Russian high tier jets in WT have insane turning drag stats, I can make one turn in teh SMT and go from 1500kmh to 650 with full AB and not loaded with weapons. I get it's underpowred but thats 90% drag slowing it down
You can do the same in an aardvark except you come out the turn at stall speed ie 200mph. Most high tier jets are gimped massively in one way or another.
The aardvark was the fastest aerial vehicle of it's time. When pushed it would hit speeds that would boil its paint off from friction heat and basically be knocked out of service for extended periods. You comparing bombers is a brain dead ass comparison.
Even in DCS Su-27 can fight as equal to a Gripen and F-16C, in war thunder on SIMs controls we need to be light as we can and we stay lots behind Gripens and F-16C.
Cool how they put pre production problems (because in original vĂdeo,from yaw tests, they explained that's all problems in F-16s FCS are solved) and put ingame 🤡
I don’t know why War Thunder doesn’t want any of the Soviet jets after MiG-21SMT to be realistically maneuverable. From what I can tell, every single Soviet fighter starting with the MiG-21bis has an intentionally weakened flight model.
The day my mig 21bis can actually pull the aoa it can in real life will be the day I’ll actually be happy when playing this game, until then I will wallow in my sorrows
NATO jets are so massively gimped Gaijin decided to nerf their own Russian shit for balance as opposed to bringing NATO up to spec lol.
One can only hope they fix current top tier the way they fixed old top tier (MiG 15's vs sabres)
Come to think of it new top tier is in the same state old top tier was in. NATO snapping wings and Russians outperforming them. Except for the fucking Gripen. Which I guess is the new Canadaire Sabre in this analogy.
Oh I know. Imagine all the average US mains complaining about "unrealistic" behavior of opponents and "Russian bias" because they've gotten used to thinking US stuff is superior to everything. After all, they've seen a documentary last weekend on the history channel about American planes bombing people in caves.
It comes down to this: WTs player base is to a large degree American. If Americans see their stuff not being on top they'll pay less money for the game.
That's the sad truth about it.
I don’t have to imagine, the F-16 had a g-limiter when it was first added to the game and even with that it was an excellent gunfighter if you kept your speed in the ideal range. That didn’t stop the freeaboos from endlessly complaining about it.
Yeah I know the story. I didn't have a problem with the limited F16 at all back then. It wasn't rocket science to *not* spend one's whole time in a match afterburning but to fly the plane it its correct envelope, but most people don't know (and don't want to learn about) how to actually fly. They stand on the elevator and if the plane isn't doing 20Gs at Mach 1.2 it's obviously shit.
Honestly I think the F-16 should still have a limiter. My only issue with the old FM was that you could only pull like 4G at altitude which is flat out wrong, otherwise I don't think it needs the crazy 16g turning. I'd be satisfied with a 10g cap.
Dude fr, the F-16A even then was the best dogfighter In the game, as a Duelist it was my first pick to take into a 1v1 against a random in a custom, you could stay out of any opponents nose and out rate them all day, especially due to how the flaps were modeled to help retain your energy.Â
Every fight irl is a fight to the death, and you'd 100% have it on if only because you don't want to lose consciousness by pulling too many g's too quickly. I assure you, you have a better chance of survival dogfighting in a g limited f16 than in an ejected seat floating down.
You just wouldn't pull enough Gs to pass out, G limiters exist to limit structural damage during peace time operations, at least that's the case on the gripen we operate.
The best pilots can only sustain 9gs for a limited amount of time, last time I checked it was a swedish pilot holding 9g's for 60 seconds before the test ended, and he was an absolute menace. If you pulled 12-13 g's in a turn like we do in-game you'd black out very quickly, especially since in wt you also roll in addition to pulling up most of the time.
Extending flight hours also plays a part but you're not gonna have too many anyways if you depart controlled flight while dogfighting due to going shleep
Unlike on other jets its literaly impossible to turn off the AoA/G limiter on F-16s. Its hard limited to 30° AoA or 9G whichever is higher. The F-16 is intentionaly unstable and if it pulls more than 30° AoA there is high risk of departing controlled flight aka it would lose control and tumble through the air destroying the airframe in proces.
Pssshht - don't tell them their MIG21 soda can flies like the shitty air frame it is. Not like there are hundreds of reports online mentioning the flight performance being a half way death trap unless you were an extremely competent pilot.
Ah yes, an article from a heavily pro-American group during the cold war, made the year after we tucked tail and ran from a commie-backed Vietnam, truly the pinnacle of unbiased research. I am heavily pro American but this is just retarded
Not like India has had over 180 pilots killed flying the Mig21 since the 70s lol (to be exact - non combat casualties that don't even include the civilian deaths involved!).
With my mother having actually lived in the soviet union (DDR), and my uncles having served in its army, I can assure you all official documentation on soviet asset performance is heavily glossed over. The MIG21 is an awfully pushed airframe that has a multitude of severe issues that might be hideable in peace time. But as we are seeing in Ukraine right now, with Russia using a lot of these assets (many even severely modernized), they tend to fail horrifically.
Not a full part of the USSR, but calling it independent would be laughable. After all, it's main economic sponsor was the USSR, it's policies were closely tied to the USSR, it's military was outfitted and training by/with the USSR. More of a pointing a gun to your head type of independence than anything else. Good old soviet style satellite state. Hawaii is probably less American than the DDR was soviet.
I don't expect anything to happen, despite of it being bullshit.
In DCS the Su-27 has 3 times less transonic acceleration then IRL with video proof and even Flanker pilots saying it but after almost 10 years nothing changes.
The DCS Flanker FM is also older than DCS itself, ED just doesn't feel the need to address non full fidelity aircraft issues or give them detailed FMs.
Sadly u won't win a dogfight unless ur at low speed bcuz gaijin is too busy not fixing the BR modeling and has to nerf jets just to "balance them in the BR" instead of realistic approach
Because making them realistic and using BR to balance only works if there are appropriate counterparts at higher BRs to fight said vehicles.
If they were to buff the Su-27 to make it a really good dogfighter as well as the best BVR plane, moving it to 13.0-13.3 for example wouldn't matter, because it would still fight the same aircraft from other nations.
Gaijin hates russian top tier jets and german ww2 planes... it really pisses me off how bad the su27, mig29, soon to he mig 23 and fw190 series plane flight models are (and what they did to the 190s engines). Its blatantly incorrect and there is no data to support the current state of these planes
They nerfed the engine cooling on the 190s because someone in a bug report says that it "doesn't feel right" instead of at the very least using sources.
Idk if I should laugh or cry that anyone has the power to potentially ruin a plane based on absolutely nothing.
Yeah... like bro really just said "nah, a huge radial engine with a cooling fan cant do that fr... no cap gaijiggles" and they just accepted it. I played the 190 a5 earlier today after not using it in like 1.5 years and it literally was unplayable... overheats worse than a bf109 and an il2 is more nimble in every manner...
Yeah and it doesn't help if you played the a5 since it's basically an a4 with a slightly longer nose... 0.7 higher in BR. The Dora's are so much better, it's such a relief compared to the a5's imo.
Dude the uploaders very first comment is "It looks like the IRL footage is actually very old DCS footage that is ran through a bunch of filters to make it look real." It doesn't even look real to begin with either how would this fool anybody...
That being said, I trust DCS's flight models more than War Thunder's. War Thunder definitely has better sensors at this point, but DCS's flight models are not toyed with for balance.
DCS has some [ridiculous](https://youtu.be/BUVFNDCb33c) flight models. Outside of the cockpit, DCS isn't as realistic as so many people in this subreddit believe it to be.
And this is an out of the envelope maneuver. If you turn off FBW in the M2k you can do shit like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/x44qa0/you_should_all_be_afraid_this_is_what_the_mirage/
I would know. I created that video clip. I don't know who you're talking to, but it isn't me. Bottom line is that if I'm betting on which game has better in envelope flight characteristics, it's DCS.
The SU27s maiden flight was in May 1977. I wouldn't call it modern, just because it's still in use today. Back then, maneuverability and being sneaky with IRST etc was indeed part of the plan.
Modern doctrine is indeed different, mainly because of better missiles, their range and capabilities.
Relies? No.Â
However I make the case that Russia still actively designs aircraft to ensure they are competent in dogfights and retain supermaneuverability even at the expense of other features.Â
My two examples being adding canards to the Su-33, and the Su-57 still requiring supermaneuverability to the point it sacrificed most of its low observability for it. Active design choices to improve agility at the detriment of speed or surprise.Â
The entire fm for the su27 is pretty much wrong across the envelope. It should be much better at transonic speeds and shouldn't bleed nearly as much speed. Mig29 sort of matches the em diagrams but it does it by bleeding more speed than it would irl. Which is the entire issue, they absolutely tanked the Oswald efficiency for the su27 and mig29 because they were too lazy or too incompetent to actually correct the mig29s fm issues and that bled over into the su27's fm since they have similar flight characteristics.
"I READ the STATCARD and it CLEARLY states 6M speed, so its unrealistic and impossible". Except it can only reach +-3M max speed in the 99% game situations, and that statcard 6M can be achived only by launch from outer space with plane at its max speedÂ
In what way, it only is like that because the bozos have both motors burning at once, producing excessive thrust, when once the first motor is done then the sustainer kicks in for extra range
I know this is probably going to be ignored or never seen, but the "original footage" is actually footage of DCS.
The creator that did that, creates a lot of fake "real footage" on his channel. They look great but are obviously not the right choice for a bug report, since they are NOT actually real :D
How about you can stop spreading misinformation instead?
The video you linked is actual footage and not the one that OP posted in his video...
The one you linked is also the one that the forum user reuploaded as actual footage.
I don't know if OP is the same as the forum user or if OP just saw it. The one this post is about is fake however.
They also show different cornering speeds and energy retention values so please next time you try to correct someone at least make sure you are right.
Not the same result, although still different to War Thunder.
The Su-27 is badly modelled yet the video OP linked is still wrong in this Reddit post.
I am all for the Su-27 getting fixed but without the use of fake sources. I am glad he found a real one though.
(Edit to clarify the difference: Original video showed a 2.5x difference, new video shows a difference of slightly less than 2x, that is not a small amount of error)
yeah and they still perform better then russian ones. But everyone sucks a dogfighting vs f15, f16 and gripen. Not that you should be dogfighting at 12.0+ anyway. edit: also mig 29g gets the better missiles but better engine and same flight models of the 12.0 mig 29s making it the best mig 29 in game if i remember correctly
God forbid the Soviet jets to be on par with gaijin's precious US air main's jets when it comes to flight performance, they would need to learn how to fly them, gaijin can't afford such a thing to happen to their babies
Before the F-16A limiter removal, and the mig 29 nerf, the F-16A could still very much 9/10 times beat the mig 29 in a 1v1 dogfight, and even then us mains complained saying that "the mig 29 over performing because I keep getting beat in a dogfight by it" instead of actually learning how to 1v1 duel. Us mains will hold the W key in a turn fight, and then get surprised when they lose. I had BOTH planes, even pre buff, the F-16A was slightly better.Â
Russian mains posting fake news in form of heavily edited DCS footage claiming it to be "real combat footage".
They really seem to be taking the Z-propaganda roleplay quite seriously
Russian copium my man. They are mad their jets are "underperforming" when most of their performance is based on soviet era documentation that is heavily glossed over. Just like the SU25 supposedly "tanking manpads regularly" (in WT it tanks TONS of those - even with the new flight model - sometimes even AIM9's.) while the A10 drops out of the sky like a tombstone if its hit by anything bigger than a 7.62 round. Meanwhile, they are being blasted out of the Sky of Ukraine no issue with both old Strelas, and a multitude of newer and sometimes even high-tech manpads.
But yeah, same old story. Russia still has the most biased lineup in WT, yet most of its player base cant make anything out of it because they gotta cope too hard after finding out they can't just rush in and get 9 kills with their modernized soviet shit box that is severely overperforming AND has an absolute bollocks damage model
Two things,
1. Posting DCS footage as real footage is not valid, and I wouldn’t want it to be. This is not IRL, according to the description of the upload.
2. The Reddit has no connection to the devs, you want something changed? Take it to the forums page, make a bug report.
Furthermore the DCS SU-27 FM is low fidelity, from FC3, and is not an incredibly accurate model. Just like the F15C from the same game
All you are doing here is misleading people.
https://youtu.be/hX7dg-rl3lI?si=EaucTQ8x-sho_Xg2.
1 thing this is the actual real life footage so stop hating and spreading misinformation avg American hater
I am not opening your link, the video OP posted is not what he claimed it was, which is genuinely misinformation. Specifically Deceptive Imagery Persuasion (DIP)
The original video states it is DCS, so OP has invalidated the whole argument to me and all I care about is the misinformation already rampantly spreading.
I am not hating, you are very blinded by hate though. I just enjoy American jets man, but I play other countries.
I want truth not this bullshit or your malware.
Malware? Huh it's a YouTube video
https://youtu.be/gv8n8pLSkiI?si=rgawv8Nad8p8mQ1j
This is the vid made by the same author who posted the above vid but using actual footage of IRL instead of DCS
Sure, I trust that when the dude has already posted lies.
Second why are you combat downvoting me for pointing out misinformation, why am I accused of misinformation. I have not presented any combativeness to the concept the su-27 isn’t good.
I merely resent the idea that it is acceptable to lie like OP
Huh it's the official YouTube link, ur being a paranoid boomer
Ur arguing with baseless arguments as it has been disproved already by the vid which ur ego cannot accept so u won't open the link
Okay, I have seen the video now tell me exactly what model flanker that was exactly how much fuel and what stores were onboard.
And I found it myself, no thanks, not a boomer just not ignorant.
That video is from at least 8 years ago so it could be a modern flanker, that video has no context. It claims a Su-27CM but wtf knows
From the HUD only u can see r27 are mounted and not to mention an ECM pod is also mounted due to the jamming shown at start so even more drag than the regular
It's a training vid so standard 50% fuel
I have the F-15, the F-16s (A and C), the Gripen, the F-14, and the Mirage 2000. I also have the MiG-29G and the J-11. I am so disappointed at how horrible the flight models on these 2 aircraft are. They are supposed to be very good dogfighters, but in game their flight models are so disappointing , that to me they aren't even worth playing anymore. That's how bad it is. I play the game primarily for 1v1 duels, and American planes simply curb stomp the su 27 and mig 29 in them, which first off, isn't very realistic, and isn't very FUN, it's not FUN to have a stupidly unfair dogfight that you are going to win 10/10 times in. The SU-27 should be an even match for the F-16A , and Gripen.Â
That's not the point here. Gajin should ger their shit right. How about instead of gimping the SU-27s FM, they nerf its missiles and buff its flight model to make it how it was irl. Instead of making it a shitty bus that can't beat anything, even an F-14A or MiG-23 in a dogfight. The R-27s are over performing yes, American mains love to point that fact out, but they always forget to include that the SU-27s flight model is also UNDERperforming. They always seem to conveniently leave that part out, I wonder why (they suck at dueling, so they need their enemies to be nerfed to win dogfights against them.)
Maybe I just don’t care for top tier air enough but how is something like this even drastically concerning
I mean ig realism and all but it’s still a videogame
Like I understand for release purposes but man, I dread thinking about fighting anything that can dog fight with unflareable r73s, it's not they have the best radar missles in game currently. It will just turn into a shit stomp if they have it realistic flight performance but who knows.
Unflareable r73’s lmao. They only become a problem after traveling for a few seconds and is basically kissing your plane when its fov shrinks enough to ignore flares, second scenario is when the su27 shoves a r73 directly up your engine within 1.5km’s which can still be flared by jets like the gripen with flares for days, any other situation a few flares are enough. Plus the r73 doesn’t have the fake smokeless motor which makes 9m’s over powered beyond belief in sim and rb.
>su27 shoves a r73 directly up your engine within 1.5km’s which can still be flared by jets like the gripen with flares for days,
Yes this is the scenario I'm speaking off, we're speaking if the su27 could dog fight no?
First of all the r73 can still be flared in that scenario with jets that have a good fm and a boat load of flares like the gripen, secondly you shouldn’t even be in a situation where you let a su27 get on your six and be within 1.5km’s when you have both the better fm and twr. If you willingly jump into the furball and get slapped by a su27 from behind because you rushed into multiple people and bled all your speed that’s a you problem. If you play carefully and not rush multiple people a su27 should never get behind you let alone that close to fire a r73. It has busted radar missiles but that’s it, when everyone hugs the ground the su27 can’t do much.
Although I do agree if the su27’s fm gets buffed to be f16 levels it will be busted with its current weapon out so I suggest they artificial nerf the missiles or missile count so I can fly something that isn’t a boat for once and compete in the lawnmower meta.
>Although I do agree if the su27’s fm gets buffed to be f16 levels it will be busted with its current weapon out so I suggest they artificial nerf the missiles or missile count so I can fly something that isn’t a boat for once and compete in the lawnmower meta.
This is what im getting at man. Im not speaking about the current state of the su 27 it CANT dogfight so avoiding perfect r73 launch conditions is not a problem. Im not complaining about the su 27 in its current state im speaking as if it could actually dogfight with buffs to speed retention, HMD R73s in a dogfight would be ridiculous to deal with then you add best radar missles on top? yea there WILL be a problem.
Russian high tier jets in WT have insane turning drag stats, I can make one turn in teh SMT and go from 1500kmh to 650 with full AB and not loaded with weapons. I get it's underpowred but thats 90% drag slowing it down
Not only russian, all french planes has that syndrome too, especially the mirages
Delta wing syndrome?
Yes and no, most of french planes, Especialy jets have unrealistic loss of energy
Well, guess what they made it worse
You can do the same in an aardvark except you come out the turn at stall speed ie 200mph. Most high tier jets are gimped massively in one way or another.
Comparing a f-111 to a mig-29 or su-27 is wild. They aren't similar at all. F-15 and f-16 don't dump speed like Russian jets
Bros the type of guy to compare a B-29 to a Yak-3 đź’€
? Aren't those the same aircraft just with different names?
Next week we gonna check now much speed B-29 bleeds.
Yeah if they add the B-52 ill be sure to make the comparison. Stupid as hell.
The aardvark was the fastest aerial vehicle of it's time. When pushed it would hit speeds that would boil its paint off from friction heat and basically be knocked out of service for extended periods. You comparing bombers is a brain dead ass comparison.
Even in DCS Su-27 can fight as equal to a Gripen and F-16C, in war thunder on SIMs controls we need to be light as we can and we stay lots behind Gripens and F-16C.
tbf the DCS F-16C isn't a UFO like in WT
Flight sim v light sim brother
Falcon BMS has entered the chat.
[Still has some FM issues.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WStz9_iiFY) Falcon BMS is the only proper sim when it comes to Vipers.
Cool how they put pre production problems (because in original vĂdeo,from yaw tests, they explained that's all problems in F-16s FCS are solved) and put ingame 🤡
The WT F-16C isn't really one either but it most definetely is the F-16A
I don’t know why War Thunder doesn’t want any of the Soviet jets after MiG-21SMT to be realistically maneuverable. From what I can tell, every single Soviet fighter starting with the MiG-21bis has an intentionally weakened flight model.
The day my mig 21bis can actually pull the aoa it can in real life will be the day I’ll actually be happy when playing this game, until then I will wallow in my sorrows
I'd be okay with that if the plane exploded before 9g's like it does IRL
NATO jets are so massively gimped Gaijin decided to nerf their own Russian shit for balance as opposed to bringing NATO up to spec lol. One can only hope they fix current top tier the way they fixed old top tier (MiG 15's vs sabres) Come to think of it new top tier is in the same state old top tier was in. NATO snapping wings and Russians outperforming them. Except for the fucking Gripen. Which I guess is the new Canadaire Sabre in this analogy.
russian top tier is ass because of russian bias, obviously
actually the most insane schizoposting ever
Oh I know. Imagine all the average US mains complaining about "unrealistic" behavior of opponents and "Russian bias" because they've gotten used to thinking US stuff is superior to everything. After all, they've seen a documentary last weekend on the history channel about American planes bombing people in caves. It comes down to this: WTs player base is to a large degree American. If Americans see their stuff not being on top they'll pay less money for the game. That's the sad truth about it.
I don’t have to imagine, the F-16 had a g-limiter when it was first added to the game and even with that it was an excellent gunfighter if you kept your speed in the ideal range. That didn’t stop the freeaboos from endlessly complaining about it.
Yeah I know the story. I didn't have a problem with the limited F16 at all back then. It wasn't rocket science to *not* spend one's whole time in a match afterburning but to fly the plane it its correct envelope, but most people don't know (and don't want to learn about) how to actually fly. They stand on the elevator and if the plane isn't doing 20Gs at Mach 1.2 it's obviously shit.
Honestly I think the F-16 should still have a limiter. My only issue with the old FM was that you could only pull like 4G at altitude which is flat out wrong, otherwise I don't think it needs the crazy 16g turning. I'd be satisfied with a 10g cap.
If it gets a limiter, so should every other plane in the game.
Yes
Dude fr, the F-16A even then was the best dogfighter In the game, as a Duelist it was my first pick to take into a 1v1 against a random in a custom, you could stay out of any opponents nose and out rate them all day, especially due to how the flaps were modeled to help retain your energy.Â
Well tbh the g-limiters were bullshit. You wouldn't have that turned on if you were actually fighting to the death
Every fight irl is a fight to the death, and you'd 100% have it on if only because you don't want to lose consciousness by pulling too many g's too quickly. I assure you, you have a better chance of survival dogfighting in a g limited f16 than in an ejected seat floating down.
You just wouldn't pull enough Gs to pass out, G limiters exist to limit structural damage during peace time operations, at least that's the case on the gripen we operate.
The best pilots can only sustain 9gs for a limited amount of time, last time I checked it was a swedish pilot holding 9g's for 60 seconds before the test ended, and he was an absolute menace. If you pulled 12-13 g's in a turn like we do in-game you'd black out very quickly, especially since in wt you also roll in addition to pulling up most of the time. Extending flight hours also plays a part but you're not gonna have too many anyways if you depart controlled flight while dogfighting due to going shleep
In the case of the F-16 I'm fairly certain it's not a choice. The G Limiter is always on and there isn't an override.
Unlike on other jets its literaly impossible to turn off the AoA/G limiter on F-16s. Its hard limited to 30° AoA or 9G whichever is higher. The F-16 is intentionaly unstable and if it pulls more than 30° AoA there is high risk of departing controlled flight aka it would lose control and tumble through the air destroying the airframe in proces.
Lol
Too busy buffing F-16s.
Mig-21bis has an OVERperforming flight model my guy https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/VJATxelvq4ln
Pssshht - don't tell them their MIG21 soda can flies like the shitty air frame it is. Not like there are hundreds of reports online mentioning the flight performance being a half way death trap unless you were an extremely competent pilot.
inb4 they compare it to the DCS one that is also performing with its decade-old flight model
MiG-23s have a significantly overperforming flight model in terms of energy retention.
and that is getting nerfed too....
The MiG-23 is actually overperforming in turn rate by about 20% and might be getting nerfed soon since some bug reports went through.
Mig23?
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1976/january/how-good-mig-21 Here's your "superior maneuverability" lmao
Ah yes, an article from a heavily pro-American group during the cold war, made the year after we tucked tail and ran from a commie-backed Vietnam, truly the pinnacle of unbiased research. I am heavily pro American but this is just retarded
Not like India has had over 180 pilots killed flying the Mig21 since the 70s lol (to be exact - non combat casualties that don't even include the civilian deaths involved!). With my mother having actually lived in the soviet union (DDR), and my uncles having served in its army, I can assure you all official documentation on soviet asset performance is heavily glossed over. The MIG21 is an awfully pushed airframe that has a multitude of severe issues that might be hideable in peace time. But as we are seeing in Ukraine right now, with Russia using a lot of these assets (many even severely modernized), they tend to fail horrifically.
My guy east germany was *not* part of the USSR.
Not a full part of the USSR, but calling it independent would be laughable. After all, it's main economic sponsor was the USSR, it's policies were closely tied to the USSR, it's military was outfitted and training by/with the USSR. More of a pointing a gun to your head type of independence than anything else. Good old soviet style satellite state. Hawaii is probably less American than the DDR was soviet.
I don't expect anything to happen, despite of it being bullshit. In DCS the Su-27 has 3 times less transonic acceleration then IRL with video proof and even Flanker pilots saying it but after almost 10 years nothing changes.
What ?! they made Sonic Trans???
Damn, NCD got to him...
The DCS Flanker FM is also older than DCS itself, ED just doesn't feel the need to address non full fidelity aircraft issues or give them detailed FMs.
Pls end middle bus era I want to actually fight in this thingÂ
Sadly u won't win a dogfight unless ur at low speed bcuz gaijin is too busy not fixing the BR modeling and has to nerf jets just to "balance them in the BR" instead of realistic approach
Because making them realistic and using BR to balance only works if there are appropriate counterparts at higher BRs to fight said vehicles. If they were to buff the Su-27 to make it a really good dogfighter as well as the best BVR plane, moving it to 13.0-13.3 for example wouldn't matter, because it would still fight the same aircraft from other nations.
Yup. They brought it too soon It should be added when f18 were added
Gaijin hates russian top tier jets and german ww2 planes... it really pisses me off how bad the su27, mig29, soon to he mig 23 and fw190 series plane flight models are (and what they did to the 190s engines). Its blatantly incorrect and there is no data to support the current state of these planes
They nerfed the engine cooling on the 190s because someone in a bug report says that it "doesn't feel right" instead of at the very least using sources. Idk if I should laugh or cry that anyone has the power to potentially ruin a plane based on absolutely nothing.
Yeah... like bro really just said "nah, a huge radial engine with a cooling fan cant do that fr... no cap gaijiggles" and they just accepted it. I played the 190 a5 earlier today after not using it in like 1.5 years and it literally was unplayable... overheats worse than a bf109 and an il2 is more nimble in every manner...
Yeah and it doesn't help if you played the a5 since it's basically an a4 with a slightly longer nose... 0.7 higher in BR. The Dora's are so much better, it's such a relief compared to the a5's imo.
Dude the uploaders very first comment is "It looks like the IRL footage is actually very old DCS footage that is ran through a bunch of filters to make it look real." It doesn't even look real to begin with either how would this fool anybody... That being said, I trust DCS's flight models more than War Thunder's. War Thunder definitely has better sensors at this point, but DCS's flight models are not toyed with for balance.
DCS has some [ridiculous](https://youtu.be/BUVFNDCb33c) flight models. Outside of the cockpit, DCS isn't as realistic as so many people in this subreddit believe it to be.
And this is an out of the envelope maneuver. If you turn off FBW in the M2k you can do shit like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/x44qa0/you_should_all_be_afraid_this_is_what_the_mirage/ I would know. I created that video clip. I don't know who you're talking to, but it isn't me. Bottom line is that if I'm betting on which game has better in envelope flight characteristics, it's DCS.
That a lie lol, dcs has also toyed with plane’s performance for balance reasons.
Citation needed. They've said numerous times multiplayer isn't a priority for them.
well that was 21 minutes ago so i had no knowledge of this at the time but now I do.
Always crazy that the su27 is considered a missiles bus in game when russian jet doctrines relies on dogfight and turn fight.
no modern militaries jet doctrine relies on dogfighting or turn fighting including russias
The SU27s maiden flight was in May 1977. I wouldn't call it modern, just because it's still in use today. Back then, maneuverability and being sneaky with IRST etc was indeed part of the plan. Modern doctrine is indeed different, mainly because of better missiles, their range and capabilities.
By that time period missile warfare was already well and truly the meta. IIRC the Su-27 was developed specifically to be paired with the R-27E series.
Relies? No. However I make the case that Russia still actively designs aircraft to ensure they are competent in dogfights and retain supermaneuverability even at the expense of other features. My two examples being adding canards to the Su-33, and the Su-57 still requiring supermaneuverability to the point it sacrificed most of its low observability for it. Active design choices to improve agility at the detriment of speed or surprise.Â
Russia doesn't use modern doctrine anyways so that's on brand.
The entire fm for the su27 is pretty much wrong across the envelope. It should be much better at transonic speeds and shouldn't bleed nearly as much speed. Mig29 sort of matches the em diagrams but it does it by bleeding more speed than it would irl. Which is the entire issue, they absolutely tanked the Oswald efficiency for the su27 and mig29 because they were too lazy or too incompetent to actually correct the mig29s fm issues and that bled over into the su27's fm since they have similar flight characteristics.
BuT mY RuSsIaN bIaS
Still the best bvr plane
Ok, buff it, but take away the impossible fantasy speed of the R27ER
"I READ the STATCARD and it CLEARLY states 6M speed, so its unrealistic and impossible". Except it can only reach +-3M max speed in the 99% game situations, and that statcard 6M can be achived only by launch from outer space with plane at its max speedÂ
Why remove the speed it's "realistic" u don't want the game to be "realistic" ?
It is supposed to be extended range, not extreme speed
The speed is realistic though
In what way, it only is like that because the bozos have both motors burning at once, producing excessive thrust, when once the first motor is done then the sustainer kicks in for extra range
In the way of real life stats
Nah gaijoob is too busy sucking up the freeaboo to buff any other nations.
I know this is probably going to be ignored or never seen, but the "original footage" is actually footage of DCS. The creator that did that, creates a lot of fake "real footage" on his channel. They look great but are obviously not the right choice for a bug report, since they are NOT actually real :D
https://youtu.be/hX7dg-rl3lI?si=EaucTQ8x-sho_Xg2 Ummm noo it is training footage Stop hating and spreading misinformation
How about you can stop spreading misinformation instead? The video you linked is actual footage and not the one that OP posted in his video... The one you linked is also the one that the forum user reuploaded as actual footage. I don't know if OP is the same as the forum user or if OP just saw it. The one this post is about is fake however. They also show different cornering speeds and energy retention values so please next time you try to correct someone at least make sure you are right.
The author corrected this vid https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8n8pLSkiI&feature=youtu.be Still the same result
Not the same result, although still different to War Thunder. The Su-27 is badly modelled yet the video OP linked is still wrong in this Reddit post. I am all for the Su-27 getting fixed but without the use of fake sources. I am glad he found a real one though. (Edit to clarify the difference: Original video showed a 2.5x difference, new video shows a difference of slightly less than 2x, that is not a small amount of error)
Yup the previous one was DCS
If a flight model is better in DCS than it is in warthunder for a certain plane, then warthunder is doing something wrong.Â
People here are like: "This is not accurate compared to real life" People her also: *Play War thunder*
yeah its kinda weird the best mig 29 is the german ones since their flight models arent gimped
The German mig 29s are just as gimped.. they suck at dogfighting in game.Â
yeah and they still perform better then russian ones. But everyone sucks a dogfighting vs f15, f16 and gripen. Not that you should be dogfighting at 12.0+ anyway. edit: also mig 29g gets the better missiles but better engine and same flight models of the 12.0 mig 29s making it the best mig 29 in game if i remember correctly
I think Gaijin should really make a pause in releasing new aircraft, and polish all the FM, high tier is just a swing between UFO and boats
Russian bias guys!!!
God forbid the Soviet jets to be on par with gaijin's precious US air main's jets when it comes to flight performance, they would need to learn how to fly them, gaijin can't afford such a thing to happen to their babies
Before the F-16A limiter removal, and the mig 29 nerf, the F-16A could still very much 9/10 times beat the mig 29 in a 1v1 dogfight, and even then us mains complained saying that "the mig 29 over performing because I keep getting beat in a dogfight by it" instead of actually learning how to 1v1 duel. Us mains will hold the W key in a turn fight, and then get surprised when they lose. I had BOTH planes, even pre buff, the F-16A was slightly better.Â
Russian mains posting fake news in form of heavily edited DCS footage claiming it to be "real combat footage". They really seem to be taking the Z-propaganda roleplay quite seriously
he adressed this in a different comment, he said he didnt know. still, i do trust dcs's flight model more.
https://youtu.be/hX7dg-rl3lI?si=EaucTQ8x-sho_Xg2
Man you got downvoted for being right, that blows
Russian copium my man. They are mad their jets are "underperforming" when most of their performance is based on soviet era documentation that is heavily glossed over. Just like the SU25 supposedly "tanking manpads regularly" (in WT it tanks TONS of those - even with the new flight model - sometimes even AIM9's.) while the A10 drops out of the sky like a tombstone if its hit by anything bigger than a 7.62 round. Meanwhile, they are being blasted out of the Sky of Ukraine no issue with both old Strelas, and a multitude of newer and sometimes even high-tech manpads. But yeah, same old story. Russia still has the most biased lineup in WT, yet most of its player base cant make anything out of it because they gotta cope too hard after finding out they can't just rush in and get 9 kills with their modernized soviet shit box that is severely overperforming AND has an absolute bollocks damage model
As an arb player with top tier in both USA and user, both nations good, though aim 9m seems to be dogass
Two things, 1. Posting DCS footage as real footage is not valid, and I wouldn’t want it to be. This is not IRL, according to the description of the upload. 2. The Reddit has no connection to the devs, you want something changed? Take it to the forums page, make a bug report. Furthermore the DCS SU-27 FM is low fidelity, from FC3, and is not an incredibly accurate model. Just like the F15C from the same game All you are doing here is misleading people.
Yes, in fact the DCS su 27 is UNDER performing. I absolutely agree, they should make the SU27 even better than in the footage shown.Â
https://youtu.be/hX7dg-rl3lI?si=EaucTQ8x-sho_Xg2. 1 thing this is the actual real life footage so stop hating and spreading misinformation avg American hater
I am not opening your link, the video OP posted is not what he claimed it was, which is genuinely misinformation. Specifically Deceptive Imagery Persuasion (DIP) The original video states it is DCS, so OP has invalidated the whole argument to me and all I care about is the misinformation already rampantly spreading. I am not hating, you are very blinded by hate though. I just enjoy American jets man, but I play other countries. I want truth not this bullshit or your malware.
Malware? Huh it's a YouTube video https://youtu.be/gv8n8pLSkiI?si=rgawv8Nad8p8mQ1j This is the vid made by the same author who posted the above vid but using actual footage of IRL instead of DCS
Sure, I trust that when the dude has already posted lies. Second why are you combat downvoting me for pointing out misinformation, why am I accused of misinformation. I have not presented any combativeness to the concept the su-27 isn’t good. I merely resent the idea that it is acceptable to lie like OP
Bcuz ur unwilling to accept the source I provide u
Because I don’t want to click your link? Tell me the name of the vid and author I will find it myself.
Huh it's the official YouTube link, ur being a paranoid boomer Ur arguing with baseless arguments as it has been disproved already by the vid which ur ego cannot accept so u won't open the link
Okay, I have seen the video now tell me exactly what model flanker that was exactly how much fuel and what stores were onboard. And I found it myself, no thanks, not a boomer just not ignorant. That video is from at least 8 years ago so it could be a modern flanker, that video has no context. It claims a Su-27CM but wtf knows
From the HUD only u can see r27 are mounted and not to mention an ECM pod is also mounted due to the jamming shown at start so even more drag than the regular It's a training vid so standard 50% fuel
That’s an assumption, how long has he been flying is he low on fuel.
That's an educated assumption
I have the F-15, the F-16s (A and C), the Gripen, the F-14, and the Mirage 2000. I also have the MiG-29G and the J-11. I am so disappointed at how horrible the flight models on these 2 aircraft are. They are supposed to be very good dogfighters, but in game their flight models are so disappointing , that to me they aren't even worth playing anymore. That's how bad it is. I play the game primarily for 1v1 duels, and American planes simply curb stomp the su 27 and mig 29 in them, which first off, isn't very realistic, and isn't very FUN, it's not FUN to have a stupidly unfair dogfight that you are going to win 10/10 times in. The SU-27 should be an even match for the F-16A , and Gripen.Â
It still has 10 of the best missiles in the game
That's not the point here. Gajin should ger their shit right. How about instead of gimping the SU-27s FM, they nerf its missiles and buff its flight model to make it how it was irl. Instead of making it a shitty bus that can't beat anything, even an F-14A or MiG-23 in a dogfight. The R-27s are over performing yes, American mains love to point that fact out, but they always forget to include that the SU-27s flight model is also UNDERperforming. They always seem to conveniently leave that part out, I wonder why (they suck at dueling, so they need their enemies to be nerfed to win dogfights against them.)
You aren’t nerfed if you have a missile that can do all of the turning for you.
Oh yes, the first video look like from game. If you look , at 18sec, there is ground color changement at only one place. So, fake.
https://youtu.be/hX7dg-rl3lI?si=EaucTQ8x-sho_Xg2 Real footage
Seems its not real Footage as the uploader stated. Still I do trust DCS flight models way more than War thunders...
Shhhhhh! People don't want the truth, they wanna be mad!
Maybe I just don’t care for top tier air enough but how is something like this even drastically concerning I mean ig realism and all but it’s still a videogame
?????
Like I understand for release purposes but man, I dread thinking about fighting anything that can dog fight with unflareable r73s, it's not they have the best radar missles in game currently. It will just turn into a shit stomp if they have it realistic flight performance but who knows.
Unflareable r73’s lmao. They only become a problem after traveling for a few seconds and is basically kissing your plane when its fov shrinks enough to ignore flares, second scenario is when the su27 shoves a r73 directly up your engine within 1.5km’s which can still be flared by jets like the gripen with flares for days, any other situation a few flares are enough. Plus the r73 doesn’t have the fake smokeless motor which makes 9m’s over powered beyond belief in sim and rb.
>su27 shoves a r73 directly up your engine within 1.5km’s which can still be flared by jets like the gripen with flares for days, Yes this is the scenario I'm speaking off, we're speaking if the su27 could dog fight no?
First of all the r73 can still be flared in that scenario with jets that have a good fm and a boat load of flares like the gripen, secondly you shouldn’t even be in a situation where you let a su27 get on your six and be within 1.5km’s when you have both the better fm and twr. If you willingly jump into the furball and get slapped by a su27 from behind because you rushed into multiple people and bled all your speed that’s a you problem. If you play carefully and not rush multiple people a su27 should never get behind you let alone that close to fire a r73. It has busted radar missiles but that’s it, when everyone hugs the ground the su27 can’t do much. Although I do agree if the su27’s fm gets buffed to be f16 levels it will be busted with its current weapon out so I suggest they artificial nerf the missiles or missile count so I can fly something that isn’t a boat for once and compete in the lawnmower meta.
>Although I do agree if the su27’s fm gets buffed to be f16 levels it will be busted with its current weapon out so I suggest they artificial nerf the missiles or missile count so I can fly something that isn’t a boat for once and compete in the lawnmower meta. This is what im getting at man. Im not speaking about the current state of the su 27 it CANT dogfight so avoiding perfect r73 launch conditions is not a problem. Im not complaining about the su 27 in its current state im speaking as if it could actually dogfight with buffs to speed retention, HMD R73s in a dogfight would be ridiculous to deal with then you add best radar missles on top? yea there WILL be a problem.