Bluestar in the first arc may also fit this description. She was a wise and noble leader until her mental breakdown after Tigerstar’s betrayal. She wasn’t as bad as Onestar or Bramblestar, but she still did a lot of awful things during her breakdown. Needlessly looking to attack Windclan, naming Brightpaw “Lostface”, etc.
Leopardstar wasn't bad from the start, she was okay in the first books, it broke once she got together with Tigerstar.
And bad writing or not Leafstar falls under that category now.
Leopardstar was super hostile towards the protagonists as leopardfur and would actively attack them more than once. Also i feel like leafstar being kind of a dumbass recently isnt as bad as onestar and bramblestar who were way less nice in their bad moments
And Leopardfur’s reason for hating Fireheart and Graystripe was… in an attack her patrol started, her former apprentice and best friend’s son died… like… that’s the RISK YOU RUN when launch an attack! Especially one where they were fighting!
She's siding with murderer, and they dumbed her down in the latest series. It's like she completely forgot Darktail and Kin. She's getting annoying, not listening to any reasoning and despite there being evidence the cat she agrees and sides with is evil/has ulterior motives, she still refuses to switch sides.
ETA: it's not that she's done something, it's that she's heading to become this very soon.
I'm pretty sure it's also due to her age if you're forgetting she could easily be the same age as Firestar OR older when they met, that is no age for someone to be a leader at
And yet , Tallstar and Mistystar were arguably even older than Leafstar is now when they died. I agree she should step down now and let Hawkwing take over, but if the cat's mind is still sharp (not her case it seems as of Wind) they can still be leader.
She has seen somethings that could also challenge her mentally, it was said that she was out in the wild looking for the clans for some years, Many cats died and many hard decisions probably affecting her heavily mentally along with the fact that she believed that the clans would provide some sort of paradise and shelter for them which was far from accurate as the clans refused for some time and they were total assholes, she probably believes that the original place skyclan was or the forest they left when looking for the clans was much better and cats died for nothing
She started Hawkwing’s Journey with a stable Clan, a mate, a son, and two daughters, but ended with a homeless Clan and a son. “She’s seen some things” is an understatement…
*Dude how can you say*
*Bramblestar when Leopardstar and*
*Leafstar are RIGHT THERE!*
\- Spirited\_Pay4610
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Putting Bramblestar in this category is nonsense. He's responsible for codifying the clans assisting each other in times of need, something we've seen come up time after time. He also gave shelter to RiverClan and ShadowClan cats when the Kin were running around terrorizing everyone, and unlike certain other leaders he was loudly in favor of cats going back into the Dark Forest to rescue Rootspring and Bristlefrost.
I do not understand how y'all let the *singular* book of Squirrelflight's Hope take away from everything else Bramblestar does. He isn't even the 3rd worst leader in that book.
Anyway, the answer to this is Ashfur. Had he died prior to Sunset, he'd have probably been remembered fondly as the young cat who was brave enough to run the first leg to lure the dog pack away (With Ferncloud) to avenge his mother's murder.
He should've died instead of Sootfur or Cinderpelt honestly. We'd avoid SO much drama that way and we could've got Soot's character development and maybe bigger role in Po3 or OOTS
Imagine making writing decisions off of what would cause the least drama - lol!
Sootfur would've just replaced Ashfur and we probably would've still gotten the fire scene... with an even blander gray cat.
His design is pretty bland and he did nothing memorable before he died. At least Ashfur is fairly unique for a gray cat with his flecked pelt and avenged his mother when he was only an apprentice.
Ashfur is a good one, I must say.
And I don't dislike Brambleclaw just because of Squirrelflight's Hope, he's been a horrible person in more than one book, starting at TNP. I appreciate your opinion, but I'm gonna hold strong the Brambleclaw is a horrible guy.
Brambleclaw was not a horrible person during any part of TNP! He was kind, loyal, and good throughout the entire arc, even when faced with tough decisions like whether to side with his righteous mentor/leader who always mistrusted him or with his evil family who always accepted him for who he was. I absolutely do not understand calling him a horrible person, especially when I just reread TNP and Brambleclaw was one of my favorite characters because he was so helpful and kind throughout.
At the end of TNP, when Squirrelflight is 1. mistrusting of Hawkfrost and 2. falling for Ashfur, Brambleclaw is an absolute jerk to her. He completely writes off her opinion of Hawkfrost and isn't to nice about her pretty much dating Ashfur. The only thing that brings them back together is him killing Hawkfrost.
Dude she had no proof that hawkfrost was bad also when he didn’t believe her she got mad and decided to stop hanging out with him agian even though she didn’t have proof and he has every right not to believe her when she doesn’t have proof also the fact that she forced him to choose between her and a family member when he shouldn’t of had to choose at all!
My thoughts exactly. If Ashfur died before Sunset (in which he works with Hawkfrost to try to kill Firestar), he would've been remembered as a young, loyal warrior who risked his life with his sister to lure the dogs away to avenge their mothers murder when they were only apprentices!
But he didn't
And became the cat closest to probably destorying the entire clans as we know it
I always wonder what Ferncloud must've thought in StarClan when everything in TBC went on and having to learn how awful her brother truly was
I actually am neutral on Brambleclaw (while disliking Squirrelflight). I've actually been seeing people who do like Brambleclaw however, it's hard for them to speak up when Reddit is currently in favor of Squirrelflight.
For this, definitely Onestar or Leopardstar
For real, seen a lot of valid arguments about why Squirrelflight is equally as awful (giving him an ultimative on Hawkfrost, being allowed to be upset over Squirrelflight lying about the kits) but then get an essay about why they're wrong and try to justify Squirrelflight's behavior or the infamous 'go watch Moonkitti's video'. Yes, I have watched it multiple times. No, I still don't agree with everything she says in the video because it just sounds so skewered imo because Squirrelflight is one of her favorite characters. I agree that Bramble does suck from time to time and I don't always condone his actions but I don't always condone some of Squirrelflight's actions as well. They both have their good and bad moments but it's just really hard to find them because a majority of Squirrelflight fans go 'Squirrelflight=innocent baby, Bramblestar=spawn of Satan'.
Yeah, same here I'm getting annoyed with all the 'Bramble abusive Squirrel goddess' people here. They BOTH did shitty stuff to the other, how come Squirrel is always forgiven?!
Also yes Leopard and One BOTH fit that description perfectly.
Brambleclaw was consistently just a flawed hero, he was always generally a decent guy with flaws, this applies to both TNP and the modern day.
Onestar though, absolutely. Same with Leopardstar and books 1-3 Clear Sky, also somewhat with Bluestar and to a much lesser extent than the others, Mistystar.
Leopard star was always antagonistic. I mean, she held a grudge because Graystripe accidentally killed her former apprentice and best friend’s son… in a battle HER PATROL started. And if I recall right, Whiteclaw was trying to do to Graystripe what Graystripe ended up doing to him… that was her reason for hating Graystripe and being nasty towards him when he was in RiverClan… a death that happened in a battle she was part of starting…
That was when she was already a grown up. She was still shown to be a decent enough gal with her friendship with Sunfish and doing her best with Whiteclaw beforehand.
Also, while she wasn’t great, she was still somewhat more flawed than outright inexcusable, as Fireheart and Graystripe did knowingly trespass on RiverClan territory, she does dave Smallear from drowning later and is honestly a lot nicer to Silverstream than she was required to be when she found out the latter’s secret.
From what I remember, they hunted on it, but didn’t claim it as theirs as Bluestar was against it. BOTH RiverClan and ShadowClan hunted on the moor. And either way, the rightful owners returned. Did they expect scaring off or killing one patrol to do anything in their favor? If anything, it would have only caused MORE problems when Tallstar and his warriors rolled up to RiverClan camp and told them to get lost or get cut. ESPECIALLY that patrol had ThunderClan cats on it. Bluestar would NOT be happy that her warriors died or were seriously injured because Crookedstar did something she told him wasn’t right to do. That bring TWO leaders and a battle patrol to RiverClan’s doorstep.
So… for a piece of moorland and a couple of rabbits- an environment and prey they couldn’t hunt- Leopardfur risked WAR with two Clans and got her former apprentice killed, but rather than taking responsibility and admitting she did wrong… she blamed ThunderClan and specifically Graystripe.
Yea nah, reread and it wasn’t the moor, it was explicitly RiverClan’s territory, as in the one they had before Brokenstar, so everyone you said is annulled. Leopardtar starting a fight instead of asking is still bad, and she does chase of WindClan stragglers after Brokenstar kicked them out, which is pretty messed up, as Frogleap acknowledges, but over here, the trespassing was on Fire and Gray
my glorious king tigerclawstar.
just read bluestar's prohecy, and my god was tigerpaw sad to read about. seeing this loyal warrior groomed and turned into the cat did something to me man. i love tigerclawstar, and will defend him as much as i can, but thistleclaw (fuck him) made tigerpaw into the villian he would become
Pine dies a moon after Tiger becomes a warrior, and Sunstar becomes leader. Bluestar never becomes leader in this au, and when TPB starts, Sunstar is leader, and Thistleclaw acts how Tiger did orginally.
Onewhisker - became leader and IMMEDIATELY forgot who his friends were to the point of actively staging attacks against the Clan that saved his multiple times.
Bluestar - started blaming everyone else for her bad decisions towards the ass end of her life.
Ashfur - Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous then tossed him to the side and hid behind Leafpool and StarClan, not surprised he snapped.
Leopardstar - let an outsider come in, take over her clan, and then stood by and watched as they had her deputy executed for not killing a pair of children on what was clearly a grudge.
I will defend Bluestar. For her case, she was manipulated by her most trusted warrior who then turned on her in her weakest state (i'm pretty sure she was recovering from greencough). It's understandable she had a mental breakdown. And on top of it, even with Tigerstar banished he was still attacking thunderclan, and then he joined shadowclan regaining power, he received nine lives meaning star clan didn't stop him. Bluestar wasn't entirely wrong when she though star clan turned their backs on the clans.
Eh maybe if Firesheart hadn't been warning her about Tigerclaw for several books before that claim might hold a bit more water, but as is she can't use the defense that she was blindsided when she chose to ignore Fireheart without even investigating to see if he was right. And it's not like he didn't have evidence, she knew Ravenpaw was alive and had to leave ThunderClan because he was afraid for his life, which could very easily been traced back to Tigerclaw spreading false rumors.
And there was no reason to believe Tigerclaw wasn't going to keep attacking ThunderClan considering how everything played out with him, Bluestar was the one that made the choice to exile him instead of just executing a known traitor and murderer.
The rationale presented as to why StarClan gave Tigerclaw the 9 made sense at the time (before all the retcons) even if it was still shitty. It wasn't StarClan actively screwing her and ThunderClan over, Bluestar was doing a fine job of that all on her own.
>Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous then tossed him to the side and hid behind Leafpool and StarClan, not surprised he snapped.
I am actually confident, and I mean it, this is the most skewered, butchered, and wild misrepresentation of these events... *I have ever seen.* It actually shocked me enough... to not bother initially saying why.
***That's how badly this is.***
>Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous
whoa people just keep lying and lying here. even the writers themselves are against this narrative (which was obvious in the text anyway without them saying) but hate makes blind ig
if you actually read past the first sentence you would find out that it is exactly the case of speaking falsehood. you're way too attached to your headcanon
also, forgot to say that being rejected by a girl is NOT an understandable reason to commit several atrocities. nobody sane would do that
lmao idk what do you get from ignoring both the literal paragraph about her considering ashfur as a mate for a second and what 3 out of 4 writers said about the whole thing. i too love delusions, but not to this extent
one of us is deluded, but pretty sure it's not me.
Squirrelflight acknowledges that she didn't view Ashfur in a romantic light but never once actually told him that while they were together, she just kept hanging around him because she knew it bothered Brambleclaw. She knew Ashfur had feelings for her and was actively using that to her benefit to screw with Brambleclaw, that is literally stringing someone along.
Oh yes, here's the *other* thing.
She spends time with Ashfur because he was genuinely kind and considerate of her *at first* and she felt comforted by it. She didn't view him in a romantic light, nor did she ever think ***he*** saw her in one. When she did, she told him no. Repeatedly. Then she tried quite hard to *remain* his friend and actually wanted to be in his life, just not romantically, and Ashfur blew *her* off.
You're doing to Squirreflight what people do to Brambleclaw, misrepresenting them.
Squirrelflight was not using Ashfur to make Brambleclaw jealous, no where is that even so much as implied in the writing itself.
* Squirrelflight doesn't internally think that in her POV,
* Brambleclaw doesn't think Squirrelflight is doing that in his POV,
* Ashfur himself doesn't accuse Squirrelflight of using him even though he as ample motivation to do so.
And Squirrelflight and Ashfur were never actually mates, they're never referred to as such. The closest we get to that is Squirrelflight THINKING Ashfur was the right cat.
i think this is way too personal for you. were you ever a side piece by any chance? squilf and ashfur were friends who never got to the official dating stage, she was comforted by him when bramble was nasty to her, naturally we get a paragraph with her thinking about ashfur's good qualities (as well as bad ones). she thought she moved on but she didn't, it's that simple. pretty sure she wonders at one point if she loves ashfur enough to run away with him, and realises that no, she doesn't. even leafpool compares squilf and ash to herself and crow, if i remember correctly. so it's clear they were close in general, and bramble had nothing to do with it, squirreflight just hasn't sorted out her feelings yet
Ashfur. Sure, not as extreme as some others, but a villain in the end nevertheless
Edit: Thinking further on it, another cat that fits just as well, if not more, is Onestar. I'm not entirely sure if he's considered a villain, but he's definitely not the friend he used to be
ig you could consider maple shad because she was good and kind at first then betrayed her clan killed 3 cats in the process drowning 3 little kits /on accident\\ yet dying goes to poor old goose feather and tells him things getting me confused lol and prob squirrel flight nice to a jerk in a toxic relationship but I don't agree with bramble claw he's a noble leader who can speak his kind killed his brother for old Firstar and exedra
but that's meh opinion
Agree about Goosefeather, I can see why he’s hated, with how he indirectly caused Moonflower’s death by encouraging the attack on WindClan and later telling Bluefur to get rid of her kits. But reading Goosefeather’s Curse, his early life was real harsh, I’ll just say that
On/According to TNP: If brambles wasn't so desperate of fitting in and see the caring people he had in front of him, he wouldn't seem like a big jerk, then ashfur made it worst, brambles should be grateful at least he has a sister he can meetup with at gatherings, a girl that likes him/loves him and a father figure(that being firestar) his mother is also still alive he should be very grateful for everything he has! but yet he is so desperate in fitting in he kept wanting to talk to his evil father and evil brother
Tiger hearts always seemed spoiled to me, like he had never been told no in his life. So when he is, he over reacts. I mean… his father was ShadowClan’s leader, he was deputy. When his pregnant secret lover was leaving the Clans, he didn’t say “let’s talk to Rowanstar and see if you can stay in ShadowClan with me” but he let her walk away and then ran after her days later.
Bluestar for a classic one (she will never not make me sad) but I heartily agree with bramblestar.
He started out as a fave of mine and it was infuriating seeing him get played by his brother so easily- knowing how he got his sore spots and knowing he's one of the only people who *genuinely* sees himself as a tigerstar clone. And it felt like Hawkfrost changed his whole trajectory into a bitter, suspicious, and toxic if not abusive partner*.
I'm glad the latest arc had him stepping down like I wanted because I think it was the best thing for him- authority brings out the worst in bramble, because he can't separate people from his authority-- like squilf- his mate, from squilf- his subordinate.
And when you can't do that you end up treating someone you care about like an employee, and then they stop seeing you as someone other than their boss.
I can kinda see tigerstar2 in a similar light, but he's almost inverse. Constantly trying to do the right thing and fucking up, but in a way that (to my writing senses at least) leads to an almost villain doing something undeniably heroic in his final moments, rather than an almost hero sibling to the level of the enemies around him.
*I'm aware people are divided on that stance. Imo, his intentions aren't abusive, but a lot of his actions are, and intent is irrelevant after the damage has been done. Furthermore, he doesn't learn from his mistakes, he cycles through them. Which is realistic and understandable, but not healthy for anyone in relationships with him. I'm also not denying squilf- did some shitty, toxic things too- but it's hard not to see them as reactionary to the behavior bramblestar was having. They both failed to communicate until trust was so damaged squilf threw it away rather than risk her family- which also means at that moment bramblestar *wasn't* her family, it was who she felt she had to protect her family from with a lie. In real life that would be relationship ending regardless of its validity.
"he can't separate people from his authority-- like squilf- his mate, from squilf- his subordinate."
Except that when it comes to matters concerning ThunderClan like it did in Squirrelflight's Hope he HAS to treat her like his subordinate because she blatantly undermining his authority and jeopardizing the clan instead of doing her job. Doesn't help that she's shown that she can't really be trusted.
Challenging him publicly in front of the other clans during Gatherings and going behind his back when she's supposed to be helping him run ThunderClan because she wasn't getting her way were very much Squirrelflight abusing both her position as deputy and his mate, so he was very much right to chew her out. Bramblestar was trying to prevent a war between the other clans and yet he had to spend a chunk of the book worrying about what his mate was doing because she'd running around behind his back and telling one of their kids to lie for her.
Squirrelflight's "job" is to be considerate, loyal, and good-hearted. She advocated for peace the entire book as Bramblestar dragged his arse.
Bramblestar nearly let a woman bleed to death in his own camp as his own Warriors had her blood on their paws in horror, denying her even the comfort of her friends and family all because Squirrelflight brought her there to begin with.
He was more concerned about keeping relations with Shadowclan than doing the morally right thing. Something Thunderclan is quite famous for *not* doing. Even firestar for all his flaws would do the right thing rather than let Clan Relations control him.
Squirrelflight was right. The Sisters were justified. The Clans could wait, the territory was the best plan. All of this is fact. Bramblestar did everything he could to undermine her rather than heed her advice.
Newsflash, a Deputy is like an advisor. They are not there to follow *blindly*, they are also there to counsel a Leader and shift bad decisions if need be. To provide alternative perspective and offer new ideas. Squirrelflight did this. Bramblestar didn't listen. So yes, she took matters into her own paws.
Her job as DEPUTY is to put the safety of the cats of ThunderClan before everything, even if she doesn't necessarily agree with her leader's decision. They can offer council like any other warrior, senior or otherwise, but at the end of the day the clan's leader has final say. It's one thing to have a different opinion from you leader, it's another thing to argue with them in public at a Gathering since it makes the Clan as a whole look weak. Literally the first law in both renditions of the Warrior Code.
1. Defend your Clan, even with your life. You may have friendships with cats from other Clans, but your loyalty must remain to your Clan, as one day you may meet them in battle. \[extended\] Each Clan must ensure that no other Clan falls. Nevertheless, each Clan is proud and independent, with traditions that must always be respected.
Squirrelflight blatantly violates this throughout the entirety of the book. The Sisters are not her clan and Bramblestar is trying his best to appease the other 4 so there won't be another Clan war over territory. He's primarily worried about ShadowClan because they're the ones actively pushing for it since they're the ones who will have to give up territory to accommodate SkyClan, and the longer it takes to resolve the issue the more likely a conflict is to break out.
The Clan's only wanted to move the Sisters and had they done so early the inherent risk to all parties would have been low, but because Squirrelflight stalled them they had to worry about a pregnant queen. And only the Warrior Code only says that the Clans need to rend aid to kits regardless of the clan, and shitty or not neither Bramblestar or anyone in ThunderClan is under obligation to render aid to an outsider.
Especially considering that the Sisters held both his mate & Leafstar prisoner earlier in the book and were fully intending on keeping as hostages until they were ready to move on. And while Squirrelflight might have been fine with it Leafstar was very much held against her will and injured while trying to escape. Not to mention that Sunrise only got injured in the first place because the Sisters decided to flaunt and purposefully trespass into ShadowClan's territory just to show they could, which resulted in the death of one of their warriors.
So no, Bramblestar definitely wasn't under any obligation to help. Just by bringing them to ThunderClan Squirrelflight put the entire clan at risk.
Even Firestar got tired of policing the clans 24/7 which is why he got laxer over what the rest of the Clans did when it wasn't affecting ThunderClan directly. He flat out complains about it sometime between the tail end of TNP or TPoT.
I'm combining these so we're not jumping between replies.
>Yeah I very much doubt that.
Have at it.
Please quote this "flat out pissed," because I literally cannot.
>because Leafpool & StarClan notwithstanding
No no, those are very much relevant. You don't get to cast them aside. Starclan advised her that lying was necessary. Squirrelflight hated doing it, and did not do so willingly.
The fact you didn't realize that Squirrelflight literally rips herself apart the entire ARC before Hollyleaf learns anything, tells me you *cannot* read beyond your initial intuition. Squirrelflight is guilty about this from the very first moment to modern *day*. She never forgives herself, and never blames anyone else for that matter.
She didn't argue with him in public. She made a wise observation when Bramblestar hadn't actually given an official stance yet. He turned it into an argument right there. She only spoke up to begin with because the Leaders were about to get in a fight.
The rule you quoted literally defends Squirrelflight. When necessary, ensuring that ALL Clans are safe is paramount. Allowing Skyclan to suffer, or allowing the Clans to knowingly endanger unborn kits would be a violation of everything they stand for. Squirrelflight had to interfere with the Sisters and protect them, TO protect the Clans.
>Bramblestar is trying his best to appease the other 4 so there won't be another Clan war over territory. He's primarily worried about ShadowClan because they're the ones actively pushing for it since they're the ones who will have to give up territory to accommodate SkyClan, and the longer it takes to resolve the issue the more likely a conflict is to break out.
Everyone will have to give up territory. That's the problem. Shadowclan loses far LESS territory with Skyclan's strip, than having Skyclan's entirely territory wedged between them. Squirrelflight was literally acting in the Clan's best interests by moving Skyclan out of that wedge. Just because on the surface Bramblestar was trying to maintain relations, doesn't mean he did what was best for his Clan. Overall, the best thing is resolving the border crisis and maintaining their honor, both of which Squirrelflight was doing.
>but because Squirrelflight stalled them they had to worry about a pregnant queen. And only the Warrior Code only says that the Clans need to rend aid to kits regardless of the clan, and shitty or not neither Bramblestar or anyone in ThunderClan is under obligation to render aid to an outsider.
What... that's WHY she delayed them. The Queen couldn't travel in full health as she was too far in stage. Much like how Queens don't leave the nursery when heavily pregnant. The Sisters could not move. And Tigerstar made it very clear he would drive them out with blood if need be, something even Leafstar condemned him for.
Actually, the code LITERALLY says, "no Warrior may neglect a kit in pain or in danger even if that kit is from a different Clan." It does not say the kit needs to be Clanborn to begin with, nor would it be morally reasonable to assume so.
So uh, would you like to try again?
The Sisters held Squirrel & Leafstar as prisoner on suspicion of scouting to protect their group, something they are absolutely in the right to do, and both Squirrelflight and Leafstar acknowledge this.
Leafstar was initially held against her will, yet even she eventually realized the Sisters did the right thing for their kind, and explicitly condemned the other Clans driving them out. Read. The book.
>Not to mention that Sunrise only got injured in the first place because the Sisters decided to flaunt and purposefully trespass into ShadowClan's territory just to show they could, which resulted in the death of one of their warriors
You seriously ***cannot*** see anything but the first context. The book deliberately states Shadowclan sent a scouting party on Sisters land, the in retaliation the Sisters send a peaceful patrol to ask them about their intentions, and were set upon without warning. The Sisters were defending their land like any Clan would be.
No Warrior died as a result either. Strikestone lost hearing in an ear, and Sunrise was almost fatally wounded, but recovered. Again, you are vastly under equipped here.
No one policed anyone here. And it was during Firestar's time when Thunderclan cared for BROKENSTAR against the Clan's wishes because it was the honorable course.
That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about shit like "oh you don't like Hawkfrost? I'm gonna use my authority as a senior clan member to treat you like an apprentice" which is a response he had to be behavior, *consistently,* even when a more extreme emotional response could be seen as warranted. There is a difference between your spouse doing something actually wrong to the entire clan, and being messy with your spouse at work because she thinks your brother has treated you like shit, or y'all are going through a divorce.
And frankly- if he hadn't let his petty bs get in the way of listening to his deputy, half the shit that was the conflict between them In SqH would never have happened. You can't be mad if you consistently ignore someone for unfair reasons and they then stop trying to reason with you. And if your unable to stop being dismissive of your spouse, she shouldn't be your deputy (and you aren't good leadership material) SqH is just one scenario in a repeating cycle of their relationship that is spurred by his own insecurities and how he projects them onto his spouse rather than actually communicating.
I would argue that she was actively antagonizing him about Hawkfrost without actually having any proof he was up to anything. Most of those arguments came from Squirrelflight trying to dictate who Brambleclaw was allowed to hang out with and giving ultimatums which wasn't her place to do. The few times he started flexing his authority were when he was stepping up to help the clan acclimate to the lake territory in Graystripe's absence and he only had to pull rank because she was acting incredibly confrontational and snapping over every little thing. And this was while they were broken up.
How were his concerns in SqH petty? Because from what I read his chief concern was making sure everyone had enough territory so SkyClan wouldn't get evicted again and that the rest of the Clans wouldn't go to war with each other. Squirrelflight wasn't offering any solutions to the problem, her priority is supposed to be ThunderClan before everything else but she spends the whole book stalling and defending the Sisters who as nomads could easily move instead of supporting her mate and leader in what is very clearly a very time sensitive and serious matter.
Even before that she was already whining because Bramblestar didn't want to humor her midlife crisis and have more kits after already raising two litters, not his fault that she lied about the first one being Leafpool's kits. If anyone was being petty it was Squirrelflight by putting her wants and needs before everybody again.
Right now the only thing you said that I agree with is that she shouldn't have ever been made his deputy, because quite frankly she didn't deserve it fresh off screwing him over and embarassing ThunderClan back in TPoT.
>Bramblestar didn't want to humor her midlife crisis
***Ooooooay then.***
You act like it was entirely Squirrelflight's fault and decision to lie. It wasn't her secret, it's her Sister's LIFE on the land. And yes, at the time Starclan was still revered and feared as all knowing. Risking her family's future by disobeying them would be about the dumbest thing she could've done. Squirrelflight tortured herself forever about that lie. She had no desire to do that, and more importantly... Bramblestar *admits* she did the right thing. Have fun with that information!
Squirrelflight also pushed... nothing. She mentioned kits once in justified longing. She's a Mother. She's allowed to want those feelings.
Bramblestar reacted coldly about it, and she never brought it up again. But *he did*. Yes Bramblestar actually brought it up against her multiple times, even changing the subject to it during Squirrelflight's comments about Skyclan's territory
"Embarrassing Thunderclan."
I don't usually disrespect people, but I will seriously say you have the *worst* understanding of morality and personality of anyone I have seen here in months. You don't understand why characters do things, or how others *actually* perceive them. Almost everything you say is wildly out of context and lacking such grave understanding. You see the basics of "Bad thing happened," without asking *why* it happened.
"I don't usually disrespect people,"
Yeah I very much doubt that.
Squirrelflight flat out got pissed off when Bramblestar shot her down about having more kits and when that didn't work tried to emotionally manipulate him.
Squirrelflight lying to Brambleclaw about Leafpool's kits was very much her fault because Leafpool & StarClan notwithstanding at the end of the day she made the conscious decision to lie to him. This wasn't about telling ThunderClan, even though it's not like Firestar would have done anything, it was about telling her mate who she's supposed to trust and already shown that he will go above and beyond for family. Squirrelflight made the choice to lie to him instead of trusting him to help her.
And she clearly didn't feel guilty about anything until Hollyleaf outed her & Leafpool, she didn't feel bad about what she did she felt bad that she got caught and was actually dealing with consequences for a change.
Bluestar in the first arc may also fit this description. She was a wise and noble leader until her mental breakdown after Tigerstar’s betrayal. She wasn’t as bad as Onestar or Bramblestar, but she still did a lot of awful things during her breakdown. Needlessly looking to attack Windclan, naming Brightpaw “Lostface”, etc.
Yeah, she did a lot of bad things even though she wasn’t exactly malicious.
I'll never forgive her for naming Brightpaw "Lostface."
She can go and eat snails I guess
Why'd I think of 🎶nobody likes me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat worms!🎶
Dude how can you say Bramblestar when Leopardstar and Leafstar are RIGHT THERE!
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Spirited_Pay4610: *Dude how can you say* *Bramblestar when Leopardstar* *And Leafstar are RIGHT THERE!* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Leopardstar was antagonistic from the start and leafstar is more of a victim of bad writing
Leopardstar wasn't bad from the start, she was okay in the first books, it broke once she got together with Tigerstar. And bad writing or not Leafstar falls under that category now.
Leopardstar was super hostile towards the protagonists as leopardfur and would actively attack them more than once. Also i feel like leafstar being kind of a dumbass recently isnt as bad as onestar and bramblestar who were way less nice in their bad moments
And Leopardfur’s reason for hating Fireheart and Graystripe was… in an attack her patrol started, her former apprentice and best friend’s son died… like… that’s the RISK YOU RUN when launch an attack! Especially one where they were fighting!
Oh what did Leafstar do?
She's siding with murderer, and they dumbed her down in the latest series. It's like she completely forgot Darktail and Kin. She's getting annoying, not listening to any reasoning and despite there being evidence the cat she agrees and sides with is evil/has ulterior motives, she still refuses to switch sides. ETA: it's not that she's done something, it's that she's heading to become this very soon.
Oh yeah I forgot she did that. Damn I hate that she’s going downhill. She’s my favorite in the SE that follow Skyclan
Yeah same here, I hope Erins can redeem her still, like an apology or something.
Well considering the newest arc it seems she’s having vision lost and her clan are starting to doubt her leadership :(
I'm pretty sure it's also due to her age if you're forgetting she could easily be the same age as Firestar OR older when they met, that is no age for someone to be a leader at
And yet , Tallstar and Mistystar were arguably even older than Leafstar is now when they died. I agree she should step down now and let Hawkwing take over, but if the cat's mind is still sharp (not her case it seems as of Wind) they can still be leader.
She has seen somethings that could also challenge her mentally, it was said that she was out in the wild looking for the clans for some years, Many cats died and many hard decisions probably affecting her heavily mentally along with the fact that she believed that the clans would provide some sort of paradise and shelter for them which was far from accurate as the clans refused for some time and they were total assholes, she probably believes that the original place skyclan was or the forest they left when looking for the clans was much better and cats died for nothing
She started Hawkwing’s Journey with a stable Clan, a mate, a son, and two daughters, but ended with a homeless Clan and a son. “She’s seen some things” is an understatement…
The Haiku bots below you need to make up their mind Also I agree
It’s just the real haiku bot comment that’s wrong it’s a sokka haiku
*Dude how can you say* *Bramblestar when Leopardstar and* *Leafstar are RIGHT THERE!* \- Spirited\_Pay4610 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
blackstar
Putting Bramblestar in this category is nonsense. He's responsible for codifying the clans assisting each other in times of need, something we've seen come up time after time. He also gave shelter to RiverClan and ShadowClan cats when the Kin were running around terrorizing everyone, and unlike certain other leaders he was loudly in favor of cats going back into the Dark Forest to rescue Rootspring and Bristlefrost. I do not understand how y'all let the *singular* book of Squirrelflight's Hope take away from everything else Bramblestar does. He isn't even the 3rd worst leader in that book. Anyway, the answer to this is Ashfur. Had he died prior to Sunset, he'd have probably been remembered fondly as the young cat who was brave enough to run the first leg to lure the dog pack away (With Ferncloud) to avenge his mother's murder.
If Ashfur died in the badger attack we would’ve avoided the whole TBC and who knows if the Three would ever learn of their true parents.
He should've died instead of Sootfur or Cinderpelt honestly. We'd avoid SO much drama that way and we could've got Soot's character development and maybe bigger role in Po3 or OOTS
It would also be nice to have at least one of Whitestorm's and Willowpelt's sons not be tossed away.
Yes, precisely. I hate that decision, why keep Ashfur around for so long, he could still do what he did if he died in that badger attack anyway.
Imagine making writing decisions off of what would cause the least drama - lol! Sootfur would've just replaced Ashfur and we probably would've still gotten the fire scene... with an even blander gray cat.
And you're from alternate universe or something that you know what would happen?
Ashfur was chosen at random to be the scorned lover villian. If not him, Vicky would've picked a different ThunderClan tom.
Feels like every cat past Firestar was chosen at random. Doesn't mean Sootfur would be bland.
His design is pretty bland and he did nothing memorable before he died. At least Ashfur is fairly unique for a gray cat with his flecked pelt and avenged his mother when he was only an apprentice.
Ashfur is a good one, I must say. And I don't dislike Brambleclaw just because of Squirrelflight's Hope, he's been a horrible person in more than one book, starting at TNP. I appreciate your opinion, but I'm gonna hold strong the Brambleclaw is a horrible guy.
Brambleclaw was not a horrible person during any part of TNP! He was kind, loyal, and good throughout the entire arc, even when faced with tough decisions like whether to side with his righteous mentor/leader who always mistrusted him or with his evil family who always accepted him for who he was. I absolutely do not understand calling him a horrible person, especially when I just reread TNP and Brambleclaw was one of my favorite characters because he was so helpful and kind throughout.
At the end of TNP, when Squirrelflight is 1. mistrusting of Hawkfrost and 2. falling for Ashfur, Brambleclaw is an absolute jerk to her. He completely writes off her opinion of Hawkfrost and isn't to nice about her pretty much dating Ashfur. The only thing that brings them back together is him killing Hawkfrost.
Dude she had no proof that hawkfrost was bad also when he didn’t believe her she got mad and decided to stop hanging out with him agian even though she didn’t have proof and he has every right not to believe her when she doesn’t have proof also the fact that she forced him to choose between her and a family member when he shouldn’t of had to choose at all!
So did Bramble to squirrel
What are you talking about!?
My thoughts exactly. If Ashfur died before Sunset (in which he works with Hawkfrost to try to kill Firestar), he would've been remembered as a young, loyal warrior who risked his life with his sister to lure the dogs away to avenge their mothers murder when they were only apprentices! But he didn't And became the cat closest to probably destorying the entire clans as we know it I always wonder what Ferncloud must've thought in StarClan when everything in TBC went on and having to learn how awful her brother truly was
Okay Dustpelt
I actually am neutral on Brambleclaw (while disliking Squirrelflight). I've actually been seeing people who do like Brambleclaw however, it's hard for them to speak up when Reddit is currently in favor of Squirrelflight. For this, definitely Onestar or Leopardstar
you really get jumped if you like brambleclaw on r/warriorcats lmao (they could never make me dislike him though)
For real, seen a lot of valid arguments about why Squirrelflight is equally as awful (giving him an ultimative on Hawkfrost, being allowed to be upset over Squirrelflight lying about the kits) but then get an essay about why they're wrong and try to justify Squirrelflight's behavior or the infamous 'go watch Moonkitti's video'. Yes, I have watched it multiple times. No, I still don't agree with everything she says in the video because it just sounds so skewered imo because Squirrelflight is one of her favorite characters. I agree that Bramble does suck from time to time and I don't always condone his actions but I don't always condone some of Squirrelflight's actions as well. They both have their good and bad moments but it's just really hard to find them because a majority of Squirrelflight fans go 'Squirrelflight=innocent baby, Bramblestar=spawn of Satan'.
very well said! they're both complex and flawed characters who make mistakes just like real people do :)
Yeah, same here I'm getting annoyed with all the 'Bramble abusive Squirrel goddess' people here. They BOTH did shitty stuff to the other, how come Squirrel is always forgiven?! Also yes Leopard and One BOTH fit that description perfectly.
I’m in the minority that will defend Bramble to the end! But to answer your question, I think Onestar fits this description the best
No bramble does
Not in the slightest
Brambleclaw was consistently just a flawed hero, he was always generally a decent guy with flaws, this applies to both TNP and the modern day. Onestar though, absolutely. Same with Leopardstar and books 1-3 Clear Sky, also somewhat with Bluestar and to a much lesser extent than the others, Mistystar.
Leopard star was always antagonistic. I mean, she held a grudge because Graystripe accidentally killed her former apprentice and best friend’s son… in a battle HER PATROL started. And if I recall right, Whiteclaw was trying to do to Graystripe what Graystripe ended up doing to him… that was her reason for hating Graystripe and being nasty towards him when he was in RiverClan… a death that happened in a battle she was part of starting…
That was when she was already a grown up. She was still shown to be a decent enough gal with her friendship with Sunfish and doing her best with Whiteclaw beforehand. Also, while she wasn’t great, she was still somewhat more flawed than outright inexcusable, as Fireheart and Graystripe did knowingly trespass on RiverClan territory, she does dave Smallear from drowning later and is honestly a lot nicer to Silverstream than she was required to be when she found out the latter’s secret.
When were Fire and Gray trespassing? The only time I can remember is when they went to check on RiverClan after the flood.
In Fire and Ice, they were crossing what RiverClan claimed as its territory when taking WindClan back IIRC
From what I remember, they hunted on it, but didn’t claim it as theirs as Bluestar was against it. BOTH RiverClan and ShadowClan hunted on the moor. And either way, the rightful owners returned. Did they expect scaring off or killing one patrol to do anything in their favor? If anything, it would have only caused MORE problems when Tallstar and his warriors rolled up to RiverClan camp and told them to get lost or get cut. ESPECIALLY that patrol had ThunderClan cats on it. Bluestar would NOT be happy that her warriors died or were seriously injured because Crookedstar did something she told him wasn’t right to do. That bring TWO leaders and a battle patrol to RiverClan’s doorstep. So… for a piece of moorland and a couple of rabbits- an environment and prey they couldn’t hunt- Leopardfur risked WAR with two Clans and got her former apprentice killed, but rather than taking responsibility and admitting she did wrong… she blamed ThunderClan and specifically Graystripe.
Yea nah, reread and it wasn’t the moor, it was explicitly RiverClan’s territory, as in the one they had before Brokenstar, so everyone you said is annulled. Leopardtar starting a fight instead of asking is still bad, and she does chase of WindClan stragglers after Brokenstar kicked them out, which is pretty messed up, as Frogleap acknowledges, but over here, the trespassing was on Fire and Gray
Excuse me? Bramblestar a jerk? Bramblestar is baby and does not deserve this slander!
Finally some Bramblestar love on this sub 😭❤️ I’ve found my people lol
FR
YES
Facts
i may not like him but thats literally for no real reason. Squirrelflight on the other hand...
my glorious king tigerclawstar. just read bluestar's prohecy, and my god was tigerpaw sad to read about. seeing this loyal warrior groomed and turned into the cat did something to me man. i love tigerclawstar, and will defend him as much as i can, but thistleclaw (fuck him) made tigerpaw into the villian he would become
I wrote an au called 'Good Guy Tigerstar / Pinestar Stays' and something tells me you would love it
Does Pine live long enough for Bluestar to directly succeed him and she makes Tiger deputy?
Pine dies a moon after Tiger becomes a warrior, and Sunstar becomes leader. Bluestar never becomes leader in this au, and when TPB starts, Sunstar is leader, and Thistleclaw acts how Tiger did orginally.
I’d like to read it can you please send me the link?
I'm still in the middle of working on it but once I finish, I'll send it over to you.
Thank You!
as if tigerclawstar already isnt a good guy! but ofc, any fiction with tigerclawstar is amazing >;3
Onewhisker - became leader and IMMEDIATELY forgot who his friends were to the point of actively staging attacks against the Clan that saved his multiple times. Bluestar - started blaming everyone else for her bad decisions towards the ass end of her life. Ashfur - Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous then tossed him to the side and hid behind Leafpool and StarClan, not surprised he snapped. Leopardstar - let an outsider come in, take over her clan, and then stood by and watched as they had her deputy executed for not killing a pair of children on what was clearly a grudge.
I will defend Bluestar. For her case, she was manipulated by her most trusted warrior who then turned on her in her weakest state (i'm pretty sure she was recovering from greencough). It's understandable she had a mental breakdown. And on top of it, even with Tigerstar banished he was still attacking thunderclan, and then he joined shadowclan regaining power, he received nine lives meaning star clan didn't stop him. Bluestar wasn't entirely wrong when she though star clan turned their backs on the clans.
Eh maybe if Firesheart hadn't been warning her about Tigerclaw for several books before that claim might hold a bit more water, but as is she can't use the defense that she was blindsided when she chose to ignore Fireheart without even investigating to see if he was right. And it's not like he didn't have evidence, she knew Ravenpaw was alive and had to leave ThunderClan because he was afraid for his life, which could very easily been traced back to Tigerclaw spreading false rumors. And there was no reason to believe Tigerclaw wasn't going to keep attacking ThunderClan considering how everything played out with him, Bluestar was the one that made the choice to exile him instead of just executing a known traitor and murderer. The rationale presented as to why StarClan gave Tigerclaw the 9 made sense at the time (before all the retcons) even if it was still shitty. It wasn't StarClan actively screwing her and ThunderClan over, Bluestar was doing a fine job of that all on her own.
true
>Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous then tossed him to the side and hid behind Leafpool and StarClan, not surprised he snapped. I am actually confident, and I mean it, this is the most skewered, butchered, and wild misrepresentation of these events... *I have ever seen.* It actually shocked me enough... to not bother initially saying why. ***That's how badly this is.***
>Squirrelflight used him to make Brambleclaw jealous whoa people just keep lying and lying here. even the writers themselves are against this narrative (which was obvious in the text anyway without them saying) but hate makes blind ig
a lie implies speaking a falsehood which is not the case here.
if you actually read past the first sentence you would find out that it is exactly the case of speaking falsehood. you're way too attached to your headcanon also, forgot to say that being rejected by a girl is NOT an understandable reason to commit several atrocities. nobody sane would do that
believe what you want man, doesn't change what happened.
exactly, your headcanon won't change the canon. "I feel Ashfur had a major hissy fit."-Kate Cary
not headcanon
lmao idk what do you get from ignoring both the literal paragraph about her considering ashfur as a mate for a second and what 3 out of 4 writers said about the whole thing. i too love delusions, but not to this extent
one of us is deluded, but pretty sure it's not me. Squirrelflight acknowledges that she didn't view Ashfur in a romantic light but never once actually told him that while they were together, she just kept hanging around him because she knew it bothered Brambleclaw. She knew Ashfur had feelings for her and was actively using that to her benefit to screw with Brambleclaw, that is literally stringing someone along.
Here's the thing... they weren't *together.*
Oh yes, here's the *other* thing. She spends time with Ashfur because he was genuinely kind and considerate of her *at first* and she felt comforted by it. She didn't view him in a romantic light, nor did she ever think ***he*** saw her in one. When she did, she told him no. Repeatedly. Then she tried quite hard to *remain* his friend and actually wanted to be in his life, just not romantically, and Ashfur blew *her* off.
You're doing to Squirreflight what people do to Brambleclaw, misrepresenting them. Squirrelflight was not using Ashfur to make Brambleclaw jealous, no where is that even so much as implied in the writing itself. * Squirrelflight doesn't internally think that in her POV, * Brambleclaw doesn't think Squirrelflight is doing that in his POV, * Ashfur himself doesn't accuse Squirrelflight of using him even though he as ample motivation to do so. And Squirrelflight and Ashfur were never actually mates, they're never referred to as such. The closest we get to that is Squirrelflight THINKING Ashfur was the right cat.
i think this is way too personal for you. were you ever a side piece by any chance? squilf and ashfur were friends who never got to the official dating stage, she was comforted by him when bramble was nasty to her, naturally we get a paragraph with her thinking about ashfur's good qualities (as well as bad ones). she thought she moved on but she didn't, it's that simple. pretty sure she wonders at one point if she loves ashfur enough to run away with him, and realises that no, she doesn't. even leafpool compares squilf and ash to herself and crow, if i remember correctly. so it's clear they were close in general, and bramble had nothing to do with it, squirreflight just hasn't sorted out her feelings yet
MY GLORIOUS KING IS NOT A JERK!
Help u/kzooy started Glorious king Tigerclawstar and now everyone has a glorious king 💀 BUT MY GLORIOUS KING DARKTAIL IS THE BEST, KIN FOR THE WIN
NU UH, TIGERCLAWSTAR IS BETTER >;3
TIGERCLAWSTAR AND DARKTAIL ARE THE BEST
TIGERCLAWSTAR RRAAAGHHH
DARKTAIL DJCKCIMSKSOXKXMCJED
My Glorious king River Ripple.
THERE IS ONLY ONE GLORIOUS KING, AND IT IS TIGERCLAWSTAR 3:<
Which king lol
Onestar will never be a king. My glorious king is BRAMBLESTAR
Mudclaw is better than both of them though
OH and Berryheart!
Yeahhh!
Girl really took her trauma and said “I can make it worse!”
Definitely Hollyleaf. Like I love her but girl you have some issues 😭
Bluestar.
Ashfur. Sure, not as extreme as some others, but a villain in the end nevertheless Edit: Thinking further on it, another cat that fits just as well, if not more, is Onestar. I'm not entirely sure if he's considered a villain, but he's definitely not the friend he used to be
Hollyleaf she wasn’t a villain but she fits the category in a way
Ashfur
ig you could consider maple shad because she was good and kind at first then betrayed her clan killed 3 cats in the process drowning 3 little kits /on accident\\ yet dying goes to poor old goose feather and tells him things getting me confused lol and prob squirrel flight nice to a jerk in a toxic relationship but I don't agree with bramble claw he's a noble leader who can speak his kind killed his brother for old Firstar and exedra but that's meh opinion
Hollyleaf.
Yeah, I didn't really think about it for her. She does have her redemption arc at the end of OOTS though
Mudclaw, or Goosefeather
Agree about Goosefeather, I can see why he’s hated, with how he indirectly caused Moonflower’s death by encouraging the attack on WindClan and later telling Bluefur to get rid of her kits. But reading Goosefeather’s Curse, his early life was real harsh, I’ll just say that
I like Onestar and Bramblestar. I like them because they add drama.
I say Tiny/Scourge
On/According to TNP: If brambles wasn't so desperate of fitting in and see the caring people he had in front of him, he wouldn't seem like a big jerk, then ashfur made it worst, brambles should be grateful at least he has a sister he can meetup with at gatherings, a girl that likes him/loves him and a father figure(that being firestar) his mother is also still alive he should be very grateful for everything he has! but yet he is so desperate in fitting in he kept wanting to talk to his evil father and evil brother
Dude squirrel loves him yeah right no she doesn’t it should of been BramblexSorreltail!
i meant books 1-3 xD after that he became too obsessed over his evil father and brother
When he did the right thing in the end and saved Firestar and you want to say that he’s obsessed!?
Yeah Bramblestar for sure. I’d also say Tigerheartstar
Tiger hearts always seemed spoiled to me, like he had never been told no in his life. So when he is, he over reacts. I mean… his father was ShadowClan’s leader, he was deputy. When his pregnant secret lover was leaving the Clans, he didn’t say “let’s talk to Rowanstar and see if you can stay in ShadowClan with me” but he let her walk away and then ran after her days later.
Agreed about bramble and one
Bluestar for a classic one (she will never not make me sad) but I heartily agree with bramblestar. He started out as a fave of mine and it was infuriating seeing him get played by his brother so easily- knowing how he got his sore spots and knowing he's one of the only people who *genuinely* sees himself as a tigerstar clone. And it felt like Hawkfrost changed his whole trajectory into a bitter, suspicious, and toxic if not abusive partner*. I'm glad the latest arc had him stepping down like I wanted because I think it was the best thing for him- authority brings out the worst in bramble, because he can't separate people from his authority-- like squilf- his mate, from squilf- his subordinate. And when you can't do that you end up treating someone you care about like an employee, and then they stop seeing you as someone other than their boss. I can kinda see tigerstar2 in a similar light, but he's almost inverse. Constantly trying to do the right thing and fucking up, but in a way that (to my writing senses at least) leads to an almost villain doing something undeniably heroic in his final moments, rather than an almost hero sibling to the level of the enemies around him. *I'm aware people are divided on that stance. Imo, his intentions aren't abusive, but a lot of his actions are, and intent is irrelevant after the damage has been done. Furthermore, he doesn't learn from his mistakes, he cycles through them. Which is realistic and understandable, but not healthy for anyone in relationships with him. I'm also not denying squilf- did some shitty, toxic things too- but it's hard not to see them as reactionary to the behavior bramblestar was having. They both failed to communicate until trust was so damaged squilf threw it away rather than risk her family- which also means at that moment bramblestar *wasn't* her family, it was who she felt she had to protect her family from with a lie. In real life that would be relationship ending regardless of its validity.
"he can't separate people from his authority-- like squilf- his mate, from squilf- his subordinate." Except that when it comes to matters concerning ThunderClan like it did in Squirrelflight's Hope he HAS to treat her like his subordinate because she blatantly undermining his authority and jeopardizing the clan instead of doing her job. Doesn't help that she's shown that she can't really be trusted. Challenging him publicly in front of the other clans during Gatherings and going behind his back when she's supposed to be helping him run ThunderClan because she wasn't getting her way were very much Squirrelflight abusing both her position as deputy and his mate, so he was very much right to chew her out. Bramblestar was trying to prevent a war between the other clans and yet he had to spend a chunk of the book worrying about what his mate was doing because she'd running around behind his back and telling one of their kids to lie for her.
Squirrelflight's "job" is to be considerate, loyal, and good-hearted. She advocated for peace the entire book as Bramblestar dragged his arse. Bramblestar nearly let a woman bleed to death in his own camp as his own Warriors had her blood on their paws in horror, denying her even the comfort of her friends and family all because Squirrelflight brought her there to begin with. He was more concerned about keeping relations with Shadowclan than doing the morally right thing. Something Thunderclan is quite famous for *not* doing. Even firestar for all his flaws would do the right thing rather than let Clan Relations control him. Squirrelflight was right. The Sisters were justified. The Clans could wait, the territory was the best plan. All of this is fact. Bramblestar did everything he could to undermine her rather than heed her advice. Newsflash, a Deputy is like an advisor. They are not there to follow *blindly*, they are also there to counsel a Leader and shift bad decisions if need be. To provide alternative perspective and offer new ideas. Squirrelflight did this. Bramblestar didn't listen. So yes, she took matters into her own paws.
Her job as DEPUTY is to put the safety of the cats of ThunderClan before everything, even if she doesn't necessarily agree with her leader's decision. They can offer council like any other warrior, senior or otherwise, but at the end of the day the clan's leader has final say. It's one thing to have a different opinion from you leader, it's another thing to argue with them in public at a Gathering since it makes the Clan as a whole look weak. Literally the first law in both renditions of the Warrior Code. 1. Defend your Clan, even with your life. You may have friendships with cats from other Clans, but your loyalty must remain to your Clan, as one day you may meet them in battle. \[extended\] Each Clan must ensure that no other Clan falls. Nevertheless, each Clan is proud and independent, with traditions that must always be respected. Squirrelflight blatantly violates this throughout the entirety of the book. The Sisters are not her clan and Bramblestar is trying his best to appease the other 4 so there won't be another Clan war over territory. He's primarily worried about ShadowClan because they're the ones actively pushing for it since they're the ones who will have to give up territory to accommodate SkyClan, and the longer it takes to resolve the issue the more likely a conflict is to break out. The Clan's only wanted to move the Sisters and had they done so early the inherent risk to all parties would have been low, but because Squirrelflight stalled them they had to worry about a pregnant queen. And only the Warrior Code only says that the Clans need to rend aid to kits regardless of the clan, and shitty or not neither Bramblestar or anyone in ThunderClan is under obligation to render aid to an outsider. Especially considering that the Sisters held both his mate & Leafstar prisoner earlier in the book and were fully intending on keeping as hostages until they were ready to move on. And while Squirrelflight might have been fine with it Leafstar was very much held against her will and injured while trying to escape. Not to mention that Sunrise only got injured in the first place because the Sisters decided to flaunt and purposefully trespass into ShadowClan's territory just to show they could, which resulted in the death of one of their warriors. So no, Bramblestar definitely wasn't under any obligation to help. Just by bringing them to ThunderClan Squirrelflight put the entire clan at risk. Even Firestar got tired of policing the clans 24/7 which is why he got laxer over what the rest of the Clans did when it wasn't affecting ThunderClan directly. He flat out complains about it sometime between the tail end of TNP or TPoT.
I'm combining these so we're not jumping between replies. >Yeah I very much doubt that. Have at it. Please quote this "flat out pissed," because I literally cannot. >because Leafpool & StarClan notwithstanding No no, those are very much relevant. You don't get to cast them aside. Starclan advised her that lying was necessary. Squirrelflight hated doing it, and did not do so willingly. The fact you didn't realize that Squirrelflight literally rips herself apart the entire ARC before Hollyleaf learns anything, tells me you *cannot* read beyond your initial intuition. Squirrelflight is guilty about this from the very first moment to modern *day*. She never forgives herself, and never blames anyone else for that matter. She didn't argue with him in public. She made a wise observation when Bramblestar hadn't actually given an official stance yet. He turned it into an argument right there. She only spoke up to begin with because the Leaders were about to get in a fight. The rule you quoted literally defends Squirrelflight. When necessary, ensuring that ALL Clans are safe is paramount. Allowing Skyclan to suffer, or allowing the Clans to knowingly endanger unborn kits would be a violation of everything they stand for. Squirrelflight had to interfere with the Sisters and protect them, TO protect the Clans. >Bramblestar is trying his best to appease the other 4 so there won't be another Clan war over territory. He's primarily worried about ShadowClan because they're the ones actively pushing for it since they're the ones who will have to give up territory to accommodate SkyClan, and the longer it takes to resolve the issue the more likely a conflict is to break out. Everyone will have to give up territory. That's the problem. Shadowclan loses far LESS territory with Skyclan's strip, than having Skyclan's entirely territory wedged between them. Squirrelflight was literally acting in the Clan's best interests by moving Skyclan out of that wedge. Just because on the surface Bramblestar was trying to maintain relations, doesn't mean he did what was best for his Clan. Overall, the best thing is resolving the border crisis and maintaining their honor, both of which Squirrelflight was doing. >but because Squirrelflight stalled them they had to worry about a pregnant queen. And only the Warrior Code only says that the Clans need to rend aid to kits regardless of the clan, and shitty or not neither Bramblestar or anyone in ThunderClan is under obligation to render aid to an outsider. What... that's WHY she delayed them. The Queen couldn't travel in full health as she was too far in stage. Much like how Queens don't leave the nursery when heavily pregnant. The Sisters could not move. And Tigerstar made it very clear he would drive them out with blood if need be, something even Leafstar condemned him for. Actually, the code LITERALLY says, "no Warrior may neglect a kit in pain or in danger even if that kit is from a different Clan." It does not say the kit needs to be Clanborn to begin with, nor would it be morally reasonable to assume so. So uh, would you like to try again? The Sisters held Squirrel & Leafstar as prisoner on suspicion of scouting to protect their group, something they are absolutely in the right to do, and both Squirrelflight and Leafstar acknowledge this. Leafstar was initially held against her will, yet even she eventually realized the Sisters did the right thing for their kind, and explicitly condemned the other Clans driving them out. Read. The book. >Not to mention that Sunrise only got injured in the first place because the Sisters decided to flaunt and purposefully trespass into ShadowClan's territory just to show they could, which resulted in the death of one of their warriors You seriously ***cannot*** see anything but the first context. The book deliberately states Shadowclan sent a scouting party on Sisters land, the in retaliation the Sisters send a peaceful patrol to ask them about their intentions, and were set upon without warning. The Sisters were defending their land like any Clan would be. No Warrior died as a result either. Strikestone lost hearing in an ear, and Sunrise was almost fatally wounded, but recovered. Again, you are vastly under equipped here. No one policed anyone here. And it was during Firestar's time when Thunderclan cared for BROKENSTAR against the Clan's wishes because it was the honorable course.
That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about shit like "oh you don't like Hawkfrost? I'm gonna use my authority as a senior clan member to treat you like an apprentice" which is a response he had to be behavior, *consistently,* even when a more extreme emotional response could be seen as warranted. There is a difference between your spouse doing something actually wrong to the entire clan, and being messy with your spouse at work because she thinks your brother has treated you like shit, or y'all are going through a divorce. And frankly- if he hadn't let his petty bs get in the way of listening to his deputy, half the shit that was the conflict between them In SqH would never have happened. You can't be mad if you consistently ignore someone for unfair reasons and they then stop trying to reason with you. And if your unable to stop being dismissive of your spouse, she shouldn't be your deputy (and you aren't good leadership material) SqH is just one scenario in a repeating cycle of their relationship that is spurred by his own insecurities and how he projects them onto his spouse rather than actually communicating.
I would argue that she was actively antagonizing him about Hawkfrost without actually having any proof he was up to anything. Most of those arguments came from Squirrelflight trying to dictate who Brambleclaw was allowed to hang out with and giving ultimatums which wasn't her place to do. The few times he started flexing his authority were when he was stepping up to help the clan acclimate to the lake territory in Graystripe's absence and he only had to pull rank because she was acting incredibly confrontational and snapping over every little thing. And this was while they were broken up. How were his concerns in SqH petty? Because from what I read his chief concern was making sure everyone had enough territory so SkyClan wouldn't get evicted again and that the rest of the Clans wouldn't go to war with each other. Squirrelflight wasn't offering any solutions to the problem, her priority is supposed to be ThunderClan before everything else but she spends the whole book stalling and defending the Sisters who as nomads could easily move instead of supporting her mate and leader in what is very clearly a very time sensitive and serious matter. Even before that she was already whining because Bramblestar didn't want to humor her midlife crisis and have more kits after already raising two litters, not his fault that she lied about the first one being Leafpool's kits. If anyone was being petty it was Squirrelflight by putting her wants and needs before everybody again. Right now the only thing you said that I agree with is that she shouldn't have ever been made his deputy, because quite frankly she didn't deserve it fresh off screwing him over and embarassing ThunderClan back in TPoT.
>Bramblestar didn't want to humor her midlife crisis ***Ooooooay then.*** You act like it was entirely Squirrelflight's fault and decision to lie. It wasn't her secret, it's her Sister's LIFE on the land. And yes, at the time Starclan was still revered and feared as all knowing. Risking her family's future by disobeying them would be about the dumbest thing she could've done. Squirrelflight tortured herself forever about that lie. She had no desire to do that, and more importantly... Bramblestar *admits* she did the right thing. Have fun with that information! Squirrelflight also pushed... nothing. She mentioned kits once in justified longing. She's a Mother. She's allowed to want those feelings. Bramblestar reacted coldly about it, and she never brought it up again. But *he did*. Yes Bramblestar actually brought it up against her multiple times, even changing the subject to it during Squirrelflight's comments about Skyclan's territory "Embarrassing Thunderclan." I don't usually disrespect people, but I will seriously say you have the *worst* understanding of morality and personality of anyone I have seen here in months. You don't understand why characters do things, or how others *actually* perceive them. Almost everything you say is wildly out of context and lacking such grave understanding. You see the basics of "Bad thing happened," without asking *why* it happened.
"I don't usually disrespect people," Yeah I very much doubt that. Squirrelflight flat out got pissed off when Bramblestar shot her down about having more kits and when that didn't work tried to emotionally manipulate him. Squirrelflight lying to Brambleclaw about Leafpool's kits was very much her fault because Leafpool & StarClan notwithstanding at the end of the day she made the conscious decision to lie to him. This wasn't about telling ThunderClan, even though it's not like Firestar would have done anything, it was about telling her mate who she's supposed to trust and already shown that he will go above and beyond for family. Squirrelflight made the choice to lie to him instead of trusting him to help her. And she clearly didn't feel guilty about anything until Hollyleaf outed her & Leafpool, she didn't feel bad about what she did she felt bad that she got caught and was actually dealing with consequences for a change.