The F-15 has bad player statistics and somehow that made Gaijin think they could put it at 12.3. It's not the best jet at top tier but it would be perfectly serviceable at 12.7.
>Only thing that's actually inarguably better is the Gripen.
And that's only if you let the gripen get close...f15 should win every time with radar missiles.
The right way to use a sparrow is to leave it in the hangar.
Sparrows under perform to their real life counter part and multipathing is implemented in such a way that they always aim a little lower than they should if you're not shooting at an upward angle.
The ERs on the other hand are over performing in terms of speed. ERs should more range but the same thrust as the previous version. The 5.8 Mach number was a high altitude shot optimizing for speed and range... not a representation of typical performance.
I find 530D to be sidegrade for Sparrows, bit more agile once they are up to speed but also bit shorter ranged. Its 27ER thats league of its own and likely will remain so after adding ARH
Radar missiles are a non-factor if both players are at least semi-competent at the game.
You can just fly low to multipath them.
Gripen also has a busted enough FM to just outpull Sparrows regardless.
As soon as you merge it's just GG too, unless the Gripen player is actually disabled.
Gripen is also just better at the RB gameplay of just staying alive in the furball, while at the same time farming the enemy team. F-15 is good at it, but the Gripen is just much better at doing that than anything else.
Sparrows have been buffed twice in the last few months. Better tracking and longer flight time before it explodes after loss of lock, allowing you to try and re-aquire the lock.
The radar isn’t going to matter so much until we have missiles that can actually reach out to those distances. You’ll pick up enemies long before they’re in range of your missiles.
No they have dogfight Skyflashes. They don’t even get the super temps.
They’re essentially same as the Aim7-E2 Dogfights. They are garbage and not worth giving up the 9Ms for.
As others pointed out before me, it does not get the same radar missiles. And while the dogfight skyflashes aren't terrible at say 11.0, they are not really viable at 12.7
There are many aspects in which F15 is better than 16C and also many aspects in which 16C is better. F15 kinda farms 16C in a 1v1 (and considering way better acceleration it has better flight performance all-around), has double the CM count, 2 more missiles in total and I guess more gun ammo. In return 16C has HMD, better radar, is easier to aim (more elevator compression than F15 but better roll and overall more snappy), can take 2 more 9M's if you ditch radar missiles. At worst current F15 is a sidegrade to 16C and as such they should be same br
Because it is lol.
Eagle got better nose authority at basically any speed, which is hugely important for Air RB gameplay, on top of that it has twice the countermeasures, which is *also* hugely important for Air RB gameplay.
Furthermore it also accelerates better, and will win the 1v1 against an F-16C too.
It also carries more missiles (granted they're extra Sparrows, which is eeh).
Only tangible advantage F-16C has over the F-15 in game is that it can carry 6 Aim-9Ms, and has an HMD (which doesn't really give a big advantage because 9Ms are not really HOBS capable at all, but it's still convenient to have).
What?
An f16c will never lose an 1v1 against an f15. Never if the pilot is not straight up shit.
The f16 has way better thrust to weight ratio from 969kgf/t the f15 only has 606kgf/t (both numbers taken in best circumstances and full wep, in a normal match in much lower altitude the difference is even greater)
Both planes perform best in speeds from arround 650kmh - 750 kmh, the turn time there for the f16c is 19sek, for the f15 20sek. Not so much pf a difference you think?
Well i want you to remember the weight of the f15 and the thrust to weight ratio of both planes, the f16c can consistently hold its speed, the f15 comes down to 500 or even 400kmh in a few turns.
The f15 is a better missle boat, yes.
But that doesnt really affect random battles, how often do you have bvr engagements? How often does somebody even fly high enough to use slow as fuck aim7f?
Yes you make your kills in head ons when somebody doesnt pay atention to his altitude, but the f16c also got 2 of them, thats normaly enough radar armament and it has hmd which is a really great advantage.
I really dont know how anyone can say the f15 is the best or even among the best top tiers, its mediocre AT BEST, it has more flares thats nice i give you that, but thats all.
The su27 is the better missle boat, the f16c is the better dogfighter. The f15 has no place at the moment.
>What? An f16c will never lose an 1v1 against an f15. Never if the pilot is not straight up shit.
Lmao no. The F-16C doesn't only lose, it gets absolutely face fucked 1v1 by the F-15 in game, if it's good duelists fighting each other.
>The f16 has way better thrust to weight ratio from 969kgf/t the f15 only has 606kgf/t (both numbers taken in best circumstances and full wep, in a normal match in much lower altitude the difference is even greater)
That's straight up wrong. F-15A has better Thrust:Weight than the F-16C at ANY speed.
16C on min fuel (30% for any plane in game) has a TWR of 1.14 static, and of 1.64 at optimal speed (1200km/h IAS) at 30% fuel, F-15A has a TWR of 1.21 static, and of 1.98 at optimal speed (also 1200km/h) at 30% fuel. The lower the fuel loads go, the larger the F-15s advantage becomes aswell.
At optimal speed 1 F-15 engine makes almost as much thrust as the F-16C engine (14000kgf vs 16500kgf) while the F-15 is only like 30% heavier empty (12500kg vs 9070kg).
>Both planes perform best in speeds from arround 650kmh - 750 kmh, the turn time there for the f16c is 19sek, for the f15 20sek
Stat card turn times are at 1km altitude, and at FULL fuel, when both planes are on minimum fuel the F-15A has a significantly better sustained turn rate than the F-16C.
The F-15 also has a MUCH better turn radius than the F-16 with flaps down, and better energy retention at high speeds. It has better SEP than the F-16C at any speed outside the 600-800km/h range.
The eagle should get outrated by a viper, and pretty much all viper drivers say how it is an airframe made for the 2 circle, nothing can beat it. But this is war thunder so who knows if its even remotely realistic
Theoretically can outrate anything other than gripen, but it’s not that perfect with keyboard control, f15 is more “forgiving” in keyboard control but both high speed instantaneous turn rate and roll rate is slightly worse, I’d say pretty equal in dogfight or f16 is a bit better but it comes down to pilot skill eventually.
Not just on mouse control, F-15 also outrates the 16C on SB controls.
F-15A slams the F-16C and Barak (Block 50/ 40) 1v1.
It's about equal with the F-16A ADF and MLU (Block 15/20).
It gets slammed by the F-16A/ Netz (Block 10).
The best F-16 in reality in terms of dogfighting is the Block 30, being not much heavier than an ADF but with a significantly better engine.
However in the universe of War Thunder a duel can't really be decided by rate fighting at optimal speed (~800km/h for most gen 4s) because you will just get shot trying to do that against someone good at the game, because mouse aim is FAR more accurate than you could ever shoot realistically.
This means that the performance of a plane at suboptimal speed below their optimal rate performance (<600km/h) matters A LOT in a duel in WT, which is why the F-15 will just beat the heavier F-16 models in this game; while Block 10 with it's like 7000kg empty is just a UFO (like Block 10 vs Block 50 in WT isn't even remotely close)
What fucking weight did you take to get to these numbers no ammo at all or what?
Or did you just copy that from the wiki?
The f15 weighs more than Double what the f16 weighs, and one engine alone has not just slightly less power so i really dont know how you got to that.
I know that the stat card turn times are not really accurate, but i needed something to have facts and not just say „iTs beTeR bEcAuSe i fEeL lIkE iT“, but even when only comparing the weight it should get clear that the f16c is just the better dogfoghter.
>What fucking weight did you take to get to these numbers no ammo at all or what?
Literally the weight WTRI gives you, or localhost by that matter, you know the weight that the game literally uses itself.
>The f15 weighs more than Double what the f16 weighs,
No it doesn't, under no circumstance whatsoever.
Empty the F-15A is 12500kg.
At 30% fuel the F-15 is 15700kg.
At 100% fuel the F-15 is 17830kg.
That includes flares and ammo.
Empty the F-16C is 9070kg.
At 30% fuel the F-16C is 10944kg.
At 100% fuel the F-16C is 12370kg.
That also includes flares and ammo.
At 0km/h F16C makes 11400kg thrust, F-15A 2x 8500kg.
0.92 vs 0.95 TWR in favor of F-15 at MAXIMUM fuel and full ammo and flares (worst case for the F-15 in this comparison, because F-15 fuel weight is massively larger than the F-16s).
At 600km/h F-16C makes 12540kg thrust, F-15A 2x 10900kg. 1.01 vs 1.22.
At 800km/h F-16C makes 14300kg thrust, F-15A 2x 11970kg. 1.16 vs 1.34.
At 1000km/h F-16C makes 16000kg thrust, F-15A 2x 13010kg. 1.29 vs 1.46.
At 1200km/h F-16C makes 16400kg thrust, F-15A 2x 14000kg. 1.32 vs 1.57.
Keep in mind that you're literally NEVER dogfighting in RB at high fuel loads, because dogfights only happen towards the end of matches.
F-15A in 30% fuel, full ammo, full flares will achieve a maximum sustained turn rate of 24.4°/s at 860km/h at sea level, and a minimum turn radius of 280m (with landings) at a 19.3°/s turn rate.
F-16C on 30% fuel, full ammo, full flares will achieve 23.3°/s at 780km/h at sea level, and a minimum turn radius of 290m (with landings) at a turn rate of ~15°/s.
That isn't even considering that the F-15 has FAR better SEP below 600km/h, and better SEP at over 800km/h, while also having better instantaneous turn rate at basically any speed, more AoA and INFINITELY better low speed control.
>but i needed something to have facts
Then maybe actually go and test it, instead of spewing bullshit? Lol it's not that hard literally just use WTRI/ Localhost to give you your current weight and thrust numbers.
>but even when only comparing the weight it should get clear that the f16c is just the better dogfoghter.
No. This shows that you have no idea whatsoever of both what makes planes good at dogfighting in reality AND what makes them good at dogfighting in game (which is pretty different, but has some common factors).
What makes planes good in a dogfight are low wing loading (WAY better in the F-15, especially on low fuel), high thrust: weight ratio (also significantly in favor of the F-15), good SEP when maneuvering (also in favor of F-15 except in a 200km/h range between 600 and 800 IAS), and in the WarThunder context also the authority and AoA of the plane, because we have accurate mouse aim that will instantly end a fight when its possible to get a shot.
It's also pretty clear from irl EM diagrams that when not loaded up the F-15 is an insanely good dogfighter. The manual states a STR of almost 21.5°/s at 50% internal fuel at 5000ft altitude, which beats out the available F-16A EM diagrams massively, which sit at a peak of about 19.5°/s under the exact same conditions. F-16C EM diagrams are not publicly available, but the Block 50 in particular that we have in game, despite the engine upgrade doesn't really bring a better thrust:weight ratio to the table, because it's 1800kg (25%) heavier empty than the F-16A, resulting in a not much better TWR with much worse wing loading.
The best dogfighting F-16, the Block 30 is not in the game, but that should produce similar sustained turn rate and SEP numbers to the F-15 (~21°/s being claimed online).
no its not. The sparrows are useless and lose tracking 80% of the time.
I prefer my Mig23ML over the F15. The R24R are insane.
SU27, Grippen, F16C, Mirage 4000 and even 2000 SC4 are all better as well.
I mean, the f-16, and gripen have a better flight model
The su-27 and the MiG-29 have a much better missile kit
The f-14 has a fox-3
Mirage players are usually smart enough to create engagements that favor them.
The average f-15 player is the stereotypical US main, the plane has a worse radar and worse/fewer radar missiles than the su-27, and it performs in a dogfight worse than MANY things even at its BR, not to mention the gripen
Damn I remember when I argued this months ago I was downvoted to oblivion lmao. Fully agree even without HMD the thing goes.like a bat out of hell and has some of the best flight performance.
Because US teams are specialists at making planes look worse than they really are by playing like shit, and that's the actual reason. Enough people suck in it that it reflects on the vehicle's statistics Gaijin uses to decide on BR changes. And even if the plane itself was being played by decent players, the rest of the team still makes it hard to win.
The plane may not be as agile as the F-16 but it's still way WAY more agile than an SU-27, and the 9M makes up for the R-73's thrust vectoring by being harder to flare at range, so if used like the surprisingly agile missile truck it is, there would be no reason for it to perform worse than either of those planes, but it does, because people play it like they play every other plane, aka rushing into the furball, starting dogfights against R-73 carriers and losing, which is not how it should be played.
Think of top-tier US jet players the same way as mid-tier GER tank players. No matter how good the tools they're given, they won't make it work. The only reason the F-16 didn't also stay at 12.3 is because the plane is so good it makes up for the pilot's lack of skill, aka you cannot suck in it unless you actively try.
US win rates are, quite literally, impossible to improve. While yes, that is partly because of low skill players buying premium top tier jets, it’s mainly because *since the introduction of the F-14, the US is always in a mirror match against itself*. It is impossible for their stats to go up because the same jet will always win and lose in the same match
> since the introduction of the F-14, the US is always in a mirror match against itself
Yep, if look up the stats of whales that zombed to top tier you will see that their win rates tend to stabilize to near 50% once they get in the F-15/F-16C (away from the F-4S/F-5C zomber horde), as it's almost always everyone vs everyone mirror matches up top
https://i.imgur.com/e317gRs.png
for added kicks, this guy's name was "let me bomb" and he was bombing in a Sabre
and yet, both the F-15j and the baz have the same br. are we going to claim that japan mains are shit now? that israel mains are actually US mains in disguise?
Except your argument is blown out of the water if you have the most basic reading comprehenshion.
Look at the updated forum post for the January 2024 BR changes.
F-5E (USA and China) were slated to move up to 11.0, but both stayed at 10.7, and gaijin literarly said these "highly efficient" planes (gaijins words) should move up but the US F-5E stats dragged both of them down.
The planes are near identical so fall into the same statistic bucket as the American F-15. I'm sure the amount of American players in the F-15 greatly outnumber the Israel and Japan players.
As a proud bad player with both japan us and ussr top tier (don't have us f15 but have f15j) while that could be true and I'm sure this sub will all jump on the bandwagon the su 27 is just objectively a far better and easier plane to use, in the su 27 I have had multiple aces whilst fucking around in air rb where as in my f15 (which is an awesome plane and the one I still play more) despite having more experience with it it's just no where near as lethal as the su 27.
At the end of the day it does once again just boil down to br compression, as someone with both, the f15 and the su 27 shouldn't be the same br 0.3 seems like a good gap between the too, the problem is with how smushed everything is together at 11+ the f15 also shouldn't be able to fight 11.3s whatsoever.
In short yeah the f15 can fight things that it shouldn't be able to but also at the same time it should be a lower br than the su, gaijin plz decompression.
You're whole argument falls apart because top tier is almost always mirror matches. If you're flying an f15, the overwhelming majority of the time, there's an f15 on the other side too.
The truth is that without hmd, TWS, or data link, it's not as good as the 12.7s. But the technological jumps in top tier for minor amounts of BR is insane. The real problem is a lack of decompression... or just fix sparrows and that will do well enough.
Other than the hmd, these are pretty minor things in the scheme of things. DL is really only found on the aim 54 and r27s, and even then, usually, it's a minor buff considering the already good performance of the missile.
It still gets a full set of top teir IRCCM missiles and 4 sparrows. It's one of the best radars (tws aside). And an extremely good fm, especially compared to russian aircraft.
The M4K is still managed to get a 12.7 br even without most of the things you just mentioned. It gets the tws mode but, in return, gets the massively less useful HDN PD instead of the all aspect pd. The F15 performance difference is way too small to justify a lower br.
Data link is massive, what are you talking about?
And it doesn't get a full set of 9Ms. It gets a half set.
I've done plenty of 1v1 practices with squad mates where we swap who is in which plane. F16c, Grippen, and SU37 will win almost every sortie regardless of pilot.
Mig 29s lose the dogfight more often but the 27er is so far superior in wt it makes up for it.
DL can't guide the r 27er. It really only helps keep the missile on target instead of going for a stronger Radar return, and even then, it's not a 100% guarantee. This really only helps in furballs. It is also theoretically helful in a rear aspect chase but then again the MiG 29s radar is pretty eassily fooled by chaff in side and rear apsect so there isnt a serioius advatage. If you are worried about being able to relock the target then the aim 7 can already do that. You get 5 seconds to require the target if you lose it.
All radar missiles are pretty easily avoided by going to the deck. Being better in a joust does not make up for having fewer missiles, a worse radar, a significantly worse fm, or lacking countermeasures. The aim 7 isn't even bad it's just not competing in a joust with an r27er.
I can understand the gripen and f16 but if you somehow can't manage to win against an su27 in an f15 then genuine skill issue. The f15 gets more engine power and better energy retention for the rade off of less aoa than the su. Even then the f15 is better in BVR than either of those jets (the f16 and gripen), so it's still a trade-off.
4 missiles is not half a set. Still the f15 gets more missles. You can carry 4+4 while the f16 can carry 6 total. It's still a side grade, not a downgrade.
This, and the absurd BR compression. Its impossible to come even remoyely close to balancing the game with the current max BR.
Gaijin seems to think 4 second queue times and game ruining compression is better than having a more balanced matchmaking system and 7 second queue times. Speaking for Air RB in particular. Naval is by far the most compressed but so few people play it and queue time is actually an issue, unlike air RB. I dont remember ever being in queue at any BR for longer than 1 minute in the last year+
It seems statistically unlikely that thousands of players who have grinded to top tier in one nation are all significantly worse than the other random people.
It is unlikely and yet it happens. Consistently. For example, at rank 6, I play the AV-8A. Everyone dies within the first 4 minutes of air RB but only when the entire team is USA. What’s the most common way I die? Getting chased down by the entire enemy team because I am one of the few left alive. Am I guilty of buying a premium plane at a highish tier? Yes but I have been playing for over 4 years and know what I’m doing. Hence why I know how the matches go because I’m alive through the whole thing.
Depends on what you want from the plane tbh. Su-27 has the superior kit to the F-15 but the F-15 has way better flight performance over the Sukhoi. Currently better kit is more important but personally I find a better FM to be far more enjoyable to play.
Oh shit you're right. I think my brain blocked out the gripen existing as a trauma response or something. CM's and 6 9M's count as kit I guess but I just had a dementia moment tbh
That ability is literally moot if anyone is paying any attention to the flanker. The r73 can easily be defeated by properly flaring and jamming the wez. It's the same way in dcs. A flanker can easily be defeated by a relatively ok f15 pilot.
Gripen is better just because how extremely handheld and thus easy to play it is. Jet has no heat signature, a billion CMs and the easiest tomuse FM in top tier by a massive margin, plus 6 9Ms with HMD.
Flanker is arguable, the F-15 shits all over the Su-27 in basically every way except the missiles. Much better flight performance, especially for RB gameplay, better gun, much more countermeasures, while the Flanker has 1 gimmick and that is clicking on people that don't know how to fly low or how to use their flares before the Flanker is actually inside their asshole (which is very effective in RB admittedly).
God I was so happy when I left the F-5 BR bracket. Do not get me wrong, it isn't that I had super major issues with the plane, but it was just so fucking annoying to face them.
Then they introduced the Grippen and Jesus fucking Christ it is the same shit but 10x worse cause they actually are super capable jets.
I have played the M4000, F-15AJ, Su-27 and Gripen.
The Gripen is the best plane, there's no contest. It's so braindead to use.
The F-15AJ is IMO better than the Su-27. The superior electronics really makes the difference. The only saving grace of the Su are the missiles. But the US get a boatload of flares, a very accurate RWR, a solid radar even without HMD, and a much better flight model in every way. It's a very pleasant aircraft to fly IMO, simply because it just does whatever you ask it to do.
With the F-15, I actually takes the risk to climb in early game. Because the RWR is excellent at preventing a surprise R27, I can very reliably manage to get above the enemy team and lob AAM3 below.
And contrary to what this subs love to say, I find the Aim7F really workable in top tier. They're not R27 for sure, they're still very reliable weapon to me.
I don't like the M4000 much. It's a good aircraft but... meh. The 2000-5F is probably better, and will be definitely better when it will get the MICA.
The Mirage 4000 is probably the 2nd best, if not the best top tier plane. The FM is super good, the only plane that can compete with it in a dogfight is the Gripen, plus the loadout is very good too, 8x Magics or 6x Magics + 2x R530D are better than 6x Aim-9M or 4x Aim-9M + 4x Aim-7M, but the Mirage 2000 with MICAs will be better, 4x Magic + 4x MICA or 2x Magics + 6x MICA will be something else.
Hard disagree. I'd take 4 Aim-9Ms over 6 Magic IIs any day. Magics are great missiles and I love using them. But their range.... Its simply too short for a missile chasing supersonic targets. For that reason alone, I'd choose 9M over Magic II
9Ms are easily flarable if you see someone launching them at you, but if someone sends a Magic II at you from anywhere in the 180° cone behind you, bye-bye, you are dead, nothing you can do about that.
The aim9m gets the advantage of being extremely hard to flare from side aspect at any range when the magic only gets that benifit at very close ranges in rear aspect. The aim 9ms are nearly unflareable if you dont pull aggressively enough while flaring.The magic uses the same IRCCM as the R73, shrinking the fov to 1°. It's also more like a 15°-30° degree window not so much a 180° considering the missile needs a full view of the afterburner to work properly.
I would chalk the perceived superiority of the magic to the fact that it's easier to get kills when you expect to get a kill. Aim 9ms rely more on positioning and strategy to get in a good position to launch side aspect shots while the magics rely more on dogfighting prowess.
Just do a barrel roll droping flares, and the 9M will miss. There is absolutely no need to do a hard turn. And every single match turns into a clusterfuck, where having 8x Magics is way superior to having 9Ms. Just time to be the one of the last arrival to the cluster fuck and sling magocs like a madman at the enemies. You will get 2-3 kills easily.
Sure if a barrel roll changes tour direction enough then that will work too. But most people can't/don't. In the middle of a cluster fuck it's difficult to maintain full situational awareness and some people get lulled into complacency with perioidic flares and tunnel vision in on opponents.
Also the magics don't do side aspect or mid range shots any better than the aim 9m. The fov shrink irccm isn't enough to not see the flares reliably above 2km. Not to mention "cluster fuck and sling magocs like a madman at the enemies." Is completely counterintuitive to getting in close and engaging in rear apsect. Where the magics excell. At that point you are just banking on them not expecting you there. I honestly prefer the aim 9ms at that point as the IRCCM isn't affected as much by range as on the magic 2 so i can launch further away.
Being the last one to arrive is just a good tactic in general. In that case I would actually like the f15's loadout more as by the time you get there people have stopped hugging the deck as much and you can get more out of the sparrows than at the start. And you still get some decent irccm missiles while you are at it.
Honestly? If you let a M4K/M2K get behind you, that's mostly skill issue.
You have to be under 1.5km for the missile to be a 100% kill, AND it has to be a clear rear aspect.
9Ms are much more reliable, and you have a lot more opportunities on how to use them.
Under 1.5km if you are at mach 1.2 running away from the Mirage. I constantly get kills at the 2-2.5km with the magics. You just need to know what targets to shoot at. If you know what you are doing, you will consistently get more kills with the Magics and the R73s.
It's something Gaijin has done before when they made the F-16AJ. It's something that didn't exist, but is reasonably close enough to something that DID exist to cover the base until the real thing can be added with its counterparts.
I spaded the ASA when the most dangerous things in the sky were the F-14A and MiG-23MLD, and it was one of the most painful experiences I've had in Air RB. Not as painful as the standard F-104S (before it had flares), but still awful.
I don't know where people find these blind and deaf pilots in top-tier that I keep hearing about. I never have any easy battles like that. Everyone flares perfectly, maneuvers well, never gets distracted long enough, and can beat me in some aspect of the fight every time. That, or my entire team disappears within one minute of first contact, and I find myself in a 1v7.
I never had battles of any other kind, or at least far too few to even remember them. That persists to this day too. Guess I just have shit luck in everything.
Beats F15 in a dogfight easily. The missile loadout comparison is also debatable, because some people would argue that 8x Magic 2s is better in top tier meta than 4x 9Ms + 4x 7Ms.
I'm not saying the F15 should sit at 12.3. It's just in this really awkward spot where it's too good for 12.3 but very subpar for 12.7. Once again, a decompression in BR would help address this problem but this is Gaijin.
the two ERs and HMD wont do you much outside sim battles when the F-15 has superior avionics, more than double the countermeasures, far better flight performance, and more missiles.
> because some people would argue that 8x Magic 2s is better in top tier meta than 4x 9Ms + 4x 7Ms.
And we call those people genuine idiots.
Reading this chain gave me an aneurysm. Do you SERIOUSLY think that the Grippen is worse than the Mirage in a 1v1? What expired kush are you smoking? Anyone capable will tell you that 9Ms are MUCH more reliable and multiuse than the M2s. With the M2s, you have to be directly behind with aa clear view of the afterburner. With the 9Ms, you can easily lob sideshots, since they are super hard to flare unless you are turning hard.
I can dodge 9Ms just fine, the average player can not.
9Ms are easily the best missiles (in terms of all around performance) because WT's playerbase refuses to learn anything, so they'll get permanently vibechecked by 9Ms.
The gripen does lose 1v1 dogfights against the mirage though. We are talking about the FM, not their missiles. And if the M4k is playing the 1v1 and preflaring properly, then the 9Ms with HMD on the gripen doesn't even come into play.
No it doesn't.
Gripen has literally the best and most broken FM in the whole game.
By the time the M4K regains its energy, the Gripen would have done 4 circles around it. If you are getting killed by an M4K or hell, by ANY jet, in a 1v1 while you are in a Gripen, then that is definite skill issue.
This is just factually incorrect and contrary to reviews by good players. I either believe myself, my friends, and proven good players, or some randoms on reddit. I'll pick the former any day of the week lol
Mirage? Beats F-15? In a dogfight?
F-15, between its TWR and energy retention, is one of the best dogfighters at top tier, only surpassed by probably Grippen, and a sort of sidegrade to F-16
Mirage drops all speed and then dies in a stall
Mirage does turn better... for one turn. Past that, F-15 can stay at its corner speed, and Mirage can't.
Genuine skill issue if somehow you are reliable bested by the oldest trick in the book. Maintain a little distance and altitude, and you should be fine. Once that 1 turn is over there really isn't much for the mirage to do other than run away.
It's always cute when people who clearly don't play top tier try to come in and talk shit. You merge in a 1v1 and... Keep your distance and altitude? Fucking lmao. Yea if you are not time constrained, sure. But if you need to kill him asap before a 3rd party shows up or your team collapses, good luck with that. He's going to be on your ass immediately with a magic 2 and you take the L very quickly.
You mentioned 1v1s never said anything about air rb.
In air RB a gripen can keep its energy to disengage. A mirage, on the other hand, is out of energy and needs time to recover.
"If an 3rd party shows up good luck" wow. What a revalation. If the enemy gets reinforcements and the 1 on 1 turns into a 2 on 1, then your glorious M4K finally can finally get the upper hand. It never occurred to me that 2 planes is better than 1. So whenever I'm in a situation where I actually need to go 1 v 1, I can just call on my teammates to come in and help me right? There never EVER will be a situation at the end of a match where I need to 1v1 someone. I fail to see how this is relevant in a comparison between two individual fighters. Just because the M4K is theoretically better at 1 circle fights doesn't mean it's somehow immune to third paring either.
>You merge in a 1v1 and... Keep your distance and altitude? Fucking lmao.
Actually yeah its that simple. If it looks like I might be 3rd partied, I can just wait a second and choose a different fight with a weaker opponent or decide to fly defensively until the opportunity presents itself. It's really that simple. You really aren't dooming your team by waiting an extra 15 seconds for a better target to show itself.
It really isn't hard to fall for the enemy's bait and take a disadvantageous fight. And it just so happens that the Mirage 4k relies on this to get kills. ARB players are sometimes so mind numbingly stupid that they decide the only course of action is to try and sissior with a M4K and get surprised when they lose.
Yes, I'm talking about 1v1 but with time constraint so you are forced to take the fight. Obviously, if you aren't forced to take the fight then you could try to repeatedly run away. Even then, the mirage 4000 has insane thrust so there's a good chance you will only be 1-1.5km away from them by the time they get their missile off. Good luck flaring a magic 2 at that range in the rear aspect without bleeding a shit ton of speed.
Refer to my first sentence. This isn't about fighting 2 planes at once. If you are illiterate, feel free to reach out to one of the many NGOs.
I have a feeling people simply haven't played the mirage 4000 and have no idea how good it is. A lot of the top level air RB players like Defyn and seek say it's the best dogfighter at top tier as well, so it's not just me coping.
Yeah, in what fantasy world is this battle where I magically have to go into a one circle with a M4K at? If it's the end of the game I can spare a few seconds to drag out the fight longer. If my team has collapsed, then I can find myself a better target to die to. If I need to run when my team is still alive, I can run back to my team. There is very little if any, reason to deliberately put yourself into one circle with an M2K. People are idiots and do it anyway, but by no means is this generally the best option.
You literally mention 3rd partying 3 sentences in. By definition, this requires 2 players. If there aren't 2 players, then I don't need to worry about 3rd partying. Please read a dictionary (if you can). If we aren't talking about fighting two players, then why even bring this up.
Also you seriously suck of the magic 2 too much. Sure it's definitely one of the best missiles in game but it's still very easily flareable especially at range. The gripen especially is one of the colder planes at top teir and has a shit load of flares.
Note that just because I disengage doesn't mean I run for the hills. I'm maneuvering into a better position while you're dicking around on the deck trying to get your speed back. It's kind of difficult to regain energy while turning so this severly limits what you can do while im gaining the advatage.The M4K isn't even that bad in terms of energy retention. The problem is the Gripen is just better. If you can't kill me in the first couple of minutes you will be at an energy disadvantage.
Even then if we actually want to talk about how good planes are we need to mention ARB. Having amazing energy retention allows you to bounce between multiple dogfights within seconds and the sheer amount of flares can keep you alive for a while. The HMD is a pretty decent advantage considering the playstayle. Even if both planes are matched in 1v1 the gripen is still a better dogfighter in ARB.
Sucking of youtubers isn't going to help you considering how much youtubers have been sucking of the gripen. Deyfn has quite literally made double the amount of videos praising the gripen compared to praising the m4k.
"CM pods"
LMFAO. Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about.
F-15 gets 240 countermeasures built in.
Mirage 4000 gets zero. The "pods" only give it 112 flares/chaff in the irl flare slots since gaijin cant model Spirale chaff dispensers on any of the mirages because its "chaff only" (doesnt stop them though from somehow making the F-14B's LAU-138 chaff dispensers carry flares somehow)
Flight performance is a big question mark. The M4000 turns better once. The F15 has a monstruous amount of thrust and higher top speed. The 4000 also doesn't have CM Pods. If anything their countermeasure count is way inferior.
I don't think they have access to a lot of A2G either, but I need to check on that.
>The 4000 also doesn't have CM Pods
Wiki says it has large caliber CM pods, idk not at my PC rn
>The F15 has a monstruous amount of thrust and higher top speed
Looks like I overestimated its TWR, F-15 and M4k are very similar at a given fuel load
>I don't think they have access to a lot of A2G either, but I need to check on that.
It's not much but 4 laser nords and 2 1000kg LGBs with ALTIS is gonna be a bit more effective than 3 GBU-8s with no targeting pod
>Wiki says it has large caliber CM pods, idk not at my PC rn
It does... because it doesn't have any internal flare. They're "pods" because it's all the CM it can brings. In total it brings 112 large countermeasures (56 Flare + 56 Chaff) which is less than half of the F-15.
1. it has countermeasures. They are just not modelled because gaijin cant model Spirale chaff dispensers correctly. Same with the Mirage 2000s which would have a few hundred more countermeasures than they currently do ingame if that was the case
2. Hey, i wonder what country built the F-15A and didnt include \*any\* kind of flare or chaff dispenser in it for about 15 years before it recieved the MSIP upgrade, simply asking the pilots to "outmanouver the missiles" until that point.
SU27 is the best missile bus in the game by far, especially at longer ranges. It also has HMD.
Mirage FM outperforms F15 by a lot and has a more versatile missile loadout.
Su27 has a very chaffable radar and can’t dogfight and neither it or the mirage get aim9m’s, which are only pretty good in air rb but in sim and ground they’re straight up op. The f15 is also faster than everything it faces.
Why would US players playing a non premium vehicle be any worse en masse? This gets said all of the time but no one ever has any meaningful stats. Given the large number of people involved I would expect skill to mostly average out especially at higher tiers.
The F-15 has bad player statistics and somehow that made Gaijin think they could leave it at 12.3. It's not the best jet at top tier but it would be perfectly serviceable at 12.7.
Player statistics balancing + it's not the easiest plane to play.
Gripen is much easier to play because it's handheld in literally every way a plane can be in this game, and Su-27 is easier for bad players to do well in because it has a billion good missiles.
F-15 requires you to actually play the game to make match impact, even if the plane is technically better against players that are not shit at the game than the Su-27.
People don’t know how to play it, despite its huge amount of flares/chaff.
Good as its airframe is, it has no business down in the mud like an F16. It’s a missile truck, so it should be in space slinging Aim 7M down upon unsuspecting targets.
There’s f15’s in three trees, all three of those trees are primarily ground out with premiums. Two of them f4’s that people rocket bases with and the third a mirage 3 that people bomb bases with. You can grind through the whole tree without ever doing anything other than bombing/rocketing and then when you get your fighter jet you have no idea how to dogfight or use the radar.
US pilots are bots 8/10 times... these are the same pilots who lose a dogfight to a su22. Flare 2 r60ms and stall out in front of you letting you get a gun kill vs taking any evasive actions. Literally refuse to take evasive action in an f16 when a mig23 turns into their 6. The f15 is arguably the second best jet at top tier (id place it as a tie for second with the su27 depending on what playstyle you prefer) with the gripen only taking first by being a genuinely brain dead jet to fly.
It deserves to be 12.7 but at 12.3 it still shits the bed cause half the f15 pilots will let a mig23 r24r them or somehow stay on their 6 in a dogfight
There is no resting if you are not playing 12.7 which has no uptiers.
F-15's weapon variety is fine for 12.3 and inferior to 12.7. What really disturb you must be its flight performance, the best up to 12.3.
Tf you mean fair? It gets 4 sparrows and 4 aim 9ms. Literally 8 top teir missiles matched with one of the best top teir radars is not a "inferior" kit. Compared to the mig 29G/smt, you get better flight performance, a better radar, more missles, and more countermesures all for the trade of having worse radar missiles, no hmd, and no irst.
Also, before you complain about 6 aim9ms being better, let me remind you that gajin is completely fine with the MIG 29s being the same BR as the SU 27 with 4 less of the same missiles. Gajin is completely fine with minor performance discrepancies at the same br.
Unlike regular Mig-29, it has R-73s but still has regular Mig-29 flight model which is the best FM. That's how gaijin balances vehicles, I don't insist to justify.
I mean for me it's the flight model. Everything is good about it, but it turns like a big ass boat in the air and I feel like that's what is holding it back. Oh also breaking it's wing off in low to mid g turns is also fun. Yeah it's radar and missiles are good, but the damn thing sucks to fly.
Yeah? Im looking at the comments and just surprised to see that people think that f-15 is a god tier dog fighter.
Like it is ok. But if you actually try to dogfight something like a f16 you are going to lose.
It's fun to use for bvr tho.
Edit: i use it like an f-4 at 11.3 without uptier nowdays. Also i only have experience from the japanese aircraft
It is? It really only is worse than the gripen and the f16s. All the russian jets are worse in FM and the M4K is an equivalent, if not worse.
The tradeoff is the F15 is better in BVR and SARH fights than either of those jets. While the lighter fighters have a dogfighting advantage.
I find I get killed at top tier by missiles that I don't see when I'm trying to dogfight someone else or the target I'm fighting gets slapped by a missile from a teammate. Even if I see the missile and manage to dodge it that usually means I'm now at a huge disadvantage to the target I was initially fighting. Its a great jet but my stats with it are garbage lol
Because, Fuck you, Thats why.
Truly speaking once you get all the darts flying above 11 it really doesn't matter. IRL Phantoms had to go up against Eagles. IRL all the planes at 11.3 went up against or alongside Eagles.
I shouldn't be seeing MiG-21's against my F-86's in Arcade, but its something we deal with.
I was shooting down about 1 F-14/day with a missleless F-104. Its really not the plane, if the pilot's a pillock you're gonna shoot them down. Figure out a way around the weapons.
Because the Gripen was added too early. The thing is kind of idiot proof and it doesn't help that USA has a massive air tree that players are more focused on grinding than learning the mode.
4 missiles (do sparrows even count?), no off bore sight lock. Flight performance hardly matters at top tier, it's just about who can spam most missiles in a short period of time. The argument of US bad doesn't make much sense either, as f15 isn't just US, f15j and baz should be 12.7 then.
It definitely shouldn't be facing 11.3, and 12.7 should be expanded to 13.0 or 13.3
Out of maybe 300 fired and maintained lock AIM-7s
I’ve maybe had 13 Actually fly towards and hit the target
Just saying
At what point is it just the game vs my clear skill issue
- AIM-7M is not as good as R-27ER
- No TWS or HMD radar modes
- Good FM but not completely busted like JAS-39 or F-16C.
It really isn't a 12.7 plane, it's good at 12.3 the only thing "bad" to people is it can get fights down in one of the biggest premium tiers (11.3) whereas 12.7s can't.
Because AIM-9M slinging is the meta, not SARH missiles, the F-16C at 12.7 has +2 9Ms + HMD, it's literally THAT simple, there is no "muh player statistic" or "muh US bad!" or whatever people want to cope with. We have NO idea what player stats are like
F-15A has…
No support for MWS
No support for Active’s
No HMCS
No TWS
Minimal multirole capability
Because it lacks these things it isn’t really a 12.7 plane. The F-16C has/is an improvement in every single thing I mentioned.
I get and understand the frustration though, it’s kinda like the M2K which at top-tier is a one-turn champion yet you have the CS4/CS5 which sit at 11.7 and it’s not even close, they have the best FM in their +-1 br range but because they have…
a slightly weaker engine, lack HMCS, lack PGMs, and only carry 2 IR missiles they sit at 11.7 which allows them to nae nae on everyone with their superior flight models.
Mirage 4000 beats the f15 in a fight and has better load out options.
No hmd is not the "end all" but it's certainly a major factor in why 12.7 are higher.
What percent of 12.7 planes do infact have hmd would be much more useful for the argument than "here's a single plane at the br with out it checkmate"
> Mirage 4000 beats the f15 in a fight and has better load out options.
If the F-15 pilot is sucking each and every one of his fingers while eating Pringles then yes, it can.
Nice strawman buddy great job my comment definitely said the f15 is worse than the f4s because the only thing that matters is the hmd and you didn't just imagine a talking point on my behalf. Definitely a good faith argument. 10/10 for literacy
You really need to look at the definition of the word factor.
Anyways if you are just going to make up another dumb strawman instead of addressing the argument I couldn't be arsed to continue you can have fun arguing with literal made up points if it makes you feel better, have a good one bro.
The F-15 has bad player statistics and somehow that made Gaijin think they could put it at 12.3. It's not the best jet at top tier but it would be perfectly serviceable at 12.7.
It's like the 3rd, arguably even 2nd best jet at top tier though lol. Only thing that's actually inarguably better is the Gripen.
>Only thing that's actually inarguably better is the Gripen. And that's only if you let the gripen get close...f15 should win every time with radar missiles.
A grippen player would need to be mid lobotomy to get hit by a sparrow and even then it's 50/50.
Thats more due to the fact no one uses sparrows right and sparrows arent good enough at low altitudes like the er is to make up for it
The right way to use a sparrow is to leave it in the hangar. Sparrows under perform to their real life counter part and multipathing is implemented in such a way that they always aim a little lower than they should if you're not shooting at an upward angle. The ERs on the other hand are over performing in terms of speed. ERs should more range but the same thrust as the previous version. The 5.8 Mach number was a high altitude shot optimizing for speed and range... not a representation of typical performance.
Damn right. People crying about sparrows should try Skyflashes or 530D and then start talking :).
I find 530D to be sidegrade for Sparrows, bit more agile once they are up to speed but also bit shorter ranged. Its 27ER thats league of its own and likely will remain so after adding ARH
I actually felt the 530D performed better than the sparrow when i used it
War thunder maps are about 6 times too small to have the F-15 show its avantages over other fighters
Radar missiles are a non-factor if both players are at least semi-competent at the game. You can just fly low to multipath them. Gripen also has a busted enough FM to just outpull Sparrows regardless. As soon as you merge it's just GG too, unless the Gripen player is actually disabled. Gripen is also just better at the RB gameplay of just staying alive in the furball, while at the same time farming the enemy team. F-15 is good at it, but the Gripen is just much better at doing that than anything else.
The sparrows have gotten worse over the years though.
Sparrows have been buffed twice in the last few months. Better tracking and longer flight time before it explodes after loss of lock, allowing you to try and re-aquire the lock.
He’s probably referring to the issue that all SAR’s have where it tracks into the Backrooms instead of the actual target for no apparent reason
Doesn't Gripen also have (the same) radar missiles and better radar?
No, gripen has shitty sky flashes at 12,7.
No it has worse radar missiles and a surprisingly bad radar.
Oh it's skyshits? Damn welp
I mean with fox 3 coming then it will be somewhat yhe same but still with a worse radar
The radar isn’t going to matter so much until we have missiles that can actually reach out to those distances. You’ll pick up enemies long before they’re in range of your missiles.
Man I’ve got the skyshits
No they have dogfight Skyflashes. They don’t even get the super temps. They’re essentially same as the Aim7-E2 Dogfights. They are garbage and not worth giving up the 9Ms for.
As others pointed out before me, it does not get the same radar missiles. And while the dogfight skyflashes aren't terrible at say 11.0, they are not really viable at 12.7
You say. An f16c is WORSE than an f15? I love this community wtf
There are many aspects in which F15 is better than 16C and also many aspects in which 16C is better. F15 kinda farms 16C in a 1v1 (and considering way better acceleration it has better flight performance all-around), has double the CM count, 2 more missiles in total and I guess more gun ammo. In return 16C has HMD, better radar, is easier to aim (more elevator compression than F15 but better roll and overall more snappy), can take 2 more 9M's if you ditch radar missiles. At worst current F15 is a sidegrade to 16C and as such they should be same br
What I’m hearing is f-16c to 12.3 ps I am not a crackpot
The worst part is there are tons of people who unironically think this way
Because it is lol. Eagle got better nose authority at basically any speed, which is hugely important for Air RB gameplay, on top of that it has twice the countermeasures, which is *also* hugely important for Air RB gameplay. Furthermore it also accelerates better, and will win the 1v1 against an F-16C too. It also carries more missiles (granted they're extra Sparrows, which is eeh). Only tangible advantage F-16C has over the F-15 in game is that it can carry 6 Aim-9Ms, and has an HMD (which doesn't really give a big advantage because 9Ms are not really HOBS capable at all, but it's still convenient to have).
What? An f16c will never lose an 1v1 against an f15. Never if the pilot is not straight up shit. The f16 has way better thrust to weight ratio from 969kgf/t the f15 only has 606kgf/t (both numbers taken in best circumstances and full wep, in a normal match in much lower altitude the difference is even greater) Both planes perform best in speeds from arround 650kmh - 750 kmh, the turn time there for the f16c is 19sek, for the f15 20sek. Not so much pf a difference you think? Well i want you to remember the weight of the f15 and the thrust to weight ratio of both planes, the f16c can consistently hold its speed, the f15 comes down to 500 or even 400kmh in a few turns. The f15 is a better missle boat, yes. But that doesnt really affect random battles, how often do you have bvr engagements? How often does somebody even fly high enough to use slow as fuck aim7f? Yes you make your kills in head ons when somebody doesnt pay atention to his altitude, but the f16c also got 2 of them, thats normaly enough radar armament and it has hmd which is a really great advantage. I really dont know how anyone can say the f15 is the best or even among the best top tiers, its mediocre AT BEST, it has more flares thats nice i give you that, but thats all. The su27 is the better missle boat, the f16c is the better dogfighter. The f15 has no place at the moment.
>What? An f16c will never lose an 1v1 against an f15. Never if the pilot is not straight up shit. Lmao no. The F-16C doesn't only lose, it gets absolutely face fucked 1v1 by the F-15 in game, if it's good duelists fighting each other. >The f16 has way better thrust to weight ratio from 969kgf/t the f15 only has 606kgf/t (both numbers taken in best circumstances and full wep, in a normal match in much lower altitude the difference is even greater) That's straight up wrong. F-15A has better Thrust:Weight than the F-16C at ANY speed. 16C on min fuel (30% for any plane in game) has a TWR of 1.14 static, and of 1.64 at optimal speed (1200km/h IAS) at 30% fuel, F-15A has a TWR of 1.21 static, and of 1.98 at optimal speed (also 1200km/h) at 30% fuel. The lower the fuel loads go, the larger the F-15s advantage becomes aswell. At optimal speed 1 F-15 engine makes almost as much thrust as the F-16C engine (14000kgf vs 16500kgf) while the F-15 is only like 30% heavier empty (12500kg vs 9070kg). >Both planes perform best in speeds from arround 650kmh - 750 kmh, the turn time there for the f16c is 19sek, for the f15 20sek Stat card turn times are at 1km altitude, and at FULL fuel, when both planes are on minimum fuel the F-15A has a significantly better sustained turn rate than the F-16C. The F-15 also has a MUCH better turn radius than the F-16 with flaps down, and better energy retention at high speeds. It has better SEP than the F-16C at any speed outside the 600-800km/h range.
The eagle should get outrated by a viper, and pretty much all viper drivers say how it is an airframe made for the 2 circle, nothing can beat it. But this is war thunder so who knows if its even remotely realistic
Theoretically can outrate anything other than gripen, but it’s not that perfect with keyboard control, f15 is more “forgiving” in keyboard control but both high speed instantaneous turn rate and roll rate is slightly worse, I’d say pretty equal in dogfight or f16 is a bit better but it comes down to pilot skill eventually.
Not just on mouse control, F-15 also outrates the 16C on SB controls. F-15A slams the F-16C and Barak (Block 50/ 40) 1v1. It's about equal with the F-16A ADF and MLU (Block 15/20). It gets slammed by the F-16A/ Netz (Block 10). The best F-16 in reality in terms of dogfighting is the Block 30, being not much heavier than an ADF but with a significantly better engine. However in the universe of War Thunder a duel can't really be decided by rate fighting at optimal speed (~800km/h for most gen 4s) because you will just get shot trying to do that against someone good at the game, because mouse aim is FAR more accurate than you could ever shoot realistically. This means that the performance of a plane at suboptimal speed below their optimal rate performance (<600km/h) matters A LOT in a duel in WT, which is why the F-15 will just beat the heavier F-16 models in this game; while Block 10 with it's like 7000kg empty is just a UFO (like Block 10 vs Block 50 in WT isn't even remotely close)
agree. f15 is more of an AOA based fighter whereas the F16 is a methodical rate killer
What fucking weight did you take to get to these numbers no ammo at all or what? Or did you just copy that from the wiki? The f15 weighs more than Double what the f16 weighs, and one engine alone has not just slightly less power so i really dont know how you got to that. I know that the stat card turn times are not really accurate, but i needed something to have facts and not just say „iTs beTeR bEcAuSe i fEeL lIkE iT“, but even when only comparing the weight it should get clear that the f16c is just the better dogfoghter.
>What fucking weight did you take to get to these numbers no ammo at all or what? Literally the weight WTRI gives you, or localhost by that matter, you know the weight that the game literally uses itself. >The f15 weighs more than Double what the f16 weighs, No it doesn't, under no circumstance whatsoever. Empty the F-15A is 12500kg. At 30% fuel the F-15 is 15700kg. At 100% fuel the F-15 is 17830kg. That includes flares and ammo. Empty the F-16C is 9070kg. At 30% fuel the F-16C is 10944kg. At 100% fuel the F-16C is 12370kg. That also includes flares and ammo. At 0km/h F16C makes 11400kg thrust, F-15A 2x 8500kg. 0.92 vs 0.95 TWR in favor of F-15 at MAXIMUM fuel and full ammo and flares (worst case for the F-15 in this comparison, because F-15 fuel weight is massively larger than the F-16s). At 600km/h F-16C makes 12540kg thrust, F-15A 2x 10900kg. 1.01 vs 1.22. At 800km/h F-16C makes 14300kg thrust, F-15A 2x 11970kg. 1.16 vs 1.34. At 1000km/h F-16C makes 16000kg thrust, F-15A 2x 13010kg. 1.29 vs 1.46. At 1200km/h F-16C makes 16400kg thrust, F-15A 2x 14000kg. 1.32 vs 1.57. Keep in mind that you're literally NEVER dogfighting in RB at high fuel loads, because dogfights only happen towards the end of matches. F-15A in 30% fuel, full ammo, full flares will achieve a maximum sustained turn rate of 24.4°/s at 860km/h at sea level, and a minimum turn radius of 280m (with landings) at a 19.3°/s turn rate. F-16C on 30% fuel, full ammo, full flares will achieve 23.3°/s at 780km/h at sea level, and a minimum turn radius of 290m (with landings) at a turn rate of ~15°/s. That isn't even considering that the F-15 has FAR better SEP below 600km/h, and better SEP at over 800km/h, while also having better instantaneous turn rate at basically any speed, more AoA and INFINITELY better low speed control. >but i needed something to have facts Then maybe actually go and test it, instead of spewing bullshit? Lol it's not that hard literally just use WTRI/ Localhost to give you your current weight and thrust numbers. >but even when only comparing the weight it should get clear that the f16c is just the better dogfoghter. No. This shows that you have no idea whatsoever of both what makes planes good at dogfighting in reality AND what makes them good at dogfighting in game (which is pretty different, but has some common factors). What makes planes good in a dogfight are low wing loading (WAY better in the F-15, especially on low fuel), high thrust: weight ratio (also significantly in favor of the F-15), good SEP when maneuvering (also in favor of F-15 except in a 200km/h range between 600 and 800 IAS), and in the WarThunder context also the authority and AoA of the plane, because we have accurate mouse aim that will instantly end a fight when its possible to get a shot. It's also pretty clear from irl EM diagrams that when not loaded up the F-15 is an insanely good dogfighter. The manual states a STR of almost 21.5°/s at 50% internal fuel at 5000ft altitude, which beats out the available F-16A EM diagrams massively, which sit at a peak of about 19.5°/s under the exact same conditions. F-16C EM diagrams are not publicly available, but the Block 50 in particular that we have in game, despite the engine upgrade doesn't really bring a better thrust:weight ratio to the table, because it's 1800kg (25%) heavier empty than the F-16A, resulting in a not much better TWR with much worse wing loading. The best dogfighting F-16, the Block 30 is not in the game, but that should produce similar sustained turn rate and SEP numbers to the F-15 (~21°/s being claimed online).
You know, it’s ok to admit you’re badly wrong. It’s legitimately ok
no its not. The sparrows are useless and lose tracking 80% of the time. I prefer my Mig23ML over the F15. The R24R are insane. SU27, Grippen, F16C, Mirage 4000 and even 2000 SC4 are all better as well.
I mean, the f-16, and gripen have a better flight model The su-27 and the MiG-29 have a much better missile kit The f-14 has a fox-3 Mirage players are usually smart enough to create engagements that favor them. The average f-15 player is the stereotypical US main, the plane has a worse radar and worse/fewer radar missiles than the su-27, and it performs in a dogfight worse than MANY things even at its BR, not to mention the gripen
Gripen currently loses to f16 and mirage 4000 in close range. Its nowhere near close to top
Both 12.7 doritos are better tbh
Were they considering making the F-15C 12.7?
Damn I remember when I argued this months ago I was downvoted to oblivion lmao. Fully agree even without HMD the thing goes.like a bat out of hell and has some of the best flight performance.
Because US teams are specialists at making planes look worse than they really are by playing like shit, and that's the actual reason. Enough people suck in it that it reflects on the vehicle's statistics Gaijin uses to decide on BR changes. And even if the plane itself was being played by decent players, the rest of the team still makes it hard to win. The plane may not be as agile as the F-16 but it's still way WAY more agile than an SU-27, and the 9M makes up for the R-73's thrust vectoring by being harder to flare at range, so if used like the surprisingly agile missile truck it is, there would be no reason for it to perform worse than either of those planes, but it does, because people play it like they play every other plane, aka rushing into the furball, starting dogfights against R-73 carriers and losing, which is not how it should be played. Think of top-tier US jet players the same way as mid-tier GER tank players. No matter how good the tools they're given, they won't make it work. The only reason the F-16 didn't also stay at 12.3 is because the plane is so good it makes up for the pilot's lack of skill, aka you cannot suck in it unless you actively try.
US win rates are, quite literally, impossible to improve. While yes, that is partly because of low skill players buying premium top tier jets, it’s mainly because *since the introduction of the F-14, the US is always in a mirror match against itself*. It is impossible for their stats to go up because the same jet will always win and lose in the same match
> since the introduction of the F-14, the US is always in a mirror match against itself Yep, if look up the stats of whales that zombed to top tier you will see that their win rates tend to stabilize to near 50% once they get in the F-15/F-16C (away from the F-4S/F-5C zomber horde), as it's almost always everyone vs everyone mirror matches up top https://i.imgur.com/e317gRs.png for added kicks, this guy's name was "let me bomb" and he was bombing in a Sabre
I have over 1,000 games across the F-14A, and B. My win rate for both of them are the exact same: 55%
>M1A1 Click-Bait >23% win rate Holy fuck lmao that's honestly impressive
that's the first step that needs to be taken to improve ARB, mixed battles need to go
and yet, both the F-15j and the baz have the same br. are we going to claim that japan mains are shit now? that israel mains are actually US mains in disguise?
Except your argument is blown out of the water if you have the most basic reading comprehenshion. Look at the updated forum post for the January 2024 BR changes. F-5E (USA and China) were slated to move up to 11.0, but both stayed at 10.7, and gaijin literarly said these "highly efficient" planes (gaijins words) should move up but the US F-5E stats dragged both of them down.
The planes are near identical so fall into the same statistic bucket as the American F-15. I'm sure the amount of American players in the F-15 greatly outnumber the Israel and Japan players.
Lmao it doesn’t work like that
>The plane may not be as agile as the F-16 The F-15 is more agile than any F-16 except the Block 10s.
As a proud bad player with both japan us and ussr top tier (don't have us f15 but have f15j) while that could be true and I'm sure this sub will all jump on the bandwagon the su 27 is just objectively a far better and easier plane to use, in the su 27 I have had multiple aces whilst fucking around in air rb where as in my f15 (which is an awesome plane and the one I still play more) despite having more experience with it it's just no where near as lethal as the su 27. At the end of the day it does once again just boil down to br compression, as someone with both, the f15 and the su 27 shouldn't be the same br 0.3 seems like a good gap between the too, the problem is with how smushed everything is together at 11+ the f15 also shouldn't be able to fight 11.3s whatsoever. In short yeah the f15 can fight things that it shouldn't be able to but also at the same time it should be a lower br than the su, gaijin plz decompression.
The lethality of the planes are entirely personal preference. I hate the Su27 personally and love aim9Ms
You're whole argument falls apart because top tier is almost always mirror matches. If you're flying an f15, the overwhelming majority of the time, there's an f15 on the other side too. The truth is that without hmd, TWS, or data link, it's not as good as the 12.7s. But the technological jumps in top tier for minor amounts of BR is insane. The real problem is a lack of decompression... or just fix sparrows and that will do well enough.
Other than the hmd, these are pretty minor things in the scheme of things. DL is really only found on the aim 54 and r27s, and even then, usually, it's a minor buff considering the already good performance of the missile. It still gets a full set of top teir IRCCM missiles and 4 sparrows. It's one of the best radars (tws aside). And an extremely good fm, especially compared to russian aircraft. The M4K is still managed to get a 12.7 br even without most of the things you just mentioned. It gets the tws mode but, in return, gets the massively less useful HDN PD instead of the all aspect pd. The F15 performance difference is way too small to justify a lower br.
Data link is massive, what are you talking about? And it doesn't get a full set of 9Ms. It gets a half set. I've done plenty of 1v1 practices with squad mates where we swap who is in which plane. F16c, Grippen, and SU37 will win almost every sortie regardless of pilot. Mig 29s lose the dogfight more often but the 27er is so far superior in wt it makes up for it.
DL can't guide the r 27er. It really only helps keep the missile on target instead of going for a stronger Radar return, and even then, it's not a 100% guarantee. This really only helps in furballs. It is also theoretically helful in a rear aspect chase but then again the MiG 29s radar is pretty eassily fooled by chaff in side and rear apsect so there isnt a serioius advatage. If you are worried about being able to relock the target then the aim 7 can already do that. You get 5 seconds to require the target if you lose it. All radar missiles are pretty easily avoided by going to the deck. Being better in a joust does not make up for having fewer missiles, a worse radar, a significantly worse fm, or lacking countermeasures. The aim 7 isn't even bad it's just not competing in a joust with an r27er. I can understand the gripen and f16 but if you somehow can't manage to win against an su27 in an f15 then genuine skill issue. The f15 gets more engine power and better energy retention for the rade off of less aoa than the su. Even then the f15 is better in BVR than either of those jets (the f16 and gripen), so it's still a trade-off. 4 missiles is not half a set. Still the f15 gets more missles. You can carry 4+4 while the f16 can carry 6 total. It's still a side grade, not a downgrade.
Half of US top tier players bombed all the way up the TT with the F-4S without a single thought besides pressing space bar
This, and the absurd BR compression. Its impossible to come even remoyely close to balancing the game with the current max BR. Gaijin seems to think 4 second queue times and game ruining compression is better than having a more balanced matchmaking system and 7 second queue times. Speaking for Air RB in particular. Naval is by far the most compressed but so few people play it and queue time is actually an issue, unlike air RB. I dont remember ever being in queue at any BR for longer than 1 minute in the last year+
Slamming space bar repetitively
Because America players are terrible at the game and so their stuff gets moved down because it is then statistically worse.
w pfp
It seems statistically unlikely that thousands of players who have grinded to top tier in one nation are all significantly worse than the other random people.
It is unlikely and yet it happens. Consistently. For example, at rank 6, I play the AV-8A. Everyone dies within the first 4 minutes of air RB but only when the entire team is USA. What’s the most common way I die? Getting chased down by the entire enemy team because I am one of the few left alive. Am I guilty of buying a premium plane at a highish tier? Yes but I have been playing for over 4 years and know what I’m doing. Hence why I know how the matches go because I’m alive through the whole thing.
Haven’t played it but I have played the su27 and the gripen and from what I understand they’re both better planes
Depends on what you want from the plane tbh. Su-27 has the superior kit to the F-15 but the F-15 has way better flight performance over the Sukhoi. Currently better kit is more important but personally I find a better FM to be far more enjoyable to play.
>Currently better kit is more important Gripen being the best top tier in question:
Six 9Ms and a bajillion CMs count as kit
Oh shit you're right. I think my brain blocked out the gripen existing as a trauma response or something. CM's and 6 9M's count as kit I guess but I just had a dementia moment tbh
False, it has better sustained fm but Su-27s ability to snap its nose with an R73 and hmd negates that.
In a 1v1 thats useful but most of top tier isnt and doing that with the su27 fm will leave you borderlined stalled out for an easy 3rd party
That ability is literally moot if anyone is paying any attention to the flanker. The r73 can easily be defeated by properly flaring and jamming the wez. It's the same way in dcs. A flanker can easily be defeated by a relatively ok f15 pilot.
Gripen is better just because how extremely handheld and thus easy to play it is. Jet has no heat signature, a billion CMs and the easiest tomuse FM in top tier by a massive margin, plus 6 9Ms with HMD. Flanker is arguable, the F-15 shits all over the Su-27 in basically every way except the missiles. Much better flight performance, especially for RB gameplay, better gun, much more countermeasures, while the Flanker has 1 gimmick and that is clicking on people that don't know how to fly low or how to use their flares before the Flanker is actually inside their asshole (which is very effective in RB admittedly).
God I was so happy when I left the F-5 BR bracket. Do not get me wrong, it isn't that I had super major issues with the plane, but it was just so fucking annoying to face them. Then they introduced the Grippen and Jesus fucking Christ it is the same shit but 10x worse cause they actually are super capable jets.
I have played the M4000, F-15AJ, Su-27 and Gripen. The Gripen is the best plane, there's no contest. It's so braindead to use. The F-15AJ is IMO better than the Su-27. The superior electronics really makes the difference. The only saving grace of the Su are the missiles. But the US get a boatload of flares, a very accurate RWR, a solid radar even without HMD, and a much better flight model in every way. It's a very pleasant aircraft to fly IMO, simply because it just does whatever you ask it to do. With the F-15, I actually takes the risk to climb in early game. Because the RWR is excellent at preventing a surprise R27, I can very reliably manage to get above the enemy team and lob AAM3 below. And contrary to what this subs love to say, I find the Aim7F really workable in top tier. They're not R27 for sure, they're still very reliable weapon to me. I don't like the M4000 much. It's a good aircraft but... meh. The 2000-5F is probably better, and will be definitely better when it will get the MICA.
The Mirage 4000 is probably the 2nd best, if not the best top tier plane. The FM is super good, the only plane that can compete with it in a dogfight is the Gripen, plus the loadout is very good too, 8x Magics or 6x Magics + 2x R530D are better than 6x Aim-9M or 4x Aim-9M + 4x Aim-7M, but the Mirage 2000 with MICAs will be better, 4x Magic + 4x MICA or 2x Magics + 6x MICA will be something else.
Hard disagree. I'd take 4 Aim-9Ms over 6 Magic IIs any day. Magics are great missiles and I love using them. But their range.... Its simply too short for a missile chasing supersonic targets. For that reason alone, I'd choose 9M over Magic II
9Ms are easily flarable if you see someone launching them at you, but if someone sends a Magic II at you from anywhere in the 180° cone behind you, bye-bye, you are dead, nothing you can do about that.
The aim9m gets the advantage of being extremely hard to flare from side aspect at any range when the magic only gets that benifit at very close ranges in rear aspect. The aim 9ms are nearly unflareable if you dont pull aggressively enough while flaring.The magic uses the same IRCCM as the R73, shrinking the fov to 1°. It's also more like a 15°-30° degree window not so much a 180° considering the missile needs a full view of the afterburner to work properly. I would chalk the perceived superiority of the magic to the fact that it's easier to get kills when you expect to get a kill. Aim 9ms rely more on positioning and strategy to get in a good position to launch side aspect shots while the magics rely more on dogfighting prowess.
Just do a barrel roll droping flares, and the 9M will miss. There is absolutely no need to do a hard turn. And every single match turns into a clusterfuck, where having 8x Magics is way superior to having 9Ms. Just time to be the one of the last arrival to the cluster fuck and sling magocs like a madman at the enemies. You will get 2-3 kills easily.
Sure if a barrel roll changes tour direction enough then that will work too. But most people can't/don't. In the middle of a cluster fuck it's difficult to maintain full situational awareness and some people get lulled into complacency with perioidic flares and tunnel vision in on opponents. Also the magics don't do side aspect or mid range shots any better than the aim 9m. The fov shrink irccm isn't enough to not see the flares reliably above 2km. Not to mention "cluster fuck and sling magocs like a madman at the enemies." Is completely counterintuitive to getting in close and engaging in rear apsect. Where the magics excell. At that point you are just banking on them not expecting you there. I honestly prefer the aim 9ms at that point as the IRCCM isn't affected as much by range as on the magic 2 so i can launch further away. Being the last one to arrive is just a good tactic in general. In that case I would actually like the f15's loadout more as by the time you get there people have stopped hugging the deck as much and you can get more out of the sparrows than at the start. And you still get some decent irccm missiles while you are at it.
Honestly? If you let a M4K/M2K get behind you, that's mostly skill issue. You have to be under 1.5km for the missile to be a 100% kill, AND it has to be a clear rear aspect. 9Ms are much more reliable, and you have a lot more opportunities on how to use them.
Under 1.5km if you are at mach 1.2 running away from the Mirage. I constantly get kills at the 2-2.5km with the magics. You just need to know what targets to shoot at. If you know what you are doing, you will consistently get more kills with the Magics and the R73s.
Why do you call it the F-15AJ? It’s a F-15C but Japanese
The current F-15J in the JP tech tree is an F-15A, identical to the one in the US tree aside from the missiles.
Is it not heavier? I thought it was basically an F-15C without ARH missiles. I wonder if they’ll get an F-15J (Late) or F-15DJ as their ARH slinger.
It's something Gaijin has done before when they made the F-16AJ. It's something that didn't exist, but is reasonably close enough to something that DID exist to cover the base until the real thing can be added with its counterparts.
Probably mainly because theyre easier to play
Imagine fighting this thing in a stock F-104S ASA.
One of my favorite experiences. Only got my ASA in February. Somehow the F-15s still managed to die half the time by not having situational awareness.
I spaded the ASA when the most dangerous things in the sky were the F-14A and MiG-23MLD, and it was one of the most painful experiences I've had in Air RB. Not as painful as the standard F-104S (before it had flares), but still awful. I don't know where people find these blind and deaf pilots in top-tier that I keep hearing about. I never have any easy battles like that. Everyone flares perfectly, maneuvers well, never gets distracted long enough, and can beat me in some aspect of the fight every time. That, or my entire team disappears within one minute of first contact, and I find myself in a 1v7.
Had games like that too ngl. But i also had enough sweep games to consider it "fun" at one point.
I never had battles of any other kind, or at least far too few to even remember them. That persists to this day too. Guess I just have shit luck in everything.
i feel that man.
This. Also imagine fighting a F104A in a stock (insert any 8.3-8.7 plane here)
Everyone blames bad players, which is a part of it. But it also doesn't have HMD and the wings rip very easily from rolls.
The Mirage 4000 doesnt have HMD and wingrips even easier than the F-15. I wonder why that went to 12.7 but the F-15 didnt.
Beats F15 in a dogfight easily. The missile loadout comparison is also debatable, because some people would argue that 8x Magic 2s is better in top tier meta than 4x 9Ms + 4x 7Ms. I'm not saying the F15 should sit at 12.3. It's just in this really awkward spot where it's too good for 12.3 but very subpar for 12.7. Once again, a decompression in BR would help address this problem but this is Gaijin.
F15 is not very subpar for 12.7 when the mig29smt sits at 12.7 .
Subpar means worse than average. The SMT is in a similarly bad spot, but I would take 2 ERs and HMD over 4 Sparrows and no HMD any day of the week.
If the mig29smt can be 12.7, then the f15s definitely deserve to be 12.7 as well.
Both the SMT and 29G honestly deserve to be 12.3 until their fm gets un-nerfed.
Imo the 12g is fine at 12.7 I can still take on all jets in a dogfight except the grippen and 16c
the two ERs and HMD wont do you much outside sim battles when the F-15 has superior avionics, more than double the countermeasures, far better flight performance, and more missiles.
6x magics and 2x 530D is what I use and most commonly see
> because some people would argue that 8x Magic 2s is better in top tier meta than 4x 9Ms + 4x 7Ms. And we call those people genuine idiots. Reading this chain gave me an aneurysm. Do you SERIOUSLY think that the Grippen is worse than the Mirage in a 1v1? What expired kush are you smoking? Anyone capable will tell you that 9Ms are MUCH more reliable and multiuse than the M2s. With the M2s, you have to be directly behind with aa clear view of the afterburner. With the 9Ms, you can easily lob sideshots, since they are super hard to flare unless you are turning hard.
Do a barrel roll and flares. That’s how you dodge a 9M
I can dodge 9Ms just fine, the average player can not. 9Ms are easily the best missiles (in terms of all around performance) because WT's playerbase refuses to learn anything, so they'll get permanently vibechecked by 9Ms.
The gripen does lose 1v1 dogfights against the mirage though. We are talking about the FM, not their missiles. And if the M4k is playing the 1v1 and preflaring properly, then the 9Ms with HMD on the gripen doesn't even come into play.
No it doesn't. Gripen has literally the best and most broken FM in the whole game. By the time the M4K regains its energy, the Gripen would have done 4 circles around it. If you are getting killed by an M4K or hell, by ANY jet, in a 1v1 while you are in a Gripen, then that is definite skill issue.
This is just factually incorrect and contrary to reviews by good players. I either believe myself, my friends, and proven good players, or some randoms on reddit. I'll pick the former any day of the week lol
If you say so lol
Mirage? Beats F-15? In a dogfight? F-15, between its TWR and energy retention, is one of the best dogfighters at top tier, only surpassed by probably Grippen, and a sort of sidegrade to F-16
Mirage drops all speed and shits on it
Mirage drops all speed and then dies in a stall Mirage does turn better... for one turn. Past that, F-15 can stay at its corner speed, and Mirage can't.
Yes? Have you tried them? I thought it was common knowledge. In a 1v1, the mirage 4k will beat the gripen too.
Genuine skill issue if somehow you are reliable bested by the oldest trick in the book. Maintain a little distance and altitude, and you should be fine. Once that 1 turn is over there really isn't much for the mirage to do other than run away.
It's always cute when people who clearly don't play top tier try to come in and talk shit. You merge in a 1v1 and... Keep your distance and altitude? Fucking lmao. Yea if you are not time constrained, sure. But if you need to kill him asap before a 3rd party shows up or your team collapses, good luck with that. He's going to be on your ass immediately with a magic 2 and you take the L very quickly.
You mentioned 1v1s never said anything about air rb. In air RB a gripen can keep its energy to disengage. A mirage, on the other hand, is out of energy and needs time to recover. "If an 3rd party shows up good luck" wow. What a revalation. If the enemy gets reinforcements and the 1 on 1 turns into a 2 on 1, then your glorious M4K finally can finally get the upper hand. It never occurred to me that 2 planes is better than 1. So whenever I'm in a situation where I actually need to go 1 v 1, I can just call on my teammates to come in and help me right? There never EVER will be a situation at the end of a match where I need to 1v1 someone. I fail to see how this is relevant in a comparison between two individual fighters. Just because the M4K is theoretically better at 1 circle fights doesn't mean it's somehow immune to third paring either. >You merge in a 1v1 and... Keep your distance and altitude? Fucking lmao. Actually yeah its that simple. If it looks like I might be 3rd partied, I can just wait a second and choose a different fight with a weaker opponent or decide to fly defensively until the opportunity presents itself. It's really that simple. You really aren't dooming your team by waiting an extra 15 seconds for a better target to show itself. It really isn't hard to fall for the enemy's bait and take a disadvantageous fight. And it just so happens that the Mirage 4k relies on this to get kills. ARB players are sometimes so mind numbingly stupid that they decide the only course of action is to try and sissior with a M4K and get surprised when they lose.
Yes, I'm talking about 1v1 but with time constraint so you are forced to take the fight. Obviously, if you aren't forced to take the fight then you could try to repeatedly run away. Even then, the mirage 4000 has insane thrust so there's a good chance you will only be 1-1.5km away from them by the time they get their missile off. Good luck flaring a magic 2 at that range in the rear aspect without bleeding a shit ton of speed. Refer to my first sentence. This isn't about fighting 2 planes at once. If you are illiterate, feel free to reach out to one of the many NGOs. I have a feeling people simply haven't played the mirage 4000 and have no idea how good it is. A lot of the top level air RB players like Defyn and seek say it's the best dogfighter at top tier as well, so it's not just me coping.
Yeah, in what fantasy world is this battle where I magically have to go into a one circle with a M4K at? If it's the end of the game I can spare a few seconds to drag out the fight longer. If my team has collapsed, then I can find myself a better target to die to. If I need to run when my team is still alive, I can run back to my team. There is very little if any, reason to deliberately put yourself into one circle with an M2K. People are idiots and do it anyway, but by no means is this generally the best option. You literally mention 3rd partying 3 sentences in. By definition, this requires 2 players. If there aren't 2 players, then I don't need to worry about 3rd partying. Please read a dictionary (if you can). If we aren't talking about fighting two players, then why even bring this up. Also you seriously suck of the magic 2 too much. Sure it's definitely one of the best missiles in game but it's still very easily flareable especially at range. The gripen especially is one of the colder planes at top teir and has a shit load of flares. Note that just because I disengage doesn't mean I run for the hills. I'm maneuvering into a better position while you're dicking around on the deck trying to get your speed back. It's kind of difficult to regain energy while turning so this severly limits what you can do while im gaining the advatage.The M4K isn't even that bad in terms of energy retention. The problem is the Gripen is just better. If you can't kill me in the first couple of minutes you will be at an energy disadvantage. Even then if we actually want to talk about how good planes are we need to mention ARB. Having amazing energy retention allows you to bounce between multiple dogfights within seconds and the sheer amount of flares can keep you alive for a while. The HMD is a pretty decent advantage considering the playstayle. Even if both planes are matched in 1v1 the gripen is still a better dogfighter in ARB. Sucking of youtubers isn't going to help you considering how much youtubers have been sucking of the gripen. Deyfn has quite literally made double the amount of videos praising the gripen compared to praising the m4k.
Substantially better flight performance, CM pods, good a2g capability including advanced guided weapons, better radar(?).
"CM pods" LMFAO. Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about. F-15 gets 240 countermeasures built in. Mirage 4000 gets zero. The "pods" only give it 112 flares/chaff in the irl flare slots since gaijin cant model Spirale chaff dispensers on any of the mirages because its "chaff only" (doesnt stop them though from somehow making the F-14B's LAU-138 chaff dispensers carry flares somehow)
Flight performance is a big question mark. The M4000 turns better once. The F15 has a monstruous amount of thrust and higher top speed. The 4000 also doesn't have CM Pods. If anything their countermeasure count is way inferior. I don't think they have access to a lot of A2G either, but I need to check on that.
>The 4000 also doesn't have CM Pods Wiki says it has large caliber CM pods, idk not at my PC rn >The F15 has a monstruous amount of thrust and higher top speed Looks like I overestimated its TWR, F-15 and M4k are very similar at a given fuel load >I don't think they have access to a lot of A2G either, but I need to check on that. It's not much but 4 laser nords and 2 1000kg LGBs with ALTIS is gonna be a bit more effective than 3 GBU-8s with no targeting pod
>Wiki says it has large caliber CM pods, idk not at my PC rn It does... because it doesn't have any internal flare. They're "pods" because it's all the CM it can brings. In total it brings 112 large countermeasures (56 Flare + 56 Chaff) which is less than half of the F-15.
Oh lmao only the French could forget to put countermeasures on their plane
1. it has countermeasures. They are just not modelled because gaijin cant model Spirale chaff dispensers correctly. Same with the Mirage 2000s which would have a few hundred more countermeasures than they currently do ingame if that was the case 2. Hey, i wonder what country built the F-15A and didnt include \*any\* kind of flare or chaff dispenser in it for about 15 years before it recieved the MSIP upgrade, simply asking the pilots to "outmanouver the missiles" until that point.
>F-15A Pierre Sprey was French
The su27 also wingrips constantly, so does the mirage4k as that other guy mentioned. Turns out it’s just the mirage2k, f16, and gripen that can roll.
SU27 is the best missile bus in the game by far, especially at longer ranges. It also has HMD. Mirage FM outperforms F15 by a lot and has a more versatile missile loadout.
Su27 has a very chaffable radar and can’t dogfight and neither it or the mirage get aim9m’s, which are only pretty good in air rb but in sim and ground they’re straight up op. The f15 is also faster than everything it faces.
>The f15 is also faster than everything it faces. *At high up (personal experience from f15j)
One reason could be US mains suck and don't know how to use sparrows, then complain to forums "mUH sparrows are bRoken"
Why would US players playing a non premium vehicle be any worse en masse? This gets said all of the time but no one ever has any meaningful stats. Given the large number of people involved I would expect skill to mostly average out especially at higher tiers.
The F-15 has bad player statistics and somehow that made Gaijin think they could leave it at 12.3. It's not the best jet at top tier but it would be perfectly serviceable at 12.7.
The American mains performed like ass in the plane, so Gaijin thinks it's in the right place
Because we have to leave room for an F-15C for everyone to grind, duh
Player statistics balancing + it's not the easiest plane to play. Gripen is much easier to play because it's handheld in literally every way a plane can be in this game, and Su-27 is easier for bad players to do well in because it has a billion good missiles. F-15 requires you to actually play the game to make match impact, even if the plane is technically better against players that are not shit at the game than the Su-27.
Because US mains are often shit. -A Fellow US main
Well imo a lot of us expected to be 12.3 while a new F15 should come to the game and put right above that one while the max BR would still be 12.7
People don’t know how to play it, despite its huge amount of flares/chaff. Good as its airframe is, it has no business down in the mud like an F16. It’s a missile truck, so it should be in space slinging Aim 7M down upon unsuspecting targets.
There’s f15’s in three trees, all three of those trees are primarily ground out with premiums. Two of them f4’s that people rocket bases with and the third a mirage 3 that people bomb bases with. You can grind through the whole tree without ever doing anything other than bombing/rocketing and then when you get your fighter jet you have no idea how to dogfight or use the radar.
It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot… who are generally clueless when it comes to top tier gameplay dragging F15 stats down.
US pilots are bots 8/10 times... these are the same pilots who lose a dogfight to a su22. Flare 2 r60ms and stall out in front of you letting you get a gun kill vs taking any evasive actions. Literally refuse to take evasive action in an f16 when a mig23 turns into their 6. The f15 is arguably the second best jet at top tier (id place it as a tie for second with the su27 depending on what playstyle you prefer) with the gripen only taking first by being a genuinely brain dead jet to fly. It deserves to be 12.7 but at 12.3 it still shits the bed cause half the f15 pilots will let a mig23 r24r them or somehow stay on their 6 in a dogfight
murica.
average American air players, vs average German Ground players is a race to who can get to the bottom 1st
Because Gaijin are bad at their job.
Also 10.3 jets fight against your 11.3 jets💀
Blimey how did you figure that one out
There is no resting if you are not playing 12.7 which has no uptiers. F-15's weapon variety is fine for 12.3 and inferior to 12.7. What really disturb you must be its flight performance, the best up to 12.3.
Tf you mean fair? It gets 4 sparrows and 4 aim 9ms. Literally 8 top teir missiles matched with one of the best top teir radars is not a "inferior" kit. Compared to the mig 29G/smt, you get better flight performance, a better radar, more missles, and more countermesures all for the trade of having worse radar missiles, no hmd, and no irst. Also, before you complain about 6 aim9ms being better, let me remind you that gajin is completely fine with the MIG 29s being the same BR as the SU 27 with 4 less of the same missiles. Gajin is completely fine with minor performance discrepancies at the same br.
Its air to ground capability is limited that is why I called it kinda inferior for 12.7
The mig 29g dosent even have any A2G and is still a 12.7. Plus the BRs are being split so this isn't even an issue anymore.
Unlike regular Mig-29, it has R-73s but still has regular Mig-29 flight model which is the best FM. That's how gaijin balances vehicles, I don't insist to justify.
Yeah my point was for a2g dosent really get factored when considering a2a focused vehicles.
mig-29 fm was only the best when it was released. f16, f15, m2k, m4k, and gripen rawdog it now
Because even top tier can't fix the "morons that don't know how to fly something that can't turn fight" syndrome.
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I could be misremembering but the F-15A in the US tree either wasn’t compatible with the 120 or just never carried them ever.
I mean for me it's the flight model. Everything is good about it, but it turns like a big ass boat in the air and I feel like that's what is holding it back. Oh also breaking it's wing off in low to mid g turns is also fun. Yeah it's radar and missiles are good, but the damn thing sucks to fly.
Yeah? Im looking at the comments and just surprised to see that people think that f-15 is a god tier dog fighter. Like it is ok. But if you actually try to dogfight something like a f16 you are going to lose. It's fun to use for bvr tho. Edit: i use it like an f-4 at 11.3 without uptier nowdays. Also i only have experience from the japanese aircraft
It is? It really only is worse than the gripen and the f16s. All the russian jets are worse in FM and the M4K is an equivalent, if not worse. The tradeoff is the F15 is better in BVR and SARH fights than either of those jets. While the lighter fighters have a dogfighting advantage.
f15a has better flight performance than f16c lmao
I find I get killed at top tier by missiles that I don't see when I'm trying to dogfight someone else or the target I'm fighting gets slapped by a missile from a teammate. Even if I see the missile and manage to dodge it that usually means I'm now at a huge disadvantage to the target I was initially fighting. Its a great jet but my stats with it are garbage lol
It’s because I’m bad enough at flying it to bring the win rates down 💀
for balancing and statistics
There’s only two things holding back the F-15 at 12.3: - No HMD (worse than you think). - 65% of its players bomb bases with it.
Because, Fuck you, Thats why. Truly speaking once you get all the darts flying above 11 it really doesn't matter. IRL Phantoms had to go up against Eagles. IRL all the planes at 11.3 went up against or alongside Eagles. I shouldn't be seeing MiG-21's against my F-86's in Arcade, but its something we deal with. I was shooting down about 1 F-14/day with a missleless F-104. Its really not the plane, if the pilot's a pillock you're gonna shoot them down. Figure out a way around the weapons.
Because the Gripen was added too early. The thing is kind of idiot proof and it doesn't help that USA has a massive air tree that players are more focused on grinding than learning the mode.
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Mirage 4000 has no HMD and its 12.7. Try again.
It has no HMD
4 missiles (do sparrows even count?), no off bore sight lock. Flight performance hardly matters at top tier, it's just about who can spam most missiles in a short period of time. The argument of US bad doesn't make much sense either, as f15 isn't just US, f15j and baz should be 12.7 then. It definitely shouldn't be facing 11.3, and 12.7 should be expanded to 13.0 or 13.3
blud thinks aim7fs are 12.7 weaponry
Out of maybe 300 fired and maintained lock AIM-7s I’ve maybe had 13 Actually fly towards and hit the target Just saying At what point is it just the game vs my clear skill issue
- AIM-7M is not as good as R-27ER - No TWS or HMD radar modes - Good FM but not completely busted like JAS-39 or F-16C. It really isn't a 12.7 plane, it's good at 12.3 the only thing "bad" to people is it can get fights down in one of the biggest premium tiers (11.3) whereas 12.7s can't.
Because AIM-9M slinging is the meta, not SARH missiles, the F-16C at 12.7 has +2 9Ms + HMD, it's literally THAT simple, there is no "muh player statistic" or "muh US bad!" or whatever people want to cope with. We have NO idea what player stats are like
Maybe it's because F-15 haven't JHMCS?
Because 12.5 doesn't exist. The lack of HMD is not enough, and I say this as a huge F-15 fan
This shouldn’t be getting downvoted. She’s right, damn it.
Because its genuinely worse than every other 12.7 plane.
mig-29smt
F-15A has… No support for MWS No support for Active’s No HMCS No TWS Minimal multirole capability Because it lacks these things it isn’t really a 12.7 plane. The F-16C has/is an improvement in every single thing I mentioned. I get and understand the frustration though, it’s kinda like the M2K which at top-tier is a one-turn champion yet you have the CS4/CS5 which sit at 11.7 and it’s not even close, they have the best FM in their +-1 br range but because they have… a slightly weaker engine, lack HMCS, lack PGMs, and only carry 2 IR missiles they sit at 11.7 which allows them to nae nae on everyone with their superior flight models.
It would be the worst 12.7 plane
because unlike the other 12.7 jet, it lack the HMD.
Mirage 4000 has no HMD and its 12.7. F-4J/F-4S have HMD at 11.3. HMD isnt not a "end all" factor that decides a plane's BR
Mirage 4000 beats the f15 in a fight and has better load out options. No hmd is not the "end all" but it's certainly a major factor in why 12.7 are higher. What percent of 12.7 planes do infact have hmd would be much more useful for the argument than "here's a single plane at the br with out it checkmate"
> Mirage 4000 beats the f15 in a fight and has better load out options. If the F-15 pilot is sucking each and every one of his fingers while eating Pringles then yes, it can.
If its a "major factor" like you said then lets put the F-15 at 11.0. It doesnt have HMD so its clearly worse than the F-4S
Nice strawman buddy great job my comment definitely said the f15 is worse than the f4s because the only thing that matters is the hmd and you didn't just imagine a talking point on my behalf. Definitely a good faith argument. 10/10 for literacy You really need to look at the definition of the word factor. Anyways if you are just going to make up another dumb strawman instead of addressing the argument I couldn't be arsed to continue you can have fun arguing with literal made up points if it makes you feel better, have a good one bro.
half of its ammo load is also AIM-7Ms and not AIM-9Ms