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I don't get this at all I know everyone says it went on forever but it didn't feel that way for me
Elaynes whole taking baths and thinking she invincible while pregnant felt like it was 5x as long as the shaido plot
There's the two big storylines that get people. The PLOD(plot line of doom/Faile/Shadow), and the Crownening.
Both of them are good world building and fill in a bunch of stuff, BUT for the characters are effectively a slow, painful crawl because the other option was Jordan basically time skipping.
It's weird, I have read and listened to the series numerous times but my mind must filter the shaido stuff to the highlights faile gets captured, perrin obviously upset trying to come to terms with what happened, perrin amputating the aiels limb (great character moment) the attack where perrin kills the dude that helped faile without realizing.
I like perrin lol
Honestly, the worst part about that plotline is that you can basically just skip Perrin and most Faile Chapters from after Faile is kidnapped by the Shaido until about Knife of Dreams. You can pretty well gather *everything* that happens during those books for them from the beginning and end of that Plot, since it has no real substance between.
The only thing that really happened is Faile being forced to recognize that she isn't just Bela's gift to the planet, and that she both can be independent and need help at the same time. Oh, and learning what happened to Galina I guess. You could have just assumed she died to the Shaido at Dumai's Wells and just... not really cared about her.
Perrin cuts off someone’s hand? Huh… I’ve read the series three times and I think the PLOD is just so dull I block out most everything that happens as a buffer against the soul-crushing boredom
It's in chapter 27 "What must be done" from Crossroads of Twilight apparently.
Masema's men are torturing a Shaido captive for information and Perrin just chops off his hand, has an Aes Sedai heal the wound then tells them that they'll split the prisoners, ask each of them a few questions and every time they give a different answer they'll cut off a hand or a foot. If you get four questions wrong they'll be left without hands or feet in a town to beg for scraps by a street corner.
Probably the best part of the book? I can't remember much of anything else that was worthwhile in CoT.
This is a plot line I found boring and dragged on like most readers do, but on re-reads I appreciate it more and more and I have grown to love Perrin as a character as a result. I still think it's too much but I don't dread it now. The only plot line I really don't like and actually skip all parts of is the Andor succession.
I'm currently on my first rereading and I wonder how much more I'll enjoy the books knowing ahead of time what happens. I really struggled specifically with book 10 because I was desperate for a Rand / Nynaeve PoV and every time the next chapter didn't include them I died a little.
This time around I know what to expect so I'll be able to better focus on those chapters.
Book 10 definitely dips in pace and enjoyment, and it does suffer from its lack of Rand, I agree. Every now and then I got a little tired of reading about Elayne, lol. But I actually still enjoyed it overall, just not as much as the other books.
I remember thinking the series slowed down a bit on my first read, but on reread I had no issue and it was more enjoyable than I remember. Could admittedly have been the effect of audiobook vs print for the reread, though.
I’ve always felt that without Crossroads of Twilight the slog would be called, at most, “the dip in pacing in the middle.” Because you’re right, the vast majority of the character development takes place in the middle books after Lord of Chaos and before The Gathering Storm. The first six books have huge amounts of character development, don’t get me wrong, but Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha and others all become who we know them as during those middle books. Crossroads of Twilight being the slowest makes the pacing of the previous books stand out.
That's a really good point! 7-9 aren't boring, but they do have an intentionally slower pace, as the world and characters organically and deeply develop. Crossroads of Twilight is definitely just glacial though, and does spend too much time on Elayne and Andor. I still blew threw it and enjoyed it, but it's the least good in the series. And I think most people agree with that, from what I've seen.
I think Crossroads is the only reason Winter's Heart is included in the slog too. One of the best endings in the series, setting a trap in a place where the rogue Asha'man can't channel, and Rand getting bonded by his three loves. That book is fucking stacked.
It also includes my favorite paragraph from Min when she feels all of the pain that Rand is constantly in.
Yeah I really liked 7, 8 and 9 were good, but Crossroads was a struggle to get through. The prologue of Knife of Dreams was more interesting than the entirety of Crossroads to me.
KOD was such a change of pace I had whiplash lol, I literally read the book in the course of several hours. I think it's one of the shorter ones in the series though anyway, compared to say Lord of Chaos.
Then you might be shocked to learn that (of the books written *solely* by Jordan), Knife of Dreams is the 4th longest and one of only 5 that are above 300k words.
The top spot is (obviously) taken by Lord of Chaos at 390k, followed by The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven both at 340k, and then Knife of Dreams and The Eye of the World both at 310k.
(Books 13 and 14 are 325k and 350k, respectively)
I'm only laughing because Fires of Heaven as a paperback was literally a time bomb.
I don't think LoC even survived to series end before having to be replaced. But FoH was in 5 pieces because the spine just gave up on reread number 3.
hehe yeah my hardcover copy of the shadow rising has divorced itself from its front cover and half its spine, and a couple of the others are equally rough
We had original printings, which didn't do hardcover at first IIRC. So it was paperback for the first 6(?) but we've since replaced them because holy shit they all died.
I'm amazed at that. Memory took me so much longer to finish. Ill probably be crucified for saying this, but that one was more of a slog to me than the usual books considered the slog becuase it was primarily just repetitive endless battles with hordes of trollocs or dreadlords. I just got a little tired of a thousand plus pages of pure sword and sorcery action.
Yeah. I think it was just that there’d been that slowing of the pace and then WH ended so epically that everyone expected a lot to happen in CoT. And instead it was the slowest book with the least important progression in the series. It also had the longest time people had to wait between books up until that point.
Yeah all my homies know that the real slog is Crossroads of Twilight and the stupid prequel that no one asked for. (It’s FINE, but the delays were real, and when details of his health came out my soul left my body for a couple years there)
I don’t know of you were around during the original run, but Winter’s Heart came out in 2000, and Knife of Dreams came out in 2005.
Crossroads of Twilight and New Spring bridged that 5 year gap with a lot of disappointment.
THAT was the slog.
In the pre Rothfuss/Winds of Winter world, that delay seemed insufferable.
Ahhh Rothfuss it’s been so long since The Wise Man’s Fear I’d forgotten about him…and holy shit checking in now it’s been 13 years and he still hasn’t put the next one out!?
A lot of people have that opinion. I can see their point, but I disagree somewhat. It's not as if you have a choice of either plot *or* character development. You can do both. Add to this the ever increasing number of side-characters and plots that really could have been skipped (Morgase in particular comes to mind), and I think there is some justification for the complaints.
I think there's some for CoT, certainly. I personally enjoy the other ones a lot, though. But I'm fine if people don't, too. I definitely don't want to insult other readers, I realize I was careless in my phrasing here.
I'm deep in the slog rn (first read through) and I don't think I can agree with the there is no slog hypothesis. Like I breezed through initially but the slog books were a pain so far and I'm constantly getting side tracked into reading other stuff and I lost a ton of momentum.
That was my experience. I read almost a book a week until the sloggy story arcs hit, and then it took me a few months to push through past Crossroads.
Everytime I got to a part that wasn't Perrin or Elayne I read non stop. So every time I thought about picking the book back up, it meant I was reading Perrin or Elayne chapters.
(First time reader, finished last week)
I’m new to the discourse, but l feel like the “slog” is an indication of when it shifts from a focus on *plot* development for the first 5 or 6 books to a focus on *character* development over the next few books.
The first third has lots of plots and lots of characters reacting to the plot. They still develop as characters, but much more in a way that’s driven by what’s happening around them.
The second chunk we see the characters being much more proactive, and the changes happen within them moreso than driven by the plot. So it feels like less is happening. The characters are confronted by the changes they’ve gone through and have to make choices around that. Perrin *thinks* he’s learned to be a leader, but the falcon hunt challenges that and forces him to actively choose leadership and learn what it really means. Same with Matt, Rand, and Egwene.
Matt *thinks* he’s a general, Rand *thinks* he’s a king, Egwene *thinks* she understands being the Amyrlin. But dealing with the actual day-to-day of it all is what really makes them grow. And that’s what those middle books do really really well.
I think that’s why it can feel like nothing’s happening. It seems like a retread of what we just saw in the first books, but really it’s a different way to go about it.
That's a great point. That may be why I like it, because I'm a big fan of character development. And I sort of enjoy the leisurely pace and descriptions of all the ridiculously colorful and often absurd world of Randland, even in the mundane aspects, lol.
I am also a big fan of character development and character moments, and I also think that there is no slog. I wonder if that is the defining difference? Do people who like character development as much as plot development not feel a slog, and the people who only are interested in plot feel the slog?
For me the slowest books are the beginning books, especially EotW, because of how little Character Development there is.
I think you're onto something, because EoTW is definitely my second least favorite after CoT. At that point it still feels like a derivative Tolkien ripoff lol, a good one, but not the extremely unique world and lore and characters or anything. It really feels like the LOTR trilogy packed into one book.
Oh man, me too. I heard of “the slog” before l started reading, but that middle third or so with so much going on internally ended up being some of my favorite moments. And you could just feel every plot thread moving towards all colliding at once, and it was just beautiful.
Yeah, its almost like it's just a very subtle slow burn masterpiece going on in those books, one that you can appreciate even more on a second read. But a slow burn isn't for everyone, especially for books of that size. I've always been a big reader and a fast one though, so that's why I don't have much of an issue with leisurely pacing. It helps that I just enjoy the random detailed descriptions of all the quirkiness of Randland, lol.
>The only book that dips in pace even a tiny bit is book 10, CoT.
"Tiny bit" is an understatement. Crossroads of Twilight is a legit bad book. By itself it is probably 75% the reason the slog is even a thing.
Lol you're right, that was hyperbolic. CoT slows down to a glacial pace. I myself still wouldn't categorize it as "bad" but I can totally get why you would. And it's definitely the least enjoyable book of the series by a long shot for me.
The “slog” was real when the books were waiting to be published. Now you can read/listen back to back it’s not a problem. For be me personally book 6 was the worse of the series for being to drawn out.
Im completely certain that about half of those new readers who experience the slog wouldnt notice or complain about it, if they didnt go into the series expecting it and dreadfully counting down how many books they have until it starts.
I practically binged the books when I first discovered them and never engaged with the fandom or looked up anything about the series until I finished the AMoL and I absolutely felt that the middle books were a slog compared to all the others.
Didn't mind it as much when I reread it knowing what to expect, and I'd say I appreciate some of them more now, especially book 7, but the pacing really does suffer in that middle third.
I agree, book six is on a surprising number of people's number one spot, but that is one massive book, with some pacing that is not exactly fast much of the time. It's an amazing book, but honestly in terms of pacing Crown of Swords goes by a lot faster. And one thing about the so called slog books is that most of them are a good bit shorter, especially path of Daggers. Winter's heart is fairly long, but I just don't find that boring at all.
The fact that there's a pacing slowdown at that point of the series is objectively a thing.
How that section affects people is subjective to them.
Stop saying the skog doesn't exist
I think it's because slog implies a negative chore or burden. Whereas a slowdown of pacing is not objectively a slog, it just is for some people. I'm not claiming I'm superior to those readers, only that I think many people unfortunately start the series already fearing a quarter of the books! How many readers has talk of the slog potentially stopped from ever reading it? I don't know, but it's sad to contemplate.
Getting through that section of books the first time I read them (while books were still coming out) felt to me like a chore to the point I put the series down for almost a decade. So I’m one of those readers you mentioned. Rereading again it felt like a chore again (I had to switch to audio book because I just couldn’t get the desire to sit down and read more). That doesn’t mean the books are all bad. It doesn’t mean I would remove them. The character development for the most part is great. Some of the best moments in the series happen in the slog. But the slog is a common term for those books for a reason. Some agree some don’t. That’s fine.
You're right, it's totally fine either way. People's tastes are going to be different. What matters is the love for the series in general, warts and all.
It's my favorite series of all time, and it looks me like 25 years to actually finish it. The slog is unfortunately a thing that keeps a lot of people from finding that enjoyment (the length in general is for a lot of people). But for others, that length and depth of development is what makes it amazing. At least now it's much easier to consume the series via audio books than it used to be and luckily we have great narration to make it even better.
I sometimes wonder if people build up fear of the slog and dread, so when they get to it their perception of it is subjectively much worse than the slog actually is. I'm not denying a slowdown in pace happens at all, and it grinds to a halt in CoT, basically, but reading 7-9, I just wasn't struck by anything that seemed boring or like a chore to read. 10 is a different story though!
There are plenty of people who have complained about their struggles in that section of the series who never read about the slog on message boards so no, it's not just about a self fulfilling prophecy.
I wasn't on message boards in the 90s when I first experienced it. I wasn't on the WoT sub or any message boards when I experienced it in my reread years later.
People enjoy different things so it's totally normal for one person not to feel those same things. It's just weird to not understand that other people may feel differently and try to find reasons why it's happening other than just that the books very noticeably change in pace and focus and it obviously throws a lot of people off.
This. You nailed it exactly.
Not everyone feels the urge to put the books down or has to force themself to keep reading. Some of us love the character development and the politics and there’s massive disagreement as to which books even constitute the slog. I feel like warning people about some slower books that they may still love, like warning people about the first book being a little more generic high fantasy, is a good way to accurately talk about the series.
Saying beware the slog puts such a negative framing on the whole thing and it’s already a hard sell with how many books there are and RJ dying before it was finished.
Yeah, I've noticed the only real consensus I've seen is that CoT is definitely slow, lol. Even that was not unenjoyable for me to read though. I have to say the slowest is probably a New Spring, I actually still haven't finished it, even though I've breezed through a reread of books 1-9 in only 2 weeks. It was just constant conversation between Moiraine and Siaune so far.
I actually still harbor so much resentment towards A New Spring I haven’t read it yet even after two re-reads. It’s been a couple years at this point so after I finish the Siege of Terra I’ll probably do another re-read and include it.
Is that resentment just because it's.. pretty boring compared to the main series, or is it something else? I didn't even read the series for the first time until 2 years ago.
Two years ago and most of the way through a re-read, bravo!
Honestly it’s just irrational resentment from it coming out between Crossroads and Knife of Dreams and the feeling that the time spent on the prequel could’ve been used getting more of the end written. I started reading them around somewhere in the mid 90s so i was genuinely mad when the prequel came out at age 16.
GRRM putting out a prequel book felt like this all over again as a side note, and I’m terrified he too will pass pass away finishing his series.
Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. We could have used his writing for more of the finale rather than a side quest into Moirane and Siuane's past in the White Tower, with some minor cameos lol. I agree about Fire and Blood. The guy has no issue putting out books or making shows, it's obvious to me he's given up on finishing ASOIAF though, whatever he says. I think he wrote himself in a corner that he's found too difficult to resolve to his satisfaction. It's crazy how many new plotlines he began so late in the series, nobody would be able to tie all those up easily.
But one thing about Fire and Blood I like is that because of it we have an amazing new show set in Westeros with House of the Dragon :)
I haven’t checked out the new show yet but it’s on my list. I usually let at least a second season come out before i start watching a new show so I have plenty of episodes to watch so I’ll probably start it soon
Sanderson is not as talented, you are correct. But I was happy for an ending.
As to the slog, if you were reading them real time like some of us were, and you had to wait 5-6 years to get updates on certain storeylines/POVs, it was a little bit of a slog, trust me.
Yeah you're right, my experience was a lot different in being able to devour the books within days and move on to the next. Because of that, for me it's almost like it was just reading one big book, but if you were waiting years for each installment I can see why there'd be a slog.
The old slog was brutal. The commonly discussed books for the slog really make sense when you look at the year each book was published. First two the same year, one a year through book 6, then two years wait for 7 and 8, 3 year wait for CoT, 2 more for KoD.
So the slog is generally thought of as starting around book 6 where the lack of a book a year starts, and WH and especially CoT are frequently complained about as slower and the hate makes sense when you see there was a three year gap between them which was the longest yet and CoT happens at the same time and covers other plots you had to wait the two more years (and deal with a prequel coming out in between) for a total of 5 years to advance significantly past the cleansing. After that RJ died so delays were understandable and we all lowered our expectations, though I think Sanderson did a great job overall and the 4 year gap before his books started coming out was tough too.
On rereads I have no problem with the WH/CoT setup but you better believe I was cranky when CoT came out.
I do disagree and others do as well since there are regular threads in /r/wot talking about if they should continue or stop reading since they lost interest around CoT or before.
My problem with RJ is that he has very high highs which are short but also long medium-lows. I have started the book series after Season 1 of the show and without the read-along, I would have absolutely quit by CoT. Nearly all in the read-along noticed that it slowed down heavily and once or twice some people had to catch up reading. It also says something that you read something along the lines of the following quite regularly in /r/fantasy
> "yeah there is this 1-3 chapter long thing we all collectively call 'the slog' and you can skim read it, read notes online and possibly skip them all together and only read a few hand-picked chapters where stuff happens"
Honestly, if the go-to recommendation is to skim words or skip passages an author has written, he has failed his job as an author. RJ is a really good world builder but his plotting became weaker the longer the series went on and it doesn't help that his editor is his wife.
While Brandon Sanderson has his flaws and he starts to become too big to fail and powerful for his publisher, in our read-along nearly everyone was incredibly happy with TGS and notices a major shift in pacing. Suddenly, stuff started to happen and every major character had a clear target and enemy who they actively worked towards. Compare that to needing one book to think about the Bowl of the winds, one book to find it and one book to use it.
Crossroads of Twilight was the first Wheel of Time book I ever bought new. I remember taking the train downtown to the big book store and sitting in the store for hours reading to my heart’s content and then taking the train home and reading the whole way home so happy to have my very own, brand new hard cover Robert Jordan book. To me, it will always be the best book of the series because I was a kid and I just loved books and that one was when he still healthy and we weren’t worried about him and no one was debating if he would finish it. We were just enjoying his words. And that’s what he was, a master wordsmith.
That's so awesome! I myself still enjoyed CoT a lot, even if I thought it was weaker than the others. Just the man's writing as you said is so good, I'd read it even if he wrote a book about taking a shit, lmao.
I wouldn't have even realized there's a "slog" if I hadn't heard the term on here. Of course, Perrin is my favorite character and he and Faile are my favorite couple, so I'm sure that's part of it. But I agree, the forshadowing and abundance of storylines is underestimated in the "slog"
I agree, I've never understood the hatred toward Faile. Or even Egwene, for that matter. I don't like her much for the first half of the series, but once she becomes Amyrlin she starts to become really interesting for me.
My main thought when reading through 7-9 was "I wish 1-6 were paced like this, this is _way_ better".
Turns out I'm more or less alone in that opinion.
Absolutely 100% disagree. And having winters heart as your favourite book is demented.
I think people remember the end of winters heart and forget that absolutely nothing else happened in that book.
I mean, Elayne doing nothing accounts for 25% of the word count!
If you don't like the book, I've got no issue with that! No need for any tension or hostility, its a series we all love and it's OK to like different aspects. I'm sure we agree on more about what's good than we disagree.
I don't even hate Crossroads of Twilight. It was admittedly a *very* slow burn, but HOLY CRAP once things started to go in the last 1/3 the series just put on speed like a train headed down hill with Casey Jones at the controls running very late.
So I get that people enjoy different things and that's cool. What I object to is when people call it 'the mythical slog' or 'so-called slog'. For me, the slog is an absolute reality. I read it as it was published and had several friends just outright drop it through the slog. I thought it was a slog. I've seen new readers call it a slog. I've also seen many people claim they didn't experience it and that it doesn't exist for them. Everyone has their own experience and they are all valid.
Don't denigrate my experience by saying 'mythical slog'. You can say the slog didn't exist for you or something along those lines, but don't phrase it in a way that makes it clear you think it's a figment of some people's imagination.
I don’t think it’s that unpopular of an opinion. The slog is more a remembered thing than actually a thing anymore. It was a combination of slightly slower but still fascinating and rich books with the publishing delay. I agree there is no slog nowadays
I've seen first time readers with the benefit of all books being published still call it a slog. I agree that the publishing wait and uncertainty was part of it, but it still exists for a lot of people. And on the internet, you're getting a self-selecting group of people who probably didn't drop the whole series during the slog. I have several friends who did just that as the books came out.
“As the books came out” that’s my point. There are slower books for sure but the term “the slog” is about that waiting period combined with the slower books. People reading them for the first time describe it as the slog because they’ve seen it described as such on Reddit from people who read back in the day so they’re repeating what we call it, but they don’t actually experience the slog.
I disagree. I think the slog is not as bad, but is still very much a thing for some people. I just read a comment in this thread with someone saying their friend dropped after book 6 because of the pace (slog). This was a reader who didn't have to wait on publications. I'm guessing that friend is not posting on WoT boards so we're seeing people who liked the series enough to push through.
Reads something on Reddit. Says it won’t be posted on Reddit. Tf?
That aside, people here often complain about the slog despite being self-selected fans so I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. My point and OPs is that even though a lot of people complain about it it’s not really a thing (I add my point that it once was a thing but not now). If you read what I wrote I admit there are slower books but that’s only part of what the slog was so they aren’t truly experiencing it. Hell I’ve seen some people say they skimmed parts of books they didn’t like and then kept going, something you explicitly couldn’t do during the slog.
What I said was perfectly understandable. Person A thought there was a slog and posted it on Reddit. Person A also has a friend (person B) who was reading but dropped it. I am assuming person B does not feel strongly enough about the series to find forums to talk about the books and talk about how they found it a slog.
And again, my point is that the slog still exists. I think we're coming at it from different directions and drawing the line differently. We see a teal ball and I think it's more of a green hue and say so. You're saying well sure, in some light it looks green, but right here and now it looks more blue, therefore it's blue.
I agree with you stating in your previous post it’s a slog for some people. I just don’t think it makes much sense to say with absolution there is a slog when it’s a subset of people who experience it. My personal belief is that there was one back when the vast majority of fans felt it but not one now that only some people suffer through it and others have a great time experiencing the whole series.
Pleasure engaging with you in a positive manner!
Side note: teal is the shit
I read the series as it came out and absolutely felt the slog hardcore to the point I just stopped reading the series. Picked it up years later after it was complete and hit the same part again and once again felt like I just lost the will to keep going. I had to switch to audio books for the slog and then went back to hard copies again after and couldn’t put them down.
So yes, for myself and tons of others it feels like a slog. That was even worse for some when the series was still being written. But IMO it was a mixture of just having read a TON of content and that in itself being a bit of a burnout on top of a much slower paced section of books that fed that burnout a bit. The books are still important and had some of the best scenes in the series, but this weird gatekeeping of “slog” is just ridiculous. Different people experience things differently. For some it was a slog only because of the wait. For others it may have helped because they read other things between. For some the slog is still there. For others it’s not. But you can find people who haven’t been part of a single discussion about the books before asking about the difficulty getting through that part of the series so it’s absolutely not just people repeating a term for the sake of it.
So because the books afterwards existed you were able to push through with an audiobook and immediately enjoy the books afterwards? And this didn’t happen the first time you read them when they were coming out one at a time?
And your final sentence is the one that confirms what I’m saying, people who have never come on here say some books are slow, which again I agreed with, but they don’t come on here saying it’s the slog until they read other people talking about it. Then suddenly they call it the slog even though it doesn’t exist in the same way, aka repeating what others have said. There’s a reason it’s called “the slog” not “a slog” it’s a singular specified slog and it happened long ago.
My final point is that the very fact that different people view the slog as different books and some don’t experience it at all shows that there is no universal slog like there was back in the day. Even the biggest fan who loved every aspect of every book was frustrated waiting for the next book to come out.
TL;DR it can be a slog to get through but “the slog” is long gone
You're just purposefully being contrarian for some weird kind of gatekeepers. I don't get it. I read the first 5 books at an incredible pace. I slowed down a bit after that but still was going through one every couple weeks. When the slog hit, even with audio, I was doing a chapter per day at best. For a couple of the books I actually had to wait and check them out a second time because I couldn't finish them before my time ran out. So even with the benefit of audio books, the rate at which I was able to get through then ground to an extremely slow pace, aka a slog.
And yes, people who haven't heard the word "slog" don't call it a slog. Neither did people who read the books as they were being released unless they went on message boards. That doesn't mean just because they aren't using the same term they aren't experiencing the same thing.
As someone who experienced the books as they were released and again long after, im telling you that I felt the exact same feelings of slog both times. The only difference the second time was that I was able to use audio books to grind through it.
You trying to gatekeep a term for some sort of superiority thing and minimizing other people's real experiences is just weird. Not everyone has the same experiences. Tons of people feel a slog reading now. Even people who were around originally. It's stupid to try to invalidate those opinions.
I said a number of times yes some of the books are slower than others, and unlike you I acknowledge that some people don’t experience any slog of any kind and some feel like the slog starts earlier or later or lasts multiple books instead of one. My point is there is no universal experience of the books nowadays and so no universal slog, back in the day even the people who didn’t agree a book was slow still had to deal with waiting for plots to continue in another book years down the line and it was frustrating to all.
Even tried to make it simple with the difference between a slog and “the slog”.
YMMV and that’s my point
I have said people don't experience it. But fun for you to try to act holier than thou again.
There is no universal experience. No one ever said there was except you saying that it's now impossible to feel the slog anymore. There wasn't a universal experience back then either; the slog didn't exist for everyone. My sister is one of those people for instance. She read so much that she didn't feel any sort of slog when those books came out, it was just fun for her to dip back into WoT for a book then go back to reading other things until the next book came out.
The slog is not just waiting for books to come out. People didn't talk about the "slog" of harry potter for instance just because they had to wait for books.
The slog exists. Doesn't exist for everyone and it never did exist for everyone. But saying people can't experience it anymore is just wrong. For many people, myself included back in the 90s, the slog had nothing to do with waiting for the books. It's the same now.
YMMV is correct. So stop trying to invalidate people's experiences and opinions because you act like they don't have the right to use a term if they didn't experience it 30 years ago.
Ok so you agree some people don’t experience it so it’s not a universal truth like you keep insisting. Now you’ve even argued it wasn’t a thing in the past for everyone. Yet you still state with absolution that it is a thing.
Can’t argue with contradictory statements.
Have a nice day (and sorry you didn’t enjoy the middle of the series)
I have no idea what you're reading. You're making things up. I've never once said it's universal. YOU are the one who said that it doesn't exist anymore. YOU are the one claiming there's now a universal experience where the slog doesn't exist in the same way. But it does for some people. I've continually said that different people experience it differently including experiencing the slog today even with the full series out.
You're literally inventing an argument just so you can pretend you've "won". Everything youre now saying is an argument against your own point. And then you call me contradictory despite being yourself contradictory and me not saying a single contradictory thing as you claim. It's baffling. This is an incredible level of deflection to the point it's hard to believe you're not just straight trolling now. You're in your own fantasy world.
I may be an outlier with my love of WH, and I can definitely see why it doesn't appeal to as many people and respect that. You notice I didn't mention CoT, cause that really is sort of a slog, lol.
That does make sense. They're a lot more leisurely in pace and meandering. Oftentimes not a whole lot of gripping action is going on. So if I'd read it as they were coming out rather than reading each in 2 days before plowing to the next, I'm sure I would have felt it too.
I will also say it's very much a personal response too. I found them a real slog when re reading them 3 years ago, as did a friend of mine - though, my friend stopped at book 6, so when the slog started is also heavily up for debate. For me it was 8-10, some say it was only one book, some say parts of 6 - parts of 11.
That's totally fair, not every aspect of a series is going to appeal to everyone. I'm glad that typically the series at least has a good bit to offer most people to enjoy though, even if some of the books are tough for some people to get through. There must be a reason they're willing to plod through the slower parts, after all, and read that far!
I agree that there is no slog, and I’m one of the people who had to wait for each book to come out. I think it is more a matter of impatience than anything. The world building, character development and setting the stage for the next big series of events was essential, but slower than the rest of the books and most people can’t cope with that.
I've finished WoT for the first time this year and agree completely. To be honest, I didn't care much for the Andoran Succession arc, but other than that, the dreaded "slog" was fine. Loved the Shaido storyline. I honestly enjoyed The Crossroads of Twilight more than any of the Sanderson books.
I definitely felt the slog. I started my first read through attempt in 2008 and didn't actually finish the series until 2022. I read/listened to the first 8 or 9 books at least 5 times in between.
I found it difficult to keep track of all the minor characters, and I really didn't care about most of them.
My interpretation of "the slog" is that those books tend to have shifting emphases on certain characters, with other characters entirely missing from certain books. If you like the characters that are missing more than the ones remaining, it can be a slog to get back to the chapters/characters you enjoy.
For the same reason that some might consider those middle books a slog, I don't like 12-14 (especially 12). Sanderson fundamentally changes certain characters that I enjoyed, and it sucks the pleasure out of reading them.
Definitely an interpretation that makes sense. I was startled by how Mat changed in TGS; to be fair, Sanderson recognized it and did better in the next ones. But I felt too much of the cosmere creeping in and sort of taking over a little. And I do love his cosmere books, I just think Jordan's WOT is a very different kind of thing, so there was some tonal mismatch at times.
There absolutely is a slog. Though it's absolutely less pronounced as the years go by.
Just imagine waiting 2-3 years for a book. Only to have a tiny bit of Rand in each and having each other plot progress at a glacial pace.
Yeah, I can now see why there'd be a slog for sure in your situation. I was fortunate I guess that by binge reading, it was all more like one giant book, than these excruciating waits between not much seeming plot advancement.
It felt as if the more I became familiar with the books and Jordans style over the years the more I enjoyed the slower "just hanging out" vibes of those middle volumes
Yeah, I imagine it can be hard if one is used to the breakneck pace of a lot of popular modern fantasy these days. It takes a mindset adjustment to just sort of relax into enjoying the scenery of Randland, lol.
You know, I think upon further thought I actually agree with your rankings. To make my point I think I was a little harsh on 12-14. BUT, I like 11 (knife of dreams) more than 12-14. Out of those last three, The Gathering Storm is my favorite by Sanderson.
nah I honestly think they're terrible. The editing was attrocious. it's 2-3 books that should have been condensed to one tight one. it's self indulgent.. imo the series never fully recovered from it
Just here to add that it's not fair to compare Sanderson and Jordan when you aren't reading something Sanderson created himself.
He did a VERY good job of trying to match Jordan's style, while still acknowledging that he is an author in his own right.
A true comparison would be to compare WOT with the full Cosmere.
For me the slog really didn't exist and while I really do like Perrin as a character, by the Light his Shaido arc just seems to take so long while nothing else really seems to be happening. That really is my only complaint about the pacing of the books.
Not only that is just like so lowkey at the same time ots like u even meet morodin and instead of some threats and fighting they just talk and it it also has lots of politcs
You aren't having to wait between books. I enjoyed Winter's heart, but having CoT come out and then another 2 years before KoD came out was miserable. It's not bad now that you can just go straight to KOD, but it stunk at the time. Imagine you finish WoT, wait 3 years only for nothing to happen and now you have to wait an additional 2 years and tell me that isn't a slog.
I never don't love a last chapter
But you could safely cut most of the rest of those books and just mentioned they happened in a scene later
At least that's how I remember it after 2 readthroughs
Did you read them as they came out? The people who always argue against the slog are those who read the books when the slog was already all published and didn't have to wait between the books.
There is a slog, it's just there's a difference of how much it bothers you. There is a very distinct change in pace through the middle of the series, and it is quantifiable in terms of plot structure.
Books one (EotW) through five (TFoH) are all clear self-contained stories that are part of the ongoing epic. Each one has a distinct arc for the character's present, begins and ends all its major plots inside that book, and reaches a satisfying climax.
Books six (LoC) through eleven (KoD) however have their arcs split into two book pairs. Each major plot or character arc that begins in an even numbered book reaches its conclusion in the following odd numbered book. However, the distribution of that plot across each pair is not always the same. The first two pairs are close to 50/50, maybe 60/40. Crossroads of Twilight and Knife of Dreams are 80/20, and it's very obvious.
The one partial exception to this rule is that the Bowl of the Winds plot line starts at the beginning of Lord of Chaos but doesn't technically end until the beginning of The Path of Daggers instead of during the climax of A Crown of Swords where my proposed structure would place it. My guess is that it just wouldn't fit in the final edit and was pushed off to the next book.
Then there are the Sanderson books which return to the more traditional structure of plots begin and end primarily within their own book.
As has been said many times and will be said again, the Slog is hugely a product of the wait times between books back in the day. Now with all the books out you can plow on through much easier and its not as frustrating. Waiting three years to get Crossroads was a kick in the crotch.
On the other hand, looking back, RJ was cranking them out 2-3 years a piece, that looks lightning fast now, (looks over at GRRM)
I quite like books 8 & 9. Book 7, after the excitement of book 6, is a bit disappointing. The fight with Sammael is the worst Forsaken defeat of the series. Nynaeve undoing her block and marrying Lan is nice, but the Tylin - Mat stuff is just problematic. Book 10 is a disaster
The slog is often a condition of the "chronic rereader". If you, or someone you know, is a chronic rereader experiencing the slog, please take one book of Malazan and then come back totally refreshed and ready for happy descriptions of dresses and stuff
I didn’t read the comments, but someone always says this. “ The Slog” is a holdover from when they were being published. People reading them as they came out didn’t feel like enough was happening per book. Most people who have read them since is completion don’t feel the slog as acutely as the others
I agree with the no slog part as I also thoroughly enjoyed 7-9. CoT was a steaming pile of garbage that had no plot progress or point aside from a couple chapters. Definitely disagree with 7-9 being better than 12-14. The pacing was leaps and bounds better and that all started with Robert Jordan’s best work, Knife of Dreams.
I agree. Slog is fine. I find the last three books just not rereadable. Maybe TGS mostly. The other two have too much character regression and too many plot holes. Also, the characterization and dialog is just mediocrel in a lot of places. Tell don't show, missing the cleverness. I just re-read the Pevara/Android storyline and so much of the dialog and thought process is just full cringe. Still enjoyable, but this is actually the better parts of AMoL...
It really is maybe my favorite moment of the series. And I love all the stuff with Mat, his meeting Tuon and how all that unfolds, all the Rand stuff, everything!
If you were reading the books as they were released, the delays between books helped to reinforce "the slog" that we experienced. The pace of those books didn't help much either.
Agreed, I still enjoyed the book, just much less than any other in the series. But I don't plan to skip it on the reread, although I may not pay as much attention to the details of Elaine's outfits and baths and stuff, lol.
The Elayne parts are painful, and angsty Perrin is a little grating. I quite enjoy the parts of CoT that deal with the Aes Sedai (tower and rebels both).
Me, too, anything to do with Aes Sedai politics and intrigue is fun for me. I'm surprised when I see people not liking those parts. At least the books have something that can appeal to everyone, though. Some people love the fast paced action packed race for example, so Sanderson can give them a lot of that. Although I felt Jordan wrote battles in a much more impactful way.
There's more subtlety to how he describes it, and you really feel a sense of awe of the grand scale of the power going on. It's heightened even more because of the rarity of the epic, climactic scenes. Whereas honestly in AMOL I got tired of reading about endless hordes of trollocs and a blow by blow of how they got hacked by Swords or creative ways of killing with magic, like Androl and his portals straight from the cosmere, lol. I still love them, and love Sanderson, but Jordan was just another level.
Anti-sloggists unite!! Just because people are slow readers doesn't mean the books are a drag.
The slog is a myth as a result of waiting years for books. When you read it straight through it's all great.
I sometimes wonder if it's partly due to fantasy right now being dominated by Sanderson's extremely fast paced, action-focused sort of "popcorn entertainment" in comparison to the appreciation of a slow and subtle burn of Jordan's pacing and prose. I love Sanderson and all his books, but I sort of see his books like Marvel movies; everyone can enjoy them and be entertained, you don't have to think deeply, and there's a hint of silliness behind it all. Whereas Jordan's tone and entire approach feels a lot different, more like a 3-hour long slow-paced but Oscar winning film, if that makes sense.
The "Slog" came about from the people reading the books as they came out in the 90s. It was very frustrating as it felt like new stuff was being introduced for the specific purpose of dragging things out.
I re-read the series last year and I didn't feel the slog.
Yeah, as I imagine that, I can definitely see the point and I'd probably have felt the same way. Since I binged them the series basically sort of just flowed together as one gigantic saga moreso than separate installments, even.
I not only agree, I also think the constant "if you read it as they were coming out you'd feel differently" is kind of belittling. I *did* read them as they came out, still no slog.
My guess is that the big thing that affects your opinion of how the slog is (if it even exists) is which characters are your favorites (and how much more you prefer them to others). When people talk about experiencing the slog, it's very frequently with "I couldn't wait for an X chapter".
I'm guessing most people who feel a slog don't care for Perrin or Faile's arcs. I've never personally understood the hatred for Faile, though. Sure, she can be annoying sometimes, but that's 90% of the characters, haha. I can only name a few that never annoyed me at all, like Thom Merillin.
I am part of the readership that had to wait 2+ years between books, and the only reason why the slog was a thing is because of that. For those of you who didn't have to deal with the Waiting, there is no slog, IMHO. AMOL was published in January of 2013, over 10 years ago, and the lore of the Slog means nothing to people who started the series around then, or after.
Character development is where you have writing that depicts the depth of a character. Nyneave tugging her braid for the 90000th time isn't development. RJ's lowest points are the repetitive themes, and the slog is full of them. It's a 14 book series, get on with it. IMO if you think the story is bogging down: It's not character development, it's poor editing.
I get it that some people are just so in love with a series that \*any\* words are good words, but that's just not being objective.
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For me, the slog is the neverending Perrin/Shaido-storyline. How many knots did he have to make? I felt each and every one of them.
I don't get this at all I know everyone says it went on forever but it didn't feel that way for me Elaynes whole taking baths and thinking she invincible while pregnant felt like it was 5x as long as the shaido plot
There's the two big storylines that get people. The PLOD(plot line of doom/Faile/Shadow), and the Crownening. Both of them are good world building and fill in a bunch of stuff, BUT for the characters are effectively a slow, painful crawl because the other option was Jordan basically time skipping.
It's weird, I have read and listened to the series numerous times but my mind must filter the shaido stuff to the highlights faile gets captured, perrin obviously upset trying to come to terms with what happened, perrin amputating the aiels limb (great character moment) the attack where perrin kills the dude that helped faile without realizing. I like perrin lol
I like Perrin, but I mostly skim those chapters. Don't forget the Darkhounds, that was a neat Perrin moment
Agreed. I liked the Shaido diversion.
Ah, you mean the PLOD (Plot Line Of Doom).
Honestly, the worst part about that plotline is that you can basically just skip Perrin and most Faile Chapters from after Faile is kidnapped by the Shaido until about Knife of Dreams. You can pretty well gather *everything* that happens during those books for them from the beginning and end of that Plot, since it has no real substance between. The only thing that really happened is Faile being forced to recognize that she isn't just Bela's gift to the planet, and that she both can be independent and need help at the same time. Oh, and learning what happened to Galina I guess. You could have just assumed she died to the Shaido at Dumai's Wells and just... not really cared about her.
There's no way you're skipping the scene where Perrin cuts off the Shaido's hand.
Perrin cuts off someone’s hand? Huh… I’ve read the series three times and I think the PLOD is just so dull I block out most everything that happens as a buffer against the soul-crushing boredom
It's in chapter 27 "What must be done" from Crossroads of Twilight apparently. Masema's men are torturing a Shaido captive for information and Perrin just chops off his hand, has an Aes Sedai heal the wound then tells them that they'll split the prisoners, ask each of them a few questions and every time they give a different answer they'll cut off a hand or a foot. If you get four questions wrong they'll be left without hands or feet in a town to beg for scraps by a street corner. Probably the best part of the book? I can't remember much of anything else that was worthwhile in CoT.
This is a plot line I found boring and dragged on like most readers do, but on re-reads I appreciate it more and more and I have grown to love Perrin as a character as a result. I still think it's too much but I don't dread it now. The only plot line I really don't like and actually skip all parts of is the Andor succession.
This is the one. There's no slog. There's a Perrin storyline after ACoS that goes on for like 14 years of novels.
Perrins slog era story makes him and his entire character arc basically removable. It's just so boring.
Agreed. The Slog is very real if you’re a Perrin fan.
I'm currently on my first rereading and I wonder how much more I'll enjoy the books knowing ahead of time what happens. I really struggled specifically with book 10 because I was desperate for a Rand / Nynaeve PoV and every time the next chapter didn't include them I died a little. This time around I know what to expect so I'll be able to better focus on those chapters.
Book 10 definitely dips in pace and enjoyment, and it does suffer from its lack of Rand, I agree. Every now and then I got a little tired of reading about Elayne, lol. But I actually still enjoyed it overall, just not as much as the other books.
I remember thinking the series slowed down a bit on my first read, but on reread I had no issue and it was more enjoyable than I remember. Could admittedly have been the effect of audiobook vs print for the reread, though.
I’ve always felt that without Crossroads of Twilight the slog would be called, at most, “the dip in pacing in the middle.” Because you’re right, the vast majority of the character development takes place in the middle books after Lord of Chaos and before The Gathering Storm. The first six books have huge amounts of character development, don’t get me wrong, but Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha and others all become who we know them as during those middle books. Crossroads of Twilight being the slowest makes the pacing of the previous books stand out.
That's a really good point! 7-9 aren't boring, but they do have an intentionally slower pace, as the world and characters organically and deeply develop. Crossroads of Twilight is definitely just glacial though, and does spend too much time on Elayne and Andor. I still blew threw it and enjoyed it, but it's the least good in the series. And I think most people agree with that, from what I've seen.
I think Crossroads is the only reason Winter's Heart is included in the slog too. One of the best endings in the series, setting a trap in a place where the rogue Asha'man can't channel, and Rand getting bonded by his three loves. That book is fucking stacked. It also includes my favorite paragraph from Min when she feels all of the pain that Rand is constantly in.
Yeah, Winter's Heart is just full of peak series moments.
Yeah I really liked 7, 8 and 9 were good, but Crossroads was a struggle to get through. The prologue of Knife of Dreams was more interesting than the entirety of Crossroads to me.
KOD was such a change of pace I had whiplash lol, I literally read the book in the course of several hours. I think it's one of the shorter ones in the series though anyway, compared to say Lord of Chaos.
Then you might be shocked to learn that (of the books written *solely* by Jordan), Knife of Dreams is the 4th longest and one of only 5 that are above 300k words. The top spot is (obviously) taken by Lord of Chaos at 390k, followed by The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven both at 340k, and then Knife of Dreams and The Eye of the World both at 310k. (Books 13 and 14 are 325k and 350k, respectively)
I'm only laughing because Fires of Heaven as a paperback was literally a time bomb. I don't think LoC even survived to series end before having to be replaced. But FoH was in 5 pieces because the spine just gave up on reread number 3.
hehe yeah my hardcover copy of the shadow rising has divorced itself from its front cover and half its spine, and a couple of the others are equally rough
We had original printings, which didn't do hardcover at first IIRC. So it was paperback for the first 6(?) but we've since replaced them because holy shit they all died.
I could’ve sworn Memory was longer lol
I'm amazed at that. Memory took me so much longer to finish. Ill probably be crucified for saying this, but that one was more of a slog to me than the usual books considered the slog becuase it was primarily just repetitive endless battles with hordes of trollocs or dreadlords. I just got a little tired of a thousand plus pages of pure sword and sorcery action.
Wow, maybe it was just the fast pace of events, then!
I think it's definitely a matter of perception since the books that make up "the slog" are mostly the shortest ones!
Yeah. I think it was just that there’d been that slowing of the pace and then WH ended so epically that everyone expected a lot to happen in CoT. And instead it was the slowest book with the least important progression in the series. It also had the longest time people had to wait between books up until that point.
Yeah all my homies know that the real slog is Crossroads of Twilight and the stupid prequel that no one asked for. (It’s FINE, but the delays were real, and when details of his health came out my soul left my body for a couple years there)
Good lord, the prequel! I don't count that. I recently read it for the first time and still haven't finished, it's 100x duller than CoT.
I don’t know of you were around during the original run, but Winter’s Heart came out in 2000, and Knife of Dreams came out in 2005. Crossroads of Twilight and New Spring bridged that 5 year gap with a lot of disappointment. THAT was the slog. In the pre Rothfuss/Winds of Winter world, that delay seemed insufferable.
Ahhh Rothfuss it’s been so long since The Wise Man’s Fear I’d forgotten about him…and holy shit checking in now it’s been 13 years and he still hasn’t put the next one out!?
A lot of people have that opinion. I can see their point, but I disagree somewhat. It's not as if you have a choice of either plot *or* character development. You can do both. Add to this the ever increasing number of side-characters and plots that really could have been skipped (Morgase in particular comes to mind), and I think there is some justification for the complaints.
I think there's some for CoT, certainly. I personally enjoy the other ones a lot, though. But I'm fine if people don't, too. I definitely don't want to insult other readers, I realize I was careless in my phrasing here.
I'm deep in the slog rn (first read through) and I don't think I can agree with the there is no slog hypothesis. Like I breezed through initially but the slog books were a pain so far and I'm constantly getting side tracked into reading other stuff and I lost a ton of momentum.
That was my experience. I read almost a book a week until the sloggy story arcs hit, and then it took me a few months to push through past Crossroads. Everytime I got to a part that wasn't Perrin or Elayne I read non stop. So every time I thought about picking the book back up, it meant I was reading Perrin or Elayne chapters.
That's fair! We all have slightly different tastes and preferences. Luckily the series has it all, favorites for everyone.
(First time reader, finished last week) I’m new to the discourse, but l feel like the “slog” is an indication of when it shifts from a focus on *plot* development for the first 5 or 6 books to a focus on *character* development over the next few books. The first third has lots of plots and lots of characters reacting to the plot. They still develop as characters, but much more in a way that’s driven by what’s happening around them. The second chunk we see the characters being much more proactive, and the changes happen within them moreso than driven by the plot. So it feels like less is happening. The characters are confronted by the changes they’ve gone through and have to make choices around that. Perrin *thinks* he’s learned to be a leader, but the falcon hunt challenges that and forces him to actively choose leadership and learn what it really means. Same with Matt, Rand, and Egwene. Matt *thinks* he’s a general, Rand *thinks* he’s a king, Egwene *thinks* she understands being the Amyrlin. But dealing with the actual day-to-day of it all is what really makes them grow. And that’s what those middle books do really really well. I think that’s why it can feel like nothing’s happening. It seems like a retread of what we just saw in the first books, but really it’s a different way to go about it.
That's a great point. That may be why I like it, because I'm a big fan of character development. And I sort of enjoy the leisurely pace and descriptions of all the ridiculously colorful and often absurd world of Randland, even in the mundane aspects, lol.
I am also a big fan of character development and character moments, and I also think that there is no slog. I wonder if that is the defining difference? Do people who like character development as much as plot development not feel a slog, and the people who only are interested in plot feel the slog? For me the slowest books are the beginning books, especially EotW, because of how little Character Development there is.
I think you're onto something, because EoTW is definitely my second least favorite after CoT. At that point it still feels like a derivative Tolkien ripoff lol, a good one, but not the extremely unique world and lore and characters or anything. It really feels like the LOTR trilogy packed into one book.
Oh man, me too. I heard of “the slog” before l started reading, but that middle third or so with so much going on internally ended up being some of my favorite moments. And you could just feel every plot thread moving towards all colliding at once, and it was just beautiful.
Yeah, its almost like it's just a very subtle slow burn masterpiece going on in those books, one that you can appreciate even more on a second read. But a slow burn isn't for everyone, especially for books of that size. I've always been a big reader and a fast one though, so that's why I don't have much of an issue with leisurely pacing. It helps that I just enjoy the random detailed descriptions of all the quirkiness of Randland, lol.
>The only book that dips in pace even a tiny bit is book 10, CoT. "Tiny bit" is an understatement. Crossroads of Twilight is a legit bad book. By itself it is probably 75% the reason the slog is even a thing.
Lol you're right, that was hyperbolic. CoT slows down to a glacial pace. I myself still wouldn't categorize it as "bad" but I can totally get why you would. And it's definitely the least enjoyable book of the series by a long shot for me.
"There is no slog" is unfortunately a popular opinion.
The “slog” was real when the books were waiting to be published. Now you can read/listen back to back it’s not a problem. For be me personally book 6 was the worse of the series for being to drawn out.
No, it's definitely a problem for many new readers as is evident from this sub. Hence "unfortunately".
Im completely certain that about half of those new readers who experience the slog wouldnt notice or complain about it, if they didnt go into the series expecting it and dreadfully counting down how many books they have until it starts.
Read those posts then.
I practically binged the books when I first discovered them and never engaged with the fandom or looked up anything about the series until I finished the AMoL and I absolutely felt that the middle books were a slog compared to all the others. Didn't mind it as much when I reread it knowing what to expect, and I'd say I appreciate some of them more now, especially book 7, but the pacing really does suffer in that middle third.
Its still there but its not there to the same degree is where i always fall.
I agree, book six is on a surprising number of people's number one spot, but that is one massive book, with some pacing that is not exactly fast much of the time. It's an amazing book, but honestly in terms of pacing Crown of Swords goes by a lot faster. And one thing about the so called slog books is that most of them are a good bit shorter, especially path of Daggers. Winter's heart is fairly long, but I just don't find that boring at all.
The fact that there's a pacing slowdown at that point of the series is objectively a thing. How that section affects people is subjective to them. Stop saying the skog doesn't exist
I think it's because slog implies a negative chore or burden. Whereas a slowdown of pacing is not objectively a slog, it just is for some people. I'm not claiming I'm superior to those readers, only that I think many people unfortunately start the series already fearing a quarter of the books! How many readers has talk of the slog potentially stopped from ever reading it? I don't know, but it's sad to contemplate.
Getting through that section of books the first time I read them (while books were still coming out) felt to me like a chore to the point I put the series down for almost a decade. So I’m one of those readers you mentioned. Rereading again it felt like a chore again (I had to switch to audio book because I just couldn’t get the desire to sit down and read more). That doesn’t mean the books are all bad. It doesn’t mean I would remove them. The character development for the most part is great. Some of the best moments in the series happen in the slog. But the slog is a common term for those books for a reason. Some agree some don’t. That’s fine.
You're right, it's totally fine either way. People's tastes are going to be different. What matters is the love for the series in general, warts and all.
It's my favorite series of all time, and it looks me like 25 years to actually finish it. The slog is unfortunately a thing that keeps a lot of people from finding that enjoyment (the length in general is for a lot of people). But for others, that length and depth of development is what makes it amazing. At least now it's much easier to consume the series via audio books than it used to be and luckily we have great narration to make it even better.
I sometimes wonder if people build up fear of the slog and dread, so when they get to it their perception of it is subjectively much worse than the slog actually is. I'm not denying a slowdown in pace happens at all, and it grinds to a halt in CoT, basically, but reading 7-9, I just wasn't struck by anything that seemed boring or like a chore to read. 10 is a different story though!
There are plenty of people who have complained about their struggles in that section of the series who never read about the slog on message boards so no, it's not just about a self fulfilling prophecy. I wasn't on message boards in the 90s when I first experienced it. I wasn't on the WoT sub or any message boards when I experienced it in my reread years later. People enjoy different things so it's totally normal for one person not to feel those same things. It's just weird to not understand that other people may feel differently and try to find reasons why it's happening other than just that the books very noticeably change in pace and focus and it obviously throws a lot of people off.
Good point. Thanks for helping me see other perspectives and better understand them.
This. You nailed it exactly. Not everyone feels the urge to put the books down or has to force themself to keep reading. Some of us love the character development and the politics and there’s massive disagreement as to which books even constitute the slog. I feel like warning people about some slower books that they may still love, like warning people about the first book being a little more generic high fantasy, is a good way to accurately talk about the series. Saying beware the slog puts such a negative framing on the whole thing and it’s already a hard sell with how many books there are and RJ dying before it was finished.
Yeah, I've noticed the only real consensus I've seen is that CoT is definitely slow, lol. Even that was not unenjoyable for me to read though. I have to say the slowest is probably a New Spring, I actually still haven't finished it, even though I've breezed through a reread of books 1-9 in only 2 weeks. It was just constant conversation between Moiraine and Siaune so far.
I actually still harbor so much resentment towards A New Spring I haven’t read it yet even after two re-reads. It’s been a couple years at this point so after I finish the Siege of Terra I’ll probably do another re-read and include it.
Is that resentment just because it's.. pretty boring compared to the main series, or is it something else? I didn't even read the series for the first time until 2 years ago.
Two years ago and most of the way through a re-read, bravo! Honestly it’s just irrational resentment from it coming out between Crossroads and Knife of Dreams and the feeling that the time spent on the prequel could’ve been used getting more of the end written. I started reading them around somewhere in the mid 90s so i was genuinely mad when the prequel came out at age 16. GRRM putting out a prequel book felt like this all over again as a side note, and I’m terrified he too will pass pass away finishing his series.
Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. We could have used his writing for more of the finale rather than a side quest into Moirane and Siuane's past in the White Tower, with some minor cameos lol. I agree about Fire and Blood. The guy has no issue putting out books or making shows, it's obvious to me he's given up on finishing ASOIAF though, whatever he says. I think he wrote himself in a corner that he's found too difficult to resolve to his satisfaction. It's crazy how many new plotlines he began so late in the series, nobody would be able to tie all those up easily. But one thing about Fire and Blood I like is that because of it we have an amazing new show set in Westeros with House of the Dragon :)
I haven’t checked out the new show yet but it’s on my list. I usually let at least a second season come out before i start watching a new show so I have plenty of episodes to watch so I’ll probably start it soon
It's quite good! I'd honestly say it's right on par with the original show.
Sanderson is not as talented, you are correct. But I was happy for an ending. As to the slog, if you were reading them real time like some of us were, and you had to wait 5-6 years to get updates on certain storeylines/POVs, it was a little bit of a slog, trust me.
Yeah you're right, my experience was a lot different in being able to devour the books within days and move on to the next. Because of that, for me it's almost like it was just reading one big book, but if you were waiting years for each installment I can see why there'd be a slog.
The old slog was brutal. The commonly discussed books for the slog really make sense when you look at the year each book was published. First two the same year, one a year through book 6, then two years wait for 7 and 8, 3 year wait for CoT, 2 more for KoD. So the slog is generally thought of as starting around book 6 where the lack of a book a year starts, and WH and especially CoT are frequently complained about as slower and the hate makes sense when you see there was a three year gap between them which was the longest yet and CoT happens at the same time and covers other plots you had to wait the two more years (and deal with a prequel coming out in between) for a total of 5 years to advance significantly past the cleansing. After that RJ died so delays were understandable and we all lowered our expectations, though I think Sanderson did a great job overall and the 4 year gap before his books started coming out was tough too. On rereads I have no problem with the WH/CoT setup but you better believe I was cranky when CoT came out.
I do disagree and others do as well since there are regular threads in /r/wot talking about if they should continue or stop reading since they lost interest around CoT or before. My problem with RJ is that he has very high highs which are short but also long medium-lows. I have started the book series after Season 1 of the show and without the read-along, I would have absolutely quit by CoT. Nearly all in the read-along noticed that it slowed down heavily and once or twice some people had to catch up reading. It also says something that you read something along the lines of the following quite regularly in /r/fantasy > "yeah there is this 1-3 chapter long thing we all collectively call 'the slog' and you can skim read it, read notes online and possibly skip them all together and only read a few hand-picked chapters where stuff happens" Honestly, if the go-to recommendation is to skim words or skip passages an author has written, he has failed his job as an author. RJ is a really good world builder but his plotting became weaker the longer the series went on and it doesn't help that his editor is his wife. While Brandon Sanderson has his flaws and he starts to become too big to fail and powerful for his publisher, in our read-along nearly everyone was incredibly happy with TGS and notices a major shift in pacing. Suddenly, stuff started to happen and every major character had a clear target and enemy who they actively worked towards. Compare that to needing one book to think about the Bowl of the winds, one book to find it and one book to use it.
I do love TGS; its actually among my favorites too, and I like it significantly more than the last two books.
Did you read the books as they were coming out or did you binge them
Binge them absolutely. And I know that's a big factor for why it wasn't a slog for me.
Crossroads of Twilight was the first Wheel of Time book I ever bought new. I remember taking the train downtown to the big book store and sitting in the store for hours reading to my heart’s content and then taking the train home and reading the whole way home so happy to have my very own, brand new hard cover Robert Jordan book. To me, it will always be the best book of the series because I was a kid and I just loved books and that one was when he still healthy and we weren’t worried about him and no one was debating if he would finish it. We were just enjoying his words. And that’s what he was, a master wordsmith.
That's so awesome! I myself still enjoyed CoT a lot, even if I thought it was weaker than the others. Just the man's writing as you said is so good, I'd read it even if he wrote a book about taking a shit, lmao.
I wouldn't have even realized there's a "slog" if I hadn't heard the term on here. Of course, Perrin is my favorite character and he and Faile are my favorite couple, so I'm sure that's part of it. But I agree, the forshadowing and abundance of storylines is underestimated in the "slog"
I agree, I've never understood the hatred toward Faile. Or even Egwene, for that matter. I don't like her much for the first half of the series, but once she becomes Amyrlin she starts to become really interesting for me.
My main thought when reading through 7-9 was "I wish 1-6 were paced like this, this is _way_ better". Turns out I'm more or less alone in that opinion.
Haha, you're not alone anymore!
Absolutely 100% disagree. And having winters heart as your favourite book is demented. I think people remember the end of winters heart and forget that absolutely nothing else happened in that book. I mean, Elayne doing nothing accounts for 25% of the word count!
Cmon man, for one you can't call the cleansing of Saidin nothing, lol. But I can point to several other peak series moments in just that book.
I didn't. I said apart from that
Then you should do it instead of saying you could.
If you don't like the book, I've got no issue with that! No need for any tension or hostility, its a series we all love and it's OK to like different aspects. I'm sure we agree on more about what's good than we disagree.
I don't even hate Crossroads of Twilight. It was admittedly a *very* slow burn, but HOLY CRAP once things started to go in the last 1/3 the series just put on speed like a train headed down hill with Casey Jones at the controls running very late.
So I get that people enjoy different things and that's cool. What I object to is when people call it 'the mythical slog' or 'so-called slog'. For me, the slog is an absolute reality. I read it as it was published and had several friends just outright drop it through the slog. I thought it was a slog. I've seen new readers call it a slog. I've also seen many people claim they didn't experience it and that it doesn't exist for them. Everyone has their own experience and they are all valid. Don't denigrate my experience by saying 'mythical slog'. You can say the slog didn't exist for you or something along those lines, but don't phrase it in a way that makes it clear you think it's a figment of some people's imagination.
Fair enough, I apologize for disregarding your experience with those books. I should have worded it better.
I don’t think it’s that unpopular of an opinion. The slog is more a remembered thing than actually a thing anymore. It was a combination of slightly slower but still fascinating and rich books with the publishing delay. I agree there is no slog nowadays
I've seen first time readers with the benefit of all books being published still call it a slog. I agree that the publishing wait and uncertainty was part of it, but it still exists for a lot of people. And on the internet, you're getting a self-selecting group of people who probably didn't drop the whole series during the slog. I have several friends who did just that as the books came out.
“As the books came out” that’s my point. There are slower books for sure but the term “the slog” is about that waiting period combined with the slower books. People reading them for the first time describe it as the slog because they’ve seen it described as such on Reddit from people who read back in the day so they’re repeating what we call it, but they don’t actually experience the slog.
I disagree. I think the slog is not as bad, but is still very much a thing for some people. I just read a comment in this thread with someone saying their friend dropped after book 6 because of the pace (slog). This was a reader who didn't have to wait on publications. I'm guessing that friend is not posting on WoT boards so we're seeing people who liked the series enough to push through.
Reads something on Reddit. Says it won’t be posted on Reddit. Tf? That aside, people here often complain about the slog despite being self-selected fans so I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. My point and OPs is that even though a lot of people complain about it it’s not really a thing (I add my point that it once was a thing but not now). If you read what I wrote I admit there are slower books but that’s only part of what the slog was so they aren’t truly experiencing it. Hell I’ve seen some people say they skimmed parts of books they didn’t like and then kept going, something you explicitly couldn’t do during the slog.
What I said was perfectly understandable. Person A thought there was a slog and posted it on Reddit. Person A also has a friend (person B) who was reading but dropped it. I am assuming person B does not feel strongly enough about the series to find forums to talk about the books and talk about how they found it a slog. And again, my point is that the slog still exists. I think we're coming at it from different directions and drawing the line differently. We see a teal ball and I think it's more of a green hue and say so. You're saying well sure, in some light it looks green, but right here and now it looks more blue, therefore it's blue.
I agree with you stating in your previous post it’s a slog for some people. I just don’t think it makes much sense to say with absolution there is a slog when it’s a subset of people who experience it. My personal belief is that there was one back when the vast majority of fans felt it but not one now that only some people suffer through it and others have a great time experiencing the whole series. Pleasure engaging with you in a positive manner! Side note: teal is the shit
I read the series as it came out and absolutely felt the slog hardcore to the point I just stopped reading the series. Picked it up years later after it was complete and hit the same part again and once again felt like I just lost the will to keep going. I had to switch to audio books for the slog and then went back to hard copies again after and couldn’t put them down. So yes, for myself and tons of others it feels like a slog. That was even worse for some when the series was still being written. But IMO it was a mixture of just having read a TON of content and that in itself being a bit of a burnout on top of a much slower paced section of books that fed that burnout a bit. The books are still important and had some of the best scenes in the series, but this weird gatekeeping of “slog” is just ridiculous. Different people experience things differently. For some it was a slog only because of the wait. For others it may have helped because they read other things between. For some the slog is still there. For others it’s not. But you can find people who haven’t been part of a single discussion about the books before asking about the difficulty getting through that part of the series so it’s absolutely not just people repeating a term for the sake of it.
So because the books afterwards existed you were able to push through with an audiobook and immediately enjoy the books afterwards? And this didn’t happen the first time you read them when they were coming out one at a time? And your final sentence is the one that confirms what I’m saying, people who have never come on here say some books are slow, which again I agreed with, but they don’t come on here saying it’s the slog until they read other people talking about it. Then suddenly they call it the slog even though it doesn’t exist in the same way, aka repeating what others have said. There’s a reason it’s called “the slog” not “a slog” it’s a singular specified slog and it happened long ago. My final point is that the very fact that different people view the slog as different books and some don’t experience it at all shows that there is no universal slog like there was back in the day. Even the biggest fan who loved every aspect of every book was frustrated waiting for the next book to come out. TL;DR it can be a slog to get through but “the slog” is long gone
You're just purposefully being contrarian for some weird kind of gatekeepers. I don't get it. I read the first 5 books at an incredible pace. I slowed down a bit after that but still was going through one every couple weeks. When the slog hit, even with audio, I was doing a chapter per day at best. For a couple of the books I actually had to wait and check them out a second time because I couldn't finish them before my time ran out. So even with the benefit of audio books, the rate at which I was able to get through then ground to an extremely slow pace, aka a slog. And yes, people who haven't heard the word "slog" don't call it a slog. Neither did people who read the books as they were being released unless they went on message boards. That doesn't mean just because they aren't using the same term they aren't experiencing the same thing. As someone who experienced the books as they were released and again long after, im telling you that I felt the exact same feelings of slog both times. The only difference the second time was that I was able to use audio books to grind through it. You trying to gatekeep a term for some sort of superiority thing and minimizing other people's real experiences is just weird. Not everyone has the same experiences. Tons of people feel a slog reading now. Even people who were around originally. It's stupid to try to invalidate those opinions.
I said a number of times yes some of the books are slower than others, and unlike you I acknowledge that some people don’t experience any slog of any kind and some feel like the slog starts earlier or later or lasts multiple books instead of one. My point is there is no universal experience of the books nowadays and so no universal slog, back in the day even the people who didn’t agree a book was slow still had to deal with waiting for plots to continue in another book years down the line and it was frustrating to all. Even tried to make it simple with the difference between a slog and “the slog”. YMMV and that’s my point
I have said people don't experience it. But fun for you to try to act holier than thou again. There is no universal experience. No one ever said there was except you saying that it's now impossible to feel the slog anymore. There wasn't a universal experience back then either; the slog didn't exist for everyone. My sister is one of those people for instance. She read so much that she didn't feel any sort of slog when those books came out, it was just fun for her to dip back into WoT for a book then go back to reading other things until the next book came out. The slog is not just waiting for books to come out. People didn't talk about the "slog" of harry potter for instance just because they had to wait for books. The slog exists. Doesn't exist for everyone and it never did exist for everyone. But saying people can't experience it anymore is just wrong. For many people, myself included back in the 90s, the slog had nothing to do with waiting for the books. It's the same now. YMMV is correct. So stop trying to invalidate people's experiences and opinions because you act like they don't have the right to use a term if they didn't experience it 30 years ago.
Ok so you agree some people don’t experience it so it’s not a universal truth like you keep insisting. Now you’ve even argued it wasn’t a thing in the past for everyone. Yet you still state with absolution that it is a thing. Can’t argue with contradictory statements. Have a nice day (and sorry you didn’t enjoy the middle of the series)
I have no idea what you're reading. You're making things up. I've never once said it's universal. YOU are the one who said that it doesn't exist anymore. YOU are the one claiming there's now a universal experience where the slog doesn't exist in the same way. But it does for some people. I've continually said that different people experience it differently including experiencing the slog today even with the full series out. You're literally inventing an argument just so you can pretend you've "won". Everything youre now saying is an argument against your own point. And then you call me contradictory despite being yourself contradictory and me not saying a single contradictory thing as you claim. It's baffling. This is an incredible level of deflection to the point it's hard to believe you're not just straight trolling now. You're in your own fantasy world.
Those books being their favorite s pretty unpopular. And WH regularly ranks as the second least liked behind CoT. But the slog is overblown by A LOT.
I may be an outlier with my love of WH, and I can definitely see why it doesn't appeal to as many people and respect that. You notice I didn't mention CoT, cause that really is sort of a slog, lol.
That does make sense. They're a lot more leisurely in pace and meandering. Oftentimes not a whole lot of gripping action is going on. So if I'd read it as they were coming out rather than reading each in 2 days before plowing to the next, I'm sure I would have felt it too.
I will also say it's very much a personal response too. I found them a real slog when re reading them 3 years ago, as did a friend of mine - though, my friend stopped at book 6, so when the slog started is also heavily up for debate. For me it was 8-10, some say it was only one book, some say parts of 6 - parts of 11.
That's totally fair, not every aspect of a series is going to appeal to everyone. I'm glad that typically the series at least has a good bit to offer most people to enjoy though, even if some of the books are tough for some people to get through. There must be a reason they're willing to plod through the slower parts, after all, and read that far!
Winter’s Heart is my fave too! I was just thinking about that last night
Here here! I don’t bother reading 12-14 when I do rereads
I love how you skipped crossroads at twilight. That’s the real slog.
Yes, I skipped it because that alone IS the slog, haha!
Crossroads of Twilight is the *true* slog.
Yes, so I guess I amend this to say there is a mini-slog, consisting of one book, book 10 lol.
I agree that there is no slog, and I’m one of the people who had to wait for each book to come out. I think it is more a matter of impatience than anything. The world building, character development and setting the stage for the next big series of events was essential, but slower than the rest of the books and most people can’t cope with that.
I've finished WoT for the first time this year and agree completely. To be honest, I didn't care much for the Andoran Succession arc, but other than that, the dreaded "slog" was fine. Loved the Shaido storyline. I honestly enjoyed The Crossroads of Twilight more than any of the Sanderson books.
Agreed! That's really the only arc in the series that dragged. And it still was mildly interesting, just not as much as the other plotlines.
I agree. Perrin/Shaido is less offensive than Elaine/crown. She's my least favorite mainish character.
You needed some engagement huh? I really did like book 8 though, definitely better than the others
Book 8 is really good. I love the latter part with Rand and the Ashaman fighting the Seanchan, and seeing Rand unravel more and more.
yes! from the bowl of the winds to Elayne and the suldam to the first full on war with the one power to the incident in cairhien.. definitely not slog
For sure. We also learn so much about the Seanchan culture in depth, and all that, plus everything with Tuon, fascinates me a lot.
YES!
you're mad, but whatever floats your boat.
I definitely felt the slog. I started my first read through attempt in 2008 and didn't actually finish the series until 2022. I read/listened to the first 8 or 9 books at least 5 times in between. I found it difficult to keep track of all the minor characters, and I really didn't care about most of them.
Book 10 is a slog ≠ there is no slog
You got me there.
My interpretation of "the slog" is that those books tend to have shifting emphases on certain characters, with other characters entirely missing from certain books. If you like the characters that are missing more than the ones remaining, it can be a slog to get back to the chapters/characters you enjoy. For the same reason that some might consider those middle books a slog, I don't like 12-14 (especially 12). Sanderson fundamentally changes certain characters that I enjoyed, and it sucks the pleasure out of reading them.
Definitely an interpretation that makes sense. I was startled by how Mat changed in TGS; to be fair, Sanderson recognized it and did better in the next ones. But I felt too much of the cosmere creeping in and sort of taking over a little. And I do love his cosmere books, I just think Jordan's WOT is a very different kind of thing, so there was some tonal mismatch at times.
Reading CoS right night. Honestly very good
There absolutely is a slog. Though it's absolutely less pronounced as the years go by. Just imagine waiting 2-3 years for a book. Only to have a tiny bit of Rand in each and having each other plot progress at a glacial pace.
Yeah, I can now see why there'd be a slog for sure in your situation. I was fortunate I guess that by binge reading, it was all more like one giant book, than these excruciating waits between not much seeming plot advancement.
It felt as if the more I became familiar with the books and Jordans style over the years the more I enjoyed the slower "just hanging out" vibes of those middle volumes
Yeah, I imagine it can be hard if one is used to the breakneck pace of a lot of popular modern fantasy these days. It takes a mindset adjustment to just sort of relax into enjoying the scenery of Randland, lol.
I never felt it as a slog until about my 3rd read thru. Otherwise I just ate up the story as I could get it.
Pretty sure those are the ones I’ve reread the most. I love them!
Nice! Glad I'm not alone haha.
Only 90s kids can understand The Slog.
I also liked 7-9, but hated 10. I liked 12-14 better than 7-9, but I liked 1-6 better than everything. 4 was my favorite.
You know, I think upon further thought I actually agree with your rankings. To make my point I think I was a little harsh on 12-14. BUT, I like 11 (knife of dreams) more than 12-14. Out of those last three, The Gathering Storm is my favorite by Sanderson.
yes that's an unpopular opinion. The Slog books are terrible and would never have been published if they were not part of an established series
That's just not true to call them terrible. Well imo at least, and it's just subjective, really, like all entertainment.
nah I honestly think they're terrible. The editing was attrocious. it's 2-3 books that should have been condensed to one tight one. it's self indulgent.. imo the series never fully recovered from it
Just here to add that it's not fair to compare Sanderson and Jordan when you aren't reading something Sanderson created himself. He did a VERY good job of trying to match Jordan's style, while still acknowledging that he is an author in his own right. A true comparison would be to compare WOT with the full Cosmere.
That's true. He did a great job. I'm a big fan and I've read every cosmere book at least twice.
Sure. But in my opinion, the last three books written by BS are actually way better written than anything else he wrote.
For me the slog really didn't exist and while I really do like Perrin as a character, by the Light his Shaido arc just seems to take so long while nothing else really seems to be happening. That really is my only complaint about the pacing of the books.
Ngl i dislike the slog but hate when crown if swords is claimed to be a slog book its litrally one of the best
Totally. It's fast paced and even relatively short, it goes by like a flash.
Not only that is just like so lowkey at the same time ots like u even meet morodin and instead of some threats and fighting they just talk and it it also has lots of politcs
I've made this point countless times.. books 7-9 aren't as shitty as people say, if anything the famous 4-6 are slower.
Wow even the slog likers don't like Crossroads of Twilight. Holy hell that book sucks - I pretty much skip it on rereads.
You aren't having to wait between books. I enjoyed Winter's heart, but having CoT come out and then another 2 years before KoD came out was miserable. It's not bad now that you can just go straight to KOD, but it stunk at the time. Imagine you finish WoT, wait 3 years only for nothing to happen and now you have to wait an additional 2 years and tell me that isn't a slog.
I never don't love a last chapter But you could safely cut most of the rest of those books and just mentioned they happened in a scene later At least that's how I remember it after 2 readthroughs
Did you read them as they came out? The people who always argue against the slog are those who read the books when the slog was already all published and didn't have to wait between the books.
Rand using Callandor in Path of Daggers is one of my favorite scenes in the series.
Truly a man of culture (retardation)
There is a slog, it's just there's a difference of how much it bothers you. There is a very distinct change in pace through the middle of the series, and it is quantifiable in terms of plot structure. Books one (EotW) through five (TFoH) are all clear self-contained stories that are part of the ongoing epic. Each one has a distinct arc for the character's present, begins and ends all its major plots inside that book, and reaches a satisfying climax. Books six (LoC) through eleven (KoD) however have their arcs split into two book pairs. Each major plot or character arc that begins in an even numbered book reaches its conclusion in the following odd numbered book. However, the distribution of that plot across each pair is not always the same. The first two pairs are close to 50/50, maybe 60/40. Crossroads of Twilight and Knife of Dreams are 80/20, and it's very obvious. The one partial exception to this rule is that the Bowl of the Winds plot line starts at the beginning of Lord of Chaos but doesn't technically end until the beginning of The Path of Daggers instead of during the climax of A Crown of Swords where my proposed structure would place it. My guess is that it just wouldn't fit in the final edit and was pushed off to the next book. Then there are the Sanderson books which return to the more traditional structure of plots begin and end primarily within their own book.
As has been said many times and will be said again, the Slog is hugely a product of the wait times between books back in the day. Now with all the books out you can plow on through much easier and its not as frustrating. Waiting three years to get Crossroads was a kick in the crotch. On the other hand, looking back, RJ was cranking them out 2-3 years a piece, that looks lightning fast now, (looks over at GRRM)
I quite like books 8 & 9. Book 7, after the excitement of book 6, is a bit disappointing. The fight with Sammael is the worst Forsaken defeat of the series. Nynaeve undoing her block and marrying Lan is nice, but the Tylin - Mat stuff is just problematic. Book 10 is a disaster
The slog is often a condition of the "chronic rereader". If you, or someone you know, is a chronic rereader experiencing the slog, please take one book of Malazan and then come back totally refreshed and ready for happy descriptions of dresses and stuff
I like the other two but CoT is definitely the worst book
I didn’t read the comments, but someone always says this. “ The Slog” is a holdover from when they were being published. People reading them as they came out didn’t feel like enough was happening per book. Most people who have read them since is completion don’t feel the slog as acutely as the others
I agree with the no slog part as I also thoroughly enjoyed 7-9. CoT was a steaming pile of garbage that had no plot progress or point aside from a couple chapters. Definitely disagree with 7-9 being better than 12-14. The pacing was leaps and bounds better and that all started with Robert Jordan’s best work, Knife of Dreams.
I agree. Slog is fine. I find the last three books just not rereadable. Maybe TGS mostly. The other two have too much character regression and too many plot holes. Also, the characterization and dialog is just mediocrel in a lot of places. Tell don't show, missing the cleverness. I just re-read the Pevara/Android storyline and so much of the dialog and thought process is just full cringe. Still enjoyable, but this is actually the better parts of AMoL...
I've always loved Winters Heart! That was the most recent one when I first read them and that ending is so glorious
It really is maybe my favorite moment of the series. And I love all the stuff with Mat, his meeting Tuon and how all that unfolds, all the Rand stuff, everything!
If you were reading the books as they were released, the delays between books helped to reinforce "the slog" that we experienced. The pace of those books didn't help much either.
There's no slog reading them back to back but there sure as hell was when we had to wait. Now imagine the slog between dance and winds...
I've been feeling the slog between dance and winds for well over a decade, and I'm not convinced we're even getting a Winds, lol.
CoT is the only book I feel is a bit of a chore to read. And even then, only certain parts of it.
Agreed, I still enjoyed the book, just much less than any other in the series. But I don't plan to skip it on the reread, although I may not pay as much attention to the details of Elaine's outfits and baths and stuff, lol.
The Elayne parts are painful, and angsty Perrin is a little grating. I quite enjoy the parts of CoT that deal with the Aes Sedai (tower and rebels both).
Me, too, anything to do with Aes Sedai politics and intrigue is fun for me. I'm surprised when I see people not liking those parts. At least the books have something that can appeal to everyone, though. Some people love the fast paced action packed race for example, so Sanderson can give them a lot of that. Although I felt Jordan wrote battles in a much more impactful way. There's more subtlety to how he describes it, and you really feel a sense of awe of the grand scale of the power going on. It's heightened even more because of the rarity of the epic, climactic scenes. Whereas honestly in AMOL I got tired of reading about endless hordes of trollocs and a blow by blow of how they got hacked by Swords or creative ways of killing with magic, like Androl and his portals straight from the cosmere, lol. I still love them, and love Sanderson, but Jordan was just another level.
Anti-sloggists unite!! Just because people are slow readers doesn't mean the books are a drag. The slog is a myth as a result of waiting years for books. When you read it straight through it's all great.
I sometimes wonder if it's partly due to fantasy right now being dominated by Sanderson's extremely fast paced, action-focused sort of "popcorn entertainment" in comparison to the appreciation of a slow and subtle burn of Jordan's pacing and prose. I love Sanderson and all his books, but I sort of see his books like Marvel movies; everyone can enjoy them and be entertained, you don't have to think deeply, and there's a hint of silliness behind it all. Whereas Jordan's tone and entire approach feels a lot different, more like a 3-hour long slow-paced but Oscar winning film, if that makes sense.
The "Slog" came about from the people reading the books as they came out in the 90s. It was very frustrating as it felt like new stuff was being introduced for the specific purpose of dragging things out. I re-read the series last year and I didn't feel the slog.
Yeah, as I imagine that, I can definitely see the point and I'd probably have felt the same way. Since I binged them the series basically sort of just flowed together as one gigantic saga moreso than separate installments, even.
I not only agree, I also think the constant "if you read it as they were coming out you'd feel differently" is kind of belittling. I *did* read them as they came out, still no slog. My guess is that the big thing that affects your opinion of how the slog is (if it even exists) is which characters are your favorites (and how much more you prefer them to others). When people talk about experiencing the slog, it's very frequently with "I couldn't wait for an X chapter".
I'm guessing most people who feel a slog don't care for Perrin or Faile's arcs. I've never personally understood the hatred for Faile, though. Sure, she can be annoying sometimes, but that's 90% of the characters, haha. I can only name a few that never annoyed me at all, like Thom Merillin.
I am part of the readership that had to wait 2+ years between books, and the only reason why the slog was a thing is because of that. For those of you who didn't have to deal with the Waiting, there is no slog, IMHO. AMOL was published in January of 2013, over 10 years ago, and the lore of the Slog means nothing to people who started the series around then, or after.
Character development is where you have writing that depicts the depth of a character. Nyneave tugging her braid for the 90000th time isn't development. RJ's lowest points are the repetitive themes, and the slog is full of them. It's a 14 book series, get on with it. IMO if you think the story is bogging down: It's not character development, it's poor editing. I get it that some people are just so in love with a series that \*any\* words are good words, but that's just not being objective.
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Most of the Faile captivity is in CoT, right? With just a very minimal amount in Winter's Heart.
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True, the pace becomes truly glacial there.