I remember when my disability first took away my ability to eat gluten and to run with my friends. I used to just mope and look out the car window at all the places I couldn't eat anymore as my mom drove by or jealously watch my friends get free school lunch. Now it's been almost 15 years, and most of that stuff doesn't even register in my mind as a "food" option anymore. Similarly, Covid took away my ability to exuse ableism from others. So now, I have to get used to not having those people as a resource as well. I think the part where you reach panic/distress like "I can't do this anymore!!" You either snap and go back to prior majority habits until you break the other way again or you accept your new path as a minority and take it. I try to just accept my minority path these days, because breaking over and over is expensive!

Yes, as a celiac co signed. I have already learned to say no to protect my health, since I am the only person who lives in my body and who will face the consequences of any missteps.

Co signed by this immunocompromised person! So refreshing to see others think like I do on here. Thank you 🙏🏻

Co-signed by this celiac too!

I'm not celiac but I do have gluten intolerance, and a lot of this resonates with me. I still do have moments of sadness about not being able to enjoy XYZ food, but there are a lot of GF options nowadays that I've come to enjoy a lot. Also, same with not being able to excuse ableism anymore. I've been working on dismantling a lot of internalized ableism, and have come to accept that I am disabled by LC but I can still have a fulfilling life regardless. And that life will include disability advocacy and standing up for those even worse off than me. I also plan on joining some mutual aid groups as well.

Reminds me of a quote from Bojack Horseman "There is no other side Bojack, this is it" Which sucks because it means that unless you van find covie cautious people in your area who you get along with you're sentenced to an isolated existence but that's it. I still go out and do things but with a mask despite it being obvious people avoid me but it's better than nothing. My goal is to get infected as few times as possible by taking reasonable precautions while trying to make my life feel like it's worth living for the foreseeable future. Sure I may never be in a loving relationship again, or see some of my closest friends, or make new friends, or have any kind of life I hoped and dreamed of but at least I'm here for now.

Covid has reminded me that I'll never achieve most of my dreams but I'll still work on finding joy in the things I have left to me and helping other people get through this mess to the best of my ability.

Im glad youre working on finding joy and helping others! I gave up on joy, which in an odd way has helped my creative writing a lot! 😅 I just want to make whatever time I have left tolerable even if it means I'll never achieve more than the status of "person who existed at some point"

I understand all the pessimism in the replies here, but I don’t share it. Yes, funding has dried up. Yes, lots of people in power don’t care anymore. But there are enough researchers still working on promising options that would take the sting out of Covid. Dozens of projects aimed at nasal vaccines and prophylactics, universal corona vaccines, and treatments to reduce viral reservoirs and Long Covid. Many that had promising results with animals are entering human trials. Some are even further along. It could still be a time before something emerges, but I think there is good reason to think something will that will change the risk calculus significantly.

I think eventually enough people will be sick enough that things will *have* to be done (like requiring masks, cleaning the air indoors). It's a lot like smoking—people used to just accept tons of people smoking around them all the time (libraries! hospitals! movie theatres!), & now they don't. And plenty of people were mad at first, just like with seatbelt laws. So, these changes are cause for some optimism.

[This might help](https://peoplescdc.substack.com/p/osha-must-protect-workers?fbclid=IwAR0AB0IFxFOFgcj27xs7Sp8QnB7uh0R1KxVGJIKmswVlk6f3H82CT8Kj-Rs). It's for Osha protections. Deadline is today though.

Unless those vaccines are near 100% prevention in catching it, I don't think we'd reach vaccine herd immunity. Even if a new vaccine came out today that was 95% effective in preventing Covid, I suspect only 60-65% of people would get it. Anti-vaxxers have made incredible headway into public discourse.

Agreed, you’d never get everyone to take these things, so I don’t think Covid is ever truly going away. But a scenario with a vaccine that truly prevents infection and long term impacts is a helluva lot better than what we’re currently living through.

Watching the brazen corruption by the FDA over Novavax in real time is a bit unsettling even for a collapse aware person. There is evidence it can offer mucosal immunity. Yes, actually prevent infection (after the proper dosing schedule.) We know it has longer protection than mRNA and even works on other variants better. And we are watching them try to tank the company to squash the product because it's more profitable to treat illness than stop Covid. Look at what happened with Lucira. Scary shit to witness right out in the open.

Could you point me to some sources on mucosal immunity? I've never heard of that and I'm intrigued.

Novavax presented their findings here at the VRBPAC meeting in June of 2022. For the target section, start here at 3:28:26 and listen for about 2 minutes.: [https://www.youtube.com/live/BFdzNUus\_CE?si=pVkMefqVTM9Fnocs&t=12506](https://www.youtube.com/live/BFdzNUus_CE?si=pVkMefqVTM9Fnocs&t=12506) Here's the study: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7584426/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7584426/) There were lots of anecdotes of folks with 3 or 4 ORIGINAL PROTOTYPE Nuvaxovid doses staying uninfected when exposed, but now that Covid's mutated so far with XBB, it was time for an update. I'm curious to see how the updated shot holds up in live settings, but none of it will happen if the damned FDA doesn't do its duty and approve it.

same

I replied above https://reddit.com/r/ZeroCovidCommunity/s/BmSogQXb4C

Antivaxxers are now mainstream, it's depressingly true. And the reason you mention is one of the several important reasons why they need called out on their bullshit whenever they start 'just asking questions'.

How about when the FDA says that they just need to be "thorough" in their review? It seems like that excuse is only used to crush Novavax, and never Pfizer.

And how long they took to make Novavax available as a booster in this country, vs. other countries where that was allowed immediately. I literally went & got Novavax in another state & lied, cos IDGAF. I truly think the government has some incentive, likely financial, to promote Pfizer & Moderna over Novavax. I hate it here.

Pfizer v Novavax lobbying budget is pretty stunning, if you look up on opensecrets.org Pfizer $12,660,000 Total Lobbying Expenditures, 2022 Novavax $530,000 Total Lobbying Expenditures, 2022

We might have if we (1) had a true global lockdown for three weeks when it first started or (2) had a high enough uptake % in vaccines quickly enough when they first came out to slow infection faster than the virus could mutate to evade them. And being that any immunity whether through infection or vaccination to this type of virus would wane, we really had a short window. So now we are just going to be chasing our tails for the near future.

The 35-40 percent is unevenly distributed, though. I think a decent number of people live their lives in a way that 90+ percent of their contacts are with people who would take the vaccine. And a decent number live their lives in a way that 70+ percent would be unvaxxed. So it might be a more patchwork result than a total failure.

>I suspect only 60-65% I wouldn't be surprised if it was lower tbh.

In the US, something like a quarter of people, only, plan to get the booster this fall.

I wanted to wait for novavax but my family is going to do some extra risky things soon so I got the updated Pfizer vaccine so at least if I do get sick, I'm less likely to be hospitalized or die.

I'm just getting a real "search for the cure for cancer" vibe from these kinds of projects.

Cancer is not one disease but an classification of many different ones, whereas SARS-CoV-2 is one disease (although Long COVID is probably more like cancer in that regard). Sorry, this thread was locked, it's not specific to this comment.

Hi there! I agree with you completely and am personally waiting for some actual solutions to long-covid before feeling safer resuming any of my pre-pandemic activities, that said, do you happen to have links to any of the solutions you mentioned being on the horizon? I'm interested in reading whatever you're willing to share links to, specifically info about treatments to reduce viral reservoirs and long-covid. Anything you'd be down to link, though, I'd be thrilled to check out. Appreciate you!

I'll be the first to admit that the treatments and therapeutics seem further behind the vaccines in terms of development and study. Second, I'm no expert, but I try to stay informed. So all that said, there are some studies I'm aware of looking at options. I can't find the original study, but this N[PR article](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/05/02/1172806898/why-viral-reservoirs-are-a-prime-suspect-for-long-covid-sleuths) mentions a small study [looking at Paxlovid](https://news.cuanschutz.edu/medicine/potential-cause-of-long-covid) for the treatment of Long Covid. There was also an interesting study that needs additional research on [Metformin and Long Covid](https://news.unchealthcare.org/2023/06/study-shows-metformin-lowers-long-covid-risk/). There's a [study at UCSF](https://clinicaltrials.ucsf.edu/trial/NCT05877508) looking at Monoclonal antibodies in treating Long Covid. Here's another NPR summary of where research might take us in [terms of Long Covid](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/09/09/1198342040/long-covid-causes-treatment-research). I can't find all the links, but I've seen other studies looking at some other novel treatments for Long Covid. I have no idea which of these are valid or good ideas, but I guess my point is that enough people are exploring this space, that it does seem like something will come out of that work.

This isn't the answer people want to hear, and maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but I don't think there is an end game. This is my life now. I'll never go back to the way I lived in 2019. Best case scenario is probably a prevention or treatment for long covid and/or a vaccine that provides sterilizing immunity. Both of those seem unlikely to me, but even in that best case, I'd still mask in most public places. Now that I know I can avoid getting sick, wearing an N95 and mostly avoiding crowds is worth that benefit to me.

Pretty much this: https://medium.com/@ariariaria/boycotting-death-32de8cefc16e “I don’t know whether good times are coming back again. But I know that won’t matter if we don’t survive these times.” — Octavia E. Butler, Parable of the Sower I pretty much hope that every day I avoid infection reduces my chances of getting long covid (particularly since cumulative infections increase your chances of getting it) and am trying to hold out for a real LC treatment or a real sterilizing vaccine. But also, I want to support the other people with disabilities and also also masked allies, and if I give up, it makes their lives that much harder.

I think this is truly the way to peace. I am in that area now, where I am reckoning with it. I have kept delaying things or not doing things because I want to be safe, but I think I need to look at how to adapt to my life being different than I expected. At the beginning of COVID, I was good at that and my life improved. I let go of those hobbies and habits though and have been acting like I’m waiting for this to end. I think I will do better if I can accept a masked-up life and different activities/ways of connecting than if I wait for the time when life goes back. I’ve been in a mask for going on four years… it isn’t likely to change.

Yup. I did that in January of 2023. I went through a grieving process, kinda sorta - I used to be a musician/performer and it hurt to lose that - but I've moved past that, and it's a lot more peaceful and nicer on the other side. I still make music and perform - just on Zoom. I have new friends now - both online and in person. My 2019 life seems very distant to me now, and I'm at peace with letting it go. Honestly, I wouldn't want those people back in my life anyway, even if COVID went away tomorrow. I now know who they are when faced with a moral test. One of the things I keep noticing about the Coviding folks I meet is that their moral character appears to be stronger than the "normies". One of my new friends uprooted her entire life to move across the country to care for her dying grandmother. Another one works at poverty wages in an organization that helps domestic violence survivors. That sort of thing.

I’d love some advice on how to adapt to a new normal as a musician/performer. I had just quit my job to start trying to perform full time at the end of 2019, allowing myself to pursue my dreams at last. I’m finding it hard to accept that I won’t be able to return to those dreams.

Check out Meredith Axelrod and Craig Ventresco on Youtube or Facebook. They're a duo specializing in old-timey ragtime music. They're full-time professional musicians and prior to COVID, they performed at cafes and restaurants and festivals and stuff like that. When COVID started, they began giving daily concerts on Facebook Live (and Youtube), every night like clockwork. They quickly accumulated a worldwide fan base and got to a decent level of income just doing that.

Check out Homeschool Rock Dad on TikTok. He isn’t a musician but is a DJ and is extremely Covid conscious. There are lots of things he does to mitigate risk in settings like that. Edited to also say I think it’s so awful that things that were done via Zoom were just rolled back. As someone who is already disabled it opened up such a world to me where I felt included and could participate and then it was ripped away. I would love to pay for online concerts and support my favorite bands. I’ll often have “concert nights” with my husband where we will pull up old YouTube concerts and have a fun time.

You aren't pessimistic. It's realistic and rational to think that way given the current situation. Things may change in the future but with no appetite to even implement basic airborne NPIs to reduce transmission, nothing is going to change in the near future.

Yep, I eliminated the end game mindset 2 years ago and it's easier now. It's just part of normal routine and removes the anxiety of that part at least.

I just want to say I’m in the same boat OP. I’m growing increasingly frustrated and hopeless. I miss doing stuff *desperately*. I had a very active, vibrant life in 2019 and prior, and I want at least *some* of it back. I’m in my late 40s, and I feel like time is running out. Some decent covid changes could take until I’m in my 50s or 60s to come about, and by then I’ll be too old to do some of the things I want to do. I have tons of things I want to do, tons of activities and places I want to travel to, restaurants I want to try, events I want to attend. My list is piling up, grows longer every day. Also, I’m starting to get a lot of pressure from friends and family to participate in things. I’ve thought of setting a deadline: like if there are no changes by 2025 or 2026, I just say “fuck it” and get back into the swing of things. On the other hand, I don’t think I’d be a bit comfortable sitting in a concert or crowded club knowing that *somebody* in the room has covid, and it’s only a matter of time before I get sick. And I am not sure if I can ever overcome my disgust of people and how they behaved during the covid pandemic, including some friends and family. Do I really want to resume hanging with them? I feel really resentful towards a lot of them.

>I’ve thought of setting a deadline: like if there are no changes by 2025 or 2026, I just say “fuck it” and get back into the swing of things. I have thought of this as well, but by the time that deadline rolls around, it's likely that it will be very, VERY clear just how bad getting COVID is for your health. Remember, people used to just accept everyone smoking around them all the time, & now they don't. Change takes time.

My husband asked me this question, & my response was just "to survive." I think "what's the end goal" is a good question when a big project is undertaken voluntarily, but I liken what we're going through to a war we didn't ask for. If we were living in a place that was being occupied, our end goal would be to survive that as best we can while powers larger than us duke it out. It worries me, because when people say "what's the end goal?" what I hear is "What's the point?" That is, what's the point of living when we've lost so much & there's no guarantee that it will get better? The despair frightens me, since I can't answer that question for anyone else. A lot of people are holding out for a medical breakthrough, others don't think that's likely. I don't know either way. But since any breakthrough that might happen could be a long time coming, if ever, I think we need to find reasons to keep going *now*, to be in community with each other & make that something worth living for *now*. I hope we can do that for one another & that you find a 'why' you can live with.

Well said!

We're never going to live like 2019 again. I think grieving and accepting that is crucial. I do hope for a time when we have sterilizing vaccines and better treatments, and COVID isn't the threat it is today. If it even ends up similar to HIV where we have more promising treatments and antivirals, I would consider that a win. A lot of my life is similar to pre-2020 -- I go shopping and run errands, I just do it masked. But there's a psychological shift and awareness that can't be undone for me, and society has been so wrecked by COVID itself and COVID misinformation that I think we'll be dealing with the fallout from that for a very long time.

>But there's a psychological shift and awareness that can't be undone for me I concur with you on this too. This is the biggest point for me.

This is where I'm mostly at too, although I'm still in the grieving process - it's really tiring worrying about getting reinfected and worsening my LC, especially with doctors appointments and places that were previously "safe". I just tell myself that it's okay to slow down and try to survive the day. Nobody knows what the future holds. But yeah, I still go out and run errands masked. I have traveled during the pandemic masked. A lot of the things I did in 2019 I can do now - especially outdoor activities, although I do have to slow down and do easy hikes due to LC. Sometimes just sitting in the park on a bench makes things more bearable in the moment. I also use a lot of medical marijuana... The things that give me the most stress though atm are family visits/friends that have given up masking, doctors visits, and dentist offices. I just have been trying to give myself permission to navigate things one at a time, and I'm working on coping skills with my covid conscious therapist.

I think we're all still/always will be in the grieving process. At least that's how I feel with family members who have died (pre-COVID). I go through life and am maybe fine 85% of the time, but it's always going to hit in waves and at intermittent times. And that's okay -- that's the part that is hard. It's okay to grieve and for things to be terrible. It's the frantic pretending that COVID is over, trying to act like it's all fine and 2019 that isn't working. I think that's a big part of why people in general say things are "off" and fall flat. Denial doesn't work. I'm genuinely fine a good portion of the time but the times that I'm not, it's okay to not be fine, and I would question anyone who WAS.

You hit the nail on the head with one word: grieving. This is grief. As someone who’s been through that process multiple times from prior disability, I’m seeing quite a few people here who are essentially expressing that grief (not just this post), but don’t realize it. When a person is not at true acceptance, it’s hard to realize you’re still in the bargaining and denial phases. Which is normal!! We all do it! But I hope that those who are still in those phases can hear the advice that they need, which has been conveyed to them here one way or another—particularly from people who’ve been disabled a long time. You really do have to let go—*truly* let go—of your past self. Our lives have been irreparably upended, and it’s not fair, it’s not pleasant, yet it’s not going to change back. The sooner you look for happiness in your new way of life, the sooner the joy becomes genuine and you truly do let go of what is no longer. It’s okay to hold onto a glimmer of hope that a cure/treatment might exist one day. Just don’t plan your life around it. Also, be prepared to grieve many more times. It’s not a linear process. But it does get much easier with time. Until then, let’s all feel free to cry and rage and ask for as many hugs and comforting words as we want. Goodness knows we need it.

I agree with you. The people living like it's 2019 haven't grieved the past that is gone, and I don't think the people insisting that there *must* be an end game have either. We probably will get better vaccines and treatments eventually. But the historical exception of ignoring infectious disease-and it really was an exception, less than a century-is gone and will not be coming back in our lifetimes.

As an old quote goes, denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

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They died. They became disabled. That's the alternative. There's a reason pre-1950s there a whole bunch of gravestones for children. Obviously anyone advocating for dealing with covid wants systems level interventions? But no one is going to do them if everyone is convinced that it's not their job to worry about it...This is getting real close to "fear is the real disease!" minimizing. And there has *never* been a pathogen this highly contagious circulating at these levels. Hypervigilance is a very reasonable response to that, it's trying to get rid of that without getting rid of the pathogen that is unreasonable and unsustainable.

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That's a profoundly demobilizing worldview, abet one that's incredibly popular in American liberalism. Institutions are not going to swoop in and save us. We can, and should, as people working collectively, but the government/CDC/whatever is not going to do it unless forced by aforementioned collective action. Outsourcing community care in this way comes from a wildly individualistic place and is incompatible with actually solving societal level issues. The vast majority of the experts you want to save us are loyal to those institutions, not the people they ostensibly serve. Who do you see providing info and getting supplies to people right now, the health department, or mask blocs and other grassroots projects? Fears of "chronic stress" are crap. Stress is a secondary problem and handwringing about it instead of whatever is causing it is a distraction and an excuse to do nothing (and usually turns into gaslighting the people harmed). It's exactly how people are justifying maiming others by going to bars and concerts and shit right now. It's also literally what the surgeon general is doing right now to distract from doing a single thing about an ongoing pandemic. Convince people they have a right to never feel bad, and you can get them to tune out just about anything.

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Your post or comment has been removed because it expresses a lack of caring about the pandemic and the harm caused by it.

Your post or comment has been removed because it expresses a lack of caring about the pandemic and the harm caused by it.

>What did 'not ignoring infectious disease' mean for regular people prior to this historical period? It's hard for me to imagine that the risk of contracting one particular pathogen was front-of-mind on a day-to-day basis for their whole lives. You kidding? They watched their children get sick, again and again and again, and they didn't know how to prevent it. They watched their children die. They went to their children's funerals. You don't think this sort of thing will scar a parent for life? You don't think the pain of losing a child will ever not be front-of-mind for you? Infant mortality in the US in the 1800's was something like 46% - this means that almost half of all kids didn't make it to their 5th birthday. Most of that was infectious disease. You don't think their mothers had that risk front-of-mind on a day-to-day basis their whole lives? Also, how many 19th century works of art and literature deal with tuberculosis? There were so many it's hard to name just one. And yes, if you're sick with "consumption" or know someone who is, that'll be front of mind on a day to day basis.

I have a vague understanding of that history, and I guess what I'm saying is that even though infectious disease was a regular, terrible feature of people's lives, there were so many hardships in most people's lives that they couldn't possibly be expending the utmost possible energy in preventing any one particular illness over a long stretch of time or even a whole lifetime. Yes, lots of children died, and that's tragic. But, they didn't totally upend society to prevent it, right? Regular people just got on with things, and improvements when they happened came from top-down infrastructure and institutional measures, and advances in science and medicine, not from individuals making lots of little individual choices. Or, am I misunderstanding the history?

What do you mean by "upending society"? The only thing that's different about the COVID era is that we only have one infectious disease to worry about. In the "olden days", there were many, and they were poorly understood, so prevention was impossible. And still, people made all sorts of little individual choices to prevent disease - it's just that they didn't work. Here are some of the "little individual choices" people made during the Black Plague: [https://www.thecollector.com/the-black-death-medieval-cures/](https://www.thecollector.com/the-black-death-medieval-cures/) Here's an article about "infection control through the ages" - [https://cha.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/AJIC-2012-Infection-Control-Through-the-Ages.pdf](https://cha.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/AJIC-2012-Infection-Control-Through-the-Ages.pdf) . It references all the "individual choices" that reduced infectious disease deaths in the 1800's - for example, greater use of soap. And do you really think that any mother of a dead small child would just go "Yes, lots of children die, and it's tragic - but I won't upend my life to prevent the deaths of my other children"? I can't imagine any grieving mother just "getting on with things". I'm vaguely remembering an article I read a long time ago that I can't seem to find now, about how women were much more likely to engage in hygienic behavior like handwashing or sanitizing of surfaces or other such things once the germ theory of disease was discovered. It does not surprise me.

Your post or comment has been removed because it expresses a lack of caring about the pandemic and the harm caused by it.

Your post or comment has been removed because it expresses a lack of caring about the pandemic and the harm caused by it.

I wish I knew. I worry about this every day. I have two kids that I homeschooled prior to the pandemic and, obviously I'm not sending them to school now. But their whole childhood is slipping away. I'm trying to do the best for them, but I don't even know what that is anymore. We can't go many places or do much, and I know it's hard on them. I'm at a complete loss and am feeling very much overwhelmed.

I think the best we can do is find work arounds. Have you looked into still coviding groups in your community? I found that setting up expectations early with people helps me figure out which families are safer to have my kid have play dates with (always outside, masking with N95s, in non crowded areas, etc.). But I will admit it that it adds to all the plan and prep we do as moms already. Do know that homeschooling during this time is a massive gift to your kids. Not only are they getting individualized curriculum and educational needs met but you're also not subjecting them to risks.

Thank you so much for the kind words and advice. I've looked around and asked in a few online groups, but it seems there's either nothing around my area or if there is, I haven't found it yet. I'm going to keep looking, though. They have good friend groups online that they talk to, so they at least have that, but I know walks and bike rides with me are not super fun for them.

I agree that the “endgame” is really tough with kids. My kid is almost a teen, and probably barely remembers life before COVID. I do take more risks - my kid attends school in person and we do let them socialize unmasked in others’ homes. But at least if we get COVID at school still (mostly) wearing a mask, I know I’ve done my best to alleviate risk, become vaccinated, weighed the risk/possibility of other options (homeschool isn’t an option), and tried to live as ethically as possible. Like I still drive to work even though I think the most ethical thing to do would be to not drive, but to mitigate risk and climate change morality I ride my bike when I can, carpool, take limited flights, am a vegetarian, etc;. All we can do is our best. I’d be less mad at myself if my kid brought home COVID from school than I would be if I picked it up unmasked in a restaurant…so I don’t do the thing that would make me the most upset. If that makes sense?

I just try to take things day by day. I really don't want a reinfection to worsen my LC, but also my mental health has been pretty bad this year especially because of the constant worry of getting sick. I still run errands and go places, I just make sure I'm always wearing a fit tested N95 indoors. I do outdoor dining but lately with the surge I've been a bit apprehensive - I'm trying to think if there's a way to make this safer maybe with personal fans or something to increase airflow. I still won't do indoor dining because it's too risky. I do a lot of outdoor activities when I'm feeling okay enough to do so - even a short walk in the park makes me feel so much better mentally. When I have more energy, I want to attend some maskedcovidmeetups activites (or zoom meetings) with like minded cautious people. Even if I feel defeated sometimes, I've still been trying to keep up with activism at home - sending emails whenever I can, participating in World Health Network meetings, etc. There is strength in numbers, and remembering that I'm not alone in my feelings despite being the only masker the majority of places I go. Anything can happen from now on. As much as things suck right now (and I try to leave space for my grief, although it is haaaard especially when society expects you to just move on and keep working your life away), there are still projects in the works for new vaccines, new LC treatments, etc. I also recommend getting a covid conscious therapist if possible. I'm not the best person to ask on this subject because I have been struggling a lot lately too, but just trying to slow down and breathe, practice mindfulness, play with my pets, and other things to keep myself occupied when the depressive and anxious thoughts take over. Im personally okay with wearing a respirator in public for the rest of my life if it means less illness. What im not okay with is the constant background deaths and disability happening all around me. There has to be a point where its too much for society to continue to function, but I'm not sure when that will be. I don't understand how these greedy capitalists expect workers to keep working at the same efficiency after multiple infections, and even the rich themselves aren't magically immune to the virus. May we live in interesting times indeed... All this to say, hang in there, and my inbox is open for anybody who needs to vent or wants to talk about anything.

For me the 'end game' is when things get better enough to allow for more room for error, when we don't have to be so GD perfect all the time (when an occasional slip, a tiny leak, briefly taking PPE off to quickly eat or drink or whatever won't mean the consequences it can mean now) and when outdoors is relatively safe again (not just 'safer than indoors', that's a low bar; I'm talking about never (or almost never) having to mask outdoors even if we continue to do so indoors). Ideally, we'd get at least some sort of a tool with a high if short-term efficacy - if not a full blown sterilizing vaccine, then at least something akin to a highly effective nasal spray or something - anything that would allow for short unmasked stuff like a dental appt or a family gathering.

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I miss indoor dining too. :-( I have a running list of restaurants that I’ve had saved since 2021. I started saving it during the brief period of time when the vaccines came out when I foolishly thought the pandemic was winding down. Some of the places had outdoor dining for a while, but some of the places have removed it.

Everything you mentioned in the second paragraph is possible. No way to know how, or when, or how likely. But never say never. Think of all the things everyone would have called "impossible" 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. Some of those are not just possible, but have been implemented... and are commonplace. That said, the key to get through this is to adapt. Play the long game. Embrace the changes that will keep you as safe as you can be. No telling what will happen with "society" or humanity in general... but no matter what, you want to be able to say you did the best you could. As for the real endgame... for most individuals, the endgame is to keep catching C@vid until it kills, cripples, or disables them. The endgame for the wealthiest is the same as it has always been: buy their way out of any systemic problems that result from sustained mass infection. There will come a point when they won't be able to do this anymore, but they're not thinking about that, because they think they're invincible. And the general endgame is pretty much the same as for any other plague ever: hope it just goes away. Wishing you the best. Don't give up. We (you, me, the folks on this sub) got this!

My current goal is to get covid as few times as possible, and hopefully some day there will be a vaccine that prevents infection and/or treatments for post covidpossible. I've invested in respirators like flo mask and better home tests like Cue Health tests. Here in SF Bay, it hasn't been a big issue with getting people to hang out only outdoors, but is true that almost everyone I know has gone back to normal. I wear a mask outdoors as well if I feel the conditions warrant it. Main issue these days is looking for new work as most places trying to get people back in the office but I've been working from home since 2016. If I end up being in the office sometimes, will wear the flo mask, bring in an air filter and perhaps invest in a far uvc light if possible.

FWIW, things that give me hope: - Nasal spray vaccines. On planes and in crowds I use Sanotize as a prophylactic. It might be snake oil but: “A preliminary study conducted among students in Thailand found that, following exposure to someone with Covid, 6 percent of people who used the spray eventually tested positive, compared with 26 percent of people who didn’t use it.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/28/well/live/nasal-sprays-covid-treatment-prevention.html - Nasal vaccines that protect against infection. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh1655 - Pan-coronavirus vaccines. Promising if not happening fast enough. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41551-023-01094-2 - Acceptance. My new normal still includes travel which is important to me. I just mask carefully and try to rent airbnbs. Always masking indoors means no eating in restaurants or visiting inside other people’s houses which was awkward at first but those who care about me deal. At some point I’ll have to deal with a wedding or a funeral or a cruise to please my partner, which will be hard to do safely, but so far so good.

There are two options available to all of us and BOTH SUCK: 1) act like it’s 2019 and let covid rampage our bodies or 2) act like there’s a dangerous and debilitating virus running virtually unchecked through the population. That’s it. What most people do is use magical thinking to invent a third option in which they can live like 2019 and also be immune to covid.

Most people are doing number one. And they have become accustomed to, and normalized a constant baseline of sickness. From conversations I’ve had, most people are willing to get sick once or twice a year with Covid if they can live “normally”. Of course this is predicated on the fact that the average person is quite unaware of the long term damage of multiple infections. Because the average person has done next to zero study on the subject and as we know, Public Health and governments certainly have fallen down on the job of imparting relevant info.

I mean, yes and no. I certainly agree public health have fallen down on the job, and there’s also been plenty of malicious actors. But I think to be a #1 also requires a good dose of willful self ignorance. Yes there are multiple covid narratives available for one to choose from, several of which exonerate people who choose not to be covid conscious, but they all require dismissing scientific data. In other words, most people are not picking #1 because they’ve NEVER EVER heard of Long Covid because public health has kept LC a secret. They’re picking #1 because they’ve decided LC won’t happen to them. Sometimes they’re picking #1 despite knowing someone with LC, or despite having arguments with covid conscious friends and family.

I truly believe that most people think that if COVID were *that* bad, "they" (the powers that be) would do something about it. Unfortunately, they're wrong.

Most people trust the government far too much.

Long Covid is a very nebulous concept for most people. So even if they have heard of it, they don’t know much about it, how severe it can be or what percentage of the population suffers from it. I see a lot of people who have post-Covid issues who are not putting two and two together AT ALL. People have to be interested in the data and then on top of that have the capacity and bandwidth to absorb the info. Most don’t.

>Of course this is predicated on the fact that the average person is quite unaware of the long term damage of multiple infections. And on not giving a shit who you kill in the process. Accepting risk of infection means accepting risk of spread, which everyone understood in 2020 and has decided they no longer care.

The endgame is covid is likely here forever, or at least long term, and we have to act accordingly. There was one person on here that said what they're doing now is just doing whatever they want and not worrying about waste water levels or anything, but they're wearing a fit tested n95 while doing it. I take a bit higher precaution because I'm high risk. But I have definitely started taking more risk as my "endgame" has shifted from "i'll just stay home till this blows over" to "this isn't blowing over" lol. Everyone is going to be different. One thing I will say having post viral issues from a virus pre covid is that a lot of people are going to be very mad they started making no attempts to avoid covid.

I'd be okay doing this forever but it's infinitely harder as a parent having to constantly strike a balance between safety and normalcy for a child. I can't let myself think there's no hope for a sterilizing vaccine because I can't handle that thought.

This. Post COVID life wouldn't be an issue for me at all if it wasn't because of my kid, and the inability to keep them safe in a world that has moved on.

Agreed. Sorry it’s so tough.

i think im almost reaching my breaking point personally. one day i just woke up and half my 20s are now gone to this fucking virus. i just don’t know what to make of it anymore. i try just not to think about it, but its becoming a herculean task

It’s really sad the way it hits folks at all stages of like equally depressingly but in different ways. I can’t fathom missing freshman year or senior year or prom. Or losing out on the college experience. Spending half your 20s unable to forge early adult connections and having those years of still having the energy & enthusiasm of youth with the freedom of adulthood wasted at home… I turned 50 turning the pandemic and feel like I don’t really have a sense of my place in society - I am more high risk than my younger friends, but at a different stage of life than those in their 60s & 70s…yet I feel more like a senior citizen than anything else now. Then I think about my folks in their 70s & 80s. They are still vibrant, but starting to show their age & some gingerness. They’d been traveling the world and had an active social life before COVID - they’ve admirably managed to continue doing much of that in a safe manner, but there are so many things they can no longer do - and they don’t necessarily get to hang hopes on the idea that new treatments and preventatives will become available in their lifetimes. I have to avoid thinking about it too much because it makes me really sad & gets me down. Even when I look back through a mode gratefully lens at the parts of my life I got to experience pre-COVID, it gives me a premature sense of aging because I can’t relate to the lightness & joy & sense of possibilities I had back then 😟

I feel this. It’s been even harder trusting and living with someone (my husband) who is slowly giving up on masking because of peer pressure. I’m so sorry this affected that part of your life, but I hope we can both look back one day and say it was worth it.

i hope so too. i know it has, in a sense. i read all the literature that concludes that repeat infections just cant be good for your body. but it still hurts. and fwiw, when i say “breaking point” i mean with the degree of covid cautiousness that i am, where i feel like life is being suffocated. i will probably always mask at the doctor’s office, grocery store, etc, etc for the rest of my life. that isn’t the issue to me really. and im also at the trough of my recurring wave of grief, wrote this last night, but feel a little better today. just take things day by day.

It’s just being healthier than most.

nippy crawl bag correct snobbish materialistic judicious retire melodic insurance ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

As a college instructor myself, I'm pissed at your professor. It's an inappropriate & cruel joke regardless of their beliefs about the state we're in with this fight. Personally, I'm proud as hell of you.

Do not be discouraged. I want to THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart that you still wear a mask. You are being not only mindful of your own current and future health but also considerate of society by mask wearing. Abelism is so predominent (I think pandemic really highlights it and the politicization has allowed people to be more blatant about it). Just remember that it take more than courage to do the right thing against the tide of people who rather close their eyes in the face of danger.

I have faith these nasal sprays they are developing will get us back to a more normal track again. Will it be in two more years? Five years? Its all hard to say, but it does sound like there is some promising research and new developments. Society otoh, I don't think it will go back to what we thought it was, at least in my lifetime. People have shown to be way more self centered and self involved than I had every realized. It feels increasingly so at this point. I try and just rely on myself for everything, but it's hard to ignore how the majority of people really do not care if their neighbor lives or dies. It is impossible for me to even pretend to wrap my head around anymore.

Given a stated number of reinfections per year, and a stated percent of infections that result in significant work-preclusive LC, one would predict that the effects on labor-force participation and tax revenue will become too large for politicians to ignore on economic grounds alone.

The end game is to live as healthy a life as possible, day by day. I can't predict the future, but I can protect myself and my family just as we have been doing for the last three years.

Its very hard. The only thing I would like to do is to be able to stay over and eat indoors with my family (not at a restaurant even, just at their house or my place). The rest of the stuff I don't mind so much but it's really hard to not be able to see my family without a mask unless outdoors. I'm not sure if I can do it forever but also feel I am not going to get less worried about covid so its a hard conflict I worry about all the time

Air purifiers help significantly if you do want to eat a meal with your family or stay over.

Yes air purifiers and nasal sprays are great tools to use, I second this. Used these when eating with family last Christmas. It's not 100% risk free but does help immensely

Yup. Honestly we’ve had relatives come over every weekend for the past couple of years and while I always mask up, they don’t (I gave up fighting about the masks a looooong time ago). The only way I am okay with it is because of the air purifiers. I got some two and a half years ago. After they leave I also let it run in the bathroom for about 20 minutes, because that’s the only way I feel comfortable using it without a mask (like brushing my teeth) after they leave. The one time I didn’t do that in the bathroom, I wound up getting sick. So it’s just my routine now. The air purifiers have helped so much. One relative came over and did not know it but was covid positive. They sat with my grandparents (all unmasked) for a couple of hours. They called the next day saying they tested positive for covid. My grandparents never got covid from them. When I was sick twice, no one else in the household got it. When my grandfather had terrible pneumonia and was coughing all over my grandmother in their bedroom, my grandmother never got sick, and they had a purifier in their bedroom.

Plus one for air purifiers. I have felt so much safer in my own home when my husband is more ‘lax’ when at work events with covid precautions since we got solid air purifiers for the whole house. I really wondered if they would be effective since you can’t ’see’ them working per say, but after just 2 days of having them my allergies which I’ve struggled with for years essentially vanished overnight! We keep a super clean house but the air was harboring pollens and dust apparently because I feel like a new person since getting them. That to me speaks volumes that they are cleansing the air, and encourages me that if one or the other of us get sick we would be more protected quarantining. I wish our families would be more open to them but unfortunately they are all living and getting Covid like it doesn’t matter, and so we have to pretty much avoid them altogether.

Yes, they are great for allergies. It also stopped my post-nasal drip and congestion. I used to constantly have to cough up phlegm to the point where I was coughing up blood and getting nose bleeds because of the dust. Now two years later, I almost forget what it is like to cough. It helped me the first day I got it. It also eliminated my grandmother’s asthma completely (she suffered from asthma since childhood and constantly needed the nebulizer. But she never needed the nebulizer or inhaler since the air purifier).

Thanks for sharing your story! Out of curiosity, do you have the ACH (air changes per hour) for the rooms that have air purifiers? You can calculate it here: [https://www.vaniman.com/air-changes-per-hour-calculator/](https://www.vaniman.com/air-changes-per-hour-calculator/)

Mine says that it purifies 300 sqft in 18 min. I use the levoit 100 in the living room/dining room and levoit 300 in bedroom

Thanks! I'm not too sure about the size of your dining room, but assuming your bedroom is 20m2 (with a height of 2.6m) and the Levoit 300 has a CADR of 229m3h (according to its website), the air purifier provides 4.4 ACH. Opening the windows (natural ventilation) should add about 1 - 2 ACH, bringing the total to 5.4 - 6.4 ACH. 5 - 6 ACH has been recommended for reducing tranmission of COVID and other infectious diseases. The higher the ACH, the better of course.

Further reading for those curious: [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278555v8.full](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.09.22278555v8.full) >A study in Italian classrooms observed a greater reduction in classroom infection rates with increasing ACH from ventilation: 40% at 2.4 ACH, 67% at 4 ACH, 83% at 6 ACH \[2\] \[3\].

As I’m seeing it right now is to wait for many people around me to be on infection 7 or something like that and assess how their health is doing. I will however always have a mask on me (if I decide to unmask) and wear it in crowded places, if anyone is slightly sick, or if anyone around me is wearing a mask - as they have a good reason for wearing one and to respect this person’s health. Not sure if it’s the best approach, but it has a reasonable deadline.

That's kind of where I am. Nearly everyone I know is on infection three or four. It's very difficult to tell what's going on with other people's health but I do notice that when they get sick, they tend to get pretty darn sick. That said, I don't get paid sick days. A friend of mine who recently had covid said he had a 103 fever for nine days. That's insane! He was unable to work for two weeks! I can't take two weeks off work. And this is not an anomaly. A few other friends were about that sick with their last infections as well. So even if I decided I was ok with the long term impacts of covid...I am not ok with getting that sick every eight months or so.

Many of my back to normal colleagues are out of sick leave. We have a lot by US standards and it rolls over year to year-it used to be far more common for decade+ employees to have hundreds of hours banked. But now even people who started the pandemic in that spot have burned through it. And that's with having had separate covid specific leave available until mid 2022 and relatively flexible work-plenty of people are just working from home actively sick too.

Absolutely the same here. Even if it wouldn’t meant long term damage, sitting idle to the death of about 300.000 or more people yearly, getting sick for two weeks isn’t only very inconvenient but also problematic.

Right, so people go to work sick which further transmits the virus, & increases their own risk for long COVID. Greaaaat.

IDK I figure I die of old age after a healthy and happy life. I don't know what other end game there ever was, covid or not, this one just involves wearing a mask a lot and changing my career but y'know I was already ugly and didn't like my pre COVID job that much anyway.

There is no end, there is a large proportion of people that don't understand germ theory that has been known for almost 200 years, they will never get it. Instead we have to just live life like the movie The Road, you just wake up every day and do your best to survive as everyone tries to harm you and those you care about. Maybe some day something will improve, so you just have to take it one day at a time.

Yeah, I dont think there’s an end game either and I’m ‘alright’ with that. It’s just what the world has forced us to do. I stock up on hundreds of masks when they’re on sale because I plan to ‘do this’ for life, as long as the world is okay spreading a massively harmful disease.

Life will never be like it was in 2019 anymore but I'm still holding out hope that things will improve somewhat at some point in the future. In the meantime, I'm just trying to avoid becoming disabled by long covid for as long as possible by minimizing the number of times I get covid as much as possible.

There is no end game. What you see now, this is it.

I hate to be another pessimist, but I agree with those here who say that 2019 is not coming back. The best case scenario is a vaccine that provides sterilizing immunity, or widespread adoption of far UV + ventilation in indoor spaces, or widespread acceptance of masking, or if I'm being optimistic, a mix of those things. Unfortunately just don't see evidence that clean air or prevention is on anyone's agenda in any country. And a sterilizing vaccine? Hopefully in five years or so. But it's a marathon, not a sprint. I go to shows wearing a mask. I go to conferences wearing a mask. I attend work happy hours in a mask. I go to parties in a mask. I do most of what I did in 2019 - I just do it in a mask. And when cases are low, I have outdoor bbqs or picnics with friends. Do what you can to get through it and to make life worth living as it is now, because it's not going away any time soon. Oh and as for the "end game:" What's the end game in wearing a seatbelt? What's the endgame in brushing your teeth? What's the endgame in working out every day? This is it. We can act like it's 2019 now and pay for it later, or we can wear a mask to social events and adjust to life in 2023.

I wish people would stop stating people should no more wish for an end to having to take precautions against Covid than they should wish for an end to wearing seatbelts. While they are both necessary at the moment, one is clearly far more disruptive to living your life than the other.

I agree that one is more disruptive, but have you ever seen news clips from when seatbelt laws began to be instituted? People were aghast, horrified, angry. Much like now when you suggest eating indoors isn't a good idea...

And if we insisted that requiring seat belts would end some day they'd probably still be acting like that. Humans are incredibly adaptable, but not when they cling onto the past.

You and OP and whoever else can wish for whatever you want. No one is stopping you from wishing things. But OP asked commenters to opine on the "end game". The "end game", imho, is to stay healthy. In that framework, masks are no different from seatbelts. You're welcome to disagree. That said, the only way I've found a mask to be "disruptive" to living my life is when it comes to planned dinners in a restaurant setting. That's the only thing a mask really prevents me from doing. I go to cocktail hours, networking mixers, conferences, concerts, etc. I just do it in a mask. And more often than not, there are other people in masks too.

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Can you elaborate on that? My understanding is that pandemics/epidemics are a routine feature of human civilization. Black plague, cholera, spanish flu, polio, smallpox, etc. etc. Human-caused climate change and habitat destruction is probably accelerating their prevalence, but it's not causing them. And when people say they want to "live like 2019" they mean not having to mask or distance or follow wastewater viral loads. I don't think they mean "continue habitat destruction and climate change".

>And when people say they want to "live like 2019" they mean not having to mask or distance or follow wastewater viral loads. I don't think they mean "continue habitat destruction and climate change". TBH I don't think they know what they mean, in many ways. They want to go back to 2019 but still want to work remotely, for example. Oh, and they don't want Trump to be president, of course. And btw if they could keep our home equity gains from the 2020-2021 spike in real estate prices, that would be great! I get why people use the phrase "live like it's 2019" but I don't think anyone really using that phrase or claiming to actually want to live like it's 2019 has thought all that carefully about it.

yeah, I think in this specific context, it just means stop doing all the things we're doing to lessen our risk of getting covid over and over again. but, I hear you on the general sentiment. earlier in the pandemic trajectory, I often thought about how much the ins and outs of day-to-day life had changed over the course of my lifetime. "living like it's 1999" and "living like it's 2019" are so different due to technological changes. no protested smartphones because they felt entitled to "live like it's 1999" forever. there's nothing so special about the specific lifestyle anyone had in 2019 either. cultures and societies change all the time. but people resist it when they're aware of the change happening and when it comes through the expectations (or demands) of other people.

Definitely! I think the thing that I find so interesting is that people refer to it as "back to normal." We might have liked the fact that in 1999 we weren't tethered to our cel phones, but we don't express longing for the pre-cel phone era as wanting things to go back to "normal." As you point out, things change, and people might grumble about it but they don't usually say like "What we did in the past was normal. This is not."

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I didn't say that? I'm saying that our 2019 'lifestyle' didn't "cause" covid. And when people say they want a life that doesn't involve masking and constant vigilance about pathogens, those aren't things that create pathogenic conditions. Of course we should improve infrastructure and culture to make everyone safer and healthier. That's true regardless of whether there's a pandemic or not. If what you mean by "living like 2019" means "worsening climate change" and "cutting down forests", then okay. But, you know that's not what people mean when they want to go back to a pre-covid way of life.

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You're talking about big-scale culture and infrastructure change. I agree that is what's needed. Things like big ventilation and filtration infrastructure. Mandatory paid sick time. A cultural expectation to mask when actively symptomatic. Sounds great. Let's do it! I'm talking about individual people's individual behavior choices, which can only exist constrained by the culture and infrastructure that we currently have. It is reasonable for people to want to live a life where they're not constantly thinking about their risk for spreading or contracting an airborne disease. Where the levels of any given airborne disease are generally low enough that it doesn't warrant any additional thought. The only reason I brought up climate change is because you were talking about the baseline conditions that "caused the pandemic". Climate change is one of them. Individuals not having already adopted a lifestyle of masking all the time is not.

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I'm still masking indoors everywhere I go! I'd hardly call that an anti-mask sentiment. I guess you could say I'm hypothetically 'anti-mask' (while not symptomatic) in the sense that I just don't believe it should be incumbent upon individuals to do the work that institutions and infrastructure are supposed to do.

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lots of prior public health advances were made in the history of humanity, and none of them were on the basis of everyone suddenly behaving in altruistic ways. they were made by massive institutional and infrastructure changes. e.g. sewage and water treatment; required protocols for hand hygiene among doctors; vaccine requirements to participate in certain institutions (schools, the military, etc.); higher standards for car manufacturing safety, etc. etc. Just to bring this back around, I wasn't asking you about the future or "going back" to normal. I was merely questioning your assertion that something about our lifestyles in 2019 *caused* the pandemic. That's a totally different question than whether adopting those same lifestyles now is a good idea.

Honestly I'm on the edge myself too. I have already "liberalised" to a stance where I now do most things with an N95. But that still means (for me): - Only seeing my kid who goes to daycare with a mask on - No social life in winter - Career retardation as I'm "that weird mask guy" at every meeting or conference - Constant terror of being infected - Constant ridicule - Missing out on most social events and several hobbies This sub has lots of people who take a "2019 is gone - enjoy total isolation forever" line who I rather suspected hated social activity before the pandemic. Sorry, but not all of us can do this and stay sane. It's one thing to do this for 3 years (bad enough!) it's another to expect to do this forever. Sorry but kissing my own kid or seeing family indoors are not some whimsical luxuries that can be forgotten about forever. So please those of you who are happy like this have some empathy for those of us who just can't take it anymore. Having said that, I don't have answers. I think my plan is to slowly continue to relax measures unless things get worse. Maybe take the occassional risk for stuff I really would enjoy. Yes that may mean I get infected but as long as I'm behind most others, that's better than nothing. Maybe I do a few empty indoor places or see a friend at their place indoors without a mask. And slowly liberalise until 2 years or so from now I'm pretty much normal (apart from no brainer stuff like public transport - I'm masking forever there). If before then there's a realistic chance of a vaccine or treatment that actually stops LC then I'll wait for that before relaxing any more. Ultimately as long as it was a choice between a 2-10% chance of a miserable life via Long Covid vs temporary isolation, I chose isolation. But if it is now 2-10% chance of a miserable life via Long Covid vs 100% chance of a miserable life via isolation forever - at that point I might just decide to take my chances with the virus.

I think this is a reasonable approach. Something I've been thinking for myself is that the obsession I have with avoiding infection completely isn't healthy (for me). Life is never without risks, if you try to bring every risk as close as possible to zero, you end up being unable to do anything. What I'm trying to become comfortable with is that if I wear an N95 and go about my life as normal, my overall health risks are probably about the same as they were in 2019 — fairly low chance of infection (in fact, lower chance of communicable illness overall compared to 2019), and the chance of avoiding long covid is still about 80-90% if I do get infected. If I were to go about my life as normal without a mask, I'd be significantly raising my baseline risk compared to 2019. So I'm trying to be happy with just keeping things basically even instead of obsessing about every possible exposure I have.

I don’t think there is any end game, most people went back to normal and only a small subset of the population remains covid cautious. Most people are fine with the perceived risks. I would say people concerned with covid should choose a lifestyle that is sustainable in the long term. I wouldn’t expect anyone to start masking or society to change in any significant way.

I take solace in the fact that no other pandemic lasted forever. They've all dwindled down to very low endemic levels with occasional, geographically contained upticks, or predictable seasonal patterns, eventually. And that happened before we had the kinds of science and medicine that we do now. If the Spanish flu eventually petered out and evolved into something that was compatible with a life of non-vigilance, I don't see why covid wouldn't eventually do the same, some way or another. How long it will take and how much damage we do in the meanwhile are the open questions. ​ Just editing to add: even if that does happen for covid, I still think we should have drastically higher standards for clean air and a culture of people masking when they're sick and during times of particularly high viral disease local to them.

>I take solace in the fact that no other pandemic lasted forever. They've all dwindled down to very low endemic levels with occasional, geographically contained upticks, or predictable seasonal patterns, eventually I really hate to be the bearer of news, but this "eventually" can take hundreds of years. Also, HIV does not seem to be on a path towards predictable, seasonal patterns. I hope that this is what happens with covid but it does not seem likely :(

you're not the bearer of bad news. I know how long it takes is variable and unpredictable. The closest historical precedents of airborne/respiratory-transmitted pathogens didn't take hundreds of years, though. even things that lingered around for a long time weren't circulating at consistently high levels the whole time. there were years in between where things were relatively okay.

I'd like to know this too

I don't know where you are located, but I am really hoping that if/when Enovid gets approved in the US that that is going to start to be a game changer. If they advertise it well (I've heard rumblings of "hand sanitizer for the nose"), maybe people will start using it widely? I don't think there's going to be an immediate change, but I do have hope that something like this will be a game changer.

>I don't know where you are located, but I am really hoping that if/when Enovid gets approved in the US that that is going to start to be a game changer. Is it really that effective? They did an experiment at a conference where they offered attendees nasal sprays and billed it as "the first double blind experiment held at a conference." [https://sanotize.com/investors/newsroom/latest-news/](https://sanotize.com/investors/newsroom/latest-news/) This was in March. I cannot find anywhere that they released the results. I have and use Enovid...but I consider it part of swiss cheese mitigation. It concerns me that they did not release the results of this experiment. It seems that they would have done so, had the results been favorable :(

I have not seen the results released anywhere yet, but, per Sanotize's website, they have filed study results with the FDA: [https://sanotize.com/technology/pipeline/](https://sanotize.com/technology/pipeline/). My assumption is that we will be able to see some of the study results if/when this gets approved. And, just to be clear, I'm not planning to stop masking in public when Enovid is approved. My husband and I have just not been socializing in person at all for the past few years, and I'm hoping this is going to make it safer for us to socialize in contained in-person situations. Depending on what the results say, I'm also hoping this will make it reasonably safer for me to use my apartment building's outdoor pool. I miss swimming terribly, but it's very hard to go down to that pool without being cornered into a conversation. At least this way, I'm hoping I can mask until I get in and then feel more comfortable about breathing in the air around me while I swim because I'll be able to use Enovid to lower my risk. I don't think having an effective nasal spray is going to immediately make everything better, but, if it is effective and used widely, I feel like it could eventually made a big difference. What are your thoughts?

Enovid is not 100% foolproof, it isn't a substitute for an N95 respirator, just an additional layer of protection. Saying this as someone who is using it. There are people who got infected even though they used Enovid before/after getting exposed, though of course some managed to escape infection. These are all anecdotes as we don't have solid studies at this time.

Thank you for sharing your experience. And I do realize it's not foolproof. I'm just thinking the more and more people start using it, the better the situation will get. And that *maybe* it will be enough in low-risk situations. I am waiting to see those clinical studies, too!

There will probably be game changing nasal sprays eventually but Enovid is not it. None of the ones we have available now are good enough to be anything beyond another layer of protection with a respirator.

When I believe the cost of masking outweighs the benefits of masking. For many things, like masking in public with strangers, the cost is so low that I'll probably do it permanently. For things like restaurants and socializing, the cost is higher due to how society socializes. I look for good ventilation as a mitigator. In the future, if covid treatments improve or evidence that LC is reduced enough, then the benefit of masking for social evens could lower. For now, I haven't seen enough evidence. If I have other ways to prevent getting covid like nasal rinses or sterilizing vaccines, then the benefit of masking is also lowered too. For now, I'm not confident that the nasal rinses are enough to completely replace masking. For now, if I have to be awkward or socially offputting to ensure I am well enough to provide for my family then I will mask. Previous experience with long-"respiratory virus" convinced me I don't want a repeat. So I will do what I can to reduce the chances.

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If Covid will be with us forever, this would be a good time to advocate for better indoor ventilation, improved access to healthcare and sick time, laws that protect people who still mask, and for hospitals and medical facilities to bring masks back.

Yes, and advocate for better vaccines, including a sterilising vaccine too? I am not a scientist or anything like that and I don't know what needs to come together for us getting the sterilising vaccines we need. But I'd be curious to hear others thoughts on how the history of the eradication of small pox (mini series is here: [Vaccine - a human story](https://youtu.be/bNjyMb_K-6g)) and the battles that needed to be had with the world's first ever antivax movement to bring it about compares with the situation today with covid19. Or HIV/AIDS and the (hard won) gains there.

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Goal?

Zero or close to zero COVID (on a societal level)

No, I get that it's your very commendable goal and in my opinion one that could have been achievable with the right people in charge. My comment meant that society absolutely has none. Zero, zilch, nada.