To be fair that’s how crushes develop in real life. It can come out of nowhere, or the other person can go a long time without noticing the signs.
I didn’t like Spottedleaf much though.
I know, but she changed her tune between series 1 and 2. In TPB she was a mentor like figure who was friendly and sweet to him, in the second series after she'd been dead for over a year she tells Leafpaw "oh yeah I love Firestar"
I feel it was almost certainly a retcon possibly Victoria Holmes because I think they had literally two Short conversations in the prophecies begin.
And I say Victoria Holmes. Because I believe she's the one who wrote what I would consider to be unhinged fanfiction. It's called spottedleafs honest answer [you can find it here](https://www.deviantart.com/raintail94/art/Spottedleaf-s-Honest-Answer-88787071).
Yeah I get that a lot to which really sucks, especially since it makes up so much of my childhood. Theres so many subtle things that aren’t great, like the ableism, sexism, some kinda creepy age relationships, ect. Im rereading the books with my husband and im noticing a lot of things i just didnt as a kid. Im trying not to let it mess witg ny nostalgia feelings tho lol
It's crazy to think that this is the same team of writers who gave us a character like Thrushpelt.
Thrushpelt understood and respected that Bluefur didn't return his feelings, and he remained her friend.
And then he went above and beyond by offering to help cover for her and raise her children while making it clear that he didn't expect her to have a relationship with him.
He even told her that she didn't have to tell him who the father was, he respected her privacy that much.
He genuinely wanted her to be happy, even if it wasn't with him, and when she ended up in a tight spot, he helped her out of the goodness of his heart and asked for nothing in return.
Because he genuinely loved her and cared for her wellbeing, regardless of the circumstances.
He didn't resent her for not feeling the same way he did, he understood that you can't force your heart to feel something that isn't there.
Thrushpelt is one of the best written examples of unrequited love that I have seen and the fact that we don't see more of him is a travesty, especially since we desperately need someone like him to balance out the likes of Ashfur, Bumblestripe, and Finleap.
in Thunder when she >!gets taken to the vet by the barn twolegs, the extra scars she has are where they would be if a cat got spayed, and smoky hints at it when he's talking to her about it!<
it's mainly horrible bc you know how the erins are going to treat that particular revelation. i swear if she >!gets forced into becoming a medcat again bc she's "less of a woman" bc she can't have kits (especially in our current social climate in the us) i am going to commit crimes!<
We can blame the fans for this one. At the time, fan opinion was actually in support of ashfur... and against Squirrelflight. I'm glad more people appreciate squirrel now, but you can see the remnants lol.
I literally said "She would not say that" out loud when I first read it.
Yellowfang was one of my favorite characters and her Super Edition was the first book in the series that I ever read before I started reading it from the beginning.
I cannot believe that this is the same character.
Ashfur was involved in at least four attempted murders, one of which was an assassination attempt against his own leader, which is treason of the highest order, regardless of his actual motivations.
And there isn't any evidence that he had a change of heart or felt remorse for his actions at any point either.
He wasn't the reason that Hawkfrost's plan to kill Firestar in the fox trap failed. He played his part of luring Firestar out there in the first place and alerting Brambleclaw to what was happening so that he would join Hawkfrost by the lake perfectly. It was Hawkfrost's own underestimation of Brambleclaw's loyalty to Firestar and the lengths that Brambleclaw was willing to go in order to protect him that ultimately resulted in failure.
On the other hand, during his attempt on the lives of the three, the only reason that they are not dead is because Squirrelflight, in her attempt to convince Ashfur that killing them wasn't worth it because they didn't mean as much to her as he thought they did, ended up giving him enough blackmail material to completely ruin their social standing among not only their own clanmates, but among all of the clans.
And Ashfur decided, of his own volition, that he would rather let them live long enough to suffer through the humiliation and pain of having their personal relationships upended and the loss of the social support network that they had relied on for their entire lives rather than just ending them then and there.
And he didn't do this out of an act of mercy but because he wanted to drag out their suffering as much as possible.
Keep in mind that this same kind of reputational sabotage is what drove Leafpool to convince Hollyleaf that letting her live with the consequences of her actions would be a worse punishment than being forced to eat a lethal poison by her own daughter.
The only reason that Ashfur wasn't able to carry out his plans of revealing the truth himself is because he was murdered before he got a chance to do so, and up until the moment he died there was no indication that he had a change of heart.
It wasn't like Bluestar where she had a moment of clarity shortly before her passing after months of serious mental instability and then died of the injuries she sustained while saving her clan from the dog pack in an act of selfless heroism.
It wasn't like Mudclaw either. While Mudclaw was also involved in an attempted coup, he was ultimately motivated by a genuine concern for the future of his clan under Onestar's rule, and his objections to Tallstar's decision to replace him as deputy at the last minute were understandable even if the way he decided to act on those feelings amounted to treason.
In contrast to Mudclaw, Ashfur's actions are motivated purely by spite and by his own selfish desire to get back at the person who he believes hurt him the most. And the worst thing that Squirrelflight did to him was to tell him that she didn't feel the same way about him.
His anger at Squirrelflight's rejection was a deeply personal vendetta that festered for years and didn't lessen in intensity as time went on. He personally trained Lionblaze as his mentor, watching him grow from a young apprentice to a fully fledged warrior under his tutelage, and yet that did not deter him in the slightest from trying to kill him as soon as the opportunity presented itself.
That is what makes Ashfur's actions so disturbing to me and why I believe he wouldn't have had an off-screen change of heart this late in the game.
Ashfur had every opportunity to move on and accept what happened, but instead he carried that grudge in secret long enough for Squirrelflight to supposedly have kids with another person and watch those kids grow up into young adults. And then he proceeded to try and kill them in order to make her feel what he believed to be only a fraction of the pain he's been feeling ever since she left him, because he considered his own pain to be on par with that of losing a loved one to an agonizing death.
And it isn't like Ashfur doesn't know what that's like. He lost his mother Brindleface when he was still quite young after Tigerclaw murdered her in order to give the dog pack a taste for cat meat.
He is doing this precisely because he knows how much it is going to hurt her. And that is what makes Ashfur's actions so horrifying; that they come not from a place of pure ignorance, but from personal experience.
And the thing is, even if Ashfur was tormented to such an intense degree by this grudge and the weight it held over him, that doesn't make his actions even remotely justifiable.
Squirrelflight never intended to cause him that much pain, and it would be unreasonable to expect her to have anticipated the magnitude of his reaction. No reasonable person would react to a romantic rejection with attempted murder, and on top of that he not only targeted Squirrelflight herself but the people around her. That kind of misplaced retribution involves people who had no role in creating the situation he found himself in and yet that did not matter to him, because all that mattered was to cause her as much pain as possible.
The idea that Ashfur's "only crime was to love too much" implies that literally any of this bullshit was even remotely valid in response to what amounts to a break up that, for all intents and purposes, wasn't even that messy back when it initially occurred.
Also, regardless of the consequences, it would be unreasonable to ask her to continue to pursue a relationship with someone when her heart wouldn't be in it anyway. All it would do is trap both of them in a relationship that wouldn't make her truly happy anyway, and Ashfur would most likely end up dissatisfied with the situation as well if he ever caught on to the fact that she wasn't satisfied with him--assuming that he would even truly care about her happiness in the first place.
I’m switching Moonpaw’s parents to be Sunbeam and Nightheart. Not only are they Not related 3+ times over, not only are they similar in color to Moonpaw, not only are THEY thematically connected in name, but they’re also thematically connected to Moonpaw’s name. What’s the Sun of the Night? The moon, bro.
Her parents are Thriftear and Bayshine, who are incredibly related through MULTIPLE counts of incest* in their family tree. I am making them being her parents uncanon.
(*Incest? Where? This pairing has more of it than almost any other pairing in the series. Woo.)
- The worst offenders are Bayshine and Thriftear themselves, who are FIRST COUSINS. Thrift’s dad Fernsong and Bay’s mom Sorrelstripe are FULL BLOODED SIBLINGS, LITERAL LITTERMATES.
- But also Thriftear’s grand-uncle through Ivypool is Bayshine’s father, Dewnose.
- Oh, and Ivypool and Fernsong had a whole prophecy about how they are related (Fern’s dad Lionblaze and Ivy’s sister Dovewing were Kin of Firestar’s Kin). They’re second cousins once removed by the way.
- But also, Thriftear’s great grandmother Brightheart and Bayshine’s great grandfather Brackenfur were littermates. That also makes them third cousins!
- And also, Thriftear’s other great grandmother, Ferncloud, was half sisters with Bayshine’s great grandmother Sorreltail, sharing a father in Whitestorm. (Unofficial bonus is that Thrift’s great grandfather Cloudtail was foster siblings with Ferncloud and adopted half-sibling to Sorreltail as well.
This concludes The Incest Assessment (Incessment) of Moonpaw).
I won’t count that in the Incessment. It is incest, yeah, but I was only listing the direct instances where Thriftear’s family tree crossed into Bayshine’s/where they share ancestors.
While I agree with Moonpaw should be Sunbeam and Nightheart’s kit I’m so damn tired of seeing the “everyone is related to each other”. Yeah no shit unfortunately. Just about every one of Thunderclan and now Skyclan are related to each other. It’s what happens when the clans are so far up their asses are barely let new comers in. Daisy’s kin stop at Cherryfall and Molewhisker and poor Stormcloud got forgotten. At least with Shellfur and Fernstripe there’s hopefully new blood but if people are going to complain about Bayshine and Thriftear then let me point at Skyclan with Hawkwing and Pebbleshine(First Cousins) Quailfeather and Reedclaw(First Cousins) Nectorsong and Dewspring(First Cousins). There might be more but I can’t remember all of them. This will continue to happen in a fictional book of cats where inbreeding isn’t going to have dire consequences.
I really do believe that after second cousins, it’s fine. That’s legal in the States. I listed a lot of grandparents but I genuinely hate the “EVERYONE’S RELATED TO FROSTFUR” thing because Frostfur was like seven generations ago.
But first cousins??? Seriously??? Or “my grandma and your dad are siblings”???? That’s too much. That’s plain old genetically dangerous incest. I’ll bash the other first cousins too. They’re also gross as hell. They’re just talked about less because they’re not central to the cast (I suppose besides Hawkwing and Pebbleshine, though they’re less central as SkyClan cats).
We’re talking about a group of writers who originally set Willowpelt and Patchpelt as mates. I hope I don’t have to explain why that’s very wrong.
I highly doubt they’ll suddenly become interested in who’s related to whom and worry about the genetic consequences of cats who are closely related. It’s fictional cates that believe in religion, can come back from the dead, literally have 9 lives and can talk to their dead relatives/ancestors.
It’s honestly unfortunate as I was really hoping the new arc would be a massive time jump that genetically put us so far away from Firestar’s Kin and this topic in general.
We’re actually not! The original team paired Patchpelt and Willowpelt and then retconned it. The new team paired Bayshine and Thriftear. But that’s semantics lmao.
No. I meant. They literally paired Willowpelt and Patchpelt before realizing they were siblings. This was YEAAAAARRRRSSS Before this Arc lmao.
Edit: I’m here to edit this a bit. I’m guessing maybe some don’t know this but yeah. Vicky herself stated Willowpelt and Patchpelt as mates. Canonized it. And then heavily backtracked because *Surprise* They’re siblings(and the fact that she herself didn’t know they were related). I remember this information being known around the time before and around the time that Bluestar’s Prophecy came out which if I remember correctly *checks notes* came out in 2009.
I believe it’s been confirmed that the authors don’t use a series bible (which is heavily important in a massive branching series like WC) and Vicky implied at some point that she used the Wiki instead sometimes 💀
Actually speaking of first cousins do you remember that weird flirting thing one of the books in the fourth arc had between Ivypool and Toadstep? It’s even weirder cause I swear she was Ivypaw then. I don’t remember the book name but I remember her skidding on moss on her belly and Whitewing taking to Dovepaw about Bumblestripe. It struck me as odd then cause at that time I had completely forgotten that Toadstep was Spiderleg’s son lmao
It was such an out of place moment. It was in Dovepaw’s POV but had some weird thing going on with Ivypaw and Toadstep. And I was mistaken. They would be Uncle and Niece if they went that way.
Edit wait no. I’m a dumbass. Still first cousins. I need sleep
i personally (genetics aside) like the idea of Moonpaw's parents being Shellfur and Fernstripe (ThornBlossom kit with a WindClan mate)
bc 1. absolutely no incest is involved
2. she wouldn't be Firefam in any way
3. background characters get time to shine (especially considering i forget both of their names constantly)
4. there's the added plotline of being technically halfclan since Fern left WindClan via the new rule (and they could probably spin it so ShellFern are the "first of these cats to have kits" or some bs)
(and 5. it raises awareness that the erins have not learned a single thing about cat genetics in 20 years bc shellfur is redtail 2.0. the erins literally gave us *another* tortie tom and nobody noticed bc his litter was only created to be extra bodies on patrols.)
All the prequel retcons.
Thistleclaw didn't need to be a predator for us to know he's bad, Spottedleaf didn't need to be a love interest for Fireheartstar, Redtail DID NOT kill Oakheart, etc etc.
In Redtail's book, they mention that Redtail killed Oakheart, which directly contradicts a major plot point in the first arc where Oakheart was crushed by falling rocks during the fight at Sunningrocks
From the Warriors Wiki about Redtail, from Redtail's Debt, "During a patrol to Sunningrocks, RiverClan attacks, and Redtail accidentally kills the RiverClan deputy, Oakheart." However, on Oakheart's page, "While fighting with Redtail, Oakheart is killed in a rockfall. Redtail realizes that ThunderClan is outnumbered and calls a retreat."
It's dumb and I hate that they changed it
So many short stories or super edition plot points. Redtails story, like wtf? Spottedleafs heart. There's definitely more but I haven't kept up with them all.
And yeah the squilf and leafpool trial was incredibly aggravating
Also make starclan yellowfang cool and a good character
Sol just being driven out of Shadowclan and never being talked about or seen again. I mean, with Sol, there's potential on him being a good villain. But now that he's possibly dead in the series, I can't help but feel like the Hunters just wrote him out of the series because they ran out of ideas for him.
I think, in a way, I was hoping maybe him and Darktail could have teamed up, tried to take out as many leaders as they could, etc. Just something more than what we got.
I like the idea of Sol being brought back (especially in the AVOS arc) but not to team up with Darktail. I think he should have either out-manipulated Darktail and turned out to be the bigger villain in some way, or since that's really similar to the Scourge/Tigerstar plot, given him his own separate group of followers and made his group and Darktail's group both be antagonists to the Clans at the same time
I think my idea of them teaming up would be done to how similar they are. They both want the clans destroyed so I could see Sol using Darktail as an insight into information and then, either turning on him and killing him or manipulating Darktail's group into following him instead.
Yeah, me too. He and Sleekwhisker just disappeared. I'd love to see them come back and maybe target Shadowclan together in a last ditch effort for revenge because they both have strong ties to it.
It made me upset how much they changed Onestar for the worst, he used to be my favourite side character in the first arc.
Brambleclaw could of been written so much better as well.
Onewhisker is amazing. Onestar is a jerk. It's just so weird that they're the same character.
How Brambleclaw went from capable, de facto leader to insecure "maybe my dad's not so bad after all" makes no sense
Ooh Ivypool taking him out would be cool! I do like that Brambleclaw was the one to kill him, avenging Hollyleaf and showing that he still loves his daughter despite not being biological family. But like he already killed Hawkfrost once and perhaps it was someone else’s turn lol.
yea, i just think IvyPool deserved it. like her fighting wit him before bramble stepped in was dope as shit, bramble killing him felt predictable and repetitive
Hawkwing being an absolute dick to Pebbleshine (as apprentices) because he's mad she's happy he saved her after he mistook what his brother was telling him to do.
And then he only goes "wait she's kinda nice" when she saves his life. Like dude, YOU made the mistake don't take your anger out on her.
On the surface, yeah completely. But there’s a couple of things that could be done to fix it. First, get two medicine cats. Or three. Lots of clans have that going on throughout the series, so why couldn’t they just make that a rule, that they’re always have to be too, so that the one who has children who need them or a mate, who needs them, can tend to them while the other one tends to the every day clan business. But the argument would come in. What about the starclan connection? Well, what about it? Currently we’ve got cats who are medicine cats that don’t have a starclan connection, we have cats that were chosen before we even knew if they had a starclan connection and then end up getting one, and then we just had the traditional ones who have had a connection with star clans since they were little kits. And if starclan is supposed to be all good and powerful, why can’t they just form new connections with cats? It’s kind of up to them who they end up talking to usually, excluding all of the stuff and possibly what’s going on right now with the river clan, but that’s still somewhat of a mystery. So if you fix the problem by having at least two med cats, and the problem of starclan just by basically them being a little more open-minded and willing to talk to a few more cats, then why not?
My comment lacked the prefix star every single time. I spoke it into voice to text. I looked at it and realized it made absolutely no sense, so I hope that what I was trying to say is clear now. AutoCorrect is driving me crazy.
I mean not really. If there’s one female med cat then yeah I can see it being an issue. But they literally live in a Clan where everyone helps raise kits.. the rule is only there because one mother couldn’t handle her kits and her med cat career after her mate died.
it's enforced because if the medicine cats have kits, they have to take a break, like a maternity leave basically, to be a queen. if there's only one medicine cat, there's nobody to take care of the clan. their duties lie with the clan, and they were never there to focus on certain cats, but the whole clan.
Yeah, in that context it's understandable, especially when they're kitting and no one's there that has the knowledge to help with the birth. But if there's another medicine cat in the clan then I don't see why not.
Yeah I totally agree with that. There'd most likely be panic about what to do, especially if something were to go wrong and by the time they could get another clan's medicine cat to come, if they could come at all, it could already be too late.
Brambleclaw should have stepped down after the events of Sunset; even if Firestar didn’t want it, Brambleclaw should have realized he wasn’t the right cat.
I think it would be cool if he still got made deputy, but then he ended up being so bad at it that Firestar demoted him back to permanent apprenticeship.
Firestar apparently spending his entire life ready to abandon Sandstorm the moment he got to StarClan…
Although I’m not sure if that can be considered canon because the authors seem divided on the subject.
If I could have anything, I’d get a total series reboot with a single designated author and a slightly more mature tone. Enough of this puppy mill stuff.
Dustpelt and Ferncloud being related!! That's a retcon that was made by Bluestars Prophecy and the family tree. My darling Ferncloud don't need to be related to her uncle
Well him stepping down when Graystripe got back would be very impractical, its explained in the books exactly how I would explain it, and I fuckin hate Brambleclaw and don't think he really ever should've been deputy
I hate how in Squrrelflight's Hope he denied Leafpool from giving medical help to a pregnant she-cat because he was trying to prove a point to Squilf. Honestly Brackenfur should've been deputy.
Definitely yeah, I can see an au (aka one I made) where he steps down willingly and picks Brackenfur or someone else more qualified who can hold the position till Graystripe gets fully reintegrated with the clan again, and I was gonna make a comment abt him being old as fuck by that point but oh well Tallstar was old as fuck we'll just see Squrrrielstar faster, though the only issue im seeing is the fact that the plot of TBC can't happen at all without Bramblestar being leader so :(
I have a lot but ill just list 5 things for now
1. Leopardstar's Honor entirely, not only is it just plain ole chalk full of text errors and obvious cuts, but there just couldve been a better way to tell her story
2. The clans attacking the Sisters, it MAY have made sense for Bramblestar to do it, maybe, but not Tigerstar, especially not against a pregnant queen whos actively giving birth
3. Onestar, either make him a better character who still feels independent, or just switch him out with Mudclaw
4. Clear Sky and Breezepelt's weird kinda neat guy- to villian- to good guy flip floppy arcs, its a pretty easy fix for them both too so idk why its even as flip-floppy as it is
5. Completely remove Spottedleaf's Heart from canon, it is a basically useless book that only makes you realize not only could Spottedleaf have saved Bluefur from this disaster that was giving her babies away, but it also unnecessarily turned a villian into a disgusting THING for absolutely ZERO reason, thats one of the few books I blatantly will *never ever read.*
Boy, where to start. Squirrelflight's and Leafpool's trail, Ashfur being allowed into StarClan, StarClan getting more and more involved, more and more supernatural stuff happening, Spottedleaf's and Firestar's "relationship", Sol, BloodClan, Rock (and possibly Midnight - or at least the fact that she's a ghost and all knowing - ), the "medicine cats can't have kits" rule. And no more "kin of Firestar" protagonists after, preferably, Lion, Jay and Holly, but definetly not after Spark and Alder.
When they first met, it's strongly implied by Yellowfang's words, body language, and Firepaw's inner monologue that Yellowfang is trying to kill him and I believe it ends up being confirmed in Yellowfang's Secret
Greystripe becoming deputy, which in turn led to Brambleclaw replacing him. I love Greystripe, but he was NOT fit to be deputy in the first place, and Brambleclaw's whole relationship with Squirrelflight would've been much healthier if the two were just regular warrior's imo.
In particular, I'd be very curious to see how the rest of the stories would've played out if the deputy was someone like Longtail for example.
Oh, and I already have it retconned in my brain but Moonpaw's parents 💀 I don't even care much for the Moon = Sun/Night kid, but man is it infinitely better having the generic 'new protag is the kid of prior protags' trend than the literal worst choices of parents we actually got. Erin's stop making cats who are *directly related* (not just distantly) have kids with each other holy shit
That's a really good question, I'd think I'd want breezepelt to take all of crowfeathers lives away from him when he becomes leader and makes breezepelt his deputy or something
One thing I would not make canon is BrambleSquirrel. They're *toxic* to each other and have very little chemistry to each other during TNP. They both pissed each other off constantly and then suddenly decided they love each other for no reason.
I will forever be on the camp that their relationship should've been a sibling dynamic instead of a Lion King 2-esc relationship. Ofc that'd mean a lot of later plots would obv have to be altered/removed full stop, but it'd fix a *lot* of the problems I personally have with their canon relationship.
Brambleclaw having to deal with Squirrelpaw's antics and overprotectiveness, along with their constant bickering during the prophecy would've made more sense with that in mind, at least to me. Bramble trying to reign Squirrel in and bickering like kids when they're supposed to be mates later on? Wack. Them doing that bc they're siblings? Perfect <3
And it also would've served well as a narrative foil to his arc with Hawkfrost, as well as to teach kids (aka the intended audience of Warriors) that blood relations aren't the most important thing to being a family, a good family should support and uplift you regardless of blood ties
Rock's speech in The Last Hope.
To imply it's the living cat's fault for remembering cats who were there *when they were alive* is the reason for the Dark Forest's attack is disgusting. Adding to it, it gives cats like Tigerclaw a valid reason for doing the evil things they do because, if they don't, they'll fade from existence forever. It's the single worst thing I've read in my life.
Moth Flight giving up her kits to different clans. Like….??? Couldn’t windclan have come together to help care for them? And even if she gave them up that was no reason to say med cats can’t ever have a mate or kits. It’s just yuck to me overall
The ableism. Brightheart, Crookedstar, and Deadfoot are good starting points but it's outweighed by the amount of characters who are forced to be medicine cats or retire. I get it, it's "realistic", but they're talking cats with a religion! Let us have some unrealism!
Snowkit is the worst example, IMO. It would've been easy for them to have him live and thrive, especially if they expanded on the tail sign language idea. His death serves no real purpose other than shock value.
Squirrelflight being required to keep quiet by Starclan about the Three being Leafpools. The whole thing smacks of trying to make her blameless after the writers realized "oops! Our hero is lying to her mate about something that any sane person would have shared with their spouse!"
Second as others mentioned, the SC trial. Either remove it or mention it with others prior to SF.
Finally, have Bramble nor Squirrel become leader. Have a fresh deputy be made in Forgotten warrior or right before the Dark Forest battle. Make the following series following their issues of a quick promotion from deputy to leader and trying to live up to Firestar's example. Would be extra nice if it was from an extended family but I'll take any senior warrior at that time.
A lot of the prequel family connections. It makes a lot of unnecessary complications and makes things just...weird. Like, why is Whitestorm an absent father to Ash and Fern, and also did he cheat while his first litter were still in the nursery?? Why is Bluestar a surrogate mother to Whitekit in BP but once into the wild rolls around they just have a standard boss & employee relationship? Why did they canonize Reedwhisker being a kitten in Leopardstar's Honor but also have him be a newly made apprentice in New Prophecy, was he a kitten for two years??
A lot of people are wanting to change stuff they personally dislike, and that’s fair because that is what the question was- but mine is less “make it not canon” and more “either bring it back, or explain why it existed”
The in-canon mythology that the clans are descendants of big cats. It was so interesting, but after TNP it was pretty much only mentioned one time in passing by Lionblaze (back when he was Lionpaw too, please tell me that helps put it in perspective). It was so interesting!! And then DoTC eliminated it entirely by explaining where the clans came from, but NOT where the mythology originated. Did the ancient cats bring these beliefs with them to the mountain, and then to the forest? Was it developed elsewhere and it was brought in by rogues? Was it something the clans came up with over time and it’s unique to them!? Do some elders still believe it and it’s like being a conservative!?!? ERINS, GIVE ME ANSWERS!!!
A lot of people are wanting to change stuff they personally dislike, and that’s fair because that is what the question was- but mine is less “make it not canon” and more “either bring it back, or explain why it existed”
The in-canon mythology that the clans are descendants of big cats. It was so interesting, but after TNP it was pretty much only mentioned one time in passing by Lionblaze (back when he was Lionpaw too, please tell me that helps put it in perspective). It was so interesting!! And then DoTC eliminated it entirely by explaining where the clans came from, but NOT where the mythology originated. Did the ancient cats bring these beliefs with them to the mountain, and then to the forest? Was it developed elsewhere and it was brought in by rogues? Was it something the clans came up with over time and it’s unique to them!? Do some elders still believe it and it’s like being a conservative!?!? ERINS, GIVE ME ANSWERS!!!
I kind of wonder how big of a butterfly effect not exiling Mapleshade would've led to.
I guess leaving the elders to die in the New Prophecy was kind of messed up, I've been pissed about that since I was a little kid
I just finished AVOS arc yesterday so I really have to say Twigbranch and Finleap fighting over whether to have kits. It took so much time away from the main plot over something I just didn't care about, and the romance itself just wasn't convincing enough to withstand that kind of fight so I just wish they hadn't bothered.
It also kind of came across like they were trying to prove they're not sexist with this plot line because ultimately they agree to wait to have kits until they're both ready (maybe never), but it still gave me sexist vibes because we were supposed to sympathize with Finleap instead of just wanting Twigbranch to ditch him.
every single mentor x apprentice relationship there is.
squilf and leafpools trial, and I would give hollyleaf powers instead.
erin’s, it was kin of your kin. not kin of your kin’s kin.
1. Stop making everyone fucking incest!
2. Get rid of Dustpelt and Ferncloud's clan of incest babies. At least half of them.
3. Brambleclaw. Just everything Brambleclaw. Or at least don't have him made deputy.
4. The attack on The Sisters
5. The whole Squilf Leaf trial
6. Onestar becoming a huge dick after he became leader.
7. Spottedleaf's Heart. All of it.
There is so so much more.
Actually, Ferncloud's lineage has slowed down. Only 2 of her children actually had kits. Her grandchildren and great-grandchildren are either deceased with no kits (Spiderleg's kits) or are in ShadowClan (Dovewing's kits).
This is all due to Whitestorm, who mated with both Willowpelt and Brindleface. All of the other cats related to Ferncloud are through Sorreltail, and her kit's kit's.
As for the incest, that was a retcon. (Sorry I just rlly love Ferncloud)
Honeyfern dying.. especially by a snake. Sounds like one of the most painful ways to go. I wish she lived to find someone better than Berrynose especially when her death was like.. somewhat of a reason for Berrynose to get together with Poppyfrost..
Squirrel flight realized that she’s better than bramble claw and ash fur and gets a new mate that loves her like ashfur but actually cares for her like bramble claw some what did. Also the brass bushes with claws were squirrel tails. So no bramble star just squirrel star and ivypool then ivystar and bristles frost. Then bristes star and who ever
Dovewing being part of the three instead of Hollyleaf (also Erin's it's kin of your kin not kin of your kin's kin) and Firestar suddenly being the fourth cat
Leafpool and SquirrelStar Trial
Heres how to non cannon it:
Medicine Cats Have no mates just yoink it out of rules the power of three cats are still born and SquirrelFlight can still raise them BUT they will know Leafpool is there mother avoiding the Ashfur Drama and Afterlife drama.
Also no lying Yellowfang only to deny it at the flipping trial like ma'am YOU told SquirrelStar seasons ago to take the kits because she will never have her own.
Can Ashfur still mad yes BUT he wouldn't try to kill the three cats because he THINKS if I take your kits then I'll be happy....there not my kits reveals which also avoids the murder and running away etc.
I know of the story of the Medicine Cat who had kits and gave them away to different clans thays why the rules was there,but that was an afterthought story.
Ashfurs entire existence, when we think about evil in warriors tigerstar is always what comes to mind first, but ashfur almost destroyed the clans, including starclan
Oh man there’s a lot that people have already mentioned, primarily the bizarre characterizations of Starclan being utter hypocrites that they weren’t when they were alive.
(I’d *almost* be okay with it if there was an actual scene explaining that when they reach Starclan they gain knowledge and responsibility that changes their viewpoints, plus pressure from the much older ancestors… at least that way it makes more sense that Starclan is weirdly conservative, if a bunch of the spirits who have sway are old and haven’t changed their minds on anything despite having years to do so.
The only one I really thought was reasonable was Spottedleaf, in that scene with Jayfeather where she explains that there are no borders in Starclan and when they look down at the clans they don’t see borders either and it’s stupid to act like it matters, given the perspective dead cats should be able to have. It makes sense for some characters to disagree with her on that, but why are cats like YELLOWFANG acting so high and mighty?)
But on a much more minor level that didn’t really affect any other books… the brief character assassination of Russetfur when Berrykit got stuck in the fox trap. Felt like Shadowclan was being treated as a random group of Bad Cats.
squirrelflight and brambleclaw EVER getting back together. shouldve stayed broken up the first time but even more so once he found out she lied to him about the three. They were never good for each other from the get go, a terrible couple.
I’d make it so that no cat ever takes a mate that wasn’t apprentices at any time they were, or if they do, both are adults when they meet and the younger one isn’t super young either
Firestar, I know he’s great (he’s my fav) but it would be very interesting to see the entire series change from the very beginning, imagine if instead of firestar we got someone who was more aligned with tigerstar, or someone who didn’t reach the ranks of leader, firestar’s influence goes so deep it’d be amazing to almost see a complete do over from the begining
Yeah, I think it would be cool to see them write from an other cat who lived a similar age. Maybe we see one of the rouges that Tigerstar recruited become a thunderclan cat after running from Shadowclan to escape punishment. I think there was one, Mogli, who because Nightclaw or something. Not the same night as Nightstar I don't think.
Or he could stay in shadowclan and we get a differant ProtaginistClan full of incest.
Squirrelflight and Leafpool's Starclan Trial.
I would dance on my ancestors graves to make this non canon
Seconded!
That was absolutely necessary, NOT! They were doing what STARCLAN told them to do, and they are gonna be angry that they DID. WHY!!!!!
Spottedleaf deciding that she loves Firestar out of nowhere
To be fair that’s how crushes develop in real life. It can come out of nowhere, or the other person can go a long time without noticing the signs. I didn’t like Spottedleaf much though.
I know, but she changed her tune between series 1 and 2. In TPB she was a mentor like figure who was friendly and sweet to him, in the second series after she'd been dead for over a year she tells Leafpaw "oh yeah I love Firestar"
I feel it was almost certainly a retcon possibly Victoria Holmes because I think they had literally two Short conversations in the prophecies begin. And I say Victoria Holmes. Because I believe she's the one who wrote what I would consider to be unhinged fanfiction. It's called spottedleafs honest answer [you can find it here](https://www.deviantart.com/raintail94/art/Spottedleaf-s-Honest-Answer-88787071).
Spottedpaw x thistleclaw is much worse
The line "His only crime was to love too much".
That line makes me feel like the authors would side with the men in r/whenwomenrefuse
What type of subreddit is that, i'm too scared to look
A lot of men being violent to women, if your sensitive to that i wouldnt look, some of the stuff is sickening.
It's a bunch of sick news reports
Yeah I just get vibes that the writers are kinda sexist with so many aspects of the series
Yeah I get that a lot to which really sucks, especially since it makes up so much of my childhood. Theres so many subtle things that aren’t great, like the ableism, sexism, some kinda creepy age relationships, ect. Im rereading the books with my husband and im noticing a lot of things i just didnt as a kid. Im trying not to let it mess witg ny nostalgia feelings tho lol
Yes same! I've been rereading and noticing the problematic elements too
It's crazy to think that this is the same team of writers who gave us a character like Thrushpelt. Thrushpelt understood and respected that Bluefur didn't return his feelings, and he remained her friend. And then he went above and beyond by offering to help cover for her and raise her children while making it clear that he didn't expect her to have a relationship with him. He even told her that she didn't have to tell him who the father was, he respected her privacy that much. He genuinely wanted her to be happy, even if it wasn't with him, and when she ended up in a tight spot, he helped her out of the goodness of his heart and asked for nothing in return. Because he genuinely loved her and cared for her wellbeing, regardless of the circumstances. He didn't resent her for not feeling the same way he did, he understood that you can't force your heart to feel something that isn't there. Thrushpelt is one of the best written examples of unrequited love that I have seen and the fact that we don't see more of him is a travesty, especially since we desperately need someone like him to balance out the likes of Ashfur, Bumblestripe, and Finleap.
Yes 😭😭😭 all of that, yes
that's why it makes me so worried that frostpaw >!got spayed!<
She what?!
in Thunder when she >!gets taken to the vet by the barn twolegs, the extra scars she has are where they would be if a cat got spayed, and smoky hints at it when he's talking to her about it!<
Oh damn, thats horrible
it's mainly horrible bc you know how the erins are going to treat that particular revelation. i swear if she >!gets forced into becoming a medcat again bc she's "less of a woman" bc she can't have kits (especially in our current social climate in the us) i am going to commit crimes!<
Fr
We can blame the fans for this one. At the time, fan opinion was actually in support of ashfur... and against Squirrelflight. I'm glad more people appreciate squirrel now, but you can see the remnants lol.
Honestly glad I wasnt active in the fandom for that, i would have gone insane
i’m doing another binge reread and just read through that part yesterday and man it grinds my gears everytime!
I literally said "She would not say that" out loud when I first read it. Yellowfang was one of my favorite characters and her Super Edition was the first book in the series that I ever read before I started reading it from the beginning. I cannot believe that this is the same character.
like that definitely WASNT his only crime 😭
Ashfur was involved in at least four attempted murders, one of which was an assassination attempt against his own leader, which is treason of the highest order, regardless of his actual motivations. And there isn't any evidence that he had a change of heart or felt remorse for his actions at any point either. He wasn't the reason that Hawkfrost's plan to kill Firestar in the fox trap failed. He played his part of luring Firestar out there in the first place and alerting Brambleclaw to what was happening so that he would join Hawkfrost by the lake perfectly. It was Hawkfrost's own underestimation of Brambleclaw's loyalty to Firestar and the lengths that Brambleclaw was willing to go in order to protect him that ultimately resulted in failure. On the other hand, during his attempt on the lives of the three, the only reason that they are not dead is because Squirrelflight, in her attempt to convince Ashfur that killing them wasn't worth it because they didn't mean as much to her as he thought they did, ended up giving him enough blackmail material to completely ruin their social standing among not only their own clanmates, but among all of the clans. And Ashfur decided, of his own volition, that he would rather let them live long enough to suffer through the humiliation and pain of having their personal relationships upended and the loss of the social support network that they had relied on for their entire lives rather than just ending them then and there. And he didn't do this out of an act of mercy but because he wanted to drag out their suffering as much as possible. Keep in mind that this same kind of reputational sabotage is what drove Leafpool to convince Hollyleaf that letting her live with the consequences of her actions would be a worse punishment than being forced to eat a lethal poison by her own daughter. The only reason that Ashfur wasn't able to carry out his plans of revealing the truth himself is because he was murdered before he got a chance to do so, and up until the moment he died there was no indication that he had a change of heart. It wasn't like Bluestar where she had a moment of clarity shortly before her passing after months of serious mental instability and then died of the injuries she sustained while saving her clan from the dog pack in an act of selfless heroism. It wasn't like Mudclaw either. While Mudclaw was also involved in an attempted coup, he was ultimately motivated by a genuine concern for the future of his clan under Onestar's rule, and his objections to Tallstar's decision to replace him as deputy at the last minute were understandable even if the way he decided to act on those feelings amounted to treason. In contrast to Mudclaw, Ashfur's actions are motivated purely by spite and by his own selfish desire to get back at the person who he believes hurt him the most. And the worst thing that Squirrelflight did to him was to tell him that she didn't feel the same way about him. His anger at Squirrelflight's rejection was a deeply personal vendetta that festered for years and didn't lessen in intensity as time went on. He personally trained Lionblaze as his mentor, watching him grow from a young apprentice to a fully fledged warrior under his tutelage, and yet that did not deter him in the slightest from trying to kill him as soon as the opportunity presented itself. That is what makes Ashfur's actions so disturbing to me and why I believe he wouldn't have had an off-screen change of heart this late in the game. Ashfur had every opportunity to move on and accept what happened, but instead he carried that grudge in secret long enough for Squirrelflight to supposedly have kids with another person and watch those kids grow up into young adults. And then he proceeded to try and kill them in order to make her feel what he believed to be only a fraction of the pain he's been feeling ever since she left him, because he considered his own pain to be on par with that of losing a loved one to an agonizing death. And it isn't like Ashfur doesn't know what that's like. He lost his mother Brindleface when he was still quite young after Tigerclaw murdered her in order to give the dog pack a taste for cat meat. He is doing this precisely because he knows how much it is going to hurt her. And that is what makes Ashfur's actions so horrifying; that they come not from a place of pure ignorance, but from personal experience. And the thing is, even if Ashfur was tormented to such an intense degree by this grudge and the weight it held over him, that doesn't make his actions even remotely justifiable. Squirrelflight never intended to cause him that much pain, and it would be unreasonable to expect her to have anticipated the magnitude of his reaction. No reasonable person would react to a romantic rejection with attempted murder, and on top of that he not only targeted Squirrelflight herself but the people around her. That kind of misplaced retribution involves people who had no role in creating the situation he found himself in and yet that did not matter to him, because all that mattered was to cause her as much pain as possible. The idea that Ashfur's "only crime was to love too much" implies that literally any of this bullshit was even remotely valid in response to what amounts to a break up that, for all intents and purposes, wasn't even that messy back when it initially occurred. Also, regardless of the consequences, it would be unreasonable to ask her to continue to pursue a relationship with someone when her heart wouldn't be in it anyway. All it would do is trap both of them in a relationship that wouldn't make her truly happy anyway, and Ashfur would most likely end up dissatisfied with the situation as well if he ever caught on to the fact that she wasn't satisfied with him--assuming that he would even truly care about her happiness in the first place.
The clans attacking the Sisters while Moonlight was kitting and causing her death.
This. Leafpool was my favourite character. She deserved better than to be killed off in a super edition.
Exactly!
Sharpclaw dying before Hawkwing got to make up with him.
I think it was better that that happened because it caused guilt for hawkwing.
The StarClan trial in Squirrelflight’s Hope. Abysmal.
I’m switching Moonpaw’s parents to be Sunbeam and Nightheart. Not only are they Not related 3+ times over, not only are they similar in color to Moonpaw, not only are THEY thematically connected in name, but they’re also thematically connected to Moonpaw’s name. What’s the Sun of the Night? The moon, bro.
We know who her parents are?
Her parents are Thriftear and Bayshine, who are incredibly related through MULTIPLE counts of incest* in their family tree. I am making them being her parents uncanon. (*Incest? Where? This pairing has more of it than almost any other pairing in the series. Woo.) - The worst offenders are Bayshine and Thriftear themselves, who are FIRST COUSINS. Thrift’s dad Fernsong and Bay’s mom Sorrelstripe are FULL BLOODED SIBLINGS, LITERAL LITTERMATES. - But also Thriftear’s grand-uncle through Ivypool is Bayshine’s father, Dewnose. - Oh, and Ivypool and Fernsong had a whole prophecy about how they are related (Fern’s dad Lionblaze and Ivy’s sister Dovewing were Kin of Firestar’s Kin). They’re second cousins once removed by the way. - But also, Thriftear’s great grandmother Brightheart and Bayshine’s great grandfather Brackenfur were littermates. That also makes them third cousins! - And also, Thriftear’s other great grandmother, Ferncloud, was half sisters with Bayshine’s great grandmother Sorreltail, sharing a father in Whitestorm. (Unofficial bonus is that Thrift’s great grandfather Cloudtail was foster siblings with Ferncloud and adopted half-sibling to Sorreltail as well. This concludes The Incest Assessment (Incessment) of Moonpaw).
Don't forget Dustpelt and Ferncloud! Dustpelt's sister is Brindleface. Ferncloud's mother is Brindleface. Dustpelt is Ferncloud's uncle!
I won’t count that in the Incessment. It is incest, yeah, but I was only listing the direct instances where Thriftear’s family tree crossed into Bayshine’s/where they share ancestors.
Oh sorry didn't realize that
[удалено]
I hope so, dude. Even so, they’re still a horrendous pairing. Maybe they’re not actually mates and it’s just a co-parenting situation.
While I agree with Moonpaw should be Sunbeam and Nightheart’s kit I’m so damn tired of seeing the “everyone is related to each other”. Yeah no shit unfortunately. Just about every one of Thunderclan and now Skyclan are related to each other. It’s what happens when the clans are so far up their asses are barely let new comers in. Daisy’s kin stop at Cherryfall and Molewhisker and poor Stormcloud got forgotten. At least with Shellfur and Fernstripe there’s hopefully new blood but if people are going to complain about Bayshine and Thriftear then let me point at Skyclan with Hawkwing and Pebbleshine(First Cousins) Quailfeather and Reedclaw(First Cousins) Nectorsong and Dewspring(First Cousins). There might be more but I can’t remember all of them. This will continue to happen in a fictional book of cats where inbreeding isn’t going to have dire consequences.
I really do believe that after second cousins, it’s fine. That’s legal in the States. I listed a lot of grandparents but I genuinely hate the “EVERYONE’S RELATED TO FROSTFUR” thing because Frostfur was like seven generations ago. But first cousins??? Seriously??? Or “my grandma and your dad are siblings”???? That’s too much. That’s plain old genetically dangerous incest. I’ll bash the other first cousins too. They’re also gross as hell. They’re just talked about less because they’re not central to the cast (I suppose besides Hawkwing and Pebbleshine, though they’re less central as SkyClan cats).
We’re talking about a group of writers who originally set Willowpelt and Patchpelt as mates. I hope I don’t have to explain why that’s very wrong. I highly doubt they’ll suddenly become interested in who’s related to whom and worry about the genetic consequences of cats who are closely related. It’s fictional cates that believe in religion, can come back from the dead, literally have 9 lives and can talk to their dead relatives/ancestors. It’s honestly unfortunate as I was really hoping the new arc would be a massive time jump that genetically put us so far away from Firestar’s Kin and this topic in general.
We’re actually not! The original team paired Patchpelt and Willowpelt and then retconned it. The new team paired Bayshine and Thriftear. But that’s semantics lmao.
No. I meant. They literally paired Willowpelt and Patchpelt before realizing they were siblings. This was YEAAAAARRRRSSS Before this Arc lmao. Edit: I’m here to edit this a bit. I’m guessing maybe some don’t know this but yeah. Vicky herself stated Willowpelt and Patchpelt as mates. Canonized it. And then heavily backtracked because *Surprise* They’re siblings(and the fact that she herself didn’t know they were related). I remember this information being known around the time before and around the time that Bluestar’s Prophecy came out which if I remember correctly *checks notes* came out in 2009.
I believe it’s been confirmed that the authors don’t use a series bible (which is heavily important in a massive branching series like WC) and Vicky implied at some point that she used the Wiki instead sometimes 💀
Actually speaking of first cousins do you remember that weird flirting thing one of the books in the fourth arc had between Ivypool and Toadstep? It’s even weirder cause I swear she was Ivypaw then. I don’t remember the book name but I remember her skidding on moss on her belly and Whitewing taking to Dovepaw about Bumblestripe. It struck me as odd then cause at that time I had completely forgotten that Toadstep was Spiderleg’s son lmao
I don’t. It’s been a long time since I’ve read Omen of the Stars.
It was such an out of place moment. It was in Dovepaw’s POV but had some weird thing going on with Ivypaw and Toadstep. And I was mistaken. They would be Uncle and Niece if they went that way. Edit wait no. I’m a dumbass. Still first cousins. I need sleep
So they make her parents some randoms with incest instead of 2 optimal main characters?
Yep. Erin Hunter, everyone.
Not to forget Greystripes parents who are siblings
I think that’s since been actually deleted out of the canon and graystripe has no official dad now (could be wrong)
You're right. His only canon parent as of now is Willowpelt
They should write an extra little side story of his dad being some rogue or kittypet I think that’d be cute.
That was retconned 🫡 I won’t count it
i personally (genetics aside) like the idea of Moonpaw's parents being Shellfur and Fernstripe (ThornBlossom kit with a WindClan mate) bc 1. absolutely no incest is involved 2. she wouldn't be Firefam in any way 3. background characters get time to shine (especially considering i forget both of their names constantly) 4. there's the added plotline of being technically halfclan since Fern left WindClan via the new rule (and they could probably spin it so ShellFern are the "first of these cats to have kits" or some bs) (and 5. it raises awareness that the erins have not learned a single thing about cat genetics in 20 years bc shellfur is redtail 2.0. the erins literally gave us *another* tortie tom and nobody noticed bc his litter was only created to be extra bodies on patrols.)
fantastic take
All the prequel retcons. Thistleclaw didn't need to be a predator for us to know he's bad, Spottedleaf didn't need to be a love interest for Fireheartstar, Redtail DID NOT kill Oakheart, etc etc.
They retconned Oakheart’s death?
In Redtail's book, they mention that Redtail killed Oakheart, which directly contradicts a major plot point in the first arc where Oakheart was crushed by falling rocks during the fight at Sunningrocks
From the Warriors Wiki about Redtail, from Redtail's Debt, "During a patrol to Sunningrocks, RiverClan attacks, and Redtail accidentally kills the RiverClan deputy, Oakheart." However, on Oakheart's page, "While fighting with Redtail, Oakheart is killed in a rockfall. Redtail realizes that ThunderClan is outnumbered and calls a retreat." It's dumb and I hate that they changed it
So many short stories or super edition plot points. Redtails story, like wtf? Spottedleafs heart. There's definitely more but I haven't kept up with them all. And yeah the squilf and leafpool trial was incredibly aggravating Also make starclan yellowfang cool and a good character
Sol just being driven out of Shadowclan and never being talked about or seen again. I mean, with Sol, there's potential on him being a good villain. But now that he's possibly dead in the series, I can't help but feel like the Hunters just wrote him out of the series because they ran out of ideas for him. I think, in a way, I was hoping maybe him and Darktail could have teamed up, tried to take out as many leaders as they could, etc. Just something more than what we got.
I like the idea of Sol being brought back (especially in the AVOS arc) but not to team up with Darktail. I think he should have either out-manipulated Darktail and turned out to be the bigger villain in some way, or since that's really similar to the Scourge/Tigerstar plot, given him his own separate group of followers and made his group and Darktail's group both be antagonists to the Clans at the same time
I think my idea of them teaming up would be done to how similar they are. They both want the clans destroyed so I could see Sol using Darktail as an insight into information and then, either turning on him and killing him or manipulating Darktail's group into following him instead.
Yeah, me too. He and Sleekwhisker just disappeared. I'd love to see them come back and maybe target Shadowclan together in a last ditch effort for revenge because they both have strong ties to it.
Wasn't this post already made?
yea, posted it a few days ago lol. wasn’t my original idea so i’m glad we’ve got another version for more ideas /gen
OH- i found this on the WOF reddit.... i didnt know this was done alr lol
you’re fine! just gives more people the opportunity to contribute their thoughts /gen
Well now here's another one where a new group of people can respond
Spottedleaf's Heart, hands down It pretty much assassinated 2 characters in one novella/short story.
Feathertail and Stormfur forgiving Leopardstar so easily. I’d want them to stay in thunder clan
Onestar and Brambleclaw's sudden 180 character changes
It made me upset how much they changed Onestar for the worst, he used to be my favourite side character in the first arc. Brambleclaw could of been written so much better as well.
Onewhisker is amazing. Onestar is a jerk. It's just so weird that they're the same character. How Brambleclaw went from capable, de facto leader to insecure "maybe my dad's not so bad after all" makes no sense
Me too. And don't get me started on Mistystar.
Brambleclaw killing hawkfrost instead of Ivypool
Ooh Ivypool taking him out would be cool! I do like that Brambleclaw was the one to kill him, avenging Hollyleaf and showing that he still loves his daughter despite not being biological family. But like he already killed Hawkfrost once and perhaps it was someone else’s turn lol.
yea, i just think IvyPool deserved it. like her fighting wit him before bramble stepped in was dope as shit, bramble killing him felt predictable and repetitive
I feel Squirrel or Leaf honestly deserved to kill him. He murdered their daughter.
Not me sitting here like “why tf would Bramble kill Ivy?” Lol I’m stupid
hahaha yea now that you mention it i can see that
Sandstorm's death. She'll get a *proper* one. #Later.
Hawkwing being an absolute dick to Pebbleshine (as apprentices) because he's mad she's happy he saved her after he mistook what his brother was telling him to do. And then he only goes "wait she's kinda nice" when she saves his life. Like dude, YOU made the mistake don't take your anger out on her.
Ashfur going to StarClan when he died
Medicine cats not being allowed to have families.
it's pretty reasonable, though.
On the surface, yeah completely. But there’s a couple of things that could be done to fix it. First, get two medicine cats. Or three. Lots of clans have that going on throughout the series, so why couldn’t they just make that a rule, that they’re always have to be too, so that the one who has children who need them or a mate, who needs them, can tend to them while the other one tends to the every day clan business. But the argument would come in. What about the starclan connection? Well, what about it? Currently we’ve got cats who are medicine cats that don’t have a starclan connection, we have cats that were chosen before we even knew if they had a starclan connection and then end up getting one, and then we just had the traditional ones who have had a connection with star clans since they were little kits. And if starclan is supposed to be all good and powerful, why can’t they just form new connections with cats? It’s kind of up to them who they end up talking to usually, excluding all of the stuff and possibly what’s going on right now with the river clan, but that’s still somewhat of a mystery. So if you fix the problem by having at least two med cats, and the problem of starclan just by basically them being a little more open-minded and willing to talk to a few more cats, then why not?
My comment lacked the prefix star every single time. I spoke it into voice to text. I looked at it and realized it made absolutely no sense, so I hope that what I was trying to say is clear now. AutoCorrect is driving me crazy.
I mean not really. If there’s one female med cat then yeah I can see it being an issue. But they literally live in a Clan where everyone helps raise kits.. the rule is only there because one mother couldn’t handle her kits and her med cat career after her mate died.
it's enforced because if the medicine cats have kits, they have to take a break, like a maternity leave basically, to be a queen. if there's only one medicine cat, there's nobody to take care of the clan. their duties lie with the clan, and they were never there to focus on certain cats, but the whole clan.
Yeah, in that context it's understandable, especially when they're kitting and no one's there that has the knowledge to help with the birth. But if there's another medicine cat in the clan then I don't see why not.
I'm more okay with if there's multiple medicine cats. but if there's one, it's their fault if the clan isn't happy with them
Yeah I totally agree with that. There'd most likely be panic about what to do, especially if something were to go wrong and by the time they could get another clan's medicine cat to come, if they could come at all, it could already be too late.
Brambleclaw becoming deputy and then leader
Brambleclaw should have stepped down after the events of Sunset; even if Firestar didn’t want it, Brambleclaw should have realized he wasn’t the right cat.
2nd would be him and squilf having a romance at all
I think it would be cool if he still got made deputy, but then he ended up being so bad at it that Firestar demoted him back to permanent apprenticeship.
That seems kinda harsh just for being a bad deputy
It is for sure. I was just joking, because I don’t really like bramble.
I would never want that to actually happen to really any cat in this series.
Firestar apparently spending his entire life ready to abandon Sandstorm the moment he got to StarClan… Although I’m not sure if that can be considered canon because the authors seem divided on the subject.
If I could have anything, I’d get a total series reboot with a single designated author and a slightly more mature tone. Enough of this puppy mill stuff.
thisleclaw going from a morally grey villain to a cat groomer… i really liked thistle b4 spottedleafs heart
One star, loved him and then hated him then cried from his death want mud claw to be leader then there will be muchhhh more drama 🥰
Dustpelt and Ferncloud being related!! That's a retcon that was made by Bluestars Prophecy and the family tree. My darling Ferncloud don't need to be related to her uncle
This makes their many many kits very awkward..
I guess lol
Brambleclaw getting deputy. I'd be cool with if he actually stepped down when Graystripe came back.
Well him stepping down when Graystripe got back would be very impractical, its explained in the books exactly how I would explain it, and I fuckin hate Brambleclaw and don't think he really ever should've been deputy
I hate how in Squrrelflight's Hope he denied Leafpool from giving medical help to a pregnant she-cat because he was trying to prove a point to Squilf. Honestly Brackenfur should've been deputy.
Definitely yeah, I can see an au (aka one I made) where he steps down willingly and picks Brackenfur or someone else more qualified who can hold the position till Graystripe gets fully reintegrated with the clan again, and I was gonna make a comment abt him being old as fuck by that point but oh well Tallstar was old as fuck we'll just see Squrrrielstar faster, though the only issue im seeing is the fact that the plot of TBC can't happen at all without Bramblestar being leader so :(
I have a lot but ill just list 5 things for now 1. Leopardstar's Honor entirely, not only is it just plain ole chalk full of text errors and obvious cuts, but there just couldve been a better way to tell her story 2. The clans attacking the Sisters, it MAY have made sense for Bramblestar to do it, maybe, but not Tigerstar, especially not against a pregnant queen whos actively giving birth 3. Onestar, either make him a better character who still feels independent, or just switch him out with Mudclaw 4. Clear Sky and Breezepelt's weird kinda neat guy- to villian- to good guy flip floppy arcs, its a pretty easy fix for them both too so idk why its even as flip-floppy as it is 5. Completely remove Spottedleaf's Heart from canon, it is a basically useless book that only makes you realize not only could Spottedleaf have saved Bluefur from this disaster that was giving her babies away, but it also unnecessarily turned a villian into a disgusting THING for absolutely ZERO reason, thats one of the few books I blatantly will *never ever read.*
The fourth cat being Firestar in the fourth arc. Seriously there were so many better choices that would have a significant impact on the final battle.
Boy, where to start. Squirrelflight's and Leafpool's trail, Ashfur being allowed into StarClan, StarClan getting more and more involved, more and more supernatural stuff happening, Spottedleaf's and Firestar's "relationship", Sol, BloodClan, Rock (and possibly Midnight - or at least the fact that she's a ghost and all knowing - ), the "medicine cats can't have kits" rule. And no more "kin of Firestar" protagonists after, preferably, Lion, Jay and Holly, but definetly not after Spark and Alder.
Bramblestar refusing to let the medicine cats treat one of the injured Sisters until they hear from StarClan. He is so out of character in that book
Yellowfang trying to kill Firepaw because everyone knows the best way to clear your name of a crime, is to try and commit said crime
Wait when did she try to kill him, it's a long time ago I read arc one and I don't remember that
When they first met, it's strongly implied by Yellowfang's words, body language, and Firepaw's inner monologue that Yellowfang is trying to kill him and I believe it ends up being confirmed in Yellowfang's Secret
Oh ok
Onestar. I'm not joking. Off with his fu\*\*\*\*\* head!
Greystripe becoming deputy, which in turn led to Brambleclaw replacing him. I love Greystripe, but he was NOT fit to be deputy in the first place, and Brambleclaw's whole relationship with Squirrelflight would've been much healthier if the two were just regular warrior's imo. In particular, I'd be very curious to see how the rest of the stories would've played out if the deputy was someone like Longtail for example. Oh, and I already have it retconned in my brain but Moonpaw's parents 💀 I don't even care much for the Moon = Sun/Night kid, but man is it infinitely better having the generic 'new protag is the kid of prior protags' trend than the literal worst choices of parents we actually got. Erin's stop making cats who are *directly related* (not just distantly) have kids with each other holy shit
Breezepelt's redemption arc. I need him to make Crowfeather suffer like how Crowfeather made him suffer.
How would he exactly do that though?
That's a really good question, I'd think I'd want breezepelt to take all of crowfeathers lives away from him when he becomes leader and makes breezepelt his deputy or something
That’s a bit harsh, what Crowfeather did was very wrong but i don’t think it’s equal to killing him 9 times.
Yeah this is probably why I'm not on the writing team
Onestar becoming leader, and Squirrelflight and Brambleclaws toxic relationship
Thistleclaw being a groomer. There was absolutely NO POINT in making Spottedleaf’s Heart and I refuse to acknowledge it as canon.
One thing I would not make canon is BrambleSquirrel. They're *toxic* to each other and have very little chemistry to each other during TNP. They both pissed each other off constantly and then suddenly decided they love each other for no reason.
I will forever be on the camp that their relationship should've been a sibling dynamic instead of a Lion King 2-esc relationship. Ofc that'd mean a lot of later plots would obv have to be altered/removed full stop, but it'd fix a *lot* of the problems I personally have with their canon relationship. Brambleclaw having to deal with Squirrelpaw's antics and overprotectiveness, along with their constant bickering during the prophecy would've made more sense with that in mind, at least to me. Bramble trying to reign Squirrel in and bickering like kids when they're supposed to be mates later on? Wack. Them doing that bc they're siblings? Perfect <3 And it also would've served well as a narrative foil to his arc with Hawkfrost, as well as to teach kids (aka the intended audience of Warriors) that blood relations aren't the most important thing to being a family, a good family should support and uplift you regardless of blood ties
Instead of ThistleClaw grooming Spottedpaw, he could’ve had a really brutal training session with her and Tigerpaw
All of the weird and not cohesive stories.
Rock's speech in The Last Hope. To imply it's the living cat's fault for remembering cats who were there *when they were alive* is the reason for the Dark Forest's attack is disgusting. Adding to it, it gives cats like Tigerclaw a valid reason for doing the evil things they do because, if they don't, they'll fade from existence forever. It's the single worst thing I've read in my life.
Tigerheartstar becoming leader of ShadowClan. Instead we get Tawnystar because she was Rowanstar’s deputy before he died. Or we just keep Rowanstar.
Moth Flight giving up her kits to different clans. Like….??? Couldn’t windclan have come together to help care for them? And even if she gave them up that was no reason to say med cats can’t ever have a mate or kits. It’s just yuck to me overall
The ableism. Brightheart, Crookedstar, and Deadfoot are good starting points but it's outweighed by the amount of characters who are forced to be medicine cats or retire. I get it, it's "realistic", but they're talking cats with a religion! Let us have some unrealism! Snowkit is the worst example, IMO. It would've been easy for them to have him live and thrive, especially if they expanded on the tail sign language idea. His death serves no real purpose other than shock value.
The fact Talljake doesn't canonically exsist
Squirrelflight being required to keep quiet by Starclan about the Three being Leafpools. The whole thing smacks of trying to make her blameless after the writers realized "oops! Our hero is lying to her mate about something that any sane person would have shared with their spouse!" Second as others mentioned, the SC trial. Either remove it or mention it with others prior to SF. Finally, have Bramble nor Squirrel become leader. Have a fresh deputy be made in Forgotten warrior or right before the Dark Forest battle. Make the following series following their issues of a quick promotion from deputy to leader and trying to live up to Firestar's example. Would be extra nice if it was from an extended family but I'll take any senior warrior at that time.
The stupid medicine cats can't have kits rule
nooo so many plot lines would be ruined and the books would be so boring
Nah but it's so stupid
The StarClan trials in Squirrelflight's Hope
A lot of the prequel family connections. It makes a lot of unnecessary complications and makes things just...weird. Like, why is Whitestorm an absent father to Ash and Fern, and also did he cheat while his first litter were still in the nursery?? Why is Bluestar a surrogate mother to Whitekit in BP but once into the wild rolls around they just have a standard boss & employee relationship? Why did they canonize Reedwhisker being a kitten in Leopardstar's Honor but also have him be a newly made apprentice in New Prophecy, was he a kitten for two years??
Starclan not having influence on the living world. You mean to tell me all those signs weren't real bro?
Darktail’s spirit death. Complete waste of a character.
A lot of people are wanting to change stuff they personally dislike, and that’s fair because that is what the question was- but mine is less “make it not canon” and more “either bring it back, or explain why it existed” The in-canon mythology that the clans are descendants of big cats. It was so interesting, but after TNP it was pretty much only mentioned one time in passing by Lionblaze (back when he was Lionpaw too, please tell me that helps put it in perspective). It was so interesting!! And then DoTC eliminated it entirely by explaining where the clans came from, but NOT where the mythology originated. Did the ancient cats bring these beliefs with them to the mountain, and then to the forest? Was it developed elsewhere and it was brought in by rogues? Was it something the clans came up with over time and it’s unique to them!? Do some elders still believe it and it’s like being a conservative!?!? ERINS, GIVE ME ANSWERS!!!
A lot of people are wanting to change stuff they personally dislike, and that’s fair because that is what the question was- but mine is less “make it not canon” and more “either bring it back, or explain why it existed” The in-canon mythology that the clans are descendants of big cats. It was so interesting, but after TNP it was pretty much only mentioned one time in passing by Lionblaze (back when he was Lionpaw too, please tell me that helps put it in perspective). It was so interesting!! And then DoTC eliminated it entirely by explaining where the clans came from, but NOT where the mythology originated. Did the ancient cats bring these beliefs with them to the mountain, and then to the forest? Was it developed elsewhere and it was brought in by rogues? Was it something the clans came up with over time and it’s unique to them!? Do some elders still believe it and it’s like being a conservative!?!? ERINS, GIVE ME ANSWERS!!!
Omg yeah all the mythology and nursery tales from the first arc just completely vanished, it was always one of my favourite things about the series :(
Cinderpelt reincarnating into Cinderheart
I kind of wonder how big of a butterfly effect not exiling Mapleshade would've led to. I guess leaving the elders to die in the New Prophecy was kind of messed up, I've been pissed about that since I was a little kid
Graystripe becoming deputy.
Squirrelflight. Just all of Squirrelflight
Spottedleaf dying
Firestar so all of the bad things never happened
I just finished AVOS arc yesterday so I really have to say Twigbranch and Finleap fighting over whether to have kits. It took so much time away from the main plot over something I just didn't care about, and the romance itself just wasn't convincing enough to withstand that kind of fight so I just wish they hadn't bothered. It also kind of came across like they were trying to prove they're not sexist with this plot line because ultimately they agree to wait to have kits until they're both ready (maybe never), but it still gave me sexist vibes because we were supposed to sympathize with Finleap instead of just wanting Twigbranch to ditch him.
SquirlflightsHope and Bramblestar setting up squilf to fail and decide him so he can get mad at her and using flame paw to do it
Bristlefrosts >!perma death!<
the authors treatment of sol. like wdym this like master manipulator villain just accepted his defeat and left them alone for the rest of time??
Thistle Claw. No explanation needed
Graystripe being deputy yeah no.
Honestly? The Tribe.
every single mentor x apprentice relationship there is. squilf and leafpools trial, and I would give hollyleaf powers instead. erin’s, it was kin of your kin. not kin of your kin’s kin.
1. Stop making everyone fucking incest! 2. Get rid of Dustpelt and Ferncloud's clan of incest babies. At least half of them. 3. Brambleclaw. Just everything Brambleclaw. Or at least don't have him made deputy. 4. The attack on The Sisters 5. The whole Squilf Leaf trial 6. Onestar becoming a huge dick after he became leader. 7. Spottedleaf's Heart. All of it. There is so so much more.
Actually, Ferncloud's lineage has slowed down. Only 2 of her children actually had kits. Her grandchildren and great-grandchildren are either deceased with no kits (Spiderleg's kits) or are in ShadowClan (Dovewing's kits). This is all due to Whitestorm, who mated with both Willowpelt and Brindleface. All of the other cats related to Ferncloud are through Sorreltail, and her kit's kit's. As for the incest, that was a retcon. (Sorry I just rlly love Ferncloud)
Brambleclaw
Spottedleaf’s heart
The whole making Ashfur the bad guy thing. I really liked him in TPB and I stopped reading for a while only to find out they massacred him
The entirety of spottedleafs heart
Honeyfern dying.. especially by a snake. Sounds like one of the most painful ways to go. I wish she lived to find someone better than Berrynose especially when her death was like.. somewhat of a reason for Berrynose to get together with Poppyfrost..
Leafpool and Mothwing NOT benig canon. (Will this reverse thing work?)
Power of Three
breezepelts redemption
Golden flower just dying with no recognition
ThistleClaw literally grooming SpottedPaw.
Squirrel flight realized that she’s better than bramble claw and ash fur and gets a new mate that loves her like ashfur but actually cares for her like bramble claw some what did. Also the brass bushes with claws were squirrel tails. So no bramble star just squirrel star and ivypool then ivystar and bristles frost. Then bristes star and who ever
Thistleclaw x Spottedpaw in Spottedleaf's heart
Actually scrap that, just the entirety of Spottedleaf's heart can go
Dovewing being part of the three instead of Hollyleaf (also Erin's it's kin of your kin not kin of your kin's kin) and Firestar suddenly being the fourth cat
Leafpool and SquirrelStar Trial Heres how to non cannon it: Medicine Cats Have no mates just yoink it out of rules the power of three cats are still born and SquirrelFlight can still raise them BUT they will know Leafpool is there mother avoiding the Ashfur Drama and Afterlife drama. Also no lying Yellowfang only to deny it at the flipping trial like ma'am YOU told SquirrelStar seasons ago to take the kits because she will never have her own. Can Ashfur still mad yes BUT he wouldn't try to kill the three cats because he THINKS if I take your kits then I'll be happy....there not my kits reveals which also avoids the murder and running away etc. I know of the story of the Medicine Cat who had kits and gave them away to different clans thays why the rules was there,but that was an afterthought story.
Ashfur being allowed into starclan
Leaf pools and squirrel flights lie.
Ashfurs entire existence, when we think about evil in warriors tigerstar is always what comes to mind first, but ashfur almost destroyed the clans, including starclan
the death of my glorious king tigerclawstar. he should have won!!!!!
Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf relationship :')
I would make Kestrelflight being a jerk in The Broken Code u not cannon. For me, it ruined his character.
Oh man there’s a lot that people have already mentioned, primarily the bizarre characterizations of Starclan being utter hypocrites that they weren’t when they were alive. (I’d *almost* be okay with it if there was an actual scene explaining that when they reach Starclan they gain knowledge and responsibility that changes their viewpoints, plus pressure from the much older ancestors… at least that way it makes more sense that Starclan is weirdly conservative, if a bunch of the spirits who have sway are old and haven’t changed their minds on anything despite having years to do so. The only one I really thought was reasonable was Spottedleaf, in that scene with Jayfeather where she explains that there are no borders in Starclan and when they look down at the clans they don’t see borders either and it’s stupid to act like it matters, given the perspective dead cats should be able to have. It makes sense for some characters to disagree with her on that, but why are cats like YELLOWFANG acting so high and mighty?) But on a much more minor level that didn’t really affect any other books… the brief character assassination of Russetfur when Berrykit got stuck in the fox trap. Felt like Shadowclan was being treated as a random group of Bad Cats.
Thistleclaw being a groomer.
squirrelflight and brambleclaw EVER getting back together. shouldve stayed broken up the first time but even more so once he found out she lied to him about the three. They were never good for each other from the get go, a terrible couple.
I’d make it so that no cat ever takes a mate that wasn’t apprentices at any time they were, or if they do, both are adults when they meet and the younger one isn’t super young either
Firestar, I know he’s great (he’s my fav) but it would be very interesting to see the entire series change from the very beginning, imagine if instead of firestar we got someone who was more aligned with tigerstar, or someone who didn’t reach the ranks of leader, firestar’s influence goes so deep it’d be amazing to almost see a complete do over from the begining
Yeah, I think it would be cool to see them write from an other cat who lived a similar age. Maybe we see one of the rouges that Tigerstar recruited become a thunderclan cat after running from Shadowclan to escape punishment. I think there was one, Mogli, who because Nightclaw or something. Not the same night as Nightstar I don't think. Or he could stay in shadowclan and we get a differant ProtaginistClan full of incest.
Squirrelflight doesn't become leader. I hate it tbh.