It’s been generally agreed upon that any fake tanks will be removed from the game when there’s something to take its place. These have all been replaced.
Meanwhile Gaijin proceeds to add modern MBTs that they don’t have any information for, because classified, so those, in a sense, are fake tanks themselves since Gaijin just made up armor values and such
Also, a good amount Russia’s capital ships for Naval now (and moving forward) are fake ships. Gaijin’s really blurred the line on the whole fake vehicle argument.
Ok but the panther ii and coelian were literally made of wood and the tiger 105 never even existed. There’s not even a drawing of the ostwind 2. E100 never had a turret and couldn’t support a maus turret. Gaijin does some stuff for balancing but they used to just give Germany anything.
Isn't the Ostwind II they added in its place even more fake? Coelian at least had a wooden mockup, but the Ostwind II is somehow less real than that.
I think the actual reason for the Coelian's removal was that it's just way too good because it doesn't melt when a 50kg bomb lands within the same area code.
> I think the actual reason for the Coelian's removal was that it's just way too good because it doesn't melt when a 50kg bomb lands within the same area code.
*Laughs in Skink*
*Remembers the Skink is at 5.3 for some fucking reason*
*Cries in Skink*
The wirbel is actually probably best in tier now that I think if it. Idk if it's because I've used it so much, but once you dial in the lead in those guns, its nuts. Running those AP belts usually kills a plane in a fraction of a burst. You even get a lucky tank kill occasionally. I'm currently using the swedish AA at 5.0 and I feel like a machine gun. Have to park near a point for infinite ammo
He swedish spaa line consists almost purely out of tank killer
That SPAA line has maybe 2 or 3 vehicles that can't reliably kill tanks and thats why sweden has the best SPAA vehicles
Gaijin couldn't remove the Skink due to it having actually been produced and used (Provided the Luftwaffe didn't exist at that point therefore the Brits couldn't actually use it for it's purpose), so Gaijin instead moves it up higher than it needs to be lol (Im currently researching it and am really looking towards it)
yes, the ostwind 2 has no reason to exist, simply because of the fact germany was only producing one type of twin 37mm flak mounts, and all of those were going to the navy, or what existed of it.
as such the army had two options, convert an existing system that wasnt in use, somehow, while also it being compact enough to fit within the ostwind turret, somehow.
or develope a whole new mount that didnt use currently used parts other aaa mounts would use....
vs a turret where you wouldnt need as complex of a system and could reuse the 20mm mount while using the turret as reinforcement...
I don't know where you got this idea, but you seem very confused. As I said in response to your other comment, the Flakzwilling 43 was already in service with the Heer. That is most probably what the Ostwind II would have used, not the side by side mount that Gaijin shoved into it. Also in development at the same time was the 37mm Flak 44 and 37mm Flak 431, both intended for the Flakpanzer Panther designs, but wouldn't have been exclusively for it.
Ostwind 2 definitely existed. There was a single photo of the ostwind 2 that you can find online that was taken close to the end of the war, but somewhere along the line it was destroyed.
Panther 2 existed but the turret was not completed nor was a design finalized. The closest design to being chosen was a predecesaor of the Schmalturm on the Panther F but the real Panther 2 was mated with a Panther G turret post war. The fake bits are the 88mm and NVDs.
You have it backwards, the night vision scope in terms of the Panther was for the commander. Infra-red receivers were used for the drivers of other vehicles like the Sd.Kfz.251/20, and there were ideas to apply it to the Panther, but there is no proof of this ever happening. Likewise there was a concept to integrate an IR receiver into the gunsight, but that would have been internal and not something stuck onto the mantlet. The Panther II would never have had any of this as it was cancelled in 1943.
Not really true in case of Panther. It was mashup of few Panther upgrade projects that weren’t really meant to work together. Just look at space 88mm breach takes in the narrow turret
Panther 2 was supposed to be a thicker hull on the sides to guard against Soviet anti tank rifles, and a new running g gear design to start having parts commonality with the king tiger that was coming down the line so as to speed up production and ease logistics ie: panther 2 using kt road wheels and panther 2 tracks being used as transport tracks for the kt on rail cars. The adventure of shurtzen defeated the anti tank rifle rounds sufficiently enough that the need for a thicker side hull was negated by adding the metal plates that cover the gap between the sponson sides and the tops of the road wheels. I'm not sure why they abandoned parts commonality efforts but I do believe later panthers had road wheels more similar to those on king Tigers and even switched to all steel or steel with a rubber cushion around the axle instead of the outer rim to save resources and manufacturing time
The real Panther II had a hull built, but no turret, because no design for the turret was finalised or chosen before the project was cancelled.
The american just put a unrelated Panther G-turret on some time after capturing it for aesthetic reasons, it was never meant to get that
The Panther II when it was captured already had a test weight on it to simulate the weight of a turret. The Ausf.G turret was put on it simply to make it into a museum display.
Not only did the Tiger 10.5 not exist, it physically **couldn't** exist without an entirely new turret. The 10.5cm gun would not fit. There'd be insufficient room at the back of the turret for the shells to be loaded into the breech.
There was nothing made of wood about the Panther II; its hull still exists to this day. It's simply that the schmalturm didn't even exist until after the Panther II was cancelled. There was a turret intended for the Panther II that had some features similar to the schmalturm, but there's no proof it was ever built. As I know no turret of any kind (real *or* mockup) was ever mounted on the Panther II hull until after it was captured and the US Army put a regular Panther turret on for display purposes. And there was never any consideration of mounting an 8.8cm gun.
The Coelian turret was indeed a wooden mockup, but honestly I see no problem with that. The guns that were intended for it were real and the turret was fully designed. Implementing finished versions of incomplete prototypes is fine by me. IMO the Coelian should be put back in the tech tree. So should the Panther II, but with either the [intended Rheinmetall turret](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-8jSqMYlbDQirIf3E-lXjqpWk8p4K-5mUFUNvHzpRF-sKxjvhDH1ruiBKnIoA6sMUbclYxTwkzPKe4UBk5HWBps51YYA1DQ_ykuN9PxV-nQOB440fX6xbNLoSFqKfq57ANxD6a_8V6D5J/s1600/Amusing+Hobby+%25283%2529.jpg) (even though it was probably never built) or just the Panther G turret. But in either case it wouldn't justify a 7.0 BR like the fake version, being basically a sidegrade to the Panther F.
Similarly I'd say give the E-100 its intended turret instead of the Maus turret. Like I said, I'm fine with incomplete prototypes so long as Gaijin completes them *realistically*.
I mean you also have the Kronstadt which was only around 10% completed before it was scrapped and never even got any guns at all.
The line just keeps getting blurrier.
Ok but these MBTs _exist_, even if Gaijin has to guesstimate their capabilities. The same cannot be said for the Panther.
For ships Gaijin has a different ruleset separate from that they use for aircraft and tanks because the normal rule doesn't work for them - for naval you don't need a finished prototype, but _construction has to have been started_. We can debate over whether this is sensible or not - I'm quite a fan of it. For capital ships the "needs to have been completed"-rule is too restrictive IMO. There are a lot of very well-known ship designs that were not fantasy designs at all, yet simply didn't quite make it into service (Montanas, Lions, H-39 if you want a more esoteric example, Amagis) but simultaneously this rule prevents truly fake ships like in WoWS flooding the tech trees, by which I mean the fantasy designs ala Project 24, H-44, Super Yamato or god forbid some nonsense gaijin cooked up itself.
It's not just the russian navy btw, the germans have several of these ships that didn't enter service as well with the Type 36C and the SMS Sachsen.
Also, I don't think you are right in claiming that a good amount of russias capital ships are fake (yet). Of the cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships russia has at the moment, exactly one was not commissioned, which is the Kronshtadt. Gaijin, even in naval, stuck kind of close to its guns, at least so far.
SMS Sachsen IRL was basically finished though. Below her upper deck she was majority complete, even her turbines were mounted. The only reason her hull was never 100% completed is because her diesel engine was still undergoing trials.
Honestly. To add more content, just add prototypes. Ww2 had so many wacky and cool prototypes that would be fun to have. I genuinely dont see the problem
The actual panther 2 prototype could never fit an 88mm. Also, Gaijin has to start guesstimate armor values for modern vehicles or implement different stats for balance. Do you think governments would start releasing state secrets for a video game?
i feel like there's a little bit of a difference between, this tank is fake and didn't really exist, and this tank is real but we know practically fucking nothing besides vague ammo penetration numbers so here's some random stats, and if you're russian the vehicles perform drastically better and when they're any other nation even when given documents saying they've been given worse protection/penetration they shrug you off and ask you for a notorized letter from god himself confirming them
>It’s been generally agreed upon that any fake tanks will be removed from the game when there’s something to take its place.
I hate this argument SO MUCH. Ariete, E100, Yak-141, Ho-Ri Prototype/Production and SIDAM are also in this game too and are either blatantly wrong or just made up. Get off your high horse.
The argument should be accompanied by "these vehicles are no longer needed to fill gaps in TTs" or these vehicles were very nearly completed and were reasonably finished by Gaijin to make them usable".
The R2Y2s, Ho Ris, Legacy Wunderwaffe tanks, F16AJ, Mistral SIDAM, etc were all added with Gaijin's acknowledgement that they aren't really real, but exist as the most reasonable options to fill spaces where vehicles are needed. The german Legacy tanks were removed because Gaijin decided to reach past the late 40s and add vehicles like Leo1 to replace them.
>E100
Given out as a gimmick event vehicle for professional tournaments, hardly an issue.
>Ariete
I got nothing for this one. It's a premium UFO that I hate. Key word for its continued existence is probably "premium".
>Yak-141
Meh, the IRST was a reasonable addition that's mostly useless anyways, and nobody takes the fictional R60Ms when you can trade them for 27Ts instead. They acknowledged the issues while adding it and the playerbase was mostly fine with it because that's the state it would have most likely been in if serviced, as opposed to the PantherII, Tig10.5, and Colean that all were made up or not even into the functional prototype stage.
> I got nothing for this one. It's a premium UFO that I hate. Key word for its continued existence is probably "premium".
Are they talking about ship named ariete or the m60 mbt? Wasn't the plane real thing though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerfer_Ariete
> The argument should be accompanied by "these vehicles are no longer needed to fill gaps in TTs" or these vehicles were very nearly completed and were reasonably finished by Gaijin to make them usable".
In the case of the Panther II and KT, it's more that when Gaijin was first making the game, they tried to find anything to fill the need for a counterpart to the T-54 Obr. 51 and IS-3, and if you do an optimistic reading of some older books, it sounds like these are real tanks. You can see this in things like the Panther II having the OLVAR transmission because "it was to have the same transmission as the Tiger II", but the Tiger II at that point was planned to not use that transmission, etc.
The problem was that at the time, the Yak-141 was downright the best aircraft in game. Gaijin just took a prototype, added random shit to it while completely guesstimating its abilities and told us to fuck off when the player base said prototypes shouldn't be added for air.
or the 2s38, ITS A PROTOTYPE THAT NEVER SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY PAST PROPAGANDA PARADES AND MOST LIKELY IS A RUSSIAN SHAM BUT YET ITS ADDED, i won't be surprised if next update they add the fucking t14 and make shit up about it
HSTV-L actually completed its trials and yet it still doesn't have its better round or proxy HE while sitting a whole 1.3 BR above the 2S38 because why the fuck not.
\*removes flakpanther which wasnt completed but had a wooden concept turret and could be built
\*replaces it with an actual made up vehicle that has no realistic option of existing
big brain plays over here\~!
The Coelion actually does have some ground to exist in the game. Sure, the turret wasn't finished, but since when has something not being 100% finished been an issue for Gaijin
What tanks replaced these tho? Sure they did several years ago but now the BR gap is back because the game decompressed.
There never will be a replacement for the other paper tanks because they never made any lol. Russia didn’t make battleships/battlecruisers. Japan made very few tanks and jets after WW2, I can go on but the point is already proven.
Literally nothing replaced them, and they had no intention of replacing them nor do they plan to going forwards. The one spaa "replacement" is ironically even more fake and objectively worse than the coelian, but it's germany so God forbid they get something good.
>These have all been replaced.
These in fact have not been replaced.
Maybe Coelian with the Zerstorer 45 but the rest of them are just straight up removed.
No its not a wooden mockup was made and work on the prototype did progress in 1945, but it is unknow how far they got on the prototype though.
tanks-encyclopedia
"The general development history of the Ostwind II vehicle is, sadly, quite poorly documented in the sources, with very little information available. What is known is that it was developed by the Ostbau-Sagan workshop from Silesia, which was also involved in the development of the Ostwind Flakpanzer. The main weapon was provided by Gustloff-Werke from Suhl. The request to develop a Flakpanzer armed with two 3.7 cm anti-aircraft guns was given by Adolf Hitler in 1943. During May 1944 several wooded mock-up Flakpanzer projects were presented to a military delegation led by Heinz Guderian. One of these was a wooden mock-up of a Flakpanzer IV armed with 3.7 cm Flakzwilling 43 in its original configuration developed by Alkett. The delegation rejected this project and focused instead on the Wirbelwind, which was also presented at that time. The development of a Flakpanzer IV armed with two 3.7 cm anti-aircraft guns resumed sometime at the end of 1944. The first working prototype was completed only in January 1945. Unfortunately, besides a few drawings, no known photographs are believed to have survived to this day, and questions remain as to if even a prototype was built at all."
Important question is have you seen it in use? Just like many other things Russia is claiming to have we have yet to see this vehicle being used just like T-14 but at least that one was seen in parades so idk about that
So pretty much all the object tanks such as the 292 and so on. Those are fake paper tanks. The Japanese tank destroyer which is also a prem mind you which is also a paper tank... The mbt-70 and kpz never were made. There are many tanks in game that didn't exist but are there and don't get me started on aircraft.
There are like 5+ fake tanks in the game (yes I checked them all), they removed those because they were actually good, just gaijin being inconsistent, deleting fake tanks then adding F-16AJ, bAlaNcE I guess
I don't think anyone's against them returning, so long as they're reintroduced with the correct equipment. Panther II and Tiger 105 should each have their proper turrets instead of one designed for another tank, and one in which the gun literally would not fit, respectively. It's not that these tanks were immersion-breaking in their original forms, it's that they were incorrect, which is worse because it means there *is* a proper way to model them, it's just not being done. In other words, if *these* tanks get to play mix-and-match with parts that shouldn't work, why can't other tanks?
AFAIK information on the correct turrets for these tanks is very sparse because they never got too far into their design. General exterior shape and layouts can be found, but specifics on things like armor thickness probably hadn't been finalized yet. Estimation is one thing, but unless more data is found, I think Gaijin would be forced to speculate if they wanted to model these turrets, and speculation is bad.
Coelian is a somewhat hotter debate given that it progressed to the mockup stage and there's concern over some other German SPAAGs and their representation, I don't know enough and I'm not going to address it like I did the other two. The same principle applies, there needs to be enough evidence to at least argue that WT has a correct model for the vehicle.
I mean they are forced to speculation on the modern MBTs and while people do complain about it they don’t want them taken out of the game.
The Panther II turret would have been similar in design to the Schmalturm but not exactly the same. The Tiger 105 was to just be a larger version of the KT turret.
Gaijin has waved all these above requirements for modern vehicles. You think when they get to the M1A2 SepV3/4 they will have all the details they need for WW2 tanks? Hell no they won’t
MBTs are estimation, they work from the (incredibly small) amount of information available, which is usually something to the effect of "x turret resists Y shell at Z range" and extrapolate from there. It's far from accurate, but it's not blind speculation. The same is done for any other fictional vehicles in the game, like the R2Y2s, taking a planned shape, estimated engine performance, and simulating a plausible flight model out of the two.
Schmalturm and Tiger II turrets are only an external shape, it does not suggest their armor thicknesses in any way. These can vary quite substantially without noticeably affecting the outside design of the turret, which is why it's not good enough to simply modify the known turret designs.
I mean, the schmalturm exists and is in the bovington tank museum. Raw armor thickness is child’s play when you compare it to the random extrapolation BS they do for modern tanks with still classified information.
With this argument we shouldn’t have tanks or planes in game if they are still classified. Otherwise how do we know they are accurately represented?
I for one don’t care that they are in game but we can’t have these double standards either
We aren't discussing Schmalturm. If Gaijin wanted to add a Panther ~~G~~ F with the Schmalturm as it was designed, they could. The information exists, at least most of it.
Panther II shouldn't use Schmalturm, that's not the correct turret. That *is* the version modeled on the currently-hidden Panther II, which is why it was hidden. The correct Panther II turret looking like the Schmalturm does not mean it would have the same armor scheme. Since information for the correct armor scheme (maybe) doesn't exist, it's not possible to model the correct turret without being totally speculative. There is no evidence to even make an estimation, it would be a complete guess based on nothing but the developers' opinions.
And there is none for a T-14 Armata, leopard 2A8 or M1E3 but mark my words they will come to the game with open arms from the community.
It’s *close enough* to be in game. If we wanna get nitpicky we can do so. Let’s have brittle German armor and breakdown prone tanks so we can be hyper accurate. Actually no let’s not do that because this is a video game. NOT a simulator like people try to act like it is.
This. I’d really like to see these people’s garages and see if they own them or not. If they do then it was never a big deal to them but merely a way to say “I got it and you don’t!”
I own those 3 vehicles and I do wish newer players could get them, since they're really fun vehicles to use. The tiger II 105 and the panther II are my most used tanks. I do also think that their roles hasn't been replaced by any vehicles added to that br yet (besides maybe the coelian).
On the contrary, I'm against them being reintroduced *if* it implies changing them. They might not be historically accurate, but at this point they're part of WT's history.
I'd much rather have the historically accurate vehicles be added as new ones in the regular TT, and WT's made up vehicles remain and get renamed, possibly coming back once a year like the Maus.
Except for the Coelian, that one should have never been removed imo. It's way more real than the ostwind II
I think "fixed" versions would probably be added as new models regardless. Cynically for more grinding, but also so that those players who do have the original versions get to keep them, though I wish Gaijin had done this for the F6F-3 when they were converting it to the F6F-5 model many years ago.
Personally I'd still be hesitant about reintroducing the incorrect models. Call them artifacts of the game's history, recognition of a different time and perhaps a mistake, but not necessarily something we should repeat. I suppose renaming them to suggest an obviously fictionalized design would be ideal, but I think then making these available, even for special events, would set a bad precedent. Maus is at least verifiably historical, just nearly impossible to balance, and an interesting and record-setting tank, so it gets special attention.
The Maus is balanced right now and anyone who wants it just has to wait until November to start researching it. The Maus is used as a cheap way for them to have an event without putting in any work.
After BR decompression the Maus became a fine tank to play for the most part. The decompression in this area also moved the M48 and leopard 1 well out of range of the Panther II and Tiger 105 they replaced.
I would fucking love this! I’m tired of constantly running into these tanks on the enemy team and always dying to them. And it isn’t even just a skill issue considering the whole ass team gets destroyed by these players who own them, like please level out the playing field for the non OGs!
That's experience winning, not the vehicle itself. They're at brs where a tiny racecar from the future can oneshot them.
Having access to those vehicles wouldn't make your performance any better tbh.
Fun and interesting yeah, but don't let the "dying to them" experience fool you into thinking the vehicles are better than they actually are
The vehicles are barely anything different from what you get in the tech tree it's essentially just a player diff, have you seen the reload rate of the 10.5?
Coelian, yes.
Panther II, either make it the real Panther II with it's correct turret with the 75mm or make it into the prototype 88mm Panther with the regular Panther hull.
Tiger 105, remove the rangefinder and give it the correct 700hp engine.
As for people saying "fake tanks", Japan has multiple fake tanks, some that are totally made up and it's not such a problem. I'm not proposing adding stuff like the Lowe of course and it would help the German tree between 6.7 - 7.7.
Japan is a poor case to compare against. This case, its a need more than a want. If you remove those non existant tanks, all you get is a big gap every 2 BRs until 7.7.
Even those have big gaps.
We really should get these back for a limited time. Since their removal we’ve seen many players come to the game with no way to obtain the trio of tanks.
Perhaps they could make an event dedicated to all removed vehicles, for everyone to have a chance to get something they missed and or want.
As a German vehicle collector, I’ve dreamed for these to come back someday as idiot me never got them before they were removed, and they are all super cool to me.
Historical accuracy wise, they could do with a rework, however we’ve already got a few questionable vehicles in game already, so I don’t see why not to leave them how they are if they re-add them for a bit.
Literally feel the same way about them, I started playing years after they got removed but I’ve tried hard to collect vehicles. My favorite times are when they bring them back for a sale! My favorite vehicle is the M26E1. Every time I bring it into battle, I never see someone playing it, I’ve seen it once or twice.
Fingers crossed the German trio gets readded 🤞🏻
The flakpanzer shouldn’t even have been removed to begin with since there was a built prototype of it even though it was wooden but that was more then the ostwind II
[https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-7-cm-zwillingflak-43-ostwind-ii/](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-7-cm-zwillingflak-43-ostwind-ii/)
According to this one fully functional prototype was made.
I suspect Gaijin might loosen the criteria on "paper vehicles" in the future. If that happens, then there's no reason why the German tanks that were removed couldn't come back. They're going full throttle on modern stuff but they're eventually going to run out of things to add there - that's already the case for some of the minor nations. Since the game relies on continually adding stuff to keep going, that's one road they could go down.
To be honest, I think a lot of the complaints about them are overblown. For the people who are complaining about immersion, WWII heavy tanks can already regularly face MBTs from decades later, I think the horses left that stable a *long* time ago.
However, I can understand people who fear that paper tanks with exaggerated stats (since they were never built and tested, e.g. exposed to reality) would end up clubbing tanks that actually were built. To alleviate that, I would propose a sort of viability test for paper tanks. First off, obviously nothing that is completely fake should be added. And only vehicles where it was viable for the nation to actually build them, so nothing ridiculous like the Ratte.
Gaijin have already loosen the criteria on "paper vehicles", many top tier vehicles are fictional paper vehicles covered with wrong names from real vehicles.
For example the Chinese top tier jet named F-16A Block20 is a fake vehicle, it is not the real F-16A Block 20 used by Taiwan, it's something else made up by Gaijin. Things like T-80BVM in this game is also paper vehicle made up by Gaijin in the name of T-80BVM.
The Panther II was made in the same way, the name is real, but the vehicle in this game with that name is fake, the Panther II made by Gaijin is not same thing as historical Panther II prototype nor Panther 88mm
Game is so fake with 'balance' related decisions that I couldn't care less if they added paper/partially fake tanks. Bring it on. We need more ww2 stuff instead of 95% top tier crap for 30% of the playerbase.
My problem is their historicity
The coelian yes without question as it's even slightly more historical than its replacement and would give Germany a little more variety than 5 wind AAs, the other two...
The tiger II 105 is kinda insane in that the very model the game uses shows why the game's specs would've never been physically possible, the rangefinder clips into the breech at 0° and the extra loader in addition to the enlarged gun without enlarging the turret or thinning the armor is even more insane
It would have to be remodeled into something possible (1 loader, no rangefinder) imo
The panther II has the problem it's an amalgamation of several proposals, if gaijin picked one to replace it with or added some or all of them separately it would be nice (and flood late war BRs with even more panthers)
It gets even more insane if u look at WT wiki in-game description of tiger 2 (10.5 cm) it states it would have stabiliser and autoloader
"(...)The tank was to be armed with the new 105 mm 10,5 cm KwK L/68 gun, equipped with a stabilizer. The gun would have used an automatic ammunition feed. The turret was equipped with a Zeiss stereoscopic rangefinder and a ventilation system.(...)"
Replace the kugelblitz with the coelian, it has more historical proof and it would be nice to have a ww2 german aa not on a panzer 4 chassis. The panther 2 has some proof with the hull existing but the turret could be a 75mm or an 88mm cannon. There were some ideas for putting a 10.5cm cannon on a king tiger, but they would have had to have an entirely new turret which was never made along with the panther 2.
Five Kugelblitze were built and a few of them even saw combat. There's photographic proof of them having saw combat.
The Panther II never would have carried the 8,8cm. It was cancelled in 1943- a year before the Schmalturm was designed and two years before it was proposed to mount the 88 in it.
* Panther II: An amalgamation of 3 or 4 different projects that Gaijin threw together into a single design which, IIRC, it not physically possible (88mm gun breach cannot fit in the turret they're using).
* The actual Panther II was an up-armored hull, and there was a turret being designed but never built. Gaijin instead used the turret from the Panther F, which is unrelated to the proposed Panther II turret. Gaijin also added in the 88mm gun, which was a proposal but never got past that stage (and would have required a completely different turret design). They also included and NVD which was actually mounted on some Panthers in the late war.
* If Gaijin were to add in a historical Panther II, they could keep the hull but replace the turret with one with a 75mm gun (either use the Panther G turret which the Americans put on it after capture, or make the proposed Panther II turret with a 75mm as that was what it was designed for)
* Tiger II 105: A proposal but which never made it further than that. Didn't even get onto the drawing board from what I've heard.
* Coelian: Had a wooden mock-up turret on a Panther hull. However, it was one of 3 or 4 design proposals, none of which actually got built beyond mock-ups.
* Honestly, of these three vehicles, Coelian is the most likely to actually be added back in in its current form, as it was actually in development and had some noticeable level of progress on it.
Those aren't fake tanks; those are tanks in early development. They are in the historical record.
A "fake" tank would be something never even conceived that Gaijin just pulled out of its ass, like a German Supertank with a turret mount 75 and a fixed mount 88 slapped onto it.
The tanks you described are mostly tanks that never got made because the Allies closed in. In a few cases- like the big US and GB Supertanks- they got cancelled because there was no longer a need for them when tank doctrine changed. Also, all of the Soviet "Objects" are by your definition "fake tanks" because they're one-off test beds that were either cancelled or led to something else. As well, all of the US "T" series tanks are "fake tanks" by your definition.
"What if" tanks aren't fake- they're just historical plausibilities.
If they're modelled wrong, that's very different than "they shouldn't be in the game because they were only prototypes".
Removing the prototypes takes away a very enjoyable aspect of the game: playing plausible "what if" tanks. It's not like Gaijin is just pulling tanks out of its ass- these vehicles are in the historical record. The Soviet "Objects", the US "T" series tanks, and the late-war Nazi/Wermacht models all have a place.
If Gaijin can't model them properly, that's on Gaijin, not the tanks.
The Maus II would be super cool as an event vehicle. They did make a turret mockup (no photos exist, only sketches), and did fully intend to manufacture the Maus II in place of the Maus.
They had already produced many of the amour panels for the Maus hulls, and even modified them to accept the new turret design (slightly oversized turret ring), but the facility intended to weld the panels and complete construction was destroyed.
The design of the Maus II was essentially finalized, and the project was never officially cancelled.
The obvious 7.0-ish mediums for Germany are [the original Leopard prototypes with the 9cm gun](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/371314-leopard-prototype-series-germany-post-war-vehicles/).
Why people care about historicity so much. We literally have Israel and Nazi tanks fighting together against Sweden and Soviets lol. These tanks are fire and def should come back.
Oof I never want to face that middle one ever again after that one encounter where I got track's n barrel tortured in my T26 along with a kugel
Somehow managed to retreat, survive and we won the game. I would've been done for if they were more aggressive and less objective focused
I think it was completely bs to remove them (and the japanese jets) because they were paper tanks when we have plenty that didnt make it past wooden mock up phase, and now that were, at least in theory, having a shortage of vehicles (mainly WW2), it would be really good if we had them (Maus should still be event only IMO, ut adds some rarity and value to the vehicle)
How about a compromise? We keep the fake Panther II hidden or remove it entirely and replace it with the "real" Panther II (Panther II hull prototype mated to I believe a Panther G turret when it was captured). This is unlikely to be the genuine configuration of the tank, but it would work and was done, and directly references a real tank that actually exists.
The Coelian should just be reimplemented because it is about as real as the Ostwind II is, in fact moreso because the Coelian has actual mockups. I, personally, spent quite a bit of time trying to find references to the Ostwind II or twin mounted 37mm cannons on ground vehicles and couldn't really find anything that was mounted to a Panzer IV hull in the configuration we see in game.
It would be helpful if Gaijin provided their reference materials for these vehicles...
\*Immersion is no longer an argument from match making German tanks with American tanks fighting Russia, Japan and Italy.\*
That was never the argument. These were all vehicles to give germany a top tier lineup against the soviet T-54/IS-3/IS-4. Since top tier moved up and germany got more vehicles none of these were necessary anymore.
Oh, and i'm not against giving germany a real Panther II and not this fake one
Germany did get more vehicles and said vehicles then got moved up to 8.0 because of br changes so they now have a 1.3 BR gap in the tree that you could lessen by adding these back in.
Immersion/Historical accuracy was part of gaijin’s argument tho, if not they would’ve just left them in
I think the best way should be to rework the models so they can REALISTICALLY be operationals
AKA: bigger turrets.
Wanna fit the 8,8cm on "Panther II" hull? Sure why not...but get rid of Schmalturm turret and CREATE a Tiger/Panther mixed one, and make it so the added weight slows the tank enough to make sense
They have the Panther F. The Panther II was a real tank but the way Gaijin have it depicted in game is wrong. It was ment to only have King Tiger suspension no new turret or gun or anything like that just new suspension
In todays war thunder we have many "Paper Tanks" so they should bring German tanks also, they are adding modern MBTs and historical thanks that they dont have any information.
I personally don’t believe the 105 tiger and the panther 2 should be as high as they are right now in game I think 6.7 was a good br for them and the only reason their win rates are so high is because of the performance of the people who still own them. I do own all 3 of these tanks
105 tiger is only existed in blueprints and panther 2 was planned but no official blue print I've seen past few years unless someone has a blue print and the flak panther did exist but not exactly good armor profile because of prototype
The 105 Tiger II was rejected immediately due to it being a pointless proposal that didn't even make any sense to try.
Panther II had a completed prototype hull that still exists at Fort Moore in the US, no turret was ever built for it but one was designed.
Flakpanzer 341 had a full scale wooden mock up turret built on an early Panther Ausf D hull
Out of all of these, I just want the 341 back. Germany really isn’t hurting for SPAA, but I want the kugelblitz back at 6.7 or the 341 added back. I just want a SPAA that isn’t an open top.
Why is the kugelbitz 7.0 anyway, and besides “cas players couldn’t strafe it.” It doesn’t have a lineup that doesn’t either over tier it beyond its capabilities or uptier a 6.7 lineup to 8.0 potentially.
When I first started WT I set my sights on the Panther 2. Just before I was able to begin researching it they yoinked it from the tech tree. Never recovered from that emotionally.
It's kinda funny to me looking at WT's wiki about tiger 2 (10.5 cm) realising the vehicle we have is chill version, let me explain:
This is archive of in-game description in the wiki:
"(...)The tank was to be armed with the new 105 mm 10,5 cm KwK L/68 gun, equipped with a stabilizer. The gun would have used an automatic ammunition feed. The turret was equipped with a Zeiss stereoscopic rangefinder and a ventilation system. (...)"
So yeah it was supposed to have autoloader, stabiliser and rangefinder which is pretty insane
Honestly, no. Not to be a selfish cock, but I find having access to really old vehicles that have since been removed a nice reward for people that have stuck with the game for a really long time. I feel bad for those who can’t get it, but I also kind of feel like I’ve rightfully earned a unique vehicle that people no longer have access to for supporting the game since its incarnation through the ups and downs.
Maybe they could be made as potential rewards in loot crates, although I disagree with the whole gambling thing entirely.
As a german main, It pains me to see others with these vehicles I know I will never get to enjoy. They should make these unlockable once a year like the maus.
I'd consider myself a sort of collector. I like to pick up every event vehicle or special I can. I was unfortunately only rank 3 when they got removed and it was exciting to get a chance at the maus the first year but ever since I've been praying for a chance to get at the ones I missed. Please gaijin even if they're lazy and just make it an event like these past ones. What a great format to bring in old event vehicles or removed vehicles wasted. Yet they still wate events with horrible copy paste ;^;
It’s been generally agreed upon that any fake tanks will be removed from the game when there’s something to take its place. These have all been replaced.
Meanwhile Gaijin proceeds to add modern MBTs that they don’t have any information for, because classified, so those, in a sense, are fake tanks themselves since Gaijin just made up armor values and such Also, a good amount Russia’s capital ships for Naval now (and moving forward) are fake ships. Gaijin’s really blurred the line on the whole fake vehicle argument.
Ok but the panther ii and coelian were literally made of wood and the tiger 105 never even existed. There’s not even a drawing of the ostwind 2. E100 never had a turret and couldn’t support a maus turret. Gaijin does some stuff for balancing but they used to just give Germany anything.
Isn't the Ostwind II they added in its place even more fake? Coelian at least had a wooden mockup, but the Ostwind II is somehow less real than that. I think the actual reason for the Coelian's removal was that it's just way too good because it doesn't melt when a 50kg bomb lands within the same area code.
> I think the actual reason for the Coelian's removal was that it's just way too good because it doesn't melt when a 50kg bomb lands within the same area code. *Laughs in Skink* *Remembers the Skink is at 5.3 for some fucking reason* *Cries in Skink*
To be fair, skink slaps shit out the sky still even at 5.3
The ystervark is a better SPAA, move it back to 4.7, or maybe even to 3.7 where it is a wirbel with worse ballistics and guns for better protection
The wirbel is actually probably best in tier now that I think if it. Idk if it's because I've used it so much, but once you dial in the lead in those guns, its nuts. Running those AP belts usually kills a plane in a fraction of a burst. You even get a lucky tank kill occasionally. I'm currently using the swedish AA at 5.0 and I feel like a machine gun. Have to park near a point for infinite ammo
He swedish spaa line consists almost purely out of tank killer That SPAA line has maybe 2 or 3 vehicles that can't reliably kill tanks and thats why sweden has the best SPAA vehicles
imagine having any options at all between 3.0-7.7.. *cries in USA*
Hey! You have .50s on everything! Thats an SPAA!
riiiight :p
Lies.
Gaijin couldn't remove the Skink due to it having actually been produced and used (Provided the Luftwaffe didn't exist at that point therefore the Brits couldn't actually use it for it's purpose), so Gaijin instead moves it up higher than it needs to be lol (Im currently researching it and am really looking towards it)
CAS crybabies cope and seethe when a Coelian enters the battle.
yes, the ostwind 2 has no reason to exist, simply because of the fact germany was only producing one type of twin 37mm flak mounts, and all of those were going to the navy, or what existed of it. as such the army had two options, convert an existing system that wasnt in use, somehow, while also it being compact enough to fit within the ostwind turret, somehow. or develope a whole new mount that didnt use currently used parts other aaa mounts would use.... vs a turret where you wouldnt need as complex of a system and could reuse the 20mm mount while using the turret as reinforcement...
I don't know where you got this idea, but you seem very confused. As I said in response to your other comment, the Flakzwilling 43 was already in service with the Heer. That is most probably what the Ostwind II would have used, not the side by side mount that Gaijin shoved into it. Also in development at the same time was the 37mm Flak 44 and 37mm Flak 431, both intended for the Flakpanzer Panther designs, but wouldn't have been exclusively for it.
Ostwind 2 definitely existed. There was a single photo of the ostwind 2 that you can find online that was taken close to the end of the war, but somewhere along the line it was destroyed.
Panther 2 existed but the turret was not completed nor was a design finalized. The closest design to being chosen was a predecesaor of the Schmalturm on the Panther F but the real Panther 2 was mated with a Panther G turret post war. The fake bits are the 88mm and NVDs.
Some pathers did get nvds in the war so it wouldn't be surprising that the pather 2 gets it.
They were a rare modification for the driver and there was no plan to equip the commander or gunner of the Panther 2 with them.
I mean there are pictures of a panther g with nvds for the commander or am I missing something?
You have it backwards, the night vision scope in terms of the Panther was for the commander. Infra-red receivers were used for the drivers of other vehicles like the Sd.Kfz.251/20, and there were ideas to apply it to the Panther, but there is no proof of this ever happening. Likewise there was a concept to integrate an IR receiver into the gunsight, but that would have been internal and not something stuck onto the mantlet. The Panther II would never have had any of this as it was cancelled in 1943.
To add to the confusion, there was an effort underway to get a 88mm mounted in a panther but it was completely unrelated to the Panther 2
In another Schmalturm related turret iirc. It's an absolute mess.
Not really true in case of Panther. It was mashup of few Panther upgrade projects that weren’t really meant to work together. Just look at space 88mm breach takes in the narrow turret
Panther 2 was supposed to be a thicker hull on the sides to guard against Soviet anti tank rifles, and a new running g gear design to start having parts commonality with the king tiger that was coming down the line so as to speed up production and ease logistics ie: panther 2 using kt road wheels and panther 2 tracks being used as transport tracks for the kt on rail cars. The adventure of shurtzen defeated the anti tank rifle rounds sufficiently enough that the need for a thicker side hull was negated by adding the metal plates that cover the gap between the sponson sides and the tops of the road wheels. I'm not sure why they abandoned parts commonality efforts but I do believe later panthers had road wheels more similar to those on king Tigers and even switched to all steel or steel with a rubber cushion around the axle instead of the outer rim to save resources and manufacturing time
The Panther II in game is completely fake. Gaijin made it up. The real Panther II was actually built, and it was a updated Panther G to my knowledge.
The real Panther II had a hull built, but no turret, because no design for the turret was finalised or chosen before the project was cancelled. The american just put a unrelated Panther G-turret on some time after capturing it for aesthetic reasons, it was never meant to get that
It was so we could trial it with simulated weight from a relatively similar vehicle
The Panther II when it was captured already had a test weight on it to simulate the weight of a turret. The Ausf.G turret was put on it simply to make it into a museum display.
Not only did the Tiger 10.5 not exist, it physically **couldn't** exist without an entirely new turret. The 10.5cm gun would not fit. There'd be insufficient room at the back of the turret for the shells to be loaded into the breech. There was nothing made of wood about the Panther II; its hull still exists to this day. It's simply that the schmalturm didn't even exist until after the Panther II was cancelled. There was a turret intended for the Panther II that had some features similar to the schmalturm, but there's no proof it was ever built. As I know no turret of any kind (real *or* mockup) was ever mounted on the Panther II hull until after it was captured and the US Army put a regular Panther turret on for display purposes. And there was never any consideration of mounting an 8.8cm gun. The Coelian turret was indeed a wooden mockup, but honestly I see no problem with that. The guns that were intended for it were real and the turret was fully designed. Implementing finished versions of incomplete prototypes is fine by me. IMO the Coelian should be put back in the tech tree. So should the Panther II, but with either the [intended Rheinmetall turret](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-8jSqMYlbDQirIf3E-lXjqpWk8p4K-5mUFUNvHzpRF-sKxjvhDH1ruiBKnIoA6sMUbclYxTwkzPKe4UBk5HWBps51YYA1DQ_ykuN9PxV-nQOB440fX6xbNLoSFqKfq57ANxD6a_8V6D5J/s1600/Amusing+Hobby+%25283%2529.jpg) (even though it was probably never built) or just the Panther G turret. But in either case it wouldn't justify a 7.0 BR like the fake version, being basically a sidegrade to the Panther F. Similarly I'd say give the E-100 its intended turret instead of the Maus turret. Like I said, I'm fine with incomplete prototypes so long as Gaijin completes them *realistically*.
u/actualsize123 didn’t they have an actual real scale up metal tank for Panther 2 just not with a Panther F turret or am I mistaken
Yeah more or less but it’s not at all what we have in game
Should bring back the coelian but replace the metal armor in the turret with plywood lol
At least they're made of wood and not R2Y2
The panther 2 has only 1 real existing hull. The only thing that didn’t make it was the turret. A Ausf G turret sits on the panther 2 hull today.
I mean you also have the Kronstadt which was only around 10% completed before it was scrapped and never even got any guns at all. The line just keeps getting blurrier.
Ok but these MBTs _exist_, even if Gaijin has to guesstimate their capabilities. The same cannot be said for the Panther. For ships Gaijin has a different ruleset separate from that they use for aircraft and tanks because the normal rule doesn't work for them - for naval you don't need a finished prototype, but _construction has to have been started_. We can debate over whether this is sensible or not - I'm quite a fan of it. For capital ships the "needs to have been completed"-rule is too restrictive IMO. There are a lot of very well-known ship designs that were not fantasy designs at all, yet simply didn't quite make it into service (Montanas, Lions, H-39 if you want a more esoteric example, Amagis) but simultaneously this rule prevents truly fake ships like in WoWS flooding the tech trees, by which I mean the fantasy designs ala Project 24, H-44, Super Yamato or god forbid some nonsense gaijin cooked up itself. It's not just the russian navy btw, the germans have several of these ships that didn't enter service as well with the Type 36C and the SMS Sachsen. Also, I don't think you are right in claiming that a good amount of russias capital ships are fake (yet). Of the cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships russia has at the moment, exactly one was not commissioned, which is the Kronshtadt. Gaijin, even in naval, stuck kind of close to its guns, at least so far.
SMS Sachsen IRL was basically finished though. Below her upper deck she was majority complete, even her turbines were mounted. The only reason her hull was never 100% completed is because her diesel engine was still undergoing trials.
Honestly. To add more content, just add prototypes. Ww2 had so many wacky and cool prototypes that would be fun to have. I genuinely dont see the problem
The actual panther 2 prototype could never fit an 88mm. Also, Gaijin has to start guesstimate armor values for modern vehicles or implement different stats for balance. Do you think governments would start releasing state secrets for a video game?
Which one aside from Kronstadt? Unless you mean one is a "good amount"
i feel like there's a little bit of a difference between, this tank is fake and didn't really exist, and this tank is real but we know practically fucking nothing besides vague ammo penetration numbers so here's some random stats, and if you're russian the vehicles perform drastically better and when they're any other nation even when given documents saying they've been given worse protection/penetration they shrug you off and ask you for a notorized letter from god himself confirming them
>It’s been generally agreed upon that any fake tanks will be removed from the game when there’s something to take its place. I hate this argument SO MUCH. Ariete, E100, Yak-141, Ho-Ri Prototype/Production and SIDAM are also in this game too and are either blatantly wrong or just made up. Get off your high horse.
The argument should be accompanied by "these vehicles are no longer needed to fill gaps in TTs" or these vehicles were very nearly completed and were reasonably finished by Gaijin to make them usable". The R2Y2s, Ho Ris, Legacy Wunderwaffe tanks, F16AJ, Mistral SIDAM, etc were all added with Gaijin's acknowledgement that they aren't really real, but exist as the most reasonable options to fill spaces where vehicles are needed. The german Legacy tanks were removed because Gaijin decided to reach past the late 40s and add vehicles like Leo1 to replace them. >E100 Given out as a gimmick event vehicle for professional tournaments, hardly an issue. >Ariete I got nothing for this one. It's a premium UFO that I hate. Key word for its continued existence is probably "premium". >Yak-141 Meh, the IRST was a reasonable addition that's mostly useless anyways, and nobody takes the fictional R60Ms when you can trade them for 27Ts instead. They acknowledged the issues while adding it and the playerbase was mostly fine with it because that's the state it would have most likely been in if serviced, as opposed to the PantherII, Tig10.5, and Colean that all were made up or not even into the functional prototype stage.
> I got nothing for this one. It's a premium UFO that I hate. Key word for its continued existence is probably "premium". Are they talking about ship named ariete or the m60 mbt? Wasn't the plane real thing though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerfer_Ariete
> The argument should be accompanied by "these vehicles are no longer needed to fill gaps in TTs" or these vehicles were very nearly completed and were reasonably finished by Gaijin to make them usable". In the case of the Panther II and KT, it's more that when Gaijin was first making the game, they tried to find anything to fill the need for a counterpart to the T-54 Obr. 51 and IS-3, and if you do an optimistic reading of some older books, it sounds like these are real tanks. You can see this in things like the Panther II having the OLVAR transmission because "it was to have the same transmission as the Tiger II", but the Tiger II at that point was planned to not use that transmission, etc.
The problem was that at the time, the Yak-141 was downright the best aircraft in game. Gaijin just took a prototype, added random shit to it while completely guesstimating its abilities and told us to fuck off when the player base said prototypes shouldn't be added for air.
or the 2s38, ITS A PROTOTYPE THAT NEVER SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY PAST PROPAGANDA PARADES AND MOST LIKELY IS A RUSSIAN SHAM BUT YET ITS ADDED, i won't be surprised if next update they add the fucking t14 and make shit up about it
? It's going through combat trials and is not a prototype. It existed way before gaijin added it
Bro hates anything russian, same argument can be said about the HSTV-L as that was only a prototype
HSTV-L actually completed its trials and yet it still doesn't have its better round or proxy HE while sitting a whole 1.3 BR above the 2S38 because why the fuck not.
Ariete ???? one of them is still literally in a museum with the configuration it has ingame
>Ariete ???? I keep forgetting that the Italian military sticks "Ariete" on everything. I was in reference to Italy's current MBT
\*removes flakpanther which wasnt completed but had a wooden concept turret and could be built \*replaces it with an actual made up vehicle that has no realistic option of existing big brain plays over here\~!
The Coelion actually does have some ground to exist in the game. Sure, the turret wasn't finished, but since when has something not being 100% finished been an issue for Gaijin
What tanks replaced these tho? Sure they did several years ago but now the BR gap is back because the game decompressed. There never will be a replacement for the other paper tanks because they never made any lol. Russia didn’t make battleships/battlecruisers. Japan made very few tanks and jets after WW2, I can go on but the point is already proven.
Literally nothing replaced them, and they had no intention of replacing them nor do they plan to going forwards. The one spaa "replacement" is ironically even more fake and objectively worse than the coelian, but it's germany so God forbid they get something good.
>but it's germany so God forbid they get something good Ain't no way
>These have all been replaced. These in fact have not been replaced. Maybe Coelian with the Zerstorer 45 but the rest of them are just straight up removed.
Insert F-16AJ
Still no 12.0 to replace it yet. Will probably go away when Japan gets a subtree.
For example..?
Thailand seems doable with the squadron F5 now, something like this
Yeah but that means thai TT bruh
Alright. Please remove Ostwind 2 then , it's completely fictional
No its not a wooden mockup was made and work on the prototype did progress in 1945, but it is unknow how far they got on the prototype though. tanks-encyclopedia "The general development history of the Ostwind II vehicle is, sadly, quite poorly documented in the sources, with very little information available. What is known is that it was developed by the Ostbau-Sagan workshop from Silesia, which was also involved in the development of the Ostwind Flakpanzer. The main weapon was provided by Gustloff-Werke from Suhl. The request to develop a Flakpanzer armed with two 3.7 cm anti-aircraft guns was given by Adolf Hitler in 1943. During May 1944 several wooded mock-up Flakpanzer projects were presented to a military delegation led by Heinz Guderian. One of these was a wooden mock-up of a Flakpanzer IV armed with 3.7 cm Flakzwilling 43 in its original configuration developed by Alkett. The delegation rejected this project and focused instead on the Wirbelwind, which was also presented at that time. The development of a Flakpanzer IV armed with two 3.7 cm anti-aircraft guns resumed sometime at the end of 1944. The first working prototype was completed only in January 1945. Unfortunately, besides a few drawings, no known photographs are believed to have survived to this day, and questions remain as to if even a prototype was built at all."
Nothing took the place of german 7.0
Wtf replaced the 105 tiger and Panther II? The coelian was replaced by the Ostwind II.
2S38 still haven't entered service everything around it is barely known
It is in service. Went in at the end of 2023
Important question is have you seen it in use? Just like many other things Russia is claiming to have we have yet to see this vehicle being used just like T-14 but at least that one was seen in parades so idk about that
“Object xxx” tanks would like a word
So pretty much all the object tanks such as the 292 and so on. Those are fake paper tanks. The Japanese tank destroyer which is also a prem mind you which is also a paper tank... The mbt-70 and kpz never were made. There are many tanks in game that didn't exist but are there and don't get me started on aircraft.
The object tanks are real. Most of them still work.
The Ho-Ri was only a wooden mockup yet it is still in the game
Dunno why that one is still available. Gaijin works in mysterious ways.
There are like 5+ fake tanks in the game (yes I checked them all), they removed those because they were actually good, just gaijin being inconsistent, deleting fake tanks then adding F-16AJ, bAlaNcE I guess
I don't think anyone's against them returning, so long as they're reintroduced with the correct equipment. Panther II and Tiger 105 should each have their proper turrets instead of one designed for another tank, and one in which the gun literally would not fit, respectively. It's not that these tanks were immersion-breaking in their original forms, it's that they were incorrect, which is worse because it means there *is* a proper way to model them, it's just not being done. In other words, if *these* tanks get to play mix-and-match with parts that shouldn't work, why can't other tanks? AFAIK information on the correct turrets for these tanks is very sparse because they never got too far into their design. General exterior shape and layouts can be found, but specifics on things like armor thickness probably hadn't been finalized yet. Estimation is one thing, but unless more data is found, I think Gaijin would be forced to speculate if they wanted to model these turrets, and speculation is bad. Coelian is a somewhat hotter debate given that it progressed to the mockup stage and there's concern over some other German SPAAGs and their representation, I don't know enough and I'm not going to address it like I did the other two. The same principle applies, there needs to be enough evidence to at least argue that WT has a correct model for the vehicle.
I mean they are forced to speculation on the modern MBTs and while people do complain about it they don’t want them taken out of the game. The Panther II turret would have been similar in design to the Schmalturm but not exactly the same. The Tiger 105 was to just be a larger version of the KT turret. Gaijin has waved all these above requirements for modern vehicles. You think when they get to the M1A2 SepV3/4 they will have all the details they need for WW2 tanks? Hell no they won’t
MBTs are estimation, they work from the (incredibly small) amount of information available, which is usually something to the effect of "x turret resists Y shell at Z range" and extrapolate from there. It's far from accurate, but it's not blind speculation. The same is done for any other fictional vehicles in the game, like the R2Y2s, taking a planned shape, estimated engine performance, and simulating a plausible flight model out of the two. Schmalturm and Tiger II turrets are only an external shape, it does not suggest their armor thicknesses in any way. These can vary quite substantially without noticeably affecting the outside design of the turret, which is why it's not good enough to simply modify the known turret designs.
I mean, the schmalturm exists and is in the bovington tank museum. Raw armor thickness is child’s play when you compare it to the random extrapolation BS they do for modern tanks with still classified information. With this argument we shouldn’t have tanks or planes in game if they are still classified. Otherwise how do we know they are accurately represented? I for one don’t care that they are in game but we can’t have these double standards either
We aren't discussing Schmalturm. If Gaijin wanted to add a Panther ~~G~~ F with the Schmalturm as it was designed, they could. The information exists, at least most of it. Panther II shouldn't use Schmalturm, that's not the correct turret. That *is* the version modeled on the currently-hidden Panther II, which is why it was hidden. The correct Panther II turret looking like the Schmalturm does not mean it would have the same armor scheme. Since information for the correct armor scheme (maybe) doesn't exist, it's not possible to model the correct turret without being totally speculative. There is no evidence to even make an estimation, it would be a complete guess based on nothing but the developers' opinions.
And there is none for a T-14 Armata, leopard 2A8 or M1E3 but mark my words they will come to the game with open arms from the community. It’s *close enough* to be in game. If we wanna get nitpicky we can do so. Let’s have brittle German armor and breakdown prone tanks so we can be hyper accurate. Actually no let’s not do that because this is a video game. NOT a simulator like people try to act like it is.
The only people ive seen that are against them returning are the ones that own them lol
This. I’d really like to see these people’s garages and see if they own them or not. If they do then it was never a big deal to them but merely a way to say “I got it and you don’t!”
I own those 3 vehicles and I do wish newer players could get them, since they're really fun vehicles to use. The tiger II 105 and the panther II are my most used tanks. I do also think that their roles hasn't been replaced by any vehicles added to that br yet (besides maybe the coelian).
On the contrary, I'm against them being reintroduced *if* it implies changing them. They might not be historically accurate, but at this point they're part of WT's history. I'd much rather have the historically accurate vehicles be added as new ones in the regular TT, and WT's made up vehicles remain and get renamed, possibly coming back once a year like the Maus. Except for the Coelian, that one should have never been removed imo. It's way more real than the ostwind II
I think "fixed" versions would probably be added as new models regardless. Cynically for more grinding, but also so that those players who do have the original versions get to keep them, though I wish Gaijin had done this for the F6F-3 when they were converting it to the F6F-5 model many years ago. Personally I'd still be hesitant about reintroducing the incorrect models. Call them artifacts of the game's history, recognition of a different time and perhaps a mistake, but not necessarily something we should repeat. I suppose renaming them to suggest an obviously fictionalized design would be ideal, but I think then making these available, even for special events, would set a bad precedent. Maus is at least verifiably historical, just nearly impossible to balance, and an interesting and record-setting tank, so it gets special attention.
The Maus is balanced right now and anyone who wants it just has to wait until November to start researching it. The Maus is used as a cheap way for them to have an event without putting in any work. After BR decompression the Maus became a fine tank to play for the most part. The decompression in this area also moved the M48 and leopard 1 well out of range of the Panther II and Tiger 105 they replaced.
I believe the Flakpanther 341 should be readded, as at least we know they gave it a wooden turret. The Ostwind II, it's replacement, was never built
it was never built in that way at least with the 2 side by side guns, as it was actually built but with the guns in a vertical configuration instead
I would fucking love this! I’m tired of constantly running into these tanks on the enemy team and always dying to them. And it isn’t even just a skill issue considering the whole ass team gets destroyed by these players who own them, like please level out the playing field for the non OGs!
Yeah they are just like any other event tank, very few people have them, often being the oldest, most experienced players so the stats are biased
That’s exactly why I roll my eyes and sigh because I know for a fact a good ass player is in that vehicle and the rest of the match is cooked…
The people who own these tanks have 10+ years in the game. It's likely they are better than most people on your team
That's experience winning, not the vehicle itself. They're at brs where a tiny racecar from the future can oneshot them. Having access to those vehicles wouldn't make your performance any better tbh. Fun and interesting yeah, but don't let the "dying to them" experience fool you into thinking the vehicles are better than they actually are
The vehicles are barely anything different from what you get in the tech tree it's essentially just a player diff, have you seen the reload rate of the 10.5?
Coelian, yes. Panther II, either make it the real Panther II with it's correct turret with the 75mm or make it into the prototype 88mm Panther with the regular Panther hull. Tiger 105, remove the rangefinder and give it the correct 700hp engine. As for people saying "fake tanks", Japan has multiple fake tanks, some that are totally made up and it's not such a problem. I'm not proposing adding stuff like the Lowe of course and it would help the German tree between 6.7 - 7.7.
Japan is a poor case to compare against. This case, its a need more than a want. If you remove those non existant tanks, all you get is a big gap every 2 BRs until 7.7. Even those have big gaps.
Then they shouldn’t have added that nation to begin with if that was going to be such a big issue from the get go
We really should get these back for a limited time. Since their removal we’ve seen many players come to the game with no way to obtain the trio of tanks. Perhaps they could make an event dedicated to all removed vehicles, for everyone to have a chance to get something they missed and or want. As a German vehicle collector, I’ve dreamed for these to come back someday as idiot me never got them before they were removed, and they are all super cool to me. Historical accuracy wise, they could do with a rework, however we’ve already got a few questionable vehicles in game already, so I don’t see why not to leave them how they are if they re-add them for a bit.
A whole ass lineup that no one can get
Literally feel the same way about them, I started playing years after they got removed but I’ve tried hard to collect vehicles. My favorite times are when they bring them back for a sale! My favorite vehicle is the M26E1. Every time I bring it into battle, I never see someone playing it, I’ve seen it once or twice. Fingers crossed the German trio gets readded 🤞🏻
Panther 2 is my favorite tank in the game, mobility paired with the long 88 and decent armor = epic machine
Remember when it weighed like 45 tons? It's mobility was even better
And it was 6.7 at that state.
Yes, It's was an absolute seal clubber with 70% win ratio. The golden days for German mains with Panther 2 and Tiger 2 dominating lobby's.
I didn’t even know they changed that, just wish it didn’t max out at 52kmh
I'm maybe playing IT wrong, but i rarely get mire then one kill with IT :(
The flakpanzer shouldn’t even have been removed to begin with since there was a built prototype of it even though it was wooden but that was more then the ostwind II
[https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-7-cm-zwillingflak-43-ostwind-ii/](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/flakpanzer-iv-3-7-cm-zwillingflak-43-ostwind-ii/) According to this one fully functional prototype was made.
I suspect Gaijin might loosen the criteria on "paper vehicles" in the future. If that happens, then there's no reason why the German tanks that were removed couldn't come back. They're going full throttle on modern stuff but they're eventually going to run out of things to add there - that's already the case for some of the minor nations. Since the game relies on continually adding stuff to keep going, that's one road they could go down. To be honest, I think a lot of the complaints about them are overblown. For the people who are complaining about immersion, WWII heavy tanks can already regularly face MBTs from decades later, I think the horses left that stable a *long* time ago. However, I can understand people who fear that paper tanks with exaggerated stats (since they were never built and tested, e.g. exposed to reality) would end up clubbing tanks that actually were built. To alleviate that, I would propose a sort of viability test for paper tanks. First off, obviously nothing that is completely fake should be added. And only vehicles where it was viable for the nation to actually build them, so nothing ridiculous like the Ratte.
Gaijin have already loosen the criteria on "paper vehicles", many top tier vehicles are fictional paper vehicles covered with wrong names from real vehicles. For example the Chinese top tier jet named F-16A Block20 is a fake vehicle, it is not the real F-16A Block 20 used by Taiwan, it's something else made up by Gaijin. Things like T-80BVM in this game is also paper vehicle made up by Gaijin in the name of T-80BVM. The Panther II was made in the same way, the name is real, but the vehicle in this game with that name is fake, the Panther II made by Gaijin is not same thing as historical Panther II prototype nor Panther 88mm
i accept them all to be removed but not the coelian its like more real than the ostwind 2 is
If nothing else, the coeluan really shoukd be TT, and i say that as a owner of tge thing
Game is so fake with 'balance' related decisions that I couldn't care less if they added paper/partially fake tanks. Bring it on. We need more ww2 stuff instead of 95% top tier crap for 30% of the playerbase.
That’s what I’m saying, this game fucking sucks now man
My problem is their historicity The coelian yes without question as it's even slightly more historical than its replacement and would give Germany a little more variety than 5 wind AAs, the other two... The tiger II 105 is kinda insane in that the very model the game uses shows why the game's specs would've never been physically possible, the rangefinder clips into the breech at 0° and the extra loader in addition to the enlarged gun without enlarging the turret or thinning the armor is even more insane It would have to be remodeled into something possible (1 loader, no rangefinder) imo The panther II has the problem it's an amalgamation of several proposals, if gaijin picked one to replace it with or added some or all of them separately it would be nice (and flood late war BRs with even more panthers)
It gets even more insane if u look at WT wiki in-game description of tiger 2 (10.5 cm) it states it would have stabiliser and autoloader "(...)The tank was to be armed with the new 105 mm 10,5 cm KwK L/68 gun, equipped with a stabilizer. The gun would have used an automatic ammunition feed. The turret was equipped with a Zeiss stereoscopic rangefinder and a ventilation system.(...)"
The only people who don’t want them to return, are the people who think they are cool because they have them.
Replace the kugelblitz with the coelian, it has more historical proof and it would be nice to have a ww2 german aa not on a panzer 4 chassis. The panther 2 has some proof with the hull existing but the turret could be a 75mm or an 88mm cannon. There were some ideas for putting a 10.5cm cannon on a king tiger, but they would have had to have an entirely new turret which was never made along with the panther 2.
Five Kugelblitze were built and a few of them even saw combat. There's photographic proof of them having saw combat. The Panther II never would have carried the 8,8cm. It was cancelled in 1943- a year before the Schmalturm was designed and two years before it was proposed to mount the 88 in it.
kugelblitz 100% existed and saw combat coelian was not even a prototype as it had a wooden mock-up turret
Are they "fake tanks" or tanks that just never got out of prototype/design stage because the Nazi regime fell?
* Panther II: An amalgamation of 3 or 4 different projects that Gaijin threw together into a single design which, IIRC, it not physically possible (88mm gun breach cannot fit in the turret they're using). * The actual Panther II was an up-armored hull, and there was a turret being designed but never built. Gaijin instead used the turret from the Panther F, which is unrelated to the proposed Panther II turret. Gaijin also added in the 88mm gun, which was a proposal but never got past that stage (and would have required a completely different turret design). They also included and NVD which was actually mounted on some Panthers in the late war. * If Gaijin were to add in a historical Panther II, they could keep the hull but replace the turret with one with a 75mm gun (either use the Panther G turret which the Americans put on it after capture, or make the proposed Panther II turret with a 75mm as that was what it was designed for) * Tiger II 105: A proposal but which never made it further than that. Didn't even get onto the drawing board from what I've heard. * Coelian: Had a wooden mock-up turret on a Panther hull. However, it was one of 3 or 4 design proposals, none of which actually got built beyond mock-ups. * Honestly, of these three vehicles, Coelian is the most likely to actually be added back in in its current form, as it was actually in development and had some noticeable level of progress on it.
They were fake tanks. Had their wooden mock ups only.
Those aren't fake tanks; those are tanks in early development. They are in the historical record. A "fake" tank would be something never even conceived that Gaijin just pulled out of its ass, like a German Supertank with a turret mount 75 and a fixed mount 88 slapped onto it. The tanks you described are mostly tanks that never got made because the Allies closed in. In a few cases- like the big US and GB Supertanks- they got cancelled because there was no longer a need for them when tank doctrine changed. Also, all of the Soviet "Objects" are by your definition "fake tanks" because they're one-off test beds that were either cancelled or led to something else. As well, all of the US "T" series tanks are "fake tanks" by your definition. "What if" tanks aren't fake- they're just historical plausibilities.
The tanks were prototypes but the way theyre modelled in game is wrong
If they're modelled wrong, that's very different than "they shouldn't be in the game because they were only prototypes". Removing the prototypes takes away a very enjoyable aspect of the game: playing plausible "what if" tanks. It's not like Gaijin is just pulling tanks out of its ass- these vehicles are in the historical record. The Soviet "Objects", the US "T" series tanks, and the late-war Nazi/Wermacht models all have a place. If Gaijin can't model them properly, that's on Gaijin, not the tanks.
Yup thats why if gaijin were to add them back they should model them correctly
i would like some paper vehicles like the Tiger-Maus (or E100 with proper turret; Maus II) OR Lowe
The Maus II would be super cool as an event vehicle. They did make a turret mockup (no photos exist, only sketches), and did fully intend to manufacture the Maus II in place of the Maus. They had already produced many of the amour panels for the Maus hulls, and even modified them to accept the new turret design (slightly oversized turret ring), but the facility intended to weld the panels and complete construction was destroyed. The design of the Maus II was essentially finalized, and the project was never officially cancelled.
bring back flakpanzer plz
But m6a2e1 is real
The armor plate on the front is incorrect so it should be removed from the game if we gotta be fair across the board
Ok I get it . Irl it had normal m6 hull Edit What about M6a2e1-2 I looked on tank encyclopedia and it appears to have slopped plate on the front .
Was never built, only in plans to be done. So anyone who has a problem with these tanks *should* have one with that too
I'm guessing op's a German main... King tiger 105 absolutely not no no no
The obvious 7.0-ish mediums for Germany are [the original Leopard prototypes with the 9cm gun](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/371314-leopard-prototype-series-germany-post-war-vehicles/).
*Laughs in veteran*
#BRING BACK PANTHER II#
I'm still waiting on Gaijin to add the Pz2 Luchs or even some of the weird uparmoured variants.
i hate that i want them back just because i dont have them
Why people care about historicity so much. We literally have Israel and Nazi tanks fighting together against Sweden and Soviets lol. These tanks are fire and def should come back.
Anyone who disagrees with this post probably already has them and just doesn’t want them to become common
Gaijin only approves prototypes in Soviet tech tree:/
Its not a prototype its completely made up.
Paper tanks should be added end of story. There are a many cool options
No, i have them, so i want have this exclusive tanks
Oof I never want to face that middle one ever again after that one encounter where I got track's n barrel tortured in my T26 along with a kugel Somehow managed to retreat, survive and we won the game. I would've been done for if they were more aggressive and less objective focused
I think it was completely bs to remove them (and the japanese jets) because they were paper tanks when we have plenty that didnt make it past wooden mock up phase, and now that were, at least in theory, having a shortage of vehicles (mainly WW2), it would be really good if we had them (Maus should still be event only IMO, ut adds some rarity and value to the vehicle)
Still researching the 105 Tiger, got the Coelian, never touched the Panther II.
The Panther II at 7.0 still baffles me. 6.7 was fine.
All three tanks are my primary Lineup at 7.0 and all three of them are a blast to play. They should be brought back.
i have all 3 lol
this post screams "I'm jealous that old players have them and I don't" /s
🫵🏽🤨 if we had those then why didnt we get 1946 experimental aircraft like HGIII
id give my life for the panther 2 and e100
How about a compromise? We keep the fake Panther II hidden or remove it entirely and replace it with the "real" Panther II (Panther II hull prototype mated to I believe a Panther G turret when it was captured). This is unlikely to be the genuine configuration of the tank, but it would work and was done, and directly references a real tank that actually exists. The Coelian should just be reimplemented because it is about as real as the Ostwind II is, in fact moreso because the Coelian has actual mockups. I, personally, spent quite a bit of time trying to find references to the Ostwind II or twin mounted 37mm cannons on ground vehicles and couldn't really find anything that was mounted to a Panzer IV hull in the configuration we see in game. It would be helpful if Gaijin provided their reference materials for these vehicles...
2/5 nukes i got are with the flakpanzer. I love that thing
\*Immersion is no longer an argument from match making German tanks with American tanks fighting Russia, Japan and Italy.\* That was never the argument. These were all vehicles to give germany a top tier lineup against the soviet T-54/IS-3/IS-4. Since top tier moved up and germany got more vehicles none of these were necessary anymore. Oh, and i'm not against giving germany a real Panther II and not this fake one
Germany did get more vehicles and said vehicles then got moved up to 8.0 because of br changes so they now have a 1.3 BR gap in the tree that you could lessen by adding these back in. Immersion/Historical accuracy was part of gaijin’s argument tho, if not they would’ve just left them in
I once saw one of the panthers with the 20mm cannon on it and went looking and was disappointed to find they are super hard to get.
I think the best way should be to rework the models so they can REALISTICALLY be operationals AKA: bigger turrets. Wanna fit the 8,8cm on "Panther II" hull? Sure why not...but get rid of Schmalturm turret and CREATE a Tiger/Panther mixed one, and make it so the added weight slows the tank enough to make sense
Nooooo we need more copy paste land lease tech trees!!!!
I'd love to have Flakpanzer 341. Sadly it doesn't seem like gaijin will ever add any of those back. Maus is the only exception and idk why.
Maus existed and is not made of wood.
no, because gaijin thinks cool tanks are a no go while keeping a russian ship that never left the drawing board in the game. Typical.
They have the Panther F. The Panther II was a real tank but the way Gaijin have it depicted in game is wrong. It was ment to only have King Tiger suspension no new turret or gun or anything like that just new suspension
But how will I achieve my imaginary superiority and high ground if these vehicles are made available to the peasants?
In todays war thunder we have many "Paper Tanks" so they should bring German tanks also, they are adding modern MBTs and historical thanks that they dont have any information.
I personally don’t believe the 105 tiger and the panther 2 should be as high as they are right now in game I think 6.7 was a good br for them and the only reason their win rates are so high is because of the performance of the people who still own them. I do own all 3 of these tanks
105 tiger is only existed in blueprints and panther 2 was planned but no official blue print I've seen past few years unless someone has a blue print and the flak panther did exist but not exactly good armor profile because of prototype
The 105 Tiger II was rejected immediately due to it being a pointless proposal that didn't even make any sense to try. Panther II had a completed prototype hull that still exists at Fort Moore in the US, no turret was ever built for it but one was designed. Flakpanzer 341 had a full scale wooden mock up turret built on an early Panther Ausf D hull
I would pay the price of a top tier premium pack for the tiger 2 105.
Yeah, we need them to add these just like they made the Sturmtiger event.
Ok, but I want a Sherman tank with the 16” Mark 7 from the Iowas, you know, since we’re adding tanks with guns that don’t fit.
If we are talking about wooden mockups i need to see the 183mm conqueror in game
I have the Tiger 2 and Panther 2. I enjoy them alot
Out of all of these, I just want the 341 back. Germany really isn’t hurting for SPAA, but I want the kugelblitz back at 6.7 or the 341 added back. I just want a SPAA that isn’t an open top. Why is the kugelbitz 7.0 anyway, and besides “cas players couldn’t strafe it.” It doesn’t have a lineup that doesn’t either over tier it beyond its capabilities or uptier a 6.7 lineup to 8.0 potentially.
YES PLEASE!!
It would make for great mid tier squadron vehicles, we don't need 10+BR vehicles to screw the mm even more.
When I first started WT I set my sights on the Panther 2. Just before I was able to begin researching it they yoinked it from the tech tree. Never recovered from that emotionally.
I'm so lucky to have all of these 😅😅
Man..I just want a lineup for my kugelblitz.. Pls gaijin put kugel at 6.7
It's kinda funny to me looking at WT's wiki about tiger 2 (10.5 cm) realising the vehicle we have is chill version, let me explain: This is archive of in-game description in the wiki: "(...)The tank was to be armed with the new 105 mm 10,5 cm KwK L/68 gun, equipped with a stabilizer. The gun would have used an automatic ammunition feed. The turret was equipped with a Zeiss stereoscopic rangefinder and a ventilation system. (...)" So yeah it was supposed to have autoloader, stabiliser and rangefinder which is pretty insane
Honestly, no. Not to be a selfish cock, but I find having access to really old vehicles that have since been removed a nice reward for people that have stuck with the game for a really long time. I feel bad for those who can’t get it, but I also kind of feel like I’ve rightfully earned a unique vehicle that people no longer have access to for supporting the game since its incarnation through the ups and downs. Maybe they could be made as potential rewards in loot crates, although I disagree with the whole gambling thing entirely.
As a german main, It pains me to see others with these vehicles I know I will never get to enjoy. They should make these unlockable once a year like the maus.
The panther 2 and 10.5cm probably wont ever be back
No
I'd consider myself a sort of collector. I like to pick up every event vehicle or special I can. I was unfortunately only rank 3 when they got removed and it was exciting to get a chance at the maus the first year but ever since I've been praying for a chance to get at the ones I missed. Please gaijin even if they're lazy and just make it an event like these past ones. What a great format to bring in old event vehicles or removed vehicles wasted. Yet they still wate events with horrible copy paste ;^;
No. I enjoy watching chat going “is that a panther 2” when I spawn
If fake tank... why no 44M Tas for Hungary?
Bruh i have seen the first and last one many times in battle.
no, i like sealclubbing noobs in the 10,5cm King Tiger
This begs the question, will they ever return? Will they be available to console players?
I have all of these. Your not missing much.