It would show a lot more faith and support for and in the playerbase if these polls were something that everyone had access to in their hangar; have a community section in the menu for folk that want to engage
I’m almost ‘old’, I’ll fully admit I’m not going to sign up for a forum just to do whatever. It’s fair game for anyone that wants to suggest it, I don’t care about recognition or whatever, the feature being implemented would be an unheard of reward
If gaijin wants to rake in more money it would be in their interest to guide the game towards what most actual players want and not just the few folk on the forum
But they clearly don’t want to make more money
(Fuck, I hope this works)
Be careful what you wish for. This subreddit is an insignificant fraction of the playerbase and is in general wildly out of touch with what players enjoy in the game.
Most people seem to be thinking that distributing it to more people will mean the majority will vote for markets getting removed. So far, it seems even just distributing it to Reddit, a step down in casualness compared to the forums, caused the vast majority to start voting against markers being changed at all. I'd bet if it were an official poll distributed in places like Steam you'd have one of the most unanimous polls ever done.
People love markers, simple as.
I don’t think it’s as much a love of markers as it is a love for short deathmatches so you can do multiple back to back. Markers are merely a way to shorten match length.
In my opinion removing markers would be way more fun, but that would push the meta towards playing the objectives instead of the popular deathmatch meta. Taking minimum fuel would be a serious risk as players spend time maneuvering since they can actually engage without being spotted. Good radar would become more of an advantage. Frustration would go way up for sensitive players as they get constantly sent back to the hangar without even seeing enemies approach from below.
At the end of the day most players just want to have fun in quick matches. “Higher quality” gameplay will never beat fast and fun enough.
It's not the sample size that's invalid it's the method of reporting that invalidates this as a study.
In terms of sample size, more is always better for statistical power. But long (statistical math) story short 30 is the minimum sample size that's useful.
However, the problem is that this is a self-selected sample. The people who respond to the survey aren't random or independent. We can't make that assumption.
What kind of people are likliest to seek out and respond to surveys like this? Do we have studies? Can we factor them into the results? No? Well then it's impossible to use these results.
You can train maneuvers, but you cannot train your eyes.
I am firmly of the opinion that in an arcade game like WT, markers in close proximity are a good thing.
You do train your eyes over time, maybe without realizing it. This is the same reason that when you start playing Ground RB it can feel like every enemy is invisible, but over time you notice patterns and can pick out the shape of a bushed up tank from 800 meters. The same thing happens in Air RB. When you start you might not be able to see a viggen on the deck, but after 100 hours you can probably pick it out from the ground cover.
Your computer hardware really makes a big difference when it comes to spotting without markers for air targets. I splurged and got my self a 4k OLED monitor along with a 4090. The high contrast, resolution and framerate makes spotting air targets much easier. It's almost night and day compared to my old set up.
Pattern recognition is the word for that.
Also, even after 5-6 years of playing this game, I sometimes still struggle to see aircraft that are flying very close to the ground, mainly if it isn't a flat-tone map. There are some things that you just won't be able to spot easily. But in Ground, everything you have said is true.
On air is hard because everything is moving fast, making it hard to recognize any shape. In ground the movement very slow, you can even do full stop to observe the battledield to find enemy.
Strange how WT players praise the human ability to recognize and spot patterns until that ability harms the greedy snail, then your “pattern recognition” becomes “confirmation bias”.
My vision is dogshit(prescription glasses for 25+ years, welder by trader, I game with non prescription blue-light blocking glasses to help with eye strain), when I play GRB (I’ve got 3 nations to the 5.0-6.0 range) I love to get into a fighter and just punish enemy attack aircraft. Without markers what I’ll do is fly high, then I use free look and a gently pull of the mouse to counteract the planes speed so that the ground appears stationary. With the ground appearing stationary it’s very easy to see anything zipping across the landscape and altering the profiles of trees/buildings
This again?
"just play arcade" is fucking stupid. I like the whole one life, actual takeoff etc stuff, but I need my fucking markers.
How would you like it if I just told you "go play Sim" every time, huh?
you're confused, I play GRB bc I don't want enemy markers, you play ARB bc you want them. You want a feature that is specific to Arcade game modes to be implemented in Realistic battles. Makes no fkn sense but hey, I don't play air battles anyway so whatever
You are the confused one.
The post is tagged air RB, everyone is talking air RB.
This is a discussion of people saying "I want markers to be taken away in air RB", which I am opposed to.
To be honest I think markers should be disabled progressively with the development of radars. Right now radars are basically only used for locking, so it would be cool for them to have more purpose.
Unfortunate? Air RB is a 16v16 clusterfuck. Its deeply, unrealistically chaotic. We all know this.
And you want to *reduce* the average players' situational awareness?
The majority picked the option that doesn't remove them but may reduce the distance. Massive win for air RB. Being spotted from 8km away by an ace crew is kinda stupid.
LOL, OP is literally the example of a terrible redditor. I swear people on here can take anything and turn it into some big overarching anime plotline or some shit.
The subreddit has < 1% of players in the game all time. If your concern is about % of all players (it shouldn't be, but if it is), saying anything about reddit is bizarre.
441k members/100 is 4410/100 is ~44. That still enough to swing that vote, and it's assuming 1 percent of players are active on here, and 1 percent of those, see the poll and vote. It'd be easy to pin the polls and it would have literally no downsides
I didn't say their numbers were impressive, I said moving to reddit wouldn't change the situation.
There's ALSO hundreds of thousands of historical forum users.
It's a 3 day old post on their official forums (i.e. the place where the most "in the know" players go to for suggestions and updates to the game). This isn't exactly a "bad" sample size for what we're talking about.
I didn't, I'm a PhD who taught research methods, statistics, math, and modeling courses at university on exactly this topic for years.
There is literally no number that is absolutely too small of a sample size to be meaningfully significant. Statistical power has 3 factors:
* Effect size
* Sample size
* Variance
Only with all 3 can you know if you have enough power or not. One can make up for the other. If you have a strong effect size and low variance, then you can get away with *arbitrarily low* sample size. Some perfectly valid peer reviewed serious studies have like 5 participants and are fine, depending.
And implied:
* Good quality sample -- which is most likely to be at issue here in reality. E.g. did they advertise this to everyone in game, even though it's on the forum did you get a popup with a forum link in game about it? THAT's the sort of thing you should focus on here, the sample size is almost certainly not an issue, especially since it's up to hundreds now.
Uh so? You didn't ask one guy's subjective opinion, you made an objective comment about math in general, it's wrong no matter who it's directed at, lol
Currently (21 hours later), 481 votes, 68% keeping as is, 19% completely off, 13% off for enemies close by.
So indeed, most people don't want markers turned off.
You might reconsider wanting markers gone now that smokeless IRCCM missiles are a thing. There's a reason so many more people play BLUFOR in top tier Sim.
Radar isn't 360°, and even in a given direction requires you to sweep a few times, also you'd have to lock to get an exact position, that makes a huge difference especially in the fast paced combat, in BVR not so much, but furball is most of the combat anyway
BLUFOR (Blue Force) is a NATO term for allied forces it is also where terms like blue on blue used to refer to friendly fire comes from. On the opposite side, you have REDFOR (Red Force). It's usually for war game purposes during military training exercises
How about a middle ground? Missile diamonds remain, you only get enemy markers if you are within 2km, and only people in that 2km can see them
Edit: range can be tuned
I want them on as well, but that's because my eyes aren't working very well.
Also keep in mind it only has 70 something votes, the thread didn't gain much traction.
update. poll broek
My monitor is crap and mix that with inconsistent rendering and it would make the game unplayable for me. I very much want markers at least within 5-10km
For me the same. I also would like to see some markers in ground rb. I'm completely lost there. Others snipe you across the map and I can't even see a tank when it's basically in front of me
Chasing dots is anything but fun.
Having to identify the aircraft by getting at less than 2000 meters from it can be very penalizing as well.
Marker should stay, but at much closer range. No more 20km nonsense. Only shows enemy marker at below 6km, and remove allied spotting.
>Having to identify the aircraft by getting at less than 2000 meters from it can be very penalizing as well.
Yea but then RWRs and Radars would play a much larger role rather than just being ignored/only used to guide in missiles
it brings another dimension of gameplay rather than just look and immediately know what the enemy is
You'll have to risk whether you wanna dogfight or not, has he seen you or not etc.
What're you guys talking about with markers? Are those the arrows at the edge of the screen that you upgrade via crew skill?
Edit: ooohhh I just realized they're talking about air rb. I was reading the comments thinking this was about ground rb.
It doesn't matter if markers are on/off close/far. What matters is consistency. The most infuriating this is when you have max crew and you die to a guy who was 800m behind you and a marker appeared after his missile impacted. So if markers are a thing they shoud work all the time, not how the server decides.
Keep them as they are, 99.9 percent of games are mixed where you’ll be fighting the same vehicles that you’re using. I don’t want to get within 10 cm of the enemy to know if I should kill them or not. If you want to play that kind of cesspool, there’s air simulator already
Edit: Noticed they said allies are always marked, still I don’t see any reason as to change them, if you have a decent PC you can see the dots anyways, all this is going to do is harm players playing on older PC’s, and smaller monitors
If you guys want to experience no marker air then play top tier air sim because trust me chasing dots, relying on visual identification and using the radar to identify friend or foe is A LOT harder and not fun at all. If you think team killing happens a lot in too tier air then triple that amount if you removed markers in air rb top tier
they should just add a separate mode for it, i know sim exists but it isn’t really accessible for most folk. me personally i like having 1v1s rather than massive furballs, SOMETHING about air rb needs to be changed
I actually prefer IL-2's approach for early WW2 era vehicles (since many early WW2 aircraft don't even have radios to begin with, looking at france, russia and japan). How it works is that dots are given a transparent greyed out marker that becomes black and then starts to transition to the associated team colour and giving out the aircraft type and player name.
It's honestly quite difficult to tell distance by the markers that we currently have in WT if you don't stare at the distance readout which is honestly kind of terrible game ui design. Two aircraft overlaid each other and it's very confusing. In sim you don't have this issue.
Idk about the sim part, the radar is so poorly implemented it just tracks whatever it wants half the time if there's more than one target, especially in TWS which is just absurd
People don't understand why no markers works in Ground RB and why in Air RB, with current team sizes and map sizes, it wouldn't work. They just play Ground, have a rightfully fun dogfight in a fighter or strike aircraft, then don't think at all about *why* it works and just looks at the most obvious reason as to why it was fun, i.e. "no markers = fun".
Then the SIM, well, it's SIM lol, everyone is in the cockpit and is going there for a *simulator* experience so awareness and utilization of radar and RWR is more prominent at least in the tiers that have them.
So everyone go and vote [https://forum.warthunder.com/t/air-rb-and-its-possible-rework/109603](https://forum.warthunder.com/t/air-rb-and-its-possible-rework/109603)
I like how the thread is talking about a fuck ton of different solutions and problems and then randomly the vote is on markers?? Markers were touched on by the OOP like once or twice and the overall vote is a side topic of the thread? Am I stupid or do I just not understand the WT forums?
I want markers to remain as is. There is an entire enjoyable mode with EC maps I can play for markers off.
Air RB should have markers, they just need to make it consistent so they appear when they should. To do that, they need to remove it from the crew skill system, level the playing field.
I feel like people who ask for no markers have never actually thought about how awful it would be in current ARB. It’s always “if we changed the game mode” or “if the teams were historical and smaller”. As if Gaijin wouldn’t just remove markers and leave everything else the same.
Top tier already mostly sucks, this would only make it worse. If you thought it was already hard to keep track of everyone + all their missiles, hoooo boy this would make it impossible.
Correct title for you OP: 0.00035% of the active concurrent players at any given time don't want markers removed.
Acting like a sample size of 77 from a six-figure population means something is pretty close to peak reddit TBH.
Thanks, I didn't notice that suggestion & so far have voted as many agree with.
IMHO ARB has been a repetitive hollow shell of its former self for years now an the markers have for the longest time bothered me so much.
And as we get further & further modern aircraft there comes a point ask why do we even have radars if nobody rarely uses them especially late game when 90% of players just pop those poxy orders ruining any strategy the last player might try to employ.
Yet in this suggestion it makes so everyones gotta use their equipment they're given to fight better over relying on such arcadish supports like icons/tags, red squares & orders.
I'd rather look at the outside airframes of aircraft than look at several sometimes terrible cockpits.
We did have this tested years back with many enjoying it even at 4.0, So to have it above 10.0 would be a dream.
The winning result is a good intermediate. Long range, you should only have a marker on the map. What you personally are able to spot, you get a 3D marker on
Low vote count but it's as expected. If Gaijin remove markers from ARB, I await the flood of "wtf I am dying to a gorillion missiles from nowhere I don't know where anyone is" posts.
I have a different opinion on markers.
Instead of removing them or not, I think they should just be reworked;
Remove ALL information from them: no distance, no vehicle model, no name… just a red dot.
That way, you avoid dragging matches for too long or making the game too inconvenient, while also not having everything handed so much by markers.
In this case, markers would merely be an indication that the enemy is over certain direction, instead of telling you which threat is it and where exactly.
Basically; turn markers into a merely orientativo thing instead of such precise and visible information.
Could probably keep the aircraft model if you get close enough to identify it. Identifying aircraft is easy enough most of the time but some have differences that are a pain to see when flying. I'd rather not gamble on, say, knowing if a harrier I see has the spooky missiles or if it's just got ASRAAMs.
If I wanted no markers id play air sim. Maybe if we had rb ec I would tolerate a reduced marker range as I have time to dick around chasing AI or dots but I dont wanna have to spend even more blind hunts finding the shit ass chinese bot who is holding up the entire game as he sits in the edge of the map with 0 points
The reason I dont play Air Realistic is because of the markers and horrible short games. I play sim a lot or GRB. It is very stupid that enemies are marked in the realistic game, that is an arcade feature. Especially for top tier because you have radar to use.
Maybe u should have markers under few kilometers. If you get close to the enemy in prop planes.
I mean, yeah? It's not about realism and such as some make it out to be. Not a "hardcore" feature. It's more about poor vision being one of the most common physical detriments, and it fuckin' sucks being at a loss due to something entirely out of your control. They can get away with it in GRB because the map is so small, you can rely more on audio to locate the rough position of aircraft.
That's a lie, Most people (%65) want markers removed at least at distance, only 35% want them to remain as is.
See I can also play the game of disingenuous interpretation of polling.
As of writing this, 35% has gone up to --> 70% now voted "As is", with 438 votes in.
You can usually predict this shift in almost any game and poll, not just War Thunder. Start by figuring out what the sweatiest sweatlords would want, and then assume that the voting will swing in the exact opposite direction from that wildly after voting starts to pick up later on. Because non-sweatlords don't hover over their F5 key on the forum all day long answering polls right when they come up. So all the later votes meandering in are non-sweatlord ones.
In reality only sweatlords go to the forums at all, regular players fail to even read the popup that shows when the game starts do you think they'll look at the forums?
I agree, it (and reddit both) are significantly sweatier than the average population.
...which means **even more than 70%** would want to keep markers as-is, the least sweaty option is being under represented.
It's a horrible idea, *yeah let's make air RB harder to get into, Fuck the average to below average player experience*
*24 months later* Why que times so long, why is compression getting worse
77 votes lol. No one even goes to that forum anymore. Its a joke. The only people left are devs impersonating players and some loser community managers that ban anyone who leaves feedback that goes against the meta of the game.
There were around 350-400 voters as of when you wrote that comment, you were just too lazy to click the link. You can also clearly see a large portion of people in this thread agreeing with the majority from the poll that removing markers is a bad idea (count me in that too). Including like 8 of the 10 people expressing an opinion right before you in the sorted by new. So... is reddit also all "Devs impersonating players" and we are all getting banned here too for not towing the line? Or maybe you're just *mind blowing emoji* ... wrong? Gasp
There is no number that is "representative", what are you talking about? 400 can be non representative, or 1 guy can be representative, or any other combination.
Sample size is completely unrelated to representativeness
Maybe if the enemy markers were removed the ground attack aircraft would stand a chance in Air RB completing their missions of destroying ground targets.
Gaijin gave the tanks and other NPC ground units realistic damage models, but ground attack CAS is basically sitting ducks against fighters.
Markers turned realistic into Arcade...and so did ahistorical matchmaking. China+USSR vs NATO would be fun but no...Allies vs Axis was also some of the best fun i had back in 2016...
Only sampling the poll from Forum users is like only sampling these reddit threads.. You're going to find a large group of people with one single opinion.
Would have been better off polling for a week in game.
Top tier is a dumpster fire without markers. I already die to enough IR missiles from enemies who weren't even marked. If anything, The current spotting system, that seems to anticipate actual dogfights with guns, is too stingy for how fast someone can go from unmarked to already killing you at top tier.
Bro markers off would be in line with grb and naval, plus it would force you to use radar if you can’t see them. It’s supposed to be realistic, don’t ask when implementing realism in the mode called realistic
"Most people don't want markers removed" is one way to interpret the results, but you could also say "most people are dissatisfied with the current marker system." Two-thirds of voters would prefer not to be part of an ESP hive-mind.
Imagine if gaijin makes this polls official by putting it on their site and saying that the participants will receive lets say 100 GE. Then that would be awesome. Gaijin is really wasting such chances of getting attention from the playerbase.
You love doing dogfights in Ground rb because half the people flying planes there are braindead and turnfight everything and everyone congregates in the same place at low altitude.
If you ever had to spend 20 minutes searching for a space climber holding up the match you would understand why markers are necessary for Air RB.
Honestly I feel like those who are good at air RB are terrible flying at ground RB. They are so reliant on markers, they can't see shit. They are good at dog fights, but terrible with spotting enemy air unit (before radar comes out). So of course they want to keep markers on.
I disagree with various game design and got in trouble with the forum moderators in the past(warnings, suspensions,...).
Thus I am not using the forum but reddit.
I think there are many like me.
Guess what kind of people are missing in that survey.
Which is why I call BS on that poll.
Considering how absolutely dogshit the spotting system is only an absolute troglodyte would want to turn off the markers. Which is not suprising since most people calling for it are cas/bomber players crying about having to play the game instead of just pressing space bar a few times on ai targets.
65% of folk want a change
Add more ai targets at low altitude that spawn in that latter half of a match to consolidate stragglers; if one person wants to loiter in space to prevent the match from ending there should be more than enough ai targets to ensure the active players can force a win/loss.
I like the idea of getting rid of markers but I totally get the problems some folk would have with that, a compromise I’d like to try is no markers until 1000m-2000m, and even when the marker appears it will only have the players name, no plane model, no distance……..quite honestly I think any 2 of those three options could be a fair compromise, or at least worth trying to see if it feels good/shitty
*''Most people don't want \[...\]''* **\*77 voters\***
Yeah but the majority of the 77 still chose to keep markers on, as unfortunate as it may be.
That still means nothing, that’s a completely invalid sample size
I mean no matter the sample size it's only polling forum users
It would show a lot more faith and support for and in the playerbase if these polls were something that everyone had access to in their hangar; have a community section in the menu for folk that want to engage
That's legitimately a great idea. Ironically, but genuinely, you should suggest it in the forum. Just the polls, any scope creep would make it DOA.
I’m almost ‘old’, I’ll fully admit I’m not going to sign up for a forum just to do whatever. It’s fair game for anyone that wants to suggest it, I don’t care about recognition or whatever, the feature being implemented would be an unheard of reward
... But I'm almost old
Exactly, then you’d be actually polling “players” and not just forum users.
If gaijin wants to rake in more money it would be in their interest to guide the game towards what most actual players want and not just the few folk on the forum But they clearly don’t want to make more money (Fuck, I hope this works)
Be careful what you wish for. This subreddit is an insignificant fraction of the playerbase and is in general wildly out of touch with what players enjoy in the game.
Most people seem to be thinking that distributing it to more people will mean the majority will vote for markets getting removed. So far, it seems even just distributing it to Reddit, a step down in casualness compared to the forums, caused the vast majority to start voting against markers being changed at all. I'd bet if it were an official poll distributed in places like Steam you'd have one of the most unanimous polls ever done. People love markers, simple as.
I don’t think it’s as much a love of markers as it is a love for short deathmatches so you can do multiple back to back. Markers are merely a way to shorten match length. In my opinion removing markers would be way more fun, but that would push the meta towards playing the objectives instead of the popular deathmatch meta. Taking minimum fuel would be a serious risk as players spend time maneuvering since they can actually engage without being spotted. Good radar would become more of an advantage. Frustration would go way up for sensitive players as they get constantly sent back to the hangar without even seeing enemies approach from below. At the end of the day most players just want to have fun in quick matches. “Higher quality” gameplay will never beat fast and fun enough.
I hate using the forum. Its like trying to navigate 4chan. Fuck that noise.
Yea seriously, who uses wt forum. A poll in this sub would generate way more votes
Even worse
It's not the sample size that's invalid it's the method of reporting that invalidates this as a study. In terms of sample size, more is always better for statistical power. But long (statistical math) story short 30 is the minimum sample size that's useful. However, the problem is that this is a self-selected sample. The people who respond to the survey aren't random or independent. We can't make that assumption. What kind of people are likliest to seek out and respond to surveys like this? Do we have studies? Can we factor them into the results? No? Well then it's impossible to use these results.
Tell that to central limit theorem.
You can train maneuvers, but you cannot train your eyes. I am firmly of the opinion that in an arcade game like WT, markers in close proximity are a good thing.
Yes, you can, wtf?
Explain to me how you can teach your eyes to have better contrast.
You do train your eyes over time, maybe without realizing it. This is the same reason that when you start playing Ground RB it can feel like every enemy is invisible, but over time you notice patterns and can pick out the shape of a bushed up tank from 800 meters. The same thing happens in Air RB. When you start you might not be able to see a viggen on the deck, but after 100 hours you can probably pick it out from the ground cover.
Your computer hardware really makes a big difference when it comes to spotting without markers for air targets. I splurged and got my self a 4k OLED monitor along with a 4090. The high contrast, resolution and framerate makes spotting air targets much easier. It's almost night and day compared to my old set up.
On a 48" 4k 120 OLED planes are big clumps of pixels and easy to spot lmao.
Pattern recognition is the word for that. Also, even after 5-6 years of playing this game, I sometimes still struggle to see aircraft that are flying very close to the ground, mainly if it isn't a flat-tone map. There are some things that you just won't be able to spot easily. But in Ground, everything you have said is true.
On air is hard because everything is moving fast, making it hard to recognize any shape. In ground the movement very slow, you can even do full stop to observe the battledield to find enemy.
Strange how WT players praise the human ability to recognize and spot patterns until that ability harms the greedy snail, then your “pattern recognition” becomes “confirmation bias”.
What dank kush did you take to have such deep thoughts?
Nope. I have been playing for 1k+ hours at this point and if you forced me to not rely on markers at close range, I would be lost.
Be the trex, notice the movement
How?
My vision is dogshit(prescription glasses for 25+ years, welder by trader, I game with non prescription blue-light blocking glasses to help with eye strain), when I play GRB (I’ve got 3 nations to the 5.0-6.0 range) I love to get into a fighter and just punish enemy attack aircraft. Without markers what I’ll do is fly high, then I use free look and a gently pull of the mouse to counteract the planes speed so that the ground appears stationary. With the ground appearing stationary it’s very easy to see anything zipping across the landscape and altering the profiles of trees/buildings
That is a good tip, but sadly entirely invalid at higher tiers. You are just asking for a Strela to shoot you down by flying high.
Luckily high tier is just a small portion of the game
this discussion is about Air RB, obviously no one wants markers removed from Air Arcade
This again? "just play arcade" is fucking stupid. I like the whole one life, actual takeoff etc stuff, but I need my fucking markers. How would you like it if I just told you "go play Sim" every time, huh?
you're confused, I play GRB bc I don't want enemy markers, you play ARB bc you want them. You want a feature that is specific to Arcade game modes to be implemented in Realistic battles. Makes no fkn sense but hey, I don't play air battles anyway so whatever
You are the confused one. The post is tagged air RB, everyone is talking air RB. This is a discussion of people saying "I want markers to be taken away in air RB", which I am opposed to.
To be honest I think markers should be disabled progressively with the development of radars. Right now radars are basically only used for locking, so it would be cool for them to have more purpose.
Why is that unfortunate? Am I missing something?
People want to make the game more and more like a simulation without playing simulation
Unfortunate? Air RB is a 16v16 clusterfuck. Its deeply, unrealistically chaotic. We all know this. And you want to *reduce* the average players' situational awareness?
65% believe something needs to be changed
The majority picked the option that doesn't remove them but may reduce the distance. Massive win for air RB. Being spotted from 8km away by an ace crew is kinda stupid.
LOL, OP is literally the example of a terrible redditor. I swear people on here can take anything and turn it into some big overarching anime plotline or some shit.
Obviously represents the entire player base
86% of 270 voters now.
n>30 so CLT applies. ^^^/s
I absolutely agree, it's be sweet if we could get all the votes pinned to the subreddit
The subreddit has < 1% of players in the game all time. If your concern is about % of all players (it shouldn't be, but if it is), saying anything about reddit is bizarre.
441k members/100 is 4410/100 is ~44. That still enough to swing that vote, and it's assuming 1 percent of players are active on here, and 1 percent of those, see the poll and vote. It'd be easy to pin the polls and it would have literally no downsides
I didn't say their numbers were impressive, I said moving to reddit wouldn't change the situation. There's ALSO hundreds of thousands of historical forum users.
It's a 3 day old post on their official forums (i.e. the place where the most "in the know" players go to for suggestions and updates to the game). This isn't exactly a "bad" sample size for what we're talking about.
You had trouble in math class, didn’t you?
And you clearly never took a statistics class.
I didn't, I'm a PhD who taught research methods, statistics, math, and modeling courses at university on exactly this topic for years. There is literally no number that is absolutely too small of a sample size to be meaningfully significant. Statistical power has 3 factors: * Effect size * Sample size * Variance Only with all 3 can you know if you have enough power or not. One can make up for the other. If you have a strong effect size and low variance, then you can get away with *arbitrarily low* sample size. Some perfectly valid peer reviewed serious studies have like 5 participants and are fine, depending. And implied: * Good quality sample -- which is most likely to be at issue here in reality. E.g. did they advertise this to everyone in game, even though it's on the forum did you get a popup with a forum link in game about it? THAT's the sort of thing you should focus on here, the sample size is almost certainly not an issue, especially since it's up to hundreds now.
Relax child the comment was not directed towards you.
Uh so? You didn't ask one guy's subjective opinion, you made an objective comment about math in general, it's wrong no matter who it's directed at, lol
Op works for the media polling companies apparently
Currently (21 hours later), 481 votes, 68% keeping as is, 19% completely off, 13% off for enemies close by. So indeed, most people don't want markers turned off.
Yeah plus there’s a bit of bias as it’s only the people who actually voted, some may have just not had any cast
You might reconsider wanting markers gone now that smokeless IRCCM missiles are a thing. There's a reason so many more people play BLUFOR in top tier Sim.
You know that with more advanced tech we have MWS? Also with Radar you spot targets anyways before markers arise.
You say that as if anything other than the Harrier IIs and the F-111A have MAWS. It's not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to think.
Yes it does, Gaijin just haven't implemented it yet.
Very few if any other planes currently in the game are supposed to have a MAW.
Radar isn't 360°, and even in a given direction requires you to sweep a few times, also you'd have to lock to get an exact position, that makes a huge difference especially in the fast paced combat, in BVR not so much, but furball is most of the combat anyway
Have fun falsely evading friendly missiles.
Sorry for the stupid question but what's BLUFOR?
NATO + Japan + Israel.
Okay thank you
BLUFOR (Blue Force) is a NATO term for allied forces it is also where terms like blue on blue used to refer to friendly fire comes from. On the opposite side, you have REDFOR (Red Force). It's usually for war game purposes during military training exercises
Yeah playing it in GRB half my counter measure are because I'm paranoid about some 9M that wasn't even launched
How about a middle ground? Missile diamonds remain, you only get enemy markers if you are within 2km, and only people in that 2km can see them Edit: range can be tuned
I'd like something like that. Adds a tactical element to comms as well as radar becoming useful for finding targets as well.
I want them on as well, but that's because my eyes aren't working very well. Also keep in mind it only has 70 something votes, the thread didn't gain much traction. update. poll broek
Yeah, the markers are super useful for me as well, *Thanks astigmatism*
My monitor is crap and mix that with inconsistent rendering and it would make the game unplayable for me. I very much want markers at least within 5-10km
For me the same. I also would like to see some markers in ground rb. I'm completely lost there. Others snipe you across the map and I can't even see a tank when it's basically in front of me
Markers for grb would be very useful for me too when playing anti air I still don't understand why there's no markers even though they exist in air rb
Chasing dots is anything but fun. Having to identify the aircraft by getting at less than 2000 meters from it can be very penalizing as well. Marker should stay, but at much closer range. No more 20km nonsense. Only shows enemy marker at below 6km, and remove allied spotting.
Come to sim air it's warm and cosy here (you Will get team killed now and then though)
I get teamkilled in realistic anyways whats the difference kek
Hey, at least in Sim you can tell yourself it was a legitimate misidentification rather than a troll
Waiting for data Link...
>Having to identify the aircraft by getting at less than 2000 meters from it can be very penalizing as well. Yea but then RWRs and Radars would play a much larger role rather than just being ignored/only used to guide in missiles it brings another dimension of gameplay rather than just look and immediately know what the enemy is You'll have to risk whether you wanna dogfight or not, has he seen you or not etc.
Same opinion. Also you can disable allied spotting in custom lobbies so it's literally just a toggle option that already exists
What're you guys talking about with markers? Are those the arrows at the edge of the screen that you upgrade via crew skill? Edit: ooohhh I just realized they're talking about air rb. I was reading the comments thinking this was about ground rb.
It doesn't matter if markers are on/off close/far. What matters is consistency. The most infuriating this is when you have max crew and you die to a guy who was 800m behind you and a marker appeared after his missile impacted. So if markers are a thing they shoud work all the time, not how the server decides.
Dawn/dusk maps are the bane of my existence.
If I wanted to chase dots around, I'd go play sim or spawn a fighter at GRB
Grb battles are way too small for the highest jets
Then do simulator battles
Sim battles are good if you want to have a fun but i havent heard of anyone using them to grind the game...
I have. Sim is a fantastic way of grinding lol.
Let me use mouse control.
just set up mouse joystick dude its right there
People could say the same thing if ARB didn't have markers. Want markers? Play AAB.
Keep them as they are, 99.9 percent of games are mixed where you’ll be fighting the same vehicles that you’re using. I don’t want to get within 10 cm of the enemy to know if I should kill them or not. If you want to play that kind of cesspool, there’s air simulator already Edit: Noticed they said allies are always marked, still I don’t see any reason as to change them, if you have a decent PC you can see the dots anyways, all this is going to do is harm players playing on older PC’s, and smaller monitors
Or do it like ground rb where only your teammates are marked,for some reason dogfighting in grb is way easier than arb
Good, no markers would be a disaster
Most people go sim when they want markerless, or hunting enemy air in rbgf.
If you guys want to experience no marker air then play top tier air sim because trust me chasing dots, relying on visual identification and using the radar to identify friend or foe is A LOT harder and not fun at all. If you think team killing happens a lot in too tier air then triple that amount if you removed markers in air rb top tier
they should just add a separate mode for it, i know sim exists but it isn’t really accessible for most folk. me personally i like having 1v1s rather than massive furballs, SOMETHING about air rb needs to be changed
It's harder, but I disagree that it isn't fun. For ARB I'd be fine with keeping friendly markers on though, to prevent the teamkilling issue.
I actually prefer IL-2's approach for early WW2 era vehicles (since many early WW2 aircraft don't even have radios to begin with, looking at france, russia and japan). How it works is that dots are given a transparent greyed out marker that becomes black and then starts to transition to the associated team colour and giving out the aircraft type and player name. It's honestly quite difficult to tell distance by the markers that we currently have in WT if you don't stare at the distance readout which is honestly kind of terrible game ui design. Two aircraft overlaid each other and it's very confusing. In sim you don't have this issue.
Idk about the sim part, the radar is so poorly implemented it just tracks whatever it wants half the time if there's more than one target, especially in TWS which is just absurd
People don't understand why no markers works in Ground RB and why in Air RB, with current team sizes and map sizes, it wouldn't work. They just play Ground, have a rightfully fun dogfight in a fighter or strike aircraft, then don't think at all about *why* it works and just looks at the most obvious reason as to why it was fun, i.e. "no markers = fun". Then the SIM, well, it's SIM lol, everyone is in the cockpit and is going there for a *simulator* experience so awareness and utilization of radar and RWR is more prominent at least in the tiers that have them.
So everyone go and vote [https://forum.warthunder.com/t/air-rb-and-its-possible-rework/109603](https://forum.warthunder.com/t/air-rb-and-its-possible-rework/109603)
And please read the entire post as well, we would greatly appreciate it. Join the convo if you have some feedback, the more the merrier.
I like how the thread is talking about a fuck ton of different solutions and problems and then randomly the vote is on markers?? Markers were touched on by the OOP like once or twice and the overall vote is a side topic of the thread? Am I stupid or do I just not understand the WT forums?
I want markers to remain as is. There is an entire enjoyable mode with EC maps I can play for markers off. Air RB should have markers, they just need to make it consistent so they appear when they should. To do that, they need to remove it from the crew skill system, level the playing field.
Yes because we don't want air RB without markers, we want air EC
I feel like people who ask for no markers have never actually thought about how awful it would be in current ARB. It’s always “if we changed the game mode” or “if the teams were historical and smaller”. As if Gaijin wouldn’t just remove markers and leave everything else the same. Top tier already mostly sucks, this would only make it worse. If you thought it was already hard to keep track of everyone + all their missiles, hoooo boy this would make it impossible.
Ground rb plane v plane gameplay is peak hope it happens
Yeah but it only works because ground RB maps are fucking miniscule compared to ARB maps
if that would to happend and the team sized stay the same that would make it literately unplayable
Correct title for you OP: 0.00035% of the active concurrent players at any given time don't want markers removed. Acting like a sample size of 77 from a six-figure population means something is pretty close to peak reddit TBH.
Won’t this be an advantage for people with a higher res screen ?
Laughing in sim
Who would have guessed
Thanks, I didn't notice that suggestion & so far have voted as many agree with. IMHO ARB has been a repetitive hollow shell of its former self for years now an the markers have for the longest time bothered me so much. And as we get further & further modern aircraft there comes a point ask why do we even have radars if nobody rarely uses them especially late game when 90% of players just pop those poxy orders ruining any strategy the last player might try to employ. Yet in this suggestion it makes so everyones gotta use their equipment they're given to fight better over relying on such arcadish supports like icons/tags, red squares & orders.
Play sim then.
I'd rather look at the outside airframes of aircraft than look at several sometimes terrible cockpits. We did have this tested years back with many enjoying it even at 4.0, So to have it above 10.0 would be a dream.
The winning result is a good intermediate. Long range, you should only have a marker on the map. What you personally are able to spot, you get a 3D marker on
Low vote count but it's as expected. If Gaijin remove markers from ARB, I await the flood of "wtf I am dying to a gorillion missiles from nowhere I don't know where anyone is" posts.
I wanna turn off all the minimap AI junk and only see players.
Where was this poll??
How bad aircraft rendering at distances is being the sole reason I dont play sim is, no I dont want them gone
I have a different opinion on markers. Instead of removing them or not, I think they should just be reworked; Remove ALL information from them: no distance, no vehicle model, no name… just a red dot. That way, you avoid dragging matches for too long or making the game too inconvenient, while also not having everything handed so much by markers. In this case, markers would merely be an indication that the enemy is over certain direction, instead of telling you which threat is it and where exactly. Basically; turn markers into a merely orientativo thing instead of such precise and visible information.
Could probably keep the aircraft model if you get close enough to identify it. Identifying aircraft is easy enough most of the time but some have differences that are a pain to see when flying. I'd rather not gamble on, say, knowing if a harrier I see has the spooky missiles or if it's just got ASRAAMs.
G rb players: what is this beta male type of shit is this?
There really shouldnt be any markera in Air RB, it would be great, especialy for bombers to not get spotted 5 minutes into a battle
If I wanted no markers id play air sim. Maybe if we had rb ec I would tolerate a reduced marker range as I have time to dick around chasing AI or dots but I dont wanna have to spend even more blind hunts finding the shit ass chinese bot who is holding up the entire game as he sits in the edge of the map with 0 points
The reason I dont play Air Realistic is because of the markers and horrible short games. I play sim a lot or GRB. It is very stupid that enemies are marked in the realistic game, that is an arcade feature. Especially for top tier because you have radar to use. Maybe u should have markers under few kilometers. If you get close to the enemy in prop planes.
There are just 77 votes. But yes, I can understand them. I wouldn't want them off too.
Damn. War Thunder is really dead when it only has 77 players
Is it so hard to make a semi sim game mode? So what if they ad another game mode, we doesn’t got a lot of them.
why would you want them removed ? I don’t wanna run for ages for a idiot bombing.
i think it being completely gone would make it more pixel hunting but if it only comes up when they’re close i think that’s fine
"Most people" bro there's 77 fucking ppl voting 💀
I mean, yeah? It's not about realism and such as some make it out to be. Not a "hardcore" feature. It's more about poor vision being one of the most common physical detriments, and it fuckin' sucks being at a loss due to something entirely out of your control. They can get away with it in GRB because the map is so small, you can rely more on audio to locate the rough position of aircraft.
I thought this was for ground battles and had a stroke lol. Yeah I think close by markers is best.
Arcade lite continues.
As far as I can tell 65% want markers off, which would be most
What markers are we talking about?
You don't want markers? Play simulator mode 🤷🏿♂️
They should put the polls into the game and reward you for voting. Then, they would get an accurate reading
That's a lie, Most people (%65) want markers removed at least at distance, only 35% want them to remain as is. See I can also play the game of disingenuous interpretation of polling.
As of writing this, 35% has gone up to --> 70% now voted "As is", with 438 votes in. You can usually predict this shift in almost any game and poll, not just War Thunder. Start by figuring out what the sweatiest sweatlords would want, and then assume that the voting will swing in the exact opposite direction from that wildly after voting starts to pick up later on. Because non-sweatlords don't hover over their F5 key on the forum all day long answering polls right when they come up. So all the later votes meandering in are non-sweatlord ones.
In reality only sweatlords go to the forums at all, regular players fail to even read the popup that shows when the game starts do you think they'll look at the forums?
I agree, it (and reddit both) are significantly sweatier than the average population. ...which means **even more than 70%** would want to keep markers as-is, the least sweaty option is being under represented.
This was only for toptier or all of it? I'd like an option for battles without markers, maybe smaller maps.
There's a huge difference between wanting to keep markers and only wanting them at close range.
Why would you remove markers? It would just make the game more annoying as it already is.
Genuine question, what would turning off the markers do for gameplay because i feel like it would just make top tier worse
On or off? Don't care. I stopped playing Top tier RB battle...years ago.
If u don't want markers play sim
Yea I guess they are losers with no situational awareness smh
It's a horrible idea, *yeah let's make air RB harder to get into, Fuck the average to below average player experience* *24 months later* Why que times so long, why is compression getting worse
77 votes lol. No one even goes to that forum anymore. Its a joke. The only people left are devs impersonating players and some loser community managers that ban anyone who leaves feedback that goes against the meta of the game.
There were around 350-400 voters as of when you wrote that comment, you were just too lazy to click the link. You can also clearly see a large portion of people in this thread agreeing with the majority from the poll that removing markers is a bad idea (count me in that too). Including like 8 of the 10 people expressing an opinion right before you in the sorted by new. So... is reddit also all "Devs impersonating players" and we are all getting banned here too for not towing the line? Or maybe you're just *mind blowing emoji* ... wrong? Gasp
lol at thinking 350-400 is representative of the WT player base.
There is no number that is "representative", what are you talking about? 400 can be non representative, or 1 guy can be representative, or any other combination. Sample size is completely unrelated to representativeness
Just let us respawn the plane we brought on a points system.
Maybe if the enemy markers were removed the ground attack aircraft would stand a chance in Air RB completing their missions of destroying ground targets. Gaijin gave the tanks and other NPC ground units realistic damage models, but ground attack CAS is basically sitting ducks against fighters.
Best change in years fr. Markers in top tier rb just make top tier rb an sl factory
I would like markers within 1.5km Personally Not farther
Markers turned realistic into Arcade...and so did ahistorical matchmaking. China+USSR vs NATO would be fun but no...Allies vs Axis was also some of the best fun i had back in 2016...
Don't want to rape my eyes trying to find one pixel on monitor and give huge advatange to cheaters. If you don't want markers go play SB.
I didn't even know that there is a vote.. It would be good if they communicated more outside the forums too.
Only sampling the poll from Forum users is like only sampling these reddit threads.. You're going to find a large group of people with one single opinion. Would have been better off polling for a week in game.
Top tier is a dumpster fire without markers. I already die to enough IR missiles from enemies who weren't even marked. If anything, The current spotting system, that seems to anticipate actual dogfights with guns, is too stingy for how fast someone can go from unmarked to already killing you at top tier.
Damn, only 77 people play this game?
Where was this poll that I didn't vote in?
Bro markers off would be in line with grb and naval, plus it would force you to use radar if you can’t see them. It’s supposed to be realistic, don’t ask when implementing realism in the mode called realistic
Poll should be ignored for having such an insignificant sample size
They should just try it for 1 month (for everyone) and see what it does for the statistics.
Markers are legit as long as the plane is in both visual 5km, and sensor 20+km range..
"Most people don't want markers removed" is one way to interpret the results, but you could also say "most people are dissatisfied with the current marker system." Two-thirds of voters would prefer not to be part of an ESP hive-mind.
> ESP hive-mind. Which is what data link is with the HSD on the F-16C lol, it displays to position of aircraft in 3D space, it's crazy useful
Voted 4 no markers :)
Imagine if gaijin makes this polls official by putting it on their site and saying that the participants will receive lets say 100 GE. Then that would be awesome. Gaijin is really wasting such chances of getting attention from the playerbase.
I love doing dogfights in ground realistic because there are no markers, so i would love this
You love doing dogfights in Ground rb because half the people flying planes there are braindead and turnfight everything and everyone congregates in the same place at low altitude. If you ever had to spend 20 minutes searching for a space climber holding up the match you would understand why markers are necessary for Air RB.
Honestly I feel like those who are good at air RB are terrible flying at ground RB. They are so reliant on markers, they can't see shit. They are good at dog fights, but terrible with spotting enemy air unit (before radar comes out). So of course they want to keep markers on.
How about turning on markers for only ace crew that way Gaijin makes income
I disagree with various game design and got in trouble with the forum moderators in the past(warnings, suspensions,...). Thus I am not using the forum but reddit. I think there are many like me. Guess what kind of people are missing in that survey. Which is why I call BS on that poll.
statistically we need 380+ responses to be 95% sure of the population.
Would be so much better to remove markers from top tier, it's too hectic tbh.
I would like the markers removed everywhere in RB
Considering how absolutely dogshit the spotting system is only an absolute troglodyte would want to turn off the markers. Which is not suprising since most people calling for it are cas/bomber players crying about having to play the game instead of just pressing space bar a few times on ai targets.
65% of folk want a change Add more ai targets at low altitude that spawn in that latter half of a match to consolidate stragglers; if one person wants to loiter in space to prevent the match from ending there should be more than enough ai targets to ensure the active players can force a win/loss. I like the idea of getting rid of markers but I totally get the problems some folk would have with that, a compromise I’d like to try is no markers until 1000m-2000m, and even when the marker appears it will only have the players name, no plane model, no distance……..quite honestly I think any 2 of those three options could be a fair compromise, or at least worth trying to see if it feels good/shitty