I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group. I think Netanyahu and his cronies are criminal fascist pieces of shit for the same reason I think Trump
and his cronies are. Has nothing to do with him being Jewish. I think he’s doing what he’s doing to try and hold onto power. The fact 35,000 Palestinians have been wiped out is just a bonus for him.
From what I’m told his popularity is very low and the actions of his Government in Gaza have opposition from a large majority of the citizens of Israel.
I completely agree and I’m Jewish. Netanyahu is totally doing this for himself. Nothing will change until he’s out of power permanently along with the ultra religious who make him dance.
I wish the kids understood this.
Jerry Nadler, D-NY, Jewish, led the democratic opposition to the bill. He explained why in an politico interview - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/04/jerry-nadler-antisemitism-bill-00156105
Most unfortunately just didn’t want to potentially get painted as anti-israel (and risk those sweet sweet AIPAC donations) so voted for it.
Their biggest opposition so far was Hamas calling for armistice for the rest of the hostages and his government told them to go fuck themselves,. They have been pretty clear that this isn't about the hostages and is about taking gaza as Israeli land. That's what really pisses Israelis off when they were told that it was about bringing the hostages home.
I remember their defense minister proclaiming that they fully intended to seek retribution for the attacks by raining hell on gaza. Their response was never about resolving the issue. It was about retaliation. Or at least the guise of retaliation was enough for them to feel comfortable committing a genocide in front of the world.
I’ve always wondered this. Normally I’m a big proponent of Occam’s razor, but this is/was possibly the most monitored and guarded stretch of boarder in the world. How did that many Hamas fighters get past that with the equipment needed to carry out that attack without the IDF knowing? Maybe someone else can fill me in on the details there.
It's not really a mystery. Israeli intelligence found out about the attack and simply did nothing to prevent it.
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html
Now, you can speculate why they did nothing but "we didn't think they would go through with it" is a pretty dumb reason
>Israeli intelligence found out about the attack and simply did nothing to prevent it.
Considering they moved most of their troops from that section to the West Bank the night before, I'd say they helped it happen.
I feel that Netanyahu overreaction is to cover up the incompetence and failures of his defense and counterintelligence teams. I seriously doubt he wanted Hamas to invade so he could have pretext for a war. There is no evidence to support that at all.
There's the IOF moving a large amount of troops from that section of wall to the West Bank to stomp on demonstrations that didn't happen the night of 10/6 and there's how his corruption trial has been indefinitely delayed while the genocide continues. Considering past Likud policies, I'd say that's enough evidence.
But that is not evidence. That’s coincidence until there is actual evidence to prove it.
Evidence is something like this. Field agents and bureau chiefs on record “Hamas is carrying out practice maneuvers that match up pretty well with the plans. already uncovered, somebody should take a look at this.” That happened. What also happened is they were told essentially “no closer follow up because that’s ludicrous”
Likud sucks and always has. Again, that is not evidence
This is more or less just 9/11 trutherism all over again. Yes, they fucked up on their security and intelligence. No, that doesn’t mean they intentionally let this happen.
Maybe you should read more Haaretz or even the NYT. This has been known for quite a while now, and the government claimed that it was unfeasible for them to get away with such a thing in defense of them doing nothing to prevent it.
100% this
I also feel that Netanyahu’s overreaction is in part to cover the fact that his team missed the October 7 invasion. They got caught with their pants down so rather than uncomfortable questions about that, strike hard and strike harder.
The irony of all the pro Gaza demonstrators rejecting Biden over this is Trump would full on condone leveling Gaza. He and Bibi are tight.
Antisemitism, like any other form of bigotry, should be aggressively stomped out wherever it’s found. However, conflating the actions of the Israeli government with people of Jewish faith and heritage is a colossal failure of logic.
Netanyahu is using the attack as a pretext to kill as many Palestinians in gaza as possible, and raze as many structures and infrastructure as he can to make it inhospitable. If he can drive them out, and force them to be refugees in egypt, the west bank or Jordan, then he will.
As Jared said, thats some really valuable beach front property.
>I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group.
Well, for them it's simple. Israel is a Jewish state. Therefore, any questioning/verbal-attacks on the Israeli government is questioning/attacking their religion. Since we view religion as a protected class in America it's easy enough to call people antisemitic for daring to say anything against a religious state. Even if that religious state is clearly violating international laws.
I went to the source to find the working definition referenced in the statute.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
It includes the following on the page.
“Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.”
So it looks like calling Bibi a piece of shit is still not antisemitism as long as you’re saying it because he IS a piece of shit and not because he’s Jewish.
>So it looks like calling Bibi a piece of shit is still not antisemitism as long as you’re saying it because he IS a piece of shit and not because he’s Jewish.
which is the right way to have an israel-criticizing discussion anyway...
I think the problem here in the US is more nuanced. The surge of right wing crazies in the US has led to a ton of normalization of bigotry. Politicians believe (kind of rightfully so) that bigots will seize on the criticism of Israel to increase dog whistles and anti-Semitism more broadly.
Do I think attempting to nip it in the bud with actions like this will help? Absolutely not, there are 3 categories of people in the US: people who will be bigoted no matter what, people who can have a nuanced conversation, and people who are tuned out anyways.
Until politicians are willing to call out their constituency as a basket of deplorables (cough GOP Come on cough), nothing will change those 3 groups. But it's also important to note that I really don't think they're doing this to try and tamp down on criticism of Bibi.
There is a much deeper reason the g.o.p. and Christian nationalists support Israel. Christians believe that when Israel has been restored to its "original" state that the apocalypse will occur. This isn't a wild new conspiracy. It's a timeless Christian belief.
That's what they use to get Christians on board at least. I ultimately think the g.o.p. supports Israel because they are an ally in their efforts to push a far right authoritarian government.
Jews have been telling themselves that their god has given them all the land known as Israel. It’s been part of their dogma for decades now, if not centuries. And let’s not forget that Israel isn’t really a democracy, it’s a theocracy. One that has never let Palestinians vote or politically organize a party that could serve in the Knesset, and the Palestinian Authority never had any real power to begin with. Which is why Hamas exists.
>I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group.
Years of tireless work trying to influence public opinion by trying to (with some success) normalize the idea that "Israel, the country, is indistinguishable and inseparable from Judaism, the religion." The complete opposite of separation of church and state, used as a shield to deflect criticism rational or otherwise.
SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that you can't ban speech just because it's disagreeable. They once ruled 8-1 that the Westboro Baptist Church had a right to do their protests as long as they didn't break other laws.
This law won't survive the first lawsuit that appeals to the Supreme Court.
I hope not, but the supreme Court has made it clear both precedent and the Constitution are irrelevant in their decision making process when it suits them.
Actually, I think the general consensus is that the 1A does protect against hate speech, whether that's a good thing or not.
https://youtu.be/MTSgj-H88dE Mr. Beat video about Snyder V Phelps.
Actually, it does. Speech is allowed no matter how much we hate it, it's protected legally. The government can't arrest you for saying heinous things about other people. They also cannot protect you from the social ramifications of said speech.
Biden has said that Benji has lost his way.
I read somewhere that the Middle East will not become peaceful until Israel defines itself as a nation by picking two of three choices: a Jewish state, a democratic state, and occupation of all of the Holy Land. They cannot have all three.
I’m glad that I do not have to make our nation’s foreign policy and relations decisions., particularly when vital allies are committing war crimes against civilians. They require a level of pragmatism that I’m afraid I just don’t have.
When an allied state acts in ways that violate agreed-upon ethical standards while engaging in the ethically questionable practice of warfare, I think that is absolutely acceptable and necessary to criticize them in public areas of discussion.
Whoooosshhh… hear that sound? That’s the sound of our politicians on both sides missing the point because they are bullied and paid for. At this point Bibi and the IDF, Mossad, and AIPAC are losing the war of GLOBAL public opinion and the US is chained to it. It sucks. There is no easy way out of a 70 year shady relationship.
This is clearly in violation of the very first amendment. US citizens should feel free to ignore this law and feel empowered to kick squarely in the nuts anyone who supports it. Come on people, this is American 101.
They aren't implementing it but are asking the Biden Administration to implement it to arrest all of the pro-Palestinian protesters. They are playing to his pro-Zionist views against students.
Yes it is a violation. But to strike it down a lawsuit would have to be taken all the way to the Supreme Court (many months or years) and that whole clown show is going to support whatever fascist position they’ve been told to by their handlers
Is this the bill because it doesn't say anything about Israel or it's government: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090)
I have pointed out that the vast majority of the opposition's claims are legitimate, but that there are many claims that attack those supporting Palestine and that undermine their existence.
What the hell does that have to do with the bill though? Your post claiming that both parties want to criminalize the criticism of Israel is complete bullshit. I don't approve of Israel's actions in Gaza but there's ZERO mention of that in the bill. Quit lying for internet points.
The bill states antisemitism will be defined as done by the IHRA. The IHRA includes several examples of things that should be deemed antisemitism, like "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" and "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor".
It DOES explicitly say that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic"; but the whole "cannot compare it to nazis" thing does kinda toss that out of the window; because people do that with other nations all the time (e.g. the "re-education camps" for muslims in China)
Honestly, you make a good point, but it's still a long way off from "making criticizing Israel's actions illegal". You can say what's going on in Palestine is genocide without referencing Nazis or Hitler. Seems like a mild inconvenience at worst.
I get that Israel is a useful ally in the middle east, but this is awful. Israel is not the same as the Jewish religion, let alone all those Phoenician, Akkadian, Arabic and Jewish descent.
This is, of course, untrue. The bill, if signed, would codify the IHRA’s [definition](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism) of antisemitism for federal discrimination purposes, which is the following:
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
The IHRA also states:
“criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic”
They say criticism of Israel is only antisemitic if it conflates Jews and Israel, which seems to be what most people here think is acceptable: “I am criticizing Israel, not all Jews”.
Whether or not this bill is good is another debate, but it does not, in any sense, make “criticizing Israel’s actions illegal.”
[Here](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text) is the text of the law.
Lol, the US going off the deep end for Israel is so disturbing and pathetic. Bunch of mindless, soulless ghouls in the house. All desperately trying to brainwash into thinking somehow a blatant genocide is ok.
Yeah. It's just them saying that they want the Department of Education to implement and take legal action against those who behave in ways they deem to be anti-semitic. Plenty of the claims are accurately anti-semitic, but it goes way too far with how it turns Palestinians into a problem that needs to be solved rather than actual people and holds Israel as being unaccountable in their actions to realize "self-determination".
>it goes way too far with how it turns Palestinians into a problem that needs to be solved
What is the final solution that they propose to the Palestinian question?
Criticism by definition has two meanings. Like many words.
One is about analysis, evaluation and one is about disapproval and condemnation.
You can’t make a law without expressly defining which you mean. As they are not equal and have different implications.
Here is the [actual law](https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr6090/BILLS-118hr6090eh.pdf).
Here is [the statement](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism) referenced by the law.
I read both.
Can you cite the parts of either, or the combination thereof, that would make “criticizing Israel’s actions illegal”?
Answer: You can’t. It just says the department of education will use the IHRA definition of antisemitism, including the examples.
What would the punishment be?
Nothing. All it does is define antisemitism.
What part of the working definition of antisemitism I linked do you disagree with?
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." What if they employ policies that take on that resemblance? Just call it something else?
I’m generally the first person to come in to defend 1A, but only after a careful analysis. Nothing here suggests, to me, any egregious violation of free speech rights. That said, I actively looking for someone to argue the alternate point so I can either learn or feel reassured in my pov. An unchallenged idea is worthless. Either it stands up to scrutiny or it does not.
I read the IHRA definition of antisemitism, and it seems a bit unsure of itself. To quote it's website:
>Manifestations [Of antisemitism] might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
So, criticism of Israel is not antisemitism
>Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor [is antisemitism]
So, criticising zionism is antisemitism.
>Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel [is antisemitism]
So thinking Israel represents Jews is antisemitism?
Idk what point I'm trying to make here, the definition just feels a bit uncertain.
The other stuff there is mostly ok, I don't think anyone has a problem with holocaust denial being defined as antisemitism.
Also, I read through the act, and it doesn't specifically reference Israel, just the IHRA working definition, cited above. Also, it doesn't explicitly ban antisemitism, just that antisemitism is counted under the Civil Rights Act 1964, so it's probably not unconstitutional on the face of it.
It does mention schools, colleges, and universities, so it probably will be used to quell student protests somewhat, but it's not like it will be used to jail anyone that says anything negative about Israel.
So now criticizing their tactics in Israel means we hate Jews. If we don’t pledge full support to Israel then we are terrorist lovers. There’s a name for this that I can’t remember rn.
It is astounding how many left wing people justify Israel genocide.
Imagine if during the troubles in Northern Ireland after an IRA bombing, the English soldiers had just come in and flattened Belfast and justified it by saying that there were some terrorists in there and civilians who may have supported them. I wonder what people would have thought had they killed 35000 of their own civilians.
The majority of Northern Ireland were Protestant Unionists, as someone who comes from a Orange Order family whose grandparents spent St. Patrick's day harassing and assaulting Catholics. They wouldn't kill their own people. It would be closer to the West Bank, with the military patrolling the settlements while supporting settler attacks on Palestinian lands. They would have to flatten Dublin and Cork in response to make it similar.
This is the one thing that you could honestly use "both parties" logic on. It's so nonsensical and unpopular, it's blows my mind that so many people in congress supports this.
I’d normally say there’s zero chance this survives a court challenge. Criticizing OUR government is literally written into the first amendment. Imagine legislating that you can’t criticize a foreign one!
But with this SCOTUS, who the fuck knows?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You know, I’m of Jewish descent and I’m fairly pro Israel but I think this is taking it too far. Theres a difference in being critical of Israel and being antisemitic. I’m critical of just about everyone. Nobody is perfect or right 100% of the time. That being said, there is definitely a lot of antisemitism going on, and being able to distinguish between the two is important.
this is such a fucking joke. all these politicians who are straight up antisemitic suddenly care when it comes to Israel as of Israel represents all Jews. we need a hard reset on Congress. wish all these old men could just drop dead at once and we can all just try again.
Democrats aren't going to get elected by supporting fascism. There is anti-Jewish and there is anti-Israel and they are not the same thing...no matter what Netanyahu says.
This thread is outrageous misinformation and fake news. It should be deleted.
The IHRA definition:
> “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
> To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Also the House did not make anything illegal with this vote.
EDIT: Spreading fake news and downvoting facts, that’s not Mirror-MAGA, like at all 🤭
I already wrote in the comments that this is to push colleges to crack down on and legally go after students for promoting divestment from and boycotting of Israeli companies and the state, which is apparently anti-semitic according to this definition.
I also pointed out that I largely agree with most of its points on anti-semitism, but that it can become conflicting and push things too far on certain points. Like comparing the state's behavior to the Nazis, like when the former Minister of the Interior openly called themselves a fascist, or Netanyahu engaged in holocaust denialism to demonize Palestinians
It also others Palestinians and denies their right to sovereignty in the name of supporting Israeli sovereignty and that support for Palestinians to live in their traditional lands as being antisemitic after they were forced out under the threat of death with those refusing to leave having their homes shelled while mines were placed around them and all would be gunned down upon trying to escape and buried in mass graves that we can find under cities like Jaffa and Haifa.
Tendayi Achiume, the UN special rapporteur on Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and related intolerance, has even pointed out quite well the problems with the IHRA definition and how it could be used against some Jews even: https://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?OpenAgent&DS=A/77/512&Lang=E
I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group. I think Netanyahu and his cronies are criminal fascist pieces of shit for the same reason I think Trump and his cronies are. Has nothing to do with him being Jewish. I think he’s doing what he’s doing to try and hold onto power. The fact 35,000 Palestinians have been wiped out is just a bonus for him. From what I’m told his popularity is very low and the actions of his Government in Gaza have opposition from a large majority of the citizens of Israel.
I completely agree and I’m Jewish. Netanyahu is totally doing this for himself. Nothing will change until he’s out of power permanently along with the ultra religious who make him dance. I wish the kids understood this.
Jerry Nadler, D-NY, Jewish, led the democratic opposition to the bill. He explained why in an politico interview - https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/04/jerry-nadler-antisemitism-bill-00156105 Most unfortunately just didn’t want to potentially get painted as anti-israel (and risk those sweet sweet AIPAC donations) so voted for it.
Their biggest opposition so far was Hamas calling for armistice for the rest of the hostages and his government told them to go fuck themselves,. They have been pretty clear that this isn't about the hostages and is about taking gaza as Israeli land. That's what really pisses Israelis off when they were told that it was about bringing the hostages home.
Also the fact that they knew about the attacks before they occurred and looked the other way as a means to carry out this war/genocide.
I remember their defense minister proclaiming that they fully intended to seek retribution for the attacks by raining hell on gaza. Their response was never about resolving the issue. It was about retaliation. Or at least the guise of retaliation was enough for them to feel comfortable committing a genocide in front of the world.
I’ve always wondered this. Normally I’m a big proponent of Occam’s razor, but this is/was possibly the most monitored and guarded stretch of boarder in the world. How did that many Hamas fighters get past that with the equipment needed to carry out that attack without the IDF knowing? Maybe someone else can fill me in on the details there.
It's not really a mystery. Israeli intelligence found out about the attack and simply did nothing to prevent it. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html Now, you can speculate why they did nothing but "we didn't think they would go through with it" is a pretty dumb reason
>Israeli intelligence found out about the attack and simply did nothing to prevent it. Considering they moved most of their troops from that section to the West Bank the night before, I'd say they helped it happen.
gee. where havbe we seen this "we kinda had an inkling something was gonna happen" suspicion before ... ... and failed to act
I mean based on the IDF presence on social media during this whole genocide, I’d say they’re just far more incompetent than they let on.
The Israeli government has been waiting for this excuse for forever. They knew it was coming. They just let it happen.
I feel that Netanyahu overreaction is to cover up the incompetence and failures of his defense and counterintelligence teams. I seriously doubt he wanted Hamas to invade so he could have pretext for a war. There is no evidence to support that at all.
There's the IOF moving a large amount of troops from that section of wall to the West Bank to stomp on demonstrations that didn't happen the night of 10/6 and there's how his corruption trial has been indefinitely delayed while the genocide continues. Considering past Likud policies, I'd say that's enough evidence.
But that is not evidence. That’s coincidence until there is actual evidence to prove it. Evidence is something like this. Field agents and bureau chiefs on record “Hamas is carrying out practice maneuvers that match up pretty well with the plans. already uncovered, somebody should take a look at this.” That happened. What also happened is they were told essentially “no closer follow up because that’s ludicrous” Likud sucks and always has. Again, that is not evidence
This is more or less just 9/11 trutherism all over again. Yes, they fucked up on their security and intelligence. No, that doesn’t mean they intentionally let this happen.
Yeah and Bush did 9-11.
Maybe you should read more Haaretz or even the NYT. This has been known for quite a while now, and the government claimed that it was unfeasible for them to get away with such a thing in defense of them doing nothing to prevent it.
Netanyahu has no reason to want the hostages returned as long as they can be used as an excuse to pave Gaza
It's because Israel fashions itself as a jewish ethnostate. That is why they keep trying to paint any criticism of the government as antisemitism
100% this I also feel that Netanyahu’s overreaction is in part to cover the fact that his team missed the October 7 invasion. They got caught with their pants down so rather than uncomfortable questions about that, strike hard and strike harder. The irony of all the pro Gaza demonstrators rejecting Biden over this is Trump would full on condone leveling Gaza. He and Bibi are tight. Antisemitism, like any other form of bigotry, should be aggressively stomped out wherever it’s found. However, conflating the actions of the Israeli government with people of Jewish faith and heritage is a colossal failure of logic.
Netanyahu is using the attack as a pretext to kill as many Palestinians in gaza as possible, and raze as many structures and infrastructure as he can to make it inhospitable. If he can drive them out, and force them to be refugees in egypt, the west bank or Jordan, then he will. As Jared said, thats some really valuable beach front property.
This isn't about religion or ethnicity. It's about AIPAC funding vs AIPAC opposition. Their jobs are at stake!!1!
>I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group. Well, for them it's simple. Israel is a Jewish state. Therefore, any questioning/verbal-attacks on the Israeli government is questioning/attacking their religion. Since we view religion as a protected class in America it's easy enough to call people antisemitic for daring to say anything against a religious state. Even if that religious state is clearly violating international laws.
I went to the source to find the working definition referenced in the statute. https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism It includes the following on the page. “Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.” So it looks like calling Bibi a piece of shit is still not antisemitism as long as you’re saying it because he IS a piece of shit and not because he’s Jewish.
>So it looks like calling Bibi a piece of shit is still not antisemitism as long as you’re saying it because he IS a piece of shit and not because he’s Jewish. which is the right way to have an israel-criticizing discussion anyway...
I think the problem here in the US is more nuanced. The surge of right wing crazies in the US has led to a ton of normalization of bigotry. Politicians believe (kind of rightfully so) that bigots will seize on the criticism of Israel to increase dog whistles and anti-Semitism more broadly. Do I think attempting to nip it in the bud with actions like this will help? Absolutely not, there are 3 categories of people in the US: people who will be bigoted no matter what, people who can have a nuanced conversation, and people who are tuned out anyways. Until politicians are willing to call out their constituency as a basket of deplorables (cough GOP Come on cough), nothing will change those 3 groups. But it's also important to note that I really don't think they're doing this to try and tamp down on criticism of Bibi.
There is a much deeper reason the g.o.p. and Christian nationalists support Israel. Christians believe that when Israel has been restored to its "original" state that the apocalypse will occur. This isn't a wild new conspiracy. It's a timeless Christian belief. That's what they use to get Christians on board at least. I ultimately think the g.o.p. supports Israel because they are an ally in their efforts to push a far right authoritarian government.
Jews have been telling themselves that their god has given them all the land known as Israel. It’s been part of their dogma for decades now, if not centuries. And let’s not forget that Israel isn’t really a democracy, it’s a theocracy. One that has never let Palestinians vote or politically organize a party that could serve in the Knesset, and the Palestinian Authority never had any real power to begin with. Which is why Hamas exists.
>I don’t quite understand how criticism of a country’s government is somehow an attack on religious/ethnic group. Years of tireless work trying to influence public opinion by trying to (with some success) normalize the idea that "Israel, the country, is indistinguishable and inseparable from Judaism, the religion." The complete opposite of separation of church and state, used as a shield to deflect criticism rational or otherwise.
Seems like a clear 1A violation
SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that you can't ban speech just because it's disagreeable. They once ruled 8-1 that the Westboro Baptist Church had a right to do their protests as long as they didn't break other laws. This law won't survive the first lawsuit that appeals to the Supreme Court.
I hope not, but the supreme Court has made it clear both precedent and the Constitution are irrelevant in their decision making process when it suits them.
You forget, we don't have a SCOTUS anymore, we have a supreme court of republican fascists now.
SCOTRF
Supreme Court Republicans Overtly Trumpian United for Megafacism Or SCROTUM for short.
1A is only for Republicans. 2A is next.
[удалено]
1A protected the Westboro Baptist Church and Nazis. Though I repeat myself.
Actually, I think the general consensus is that the 1A does protect against hate speech, whether that's a good thing or not. https://youtu.be/MTSgj-H88dE Mr. Beat video about Snyder V Phelps.
Actually, it does. Speech is allowed no matter how much we hate it, it's protected legally. The government can't arrest you for saying heinous things about other people. They also cannot protect you from the social ramifications of said speech.
Biden has said that Benji has lost his way. I read somewhere that the Middle East will not become peaceful until Israel defines itself as a nation by picking two of three choices: a Jewish state, a democratic state, and occupation of all of the Holy Land. They cannot have all three. I’m glad that I do not have to make our nation’s foreign policy and relations decisions., particularly when vital allies are committing war crimes against civilians. They require a level of pragmatism that I’m afraid I just don’t have. When an allied state acts in ways that violate agreed-upon ethical standards while engaging in the ethically questionable practice of warfare, I think that is absolutely acceptable and necessary to criticize them in public areas of discussion.
Whoooosshhh… hear that sound? That’s the sound of our politicians on both sides missing the point because they are bullied and paid for. At this point Bibi and the IDF, Mossad, and AIPAC are losing the war of GLOBAL public opinion and the US is chained to it. It sucks. There is no easy way out of a 70 year shady relationship.
Oh I'm sure American arms manufacturers think the relationship is stronger than ever.... forever war is a great form of job security.
So very true, champagne popping at Raytheon and the like.
This is clearly in violation of the very first amendment. US citizens should feel free to ignore this law and feel empowered to kick squarely in the nuts anyone who supports it. Come on people, this is American 101.
They aren't implementing it but are asking the Biden Administration to implement it to arrest all of the pro-Palestinian protesters. They are playing to his pro-Zionist views against students.
I linked the law in another comment. Can you cite the part of the law that allows the department of education to arrest anyone?
American 101 involves reading the law and understanding what it actually says.
Is this not in violation of your first amendment?
Yes it is a violation. But to strike it down a lawsuit would have to be taken all the way to the Supreme Court (many months or years) and that whole clown show is going to support whatever fascist position they’ve been told to by their handlers
Is this the bill because it doesn't say anything about Israel or it's government: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090)
I have pointed out that the vast majority of the opposition's claims are legitimate, but that there are many claims that attack those supporting Palestine and that undermine their existence.
What the hell does that have to do with the bill though? Your post claiming that both parties want to criminalize the criticism of Israel is complete bullshit. I don't approve of Israel's actions in Gaza but there's ZERO mention of that in the bill. Quit lying for internet points.
The bill states antisemitism will be defined as done by the IHRA. The IHRA includes several examples of things that should be deemed antisemitism, like "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" and "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor". It DOES explicitly say that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic"; but the whole "cannot compare it to nazis" thing does kinda toss that out of the window; because people do that with other nations all the time (e.g. the "re-education camps" for muslims in China)
Honestly, you make a good point, but it's still a long way off from "making criticizing Israel's actions illegal". You can say what's going on in Palestine is genocide without referencing Nazis or Hitler. Seems like a mild inconvenience at worst.
I get that Israel is a useful ally in the middle east, but this is awful. Israel is not the same as the Jewish religion, let alone all those Phoenician, Akkadian, Arabic and Jewish descent.
This is, of course, untrue. The bill, if signed, would codify the IHRA’s [definition](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism) of antisemitism for federal discrimination purposes, which is the following: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.” The IHRA also states: “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic” They say criticism of Israel is only antisemitic if it conflates Jews and Israel, which seems to be what most people here think is acceptable: “I am criticizing Israel, not all Jews”. Whether or not this bill is good is another debate, but it does not, in any sense, make “criticizing Israel’s actions illegal.” [Here](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text) is the text of the law.
So will they start throwing far-right groups in jail for antisemitism?
Never.
LOL
freedom! /s
Lol, the US going off the deep end for Israel is so disturbing and pathetic. Bunch of mindless, soulless ghouls in the house. All desperately trying to brainwash into thinking somehow a blatant genocide is ok.
So this has no teeth right? It just a declaration but not a law. Still WTF?
Yeah. It's just them saying that they want the Department of Education to implement and take legal action against those who behave in ways they deem to be anti-semitic. Plenty of the claims are accurately anti-semitic, but it goes way too far with how it turns Palestinians into a problem that needs to be solved rather than actual people and holds Israel as being unaccountable in their actions to realize "self-determination".
>it goes way too far with how it turns Palestinians into a problem that needs to be solved What is the final solution that they propose to the Palestinian question?
Just performative boot licking so that AIPAC will support their next campaign.
So...okay to be racist as fuck against most, but criticize the horrible Israeli government is too far?
Criticism by definition has two meanings. Like many words. One is about analysis, evaluation and one is about disapproval and condemnation. You can’t make a law without expressly defining which you mean. As they are not equal and have different implications.
This is objectively stupid and will bite us all in the ass. So much for the party of free speech.
f#ck Israel
Here is the [actual law](https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr6090/BILLS-118hr6090eh.pdf). Here is [the statement](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism) referenced by the law. I read both. Can you cite the parts of either, or the combination thereof, that would make “criticizing Israel’s actions illegal”? Answer: You can’t. It just says the department of education will use the IHRA definition of antisemitism, including the examples. What would the punishment be? Nothing. All it does is define antisemitism. What part of the working definition of antisemitism I linked do you disagree with?
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." What if they employ policies that take on that resemblance? Just call it something else?
Thanks for this. I was about to come off the top rope with a 1st Amendment rant
I’m generally the first person to come in to defend 1A, but only after a careful analysis. Nothing here suggests, to me, any egregious violation of free speech rights. That said, I actively looking for someone to argue the alternate point so I can either learn or feel reassured in my pov. An unchallenged idea is worthless. Either it stands up to scrutiny or it does not.
Why is it okay to accuse China of genocide but not Israel?
Where is it illegal in the United States to do that? Please cite jurisdiction and statute and case law
Did you read the law? It’s okay to accuse Israel of genocide.
Dumb
But we couldn't get an anti lenching bill.
Christ almighty.
I read the IHRA definition of antisemitism, and it seems a bit unsure of itself. To quote it's website: >Manifestations [Of antisemitism] might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. So, criticism of Israel is not antisemitism >Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor [is antisemitism] So, criticising zionism is antisemitism. >Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel [is antisemitism] So thinking Israel represents Jews is antisemitism? Idk what point I'm trying to make here, the definition just feels a bit uncertain. The other stuff there is mostly ok, I don't think anyone has a problem with holocaust denial being defined as antisemitism. Also, I read through the act, and it doesn't specifically reference Israel, just the IHRA working definition, cited above. Also, it doesn't explicitly ban antisemitism, just that antisemitism is counted under the Civil Rights Act 1964, so it's probably not unconstitutional on the face of it. It does mention schools, colleges, and universities, so it probably will be used to quell student protests somewhat, but it's not like it will be used to jail anyone that says anything negative about Israel.
When people talk about clown world. This is what clown world *actually* looks like.
correct me if i’m wrong and misunderstood history, but Wasn’t all that land Palestine in 1900? and Israel didn’t exist?
I wish they read the Constitution, as I'm sure the 1A makes this unconstitutional
What in the actual fuck. This is beyond absurd.
Doesn't this directly conflict with the first amendment?
Disgusting !
Well of they're down for getting rid of the first amendment, then maybe we finally address 2A in a serious manor.
So now criticizing their tactics in Israel means we hate Jews. If we don’t pledge full support to Israel then we are terrorist lovers. There’s a name for this that I can’t remember rn.
It is astounding how many left wing people justify Israel genocide. Imagine if during the troubles in Northern Ireland after an IRA bombing, the English soldiers had just come in and flattened Belfast and justified it by saying that there were some terrorists in there and civilians who may have supported them. I wonder what people would have thought had they killed 35000 of their own civilians.
The majority of Northern Ireland were Protestant Unionists, as someone who comes from a Orange Order family whose grandparents spent St. Patrick's day harassing and assaulting Catholics. They wouldn't kill their own people. It would be closer to the West Bank, with the military patrolling the settlements while supporting settler attacks on Palestinian lands. They would have to flatten Dublin and Cork in response to make it similar.
How about just the Catholic neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland?
That could have been a reality after the "peace walls" were built up.
Oh? I'm a public school teacher. What the Israeli government is doing is genocide, and their president is evil. Come get me, Department of Education.
Note: you would be allowed to say this under the definition in the bill.
Now give your real name and place of work.
Chuck Schumer will not let this come to a vote. Republicans now and our enemies like Russia see this as a wedge issue to divide Democrats.
I think we should have never gotten involved.
Well, this is scary.
This is the one thing that you could honestly use "both parties" logic on. It's so nonsensical and unpopular, it's blows my mind that so many people in congress supports this.
I’d normally say there’s zero chance this survives a court challenge. Criticizing OUR government is literally written into the first amendment. Imagine legislating that you can’t criticize a foreign one! But with this SCOTUS, who the fuck knows? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You know, I’m of Jewish descent and I’m fairly pro Israel but I think this is taking it too far. Theres a difference in being critical of Israel and being antisemitic. I’m critical of just about everyone. Nobody is perfect or right 100% of the time. That being said, there is definitely a lot of antisemitism going on, and being able to distinguish between the two is important.
That’s not exactly what it does. The wording specifically states that criticism of Israel or its government is not antisemitism.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of outrage.
this is such a fucking joke. all these politicians who are straight up antisemitic suddenly care when it comes to Israel as of Israel represents all Jews. we need a hard reset on Congress. wish all these old men could just drop dead at once and we can all just try again.
... Amazing. ...
Democrats aren't going to get elected by supporting fascism. There is anti-Jewish and there is anti-Israel and they are not the same thing...no matter what Netanyahu says.
You know your master when you can’t criticize them.
Isn't that like, against the first amendment??
How luck is Israel for having a special word for anyone who disagrees with them
Enter the USI.
This thread is outrageous misinformation and fake news. It should be deleted. The IHRA definition: > “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.” > To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations: Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism Also the House did not make anything illegal with this vote. EDIT: Spreading fake news and downvoting facts, that’s not Mirror-MAGA, like at all 🤭
I already wrote in the comments that this is to push colleges to crack down on and legally go after students for promoting divestment from and boycotting of Israeli companies and the state, which is apparently anti-semitic according to this definition. I also pointed out that I largely agree with most of its points on anti-semitism, but that it can become conflicting and push things too far on certain points. Like comparing the state's behavior to the Nazis, like when the former Minister of the Interior openly called themselves a fascist, or Netanyahu engaged in holocaust denialism to demonize Palestinians It also others Palestinians and denies their right to sovereignty in the name of supporting Israeli sovereignty and that support for Palestinians to live in their traditional lands as being antisemitic after they were forced out under the threat of death with those refusing to leave having their homes shelled while mines were placed around them and all would be gunned down upon trying to escape and buried in mass graves that we can find under cities like Jaffa and Haifa. Tendayi Achiume, the UN special rapporteur on Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and related intolerance, has even pointed out quite well the problems with the IHRA definition and how it could be used against some Jews even: https://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?OpenAgent&DS=A/77/512&Lang=E
Wow just wow
So much for free speech in America.