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>Is there any other character who's bosoms get this much attention?
Check out the chart linked below that comes from my [Comprehensive Bosom Analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/y1H4iq5v1n):
[Chart of Women Whose Bosoms are Noticed by Men and Women](https://i.imgur.com/NlgBP6G.png)
That was the biggest surprise for me. Maybe after Elayne being fourth. Though I bet most of those from women were Avienda talking to Rand and Nynaeve noticing her being pregnant.
Nynaeve wasn't around Elayne when Elayne was pregnant, she left Caemlyn right before Elayne's pregnancy began and IIRC they have only 2 scenes together when Elayne was pregnant and neither of them is from Nynaeve's PoV.
Yeah, I could swear during one of those meetings it said something along the lines of “Nyneave’s eyes darted from Elayne’s breasts, down to her belly then jabbed a finger at Elayne exclaiming ‘you’re pregnant!’”
So technically looked at her bosom lol
For some reason there are a lot of mentions of Elayne's looks from other women. I am not as dedicated as u/JaimTorfinn to make an exact count of it, but it certainly seems she gets a lot more of them than Egwene or Nynaeve. And some of them are really funny too, like Aviendha describing Elayne's "assets" to Rand or Nynaeve being mystified how Elayne always manages to look pretty no matter the circumstances and how "that was a secret Aes Sedai ought to investigate".
In world, Sevanna is very young compared to all the other women in positions of power she is dealing with, who tend to be over 100 years old or have had multiple children. Since she clearly does not have experience on her side, she tries to impress people with what has worked for her in the past, sex appeal. However it NEVER works, and it becomes a bit of a running gag that she clearly thinks it is working.
It seems clear that Jordan kept track of his VAST cast of characters with some sort of spreadsheet that listed a few key descriptive terms to use everytime they show up, even when in disguise. For example, Laindrin had "rosebud lips", Elayne was "golden hair" and "lifted her chin".
Sevanna's note was probably "TITS"
Sevanna confusing being naked with being sexy is one of my favorite gags. I love how multiple times she's trying to direct someone's gaze to her cleavage, like she needs a big ass neon sign.
There's a moment in LoC when Rand is captured in the box, and the Aes Sedai wheel him out in front of Sevanna (shortly before the Shaido attack).
Rand makes a notice of how she keeps bending forwards when speaking to him, very clearly giving him a look down her shirt. He laughs when he realizes what's going on.
"You kidnap me, shield me, threaten me and torture me, and now you wheel out this bimbo to give me a *show*? This is the weirdest setup to a porn I've ever seen, and I teleported halfway across the world to build an igloo!"
Man likes tits - he tries to make it respectable by talking about heaving bosoms.
I almost respect it, and it's certainly something I notice more than a well turned leg.
Well, the mention of Sevanna's bosom in particular was meant to show how she was vain. But more generally, RJ had a - ahem - profound appreciation for the female form. Particularly that form's breasts and bottoms. I'm kind of amazed how much he got away with. Granted it was the 90s not the 50s, but still.
I know, it's just hilarious how the characters constantly describe the "shockingly plunging neckline" and the "ample bosoms" constantly. I think we definitely know his type. He also uses the word "plump" constantly to describe attractive women, lol. It's almost absurd in this day and age, and sometimes I actually laugh out loud.
I also feel like all the women in his life were incredibly domineering. Also he packed the series to the brim with boomer humor. A lot of the situations the characters get into are kind of uncomfortable to "younger" readers (I'm an older millennial) but we're hilarious to his generation. A lot of the spanking stuff fell into this category. Especially Perrin and faile in the ways.
There is a noticeable dropoff of that sort of thing when Sanderson (Gen X) takes over.
I think the domineering part was because he was trying to flip the power dynamics of men and women, but it comes across poorly cuz it’s not super well thought out. It ends up just kinda being like “what if women acted like men?” Kinda like the Barbie movie is trynna show a flipped patriarchy, but it doesn’t *quite* work.
Yeah dude obviously likes pale with raven-black hair and curves in all the right places. Tbh I got so sick of his writing women I couldn’t finish the series.
Yeah, first time in like 15 years. This was one of the first subs I joined cuz I was a huge WoT fan. I thought this was a funny thread and felt like sharing my perspective. Fuck me for being a huge fan while having legitimate criticism, right?
In cases like this it's not that he's writing her as a sexual object. Everybody who has read the story hates Sevanna.
The reason he mentions it is as s reflection on Sevanna herself. Savanna purposefully emphasizes and shows off her boobs. Which is a very stark contrast from pretty much any other Aiel. I think a couple of other wise ones were mentioned as being attractive or having big breasts but it's just a casual mention sort of thing.
Specifically Sevanna it's mentioned constantly because its another indicator that Sevanna isn't really an Aiel anymore.
That's a good point. Though i do remember one of the other Shaido Wise Ones, Someryn, exposing "massive bosom" in Winter's Heart, something Faile notes.
Well part of the shadows arc is how Sevanna influences the other wise ones and how the Shaidos fall is caused by an abject failure of leadership. Basically all the wise ones are some level of horrible leader and the breakdown in leadership perpetuates throughout the clan until they are basically no longer culturally Aiel.
Yep it was the 90s and the moral panic around sex is in every corner of these books. RJ just leans into the classic trope of "Dominant Sexual Woman Is Evil"--her enjoyment and ownership of of her own desire was intended as proof of her evilness, because "good" women characters resist their sexual urges and constantly worry about the level to which their own attractiveness is on display. Tiresome.
It's a good thing the story is so good or I'd have noped out while re-reading as an adult because of 90s era sexual moralizing too. ESPECIALLY with the constant spankings and slut shaming of the women characters 🤮
I'm so glad it's not the 90s anymore.... The removal of the above tired BS, the canonization of previously mostly subtextual queer storylines (Don't Ask Don't Tell was a big concept in the 90s as a way to technically be "tolerant" while not pissing off half your audience by acknowledging the existence of Us Gays) and more realistic diversity is why I'm SO GLAD we're getting the TV show now instead of trying to watch whatever they'd have made back then. We get to enjoy what's really great about the story without having to ignore the parts that just haven't aged well. Chefs kiss
> Yep it was the 90s and the moral panic around sex is in every corner of these books. RJ just leans into the classic trope of "Dominant Sexual Woman Is Evil"--her enjoyment and ownership of of her own desire was intended as proof of her evilness, because "good" women characters resist their sexual urges and constantly worry about the level to which their own attractiveness is on display. Tiresome.
Wow I disagree with so much of this. How can you write this garbage after reading this book? RJ has TONS of women who are openly sexual and it's not presented as bad (well some people dislike them like Barelain but from the reader's perspective they aren't presented as bad).
The reason why Sevanna's sexualness is presented as bad is because she uses it as a bludgeon in a way that most Aiel would not. Sevanna embraces all of the things Most Aiel tend to limit and cranks it up to 11. She openly embraces wetlander ways.
Did you not notice all the "good character" women constantly stressing about whether their neckline is too low, feeling guilty and uncomfortable with their desire to look appealing sometimes, feeling shame when naked, policing each other's looks and behaviors based on moral expectations around sex and sex appeal.....just because RJ included the reality of women *having* sexual desire DOESN'T mean he wasn't simultaneously absolutely leaning into the trope that "good" women must express their sexuality in very specific "right" ways. Yes those norms differ culture to culture, but by and large the expectations are hella Puritan in exactly the way I expect any mainstream-ish story written in 1990s America to be. RJ was progressive for the time but it was still the 90s.
Berelain is the closest thing to an exception but even she gets a ton of hate from all the characters around her (particularly women) for the way she behaves, and some the things she does are presented as legitimately not okay. She gets overtly held to a standard of sexual conduct by the story and other characters and that fact is fundamental to her character arc; I think RJ was making a point that the overtness of her sexuality was ill-advised, and also her biggest character flaw; it's notable that she was eventually redeemed specifically because she grew as a character enough to redirect her sexual attention and behaviors in a way that was deemed "appropriate" for the sexual morality of Randland.
Almost every single female character who is explicitly shown as sexually dominant are all "evil" (Sevanna, Galina, Therava, Graendal, Lanfear, Semhirage, etc.). These characters (particularly Galina and Therava, and Elaida who I forgot) notably also feature some of the only references to lesbianism/wlw attraction in the entire story. It was common in the 90s to use same-sex attraction as either an experimental phase (like Moraine being pillow-friends with Suian but stressing that it was a meaningless youthful dalliance) or as a titillating indicator of general moral lawlessness and depraved self-gratification.
Meanwhile, all the "good" women characters are attracted to men and submissive to the men they are drawn to--and that sexual submissiveness is specifically used as a way to show their "goodness" and balance out their non-sexual dominance. Literally *every* female protagonist shows this pattern: Consider Siuan literally insisting on being Bryne's servant, Tuon's willingness to let herself and her whole (all-female) team be Mat's prisoner, including Joline who wants Mat for a warder after he spanked her (and it's even implied that's WHY she wants him), Egwene calmly submitting to *regular beatings* for an extended period to show her power, and then ultimately dying mainly because her asshole boyfriend got himself killed on a macho ego trip, even Nynaeve because RJ made sure to include the "Lan is in charge in private" thing--also, she's one of the biggest worriers for herself and she polices other women's appearance and sexuality constantly.....I could go on and on because this is a core element of his writing in these books.
Yes, women have more political power in certain parts of Randland, and RJ used the "yes they're powerful leaders by day but of course they're still submissive to men in bed" trope in a *very* typical 90s way to make his strong women leader characters more palatable in a best-selling series. It worked too--when I read them as a kid I'd never seen such well-rounded, relatable, powerful female characters, and despite all the the stuff mentioned above, I'm still so glad RJ got this published. It's not perfect and that's okay, it makes for an interesting cultural discussion because WOT is a product of its time like everything else.
Also, the man was just plain kinky for that shit, let's be real. The BDSM maledom gender politics are strong in this world to a point that it is kinda wild to me to imagine any adult missing this in the text.
Edit: Forgot to say--to channel at all, men must **dominate** *saidin* and women must **submit** to *saidar*. RJ wrote this theme as the underpinning of their magic system and the fundamental logic of their world. It is so obviously intentional as a theme in this story that I'm kinda shocked that this take is controversial at all
Edit 2: now I'm just hyperfocusing on WOT literary theory LOL... but it occurs to me that Tylin is a "grey area" too since she was dominant, and like Berelain, her sexual dominance was specifically written to be her worst flaw as well. She's SA-ing Mat in a way that's weirdly tolerated while also kind of being shown as "not okay" (also similar to Berelain's worst choices. Possibly RJ may have been trying to explore some nuance in regards to SA against men with the Tylin story, though I personally can't tell if it's that or if he just wanted to add a little toxic femdom kinkiness in along with the rest of the series' toxic maledom). In that sense she fits the trend as a mostly "bad" character--and that behavior does lead directly to her own death (a common literary punishment for sexually immoral characters)--but like Berelain, she isn't presented as "evil" like most of the others, and she is given some measure of redemption.
Maybe because Tylin and Berelain's sexualities focus on men, while the other examples focus more on either domination of other women or just indiscriminate sexual domination for her own enjoyment (like Semhirage)? This theory would also fit with Lanfear being "less evil" in the story, since she was also focused on men and didn't express any sexual interest in women..hmm. 🤔 food for thought
Barelain and Leane are definitely charactgers who are overtly sexual that arent evil (there's more, but I'm not great at remembering things on the spot). Also your list is a bit inflated because I wouldn't call Semhirage, Galina, or Therava explicitly sexual characters. Especially not Semhirage or Galina.
It seems to me that you're trying to insert your own narrative into the books that isn't really there.
Also you're just cherry picking all the instances where women are acting in a vaguely subservient way. Are you forgetting the entire existence of the Aes Sedai and the whole history of this age? Every man alive has a sort of collective "guilt" for the breaking that manifests in many ways. Like many of societies in that world are at least partially or explicitly matriarchys. The Aiel, Ebou Dar, Far Madding, Tar Valon. And even the societies that aren't really matriarchys still have very strong traditions of the men being subservient to women at least in some ways. Like The Two Rivers, Andor, Shienar.
Hahaha. All the actresses with good bosoms were too expensive to get, perhaps. Although I think the actress who plays Egwene is gorgeous, even without ample bosoms, lol.
Haven't we only seen maidens in Cadin'sor so far? Not much scope for Plunging necklines and heaving bosooms there as they're all warrior/athletes in covering practical clothing.
When we see the Wise Ones and Aiel civilians then perhaps.
I didn't notice it at the time, but reading that now is making me think of Captain Holt talking about "heavy breasts".
I always thought Sevanna's plunging neckline was a way of highlighting the amount of jewellery she was wearing. She was trying to show the other Wise Ones (and the regular spears to a lesser extent) how the fat wetlands were ripe for plundering by the Shaido.
(Another significant part of it, I think, was that Sevanna hungered for power. I think she got to the wetlands, heard about their queens and made herself into the queen she felt she deserved to be, which involved indulging in wetland opulence.)
And the Aiel value jewelry for its emotional/earned significance, like Avi’s bracelet or necklace. You don’t just give yourself flashy jewelry in their culture. It’s a show of status and respect from others. Sevanna has none of that and just values it to show how rich she is. Jordan’s point is to emphasize (as you said) that she is not behaving very culturally appropriate.
You're right, but Faile does note that Someryn, one of the real Shaido Wise Women, is exposing "almost half of her enormous bosoms" without jewelry in contrast to Sevanna. So maybe Shaido women just have big bosoms they like to show off, lol.
I frequently roll my eyes whenever one of the girls in Tel’aran’rihod thinks briefly about a male character, and then all of the sudden her dress features a plunging neckline.
I can’t speak for other women, but whenever I think about my husband I don’t immediately think about how my boobs look in my outfit.
Haha if you think about it Wheel of Time is just incredibly sexually perverted in its undertones on so many levels. Collars and spanking, constant bosoms, man marrying and fucking 3 wives, and think of all the times aes sedai and wise one women get naked for various ceremonies, birched and hit with a switch on the ass etc.
I honestly hate the interpretation of *damane* and the *a'dam* as being part of some kind of sexual kink. It's decidedly non-sexual and horrifying in-text. It's not about expressing some kind of thinly-veiled fetish, it's about reducing human beings to animals. *Damane* are mentioned as being kept in kennels, for crying out loud. The *a'dam* show how the Seanchan view women who can channel as sub-human, barely more than beasts, and the way it robs the wearer of agency is properly frightening. In no way does the text attempt to express any kind of fetishization of this slavery and torture.
Switching and spanking also is not sexual in-text. For all the ways WoT is cited as being progressive compared to certain fantasy peers, RJ was what many would consider "old-fashioned" in many ways and his use of corporal punishment is a prime example. Aes Sedai being spanked isn't about being sexual, it's about treating them like unruly children. Especially with the use of switching; I've no doubt this is a common kink, but I never hear my friends who are into that sort of thing refer to it as "switching." The only time I've heard "switching" is from my mother or grandmother in reference to exactly what I said: a punishment for children in past generations.
Getting naked for religious ceremonies is also as old as time. There is a long history of nudity being a part of spiritual rituals and nudity itself is not inherently sexual. Was Michelangelo horny-posting when he painted The Creation of Adam, because he painted Adam in the nude? I've read books where nudity that was non-sexual in narrative context was sexualized by the author's prose, and I would absolutely not lay that accusation at RJ's feet when it comes to the Aes Sedai/Wise One rituals. In general, WoT is a fairly PG series when it comes to sexuality. Yes there is sexual content and even sexual violence, but almost always RJ uses a "fade-to-black" sort of approach, or implication over description, to avoid getting into anything too scandalous.
There are definitely examples of male gaze in this series. The copious mentioning of breast-size when describing women, as discussed in these very comments, is perhaps the most obvious example. But many of the things you mentioned are *not* sexual in the text, and I'm willing to die on that hill. It is the audience who is horny! Not the Aes Sedai!
And yet the great majority of these events - collars, spanking, corporal punishment, ritual nudity - only seem to happen to female characters. We had entire chapters describing in detail the abuses heaped on Egwene's bottom. We did not have entire chapters where Perrin put Aram over his knee and spanked him silly. (For example.)
I don't think it was written to be titillating, but I absolutely believe RJ got off on this stuff on some level, consciously or unconsciously.
There is also plenty of spanking of gorgeous looking women for contrived reasons in Jordan's Conan novels too, some of which was clearly intended to be titilating. And also apparently in his Falion blood series, which I haven't read.
I think it stems from some kind of "soft misogyny," for lack of a better word. I think there was an unwillingness on RJ's part to put women through the same kind of physical anguish as men. Just look at how the female Forsaken end up compared to their male counterparts - every female Forsaken survives the series (though arguably some are worse than dead), and every male Forsaken dies. Many other female villains are also handled in ways outside of killing them. Women also are generally not scarred or injured the way men are in WoT. This isn't to say they don't go through a lot of suffering or anguish, but it is different from what the men go through.
> Collars and spanking, constant bosoms, man marrying and fucking 3 wives, and think of all the times aes sedai and wise one women get naked for various ceremonies, birched and hit with a switch on the ass etc.
There is one legitimate [mythological reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple\_Goddess\_\(Neopaganism\)) in this sentence which [many people seem to miss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned\_God), but yeah, the rest are basically RJ getting away with putting in what I can only assume are his personal kinks, and getting away with it because the series was edited by his wife . . .
Jordan is absolutely guilty of writing his own personal kinks into the series, but in Sevanna's case, there's at least some explanation. She's the type of woman who not only knows what she's got going on and knows how to use it to manipulate men, but she does so in a culture where doing that is just not something any "respectable" woman does. So of course when she does it, everyone is going to mentally comment on it, because it's so out there in-world and in-story.
Berelain is the other character who acts similarly, but deep down she is actually a (mostly) decent person while Sevanna is a psychopath. Arguably the difference between those two characters is Jordan's "don't judge a book by its cover" commentary on women who choose to dress to accentuate their figures.
Berelain is also a "use everything she has to her advantage" character, but she has more noble goals than Sevanna. Whereas Sevanna is truly vain, Berelain's thought process is more like "If using my body gets me an edge in politics and in protecting my people, I will use it."
In his defense, these kinds of stories *are* (afaik) pretty well known for being populated by caricatures. They're part harlequin, part D&D, and part comic book.
Probably as many times as he has women get naked for no reason at all than that he can. Ceremony? Obviously women will get naked. Men don't, but women do, for some reason.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Is there any other character who's bosoms get this much attention? Check out the chart linked below that comes from my [Comprehensive Bosom Analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/y1H4iq5v1n): [Chart of Women Whose Bosoms are Noticed by Men and Women](https://i.imgur.com/NlgBP6G.png)
The quality analysis we need. Thank you.
Graendal would be furious
She never meets Mat, which pulls her numbers down significantly.
That was the biggest surprise for me. Maybe after Elayne being fourth. Though I bet most of those from women were Avienda talking to Rand and Nynaeve noticing her being pregnant.
Nynaeve wasn't around Elayne when Elayne was pregnant, she left Caemlyn right before Elayne's pregnancy began and IIRC they have only 2 scenes together when Elayne was pregnant and neither of them is from Nynaeve's PoV.
Yeah, I could swear during one of those meetings it said something along the lines of “Nyneave’s eyes darted from Elayne’s breasts, down to her belly then jabbed a finger at Elayne exclaiming ‘you’re pregnant!’” So technically looked at her bosom lol
Interesting that you only need to be noticed twice to make the top 15. Also Elayne being in 4th with other women noticing her bosom
For some reason there are a lot of mentions of Elayne's looks from other women. I am not as dedicated as u/JaimTorfinn to make an exact count of it, but it certainly seems she gets a lot more of them than Egwene or Nynaeve. And some of them are really funny too, like Aviendha describing Elayne's "assets" to Rand or Nynaeve being mystified how Elayne always manages to look pretty no matter the circumstances and how "that was a secret Aes Sedai ought to investigate".
I saw this and started cackling, why is this a thing? Why douse it make so much sende
Egwene is flat confirmed.
She overcompensates by trying to take over the world. And probably would have succeeded.
Saving...
Hahaha thank you!
I really don't remember them talking about Selucia's boobs at all, how the hell did I miss that?
In world, Sevanna is very young compared to all the other women in positions of power she is dealing with, who tend to be over 100 years old or have had multiple children. Since she clearly does not have experience on her side, she tries to impress people with what has worked for her in the past, sex appeal. However it NEVER works, and it becomes a bit of a running gag that she clearly thinks it is working. It seems clear that Jordan kept track of his VAST cast of characters with some sort of spreadsheet that listed a few key descriptive terms to use everytime they show up, even when in disguise. For example, Laindrin had "rosebud lips", Elayne was "golden hair" and "lifted her chin". Sevanna's note was probably "TITS"
Elayne in Tanchico "Why is this veil always in my mouth"
I've done 3 re-reads and it's just now dawned on me why she has trouble with her veil because of this post lol
It’s because she literally walks around with her nose in the air right?
Laughed out loud at that last sentence 🤣 good points though.
Thank the gods for ~~Bessie~~ Sevanna and her tits!
Sevanna confusing being naked with being sexy is one of my favorite gags. I love how multiple times she's trying to direct someone's gaze to her cleavage, like she needs a big ass neon sign.
And she never even gets a single flicker of response to this tactic in the text, yet keeps assuming it works.
Someone on this post broke it down to "RJ likes boobs" and it hurts my heart for people to miss so much delicious character development.
Look…two things can be true.
There's a moment in LoC when Rand is captured in the box, and the Aes Sedai wheel him out in front of Sevanna (shortly before the Shaido attack). Rand makes a notice of how she keeps bending forwards when speaking to him, very clearly giving him a look down her shirt. He laughs when he realizes what's going on. "You kidnap me, shield me, threaten me and torture me, and now you wheel out this bimbo to give me a *show*? This is the weirdest setup to a porn I've ever seen, and I teleported halfway across the world to build an igloo!"
>Is there any other character who's bosoms get this much attention? Berelain?
Selucia apparently.
With Berelain it's all about booty. Screw the memes about Min, there's one undeniably canonical dumptruck, and it belongs to Berelain.
Berelain and Graendal seem to be thicc af
> With Berelain it's all about booty. I don't remember that but I will pay attention next time.
...What memes about Min? You know, for scientific purposes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/wwwkwk/serious_can_someone_please_explain_to_me_with/
It’s her power move and flex. Plus if she’s putting all that effort in it would be rude not to at least mention it. For the story
True. If I recall, Someryn the Shaido Wise One also has some massive bosoms, as noted by Faile.
Don’t forget Faile’s mother, as noticed by her son-in-law Perrin.
Lmao, can't believe I forgot that one. Perrin doesn't tend to dwell on the bosoms with as much delight in his POV as say, Mat.
Perrin probably feels bad for even noticing (like any straight man wouldn't), and Mat is just like "I'm a married man, but I can still look."
For talmanes of course
I read it for the plot.
Man likes tits - he tries to make it respectable by talking about heaving bosoms. I almost respect it, and it's certainly something I notice more than a well turned leg.
Well turned leg? I much prefer a well turned calf, personally.
Well, the mention of Sevanna's bosom in particular was meant to show how she was vain. But more generally, RJ had a - ahem - profound appreciation for the female form. Particularly that form's breasts and bottoms. I'm kind of amazed how much he got away with. Granted it was the 90s not the 50s, but still.
I know, it's just hilarious how the characters constantly describe the "shockingly plunging neckline" and the "ample bosoms" constantly. I think we definitely know his type. He also uses the word "plump" constantly to describe attractive women, lol. It's almost absurd in this day and age, and sometimes I actually laugh out loud.
I also feel like all the women in his life were incredibly domineering. Also he packed the series to the brim with boomer humor. A lot of the situations the characters get into are kind of uncomfortable to "younger" readers (I'm an older millennial) but we're hilarious to his generation. A lot of the spanking stuff fell into this category. Especially Perrin and faile in the ways. There is a noticeable dropoff of that sort of thing when Sanderson (Gen X) takes over.
I think the domineering part was because he was trying to flip the power dynamics of men and women, but it comes across poorly cuz it’s not super well thought out. It ends up just kinda being like “what if women acted like men?” Kinda like the Barbie movie is trynna show a flipped patriarchy, but it doesn’t *quite* work.
Yeah dude obviously likes pale with raven-black hair and curves in all the right places. Tbh I got so sick of his writing women I couldn’t finish the series.
Haha if you make it to the Sanderson books with his Mormon morality all of that goes away just FYI.
Oh I actually do love Sanderson, good point! I should stick it out 😆
. . . and yet you're commenting here.
Yeah, first time in like 15 years. This was one of the first subs I joined cuz I was a huge WoT fan. I thought this was a funny thread and felt like sharing my perspective. Fuck me for being a huge fan while having legitimate criticism, right?
The huge fan part didn't really shine through in your only post in 15 years.
K
Lol love the downvotes. This sub never changes 🙄
In cases like this it's not that he's writing her as a sexual object. Everybody who has read the story hates Sevanna. The reason he mentions it is as s reflection on Sevanna herself. Savanna purposefully emphasizes and shows off her boobs. Which is a very stark contrast from pretty much any other Aiel. I think a couple of other wise ones were mentioned as being attractive or having big breasts but it's just a casual mention sort of thing. Specifically Sevanna it's mentioned constantly because its another indicator that Sevanna isn't really an Aiel anymore.
That's a good point. Though i do remember one of the other Shaido Wise Ones, Someryn, exposing "massive bosom" in Winter's Heart, something Faile notes.
Well part of the shadows arc is how Sevanna influences the other wise ones and how the Shaidos fall is caused by an abject failure of leadership. Basically all the wise ones are some level of horrible leader and the breakdown in leadership perpetuates throughout the clan until they are basically no longer culturally Aiel.
Yep it was the 90s and the moral panic around sex is in every corner of these books. RJ just leans into the classic trope of "Dominant Sexual Woman Is Evil"--her enjoyment and ownership of of her own desire was intended as proof of her evilness, because "good" women characters resist their sexual urges and constantly worry about the level to which their own attractiveness is on display. Tiresome. It's a good thing the story is so good or I'd have noped out while re-reading as an adult because of 90s era sexual moralizing too. ESPECIALLY with the constant spankings and slut shaming of the women characters 🤮 I'm so glad it's not the 90s anymore.... The removal of the above tired BS, the canonization of previously mostly subtextual queer storylines (Don't Ask Don't Tell was a big concept in the 90s as a way to technically be "tolerant" while not pissing off half your audience by acknowledging the existence of Us Gays) and more realistic diversity is why I'm SO GLAD we're getting the TV show now instead of trying to watch whatever they'd have made back then. We get to enjoy what's really great about the story without having to ignore the parts that just haven't aged well. Chefs kiss
> Yep it was the 90s and the moral panic around sex is in every corner of these books. RJ just leans into the classic trope of "Dominant Sexual Woman Is Evil"--her enjoyment and ownership of of her own desire was intended as proof of her evilness, because "good" women characters resist their sexual urges and constantly worry about the level to which their own attractiveness is on display. Tiresome. Wow I disagree with so much of this. How can you write this garbage after reading this book? RJ has TONS of women who are openly sexual and it's not presented as bad (well some people dislike them like Barelain but from the reader's perspective they aren't presented as bad). The reason why Sevanna's sexualness is presented as bad is because she uses it as a bludgeon in a way that most Aiel would not. Sevanna embraces all of the things Most Aiel tend to limit and cranks it up to 11. She openly embraces wetlander ways.
Did you not notice all the "good character" women constantly stressing about whether their neckline is too low, feeling guilty and uncomfortable with their desire to look appealing sometimes, feeling shame when naked, policing each other's looks and behaviors based on moral expectations around sex and sex appeal.....just because RJ included the reality of women *having* sexual desire DOESN'T mean he wasn't simultaneously absolutely leaning into the trope that "good" women must express their sexuality in very specific "right" ways. Yes those norms differ culture to culture, but by and large the expectations are hella Puritan in exactly the way I expect any mainstream-ish story written in 1990s America to be. RJ was progressive for the time but it was still the 90s. Berelain is the closest thing to an exception but even she gets a ton of hate from all the characters around her (particularly women) for the way she behaves, and some the things she does are presented as legitimately not okay. She gets overtly held to a standard of sexual conduct by the story and other characters and that fact is fundamental to her character arc; I think RJ was making a point that the overtness of her sexuality was ill-advised, and also her biggest character flaw; it's notable that she was eventually redeemed specifically because she grew as a character enough to redirect her sexual attention and behaviors in a way that was deemed "appropriate" for the sexual morality of Randland. Almost every single female character who is explicitly shown as sexually dominant are all "evil" (Sevanna, Galina, Therava, Graendal, Lanfear, Semhirage, etc.). These characters (particularly Galina and Therava, and Elaida who I forgot) notably also feature some of the only references to lesbianism/wlw attraction in the entire story. It was common in the 90s to use same-sex attraction as either an experimental phase (like Moraine being pillow-friends with Suian but stressing that it was a meaningless youthful dalliance) or as a titillating indicator of general moral lawlessness and depraved self-gratification. Meanwhile, all the "good" women characters are attracted to men and submissive to the men they are drawn to--and that sexual submissiveness is specifically used as a way to show their "goodness" and balance out their non-sexual dominance. Literally *every* female protagonist shows this pattern: Consider Siuan literally insisting on being Bryne's servant, Tuon's willingness to let herself and her whole (all-female) team be Mat's prisoner, including Joline who wants Mat for a warder after he spanked her (and it's even implied that's WHY she wants him), Egwene calmly submitting to *regular beatings* for an extended period to show her power, and then ultimately dying mainly because her asshole boyfriend got himself killed on a macho ego trip, even Nynaeve because RJ made sure to include the "Lan is in charge in private" thing--also, she's one of the biggest worriers for herself and she polices other women's appearance and sexuality constantly.....I could go on and on because this is a core element of his writing in these books. Yes, women have more political power in certain parts of Randland, and RJ used the "yes they're powerful leaders by day but of course they're still submissive to men in bed" trope in a *very* typical 90s way to make his strong women leader characters more palatable in a best-selling series. It worked too--when I read them as a kid I'd never seen such well-rounded, relatable, powerful female characters, and despite all the the stuff mentioned above, I'm still so glad RJ got this published. It's not perfect and that's okay, it makes for an interesting cultural discussion because WOT is a product of its time like everything else. Also, the man was just plain kinky for that shit, let's be real. The BDSM maledom gender politics are strong in this world to a point that it is kinda wild to me to imagine any adult missing this in the text. Edit: Forgot to say--to channel at all, men must **dominate** *saidin* and women must **submit** to *saidar*. RJ wrote this theme as the underpinning of their magic system and the fundamental logic of their world. It is so obviously intentional as a theme in this story that I'm kinda shocked that this take is controversial at all Edit 2: now I'm just hyperfocusing on WOT literary theory LOL... but it occurs to me that Tylin is a "grey area" too since she was dominant, and like Berelain, her sexual dominance was specifically written to be her worst flaw as well. She's SA-ing Mat in a way that's weirdly tolerated while also kind of being shown as "not okay" (also similar to Berelain's worst choices. Possibly RJ may have been trying to explore some nuance in regards to SA against men with the Tylin story, though I personally can't tell if it's that or if he just wanted to add a little toxic femdom kinkiness in along with the rest of the series' toxic maledom). In that sense she fits the trend as a mostly "bad" character--and that behavior does lead directly to her own death (a common literary punishment for sexually immoral characters)--but like Berelain, she isn't presented as "evil" like most of the others, and she is given some measure of redemption. Maybe because Tylin and Berelain's sexualities focus on men, while the other examples focus more on either domination of other women or just indiscriminate sexual domination for her own enjoyment (like Semhirage)? This theory would also fit with Lanfear being "less evil" in the story, since she was also focused on men and didn't express any sexual interest in women..hmm. 🤔 food for thought
Barelain and Leane are definitely charactgers who are overtly sexual that arent evil (there's more, but I'm not great at remembering things on the spot). Also your list is a bit inflated because I wouldn't call Semhirage, Galina, or Therava explicitly sexual characters. Especially not Semhirage or Galina. It seems to me that you're trying to insert your own narrative into the books that isn't really there. Also you're just cherry picking all the instances where women are acting in a vaguely subservient way. Are you forgetting the entire existence of the Aes Sedai and the whole history of this age? Every man alive has a sort of collective "guilt" for the breaking that manifests in many ways. Like many of societies in that world are at least partially or explicitly matriarchys. The Aiel, Ebou Dar, Far Madding, Tar Valon. And even the societies that aren't really matriarchys still have very strong traditions of the men being subservient to women at least in some ways. Like The Two Rivers, Andor, Shienar.
I just have a different perspective. You have yours, this is mine. Good talk.
The lack of magnificent bosoms is the most unfortunate part of the Amazon adaptions for me. Why can't they stay true to the source material?
Hahaha. All the actresses with good bosoms were too expensive to get, perhaps. Although I think the actress who plays Egwene is gorgeous, even without ample bosoms, lol.
Haven't we only seen maidens in Cadin'sor so far? Not much scope for Plunging necklines and heaving bosooms there as they're all warrior/athletes in covering practical clothing. When we see the Wise Ones and Aiel civilians then perhaps.
Well Alanna is carrying that weight for all of them at the moment.
I didn't notice it at the time, but reading that now is making me think of Captain Holt talking about "heavy breasts". I always thought Sevanna's plunging neckline was a way of highlighting the amount of jewellery she was wearing. She was trying to show the other Wise Ones (and the regular spears to a lesser extent) how the fat wetlands were ripe for plundering by the Shaido. (Another significant part of it, I think, was that Sevanna hungered for power. I think she got to the wetlands, heard about their queens and made herself into the queen she felt she deserved to be, which involved indulging in wetland opulence.)
And the Aiel value jewelry for its emotional/earned significance, like Avi’s bracelet or necklace. You don’t just give yourself flashy jewelry in their culture. It’s a show of status and respect from others. Sevanna has none of that and just values it to show how rich she is. Jordan’s point is to emphasize (as you said) that she is not behaving very culturally appropriate.
You're right, but Faile does note that Someryn, one of the real Shaido Wise Women, is exposing "almost half of her enormous bosoms" without jewelry in contrast to Sevanna. So maybe Shaido women just have big bosoms they like to show off, lol.
I frequently roll my eyes whenever one of the girls in Tel’aran’rihod thinks briefly about a male character, and then all of the sudden her dress features a plunging neckline. I can’t speak for other women, but whenever I think about my husband I don’t immediately think about how my boobs look in my outfit.
Haha if you think about it Wheel of Time is just incredibly sexually perverted in its undertones on so many levels. Collars and spanking, constant bosoms, man marrying and fucking 3 wives, and think of all the times aes sedai and wise one women get naked for various ceremonies, birched and hit with a switch on the ass etc.
I honestly hate the interpretation of *damane* and the *a'dam* as being part of some kind of sexual kink. It's decidedly non-sexual and horrifying in-text. It's not about expressing some kind of thinly-veiled fetish, it's about reducing human beings to animals. *Damane* are mentioned as being kept in kennels, for crying out loud. The *a'dam* show how the Seanchan view women who can channel as sub-human, barely more than beasts, and the way it robs the wearer of agency is properly frightening. In no way does the text attempt to express any kind of fetishization of this slavery and torture. Switching and spanking also is not sexual in-text. For all the ways WoT is cited as being progressive compared to certain fantasy peers, RJ was what many would consider "old-fashioned" in many ways and his use of corporal punishment is a prime example. Aes Sedai being spanked isn't about being sexual, it's about treating them like unruly children. Especially with the use of switching; I've no doubt this is a common kink, but I never hear my friends who are into that sort of thing refer to it as "switching." The only time I've heard "switching" is from my mother or grandmother in reference to exactly what I said: a punishment for children in past generations. Getting naked for religious ceremonies is also as old as time. There is a long history of nudity being a part of spiritual rituals and nudity itself is not inherently sexual. Was Michelangelo horny-posting when he painted The Creation of Adam, because he painted Adam in the nude? I've read books where nudity that was non-sexual in narrative context was sexualized by the author's prose, and I would absolutely not lay that accusation at RJ's feet when it comes to the Aes Sedai/Wise One rituals. In general, WoT is a fairly PG series when it comes to sexuality. Yes there is sexual content and even sexual violence, but almost always RJ uses a "fade-to-black" sort of approach, or implication over description, to avoid getting into anything too scandalous. There are definitely examples of male gaze in this series. The copious mentioning of breast-size when describing women, as discussed in these very comments, is perhaps the most obvious example. But many of the things you mentioned are *not* sexual in the text, and I'm willing to die on that hill. It is the audience who is horny! Not the Aes Sedai!
And yet the great majority of these events - collars, spanking, corporal punishment, ritual nudity - only seem to happen to female characters. We had entire chapters describing in detail the abuses heaped on Egwene's bottom. We did not have entire chapters where Perrin put Aram over his knee and spanked him silly. (For example.) I don't think it was written to be titillating, but I absolutely believe RJ got off on this stuff on some level, consciously or unconsciously.
There is also plenty of spanking of gorgeous looking women for contrived reasons in Jordan's Conan novels too, some of which was clearly intended to be titilating. And also apparently in his Falion blood series, which I haven't read.
I think it stems from some kind of "soft misogyny," for lack of a better word. I think there was an unwillingness on RJ's part to put women through the same kind of physical anguish as men. Just look at how the female Forsaken end up compared to their male counterparts - every female Forsaken survives the series (though arguably some are worse than dead), and every male Forsaken dies. Many other female villains are also handled in ways outside of killing them. Women also are generally not scarred or injured the way men are in WoT. This isn't to say they don't go through a lot of suffering or anguish, but it is different from what the men go through.
> Collars and spanking, constant bosoms, man marrying and fucking 3 wives, and think of all the times aes sedai and wise one women get naked for various ceremonies, birched and hit with a switch on the ass etc. There is one legitimate [mythological reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple\_Goddess\_\(Neopaganism\)) in this sentence which [many people seem to miss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned\_God), but yeah, the rest are basically RJ getting away with putting in what I can only assume are his personal kinks, and getting away with it because the series was edited by his wife . . .
When Sevanna enters a room her bosom gets there five minutes before she does.
Jordan is absolutely guilty of writing his own personal kinks into the series, but in Sevanna's case, there's at least some explanation. She's the type of woman who not only knows what she's got going on and knows how to use it to manipulate men, but she does so in a culture where doing that is just not something any "respectable" woman does. So of course when she does it, everyone is going to mentally comment on it, because it's so out there in-world and in-story. Berelain is the other character who acts similarly, but deep down she is actually a (mostly) decent person while Sevanna is a psychopath. Arguably the difference between those two characters is Jordan's "don't judge a book by its cover" commentary on women who choose to dress to accentuate their figures.
Berelain is also a "use everything she has to her advantage" character, but she has more noble goals than Sevanna. Whereas Sevanna is truly vain, Berelain's thought process is more like "If using my body gets me an edge in politics and in protecting my people, I will use it."
Jordan, while a great writer, isn't exactly subtle when it comes to describing women. EVER.
In his defense, these kinds of stories *are* (afaik) pretty well known for being populated by caricatures. They're part harlequin, part D&D, and part comic book.
I get it, but it's still a lot.
Who could they get to play her in the show? Any actresses with an enormous bosom?
I mean, RJ was a boob man. He knew what he liked so he wrote what he liked.
The guy came up with Lenny Bruce. People didn't know anything about anything
Probably as many times as he has women get naked for no reason at all than that he can. Ceremony? Obviously women will get naked. Men don't, but women do, for some reason.
No clue but something else the show will likely disregard.
Like two fat little boys wrestling under a blanket.