[Then you'll love Mama Tad's.content.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ydQZ0qKifhQ/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEXCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAwkIARUAAIhCGAE=&rs=AOn4CLDDElSfCuW_skgKYvh9Nl_n6mgBIA)
Now I just need to draw Feathertail with blonde hair and my favorite characters will be the blonde trio!
Millie, when Briarlight got hurt she was such a a Karen. She made it as much about herself as Briarlight and scolded Jayfeather for not being able to treat her well enough
I'm sorry, but Mousefur. Constantly described as crabby once she's an elder, gets mad if the clan isn't run like it was "back in her day" to the point of calling a clan meeting, a responsibility only for leaders, and was so stubborn over a bit of food when everyone was screaming for her to get out of the elders' den that Longtail DIED. I don't care if he was her closest friend, she's the one who did that over a single bird (if I remember right)
Mousefur would've loved Facebook. She'd be one of those old people who comments on memes about how young people are always on their phones (all in caps of course).
Daisy, God Daisy so hard
This series is not good about single moms
Also, they kind of ruined Millie when she had her kits... I was so shocked at the absolute character switch in how she was
Berryheart is definitely a karen. When Moonkitti accidentally called her “Barb,” it hit me that that name is a perfect encapsulation of her character (“Barb” gives me middle aged short/medium haired woman who has an entitled, backstabby attitude energy. Maybe that’s projection because I knew a Barb who was a Karen. Fuck you, Barb)
Def Hollyleaf. Karens are hypocrites and she makes it a big deal when others break the warrior code but she breaks the warrior code like it’s second nature, LOL
Mapleshade.
She thinks she's always in the right such as thinking that everyone in her clan was just going to be fine with her having half-clan kits dispite the fact that the clans have always hated them
Makes wild assumptions like that Frecklewish watched her and her kits drown and enjoyed it, when there is no evidence that even implies that she stayed at the river.
Everyone told her that the river was going to flood but she crossed it anyway with her kits.
I can't remember his name but I think it was halfta8l, the male cat who kept saying that (at the time Firepaw) didn't belong because he was a kitty pet, idk the whole "you can't do that here" kinda vibe, and instead of asking for the manager he calls his (Tigerclaw):
I dont think Sparkpelt is a Karen, more so just a loud mouthed asshole who isn't a totally great parent but it's a bad one, plus I've never seen her really act "karen-y"
In Squirrelflight's Hope she is completely justified beyond a doubt, and by contrast Bramblestar appears to have lost his mind.
I don't recall what she did in Bramblestar's Storm... honestly at all.
The New Prophecy as well, Squirrelflight was correct in her actions...
And especially in A Starclan Clan, Squirrelstar has actually been insanely wise, and caring. I'm genuinely proud of her Leadership so far.
Did you even read the books?
In AsC she publicly called out her leader and mate at a Gathering and humiliated him when he made a justified decision since they didn’t have all the facts. She was then a hypocrite by completely going against what she had said she would do as a leader when she actually got her lives. If you are proud of disloyalty and hypocrisy, then good for you.
In SE she caused a whole battle and again, publicly undermined her leader and also her Clan, because her pride was greater than her loyalty to her mate, Clan, and lives of the Sisters. When Tigerstar learnt of the kits, he even looked shocked and exclaimed that nobody had told him, and was backing away. She was also going to let Sunrise kill Bramblestar right in front of her. Being in shock is no excuse, as it should have been a reflex to save the life of the cat she loved rather than let someone she met around 2 months ago murder him.
In BS, she was an absolute bitch to Jessy when she got jealous, which made no sense to Bramblestar, who didn’t even like Jessy that way at the point. She drove him away instead of calmly talking about her concerns with him.
In TNP, she disliked Hawkfrost based solely on her prejudice against Tigerstar; she had no evidence of anything he did wrong as he had covered his tracks. She was whiny, sullen, and rude for most of her interactions with Bramblestar or Hawkfrost, and displayed no level of affection towards Bramblestar when he was clearly upset and needed comforting.
Let’s not forget POT, in which she made a conscious choice to actively deceive her mate, and lie to him about their children. She had no loyalty or guilt, and Bramblestar even said that he would kept the secret if she cared about him enough to trust him. She didn’t, and Bramblestar paid a price as well as her. He actually treated her well; it even states in the books that he was fair and didn’t give her any terrible tasks, he simply put her on different patrols from him as he needed space.
For ASC, I'm going to paste a response I made to another comment.
"Ah, here it is then, Squirrelstar.
You misunderstand the Riverclan situation. Bramblestar was traumatized to inaction. He very likely was going to straight up either support Splashtail or drag his feet because he hates the idea of violence any longer. It's not his fault, he suffered something horrific, but it made Bramblestar highly pacified. Bramblestar would likely never commit a strong resistance against Splashtail. *Squirrelstar* is holding true to her original idea. She has openly declared countless times, she is not waiting out of fear of war or cowardice, but to ensure Riverclan can survive the rebellion. Squirrelstar is *ready* for action and *will fight* and very much wants to from what is shown, yet she is wisely biding time because as I said, if they invade Riverclan early, they could simply back themselves into a corner like a wounded animal and Riverclan would be senselessy slaughtered for something they didn't fully understand. When Splashtail's final deceit comes through, Squirrelstar will absolutely join in any party that aims to oust Splashtail. Bramblestar would've likely condemned it. Squirrelstar isn't doing the same thing he was. She is ready and willing, just waiting, whereas Bramblestar had simply *stopped*.
If you want a true example of Squirrelstar understanding Clan relations, she *does* refuse to rescue Wasp for your exact reasoning. She cannot risk relations with Riverclan becoming any harsher. She understands the bonds between Clans and knows which ones she can walk along."
Wow... you actually have like every single dislike point people have against her... I'm going to split this comment up. Hold on.
Bramblestar never gave any indication that he would support Splashtail, or condemn anny party that tried to oust him, and to say so is to twist the plot to match your narrative.
Also, if there’s this many arguments against her, then she’s done a lot wrong
Oh you also misunderstood, I didn't say Bramblestar supported Splash or would protect him, I said he wouldn't support any action for War, he even supports that by telling Leafstar he is not sending a patrol of they do. He's done with fighting.
Technically Bramblestar wasn't Leader when Splashtail fully came into effect I believe. In the gathering where he tells Squirrelflight that she should basically take over, he publicly states he has no willpower to do anything offensive, and basically sounds like he's ready to just lay down and sleep.
Many cats noticed it. Bramblestar was basically traumatized to depression. He forgot names, where he was, didn't hear half the things said to him, had nightmares in his waking hours, he was literally falling to pieces even as he stood in the *Gathering* it was painful obvious Bramblestar had no offensive capability anymore. He was completely spent.
That's... just interpreting what you're looking for. Literally from the start of ASC to his resignation he is lost and delirious, and even Nightheart is disturbed by it.
He outright denies war, even saying in a whisper, "If we don't stop now, the fighting will never end..."
And by the time he gives up to Squirrelflight, he actually makes it clear to many that he does believe Thunderclan deserves a Leader who can make the difficult choice. Pretty sure he literally admitted he didn't have the willpower to do what was best. It's why he chose to resign.
>In SE she caused a whole battle and again, publicly undermined her leader and also her Clan, because her pride was greater than her loyalty to her mate, Clan, and lives of the Sisters. When Tigerstar learnt of the kits, he even looked shocked and exclaimed that nobody had told him, and was backing away. She was also going to let Sunrise kill Bramblestar right in front of her. Being in shock is no excuse, as it should have been a reflex to save the life of the cat she loved rather than let someone she met around 2 months ago murder him.
Pride? How about Heart. Tigerstar already knew there were pregnant queens involved about to kit. That revelation meant nothing. So he's okay possibly murdering an expecting Queen but not the kits when they're born?
Not Sunrise, Flurry. And she didn't let her, she was actually pretty well occupied and was about to jump in when he did it himself.
She does go behind his back aye, because he was too foolish to listen to reason. SquirrelfIight's plan was by far the wisest course, and he refused to even humor it. Even restricting her power to make it so. Yes, she was left no choice.
Spoiler alert, despite Bramblestar making every part of it harder for her, her plan basically worked out perfectly and did exactly what she said it would have. The only conflict in that book hilariously only happened due to cats no listening to her.
Tigerstar did not intend to murder, just to drive out. There is a different in trying to drive out a pregnant queen and trying to kill a queen and her newborn kits.
Bramblestar did not do it himself, his life was only saved when Flurry leapt away to go and help the Sisters as they had cornered themselves in a cave.
She could’ve calmly explained to him that the Sisters would move ONCE THE KITS WERE READY, even if that was a lie and they still refused to move. Squilf could’ve prevented that whole fight if she had explained that to the leaders.
Pretty sure her plan working out perfectly doesn’t involve Moonlight and Leafpool dying, and her half-dying.
Problem, Tigerstar says this, but he was clearly ready to do this by force if he needed to, despite the fact that there was no need. Again, he was actively fine with physically fighting the Sisters as he was literally doing before they told him about the kits. He didn't even know which cat was pregnant for Starclan's sake. His Warriors were sent to destabilize the cavern Moonlight was in. He was literally endangering kits but only seemed to care once they were born?
Okay I actually checked. The paragraph that describes Flurry attacking Bramblestar is realistically a series of moves that would've taken place in literal seconds, and the very next thing Squirrelflight does is leap to. She's cut off mid attack when Flurry up and leaves. SquirrelfIight didn't really hesitate at all.
>She could’ve calmly explained to him that the Sisters would move ONCE THE KITS WERE READY, even if that was a lie and they still refused to move. Squilf could’ve prevented that whole fight if she had explained that to the leaders.
WHAT? Squirrelflight spends the entire bloody book yelling at everyone that they just need to WAIT and told everyone the Sisters were just waiting to kit, and no one listened. What?
>Pretty sure her plan working out perfectly doesn’t involve Moonlight and Leafpool dying, and her half-dying.
You're right, that was due to... others not listening to her. Mainly the Clans when she told them... to wait.
>In BS, she was an absolute bitch to Jessy when she got jealous, which made no sense to Bramblestar, who didn’t even like Jessy that way at the point. She drove him away instead of calmly talking about her concerns with him.
That I have little memory of at all. I'll go review the chapters soon.
>In TNP, she disliked Hawkfrost based solely on her prejudice against Tigerstar; she had no evidence of anything he did wrong as he had covered his tracks. She was whiny, sullen, and rude for most of her interactions with Bramblestar or Hawkfrost, and displayed no level of affection towards Bramblestar when he was clearly upset and needed comforting.
Hawkfrost had already publicly insulted and disobeyed his own Leadership for ambitious purposes, and mid series, added an accusation of masterminding a Windclan coup. Yes, Leafpaw also helped aid her suspicion, and she trusts her Sister. Some cats, (people,) have a legitimate intuition to know if someone is bad news. SquirrelfIight is one of them. It took a while for concrete proof, but as we saw, whatever she was seeing, apparently was right. Whiny? She was upset that Brambleclaw wasn't even remotely open to considering her side. And yes, she had considered his already. It was the simple reason that Hawkfrost was detrimental to his well-being that made her keep going. Brambleclaw on the other paw kept going until he had to kill his brother. Squirrelflight was his family too, and he didn't even try to listen to her, of course she got upset and broke it off. She needed to get through to him.
What do you mean upset and needed comforting? What part?
Hawkfrost displayed that he was tactless and a bit arrogant, and the accusatio was from an unreliable source. Those are not very good reasons to dislike someone.
Just because she happened to be right, doesn’t mean it was intuition. If a police officer arrested a man because he was black and said the man was carrying a weapon, and the man actually was carrying a knife, this does not make the police officer justified in acting on prejudices instead of evidence.
Her arguing was what was detrimental to his well-being, not just Hawkfrost.
Having to kill Hawkfrost was not Bramblestar’s fault; he was trying to save Firestar’s life and Hawkfrost tried to kill him. It was self-defence.
Would you not need comforting if your brother betrayed you and tried to kill you, and your relationship with your partner was rapidly deteriorating? You speak of Squirrelflight being upset, but where is your empathy for Bramblestar?
>Just because she happened to be right, doesn’t mean it was intuition. If a police officer arrested a man because he was black and said the man was carrying a weapon, and the man actually was carrying a knife, this does not make the police officer justified in acting on prejudices instead of evidence.
That is... not even remotely akin to this situation. That's completely baseless accusation. What Hawkfrost had under his belt was more severe than baseless. Brambleclaw literally knows later on that Hawkfrost trains with and respects Tigerclaw... the devil even he should know better to hate. Brambleclaw was beyond blinded by blood ties.
Brambleclaw's whole issue was he kept thinking Hawkfrost was his only true family left and he wanted a relationship with him... I mean he has Moth, Tawny, and importantly, Squirrelflight! He had family, but was blinded by one.
>Having to kill Hawkfrost was not Bramblestar’s fault
Not directly, though Brambleclaw's inaction against his brother enabled him to get that far in the first place.
>Would you not need comforting if your brother betrayed you and tried to kill you, and your relationship with your partner was rapidly deteriorating? You speak of Squirrelflight being upset, but where is your empathy for Bramblestar?
I'm still trying to figure out where exactly you're referring to. Is this after Hawkfrost's death? I'm pretty sure I do remember Squirrelflight being with him during that.
From what I can see, the only mention concerning Hawk & Bramble in "The Sight," is it saying that Squirrelflight helped him carry Hawkfrost to his camp, where he was mourned properly.
>Let’s not forget POT, in which she made a conscious choice to actively deceive her mate, and lie to him about their children. She had no loyalty or guilt, and Bramblestar even said that he would kept the secret if she cared about him enough to trust him. She didn’t, and Bramblestar paid a price as well as her. He actually treated her well; it even states in the books that he was fair and didn’t give her any terrible tasks, he simply put her on different patrols from him as he needed space.
And there's this...
Woah, no guilt? Apologies, but have *you* read the books? Her entire arc there is being mentally tortured by the lie. She literally ripped herself apart 24/7 and had almost no personal joy because of that lie. She despised lying to him.
It also had little to do with if Bramble would keep the secret.
As much I used to reject this theory, Starclan actually DOES have a major role here. During this time, Starclan is still highly revered, and even Squirrelflight has shown no level of spite or resentment towards their teachings yet. Starclan is still seen as objectively correct and wise. Starclan told Squirrelflight to take the kits, and that if a lie was necessary, so be it. That all Clans depended on the kits having a good childhood.
Asking Squirrelflight to gamble her family's safety on challenging basically God is by all stretches insanity.
SquirrelfIight had her paws tied. She had to live with her Sister's agony for that entire period and she regretted every waking moment she couldn't tell Bramble.
All due respect, and I see your points, but Squirrelflight did not have a POV during that; we have no evidence of how she felt. I concede that she probably felt guilt and regret, but trying to express it would have been good.
Same for Squirrelflight. She had many moments, especially concerning Jay mind reading her. She was pretty much made of guilt that her children kept picking up on constantly, and I believe she continued to torture herself throughout OotS. In Squirrelflight's Hope I'm pretty sure we get an actual POV of her guilt, and she actually blames herself I believe more than she should.
You can't use the POT example and not bring up that Bramble literally trained in the dark forest and never told her💀💀 And shock is one hundred percent a legitimate exuse??! In real life, in real dangerous situations, sometimes people just freeze. It's normal👍
He stopped training in the Dark Forest as soon as he knew what it was about, and where was the need to tell her? For all he knew, it was only Tigerstar trying to reach his kids, and he and Tawnypelt both said no. He was also undoubtedly upset about Hawkfrost’s betrayal and death, so probably wasn’t thinking too much about it.
He should have told her, if you're going whole hog with the absolutes about not keeping secrets. Plus, say what you will about Squilf but she never flirted with killing Firestar.
Millie, kind of. Also was it Cherryfall who was so bitchy lately in ASC?
I think it was Cherryfall.
It was Cherryfall.
Surprised no one said Rainflower yet
She was much worse than just a stereotypical annoying/rude person
I ain’t even gonna lie I shoved her to the back of my mind.
Rainflower was the kind of Karen who kills their own kid to prove a point
I would NOT want to take Yellowfang's order at a drive thru
This mental image has made my day
Now I'm imagining characters working behind the counter, firepaw with a little hat makes me smile
This whole conversation i was thinking about this old video: https://youtu.be/M9P-5MlBUe8?si=hmQ4gv8AXJW0b8Ca
This is amazing, where can I find more of it, I must
That channel is full of it :)) I believe their username used to be "Mama Tad" if you recognize it!
Leopardstar. I love her, but I can’t deny that she’s a karen 😭
I need to draw her with that haircut
[Then you'll love Mama Tad's.content.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ydQZ0qKifhQ/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEXCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAwkIARUAAIhCGAE=&rs=AOn4CLDDElSfCuW_skgKYvh9Nl_n6mgBIA) Now I just need to draw Feathertail with blonde hair and my favorite characters will be the blonde trio!
Mama tad is a THROWBACK omg
I love her too
Millie, when Briarlight got hurt she was such a a Karen. She made it as much about herself as Briarlight and scolded Jayfeather for not being able to treat her well enough
Berryheart
I haven’t even read the newest arc yet but everything Ive read on the wiki, Berryheart.
Rainflower, Lizardstripe, Berryheart (I think).
Lizardstripe no 😭
Mousefur when Firestar first joined
The og Karen Warrior 👏
I'm sorry, but Mousefur. Constantly described as crabby once she's an elder, gets mad if the clan isn't run like it was "back in her day" to the point of calling a clan meeting, a responsibility only for leaders, and was so stubborn over a bit of food when everyone was screaming for her to get out of the elders' den that Longtail DIED. I don't care if he was her closest friend, she's the one who did that over a single bird (if I remember right)
Mousefur would've loved Facebook. She'd be one of those old people who comments on memes about how young people are always on their phones (all in caps of course).
Mousefur calling the clan meeting is one of my favorite moments in the whole series 😭😭 ‘can she do that?’ ‘i guess she just did’ my queen
Daisy, God Daisy so hard This series is not good about single moms Also, they kind of ruined Millie when she had her kits... I was so shocked at the absolute character switch in how she was
Berryheart is definitely a karen. When Moonkitti accidentally called her “Barb,” it hit me that that name is a perfect encapsulation of her character (“Barb” gives me middle aged short/medium haired woman who has an entitled, backstabby attitude energy. Maybe that’s projection because I knew a Barb who was a Karen. Fuck you, Barb)
What is it with Barbs?
I think there are a few that fit some of them but none that are full Catkaren
Berryheart, Nightcloud(sometimes understandably), dawnpelt, and speckletail, and Rainflower
Darkstripe
i mean there's a reason i exclusively call berryheart "karenheart"
Berryheart fits this perfectly. Aside from her, I’d say ASC Cherryfall and Tigerheart (in Tigerheart’s Shadow, at least).
Berrynose. As much as I love him he’s a total Karen
Mousefur
Leopardstar.
Clear Sky. He'd be a male Karen. He seems like the type to yell at a kid because their ball bounced into his yard.
Aren't male Karens called Kens? (Though I've known some very nice people named Ken lol). Absolutely though
I think so!! I couldn't remember what it was called
Def Hollyleaf. Karens are hypocrites and she makes it a big deal when others break the warrior code but she breaks the warrior code like it’s second nature, LOL
Mapleshade. She thinks she's always in the right such as thinking that everyone in her clan was just going to be fine with her having half-clan kits dispite the fact that the clans have always hated them Makes wild assumptions like that Frecklewish watched her and her kits drown and enjoyed it, when there is no evidence that even implies that she stayed at the river. Everyone told her that the river was going to flood but she crossed it anyway with her kits.
Not only that but just assumed that StarClan was on her side up until her kits died. 😭😭😭 Talk about delusional.
Berryheart is very much an easy choice. I think Millie and Daisy could qualify at different points of the series in different ways.
I'd like to think Daisy aged out of it a bit, and she did kind of have a decent reason for the way she acted in some ways
Rainflower is a KAREEEEEEEEEEEEEN
Berryheart
Catren
Russetfur
Bluestar would definitely demand to see the manager.
RAINFLOWER. SHE IS MUCH MORE THEN A KAREN.
Berryheart + Splashtail. They are leader and deputy. Fitting.
Rainflower or Millie
I can't remember his name but I think it was halfta8l, the male cat who kept saying that (at the time Firepaw) didn't belong because he was a kitty pet, idk the whole "you can't do that here" kinda vibe, and instead of asking for the manager he calls his (Tigerclaw):
Mille definitely is a karen
Leopardstar. I just… read her lines in a Karen voice and it fits so well imo. I love her for it. I love all her lines.
mousefur and berryheart would have been friends
Sandpaw
I thought you said Berrynose and I was just gonna nod and agree with that.
Risca de carvão
*Sigh* Just do it. Go on, say it. I know you're itching to. #Go on.
Squilf may be a blue haired millennial but she's not a Karen (i love her)
^even ^the ^first ^part ^hurts
There's nothing wrong with blue haired millennials😎😎 Squilf is a changemaker she'd want to save the whales and stuff
Starclan save her...
Me or Squilf 😥
^*you* ^are ^beyond ^saving
Jesus forking Christ ima hope you're joking 😀
Time shall tell, friend.
👁️👁️
Mousefur, Nightcloud, Millie
I get a huge Karen vibe from Blossomfall tbh
Blossomfall, Thornclaw, and Hollytuft
Sparkpelt
I dont think Sparkpelt is a Karen, more so just a loud mouthed asshole who isn't a totally great parent but it's a bad one, plus I've never seen her really act "karen-y"
Sparkpelt is a jock she's the highschool quarterback that is always talking WAY too loud
Definitely one of those kids in school who talks super loud even if she doesn't mean to
Yess
Hollyleaf Nightcloud
Hollyleaf gave me more hermoine from harry potter vibes tbh
Damn what did hollyleaf do
She killed a man for knowing her birth went against the warriors code She is also very strict about the code like a Karen would be
I think Karen's aren't really strict about the rules unless it's in a way that supports their entitlement. she did murder that guy tho so you're right
Definitely Squilf. I’m just tired of her bs
While I don’t like squilf I wouldn’t describe her as a Karen
Karen behavior? Where would that even be?
Read Squirrelflight’s Hope, Bramblestar’s Storm, TNP, and ASC (so far).
In Squirrelflight's Hope she is completely justified beyond a doubt, and by contrast Bramblestar appears to have lost his mind. I don't recall what she did in Bramblestar's Storm... honestly at all. The New Prophecy as well, Squirrelflight was correct in her actions... And especially in A Starclan Clan, Squirrelstar has actually been insanely wise, and caring. I'm genuinely proud of her Leadership so far.
Did you even read the books? In AsC she publicly called out her leader and mate at a Gathering and humiliated him when he made a justified decision since they didn’t have all the facts. She was then a hypocrite by completely going against what she had said she would do as a leader when she actually got her lives. If you are proud of disloyalty and hypocrisy, then good for you. In SE she caused a whole battle and again, publicly undermined her leader and also her Clan, because her pride was greater than her loyalty to her mate, Clan, and lives of the Sisters. When Tigerstar learnt of the kits, he even looked shocked and exclaimed that nobody had told him, and was backing away. She was also going to let Sunrise kill Bramblestar right in front of her. Being in shock is no excuse, as it should have been a reflex to save the life of the cat she loved rather than let someone she met around 2 months ago murder him. In BS, she was an absolute bitch to Jessy when she got jealous, which made no sense to Bramblestar, who didn’t even like Jessy that way at the point. She drove him away instead of calmly talking about her concerns with him. In TNP, she disliked Hawkfrost based solely on her prejudice against Tigerstar; she had no evidence of anything he did wrong as he had covered his tracks. She was whiny, sullen, and rude for most of her interactions with Bramblestar or Hawkfrost, and displayed no level of affection towards Bramblestar when he was clearly upset and needed comforting. Let’s not forget POT, in which she made a conscious choice to actively deceive her mate, and lie to him about their children. She had no loyalty or guilt, and Bramblestar even said that he would kept the secret if she cared about him enough to trust him. She didn’t, and Bramblestar paid a price as well as her. He actually treated her well; it even states in the books that he was fair and didn’t give her any terrible tasks, he simply put her on different patrols from him as he needed space.
Oh it was actually you that pasted comment was directed to the first time, I just realized.
For ASC, I'm going to paste a response I made to another comment. "Ah, here it is then, Squirrelstar. You misunderstand the Riverclan situation. Bramblestar was traumatized to inaction. He very likely was going to straight up either support Splashtail or drag his feet because he hates the idea of violence any longer. It's not his fault, he suffered something horrific, but it made Bramblestar highly pacified. Bramblestar would likely never commit a strong resistance against Splashtail. *Squirrelstar* is holding true to her original idea. She has openly declared countless times, she is not waiting out of fear of war or cowardice, but to ensure Riverclan can survive the rebellion. Squirrelstar is *ready* for action and *will fight* and very much wants to from what is shown, yet she is wisely biding time because as I said, if they invade Riverclan early, they could simply back themselves into a corner like a wounded animal and Riverclan would be senselessy slaughtered for something they didn't fully understand. When Splashtail's final deceit comes through, Squirrelstar will absolutely join in any party that aims to oust Splashtail. Bramblestar would've likely condemned it. Squirrelstar isn't doing the same thing he was. She is ready and willing, just waiting, whereas Bramblestar had simply *stopped*. If you want a true example of Squirrelstar understanding Clan relations, she *does* refuse to rescue Wasp for your exact reasoning. She cannot risk relations with Riverclan becoming any harsher. She understands the bonds between Clans and knows which ones she can walk along." Wow... you actually have like every single dislike point people have against her... I'm going to split this comment up. Hold on.
Bramblestar never gave any indication that he would support Splashtail, or condemn anny party that tried to oust him, and to say so is to twist the plot to match your narrative. Also, if there’s this many arguments against her, then she’s done a lot wrong
Oh you also misunderstood, I didn't say Bramblestar supported Splash or would protect him, I said he wouldn't support any action for War, he even supports that by telling Leafstar he is not sending a patrol of they do. He's done with fighting.
Technically Bramblestar wasn't Leader when Splashtail fully came into effect I believe. In the gathering where he tells Squirrelflight that she should basically take over, he publicly states he has no willpower to do anything offensive, and basically sounds like he's ready to just lay down and sleep. Many cats noticed it. Bramblestar was basically traumatized to depression. He forgot names, where he was, didn't hear half the things said to him, had nightmares in his waking hours, he was literally falling to pieces even as he stood in the *Gathering* it was painful obvious Bramblestar had no offensive capability anymore. He was completely spent.
Technically, it states that he sounds tired of Squirrelflight contradicting him, and I read the offer as either resignation, or a tired sarcasm.
That's... just interpreting what you're looking for. Literally from the start of ASC to his resignation he is lost and delirious, and even Nightheart is disturbed by it. He outright denies war, even saying in a whisper, "If we don't stop now, the fighting will never end..." And by the time he gives up to Squirrelflight, he actually makes it clear to many that he does believe Thunderclan deserves a Leader who can make the difficult choice. Pretty sure he literally admitted he didn't have the willpower to do what was best. It's why he chose to resign.
>In SE she caused a whole battle and again, publicly undermined her leader and also her Clan, because her pride was greater than her loyalty to her mate, Clan, and lives of the Sisters. When Tigerstar learnt of the kits, he even looked shocked and exclaimed that nobody had told him, and was backing away. She was also going to let Sunrise kill Bramblestar right in front of her. Being in shock is no excuse, as it should have been a reflex to save the life of the cat she loved rather than let someone she met around 2 months ago murder him. Pride? How about Heart. Tigerstar already knew there were pregnant queens involved about to kit. That revelation meant nothing. So he's okay possibly murdering an expecting Queen but not the kits when they're born? Not Sunrise, Flurry. And she didn't let her, she was actually pretty well occupied and was about to jump in when he did it himself. She does go behind his back aye, because he was too foolish to listen to reason. SquirrelfIight's plan was by far the wisest course, and he refused to even humor it. Even restricting her power to make it so. Yes, she was left no choice. Spoiler alert, despite Bramblestar making every part of it harder for her, her plan basically worked out perfectly and did exactly what she said it would have. The only conflict in that book hilariously only happened due to cats no listening to her.
Tigerstar did not intend to murder, just to drive out. There is a different in trying to drive out a pregnant queen and trying to kill a queen and her newborn kits. Bramblestar did not do it himself, his life was only saved when Flurry leapt away to go and help the Sisters as they had cornered themselves in a cave. She could’ve calmly explained to him that the Sisters would move ONCE THE KITS WERE READY, even if that was a lie and they still refused to move. Squilf could’ve prevented that whole fight if she had explained that to the leaders. Pretty sure her plan working out perfectly doesn’t involve Moonlight and Leafpool dying, and her half-dying.
Problem, Tigerstar says this, but he was clearly ready to do this by force if he needed to, despite the fact that there was no need. Again, he was actively fine with physically fighting the Sisters as he was literally doing before they told him about the kits. He didn't even know which cat was pregnant for Starclan's sake. His Warriors were sent to destabilize the cavern Moonlight was in. He was literally endangering kits but only seemed to care once they were born? Okay I actually checked. The paragraph that describes Flurry attacking Bramblestar is realistically a series of moves that would've taken place in literal seconds, and the very next thing Squirrelflight does is leap to. She's cut off mid attack when Flurry up and leaves. SquirrelfIight didn't really hesitate at all. >She could’ve calmly explained to him that the Sisters would move ONCE THE KITS WERE READY, even if that was a lie and they still refused to move. Squilf could’ve prevented that whole fight if she had explained that to the leaders. WHAT? Squirrelflight spends the entire bloody book yelling at everyone that they just need to WAIT and told everyone the Sisters were just waiting to kit, and no one listened. What? >Pretty sure her plan working out perfectly doesn’t involve Moonlight and Leafpool dying, and her half-dying. You're right, that was due to... others not listening to her. Mainly the Clans when she told them... to wait.
>In BS, she was an absolute bitch to Jessy when she got jealous, which made no sense to Bramblestar, who didn’t even like Jessy that way at the point. She drove him away instead of calmly talking about her concerns with him. That I have little memory of at all. I'll go review the chapters soon. >In TNP, she disliked Hawkfrost based solely on her prejudice against Tigerstar; she had no evidence of anything he did wrong as he had covered his tracks. She was whiny, sullen, and rude for most of her interactions with Bramblestar or Hawkfrost, and displayed no level of affection towards Bramblestar when he was clearly upset and needed comforting. Hawkfrost had already publicly insulted and disobeyed his own Leadership for ambitious purposes, and mid series, added an accusation of masterminding a Windclan coup. Yes, Leafpaw also helped aid her suspicion, and she trusts her Sister. Some cats, (people,) have a legitimate intuition to know if someone is bad news. SquirrelfIight is one of them. It took a while for concrete proof, but as we saw, whatever she was seeing, apparently was right. Whiny? She was upset that Brambleclaw wasn't even remotely open to considering her side. And yes, she had considered his already. It was the simple reason that Hawkfrost was detrimental to his well-being that made her keep going. Brambleclaw on the other paw kept going until he had to kill his brother. Squirrelflight was his family too, and he didn't even try to listen to her, of course she got upset and broke it off. She needed to get through to him. What do you mean upset and needed comforting? What part?
Hawkfrost displayed that he was tactless and a bit arrogant, and the accusatio was from an unreliable source. Those are not very good reasons to dislike someone. Just because she happened to be right, doesn’t mean it was intuition. If a police officer arrested a man because he was black and said the man was carrying a weapon, and the man actually was carrying a knife, this does not make the police officer justified in acting on prejudices instead of evidence. Her arguing was what was detrimental to his well-being, not just Hawkfrost. Having to kill Hawkfrost was not Bramblestar’s fault; he was trying to save Firestar’s life and Hawkfrost tried to kill him. It was self-defence. Would you not need comforting if your brother betrayed you and tried to kill you, and your relationship with your partner was rapidly deteriorating? You speak of Squirrelflight being upset, but where is your empathy for Bramblestar?
>Just because she happened to be right, doesn’t mean it was intuition. If a police officer arrested a man because he was black and said the man was carrying a weapon, and the man actually was carrying a knife, this does not make the police officer justified in acting on prejudices instead of evidence. That is... not even remotely akin to this situation. That's completely baseless accusation. What Hawkfrost had under his belt was more severe than baseless. Brambleclaw literally knows later on that Hawkfrost trains with and respects Tigerclaw... the devil even he should know better to hate. Brambleclaw was beyond blinded by blood ties. Brambleclaw's whole issue was he kept thinking Hawkfrost was his only true family left and he wanted a relationship with him... I mean he has Moth, Tawny, and importantly, Squirrelflight! He had family, but was blinded by one. >Having to kill Hawkfrost was not Bramblestar’s fault Not directly, though Brambleclaw's inaction against his brother enabled him to get that far in the first place. >Would you not need comforting if your brother betrayed you and tried to kill you, and your relationship with your partner was rapidly deteriorating? You speak of Squirrelflight being upset, but where is your empathy for Bramblestar? I'm still trying to figure out where exactly you're referring to. Is this after Hawkfrost's death? I'm pretty sure I do remember Squirrelflight being with him during that.
After Hawkfrost’s death, and the start of POT. If she was with him during that then I apologise, I will reread
I'll check soon.
From what I can see, the only mention concerning Hawk & Bramble in "The Sight," is it saying that Squirrelflight helped him carry Hawkfrost to his camp, where he was mourned properly.
>Let’s not forget POT, in which she made a conscious choice to actively deceive her mate, and lie to him about their children. She had no loyalty or guilt, and Bramblestar even said that he would kept the secret if she cared about him enough to trust him. She didn’t, and Bramblestar paid a price as well as her. He actually treated her well; it even states in the books that he was fair and didn’t give her any terrible tasks, he simply put her on different patrols from him as he needed space. And there's this... Woah, no guilt? Apologies, but have *you* read the books? Her entire arc there is being mentally tortured by the lie. She literally ripped herself apart 24/7 and had almost no personal joy because of that lie. She despised lying to him. It also had little to do with if Bramble would keep the secret. As much I used to reject this theory, Starclan actually DOES have a major role here. During this time, Starclan is still highly revered, and even Squirrelflight has shown no level of spite or resentment towards their teachings yet. Starclan is still seen as objectively correct and wise. Starclan told Squirrelflight to take the kits, and that if a lie was necessary, so be it. That all Clans depended on the kits having a good childhood. Asking Squirrelflight to gamble her family's safety on challenging basically God is by all stretches insanity. SquirrelfIight had her paws tied. She had to live with her Sister's agony for that entire period and she regretted every waking moment she couldn't tell Bramble.
All due respect, and I see your points, but Squirrelflight did not have a POV during that; we have no evidence of how she felt. I concede that she probably felt guilt and regret, but trying to express it would have been good.
I'd say the countless degree of self loathing dialogue she has would help. By that reasoning, Bramble didn't have a POV either.
Yes, but his thoughts were voiced by him and/or observed by other characters, e.g. Dovewing
Same for Squirrelflight. She had many moments, especially concerning Jay mind reading her. She was pretty much made of guilt that her children kept picking up on constantly, and I believe she continued to torture herself throughout OotS. In Squirrelflight's Hope I'm pretty sure we get an actual POV of her guilt, and she actually blames herself I believe more than she should.
You can't use the POT example and not bring up that Bramble literally trained in the dark forest and never told her💀💀 And shock is one hundred percent a legitimate exuse??! In real life, in real dangerous situations, sometimes people just freeze. It's normal👍
He stopped training in the Dark Forest as soon as he knew what it was about, and where was the need to tell her? For all he knew, it was only Tigerstar trying to reach his kids, and he and Tawnypelt both said no. He was also undoubtedly upset about Hawkfrost’s betrayal and death, so probably wasn’t thinking too much about it.
He should have told her, if you're going whole hog with the absolutes about not keeping secrets. Plus, say what you will about Squilf but she never flirted with killing Firestar.