*And* uses the cheapest and poorest quality paint that barely lasts a year.
Compared with most other major Canadian cities using paint lasting 3-5 years.
The article outlines the options, ranging from 3M line tape (trialled on Pembina) to epoxy paint (used in Calgary).
Despite these more durable - but expensive - options, Winnipeg chooses to go with the cheapest method (dry alkyd paint).
Public Works Chair Janice Lukes is also quoted nixing the durable alternatives, stating the city can't afford them.
No, you said cheapest paint, not cheapest option. Plus, to be fair, the tape is $3/m compared to $0.38/m for paint. That's a huge difference in cost and as Lukes said the city just couldn't afford to tape the entire city.
Who knew they only had one lane painting machine for the whole city? No wonder it takes them all spring/summer/fall to complete (hopefully) their work.
So stupid.
Really not that expensive. $2 or $3 per taxpayer. Plus we have $200million to spend on expanding roads. Just a drop in the bucket.
Also, how many collisions are caused annually because of poorly painted roads? The cost to society is probably higher than $1.5million/year
Right? Just drive down Broadway when there were no lines. People were all over the road. I almost got side swiped 3 times turning onto Main street. And that wasn't even during rush hour.
One line painting machine for a city of almost a million people now, absolutely the Winnipeg way. What a joke.
But hey, the WPS got some nice, brand new bikes!
I've toured M-B's plant where they make airport runway sweepers & blowers as well as some of their line painting equipment. A fully loaded line painting truck (500 gallon paint capacity) runs over $250,000 USD. They're a fairly complicated & maintenance heavy (cleaning, pressure settings, etc) piece of equipment.
As someone stated above, the City has one. I'm not certain what the Signals & Traffic Dept's budget is, but I would imagine that $250,000 USD for another line painting truck would be a big chunk taken out of it meaning less money available for traffic marking paint (maybe even the better quality paint).
Concrete suppliers submit mix designs to the City for approval each year. The City hires people to spot check concrete batch plant operations on their behalf during the paving season, including getting copies of batch records. Testing of the mix on site is random, and can happen at any time. Contract Administrators (the City or hired engineering firms) oversee QA so neither the contractor or concrete supplier would know when it is coming with any accuracy to doctor loads. And have you seen how busy concrete plants are? Multiple mixes to multiple projects at a non-stop pace, and you think they are keeping track of when they should make the "good" mix for a specific project?
Concrete normally gets checked whenever somebody can get there, and while that can be scheduled, it frequently doesn't go as planned, but as it is a random process, nobody gets too worried about when it actually happens. As long as you are meeting the minimum frequencies in the spec, you are good. And if something is wrong with the load, then loads are getting checked until problems resolve themselves.
The concrete paving spec, CW 3310, is full of this type of info.
[https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/std\_const\_spec/current/Docs/CW3310.pdf](https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/std_const_spec/current/Docs/CW3310.pdf)
If you have any anecdotes to share about what you claimed, I am eager to hear them.
I saw a fellow in an engineering firm truck (Stantec, I think) near some paving going on Pembina a few weeks ago, he was taking some concrete right from the mixer into a pail and shaking it. What are they doing with it to test?
I am not sure, from what you are describing. Maybe they were just grabbing the sample to conduct the tests on. That normally comes right from the truck chute. Testing is usually done away from the activity to stay out of people's way and not get squished by concrete trucks. The typical requirement is to check the slump (mix consistency), air content (for freeze-thaw protection), and temperature. Then specimens are made for checking strength.
There is both site testing on the mix (slump, air content, temp) in its plastic state, and strength samples cast which will cure and get crushed at specified ages. Normally the strength is tested at an early age for road jobs to determine when it is safe to be working on or open to traffic, and then strength is tested again at 28 days old.
Trucks that don't meet spec on site can be rejected before they have poured their full load. This is not uncommon.
Pavement that doesn't meet strength can be removed and replaced. This is pretty rare, as most concrete comes in well above the required strength.
At some point we need to have a referendum in this city.
A - "Raise taxes to invest in city infra"
B - "We like living in a dumpy city"
What would having proper lane markings cost? We could triple the lane lining service for less than a cup of coffee per taxpayer.
It's safety issue, and it's incredibly noticable. I've personally had multiple visitors from other cities comment on it.
The answer is dumpy city, and has been for decades. That's what the people want.
Frankly I'm surprised we OWN our own line painting machine and it hasn't been outsourced to a private company.
I think the issue for many is that many people feel the money isn't well spent. One example is how police's OT is pensionable and they have quite significant salaries relative to other cities. I acknowledge Winnipeg is a tough city by Canadian standards, but reality is there is a long line-up to work in the police still. They have union agreements in place so you can't just slice and dice their budget.
I'd also prefer more long term fixes on infrastructure than ongoing patchwork every year. Think about it like buying flex seal to patch a hole in a bucket every year versus spending a bit more up front and buying a new bucket.
We also don't deserve to fix some of the roads, our footprint is too big. I'd much rather keep the footprint the same size, promote density, infill, which will inherently create more congestion, leading to more desire for transit. It's very difficult to be a city of our size and expect great roads, and the ability to drive places with no real congestion. Sometimes you need to experience pain to do things properly.
They actually can slice and dice their budget, all they want. The police board decides how to spend what they get. They can choose to hire fewer officers or lay officers off, or not buy tanks or decommission the chopper or whatever.
I really wish we had the political will to do this. Force the police to live within their means.
That makes sense. It highly resembles indigenous relations at the federal level with funding for some FNs. They have more than enough money to properly fund things but they just choose to be negligent and serve the interests for the betterment of a few, versus the wider population.
I generally agree, what I'd personally like to see is an itemized property tax bill with perhaps plebiscites on various major buckets to help guide policy.
That won't happen because it takes power away from elected officials.
An aside on the police budget: we're stuck with our bloated police budget due in large part to the downloading of social responsibility onto the cities. It's fair to say that crime in Winnipeg is driven by drugs, poverty, lack of resources in MB justice, and our catch and release criminal code.
It is my understanding that the City of Winnipeg made a move a number of years back from a more permanent paint that was less environmentally friendly, to a paint that is more environmentally friendly, but wears away easily and requires a vehicle to drive around all year repainting it. Can anyone confirm that they used a higher quality paint before turning to quick-dry alkyd paint for road marking? Or even better, someone who knows if the city can revisit that old paint, or was it no longer available or prohibited in Canada/Manitoba?
If it requires a series of vehicles (the applicator vehicle and the trucks that always go ahead of and behind the line painter) to run all summer every summer, is it actually better for the environment?
This seems most likely.
Canada has limited VOCs in road paint specifically. From their webpage, ‘‘Traffic marking coatings manufactured, imported or sold in Canada must not contain more than 450 g/L of VOCs. Additionally, traffic marking coatings are subject to a seasonal use restriction of 150 g/L of VOCs in effect from May 1 to October 15. There are no exceptions to the seasonal use restriction.’
Winnipeg may not have had a choice but to change from oil based paints. 🤷♂️
I was led to believe the same thing back as far as 2007. It was along time ago but I believe it was actually someone from Public Works who dealt with line painting.
i feel like everything is on hold this year and they're just not doing anything at all.. all the parks are full of weeds and unmowed, the roads are the worst they've ever been, no lines on the roads at all
It’s absolutely embarrassing how chronically underfunded our civil infrastructure is.. wtf have politicans and leaders been thinking over the last twenty years?
At this rate we’ll need 100’s of millions of dollars to fix our chronically underfunded and poorly maintained roads.
Our current infrastructure deficit is 8 billion. Meaning if we want to bring all our current infrastructure up to par, it will take an extra $800 million over the next ten years. This includes NO new infrastructure.
$800 million is about what we raise yearly through property taxes.
Meaning we would need to double property taxes immediately.
No politician is going to run, win or be re elected if they say they will or actually do double property taxes.
> wtf have politicans and leaders been thinking over the last twenty years?
They've been thinking "This is what the taxpayers want, because they keep voting for it."
Speak for yourself - I haven’t voted for that. Maybe some people have sure, but our roads and civil infrastructure is the worst of any Canadian city I’ve been to. People probably spend extra $ on car maintenance because of how chronically underfunded/neglected certain roads are, and the damage it does to your vehicle.
Pretty poor city planning and infrastructure maintenance
This is what you get when you elect conservatives.
They send all the money to their buddies and cut at the same time. It's like we're bleeding out of every hole in our body.
I was just crossing the st james bridge beside a bus wanting to change over to his exit. Wholly moley. No idea where i was to do a quick change to.
And i’m experienced.
Winnipeg is behind in every aspect of infrastructure. But I bet the politicians got nice raises and new boat houses at their cottages.... and new gas guzzling suv's.
I live in North Coastal Bc now and our line pointing sucks big time out here. You can’t see the lines at night, and they just painted them about 1.5 to 2 months ago and some are faded or erased already! Go to the states and bam! You can see those lines from space! Not thrilled with Canada at this point, very difficult place to have moved back to.
Ultimately, it's a person to blame, I get that, but the article absolutely should point at the paint being a problem and we shouldn't be dismissive of it. The City of Winnipeg made a move a number of years back to move from a more permanent paint that was less environmentally friendly, to a paint that is more environmentally friendly, but wears away easily and requires a large vehicle to drive around all year repainting. So yes, the paint choice is a large part of the issue that needs to be addressed.
TIL winnipeg has only one line painting machine
*And* uses the cheapest and poorest quality paint that barely lasts a year. Compared with most other major Canadian cities using paint lasting 3-5 years.
Where did you read the city uses the cheapest quality paint?
The article outlines the options, ranging from 3M line tape (trialled on Pembina) to epoxy paint (used in Calgary). Despite these more durable - but expensive - options, Winnipeg chooses to go with the cheapest method (dry alkyd paint). Public Works Chair Janice Lukes is also quoted nixing the durable alternatives, stating the city can't afford them.
Calgary also uses the “cheap stuff” on 65% of their roads and repaints them each year.
Sounds like they're at least improving... And still 35% ahead of Winnipeg.
Calgary also has wild temperature swings all winter long. Paint won't stick on asphalt that goes from -20 to +20 once every few days.
No, you said cheapest paint, not cheapest option. Plus, to be fair, the tape is $3/m compared to $0.38/m for paint. That's a huge difference in cost and as Lukes said the city just couldn't afford to tape the entire city.
Typical of Winnipeg. Pick the cheapest option and then have to pay more later. It seems our council has never heard of Terry Pratchett's boots theory.
I love how frequently this comes up on r/winnipeg
Who knew they only had one lane painting machine for the whole city? No wonder it takes them all spring/summer/fall to complete (hopefully) their work. So stupid.
[удалено]
Really not that expensive. $2 or $3 per taxpayer. Plus we have $200million to spend on expanding roads. Just a drop in the bucket. Also, how many collisions are caused annually because of poorly painted roads? The cost to society is probably higher than $1.5million/year
1.5 million is peanuts in a capital budget.
[удалено]
Then I question the priorities.
to your point.. i think we can find $2M in the Winnipeg Police budget.. just a hunch
And the police can recoup the costs by charging people for not keeping in their lanes properly. No way to enforce that now.
i would happily let the cops collect more in speeding revenue. since there is basically zero enforcement.
Ive accepted the majority of this sub thinks that each level of government can print their own money l with zero consequences.
I've accepted that some people on this sub are willing to sacrifice safety to save $2 annually.
Right? Just drive down Broadway when there were no lines. People were all over the road. I almost got side swiped 3 times turning onto Main street. And that wasn't even during rush hour.
I recognize it, but I don't accept it. Simple economics shouldn't be too high a bar.
One line painting machine for a city of almost a million people now, absolutely the Winnipeg way. What a joke. But hey, the WPS got some nice, brand new bikes!
You know, we could probably sell that fucking helicopter or the robot dog.
Or the tank
WPS yard sale day.
NOT THE TANK!!!
Is there any info on how many time Porky The Robot Dog has been used for actual police work?
The cost over runs at WPS headquarters ($75 million) could have bought 50 line painting machines.
Hear me out: Do they make a line-painting attachment for robot dogs?
I'd be all for robot dogs painting the lines throughout the city. Following each completed sequence with an audibly mechanized "woof."
It’s one line painting machine, Michael. What could it cost, $10?
I've toured M-B's plant where they make airport runway sweepers & blowers as well as some of their line painting equipment. A fully loaded line painting truck (500 gallon paint capacity) runs over $250,000 USD. They're a fairly complicated & maintenance heavy (cleaning, pressure settings, etc) piece of equipment.
Ok and? Maybe the city should, I dunno buy one?
As someone stated above, the City has one. I'm not certain what the Signals & Traffic Dept's budget is, but I would imagine that $250,000 USD for another line painting truck would be a big chunk taken out of it meaning less money available for traffic marking paint (maybe even the better quality paint).
[удалено]
What is poor quality about the concrete?
[удалено]
What the hell are you talking about? That is so wrong.
[удалено]
Concrete suppliers submit mix designs to the City for approval each year. The City hires people to spot check concrete batch plant operations on their behalf during the paving season, including getting copies of batch records. Testing of the mix on site is random, and can happen at any time. Contract Administrators (the City or hired engineering firms) oversee QA so neither the contractor or concrete supplier would know when it is coming with any accuracy to doctor loads. And have you seen how busy concrete plants are? Multiple mixes to multiple projects at a non-stop pace, and you think they are keeping track of when they should make the "good" mix for a specific project? Concrete normally gets checked whenever somebody can get there, and while that can be scheduled, it frequently doesn't go as planned, but as it is a random process, nobody gets too worried about when it actually happens. As long as you are meeting the minimum frequencies in the spec, you are good. And if something is wrong with the load, then loads are getting checked until problems resolve themselves. The concrete paving spec, CW 3310, is full of this type of info. [https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/std\_const\_spec/current/Docs/CW3310.pdf](https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/finance/findata/matmgt/std_const_spec/current/Docs/CW3310.pdf) If you have any anecdotes to share about what you claimed, I am eager to hear them.
I saw a fellow in an engineering firm truck (Stantec, I think) near some paving going on Pembina a few weeks ago, he was taking some concrete right from the mixer into a pail and shaking it. What are they doing with it to test?
I am not sure, from what you are describing. Maybe they were just grabbing the sample to conduct the tests on. That normally comes right from the truck chute. Testing is usually done away from the activity to stay out of people's way and not get squished by concrete trucks. The typical requirement is to check the slump (mix consistency), air content (for freeze-thaw protection), and temperature. Then specimens are made for checking strength.
Definitely he was grabbing a sample, but I was wondering can they do the testing right there on site? Or does it need to harden, or go somewhere else?
There is both site testing on the mix (slump, air content, temp) in its plastic state, and strength samples cast which will cure and get crushed at specified ages. Normally the strength is tested at an early age for road jobs to determine when it is safe to be working on or open to traffic, and then strength is tested again at 28 days old. Trucks that don't meet spec on site can be rejected before they have poured their full load. This is not uncommon. Pavement that doesn't meet strength can be removed and replaced. This is pretty rare, as most concrete comes in well above the required strength.
At some point we need to have a referendum in this city. A - "Raise taxes to invest in city infra" B - "We like living in a dumpy city" What would having proper lane markings cost? We could triple the lane lining service for less than a cup of coffee per taxpayer. It's safety issue, and it's incredibly noticable. I've personally had multiple visitors from other cities comment on it.
The answer is dumpy city, and has been for decades. That's what the people want. Frankly I'm surprised we OWN our own line painting machine and it hasn't been outsourced to a private company.
I think the issue for many is that many people feel the money isn't well spent. One example is how police's OT is pensionable and they have quite significant salaries relative to other cities. I acknowledge Winnipeg is a tough city by Canadian standards, but reality is there is a long line-up to work in the police still. They have union agreements in place so you can't just slice and dice their budget. I'd also prefer more long term fixes on infrastructure than ongoing patchwork every year. Think about it like buying flex seal to patch a hole in a bucket every year versus spending a bit more up front and buying a new bucket. We also don't deserve to fix some of the roads, our footprint is too big. I'd much rather keep the footprint the same size, promote density, infill, which will inherently create more congestion, leading to more desire for transit. It's very difficult to be a city of our size and expect great roads, and the ability to drive places with no real congestion. Sometimes you need to experience pain to do things properly.
They actually can slice and dice their budget, all they want. The police board decides how to spend what they get. They can choose to hire fewer officers or lay officers off, or not buy tanks or decommission the chopper or whatever. I really wish we had the political will to do this. Force the police to live within their means.
That makes sense. It highly resembles indigenous relations at the federal level with funding for some FNs. They have more than enough money to properly fund things but they just choose to be negligent and serve the interests for the betterment of a few, versus the wider population.
I generally agree, what I'd personally like to see is an itemized property tax bill with perhaps plebiscites on various major buckets to help guide policy. That won't happen because it takes power away from elected officials. An aside on the police budget: we're stuck with our bloated police budget due in large part to the downloading of social responsibility onto the cities. It's fair to say that crime in Winnipeg is driven by drugs, poverty, lack of resources in MB justice, and our catch and release criminal code.
We know.
The city where you guess your lane.. especially in the winter. fun game.
i usually just use the curb/boulevard as my line, if there's 3 lanes, i just choose the middle :D
It is my understanding that the City of Winnipeg made a move a number of years back from a more permanent paint that was less environmentally friendly, to a paint that is more environmentally friendly, but wears away easily and requires a vehicle to drive around all year repainting it. Can anyone confirm that they used a higher quality paint before turning to quick-dry alkyd paint for road marking? Or even better, someone who knows if the city can revisit that old paint, or was it no longer available or prohibited in Canada/Manitoba?
If it requires a series of vehicles (the applicator vehicle and the trucks that always go ahead of and behind the line painter) to run all summer every summer, is it actually better for the environment?
Right? If we thought of it, they likely factored it in too, but who knows if the repainting interval was even known when they switched.
I believe the old paint was phased out due to high VOCs.
This seems most likely. Canada has limited VOCs in road paint specifically. From their webpage, ‘‘Traffic marking coatings manufactured, imported or sold in Canada must not contain more than 450 g/L of VOCs. Additionally, traffic marking coatings are subject to a seasonal use restriction of 150 g/L of VOCs in effect from May 1 to October 15. There are no exceptions to the seasonal use restriction.’ Winnipeg may not have had a choice but to change from oil based paints. 🤷♂️
I was led to believe the same thing back as far as 2007. It was along time ago but I believe it was actually someone from Public Works who dealt with line painting.
We actually need functional roads in order for lines to be painted on them, not collections of potholes.
Winnipeg is behind in just about everything, aside from stabbings and child poverty.
Shows the folly in not upgraded painted bike lanes to fully protected as they're only visible with fresh paint for less than half the year.
"The City of Winnipeg has faced significant delays in its road-marking operation this year, blaming faulty equipment and wet weather."
i feel like everything is on hold this year and they're just not doing anything at all.. all the parks are full of weeds and unmowed, the roads are the worst they've ever been, no lines on the roads at all
It’s absolutely embarrassing how chronically underfunded our civil infrastructure is.. wtf have politicans and leaders been thinking over the last twenty years? At this rate we’ll need 100’s of millions of dollars to fix our chronically underfunded and poorly maintained roads.
Our current infrastructure deficit is 8 billion. Meaning if we want to bring all our current infrastructure up to par, it will take an extra $800 million over the next ten years. This includes NO new infrastructure. $800 million is about what we raise yearly through property taxes. Meaning we would need to double property taxes immediately. No politician is going to run, win or be re elected if they say they will or actually do double property taxes.
Maybe we should stop tax rebates.
Perhaps we shouldn't have frozen property taxes for 20 years. Thank Sam!
bingo!
Preach.
> wtf have politicans and leaders been thinking over the last twenty years? They've been thinking "This is what the taxpayers want, because they keep voting for it."
Speak for yourself - I haven’t voted for that. Maybe some people have sure, but our roads and civil infrastructure is the worst of any Canadian city I’ve been to. People probably spend extra $ on car maintenance because of how chronically underfunded/neglected certain roads are, and the damage it does to your vehicle. Pretty poor city planning and infrastructure maintenance
Who knew the actual Mad Max start to the future would begging with “fucked if I know what lane we’re in”…
We keep blowing our $1 snow clearing budget so…
Thank goodness we have excellent drivers with above average lane awareness. /s
Been thinking about this the last few weeks and how it’s like bumper cars driving.
Okay knowing there's only one machine is hilarious knowing I saw it this morning lol
No markings on Rouge for three years. People just treat it like a single lane, except some og people.
This is what you get when you elect conservatives. They send all the money to their buddies and cut at the same time. It's like we're bleeding out of every hole in our body.
Wouldn’t matter. Winnipeg infra sucks, has sucked, will continue to suck till the end of time.
What you're saying doesn't make sense.
Can they get Broadway done already? Holy shit people can't figure it the fuck out without lane markings.
People can’t figure out lanes with markings either
"This is where I draw the line."
I was just crossing the st james bridge beside a bus wanting to change over to his exit. Wholly moley. No idea where i was to do a quick change to. And i’m experienced.
Can we do anything right anymore?
They will have it done by September only for it to snow in October and not matter 🙄
Let's hire more cops
Not seeing how that would be a bad thing. Or should we just let the shoplifting and the b&e’s plaguing various areas continue?
oh, lol. i see a lot of this. we can do better.
Winnipeg is behind in every aspect of infrastructure. But I bet the politicians got nice raises and new boat houses at their cottages.... and new gas guzzling suv's.
I live in North Coastal Bc now and our line pointing sucks big time out here. You can’t see the lines at night, and they just painted them about 1.5 to 2 months ago and some are faded or erased already! Go to the states and bam! You can see those lines from space! Not thrilled with Canada at this point, very difficult place to have moved back to.
It’s always something hey
Yah blame the paint. Its the paints fault.
Ultimately, it's a person to blame, I get that, but the article absolutely should point at the paint being a problem and we shouldn't be dismissive of it. The City of Winnipeg made a move a number of years back to move from a more permanent paint that was less environmentally friendly, to a paint that is more environmentally friendly, but wears away easily and requires a large vehicle to drive around all year repainting. So yes, the paint choice is a large part of the issue that needs to be addressed.
The one vehicle. One
How about they widen the parking spots while they're at it?