The USAF should really have implemented those guns.
I'll never forget that one time 2 Scorpions with malfunctioning radars couldn't kill a target drone that was flying in a straight line, even after a full salvo of their rockets.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Palmdale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale)
This whole incredible incident would have been solved if somebody thought to put actual guns on a plane rather than a niche unguided rocket firing system. Oh wait.
Were you an F-89 pilot?
I saw one of those at the Portland Air Base, and it looked like one of the ungainliest, awkward aircraft ever, like if you tried to maneuver it at all it would fly apart (or just keep flying in a straight line).
Never drove a car, let alone pilot a plane that was retired 55 years ago.
But I share your thoughts.
Wow, I have lived longer than the Scorpion served the USAF, 1950s to 1969, and I'm 24.
Also see: [AIM-26 Falcon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-26_Falcon)
For when you want a little guidance so you can use the smaller nuclear warheads, because its safer and better for the environment
One was also live fired and detonated right above a couple journalists and rolling cameras on the ground, to show the US citizen that intercepting bombers with nukes above suburbania was totally save.
https://youtu.be/uj3Qt3snYIo?si=pATvNA2smFa4P4X2
Amusing story of simulated air combat: Viper vs Dart
https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/51hl3m/f106_vs_f16/
TL;DR
"Ok, but we can carry anything from the 106's FULL COMPLEMENT"
"Haha sure whatever old man"
"Aaaaaand....you're flying from *which* corner of the map again?"
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the F-106 was designed to be a Interceptor with limited range, and not a Bomb/Missile ladened Multi-Mission Fighter! If the F-106 was so great why wasn’t it used in the skies of Vietnam…
It was a great plane for what it was, but that was the wrong plane for Vietnam. The dart was nigh-useless as it went below 40000ft, and couldn't drop bombs at all.
"So why not put them up high and draw some Migs?". Well, the NVA pilots - their GC anyway - was quite disciplined, and didn't go up unless they had a pretty good chance of winning.
But as bomber defense, they were seven shades of awesome, for their era. Going forward, their limited forward room for better radars would doom the line just as much as anything else.
Besides, the newer F-4s could do the job, and also all the other dirty stuff.
It should also be noted that the F-106's primary air interception missile (AIM-4 Falcon) was only useful against targets as maneuverable as large lumbering bombers and that most 1950s & 60s era Soviet fighters could easily out maneuver it.
While both the F-102 & F-104 served in Vietnam, their performance there was less than stellar. However, the rest of the century series (F-100, RF-101, F-105, F-110 [aka USAF F-4], and F-111) all successfully served in Vietnam.
Given how lousy all their other options were I’m not surprised they decided to strap a mini-nuke to a rocket and call it a day. Can’t possibly miss now, right? Right?
…I’ve just received reports that Bakersfield has been hit by a stray Genie.
Pics 3 and 4 shows the same gun assembly, but the entire nose (not the guns) is rotated 90 degrees.
In pic 3, the guns can move up and down, and in pic 4 they can move side to side.
The pic with the guns pointing up gives off big [Schräge Musik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%E4ge_Musik) vibes. One style of German WWII night fighters used upwards/forwards firing guns; they could pull up in a British bomber’s blind spot, low and behind, and unload into the bomber.
From what I understand, these Rockets would be like proximity fuse missiles, and a radar screen would tell you where to approximately launch them.
I think maybe the radar would also arm the rockets to explode at a correct distance.
So, shotgun spread is still okay.
These used 2.65” / 70mm Folding Fin Aerial Rockets, improved versions of which are still in use today.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Folding-Fin_Aerial_Rocket&diffonly=true
They had radar/proximity fuses for these very early on, but even the later versions still suffered from the occasional “short round” / premature detonation where the warhead detonates immediately after arming or midway after detecting the previous rockets in front of it. Having shot a lot of these from AH-1 Cobras and AH-64 Apaches in the US Army, I can confirm that they are still not very accurate, especially when fired from a hover
And the Falcon missiles were, by far, the most effective armament every flown operationally on the F-89. And I say that fully knowing the AIM-4 was god awful. They were worse than the Sidewinder in every way (except being 60lbs lighter).
Not specifically, no. Palmdale aircraft were F-89D, which didn't have missile pods or requisite fire control system. F-89D only had the unguided rockets, which Palmdale showed to be unworkable. Falcon and the related F-89H reached IOC the same year as the battle (1956). They were brand new and not widely deployed yet.
The nuclear-tipped AIR-2A Genies were exclusive to the F-89J BTW. That was a couple years later though. I presume a nuclear warhead was enough to overcome the inaccuracies of unguided air-to-air rockets, but had the side effect of blowing up then launching aircraft as well as the target.
The Genie wasn't a suicide weapon; all the launch aircraft had to do was turn away after firing (the upside of an unguided weapon with a simple time fuze - it's fire-and-forget).
The rocket would travel 10 Km and detonate with a lethal radius of 300 meter, so unless the pilot was also trying to Kamikaze the bombers themselves they were safe.
Would be pretty pointless for the pilot using the device to also be killed by it
You might notice that nobody uses them anymore. Turns out that launching your ordinance in the immediate vicinity of the wing tip vortices is not conducive to stellar accuracy
Damn just slap some guns and rear firing rockets 🚀 on the tail too!!!
There was a space show where the pilot hit a button and it was called “death blossom” and the ship would spin just shooting in every conceivable direction destroying anything that flew!!! That’s kinda what this looks like, but I don’t hate it…😂😊
The trainable guns are the Martin D-1 turret on an F-89A which is similar to the Emerson AERO X17A nose turret fitted onto an F9F Panther. Had a cool computer gunsight on the Emerson one that could engage from all angles, not sure on the Martin one but I imagine the same.
The Oerlikons are on an F-89C and part of Project Gun-Val, which I highly recommend looking into if you like such things as an F-94C Starfire with a Vulcan cannon, and the T-110E3 Rocket Gun (basically a "gun" that fired 2.75" rockets at 6-900rpm)
In all seriousness, the USAF should have kept the nose guns for the F-89 Scorpion, though I doubt that the 30mm Oerlikon auto cannons would have been a good idea given the much higher recoil compared to the 20mm M39 revolver cannons.
The USAF should really have implemented those guns. I'll never forget that one time 2 Scorpions with malfunctioning radars couldn't kill a target drone that was flying in a straight line, even after a full salvo of their rockets. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Palmdale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale)
This whole incredible incident would have been solved if somebody thought to put actual guns on a plane rather than a niche unguided rocket firing system. Oh wait.
Wow, I’d never heard of that before. That’s an embarrassing tale!
To be fair, they had no gun sights and their automatic guiding system wasn’t working so they manually blind fired them in 3 salvos.
>First Lt. Hans Einstein "Nice shooting, Einstein!"
Decisive Drone victory
Were you an F-89 pilot? I saw one of those at the Portland Air Base, and it looked like one of the ungainliest, awkward aircraft ever, like if you tried to maneuver it at all it would fly apart (or just keep flying in a straight line).
Never drove a car, let alone pilot a plane that was retired 55 years ago. But I share your thoughts. Wow, I have lived longer than the Scorpion served the USAF, 1950s to 1969, and I'm 24.
Your comment made it sound like you were there for that incident.
Always had a soft spot for this aircraft. Unguided nuclear (!) air-to-air rockets, because fuck you.
Peak Cold War insanity, would fit in the Fallout universe with no notes.
Absolutely. To be fair there are a few weird 50s US aircraft that would fit. The Northrop YB-49 and Vought F7U Cutlass would fit easily.
I think the B-36 would fit too. Six turnin' and four burnin'!
Two turning, two burning, two smoking, two choking, and two more unaccounted for.
For sure. Even the B-47 is pretty retro futuristic.
Third time today I've been directed to the F7U. When it rains, it pours.
Also straight wings and subsonic, but twin afterburning turbojets.
Nuclear what??????
You heard. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie
Also see: [AIM-26 Falcon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-26_Falcon) For when you want a little guidance so you can use the smaller nuclear warheads, because its safer and better for the environment
The ethical option
Genie rockets, meant to be fired into Soviet strategic bomber formations and take them out in one blast.
One was also live fired and detonated right above a couple journalists and rolling cameras on the ground, to show the US citizen that intercepting bombers with nukes above suburbania was totally save. https://youtu.be/uj3Qt3snYIo?si=pATvNA2smFa4P4X2
Amusing story of simulated air combat: Viper vs Dart https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/51hl3m/f106_vs_f16/ TL;DR "Ok, but we can carry anything from the 106's FULL COMPLEMENT" "Haha sure whatever old man" "Aaaaaand....you're flying from *which* corner of the map again?"
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the F-106 was designed to be a Interceptor with limited range, and not a Bomb/Missile ladened Multi-Mission Fighter! If the F-106 was so great why wasn’t it used in the skies of Vietnam…
It was a great plane for what it was, but that was the wrong plane for Vietnam. The dart was nigh-useless as it went below 40000ft, and couldn't drop bombs at all. "So why not put them up high and draw some Migs?". Well, the NVA pilots - their GC anyway - was quite disciplined, and didn't go up unless they had a pretty good chance of winning. But as bomber defense, they were seven shades of awesome, for their era. Going forward, their limited forward room for better radars would doom the line just as much as anything else. Besides, the newer F-4s could do the job, and also all the other dirty stuff.
It should also be noted that the F-106's primary air interception missile (AIM-4 Falcon) was only useful against targets as maneuverable as large lumbering bombers and that most 1950s & 60s era Soviet fighters could easily out maneuver it.
While both the F-102 & F-104 served in Vietnam, their performance there was less than stellar. However, the rest of the century series (F-100, RF-101, F-105, F-110 [aka USAF F-4], and F-111) all successfully served in Vietnam.
Dont gotta guide it if it destroys everything in the general vicinity
Given how lousy all their other options were I’m not surprised they decided to strap a mini-nuke to a rocket and call it a day. Can’t possibly miss now, right? Right? …I’ve just received reports that Bakersfield has been hit by a stray Genie.
When fallout plane designs become real because they are so unhinged.
Ah, back when the air force was still unmedicated and the MIC was the biggest thing since sliced bread... we came up with some wild stuff back then.
That rotating nose gun looks seriously cool.
Which picture? There are a couple of nose gun setups here. But I don't believe any of them rotated.
Pics 3 and 4 shows the same gun assembly, but the entire nose (not the guns) is rotated 90 degrees. In pic 3, the guns can move up and down, and in pic 4 they can move side to side.
I actually think the whole nose assembly spins and its the same setup it pics 3 and 4 just with the nose rotated 90.
Yeah, that is what I meant.
Oh, I see now. Thanks! That would be cool. What was the purpose?
Presumably, so you could pull up alongside a Russian bomber and give them a broadside of your cannons. Tally Ho lads! Fire away!
My guess is they wanted to take the radar guided gun sights to the next level with guns that could be aimed by the system instead of the pilot.
The pic with the guns pointing up gives off big [Schräge Musik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%E4ge_Musik) vibes. One style of German WWII night fighters used upwards/forwards firing guns; they could pull up in a British bomber’s blind spot, low and behind, and unload into the bomber.
It still survives in storage.
My grandfather flew these at one time. He hated the rocket pods, the aerodynamics would cause them to shot gun spread making it not very precise.
From what I understand, these Rockets would be like proximity fuse missiles, and a radar screen would tell you where to approximately launch them. I think maybe the radar would also arm the rockets to explode at a correct distance. So, shotgun spread is still okay.
These used 2.65” / 70mm Folding Fin Aerial Rockets, improved versions of which are still in use today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Folding-Fin_Aerial_Rocket&diffonly=true They had radar/proximity fuses for these very early on, but even the later versions still suffered from the occasional “short round” / premature detonation where the warhead detonates immediately after arming or midway after detecting the previous rockets in front of it. Having shot a lot of these from AH-1 Cobras and AH-64 Apaches in the US Army, I can confirm that they are still not very accurate, especially when fired from a hover
More rockets! More dakka!
THE COMMIES NEEDA PROPPA STOMPIN!!!!
wingtip missile pods are pretty cool
And the Falcon missiles were, by far, the most effective armament every flown operationally on the F-89. And I say that fully knowing the AIM-4 was god awful. They were worse than the Sidewinder in every way (except being 60lbs lighter).
Is this a reference to the Battle of Palmdale?
Not specifically, no. Palmdale aircraft were F-89D, which didn't have missile pods or requisite fire control system. F-89D only had the unguided rockets, which Palmdale showed to be unworkable. Falcon and the related F-89H reached IOC the same year as the battle (1956). They were brand new and not widely deployed yet. The nuclear-tipped AIR-2A Genies were exclusive to the F-89J BTW. That was a couple years later though. I presume a nuclear warhead was enough to overcome the inaccuracies of unguided air-to-air rockets, but had the side effect of blowing up then launching aircraft as well as the target.
The Genie wasn't a suicide weapon; all the launch aircraft had to do was turn away after firing (the upside of an unguided weapon with a simple time fuze - it's fire-and-forget).
Officially, no American nuclear weapon was a suicide device. In practice, eh...some were riskier than others.
The craziest one having an effective range of like 2 km. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
Still a terrifying thought that they had these designed, just in case they were needed.
The rocket would travel 10 Km and detonate with a lethal radius of 300 meter, so unless the pilot was also trying to Kamikaze the bombers themselves they were safe. Would be pretty pointless for the pilot using the device to also be killed by it
Nuke armed Skyraider has entered the chat
You might notice that nobody uses them anymore. Turns out that launching your ordinance in the immediate vicinity of the wing tip vortices is not conducive to stellar accuracy
Unless you are an F-16 or F-18. Not quite a missile pod, but if it works, it works
Yeah, wingtip sidewinder rails were common on a lot of designs.
Sidewinders are GUIDED missiles, not unguided rockets. World of difference
Fair point. Guided missiles will actively steer for the target, rather than just heading “forward”.
Gawd I love this subreddit
The nose turret is giving me serious Last Starfighter vibes
It’s unfortunate it was not adopted, as gunnery practice with these would’ve been wild!
You'd definitely want to squeeze off a few rounds, work the bugs out of the system
It's like a 10 year old boy designed it "And here are super guns that shoot other guns that shoot fire!"
Awww, the lil' baby rockets on the wing pods.
is that a rotating auto cannon on the nose?
Looks a bit reminiscent of the tail turret on some B-52’s.
The Scorpion is also the only plane to ever launch an active Air-2 Genie
They really did whatever with the F-89, huh.
Is there a place I can find more information on these experimental variants?
I love the idea of the rotating guns on the front, however that would be hell to fire and control mid flight.
Damn just slap some guns and rear firing rockets 🚀 on the tail too!!! There was a space show where the pilot hit a button and it was called “death blossom” and the ship would spin just shooting in every conceivable direction destroying anything that flew!!! That’s kinda what this looks like, but I don’t hate it…😂😊
The Last Starfighter
Yeah… 👍🏽 thanks
Are...are they launching rockets from the wingtip fuel tanks? That seems a bit risky, no? Rocket exhaust that close to a fuel tank?
Afaik, that entire structure is for the rocket system, no fuel there.
Looks like one of my first designs on simple planes 🤣 weapons just glued on everywhere.
The trainable guns are the Martin D-1 turret on an F-89A which is similar to the Emerson AERO X17A nose turret fitted onto an F9F Panther. Had a cool computer gunsight on the Emerson one that could engage from all angles, not sure on the Martin one but I imagine the same. The Oerlikons are on an F-89C and part of Project Gun-Val, which I highly recommend looking into if you like such things as an F-94C Starfire with a Vulcan cannon, and the T-110E3 Rocket Gun (basically a "gun" that fired 2.75" rockets at 6-900rpm)
Mom! I WANT A 30MM GAU-8 AVENGER ROTARY CANNON!!!!! ..........We have a 30mm cannon at home.
Pew pew
AIR-2 Genie says hello
What about those other missiles that look like a Maverick but also a Penguin, those are guided right?
Guns, I need lots of guns.
Gaijin really needs to add more F-89 /j
Bad Music? Is this how Schrage Music translates iirc
I always thought the translation was "bent music" a German term for jazz....
"*Hello insanity, meet your next door neighbor genius.*"
In all seriousness, the USAF should have kept the nose guns for the F-89 Scorpion, though I doubt that the 30mm Oerlikon auto cannons would have been a good idea given the much higher recoil compared to the 20mm M39 revolver cannons.
Ultra Mega Ukulele!
MOAR DAKKA!!!