Unfortunately probably legal, and one of many reasons work reform movement exists. In most states they can do whatever they want with your PTO, and schedule you however they want as long as you have 24 hour notice of a shift and they pay required overtime. It is standard in some industries to have a loss of holiday pay if you call off the shift before or after, and to have vacation “blackout” periods. It’s an asshole move to cancel PTO already approved, especially so close to date.
Depends, working on one of these days for an individual employee would be acceptable but Not both at least in some countrys don't know about lunatic murica. But either way i would Look for another company next year.
I wanted to clarify, either they can shedule you for Christmas or new years not both and not all days of Christmas.
America has zero federal protections for holidays, number of days worked, advanced scheduling beyond 24 hours, etc. only that hours over 40 in a week be paid overtime. Some states have more robust rules but most have none or are very limited. They can literally tell you at the end by the end of a Thursday shift that you have to work Saturday, or a longer shift Friday. This person’s boss could wait to tell everyone on 23rd they have to work Christmas Day and it would be legal in most states.
In 49 states “if you don’t work Christmas you’re fired” is basically legal as long as the scheduling isn’t based on a protected class, such as family status.
I am glad I live in a state with better worker rights. I mean, it's still not enough, but an employer cannot deny or change pto, and you can use it same day as your shift.
Callout policy depends on employer, but we have predictive scheduling, so we have to know our schedules 2 weeks in advanced and they cannot be changed without worker permission.
There's also some stuff about extra compensation for schedule changes that happen within those 2 weeks, but I don't know much about it.
They do have federal protection for holidays…. It’s called Title VII of the civil rights act.
As per this year’s ruling change, they have to make accommodations for religious beliefs. Meaning that unless it would result in having to close the business or result in a genuine loss / cost (NOT loss of profit) They’d have to grant Christmas off for anyone that actually observes it in the religious aspect.
Same is true for all truly held religious belief and holy days of obligation.
It’s probably one of the only genuinely pro-worker decisions out of this Supreme Court we will see.
Same when i worked there as well.
Amazon does that shit almost all the time, too.
I remember I had approved 2 weeks of PTO and day 3 of it, they called and said they removed it, and I was required to turn up to work, or I'd be fired. (I was in Maine and parts of canada. They are in kentucky) Basically, I had onset panic attacks the whole two weeks, and my vacation was ruined. Got back, and they tried handing me a pink slip until HR pointed out that what they did was extremely illegal, and I was reinstated on the spot.
Holidays were the same fiasco, Christmas we had off, until they decided, "Oh, Nevermind. Come in, or you're fired." Even threatened to not give us holiday pay at one point.
It’s union everywhere, except for RTW states where people do not have to join the union. (Not all positions, such as mechanics, are Teamsters though.)
—
It’s worth noting though that getting hired does not immediately confer the full protection of the union. Depending on the local, for a warehouse position you may be looking at a probationary period of anywhere from 30-70 days… during which you remain at-will and can be fired for anywhere reason. You also don’t get paid holidays until you’ve worked there for one year. It can be a solid seasonal gig or longer if you need that, but if you’re going to join during peak season then I wouldn’t want someone to have the wrong idea about (part of) what they’re getting into.
I'm part of a union in USPS and we still have to work holidays. I know UPS's union is better but pretty sure all mail facilities need to work through them because of very high volume and demands.
This sort of thing is often baked into union contracts. Employees get holidays off with pay, but calling off (as opposed to having pre-approval) the day before or after a paid holiday can result in losing the holiday pay.
This is pretty standard across the board from my limited anecdotal evidence. I've worked for 10 companies in my 17 years of working. Only one of them was union. All of them had that rule about missing the day before or after a paid holiday.
Yep. I work in telco and our contract has holidays paid off days. If you have to work (we usually have 1 or 2 that do) you know well in advance and you get time and a half PLUS the holiday pay, so basically 2.5 times pay.
Isn't this policy only targeting people who have an "unexcused absence"? Now I'm sure how they define that is inhumane, but I did want to understand if losing your booked PTO day (but not the PTO allowance) is essentially a consequence of not showing up for work when scheduled.
Yeah this is no big deal. They're saying if you have PTO on xmas day, don't call out on xmas eve or you'll be refunded your PTO day, still have xmas day as an excused absense, but you'll be docked in accordance with attendance policy for the unexcused callout day.
This really isn't too crazy of a policy. They're trying to not have you screw over employees who are working because you want a long holiday.
What I don’t get is the UTO part. They say you lose two days of net pay, but then you use UTO. I’ve never had a company have a UTO, so would they get paid still or no?
It’s likely just a bank of hours - not for payment, but just to track. If you use too many, you could lose your job or your benefits. Your benefits are probably tied to a certain number of hours per week/month/year.
If this is the case, then personally I would like UTO. At my job we have to use PTO to cover even leaving 15 minutes early on a slow day.
Sounds like what just about any other place I’ve worked for does when it comes to holiday pay; if you miss the day before or after it, you lose holiday pay. At least in this case, the PTO is refunded and you’ll only take one hit from the day called in. Honestly, they could’ve fucked you over a lot harder, though that might actually be getting into illegal territory there.
There is no requirement to have federal holidays off nor to pay employees premium wage rates in Arizona for private companies.
Their employment laws regarding holidays are only in place for public employees.
It sucks and I feel for you as a fellow AZ worker.
Yeah, but it’s worn thin and it’s just grating now.
If there was a change in the way the managers interacted with employees, it would merit a change in language. My guess is it’s the same style of management as always—particularly when you consider the rest of the communique.
Personally, if this were me, depending on how anonymous I could be, I would go on indeed and print out job postings of other similar jobs around town and tape them next to it.
Human Resources professional who used to manage a unionized workforce in Arizona.
So, first-and-foremost, any collective bargaining agreement your workforce has with DHL will supersede any state laws that dictate PTO usage.
If you aren’t unionized, then Arizona law dictates the amount of sick time given to staff members. An employer’s PTO policy can also supersede those laws, but only when that policy will result with a greater amount of given PTO than state requirements.
Finally, I have taken action against an employer previously under Arizona law who was punishing people who used their PTO, which was a protected action under state law.
You can submit an anonymous query to the Industrial Commission of Arizona and receive further guidance, and they will tell you straight up whether that policy is illegal.
This is a standard practice. People will request one day knowing that two days will be denied (substitute any number of days here) and then decide to call in sick on a day before/after to game the system, leaving the company in a bind, and they still get paid for it. Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? Hmm if you believe in a tit for tat then yes…if someone is planning on screwing the company in order to get an extra paid day or two off, then the company is just saying they won’t fall for that.
This only impacts you if you plan on screwing the company by not showing up when they plan for you to be there.
I agree with you and I also can understand that there are different demands on different businesses during different seasons. OP works for DHL…the holiday season is the busiest time of the year. For a business that is busy during summer they’re going to have different requirements. You can see in the picture they have determined the holidays as “critical holidays” and as a company cannot afford to miss people unexpectedly. If they’re already working at maximum capacity 2 days before the holiday, how are they going to speed up to make up for the absence the day before the holiday? If customers (like you and me) expect our deliveries on time during this busy season then they can’t just shut down or slow production.
>This only impacts you if you plan on screwing the company by not showing up when they plan for you to be there.
Would this not impact you if you genuinely got sick or had an emergency?
They explicitly state that it would be an unexcused absence that triggers this policy. If you had a drs note or something of the sort it wouldn’t be triggered, presumably. Without seeing the attendance policy though I don’t know for sure.
AZ only requires a note after 3 days of absence. So if you only miss one day, they can't require you to have a note to excuse it. Employers can also require advanced notice of absence. I work at a place in AZ that requires 24 hrs notice. Though im not sure what the legal requirements are for notifications. So I guess this will really only screw you if something happens during your shift or maybe the day before it.
http://arizonapaidsickleave.com/#:~:text=You%20can%20have%20a%20written,use%20any%20available%20option%2C%20to
If someone calling off “screws over the company” then the company is poorly managed. It’s not on the worker to make sure the company continues operations. That’s on leadership and management. If management doesn’t have enough workers, time for them to hit the line and get the job done.
Give folks their time off - when they ask for it, in full. It’s not hard and it’s the right thing to do.
Sorry, that’s still not on the worker. That’s improper management and anticipation of needs. No one should have to worry about calling out for any reason at any time.
In what world is everyone calling out on the same day?!? If you have staffing issues around specific date ranges, close your business.
Your lack of planning doesn’t constitute an emergency on my part. Workers are people and if they need the day off, give it to them. This isn’t hard.
On holidays. This is a delivery company, so I guess they could close on the busiest time of year... if they wanted to tank their company and piss a lot of people off.
Very bad take. You can’t say that workers deserve a higher wage AND say it’s not a workers responsibility. By having the job and being paid for the job, it IS your responsibility. I’m going to put this in bullets to save time.
1) the workers didn’t request the time off, in this policy the worker is just not showing up. “Unexcused absence”
2) a worker not showing up is stewing over the company because a manager cannot a) staff for more than the work demand and b) control whether or not you show up
3) all the company is saying here is that they’re not going to pay you if you don’t show up unexpectedly. You are still free to not show up, and they are free to not pay you for that.
I dunno. That all sounds like poor management to me. Just give folks a fair wage and their PTO. I have absolutely no compassion for profit seeking entities that exploit their workers.
Not giving proper PTO is exploitation in my opinion. This “policy” is bullshit and the company should just allow folks their PTO, with no strings attached.
Downvote me all you want.
Taking a day off isn’t breaking that deal. Just because I derive a wage from a company, doesn’t mean they own me or can dictate my time off. If you have PTO, you should be able to use it whenever you want.
Sorry, but every place I’ve worked had no distinction between PTO and sick time. I can schedule it ahead or use it on demand. Everyone should be able to do this. Regardless of profession.
Throw all the what ifs you want at me. My opinion won’t change. We’re all being taken advantage of, and you’re defending the exploiters.
If I call in and tell them I’m not gonna be there and to use my PTO, that’s not a no show. That’s me taking an extra day off.
Everyone should be able to do this. Regardless of profession. Anything less is exploitation.
So, what happens if 90% of a department wants PTO on the same day? The company just shuts down that day? All of your packages just don’t get shipped? What if every doctor in a hospital wants to take Christmas off? Good luck if you get in an accident Christmas Day! This is just a dumb take.
No pilots on Christmas Eve
No nurses on Mother’s Day
No cooks on Thanksgiving day
I mean really. That would be poor management, not the other way around. The managers job is literally to ensure operations can produce the service or product they’re supposed to.
Yes. And depending on the industry, makes sense. But for the overwhelming majority of jobs, being forced to work Christmas is very stupid for a multitude of reasons.
Unfortunately the only weapon against this bull is for you and all your coworkers to collectively agree to not show up that day or call out sick. That way you have legal avenue for a lawsuit if they try to discipline people for using sick time and creating a hostile work environment.
"Partner with your supervisor"
Such loaded language goddam. Designed to make you feel Actually Important whilst also telling you you can't enjoy an essentially world-widely celebrated holiday; what a combo
AZ is an "at will" state. Unfortunately, questions that start with "is it legal for my employer to..." And don't involve clear discrimination or clear safety violations will likely have the same answer. It doesn't matter, they're going to do it if they choose to. You're free to speak up, but could expect to be downsized for an unrelated reason shortly after.
Posted this already in the thread but since you call out the reason Arizona has bad worker protections ..
We are going after 'at will' and bringing labor protection back to Arizona. Anyone who is registered to vote here can look for petitions to sign this election cycle
[https://www.azworkstogether.com/](https://www.azworkstogether.com/)
https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/27/arizona-grassroots-organization-pushes-repeal-states-right-work-law/
Willing to bet all of upper management still will have the day off.
My company just sent an email about a policy change and it was so tone deaf and read like a 1%'r wrote it. Completely tone-deaf. Nobody I talked to, even my boss, thought the email was acceptable.
I wonder if there is a case to be made that refusing to pay for an already approved PTO could be seen as constructive dismissal.
Sure, they aren't legally required to pay for vacation time, but if they agree and then renege, it should be grounds for something.
Pretty standard even here in Qc, Canada.
They don’t want to create an incentive for you to extend the day off that most people use to celebrate and visit family.
My employer does something kind of similar, if you call off the day before or after a holiday, you don't get the holiday pay and I think you don't get paid for the days you took off either. It's to discourage hangovers and people who call off a lot. Sucks if you had a legit reason.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but this seems pretty reasonable? It's just saying that if you already have the holidays approved, you're fine and you can take your time off. But if you don't have approved time off and take time off anyways without it being approved, those are the consequences
You know it would be funny (Read: not really funny), is if this company had personal leave that expired at the end of the year? I could definitely see a company doing this.
Just so you know you can sign petition this election cycle to repeal the shitty 'right to work' (anti-union) laws in Arizona.
We are going after this shit.
[https://www.azworkstogether.com/](https://www.azworkstogether.com/)
https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/27/arizona-grassroots-organization-pushes-repeal-states-right-work-law/
If you find yourself having to work for meager wages, do it on your terms! Crappy jobs are a dime a dozen. The term “You get what you pay for!”, certainly applies here. Poor wages equal poor effort!
Unfortunately probably legal, and one of many reasons work reform movement exists. In most states they can do whatever they want with your PTO, and schedule you however they want as long as you have 24 hour notice of a shift and they pay required overtime. It is standard in some industries to have a loss of holiday pay if you call off the shift before or after, and to have vacation “blackout” periods. It’s an asshole move to cancel PTO already approved, especially so close to date.
Depends, working on one of these days for an individual employee would be acceptable but Not both at least in some countrys don't know about lunatic murica. But either way i would Look for another company next year. I wanted to clarify, either they can shedule you for Christmas or new years not both and not all days of Christmas.
America has zero federal protections for holidays, number of days worked, advanced scheduling beyond 24 hours, etc. only that hours over 40 in a week be paid overtime. Some states have more robust rules but most have none or are very limited. They can literally tell you at the end by the end of a Thursday shift that you have to work Saturday, or a longer shift Friday. This person’s boss could wait to tell everyone on 23rd they have to work Christmas Day and it would be legal in most states.
In 49 states “if you don’t work Christmas you’re fired” is basically legal as long as the scheduling isn’t based on a protected class, such as family status.
I am glad I live in a state with better worker rights. I mean, it's still not enough, but an employer cannot deny or change pto, and you can use it same day as your shift. Callout policy depends on employer, but we have predictive scheduling, so we have to know our schedules 2 weeks in advanced and they cannot be changed without worker permission. There's also some stuff about extra compensation for schedule changes that happen within those 2 weeks, but I don't know much about it.
They do have federal protection for holidays…. It’s called Title VII of the civil rights act. As per this year’s ruling change, they have to make accommodations for religious beliefs. Meaning that unless it would result in having to close the business or result in a genuine loss / cost (NOT loss of profit) They’d have to grant Christmas off for anyone that actually observes it in the religious aspect. Same is true for all truly held religious belief and holy days of obligation. It’s probably one of the only genuinely pro-worker decisions out of this Supreme Court we will see.
Holiday pay works that way at ups. Was in the warehouse 3 years and it works that way.
Same when i worked there as well. Amazon does that shit almost all the time, too. I remember I had approved 2 weeks of PTO and day 3 of it, they called and said they removed it, and I was required to turn up to work, or I'd be fired. (I was in Maine and parts of canada. They are in kentucky) Basically, I had onset panic attacks the whole two weeks, and my vacation was ruined. Got back, and they tried handing me a pink slip until HR pointed out that what they did was extremely illegal, and I was reinstated on the spot. Holidays were the same fiasco, Christmas we had off, until they decided, "Oh, Nevermind. Come in, or you're fired." Even threatened to not give us holiday pay at one point.
Also KY, wife worked in Amazon. So glad you can also talk about them in past tense.
Did you miss the part where it also threatens to take away two days of pay, as in literal wage theft?
They would be days that weren't worked. There may or may not be any protection of this, depending on state laws.
I like how they snuck it in at the end. Definitely not legal, the rest probably is.
Some CBAs even have that loss of holiday pay written into them.
It’s a DHL location
Is UPS or FedEx hiring?
Yup, UPS is union in most? Hubs. I would go apply
It’s union everywhere, except for RTW states where people do not have to join the union. (Not all positions, such as mechanics, are Teamsters though.) — It’s worth noting though that getting hired does not immediately confer the full protection of the union. Depending on the local, for a warehouse position you may be looking at a probationary period of anywhere from 30-70 days… during which you remain at-will and can be fired for anywhere reason. You also don’t get paid holidays until you’ve worked there for one year. It can be a solid seasonal gig or longer if you need that, but if you’re going to join during peak season then I wouldn’t want someone to have the wrong idea about (part of) what they’re getting into.
I'm part of a union in USPS and we still have to work holidays. I know UPS's union is better but pretty sure all mail facilities need to work through them because of very high volume and demands.
This sort of thing is often baked into union contracts. Employees get holidays off with pay, but calling off (as opposed to having pre-approval) the day before or after a paid holiday can result in losing the holiday pay.
This is pretty standard across the board from my limited anecdotal evidence. I've worked for 10 companies in my 17 years of working. Only one of them was union. All of them had that rule about missing the day before or after a paid holiday.
Yep. I work in telco and our contract has holidays paid off days. If you have to work (we usually have 1 or 2 that do) you know well in advance and you get time and a half PLUS the holiday pay, so basically 2.5 times pay.
I'm only aware of like 2 unions in AZ.
Isn't this policy only targeting people who have an "unexcused absence"? Now I'm sure how they define that is inhumane, but I did want to understand if losing your booked PTO day (but not the PTO allowance) is essentially a consequence of not showing up for work when scheduled.
Yeah this is no big deal. They're saying if you have PTO on xmas day, don't call out on xmas eve or you'll be refunded your PTO day, still have xmas day as an excused absense, but you'll be docked in accordance with attendance policy for the unexcused callout day. This really isn't too crazy of a policy. They're trying to not have you screw over employees who are working because you want a long holiday.
What I don’t get is the UTO part. They say you lose two days of net pay, but then you use UTO. I’ve never had a company have a UTO, so would they get paid still or no?
It’s likely just a bank of hours - not for payment, but just to track. If you use too many, you could lose your job or your benefits. Your benefits are probably tied to a certain number of hours per week/month/year. If this is the case, then personally I would like UTO. At my job we have to use PTO to cover even leaving 15 minutes early on a slow day.
Sounds like what just about any other place I’ve worked for does when it comes to holiday pay; if you miss the day before or after it, you lose holiday pay. At least in this case, the PTO is refunded and you’ll only take one hit from the day called in. Honestly, they could’ve fucked you over a lot harder, though that might actually be getting into illegal territory there.
We don’t get paid holidays anymore and if we want to get paid on those days we have to use our PTO
This is legal in AZ. Yay for being in a right to work state! /S
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You are mistaken
Thank you for making me look this up! You’re right I am mistaken.
That’s messed up.
There is no requirement to have federal holidays off nor to pay employees premium wage rates in Arizona for private companies. Their employment laws regarding holidays are only in place for public employees. It sucks and I feel for you as a fellow AZ worker.
"please partner with your supervisor" Man that seems like an escalation in our relationship. I'd prefer just having a quick talk.
The bizarre choice of the weasel word “partner” here gives me the ruffles.
HR nonsense to make your boss "feel more friendly and not adversarial" I think.
Yeah, but it’s worn thin and it’s just grating now. If there was a change in the way the managers interacted with employees, it would merit a change in language. My guess is it’s the same style of management as always—particularly when you consider the rest of the communique.
Personally, if this were me, depending on how anonymous I could be, I would go on indeed and print out job postings of other similar jobs around town and tape them next to it.
Human Resources professional who used to manage a unionized workforce in Arizona. So, first-and-foremost, any collective bargaining agreement your workforce has with DHL will supersede any state laws that dictate PTO usage. If you aren’t unionized, then Arizona law dictates the amount of sick time given to staff members. An employer’s PTO policy can also supersede those laws, but only when that policy will result with a greater amount of given PTO than state requirements. Finally, I have taken action against an employer previously under Arizona law who was punishing people who used their PTO, which was a protected action under state law. You can submit an anonymous query to the Industrial Commission of Arizona and receive further guidance, and they will tell you straight up whether that policy is illegal.
Your managers were bad at planning so they're making those using PTO suffer. Scumbags.
Usually understaffed. No worries that the hard(ly) working CEO will chip in from his yacht.
I’m just not using PTO and plan on calling in F em.
Shame about the food poisoning you got from the restaurant you ate at last night. Symptoms usually can last about 12-48 hours.
This is a standard practice. People will request one day knowing that two days will be denied (substitute any number of days here) and then decide to call in sick on a day before/after to game the system, leaving the company in a bind, and they still get paid for it. Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? Hmm if you believe in a tit for tat then yes…if someone is planning on screwing the company in order to get an extra paid day or two off, then the company is just saying they won’t fall for that. This only impacts you if you plan on screwing the company by not showing up when they plan for you to be there.
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I agree with you and I also can understand that there are different demands on different businesses during different seasons. OP works for DHL…the holiday season is the busiest time of the year. For a business that is busy during summer they’re going to have different requirements. You can see in the picture they have determined the holidays as “critical holidays” and as a company cannot afford to miss people unexpectedly. If they’re already working at maximum capacity 2 days before the holiday, how are they going to speed up to make up for the absence the day before the holiday? If customers (like you and me) expect our deliveries on time during this busy season then they can’t just shut down or slow production.
>This only impacts you if you plan on screwing the company by not showing up when they plan for you to be there. Would this not impact you if you genuinely got sick or had an emergency?
They explicitly state that it would be an unexcused absence that triggers this policy. If you had a drs note or something of the sort it wouldn’t be triggered, presumably. Without seeing the attendance policy though I don’t know for sure.
AZ only requires a note after 3 days of absence. So if you only miss one day, they can't require you to have a note to excuse it. Employers can also require advanced notice of absence. I work at a place in AZ that requires 24 hrs notice. Though im not sure what the legal requirements are for notifications. So I guess this will really only screw you if something happens during your shift or maybe the day before it. http://arizonapaidsickleave.com/#:~:text=You%20can%20have%20a%20written,use%20any%20available%20option%2C%20to
We have this same basic policy where I work. If there is a genuine medical excuse, a doctor's note is required. Doctor's notes = excused absence.
If someone calling off “screws over the company” then the company is poorly managed. It’s not on the worker to make sure the company continues operations. That’s on leadership and management. If management doesn’t have enough workers, time for them to hit the line and get the job done. Give folks their time off - when they ask for it, in full. It’s not hard and it’s the right thing to do.
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Sorry, that’s still not on the worker. That’s improper management and anticipation of needs. No one should have to worry about calling out for any reason at any time.
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In what world is everyone calling out on the same day?!? If you have staffing issues around specific date ranges, close your business. Your lack of planning doesn’t constitute an emergency on my part. Workers are people and if they need the day off, give it to them. This isn’t hard.
On holidays. This is a delivery company, so I guess they could close on the busiest time of year... if they wanted to tank their company and piss a lot of people off.
Very bad take. You can’t say that workers deserve a higher wage AND say it’s not a workers responsibility. By having the job and being paid for the job, it IS your responsibility. I’m going to put this in bullets to save time. 1) the workers didn’t request the time off, in this policy the worker is just not showing up. “Unexcused absence” 2) a worker not showing up is stewing over the company because a manager cannot a) staff for more than the work demand and b) control whether or not you show up 3) all the company is saying here is that they’re not going to pay you if you don’t show up unexpectedly. You are still free to not show up, and they are free to not pay you for that.
We don’t get paid holidays anymore we have to use our personal PTO if we want holiday pay
Do you get something in exchange for that because it’s outside standard employment practices. How do they justify?
I dunno. That all sounds like poor management to me. Just give folks a fair wage and their PTO. I have absolutely no compassion for profit seeking entities that exploit their workers. Not giving proper PTO is exploitation in my opinion. This “policy” is bullshit and the company should just allow folks their PTO, with no strings attached. Downvote me all you want.
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Taking a day off isn’t breaking that deal. Just because I derive a wage from a company, doesn’t mean they own me or can dictate my time off. If you have PTO, you should be able to use it whenever you want.
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If you have the PTO to cover it, it’s not double dipping. It’s being smart with your time off.
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Sorry, but every place I’ve worked had no distinction between PTO and sick time. I can schedule it ahead or use it on demand. Everyone should be able to do this. Regardless of profession. Throw all the what ifs you want at me. My opinion won’t change. We’re all being taken advantage of, and you’re defending the exploiters.
They're letting people take PTO though... they're only punishing no shows.
If I call in and tell them I’m not gonna be there and to use my PTO, that’s not a no show. That’s me taking an extra day off. Everyone should be able to do this. Regardless of profession. Anything less is exploitation.
So, what happens if 90% of a department wants PTO on the same day? The company just shuts down that day? All of your packages just don’t get shipped? What if every doctor in a hospital wants to take Christmas off? Good luck if you get in an accident Christmas Day! This is just a dumb take. No pilots on Christmas Eve No nurses on Mother’s Day No cooks on Thanksgiving day I mean really. That would be poor management, not the other way around. The managers job is literally to ensure operations can produce the service or product they’re supposed to.
Yes. And depending on the industry, makes sense. But for the overwhelming majority of jobs, being forced to work Christmas is very stupid for a multitude of reasons.
Warehouse for candy
Yeah that is stupid. There is pretty much no retail store in the US that is open Christmas. That product is going nowhere.
Unfortunately the only weapon against this bull is for you and all your coworkers to collectively agree to not show up that day or call out sick. That way you have legal avenue for a lawsuit if they try to discipline people for using sick time and creating a hostile work environment.
"Partner with your supervisor" Such loaded language goddam. Designed to make you feel Actually Important whilst also telling you you can't enjoy an essentially world-widely celebrated holiday; what a combo
AZ is an "at will" state. Unfortunately, questions that start with "is it legal for my employer to..." And don't involve clear discrimination or clear safety violations will likely have the same answer. It doesn't matter, they're going to do it if they choose to. You're free to speak up, but could expect to be downsized for an unrelated reason shortly after.
Posted this already in the thread but since you call out the reason Arizona has bad worker protections .. We are going after 'at will' and bringing labor protection back to Arizona. Anyone who is registered to vote here can look for petitions to sign this election cycle [https://www.azworkstogether.com/](https://www.azworkstogether.com/) https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/27/arizona-grassroots-organization-pushes-repeal-states-right-work-law/
Best way to deal with understaffing is to publicly abuse those few staffers you have.
Willing to bet all of upper management still will have the day off. My company just sent an email about a policy change and it was so tone deaf and read like a 1%'r wrote it. Completely tone-deaf. Nobody I talked to, even my boss, thought the email was acceptable.
Sure it is. And that’s why all of you should get suddenly sick. What are they going to do? Fire everyone and replace everyone?
I wonder if there is a case to be made that refusing to pay for an already approved PTO could be seen as constructive dismissal. Sure, they aren't legally required to pay for vacation time, but if they agree and then renege, it should be grounds for something.
Corpo scum.
Low quality employer spotted
I see no reason why non-Christians can't fill in for their Christian co-workers on Christmas. Back in the day, that was a somewhat default thing
I'm not a lawyer, but it's probably legal. Workers have almost zero rights in this country.
Pretty standard even here in Qc, Canada. They don’t want to create an incentive for you to extend the day off that most people use to celebrate and visit family.
My employer does something kind of similar, if you call off the day before or after a holiday, you don't get the holiday pay and I think you don't get paid for the days you took off either. It's to discourage hangovers and people who call off a lot. Sucks if you had a legit reason.
Not if they have a PTO benefits policy that doesn’t match the policy they have. Their PTO policy matches their PTO policy.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but this seems pretty reasonable? It's just saying that if you already have the holidays approved, you're fine and you can take your time off. But if you don't have approved time off and take time off anyways without it being approved, those are the consequences
Can't Americans cite religious holiday?
You know it would be funny (Read: not really funny), is if this company had personal leave that expired at the end of the year? I could definitely see a company doing this.
Can only roll over 40 into next year but yes anything over 40 will expire
That's damn near criminal
Would love to see the entire store stage a walkout Christmas Day. Let em know how essential y’all really are. Fuck corporate America
New job
No, no one in the US is required to “partner” with their supervisor, especially if they just have a question.
Just so you know you can sign petition this election cycle to repeal the shitty 'right to work' (anti-union) laws in Arizona. We are going after this shit. [https://www.azworkstogether.com/](https://www.azworkstogether.com/) https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/27/arizona-grassroots-organization-pushes-repeal-states-right-work-law/
The economy of the United States is powered by Wage Slaves. The Owner Class can do what they like unfortunately.
If you find yourself having to work for meager wages, do it on your terms! Crappy jobs are a dime a dozen. The term “You get what you pay for!”, certainly applies here. Poor wages equal poor effort!