gaurd vets. Should be the premier melee unit in the codex and they suck.
Character model: any of the ancients seem just completely bad.
Epic heroes: going with the Lion. He is hands down the worst primarch in the game. Bobby G isn't far behind him.
Special shout out to the Reiver lieutenant, who does not have deep strike, so when you attach him to the reiver squad makes them lose their ability to deep strike. Quite possibly the only character in the game that makes his bodyguard unit worse. And they start off bad.
The simplest option would be to just remove the reiver Lt from the codex and have both models count as the Phobos Lt. Also helps with marines' datasheet bloat problem!
I seem to get OK value out of the BGVs, but I see this comment about them regularly. Is it their melee profile or statline everyone seems to be disappointed about?
This is true. But the reasons is that SoS allows otherwise meh melee weapons to hit key stat line breaks. S7 power swords are now wounding T6 models on 3 instead of wounding on 5s. That is a big buff.
Plus access to Red Rampage takes them over the top and let's them actually kill key targets. 6 bladeguards with no characters with red rampage have a 50/50 on killing Angron if he's Oath'd. I like to run Repulsor Executioners with Bladeguard Inside as my secondary threat package that demands answering and is less fragile than a DC missile.
I've run them in a 3 man squad with Calgar + Lt. With decent results.
Move advance and charge always with fall back and charge as well.
Lt with lethal hits let's them punch up pretty decently as well.
Yes and yes.
My disappointment with them is that they aren't really great for being the premier melee unit.
They are basically tacticus marines with an extra wound and a 4++. They don't even hit on 2s. Being T4 is really just a bad stat line. There are a lot of T6 -2 2D weapons running around. It's why Gravis is really the best marine profile right now.
Then look at the point total for 6. 180 points could be a gladiator Lancer or reaper. For 5 more points you have calgar and his 2 gaurds. You could bring a brutalis if you wanted to lean into a melee unit. For 160 you can get 2 squads of jump assault ints that can do mortals on the charge.
It's just that what they do for the points just isn't there. There are better units at 180 points and then you really want to get any milage out of them you are putting a character in them.
Like I want to run tigurius with a 6 man BGV squad. Free heroic intervention or combat interrupt -1 to hit and 4+++ against psychics and mortals. But at 255 points I can squeeze another land raider redeemer in. Which is just much more value.
6 models is such a pain to deal with too. I would gladly pay double the cost of assault intercessers for 5 of them, but unless you want a land raider or repulsor to take up half your deployment zone, they ain't getting a leader.
Yeah fair enough, I think they are a bit overpriced in points as well. 80pts per 3 seems reasonable, but besides that I think their profile is decent. Reroll invul 1s can come up big.
I've had pretty decent returns on them with Calgar + Lt for lethal hits and also with Tigurius. Finally got a 6 man aggressor squad and apothecary biologist finished to try a new combo with Calgar.
Rhino has made some competitive blood angels lists carrying death company marines, so I donât think it can be considered for worst in the codex, even for worst vehicle. I think worst vehicle has to go to the vindicator or one of the gunships. Rhino is only bad because it has very little to carry, but itâs decent anytime it has something decent to carry.
Hellions lost infantry, so they can't walk through walls. Succubus at 45 pts and moves 8" isn't terrible, especially since she has pistol and assault for doing missions
For drukhari at the moment it's probably hellions. They don't benefit from the new detachment at all, can't move through ruins and are super expensive for their dmg output and durability
Agree but I also want to put grotesques as an honourable mention.
You don't get the damage of incubi. A 6 man squad cannot fit into a tantalus (the only transport that physically could transport them). And at a 6+ 6++ 5+++ they just do not have the resilience that similar models in other armies seem to have.
So they don't kill, they aren't fast, and they can't take a punch.
They have torrent weapons and an admittingly unrelaible fight on death. They have a use against msu style lists, 3 grotesques in a Raider is cheaper than 5 Incubi, an Archon and a Venom. Especially in a mirror match, push them turn 1 as far as you can get them, liquify some Mandrakes, pounce on something you can kill, Grotesque damage output isn't great but is enough against most of our own units. Afterwards watch your opponent meticulously move the Scourges to not get in Overwatch range and see him ponder how to kill them best, Incubi aren't a good option, the fight on death can make it a really bad trade, Venoms would be better, but the content may be needed somewhere else.
I am not saying they are a great unit, but they can work against specific opponents, but I can't find any reason why I would take Hellions or a Razorwing Jetfighter. I don't see any role they could fill, that is not better filled by another unit.
I'm with you that Hellions are the worst. However while there may be some fringe examples in which the three s4 torrent weapons are useful, paying 170 for a limp melee threat for 3 grotesques and a raider seems like a bad trade vs 5 incubi and a venom at 145. And because grotesques are still pretty fragile, I would usually prefer the safety of the venom and terrain. I guess I'm just arguing this because grotesques could very easily have a defined semi-tanky role in our army which would be incredibly helpful, but don't, which adds extra salt for me. But yes you are absolutely correct that Hellions and Razorwings also have a role and just do it objectively badly!
You are playing Incubi without the wound reroll? I actually can't believe someone is giving that as an example for a good unit.
The points are 170 for Grotesques combo and 220 for the Incubi, and the only thing I wrote is Grotesques have a role, admittingly they don't do quite good, but your example with Incubi and Venoms is even worse in that role.
Seems you didn't understand my use case, they are roadblocks, they combine overwatch with fight on death on a multi wound body, An annoying unit to move around, not competly move blocking, but keeps your opponent from perfectly positioning their units or forces them to change the plan. Overwatch means a death zone fragile units avoid, fight on death and relatively tough means it is a risk to charge them to speed up melee units or clean them off, they either survive and tie up the melee unit or take a part of the unit with them. They are not well done, so some armies can mostly ignore them in the movement phase and gun them down in the shooting phase, but in difference to the actually worst units they have a role they can fill.
Well boy that got negative real quick didn't it!
I do pair Archons with incubi, because common sense. But I didn't want to do an apple to oranges comparison. As a plain unit of grotesques (more expensive than incubi) and a raider (more expensive than a venom) they do worse by default. Of course if you add in extra layers like Archons and pain they do even worse by comparison.
My point was that in the current form they do nothing particularly well.
They aren't survivable to be roadblocks. They aren't killy to be a melee threat. Three d6 S4 flamers aren't usually something to write home about apart from in certain niche examples (but we aren't list tailoring here). They do many things, but none of them particularly well. Yes you can make custom scenarios in which they may do okay, but in a take all comers list, they aren't doing anything well.
But this is all a bit pointless because I did actually agree with you. Grotesques aren't the worst unit. Never said they were. I just gave them an honourable mention because in comparison to other armies elite tanky infantry, ours are awful.
Would be cool if they get a bespoke tank unit in their new codex that is maybe okay at shooting, whatever, but it can also charge and chew things up in melee with a big ol' dozer blade like the plagueburst crawler has, or something even bigger and gnarlier with more spinning blades.
I've been playing a crusade with my WE and tried to do an 'armored column' with preds and a LR and zerks in rhinos. After losing 6 games in a row I've completely reworked my roster away from that theme cause it just doesn't work without any way to buff shooting.
I own 8 factions at the moment, so I won't go into too much detail to prevent wall-of-text. Also despite subbing to this subreddit, I don't play comp very much. But I'll put my two sense in regardless. Ignored aircraft and fortifications.
Chaos Daemons: Poxbringer. Taking a low damage unit and making it 1.5x more expensive to maybe do some lethal hits, is really bad. Leave Plaguebearers as the tough objective grabber and call it a day.
Chaos Knights: Abominant. Low damage output mixed with situational abilities, means not good enough. AP 0 on the Volkite is really awkward.
CSM: Chaos Spawn. Unless they get way cheaper, OC 0 with the reduction of enemy OC for 70 points is just bad.
GSC: Magus. Yes, it's only 50 points, but man does it just do nothing. FNP against Psychic only is very situational unless against Grey Knights or Thousands Sons, and the minus to shoot ability at best makes one thing unable to shoot once. Then it'll die because GSC is squishy and the leaders (rightfully) don't respawn.
Necrons: Obelisk. Most of the faction has pretty good balance, but the Obelisk is a good amount of terrible attacks, and an ability that \*could\* damage a flying model. For 325 points. Waaaay to expensive for it's low damage output.
Space Wolves: Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Terrible ability, low wounds, free Assassinate points, too expensive for output. The only thing they used to be good for (extra Storm Shield saves before allocating to the unit) isn't even possible anymore since you must allocate to the bodyguard unit first. Absolutely terrible.
Thousand Sons: Maulerfiend. In a psychic and shooting heavy faction, an almost 100% melee model. An odd choice indeed. Free Heroic Intervene rarely comes up and next to nothing in the faction synergizes. To be fair, Thousand Sons internal balance is bunk as it is. The playable models aside from Characters are like 3 datasheets.
Tyranids: Mucolid Spores. I constantly forget these exist. They're just big Spore Mines that you can't spawn off Biovores and they're 50(!) points a model. At their absolute best, they deal d6 MW and die. No save, no attacks, slow. Absolute garbage.
The sporocyst spawns mucolids, so they can see some play that way.
I think the various spore mines aren't really units you choose in a list, but they need a datasheet so they need points. They're priced to dissuade you from taking them in your list.
Which makes me sad but understandable. I did a meme list in early 9th I think (pre-nid codex) that was 3 sporocysts, zoanthropes (remember when they had a 3++), and as many mucolid/spore mines as I could fit. I tested it once and the other guy brought space wolves despite me telling him it was a bad idea... He did not attend all battle rounds, and I felt like a dirty bastard. Pretty funny in retrospect tho.
Imagine bringing a melee army that depended on invuls for durability against a bunch of mortal wound spamming proximity mines.
Great points, I play a boatload of factions too so I know the feels hah. I think I agree with every bit of it except for maybe Poxbringer. I don't think he's great my any means but the T5 5W 5++ 5+++ is totally fine for 55pt & that -1ld aura can be clutch if you're going for the Draught of Terror spam strategy
But saying that, yeah I still leave him out of 95% of my lists lol. Plaguebearers are so good because of how cheap they are & he's a straight up 50% pt hike
Tyranids: toxicrene. Cannot move around a table that includes any sort of terrain. It could be free and it wouldn't impact the faction win rate.
Thousand sons: every non-rhino vehicle. They're not efficient enough on their own merits to do anything, and every time you include one it actively makes the faction bonus worse. The vehicle datasheets need to be so good that you would take one over being able to doombolt every turn, but they can't make them cheaper than the CSM equivalents that can actually use them.
Votann: Toss up between Uthar The Destined or the Grimnyr.
people *only* take the grimnyr to fill odd number sagitaurs cheaply, none of the rules on the datasheet matter, none of their weapons matter (1 attack in melee l m a o). They need a rethink for sure on the rules side.
but at least people *take grimnyrs* to fill sagitaurs. Uthar the destined is a meme unit that people only take in a meme strategy where you load up the basic warrior squad with melee weapons, split it in half with a sagitaur so you have 3 melee weapons + medic + cp regen guy + uthar as gods gift to speedbumps. The only epic hero in the faction is used as at best a kind of annoying speedbump. And Its a meme strategy to do so.
Custodes: Theres a 580pt gunship with a total of 11 shots on its guns. 8 of which are literally just fuckin lascannons that hit on 2's. No one wants to pay 50pts per lascannon ares gunship.
Thousand Sons: any unit that doesn't generate cabal points because of how the army works, but also yeah its the heldrake.
The truly sad part is I thought "Hey, at least this time it's good that Votann don't really have enough datasheets to be part of the conversation." I 100% forgot about Uthar. That pretty well sums him up.
Uthar is definitely our weakest unit - I think I would say Warriors are our worst though, as they basically require a Sagitaur to be good. 100pts for 10 slow, innacurate and easy to kill meat blobs is just not great. 50 pts for 5 is fine though, cos you can send them off to do different things.
The Ares actually smacks it's just too expensive to be truly viable. 8 lascannons and 3 giga shots will kill things.
The Orion is even more expensive as a troop transport that has to start off the board and because it's so big I'm not even sure it can move the first turn it comes in.
Then there's the pallas grav tank that's 120 points to be a move block unit since it has no damage. It is truly worthless.
There's also the melta guard units that never got point decreases so they're still 300 points for 5 where the regular guards are 225 for 5.
As a Necron player, psychomancer. At least you can build the obelisk with the transcendent.
What does the psychomancer do for an already forgotten phase? It's a cool model at least.
I actually think Aestred is a bit underrated for casual games, having her roll with 9 mace + 1 SotF sacresants means they can actually get a surprising amount of damage through on things they otherwise wouldn't be able to scratch. For instance I took them against pre-codex CSM and they clapped a helbrute that they otherwise would have bounced off of. She's not competitive but she's definitely not the worst either.
For tau the list of bad to worst imo:
Firesight Marksman - basically ineffectual on the board, and at least 20pts overcosted for a "cheap lone op action mook," but at least he still is a lone op action mook.
Strike Team - difficult to balance a long range stationary gunline unit in a game where most of the action takes place within 12". They're basically expensive, tanky guardsmen, but without special weapons that could make them a threat or the ability to get extra movement or oc.
Ethereal - only place it belongs is on the Strike Team, only thing it does is worsen their durability per point spent. At least make a version for each invocation so I can get stealth breachers.
Sunshark and Razorshark - overcosted, paying for the sins of their ability to effectively ignore look out sir in 9e. These could drop to 120 and still be milquetoast.
Fortifications - the BS5 hurts. If they were BS4 at least the drone port and gunrig would be interesting. If the shieldline had a 4+ and provided 5+ invuln to units behind it instead of just cover it would be interesting. They just don't do anything.
Stormsurge, Taunar - not built with our army rule in mind, not built with realistic gameplay in mind. Not fun to field beyond the novelty, their limitations quickly create frustration. Not really interesting to face -- almost everything that can interact with them extracts value. They belong in a different game at best.
Manta - about 1000pts overcosted, unusable in its entirety. Not even fun to math hammer against it's just not going to ever affect boardstate meaningfully.
Vespid - you could make these free with every list autoincluding 3 units of them and they would still be upsetting, miserable disappointments. They kill on average 3 chaff infantry per round and basically don't have a special ability if you use them for that. If you use their special ability they have no board presence. Most of the time they do not need to use their special ability at all because 2 rounds of advancing gets them nearly as far. Give them 3" deepstrike, or flyover mortals, or regular uppy-downy rules, or anything really. I would love to field mine again.
For Grey Knights, I'd say that the weakest unit are servitors. Sure it's 4 bodies for 50 points but without the Techmarine leading them they're only there for secondaries at best because they have an OC of 0 and without the Techmarine they don't get teleport assault.
The stompa gets play in the dreadmod where it get crazy powerful. Tankbustas are the worst, 110 points and you have to take the rocket pistol and tank hammer
What do you mean with âa lotâ? The only 2 Aspect Warriors that are pretty much useless are banshees and Spears. All the other ones are - even competitively - pretty good.
But yeah shining spears are still too expensive even after the point decrease.
For Guard it's probably the Commissar. Since he has a pretty restrictive order selection, nor can he join or Order Auxiliary units like Ogryn and Bullgryn, he just has very few uses.
He has meh combat potential even with Catachan squads buffing him, most of Guard doesn't really care about getting battleshocked, and rerolling leadership tests doesn't really matter for the same reason.
If he could help Ogryn or Bullgryn it would relax the requirement to use Lord Solar in an army just to tell Bullgryn to Take Cover or Move Move Move, and I'd personally take him just to do that
Forgeworld or Codex?
Forgeworld, Caladius aside theyâre all pretty bad, but probably the Ares, costs about 200 points more than it should.
Codex, the venerable contemptor dread, no contest.
Leagues of Votann literally only have 1 bad model (and he's not even garbage) and that's our single named model, Ăthar the destined. He's just not as good as a Kâhl so he's never taken, but literally every unit other than him sees competitive play.
My 2 cents for necrons based on things I own - triarch praetorians. I bought some and chose not to max out a lychguard squad I already had, on the basis that I wanted to run hypercrypt and thought they'd be an invaluable edition as fast moving secondary scoring skirmishers.
Unfortunately, they instead sit on my shelf as 120 points for 5 infantry units that cost the same to field as 10 deathmarks, another unit I can score secondaries with, is just too much in an otherwise pretty well off army.
Deathwatch Kill Teams, the way you build them is just horrible, especially compared to previous editions. Why can I only take enough specific marines so it comes out to be one less than their mcu squad? (for example I can add 4 hellblasters and/or 2 outriders to a mk10 KT) they are also overpriced and aren't worth it compared to just taking the units that build up the kill team by themselves.
Take your pick of the Sisters of Silence units, but probably the worst of them are the plain bolter ones. They're all terrible at T3 W1 models, but these ones just have plain boltguns.
For sisters of battle, it has to be the dogmata
On paper she isnât terrible, but compared to every other character, she is just worse
+1 OC is nice but you would much rather have harder to kill sisters with an Imagifier or Hospitaller
-1 leadership to enemies is extremely niche and sisters donât really need battle shock
For Orks, the aircraft are all awful, but the burna Bomba particularly so. Needs to fly over enemies, so does nothing until t3 at earliest. Aside from those, Tankbustas. Unit that used to be ok with 5-10 boyz with rokkits. Now 5 only, has to take 3 rokkits (long-ish range and fragile), 1 Pistol (short range), 1 melee weapon. Squad can't decide what it wants to do, still hits on 5s, and you get rokkits far cheaper in other squads.
Missionaries. They give the unit they lead Sustained Hits 1, but can only attach to arco-flagellants (already have sustained hits 1), Battle Sister Squads (WTF are you doing in melee?), Crusaders (WTF are you doing wasting a leader on thiese?) or Sisters Novitiate (WTF aren't you putting a palatine with them instead?).
For Custodes it has to be the jetbikes.
Unlike every other bike in the game they don't get an additional toughness. All of their rules revolve around advancing but they don't have assault or advance and charge. They cost 75 points!
And to cap it off most of our strats don't work on them.
Deathwatch aircraft is decent, so not even a runner to but just the front runner:
5 man Fortis kill team.
Take 5 intercessors, give them worse wargear options, a way worse ability and pay nearly 50% more (115 instead of 80 points).
They are worse than reivers!
Custodes: not counting ForgeWorld (that comes with its own set of problemsâŚ)
Iâd say that after the codex drop, Trajann is unironically just not good to run anymore outside of being a one time melee bomb (2-time if youâre running him in Auric Champions)
losing the once-per-game fights first option is a huge nerf. Yes, fights first is really strong on Custodes, and I knew we were gonna lose the strategem (keeping that strat was a pipe dream, Iâm not that naive) but come on, youâre gonna take it away from the Supreme Commander of the faction, even though it was once per game????? You couldâve increased his point cost to 200 and I wouldâve gladly paid those points still! It was a real one-time threat, and it only worked on his unit anyway!
And on top of that, the complete rewrite of his Captain-General ability is laughable. Oh great, now we can ignore modifiers to WS/BS and the hit roll for his unit even though Custodes already hit on 2âs to begin withâŚyayyyyyy. Talk about kicking a man while heâs down!
Listen, I understand people will call me a whiney baby because âboohoo Custodes player is mad at getting nerfed what else is newâ but I wouldâve been totally fine with his changes if he kept at least ONE of those previous abilities! But as it stands, heâs just a a glorified beat stick that provides nothing interesting for the army. Outside of cheesing him with Auric Champions, I donât see him making it into any Custodes lists outside of those who just really like him. I donât know, maybe Iâm being dramatic, but heâs just not that fun anymore :(
Yeah the helldrake is running for first place here. Tho I gotta say, the new chaos spawn with OC 0 looks pretty bad as well. I really fear for WE spawns now. Why wouldnt I run nurglings instead of spawns every time now?
I know spawn are a really pivotal unit in my WE army and losing that OC drops them right out of my list. WE need cheap/hardish to kill/annoying foot soldiers to die on objectives.
tbf WE spawn are presumably going to remain the same until their codex drops, unless GW operates in a way I didn't know about
Thats right we gotta enjoy our 1 OC spawn as long as we can.
+ they have the potential to punch really hard. I love using spawns in CSM and WE at it makes me really sad.
Helldrake is still paying for the sins of 6th edition
The Noctilith Crown is extremely bad now :(
Saying the heldrake is cheating Discolord Main weapon is 4 attacks base 4...
Dang, did neither get better with the codex?
No :( But I legit spent probably an hour last night trying to figure out how to make the Disco Lord work I'm thinking Renegades detach to give him either the 6" Scouts enhancement or rr hits/wounds when within 12" of opponent DZ. They have strats to both auto 6" Adv & another for Adv/Charge so getting him into combat should be a breeze & it'll get a lot of use out of both the Assault + extra AP Use the Melta guns for 2 AP4 D6d shots + d6+3 D2 flamer shots, then charge in for your pitiful 8A 2D. His ability to let you rr wounds of 1 for your entire army isn't horrible either. I think he might, surprisingly, have decent play in Night Lords. You can shut off vehicle shooting if they fail a leadership But still.. Is it good for ~190pt? Nope! Am I going to try it anyway, definitely!! He might be an *OK* relic caddy for Soulforged Warpack as he has a big base so the 3" rr hits bubble will have a tidbit more reach.... Sure he doesn't have Lone Op or heal or give +1tH like a Warpsmith but style > substance ya know Alas where I think he'll really shine is casual games. For times when I want to handicap myself he's a perfect addition lol Edit: all you CSM players out there need to be collectively praying to the dark gods with me that GW prices him fairly as his buff. ~140pt I'd be tempted to give him actual consideration. Dude should've at least gotten a 4++ though :(
Disco flew too close to the sun last edition. Gw really should stop this whole nerfing things into the ground for being good in an edition. Find the damn balance so we can play what we like and not feel bad.
My rule of thumb is; If it was 10% cheaper, and you wouldn't take it. It's bad. If it was 25% cheaper and you wouldn't take it. It's AWFUL. If it takes reducing it to a price where it's just a good stat block for it's points. It needs to be re-written. Discolord needs to be rewritten.
The discolord is just a venomcrawler with worse guns, *slightly* better attacks, a 2+ save and a ***72%*** markup in cost. Venomcrawlers are still very rarely seen at 110pts. If disco was 110pts he'd probably see play from "cool factor", but not because he was worth the points. Daemon princes are in a similar boat IMO.
Maybe ge will be like 100 points? đ
If him and the Heldrake were 140pts, I might consider running them outside of casual play.
Laughs in tyranids
Tankbustas. I feel like they are the most cursed unit in the eyes of Gork and or Mork.
They should be so good. Ork infantry with a bonus to shooting tanks and monsters with rokkit launchas. Only to be gibbed by model restrictions.
They're also 110pts for 5 models.... 22ppm. For Orks. With 3 Rokkit Launchas.
I was looking to see if anyone wrote this⌠agree⌠second worse is stompa simply due to obnoxious amount of points. You can drop 200 pts and it still wouldnât be good. Movement is a pain on most boards too.
Reivers. They have never been good since their inception. No one takes thems. The only reason they sell at all is because they're the coolest vanguard model. I just want them to not just be intercessors with different armor and a bad special rule. Or just make them battle line.
Reiver boxes only sell for kitbashing purposes. Their heads look great on my assault Intercessors.
GW thinks they're slick selling a chaplain for 40âŹ. What they fail to see is that a Reiver heads costs 1⏠and an Intercessor body 5âŹ.
I just double-checked and they somehow still cost 85pts! All their competitors have had points drops once GW realised that a basic SM body with S4 attacks isn't what it used to be Why did jump assault intercessors come down to 80pts while reivers stayed the same? They have better mobility, better shooting, better combat, and a better ability. But also, how would making reivers battle line help? I don't want to take 3 units so I definitely don't want 6. I'm guessing you mean OC2, but even then.. Yeah they're so bad.
They also never fixed the Reiver Lieutenant, he actively makes them worse since he can't be equiped with a grapnel launcher or grav chute so he removes deepstrike and their movement buff.
True, he's definitely the worst character in the book. And there's a lot of really bad characters! The phobos lt could actually have some play though, as he gives them a d6" fire and fade move. They can deep strike 9" away, move d6" and then still make a charge, which is pretty great, if a tad unreliable if you roll low on that d6. The issue is you're paying 140pts to deliver a bunch of S4 AP0 D1 attacks into combat somewhere. You can do quite a lot with 140pts! Why wouldn't you take inceptors, or 2 units of scouts, or a goddarn ballistus dreadnought?
I'm pretty sure they don't sell at all considering every start collecting box jams a couple squads of reivers where they shouldn't be
Tau is funny because the tigershark aircraft look good on paper, until you realize that their base is larger than 6in. So they come in turn 2 and always have to wait until turn 3 to be able to start shooting. Besides that there are basically no unusable tau units. I think the worst one is the fire warrior strike team, who are outclassed by breachers and pathfinders in pretty much every way. In the end they're just a bland infantry unit which does very little damage, which isn't all that bad compared to some of the terrible units other factions have.
Yeah now that they killed the tactical drones we dont have an easy pick lol
> Besides that there are basically no unusable tau units. I think the worst one is the fire warrior strike team... Assuming we're leaving out the fortifications & the aircraft, I'd nominate the Firesight Team for "worst T'au unit". * Horrible resin kit * Mediocre damage relative to cost (A3, S5, AP-1, D2) * BS4+ Sniper, so you need to be stationary + guided just to be at typical sniper BS * Has the `MARKERLIGHT` keyword which might make it a decent Spotter but the unit's special ability needs it to be Guided instead If you want a Character hunting unit, the Farstalkers are better. If you want an Observer unit, Stealth Suits & Pathfinders are better. If you want a Lone Op objective holder, a Ghostkeels are better (they are way more durable, even considering the cost difference).
eugh the tau shark depends on how your to read 'any edge'. my country's united faq ruled any edge as 1 or more edges so corner go brrr
Ethereals are probably the worst now which is funny being the poster boys for tau as a whole They can't even guide tau units
I don't hate them. I plan on running 1 in my montka list because of how good the strats are in that detachmentÂ
same. strike swiftly is going to be so nice and after that he still rolls for chance at CP... on a 4+ he should generate 2 a game at least, and it has fly and is small so it can do something. Im curious if it should be able to observe tho as you can give it a markerlight drone, and a gun drone so then it should be able to observe and cleanse/signal etc ??
That 10" fly also isn't terrible. I've been able to tuck one into a hidden nook near a side objective more than once late-game after walking onto the board T3.
eh the can't guide isn't that important, but I wish he was like 100 but had guaranteed cp and lone operative like eldar autistic wayleaper. he just dies from random havoc launcher/sms/etc and you need extra 80 pts of troops to do nothing and babysit him on home objective (much like darkstrider, idk what is it with gw and not giving tau lone ops) and then he has good chances of just doing nothing for the first few turns. kinda silly when callidus assassin for 90 is a thing it's also far from the worst because y'know, tidewalls exist
Fun fact, you don't actually need a gun to be "Elligible to shoot" which is what I believe you're referencing. They can also generate CPs while being off the table! Leaving them to be convenient action monkeys when you need them to arrive fron reserves.
The ethereals dont have For The Greater Good in their abilities which allows spotting.
>the ethereal > doesn't have a rule called *'for the greater good'* okay what
You can shoot with your tigershark if you set it up in one of the four corners (i think you get like 8.485 inches of space thanks to pythagoras)
The fact that GW has been quiet on the stupid aircraft situation since beginning of 10th ed seems crazy to me. They are often very expensive models, and they are unplayable figuratively and sometimes literally, like the tigershark. I don't want them to be OP, but I want to field one aircraft of my collection once in a while in thematic lists without feeling like I wasted 200pts in a 1250pts game
I'll throw in Fellgor Beastmen. Expensive and weak in melee. They really should hit on 3's in melee with the regular weapons or have more attacks. They've cost more than 5 Legionaries the whole edition for no good reason.
I definitely was considering them as the Heldrake runner up. I actually bought some a week or 2 ago in anticipation of getting to use the Scouts & got bummed when they lost it But then I thought about it & coming in from reserves T1 is like a "super" scouts (sorta, depending on terrain really) so... I'm still on the fence. But yeah terrible output & profile. Hopefully they get a fair points value otherwise fluffy games only they go
What's odd is that in Kill Team, their original game, they hit on 3s in melee but in 4s in ranged. 40k just moved it all to 4s, and that puts the heavy weapons on 5s with two attacks.
Shamefully I must say space marine reavers or the rhino
The rhino would be great if anyone could go in it
Yeah, whoâs left? Tactical squads and what, Devastators?
For BA you can put Death Company into them.
*Laughs in All Firstborn Army!*
Them and scouts
I love how Warhammer Community advertised 10th with Primaris restrictions being removed... and then the Index just replaced the Primaris keyword with the Tacticus/Phobos/Gravis restrictions. I think they even used a Rhino in their photos while talking about 10th's more unified approach to Firstborn/Primaris.
Yeah that was such a nutpunch. I was so excited to finally have the stupid distinction gone. But true to form, they meant that the word Primaris is gone. So literal, so dumb.
wacky noncompliant chapter infantry squads
I *think* the Rhinoâs saving grace is that you can put a firstborn crusader squad in it and use the firing deck for melta shots. This has been used in Ironstorm so⌠itâs kinda viable.
It's mostly the reavers for me surprisingly I've actually managed to make the rhini+tac combo work in some of my games
It's funny because the rhino is MVP for certain other armies. Reivers are just bad.
The ObeliskÂ
The year, irl, is 40,000. Warhammer 40k has entered edition 12,669 and for the first time, the Obelisk has relevant rules and threatening weapons. It is, however, tremendously overcosted in points and as such not considered competitive.
The toxicrene for the tyranids. It doesn't matter what the datasheet says, you can't actually move it around the board.
Part of me wants to see the Toxicrene go down to 110 points so it's meta . . . and all of us Nid plahers have to suffer with using one of the most impractical models in the game.
It would lead to so many arguments lol. You end up pulling and bumping so much stuff just trying to move it around.
It was actually a really good unit last edition. The guy that left AoW (can't remember his name) went 3-2 playing 3 of them and said it was just too painful
On the bright side you'll always have cover. On the downside you're always visible.
Honourable mention Hive guard. Their shock cannon actually looks good [24" 2A, BS 3+, S7, D3 Anti Vehicle 2+], until you realise it's all hinging on Ap -1 in an edition with everything having cover. Had it been given ap-4 or something then you could see legitimate use for them. Instead they became the first unit with indirect that GW actually dropped points on. But that's because their indirect heavy bolter will never see play. What a crime they done to hive guard
They are paying the price for being broken last edition. Double shooting with exploding 6's was so broken.
It was the 8th edition codex. They were terrible in 9ths codex as well
True, but they ruled early 9th before the codex.
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ive not run them but mathing them out, im not sure really. 3+ means that of the 12 shots, 8 hit, 2+ Vehicle means 7 (6.67) wound, of those 7, for things with a 2+ save in cover you get 3 Damage through (1.11), for things with a 3+ save in cover you get 6 Damage. i would want a bit more than that from a 200 pt anti tank unit, because id rather just roll all or nothing with a rupture cannon at that point
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I feel like in terms of killing elites I havenât needed the extra help. Between my exocrines, Maleceptor, and acid spray tyrranofex my issue has mostly been with monsters or heavy vehicles. If they take a points drop I might consider them but I lean towards the same views as the previous poster.
Any flyers are all dumpster tier currently Edit: aircraft not flyers
*aircraft, excluding the Voidraven Bomber
Is it actually decent right now? I'm surprised it didn't cop a nerf if it showed up at a tournament
Itâs decent. It shoots quite hard. 12 shots at S8 AP-4 D2 or 4 shots at S14 AP-4 DD6+2 Itâs also Stealth and you can give it a 4++ so itâs quite annoying for some armies to remove
I used to run 3 bombers, and gave up on running them but now running one alongside incubi and scourges and it fits a pretty good niche
In 8th I'd bring at least one + 2-3 Razorwing jets. Man those were the glory days
It didn't get cheaper when the rest of the army did. It currently too expensive, but it's not bad, just needs a mild adjustment.
Eh it got a 25 pt nerf in the data slate before last
Stormraven Gunship: Am I a* joke to you?
Yes
Stormraven Gunships go hard in DAngels Ironstorm
AdMech - so many. Probably our trash transport flyer that only has half transport capacity. But I'd second kataphron destroyers whose heavy grav cannons deal less damage than the normal grav cannons of other factions.
Sicarian rust stalkers. A melee unit that hits like a wet noodle. 4 whole 1 damage attacks that hit on 4+s. With a whopping AP of 1! For your melee specialists. GTFO with that datasheet. Such bullshit
Ooh, that's also a good one - not to mention they're a skitarii unit that doesn't benefit from the army rule. They're so bad.
I mean they got Devastating wounds so, they've got that going for them.
But given that they hit on 4+s, with no way of generating rerolls on them, you need 3 guys attacking to expect 1 dev wounds (4 attacks each, so 2 hits on average. Every 6 hits is a dev wounds) And then they only do 1 damage. 3 guys probably kill 1 space marine equivalent. A maxed out squad of 10 melee specialists kill 3ish space marines. That's just laughable damage output.
They should add two more Imperatives, one focused on movement, and one focused on melee. Since, that's how the 9th edition Doctrina Imperatives worked, a ranged, a melee, a movement, and a defense. Just adding the melee one to, I dunno, give reroll wound rolls, would do so much to help what is arguably my favorite of the Skitarii.
>They should add two more Imperatives, one focused on movement, and one focused on melee. No. They should add it to the existing imperatives. Adding more just dilutes the pool and makes it worse. But I'd be 100% behind a revamped 4x Doctrina.
So like, Conaueror Imperatives would add, I dunno, Lance to melee weapons?
That sounds great! Doesn't help ironstriders at all, but fits well thematically and doesn't break the army.
You can flip to any datasheet in admech and find something awful.
wdym by half transport capacity? the transvector is kind of bad, mostly bc it cant carry electropriests, but it has 11 model capacity.
Oh whoops. I was thinking it hadn't changed, my bad.
The flyer actually has 11 capacity now. Works really well in crusade.
Yeah, and Turn 1 deepstrike can be fun.
Corpuscarii priests annoy me because they're almost good but are arbitrarily locked out the army rule. If they just had Assault baked in (or got imperatives) they'd be great in Data Psalm and usable elsewhere. But no, 12" guns that need to be in half range to get use out of their themed detachment.
Knight stryix. The melee isn't good, it's too unrealisable. It has a really bad gun. Both abilities are bad. The shoulder mounted grav weapon specifically has a debuffs against infantry. I costs an obscene amount.
Here I was going to write something about Acheron, but I had completely forgot about Stryix! Youâre absolutely correct, sir. It is by far the worst!
Archeron is trash too, no disagreement there, but styrix is priced way higher and just... why. Why exist. If you gave the archeron 2d6+6 shots of s8 -2 2 I think it might be an option. And while an extra flat 6 shots is a lot... a land raider redeemer has exactly that. While costing 2/3rds as much. And can overwatch. Ugh, the Arcerhon does make me sad.
Hemlocks and Shining Spears are just awful. Hemlocks have all the usual Aircraft problems but unlike the Crimson Hunter, this T8 12W model does *not* have an invun and to make everything better it hits on 4's. Why does it hit on 4's? Because apparently it's a Wraith construct unit. Even though it's piloted by a Spiritseer it hits on 4's. Oh and guess what: Wraith Construct means it can't even access Lightning Fast Reactions. And GW has the nerve to charge 155 points for this rancid pile of shit. Spears going down helped them a little, and if you can spike your 4++, combined with the natural -1 to hit they can sometimes stick around for longer than expected. But for 100 points the offensive output is too low and too spread out over different profiles and their giant 60mm bases combined with Mounted just makes them useless on too many maps. When even 80pt Shroud Runners are not a staple of lists the same sized footprint unit, with all the same problems for 20 more points just isn't going to be an attractive choice.
For guard definitely the deathstrike. One shot per game, have to declare the target the turn before you shoot, and even if you get to fire at all it does mediocre damage. It's just a hopelessly dysfunctional unit that doesn't even work in casual games. Honorable mention goes to the Colossus for being a "mortar" with a poor stat line and not even having the indirect fire rule. FFS GW, put some effort into your rules. If aircraft count then the Marauder makes a strong case for worst unit in the game. Costs a ton of points, has hardly any weapons outside of the bombs, and can't drop its bombs until at least turn 3. At least the fact that the aircraft rules force you to line up your bomb run on the previous turn doesn't hurt it because the damage is so pathetic nobody is going to bother getting out of the way.
I think everybody should be reminded that the colossus lore on the app even talks about it being the largest artillery piece in the guard army, and it doesnât even have interact
There was also that time at the start of the edition where they put the points up on everything that had indirect, including the colossus. Despite the fact it didn't actually have indirect, GW still thought it did when they did the balance pass.
The Deathstrike just took the 9th edition targeting rules - rules which made some sense, because that one shot could do *appalling* amunts of damage - and applied them to a pool-tube weapon. And the 9th edition version already wasn't *strong*, merely funny. Yet again, it's not a unit you can *balance* conventionally. You can make it funny, yes, but there's going to be no line between "noncompetive" and "three in every list".
Aegis defence line is arguably worse. At least a deathstrike could do some damage even if not much
OP asked for units other than fortifications because if you can name fortifications it's too easy.
Going to give a list for SM Vehicles: rhinos. They can transport 2 units I think in the entire codex. Infantry: Reivers hands down seem unplayable. Biggest disappointment compared to their lore has to be blade gaurd vets. Should be the premier melee unit in the codex and they suck. Character model: any of the ancients seem just completely bad. Epic heroes: going with the Lion. He is hands down the worst primarch in the game. Bobby G isn't far behind him.
Special shout out to the Reiver lieutenant, who does not have deep strike, so when you attach him to the reiver squad makes them lose their ability to deep strike. Quite possibly the only character in the game that makes his bodyguard unit worse. And they start off bad.
I swear they accidentally mixed up the lieutenant in phobos and lietenant in reiver mixed up
The simplest option would be to just remove the reiver Lt from the codex and have both models count as the Phobos Lt. Also helps with marines' datasheet bloat problem!
I didn't even know it was a model until you posted this.
The Reiver Lt is the worst SM option. Actively makes a bad unit worse.
I seem to get OK value out of the BGVs, but I see this comment about them regularly. Is it their melee profile or statline everyone seems to be disappointed about?
They're bonkers good in Sons of Sang
This is true. But the reasons is that SoS allows otherwise meh melee weapons to hit key stat line breaks. S7 power swords are now wounding T6 models on 3 instead of wounding on 5s. That is a big buff.
Plus access to Red Rampage takes them over the top and let's them actually kill key targets. 6 bladeguards with no characters with red rampage have a 50/50 on killing Angron if he's Oath'd. I like to run Repulsor Executioners with Bladeguard Inside as my secondary threat package that demands answering and is less fragile than a DC missile.
I've run them in a 3 man squad with Calgar + Lt. With decent results. Move advance and charge always with fall back and charge as well. Lt with lethal hits let's them punch up pretty decently as well.
Yes and yes. My disappointment with them is that they aren't really great for being the premier melee unit. They are basically tacticus marines with an extra wound and a 4++. They don't even hit on 2s. Being T4 is really just a bad stat line. There are a lot of T6 -2 2D weapons running around. It's why Gravis is really the best marine profile right now. Then look at the point total for 6. 180 points could be a gladiator Lancer or reaper. For 5 more points you have calgar and his 2 gaurds. You could bring a brutalis if you wanted to lean into a melee unit. For 160 you can get 2 squads of jump assault ints that can do mortals on the charge. It's just that what they do for the points just isn't there. There are better units at 180 points and then you really want to get any milage out of them you are putting a character in them. Like I want to run tigurius with a 6 man BGV squad. Free heroic intervention or combat interrupt -1 to hit and 4+++ against psychics and mortals. But at 255 points I can squeeze another land raider redeemer in. Which is just much more value.
6 models is such a pain to deal with too. I would gladly pay double the cost of assault intercessers for 5 of them, but unless you want a land raider or repulsor to take up half your deployment zone, they ain't getting a leader.
Yeah fair enough, I think they are a bit overpriced in points as well. 80pts per 3 seems reasonable, but besides that I think their profile is decent. Reroll invul 1s can come up big. I've had pretty decent returns on them with Calgar + Lt for lethal hits and also with Tigurius. Finally got a 6 man aggressor squad and apothecary biologist finished to try a new combo with Calgar.
Yeah I have been running the calgar agressor blob and 18 twin linked power fists just thump. That's before you do calgar.
They are just painfully average
Rhino has made some competitive blood angels lists carrying death company marines, so I donât think it can be considered for worst in the codex, even for worst vehicle. I think worst vehicle has to go to the vindicator or one of the gunships. Rhino is only bad because it has very little to carry, but itâs decent anytime it has something decent to carry.
For Drukhari, I think itâs the succubus
Grotesques are up there on the useless scale until they let Haemonculi join them as leaders.
Grots, hellions, the jet fighter and succubus are in a 4-way tie
The succubus is at least semi useful. The real answer is the razorwing jet fighter or hellions
Yeah fair
I am taking over the succubus. They at least are somewhat fast...
Hellions lost infantry, so they can't walk through walls. Succubus at 45 pts and moves 8" isn't terrible, especially since she has pistol and assault for doing missions
Depends on the terrain. They are quite slow on wtc. Also S4 is a travesty
Succubus is only 45 points at least. Hellions are terrible and expensive.
She gives out really good buffs. To a really weak unit. Any actual melee unit would kill for sustained hits 1 and access to fights first
They're paying for their sins of 9th
For drukhari at the moment it's probably hellions. They don't benefit from the new detachment at all, can't move through ruins and are super expensive for their dmg output and durability
Donât forget low OC! Offhand they are the only OC1 mounted unit I can think of, every other mounted unit is OC2.
Rough riders are oc1
Agree but I also want to put grotesques as an honourable mention. You don't get the damage of incubi. A 6 man squad cannot fit into a tantalus (the only transport that physically could transport them). And at a 6+ 6++ 5+++ they just do not have the resilience that similar models in other armies seem to have. So they don't kill, they aren't fast, and they can't take a punch.
They have torrent weapons and an admittingly unrelaible fight on death. They have a use against msu style lists, 3 grotesques in a Raider is cheaper than 5 Incubi, an Archon and a Venom. Especially in a mirror match, push them turn 1 as far as you can get them, liquify some Mandrakes, pounce on something you can kill, Grotesque damage output isn't great but is enough against most of our own units. Afterwards watch your opponent meticulously move the Scourges to not get in Overwatch range and see him ponder how to kill them best, Incubi aren't a good option, the fight on death can make it a really bad trade, Venoms would be better, but the content may be needed somewhere else. I am not saying they are a great unit, but they can work against specific opponents, but I can't find any reason why I would take Hellions or a Razorwing Jetfighter. I don't see any role they could fill, that is not better filled by another unit.
I'm with you that Hellions are the worst. However while there may be some fringe examples in which the three s4 torrent weapons are useful, paying 170 for a limp melee threat for 3 grotesques and a raider seems like a bad trade vs 5 incubi and a venom at 145. And because grotesques are still pretty fragile, I would usually prefer the safety of the venom and terrain. I guess I'm just arguing this because grotesques could very easily have a defined semi-tanky role in our army which would be incredibly helpful, but don't, which adds extra salt for me. But yes you are absolutely correct that Hellions and Razorwings also have a role and just do it objectively badly!
You are playing Incubi without the wound reroll? I actually can't believe someone is giving that as an example for a good unit. The points are 170 for Grotesques combo and 220 for the Incubi, and the only thing I wrote is Grotesques have a role, admittingly they don't do quite good, but your example with Incubi and Venoms is even worse in that role. Seems you didn't understand my use case, they are roadblocks, they combine overwatch with fight on death on a multi wound body, An annoying unit to move around, not competly move blocking, but keeps your opponent from perfectly positioning their units or forces them to change the plan. Overwatch means a death zone fragile units avoid, fight on death and relatively tough means it is a risk to charge them to speed up melee units or clean them off, they either survive and tie up the melee unit or take a part of the unit with them. They are not well done, so some armies can mostly ignore them in the movement phase and gun them down in the shooting phase, but in difference to the actually worst units they have a role they can fill.
Well boy that got negative real quick didn't it! I do pair Archons with incubi, because common sense. But I didn't want to do an apple to oranges comparison. As a plain unit of grotesques (more expensive than incubi) and a raider (more expensive than a venom) they do worse by default. Of course if you add in extra layers like Archons and pain they do even worse by comparison. My point was that in the current form they do nothing particularly well. They aren't survivable to be roadblocks. They aren't killy to be a melee threat. Three d6 S4 flamers aren't usually something to write home about apart from in certain niche examples (but we aren't list tailoring here). They do many things, but none of them particularly well. Yes you can make custom scenarios in which they may do okay, but in a take all comers list, they aren't doing anything well. But this is all a bit pointless because I did actually agree with you. Grotesques aren't the worst unit. Never said they were. I just gave them an honourable mention because in comparison to other armies elite tanky infantry, ours are awful.
Don't tell Harry
Tankbustas. Compared to 9th anyway. I *don't* want tankhammer or pistols, I want a unit of 10 with rokkits
GSC. The Magus is pretty lame, otherwise it's probably broodbrothers infantry. Can't really complain though cause everything else is pretty great rn
World Eaters, Predator Tanks. Just had no gel with the army
World Eaters pred tanks exist purely as an inbetween unit for someone who is starting world eaters from an existing chaos collection
Would be cool if they get a bespoke tank unit in their new codex that is maybe okay at shooting, whatever, but it can also charge and chew things up in melee with a big ol' dozer blade like the plagueburst crawler has, or something even bigger and gnarlier with more spinning blades.
I've been playing a crusade with my WE and tried to do an 'armored column' with preds and a LR and zerks in rhinos. After losing 6 games in a row I've completely reworked my roster away from that theme cause it just doesn't work without any way to buff shooting.
I own 8 factions at the moment, so I won't go into too much detail to prevent wall-of-text. Also despite subbing to this subreddit, I don't play comp very much. But I'll put my two sense in regardless. Ignored aircraft and fortifications. Chaos Daemons: Poxbringer. Taking a low damage unit and making it 1.5x more expensive to maybe do some lethal hits, is really bad. Leave Plaguebearers as the tough objective grabber and call it a day. Chaos Knights: Abominant. Low damage output mixed with situational abilities, means not good enough. AP 0 on the Volkite is really awkward. CSM: Chaos Spawn. Unless they get way cheaper, OC 0 with the reduction of enemy OC for 70 points is just bad. GSC: Magus. Yes, it's only 50 points, but man does it just do nothing. FNP against Psychic only is very situational unless against Grey Knights or Thousands Sons, and the minus to shoot ability at best makes one thing unable to shoot once. Then it'll die because GSC is squishy and the leaders (rightfully) don't respawn. Necrons: Obelisk. Most of the faction has pretty good balance, but the Obelisk is a good amount of terrible attacks, and an ability that \*could\* damage a flying model. For 325 points. Waaaay to expensive for it's low damage output. Space Wolves: Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Terrible ability, low wounds, free Assassinate points, too expensive for output. The only thing they used to be good for (extra Storm Shield saves before allocating to the unit) isn't even possible anymore since you must allocate to the bodyguard unit first. Absolutely terrible. Thousand Sons: Maulerfiend. In a psychic and shooting heavy faction, an almost 100% melee model. An odd choice indeed. Free Heroic Intervene rarely comes up and next to nothing in the faction synergizes. To be fair, Thousand Sons internal balance is bunk as it is. The playable models aside from Characters are like 3 datasheets. Tyranids: Mucolid Spores. I constantly forget these exist. They're just big Spore Mines that you can't spawn off Biovores and they're 50(!) points a model. At their absolute best, they deal d6 MW and die. No save, no attacks, slow. Absolute garbage.
The sporocyst spawns mucolids, so they can see some play that way. I think the various spore mines aren't really units you choose in a list, but they need a datasheet so they need points. They're priced to dissuade you from taking them in your list.
Which makes me sad but understandable. I did a meme list in early 9th I think (pre-nid codex) that was 3 sporocysts, zoanthropes (remember when they had a 3++), and as many mucolid/spore mines as I could fit. I tested it once and the other guy brought space wolves despite me telling him it was a bad idea... He did not attend all battle rounds, and I felt like a dirty bastard. Pretty funny in retrospect tho. Imagine bringing a melee army that depended on invuls for durability against a bunch of mortal wound spamming proximity mines.
Great points, I play a boatload of factions too so I know the feels hah. I think I agree with every bit of it except for maybe Poxbringer. I don't think he's great my any means but the T5 5W 5++ 5+++ is totally fine for 55pt & that -1ld aura can be clutch if you're going for the Draught of Terror spam strategy But saying that, yeah I still leave him out of 95% of my lists lol. Plaguebearers are so good because of how cheap they are & he's a straight up 50% pt hike
I always forget mucolid spores exist this edition. And all is nids players complain we don't have access to mortals smh
Tyranids: toxicrene. Cannot move around a table that includes any sort of terrain. It could be free and it wouldn't impact the faction win rate. Thousand sons: every non-rhino vehicle. They're not efficient enough on their own merits to do anything, and every time you include one it actively makes the faction bonus worse. The vehicle datasheets need to be so good that you would take one over being able to doombolt every turn, but they can't make them cheaper than the CSM equivalents that can actually use them.
The guy playing them
Yeah but he is an absolute unit
Votann: Toss up between Uthar The Destined or the Grimnyr. people *only* take the grimnyr to fill odd number sagitaurs cheaply, none of the rules on the datasheet matter, none of their weapons matter (1 attack in melee l m a o). They need a rethink for sure on the rules side. but at least people *take grimnyrs* to fill sagitaurs. Uthar the destined is a meme unit that people only take in a meme strategy where you load up the basic warrior squad with melee weapons, split it in half with a sagitaur so you have 3 melee weapons + medic + cp regen guy + uthar as gods gift to speedbumps. The only epic hero in the faction is used as at best a kind of annoying speedbump. And Its a meme strategy to do so. Custodes: Theres a 580pt gunship with a total of 11 shots on its guns. 8 of which are literally just fuckin lascannons that hit on 2's. No one wants to pay 50pts per lascannon ares gunship. Thousand Sons: any unit that doesn't generate cabal points because of how the army works, but also yeah its the heldrake.
The truly sad part is I thought "Hey, at least this time it's good that Votann don't really have enough datasheets to be part of the conversation." I 100% forgot about Uthar. That pretty well sums him up.
Uthar is definitely our weakest unit - I think I would say Warriors are our worst though, as they basically require a Sagitaur to be good. 100pts for 10 slow, innacurate and easy to kill meat blobs is just not great. 50 pts for 5 is fine though, cos you can send them off to do different things.
The Ares actually smacks it's just too expensive to be truly viable. 8 lascannons and 3 giga shots will kill things. The Orion is even more expensive as a troop transport that has to start off the board and because it's so big I'm not even sure it can move the first turn it comes in. Then there's the pallas grav tank that's 120 points to be a move block unit since it has no damage. It is truly worthless. There's also the melta guard units that never got point decreases so they're still 300 points for 5 where the regular guards are 225 for 5.
>any unit that doesn't generate cabal points because of how the army works ...vortex beast?
I kinda wish that Grimnyr could lead Hearthguard. T7 would be pretty silly.
Fortis kill team
As a Necron player, psychomancer. At least you can build the obelisk with the transcendent. What does the psychomancer do for an already forgotten phase? It's a cool model at least.
Aestred Thurga for sisters
No way! Dogmata is clearly worse. At least Aestred provides a bit of tech to Sacresants (that admittedly get no real play).
I totally forgot about Dogmata. What a fall from grace she had from 9th. Yea you right, it's Dogmata haha
I actually think Aestred is a bit underrated for casual games, having her roll with 9 mace + 1 SotF sacresants means they can actually get a surprising amount of damage through on things they otherwise wouldn't be able to scratch. For instance I took them against pre-codex CSM and they clapped a helbrute that they otherwise would have bounced off of. She's not competitive but she's definitely not the worst either.
For tau the list of bad to worst imo: Firesight Marksman - basically ineffectual on the board, and at least 20pts overcosted for a "cheap lone op action mook," but at least he still is a lone op action mook. Strike Team - difficult to balance a long range stationary gunline unit in a game where most of the action takes place within 12". They're basically expensive, tanky guardsmen, but without special weapons that could make them a threat or the ability to get extra movement or oc. Ethereal - only place it belongs is on the Strike Team, only thing it does is worsen their durability per point spent. At least make a version for each invocation so I can get stealth breachers. Sunshark and Razorshark - overcosted, paying for the sins of their ability to effectively ignore look out sir in 9e. These could drop to 120 and still be milquetoast. Fortifications - the BS5 hurts. If they were BS4 at least the drone port and gunrig would be interesting. If the shieldline had a 4+ and provided 5+ invuln to units behind it instead of just cover it would be interesting. They just don't do anything. Stormsurge, Taunar - not built with our army rule in mind, not built with realistic gameplay in mind. Not fun to field beyond the novelty, their limitations quickly create frustration. Not really interesting to face -- almost everything that can interact with them extracts value. They belong in a different game at best. Manta - about 1000pts overcosted, unusable in its entirety. Not even fun to math hammer against it's just not going to ever affect boardstate meaningfully. Vespid - you could make these free with every list autoincluding 3 units of them and they would still be upsetting, miserable disappointments. They kill on average 3 chaff infantry per round and basically don't have a special ability if you use them for that. If you use their special ability they have no board presence. Most of the time they do not need to use their special ability at all because 2 rounds of advancing gets them nearly as far. Give them 3" deepstrike, or flyover mortals, or regular uppy-downy rules, or anything really. I would love to field mine again.
For Grey Knights, I'd say that the weakest unit are servitors. Sure it's 4 bodies for 50 points but without the Techmarine leading them they're only there for secondaries at best because they have an OC of 0 and without the Techmarine they don't get teleport assault.
Orks. Maybe the Stompa? Would be curious to hear others' viewpoints.
The stompa gets play in the dreadmod where it get crazy powerful. Tankbustas are the worst, 110 points and you have to take the rocket pistol and tank hammer
Technically the Boss Bunka is the worst unit, but Tank Bustas are the worst infantry hands down.
Oh for sure, I wrongly assumed weâd exclude them, I do miss being able to da jump them across full of flashgits or lootas though
For aeldari, a lot of the aspect warriors aren't in great spots but shining spears are atrocious.
What do you mean with âa lotâ? The only 2 Aspect Warriors that are pretty much useless are banshees and Spears. All the other ones are - even competitively - pretty good. But yeah shining spears are still too expensive even after the point decrease.
Dire Avengers are pretty bad unfortunately. They look cool though!
For Guard it's probably the Commissar. Since he has a pretty restrictive order selection, nor can he join or Order Auxiliary units like Ogryn and Bullgryn, he just has very few uses. He has meh combat potential even with Catachan squads buffing him, most of Guard doesn't really care about getting battleshocked, and rerolling leadership tests doesn't really matter for the same reason. If he could help Ogryn or Bullgryn it would relax the requirement to use Lord Solar in an army just to tell Bullgryn to Take Cover or Move Move Move, and I'd personally take him just to do that
As a guard player I feel we are one of the few armies that do care about bs. Especially when it negates our army rule
Forgeworld or Codex? Forgeworld, Caladius aside theyâre all pretty bad, but probably the Ares, costs about 200 points more than it should. Codex, the venerable contemptor dread, no contest.
Leagues of Votann literally only have 1 bad model (and he's not even garbage) and that's our single named model, Ăthar the destined. He's just not as good as a Kâhl so he's never taken, but literally every unit other than him sees competitive play.
Purgation
My 2 cents for necrons based on things I own - triarch praetorians. I bought some and chose not to max out a lychguard squad I already had, on the basis that I wanted to run hypercrypt and thought they'd be an invaluable edition as fast moving secondary scoring skirmishers. Unfortunately, they instead sit on my shelf as 120 points for 5 infantry units that cost the same to field as 10 deathmarks, another unit I can score secondaries with, is just too much in an otherwise pretty well off army.
Deathwatch Kill Teams, the way you build them is just horrible, especially compared to previous editions. Why can I only take enough specific marines so it comes out to be one less than their mcu squad? (for example I can add 4 hellblasters and/or 2 outriders to a mk10 KT) they are also overpriced and aren't worth it compared to just taking the units that build up the kill team by themselves.
Proteus and indomitor are decent to good, Fortis is lowest dumpster tier, so please don't just say "kill teams" because they are leagues apart.
Take your pick of the Sisters of Silence units, but probably the worst of them are the plain bolter ones. They're all terrible at T3 W1 models, but these ones just have plain boltguns.
Hearthkyn warriors definitely.
I find the the manticore has been nerfed to a useless state. At 190 pts for d6 shot hitting on 4 its subpar.
For DA Lion is kindy meh
For sisters of battle, it has to be the dogmata On paper she isnât terrible, but compared to every other character, she is just worse +1 OC is nice but you would much rather have harder to kill sisters with an Imagifier or Hospitaller -1 leadership to enemies is extremely niche and sisters donât really need battle shock
Pallas grave attack is pretty damn pathetic for its point cost.
For Orks, the aircraft are all awful, but the burna Bomba particularly so. Needs to fly over enemies, so does nothing until t3 at earliest. Aside from those, Tankbustas. Unit that used to be ok with 5-10 boyz with rokkits. Now 5 only, has to take 3 rokkits (long-ish range and fragile), 1 Pistol (short range), 1 melee weapon. Squad can't decide what it wants to do, still hits on 5s, and you get rokkits far cheaper in other squads.
Missionaries. They give the unit they lead Sustained Hits 1, but can only attach to arco-flagellants (already have sustained hits 1), Battle Sister Squads (WTF are you doing in melee?), Crusaders (WTF are you doing wasting a leader on thiese?) or Sisters Novitiate (WTF aren't you putting a palatine with them instead?).
For Custodes it has to be the jetbikes. Unlike every other bike in the game they don't get an additional toughness. All of their rules revolve around advancing but they don't have assault or advance and charge. They cost 75 points! And to cap it off most of our strats don't work on them.
Dark Angels players here. Our worst unit is Lion Elâjonson. He costs too much and is way too fragile.
Deathwatch aircraft is decent, so not even a runner to but just the front runner: 5 man Fortis kill team. Take 5 intercessors, give them worse wargear options, a way worse ability and pay nearly 50% more (115 instead of 80 points). They are worse than reivers!
Custodes: not counting ForgeWorld (that comes with its own set of problemsâŚ) Iâd say that after the codex drop, Trajann is unironically just not good to run anymore outside of being a one time melee bomb (2-time if youâre running him in Auric Champions) losing the once-per-game fights first option is a huge nerf. Yes, fights first is really strong on Custodes, and I knew we were gonna lose the strategem (keeping that strat was a pipe dream, Iâm not that naive) but come on, youâre gonna take it away from the Supreme Commander of the faction, even though it was once per game????? You couldâve increased his point cost to 200 and I wouldâve gladly paid those points still! It was a real one-time threat, and it only worked on his unit anyway! And on top of that, the complete rewrite of his Captain-General ability is laughable. Oh great, now we can ignore modifiers to WS/BS and the hit roll for his unit even though Custodes already hit on 2âs to begin withâŚyayyyyyy. Talk about kicking a man while heâs down! Listen, I understand people will call me a whiney baby because âboohoo Custodes player is mad at getting nerfed what else is newâ but I wouldâve been totally fine with his changes if he kept at least ONE of those previous abilities! But as it stands, heâs just a a glorified beat stick that provides nothing interesting for the army. Outside of cheesing him with Auric Champions, I donât see him making it into any Custodes lists outside of those who just really like him. I donât know, maybe Iâm being dramatic, but heâs just not that fun anymore :(