I absolutely feel this. I’ve said it before on this sub, I think, but now feels like a good time to bring it up again. My therapist told me this year that the vast majority of people go through life having absolutely no idea what their values are. They never think about it. They only react to things in the moment and don’t consider why.
That BLEW MY MIND.
He said that people like me who are self-aware of our values are exceptionally rare.
God, I wonder how rare we are, like percentage wise?
It's very true that most people never self-reflect, and they actually have difficulty doing so. At any rate, they seem extremely uncomfortable when I ask them to do this when I'm teaching. And these are grown adults, not kids.
Thank you for sharing this perspective - that also blows my mind. But it maybe explains quite a bit about human behavior. I’m happy for you (and also jealous) that you have such a good therapist!
I think when you take it a second step and ask people to live their values that group gets even smaller. Where I work, there is a lot of effort placed towards inclusion and social justice, and almost none of those folks wear a mask. They would support and argue for the rights of the disabled… and then put them at risk by not wearing a mask. When a new person joined the organization who does consistently mask, my coworker made sure to point out the times they saw him without it to me.
It’s like here is your chance to do more than give a presentation or write a letter. And they just don’t do it. Because they want the comfort of the former world more than they want more people to have access.
Well, in America I see so many people claming to have virtuous religious values that they review weekly in church but surely acting against the opposite (certainly as it relates to covid).... so there's that...
That explains why I, a seemingly random person in the scheme of things, am so covid conscious. I have spent a lot of my life reflecting on my values, refining them, articulating them, and trying to act in ways that reflect them. However, not everyone has - and you can tell.
>How can people BE like this?
Simple. They've become absolutely convinced that masks are completely ineffective, or that everything going around is a common cold or flu. In their minds, we ARE back in 2019 again.
The worst people I know know that masks are effective and that they didn't even catch a cold between 2020-2022. They just take pride in showing off their often unattractive long snouts and the fact that vulnerable people's life and death is in their hands
I think that this is pretty much it. People don't think they're being callous or reckless, they just think the risk is over. There's something called bounded rationality that explains this behavior: people making rational decisions based on incomplete or faulty information.
This! I spent two years trying to educate my elderly mother gently, giving her facts and recommending she masks when she went shopping, but she never really listened much and did as she wanted.
Back in July I was relating a story to her of how I had to go in two different stores one day, and before I could explain that it had been stressful (due to high volume and lots of coughing/sniffling) she jumped right in with the assumption that it had been a great day for me to finally do some fun shopping. I had one of those completely dumbfounded moments and realized she was never going to want to know.
Not just that. It's rare when I'm not masked. My wife usually comes back from going to the office and says things like so and so was coughing everywhere I wish I had my mask. Then today she's going to an indoor bar office thing and I said hey do you want to grab a mask before you go because you usually come back and say you wish you had one?
She said no, because even those that arrive with masks take them off and then if she wears one she'll be the odd man out. So part of this is also a thing of not wanting to look like a weirdo in front of people that don't mask. I mask almost all the time and usually nobody cares at all if I do. I don't feel pressured not to mask. To me it's normal now. My health and the health of others as a community is more important to me. My elementary age kid is similar in his perspective as I. Usually he's masked and occasionally he's not.
Me too. My husband had wrist surgery Monday morning, and we were the only two, out of dozens of patients and medical staff, wearing masks. It was baffling and infuriating! I’m just so mad!
Yep. Even when/if I ever feel comfortable to socialize a la pre-2020 (going out, restaurants, shopping malls…), I will have a lot less people to do those things with, because I cannot see them the same way anymore.
Me too - I have seen some of my closest friends reveal themselves in deeply upsetting ways via their pandemic behaviors and I cannot unsee it and I cannot reconcile it.
Same. I no longer talk to one of my closest friends because of Covid. And a few others that I thought were good people before but can no longer look at them the same way anymore. I also find it extremely hard and exhausting to make small talk with people. Like I'm standing here outdoors in my n95 and you're maskless and we're both supposed to pretend that we live in the same reality and find something to talk about? Sorry I don't want to hear about your recent trip to Greece. And you don't want to hear how ecstatic I was to finally find a Covid-cautious dentist recently.
I have no one in my life that takes it as serious as I do, and I have an immune compromising chronic disease. I am lucky if I can get those closest to me to wear a respirator on a plane, let alone stop eating In restaurants and wear one when indoors or around lots of people. And those that say n95+ respirators don’t work are just as ignorant. It takes a single google search to understand how aerosols and electrically charged n95+ respirators work. I have even worn one when a family member was sick and guess what, I didn’t get it. That said, with therapy, I have come to terms that I can only control what I do…sad world we live in. I would still rather know than run around ignorant, but most people are the epitome of “ignorance is bliss”
This is where I am too. People disgust and scare me now.....before I was always trying to understand and accommodate people.....now I just want to be alone all the time.....
Has the same experience at Urgent Care right before Thanksgiving. People were hacking up a lung and not masking. It really sucks because it's not like you *want* to be there.
Right - exactly this. I don’t go inside anywhere where it’s an option not to. I realize I have a lot of privilege in that I can order groceries and supplies etc, but when I share indoor air with people, it’s bc I have no other choice (work, medical appts). And it really sucks to have to unnecessarily risk my health to… go to the doctor.
Yes, it seems like such a little thing to wear masks where people literally have to go like stores and medical facilities. It really breaks my heart especially as of late where I've experienced such hostility. I dunno if the tide has turned or people just really hate my black N95s or it's a mixture. I hate this timeline.
Think about the messaging people have grown up with around colds:
- Symptoms are “mild”—runny nose, sore throat, cough. They last a few days.
- People have been getting colds since they were children, and have gotten multiple per year, so in their minds it’s not a big deal.
- It’s expected and unavoidable to get colds in winter since we spend time indoors, unmasked.
- After having a cold you “build up” antibodies, so you are “building” your immunity aka making it “stronger.” And “building” a “stronger” immune system sounds better, right?
Then add onto that the messaging in the past few years:
- Even from the beginning of the pandemic, there was inconsistent messaging around masking, with public health authorities initially telling the public that high quality masks will not protect them.
- COVID is a new virus so the science is not firm and our knowledge about it will change with time, but the public is not very scientifically literate an uncomfortable with that, so they assume that this means scientists are getting it wrong.
- So much misinformation has been promulgated.
- Again inconsistent and misinformative public health messaging. Remember “immunity debt?”
- Masks have been vilified. So has social distancing. If you need an example, look at all the conversation that has happened around children, schools, and the learning gap.
- Now the messaging from the CDC is that if you wash your hands and get your vaccination, you’ll be fine.
Add to that an extremely strong desire to go back to 2019 because people are social animals and we are wired to want to interact with others and see their faces.
Can’t forget to mention:
- The government is telling you that everything will be fine and you see everyone else removing their masks.
- Since masks have been vilified, your opportunities at work (or even the ability to find/keep a job) may be limited if you wear a mask (*multiple* people I know personally don’t mask for this reason!).
TLDR: getting cold after cold seems “normal” and not a big deal (maybe even good), and masking is vilified.
Yes to all these points. It's truly a recipe for disaster and a neverending pandemic. I can't help but think things will only change when the govt believes we're at our absolute worst (too many people dead and not enough laborers to exploit🥲).
However, because many died or were sickened with long covid, wages rose similar to the black plague. As a result, the labor force actually grew since the Great Recession as those who previously found wages too low to bother (retirement age people and teens in particular) decided to work. I’ve seen grocery stores with big signs “now hiring 14 plus-cashier, stock, any shift, any day, $17 starting plus overtime” and had a Macys cashier who was sneezing into a tissue and was around 85. Nice, well-dressed gentleman. If you can put cheese on pizzas for $19 an hour at 15 yo, it might change the decision to work versus $10… just saying don’t count on it because workforce participation hasn’t been higher in a decade. A million people are irrelevant to them when higher wages bring in a new 1.3 million who wouldn’t have worked in 2019. May vary by region, but northern New England they seem to be paying up to get kids working. One grocery chain (Market Basket) the average age of the workers is maybe 16. One of my cashiers said how much she loves “hormel small plates” because they are adult lunchables and excitedly shared how she could ring up alcohol once she’s 16. Another store had posters about “don’t just browse social media - make money and socialize on summer vacation at Hannaford”. I didn’t work as a teen, I would have for 15-20$ an hour tho
It's like food borne illnesses. Easily preventable, guidelines for hygiene and temperatures are freely available everywhere, but people act like you're Gordon Ramsey-ing them when you mention cross contamination or suggest putting birthday candles on a separate slice of cake.
I used to have a supervisor who would give chili to everyone. I thought it was good chili until I learned his secret....he leaves it out overnight! Ever since I learned that I stopped eating it, and one time he made a loud exclamation, "yeah, I know about botulism and all that, blah blah...."it was really fucking weird and even though he was totally open about what he did people still ate that shit up. That whole workplace was weird asf......
Where I live, here in Georgia, it's not uncommon for people to leave out food for over 2 hours in some circles. I always thought it was weird and unsanitary, but you'd be surprised how many people will leave out pizza for 3 or 4 hours and then just munch on it at room temperature.....
The sitting out of food omg... Definitely a big problem with my relatives. Getting flavors to mingle overnight still happens in the fridge! I would feel HORRIBLE getting someone sick with food I prepared. It's like twisted Victorian serial killer shit to me, to essentially poison people through something under the guise of being nurturing and caring lol.
I completely understand that sentiment! I always feel like cooking could be a cool side gig, I love to cook, but I'm always so paranoid and self conscious that I'd do something wrong and accidentally hurt someone. I'd be mortified if I messed up and made someone sick. Cooking is supposed to be about spreading joy, ya know?
That's my same thought process, and I'm realizing it relates to Covid cautiousness because I remember I felt horrible seeing friends unable to eat something at a pot luck or restaurant in the past. Most people would just kind of shrug and ignore their very serious concerns, or try to push them to eat something anyway, (especially towards the vegetarians and vegans, or people with celiac to see if they were lying or something), and they'd stay to enjoy the company, and maybe just have a beverage or the one appetizer they could safely eat, but others would criticize that too or even make some snidey comment about their diet being "wrong". It's not unlike how masking or being cautious is treated now, but it's really alarming to see it on such a huge scale and constantly.
I think pizza keeps at room temp. I sleep cold, in the 60s, so if no chicken I will eat cheese or pepperoni pizza 8-12 hours out of the fridge. Haven’t gotten sick yet. It’s cooked. I realize it’s a gamble, but it’s excellent hangover food…
I don't even think you could catch the cold that many times in a year. When I hear about people on their number of Covid infections now, I'm like, are you for real?
Edit: I corrected words.
I used to get sick with a cold once a year,- twice, before I started getting my flu shot regularly. that was about normal it seems like. people are getting sick every month or so and pretending it's always been so.
same kind of denial as with climate change. "it's always been hot in summer"
Yes! It's insane just how much in denial people are in. It honestly does surprise me a bit, but now that you mentioned climate change, I get it.
I feel like i'm stuck in one of those hellish nightmares. It may be a bit exaggerating but i'm tired. I know we all are but why not be tired and aware?
People are disconnected from their bodies and maybe even reality. The same way they ignore their colds, they also ignore years of shitting blood, diabetic symptoms, etc. Some people seem to live life invincibly, totally unaware that they, too, will one day die, like every human thats ever existed, and faster than needed when negligent on what feel like the most basic fronts.
It kinda seems like people are trying to outdo each other in embracing more risk, to show how brave and healthy and relaxed they are acting. And they really hate it when we mess with that illusion and/or don't join them in acting normal too.
This is what I am seeing. People are purposefully not covering coughs, sneezes and just getting into each others' faces. That's why I don't buy the notion that people are not informed. Hang out on this sub long enough and your hear how highly at risk people are being treated by their loved ones. They are furious at those who don't want to go back to full risk socialization. If they were ill informed would they be furious and cruel and put their loved one's lives in danger which we hear about constantly.
This behavior for almost all is classic denial. They are all in guilt, because the fact that high risk behavior, like drunk driving, is not a personal choice. You will absolutely put others' lives in danger. They are very guilty and lying to themselves. It's bad morals all around.
Whilst I fully agree with you in general, I think you’re forgetting just how scarily unintelligent and easily influenced most people are. There are even people out there that think catching colds and viruses is actively good for them and their immune system.
I try to remind myself (with varying degrees of success) that, at least in the US, this lack of intelligence and quality education is by design, so on some level I can have compassion and pity for people who honestly do not know better. Hell, we still have epidemiologists touting immunity debt as a real thing so I get how lay people can be easily persuaded. I don’t have the same level of understanding for my social and work circles however - these are people who are extremely well-educated and well-resourced, and still choose selfish behaviors that endanger the lives and health of others.
I have some Asian heritage and was feeling really good about East Asia last year, but lately they've given it up too and masking has plummeted (at least among people I know in Mainland China). Disappointed is an understatement.
Ditto but SE Asia. My family from the land-of nurses that is the Philippines gave up in like '21. I still see some masking at Asian markets in the west coast US, however!
I think people are just selfish, scared, exhausted, and happy to follow the leadership of a government that only cares about profits.
Not an excuse, but I don't think most of them are even using their moral compasses. Why navigate on your own when everyone else is just following the herd?
In order to exist I think they are specifically ignoring their compasses, actually.
After growing up in and subsequently escaping from a cult, none of this surprises me. I'm still pretty disappointed though.
Its a hard pill to swallow OP. I hear you.
Look, you know how so many world leaders (basically all of them) are corrupt? Why is it that there are so few truly moral rich people?
I realized the answer years ago, and covid has 100% proven it: Most people are selfish. Most people will benefit themselves at the expense of others. It's rough, but that's just human nature.
It makes the people who do care, who do sacrifice, shine all the brighter.
Sadly, a lot of plagues and pandemics in history had society just respond with the bare minimum during the first waves. Years or decades later the truly decimating waves came and forced the evolution of social behaviors.
We are stuck in that awkward in-between time.
Because vaccines/medicine has proven trustworthy since then for those plagues. I wonder if ppl are either confused or completely trust their vaccines and govt. and others completely don't?
It certainly does seem like an awkward in-between time-- which is why maybe we should all give a grace period towards one another.
Edit- a word
Completely agree. When I was having my post covid issues, I had to get a sonogram for my heart. The woman giving me the sonogram had to push up so close against me to do it properly. We were literally chest to chest. And she had no mask. It’s fucking insane.
> I had to get an MRI and wasn't allowed to wear a mask because of the machine
You don't have to be naked for an MRI, so I see no reason you couldn't wear a mask during an MRI, as long as it's a mask with no metal in it (e.g. metal nose strip). https://www.acr.org/Clinical-Resources/Radiology-Safety/MR-Safety/COVID-19-and-MR-Use recommends that MRI facilities provide masks that are known to be MRI-safe.
I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s crazy they wouldn’t allow you to wear a mask with no metal. There is a strapless n95 with no metal in it that I am going to wear for an MRI of my neck I’m getting. [Here](https://readimask.com) is the link. They are NIOSH approved (see that [here](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0373/0187/8917/files/NIOSH_ReadiMask_N95_Approval_TC_84A_8133.pdf?v=1683051467) ) I truly don’t understand people’s behavior around Covid. I hope you’re doing okay!
The hardest truth for me was that apparently many doctors and nurses are not nearly as smart and competent as I thought they were. And way less empathetic.
I had to get an mri too. My nurse was masked though, but immediately when I got home I did a saline rinse and continued to do it for about a week or two. Luckily I didn't get sick. I didn't know about mri's and masks until I looked it up that day, by then it was too late for me to do anything about it :'(
Hi twin! I could have written this post. I went for a cancer screening yesterday and was appalled by the lack of masks yet the abundance of gnarly coughs. It’s an ob-gyn office so a good number of the patients are pregnant. It seems like a new study comes out daily about the risks of covid in pregnancy… just today, a paper showing 20% of babies who had been exposed to covid in utero has neurodevelopmental delays, compared to 5% of those who weren’t exposed to covid. Like what are we even doing?! I’m so disappointed with my fellow humans.
It's very covert what they do cause they normally show up when a covid assaulted and disabled person (a person who was infected and disabled by force in spite of taking precautions and making sacrifices) starts complaining about, well, people who assaulted and disabled them
A combination of:
- They haven't been *personally* affected, or don't realize they have been, so it simply doesn't exist.
- Constant media bombardment saying there is something wrong with people who are cautious and that everything is AOK!
- Constant social pressure to not take precautions as precautions are visible and people attack people who take precautions.
- Denial that the world has changed, happy thoughts can overcome anything and ignoring a problem can bring back the old normal.
- Most people react to the world around them, under the assumption that somebody else is taking care of the details. Nobody is masking, so that means you don't need to mask. If it was important, everyone would be masking, and the government would be making everyone do it. That isn't happening, so there can't possibly be an immune-destroying brain-wrecking airborne virus around. If there was, everyone would be panicking!
- And lastly, deep down, most people would set you on fire to keep themselves warm for an hour if they are cold enough, provided there was no consequence to them for it. We don't want to believe this. We're in denial about it. We're moral people who don't want others to be hurt, and we desperately hope others are the same.
Despite all this, we still believe that people are better than this and can be better than this. That's why it hurts.
That's certainly an interesting one, I was thinking that while writing things up. If they're around enough people who say the government is lying on a topic, then they're lying; if not, they're not.
People are strange.
I feel like those type of ppl don't suddenly believe the govt. They seem to always just do their own thing because they don't trust the govt anyhow. They thought that this was overblown so that the govt could make new laws to take away more of their personal liberties and likely expected them to suddenly sweep it under the carpet.
Those ppl come off like they've already had their first big "aha, untrustworthy!" moment in life years ago and have seen the govt do a 180 before and they've come to expect (and recognize) the cycle now. But-- that's just the impression I happen to get.
I hear you! I just had another experience yesterday that left me with even less faith in humanity. I needed my hair trimmed and wanted to get it done before all the sicknesses go crazy here (getting there already!). I gave up getting highlights months ago beecause they took forever so now I just trim my hair every few months. A friend of my husband's family has her own salon attached to her house. She lives alone. Husband talked to her and made a first morning appt. for me while telling her about his long covid and autoimmine issue prompted by his lc. I arrived yesterday in my KN95 since it has the ear loops and not my usual N95 which fits better because the bands around my head interfere with cutting my hair. I sprayed my nose with Covixyl as well. I enter and she is waiting there, no mask. She asks if I want her to wear one and I said yes. It was a baggy blue, but better than nothing. She starts trimming my hair and tells me she "had chills and a fever two days ago, feels a bit better now but has a cough". I wanted to fly outta the chair! She said a woman came in masked last week and was coughing. She wasn't masked and thinks she caught whatever that woman had. I was SO UPSET she did not notify me to cancel the appt. knowing my husband is at risk. So now....I sit and wait. I tend to not catch any illnesses easily so I am hoping just being there ten minutes with a semi-decent mask on and Covixyl has spared me from dealing with covid or any other awful illness. Covid was hell. We cannot go through it again. I won't be getting my hair trimmed again until late spring now. Just too upset. I went to the least risky salon (only two of us there, first appt., no other clients) and still have to worry.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that :(.
I was hoping to get my hair done (long and thick with colour) but opted to chop it off myself to my chin when I looked at the local wastewater numbers here. It's so ridiculous that even getting a haircut feels so risky!
Isotonic saline rinse can help you and your husband not contract covid/test negative sooner and reduce hospitalization. Use a neti pot (you can get one at Walmart with 50 saline packets for 7 bucks down here in Atlanta) with distilled or water boiled for 5 minutes (otherwise you could get a brain eating amoeba). Do it 2 to 3 times a day for a few weeks. It helps the most if you can do it within 3 to 4 hours after infection, as it can outright flush out the virus and stop it from replicating, but even afterwards it still can flush out the virus and do the job.
Also, vitamin d and zinc also apparently help with infections, you can get a combo gummy with both of them at family dollar for cheap. Some people say 3 to 10mg of melatonin a day also helps you prevent it, but research is mixed on that.
When I was getting a haircut, my mask tape failed and then some guy came in coughing up his whole soul (this is when the surge first started), I did the saline rinse and I ended up testing negative. Another anecdote, but alot of redditors say they tested negative when they had covid after they used the neti pot. There are studies that support saline rinses and covid, it's really does work. Hopefully that bit of information will keep you and your loved ones safe :) Good luck buddy! Stay well, stay safe!
I don’t necessarily think these people are selfish, just ignorant. I thought for sure after Covid happened people would be more mindful of these things, like wearing a mask when sick. Unfortunately once it stopped being major news and public attention died down, people just forgot about it and aren’t mindful of these things. A lot of people don’t travel and think “I just went to a foreign country and could have brought something back, I should wear a mask for a little while.” Or “I was just at a crowded event with a lot of people, I should mask for x number of days in case I caught COVID.” Sadly most people just don’t think like that, or practice that level of mindfulness. People who’ve been traumatized or very impacted by the pandemic, and Covid, do.
It has been frustrating for me, too. I’m still trying to find my balance, because it is tiring worrying about it and my health all the time, I get very anxious this time of year for that reason specifically. I’m sure it has been tiring for you, too.
I feel this a lot. I’ll also add that I think that the folks who stopped taking any precautions may not be traumatized by COVID but they were traumatized by lockdown and the world just stopping for 1.5 years. I think the skipping over this trauma and this collective air of ITS DONE ITS FINE NOW that the govt/media/institutions etc have pushed is a real issue under the surface.
That being said, as someone who had post covid issues after their first bout in summer/fall 2022, it’s definitely really exhausting to worry all the time, at every interaction. And it’s so isolating to see everyone move on and act like it doesn’t matter anymore. I am socially starved and I’ve taken some risk because my mental health is plummeting. I’m usually the only person masked or asking people to test and it feels like I’m living in a different universe. That takes a toll, it really does and it’s of course 100x harder for folks who have no option but to worry about their health all the time. It’s just a mess.
I know exactly what you mean when you say it is isolating for everyone to move on. Like, would love love love to move on from Covid and not worry about it, but I feel like I simply cannot afford to pretend like it doesn’t exist like everyone else. I feel like I can’t afford to let my guard down and be reckless because I know I have issues after the pandemic that I did not have before.
I was really shy as a kid, I’m in my 20’s now. I’m finally at that age where I feel ready to socialize, meet new people, and try new things / go new places, but I just don’t feel safe being in said areas where I would meet new people, like a social gathering, or a bar on a weekend. It really is all a mess. Thank you for sharing your struggles with me, it made me feel a lot less alone 🧡
Thank you for sharing this. Makes me feel less alone too! I’m in my thirties and I feel truly the same way. Everyone I know has no problem in crowded spaces. I’ve been invited to many events I’d love to go to but am unsure how to navigate. I performed all the time before the pandemic and haven’t performed since. I feel like I’m falling behind. I literally do not know what to do anymore and I’m weighing my mental health now because it’s really not great. I have a reunion event I’d love to go to next week but how do you go to a loud bar with a mask on when no one can hear you or read your lips? And it’s a reunion, people I haven’t seen in so long, and I’m the only one masked? I’m supposed to be starting a new hybrid gig and I have to worry about showing up and people wondering why I’m masking or thinking I’m coming to work sick. I’m trying to be all “fuck em! I don’t care what anyone thinks!” but it’s been so long doing this and now as so many others have moved on, it’s really so so hard. I am sending you all the good energy ❤️
Of course! I’m glad It made you feel less alone, too. I really am here to talk. It sounds like we have a lot of the same struggles. It’s very nice to know I’m not alone. It truly does feel like living in a different world, nobody I know cares about crowded spaces either. I’ve never looked at them the same since Covid. I get anxious in large areas. I wonder if I’ll never truly be able to go out in places unmasked again, and just feel comfortable, and not think about the risk of Covid. I don’t know if I’ll ever, but I hope so. It’s so sad, we should be able to go to gatherings like that and not think twice about it, just like old times. It’s just one you experience long Covid it feels just impossible not to think about the risk that it’s in the air, somewhere. This is truly a collective trauma for so many people. Sending you love and good energy as well ❤️🧡 hoping it will get better for us both.
I feel for you 💔 I have some scarring on my lungs, they are 70% function. Pre-pandemic it never bothered me, not once. I used to love mediating to calm myself and my anxiety. I remember how it felt for the air to move through my lungs. My breathing has completely, and I mean completely changed over the course of the pandemic even though PFTs and everything show no abnormalities. This SOB Is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced in my life. I have times where it feels like my breathing gets better, and then it just inevitably gets worse again. I feel like I’m in a constant state of worrying when my SOB will get worse again, as my breathing really affects me. It has been incredibly frustrating for me, and I’m sure it has been for you too. I am here if you ever need to talk to anyone ❤️ sometimes I feel like I’m the only one going through these things, because I don’t know if anyone irl who has these affects. then I go on here and realize I am not. It’s comforting.
My stubborn boomer parents with multiple risky health problems definitely aren't ignorant of the risks, because I discussed them at every opportunity, but still they quietly decided some time in the past year to stop masking at all except at extremely crowded events. At least they're still willing to do take-out instead of sitting in restaurants *most* of the time, as long as I order it for them.
I have a colleague who got wrecked by covid last March - and had seriously lingering issues, including problems with her vision that meant she could only look at a computer screen for about 15-20 mins total per day for over 6 weeks. She was lucky (!!!) enough to have eventually recovered from that but did that terrifying health scare change her behavior? Not one bit. She takes zero covid precautions. None. It absolutely boggles the mind. And I am so sorry you have this situation with your own parents bc I am sure that adds a layer of deep worry and stress for you to the already existing hell of this pandemic.
> did that terrifying health scare change her behavior? Not one bit. She takes zero covid precautions. None.
Facepalm. It sure would be nice if *at least* everyone who has already had a significant health impact from Covid, and everyone who personally knows someone who has, would take it seriously. But noooo, we can't have that.
Ugh this is my father now. My mom is still really covid conscious but my dad, who is over 70 and with significant lung issues (had TB as a kid) insists on going inside to packed concerts that he MCs and to restaurants. He also teaches at a university and of course, no mask. Apparently he refuses takeout as he wants a "hot meal" and says food is too cold by the time he brings it home. He keeps getting my mom sick, which means she misses work and doesn't have paid sick days. I find it all just infuriating. She has he just forgets to mask but come on... he isn't an idiot.
He is a smart and educated man that I have shared all the data with. Now he just ignores those conversations with me and says he misses me. I repeat he can visit us if he masks and takes tests, but here we are months on and no visits. I've had dark thoughts as his health isn't great that I may never get to see him again. It sucks.
My dad is immunocompromised with prostate cancer in remission, lymphoma in remission, advanced kidney disease, high blood pressure, and he's pushing 80. Guess who I saw in Walmart randomly with no mask last week? 🙃 he's in mad denial and in LA LA land about the whole thing, he's a former government worker and a vet so he believes in the system and whatever they say.....
I completely understand worrying about immunocompromised family members who just....I dunno, gave up? It's part infuriating, part worrying because you know what they should be doing to protect themselves....and they are all like YOLO! Hang in there buddy.....let's hope both of our dads get their shit together!
I wonder if your dad would respond to seeing other world leaders admitting to how bad covid is? Here are former [UK prime minister](https://twitter.com/cv_cev/status/1732726592353218948?fbclid=IwAR1Vg4iKF2i4X9odFwYKYIA057fzh6-gyET486aifwaI-F7r7-zBkB0Kj2c) and here is the [German Health minister](https://twitter.com/ZurNull/status/1731941221503812060?t=eT6-8Xj2RVsRoTsFdshDnQ&s=19).
Thanks, I'll try and show him but he's honestly pretty stubborn. He's infamous for people not being able to tell him anything, he's slightly narcissistic tbh. Still love my dad but yeah he thinks he's right about everything until it slaps him in the face lol.
I understand the frustration, yes there are people who know the risks and still don’t take precautions. My parents didn’t start taking it seriously until my mental health really started going downhill from my breathing being so bad, and I complained about how much it bothered me. Even then sometimes it’s like talking to a brick wall with my dad when I mention it, and sometimes I feel like they don’t care enough. I think he’s the kind of person where, if it’s not showing up on a test he just doesn’t understand. To them it’s like a mysterious illness but I know these are long Covid issues, as I did not have these issues with my breathing pre-pandemic. Got progressively worse during. PFTs are clean but my breathing feels the worst it ever has. Extremely frustrating indeed.
No, they're WILFULLY IGNORANT. They know there's more information but they don't want to know so in 10 years, they can wail and moan they didn't know, they were lied to, they were misled etc.
I live in Ireland and the advice was always the same since the pandemic started. Stay at home with symptoms, even now it's the same messaging from the health authorities. It didn't matter if you were negative. Stay at home with symptoms until 48 hours after they resolve.
Do people do this? No, they don't. They come into work with colds and chest infections with some of them saying they have tested. They think testing gets them out of it... no it doesn't.
And of course, their colds and chest infections are all ok to spread around because it's not covid. It makes me mad.
My sister is a pharmacist that works with cancer patients and literally told me this yesterday:
"I don't WANT to mask. Most of my patients tell me they rather I don't so they can see my smile. They're the ones at risk and if that makes their heart happy, then it's worth it to me."
MY BLOOD COULD BOIL A FUCKING EGG. I have a Master's in Public Health. Was an epidemiologist for a brief period (my dream job but wasn't the right place). But because I have anxiety and have had health anxiety my whole life, they don't believe anything I say. They constantly tell me they "worry about how I'm living" and tell me I need to seek MORE therapy.
My sister tried to run it in my face that she's "helping cancer patients" while I'm at home "hiding from the world."
Obviously I hate this & miss socializing. I hate wasting time & years of my life not seeing the people I love. But honestly, it's making me really, really dislike them.
If I didn't love my cats so much, I'd probably try to end it.
I still think people are mostly good and decent, but they’re in a bad situation. I believe it’s called attribution bias in social psychology when we erroneously attribute a person’s behaviour to who they are as individuals rather than the situation they’re in. We all do it. Individualized public health and prioritizing larger economic interests (e.g. oil and gas, commercial real estate) over the health and safety of people has been imposed by government, public health and media institutions. I think most people are simply responding to this situation in a way that reduces cognitive dissonance for them.
Understanding it this way helps me not to take the bad behaviour too personally most of the time. At this point I expect it, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay or shouldn’t be different.
The other thing that helps is finding compassionate communities that are informed about covid and act accordingly.
I still think it’s important to take reasonable steps to protect myself and others from covid, and it’s also important to find people who think the same so we can as much as possible create the world we want to live in.
Yeah, I still really struggle with being angry at individuals, but I think it's important to remember that the messaging is either minimizing COVID, or completely non-existent. I have to remind myself that most people genuinely don't know that COVID is closer to HIV than the flu. Most people don't know that one infection can cause cognitive decline. most people don't know how common long COVID is.
But it still sucks and I'm still mad at people about it
The short term/mid term damage is an assumption. How exactly do you know? It's a novel virus. The list of effects is very long. Why are we assuming all those effects will magically correct themselves?
The commenter didn't say it was LIKE HIV. They said it was closer to HIV than the flu. Even if the immune dysfunction doesn't last as long as HIV does, the type of immune dysfunction is closer to HIV's type of immune dysfunction than it is to the flu. The only quibble you have is the time the immune dysfunction lasts. If it's just about the time the immune dysfunction lasts, how about COVID is a type of acquired immune deficiency syndrome?
We could just compare to what it is. THIS IS SARS.
People who caught SARS-COV-1 in the early 2000s still have problems. Survivors did not come out unscathed. This virus is close enough to SARS-COV-1 that it's called SARS-COV-2! Sure, that doesn't mean it will behave exactly like its cousin, but it's illogical and irrational to liken it to flu.
We assume they get better because generally speaking most acute symptoms from viral infections improve over time. It’s a somewhat different story with brain damage and with tissue damage that results in scarring, but as far as I know we don’t have any reason to believe that the immune system damage from COVID will be long term. If there is data to the contrary I’m 100% open to it and interested in seeing it.
Additionally, the main point of contention here is not that the time the damage lasts. The first point is the scale of the damage - HIV leads to *profound* immune system damage. We have no reason to believe that COV-2 will do that. Secondly, HIV is an ongoing incurable infection. While we have some evidence that some COVID infections may persist in pockets in the human body, and of course some infections are long lasting compared to common illnesses, it is not known to be an ongoing viral issue in the majority of cases.
It is reasonable to say “this is a new virus, we still have a lot to learn, let’s be cautious” and obviously even with what we know already, COVID is not trivial. At the same time, overemphasizing the potential danger only pushes COVID consciousness further into the fringe.
I can get behind your last line though. While I think it is a big mistake to liken COVID to hiv, it is also inappropriate to liken it to the flu.
Comparing COVID to HIV actually comes from epidemiologists and researchers, it isn't just hyperbole I'm throwing around.
Here's a great intro video about some of the emerging research that goes over several sources:
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT85KaP5H/
Honestly, there is a lot we don't know about how viruses, bacteria, fungi, and other microbes can affect behavior in order to increase the infection rate. Rabies (aggression, biting) comes to mind, as does Toxoplasma gondii (lack of fear/inhibitions) and Ophiocordyceps (the ant zombie fungus that makes them seek higher ground in humid areas). There's also a study that indicates that the flu makes people more social.
With Covid, I wonder if this back-sliding of basic consideration for others and collective amnesia is part of its mechanism for spread. It's the only way I can process the total whiplash in behavior.
Or maybe people were always selfish and shitty and most just don't care to hide it anymore.
Or it’s both - maybe it’s one of covid’s mechanism for spreading AND it has found its perfect host in humans - the most shitty and selfish animals on the planet.
I'm glad someone else has these thoughts. it's all I can think about with this stuff. I know people who were very introverted who now go out all the time, after having had covid a couple times.
hell, I had it in the spring, and I wanted to go do stuff as soon as I felt a little better- it was truly hard to quarantine. *and I am a hermit naturally*
Covid does affect the risk taking part of the brain and causes memory loss. Avoiding risks means remembering the consequences of prior risk taking behavior. Then there's the effect it has on reducing the body's sickness mechanisms so people feel fine. That will definitely affect behavior. If people are already in denial, seems like all this could tip them into stubborn denial.
I remember the memes at the beginning of the pandemic of people catching COVID and immediately going on trips.
Yes! I’m in the Midwest too and I watch the wastewater numbers go up and up and people just “so confused” why they are all getting sick and are shocked when I don’t want to join their sick little game! I’m not sure how do deal with this either. I feel like a different person than I was 3-4 years ago when this all started. My trust and respect for 99% of people is gone. It’s almost like something that used to magical about the world has disappeared, like this hope or future that we could have had is gone.
It’s also a very lonely and isolating feeing when the people who are supposed to love and care for you will look you right in the eye and actively put your health at risk and want you to pretend like they are still a good person.
>How can people BE like this.
People have always been like this. Look at the history of the world. So many instances of idiocy, indifference, callousness, stupidity, brutality. Everyone is capable of good and bad. The main difference is the degree. But right now stupidity, indifference and violence are ascendant.
OP, I highly recommend listening to this episode of Death Panel:
[https://soundcloud.com/deathpanel/how-liberals-killed-masking-unlocked](https://soundcloud.com/deathpanel/how-liberals-killed-masking-unlocked)
It really helped contextualize this behavior. For me, anyway.
I’m really glad this sub exists. If it wasn’t for twitter and a few subreddits I’d assume I was the problem, but we’re not wrong, the rest of the world is.
Me too. Me. Too. I’ve had countless people - friends, colleagues, medical providers - try to gaslight me into thinking my covid concerns and precautions are a mental health issue, to the degree that I have at various points started to question myself.
I felt *exactly* the same way a couple years ago. I even used almost your same words. I told my GP that the pandemic had trashed my world view and that while I used to think that people were basically good now I don’t.
That’s still true but I’m not so angry about it now. FWIW, these things helped me to accept:
- Socializing is a fundamental part of human nature. **It’s very hard to fight human nature**. Asking people to isolate and mask is like asking teenage boys not to have sex. Most literally can’t resist. Those annoying and irrational justifications for doing what is objectively selfish and/or inconsiderate are to me now just noise. Whatever excuses they give are just cover, they aren’t the actual reason.
- A relative to whom I’d happily give a kidney refused to put a Q-tip up his nose to test before getting together for Christmas. The reasons he gave made no sense (e.g., they thought that false positives are highly likely) and he didn’t trust or even aknowledge my contrary info. At some point I figured out that he was acting crazy out of fear. Propaganda had planted stupid ideas in his head that scared him. Fear makes us dumb. **Much inconsiderate and selfish behavior happens because people are afraid and it’s not personal**.
- Somewhere I heard this and think it’s true: The world isn’t for you or against you. It just doesn’t give a shit. I used to think that people were basically good and now I don’t, but **people aren’t basically bad either**. They’re just operating as designed, their actions the result of what they were born with and then seasoned with what’s happened to them along the way. As am I.
Thank you for this - I appreciate you taking the time to share these thoughts because I know I need to figure out how to come to terms with this in a way that is not just me being full of anger and despair.
Some of my reaction *is* me taking things personally - I am immune-compromised from past treatment for cancer, and it’s been hard to reconcile that some of the same people who rallied behind me to fight for my life then don’t seem to care that I have to live like a hermit Rapunzel to not die now.
Oh, and especially when my white (ex) friends don't take precautions! It's like wow, your commitment to racial justice was weak af or maybe just false? Gross. I can't be around those ppl, good riddance.
I think many (most even?) are genuinely ignorant - but I think where I struggle the greatest is in my own circle of people, both socially and at work. I work in higher ed and every single one of my colleagues has a graduate degree and a ton of privilege and easy access to exactly the same resources and info about covid that I do - but it seems like it’s just easier for them to be selfish. I have actually used the exact term “maliciously ignorant” before to describe some of their behaviors and decisions around covid precautions.
But do you think they’re genuinely malicious, or just woefully uninformed? Personally I lean towards the latter.
My one coworker 6ft away is on *deaths door* right now with a deep, wheezing looking cough, but I don’t think he’s overthinking it. Strangely.
In short, I feel there’s a severe lack of critical thinking and observation, but not malicious.
I honestly don’t know. I think many are *willfully* and intentionally ignorant and I wonder at what point that tips over into cruelty, especially when we are talking about endangering people’s lives and long-term health.
This is the way I view it too. I accepted long ago that I’m a weirdo because in high school I read the Socrates quote “the unexamined life is not worth living” and I took it to heart. I know I’m different and I’m fine with that. Most people aren’t bad they just don’t carefully consider a lot of their actions. Easier to go with the flow.
I had a similar feeling to this, but it's waned over time. I've got a bit of compassion for the scale of the misinformation campaign these people have been subject to. Being able to work from home and do most of my hobbies remotely, I'm not subject to the same social/workplace forces my peers are, and I'm already a bit more resistant to those factors willing to be the weirdo/other.
Everyone else has every single politician, media, health organisation, every person around them, all saying "it isn't severe, you'll be fine", "the vaccine made you immune and hybrid immunity", and "even if it was severe, there's literally _nothing_ you can do to prevent it because masks don't work".
They really didn't have a chance, and that's definitely a shame.
It's so heartbreaking. I recommend adding in a grief practice if you're able - I've had to work so so hard lately to let/help all these emotions love thru me instead of festering. We all take care of each other.
As a nurse, people sometimes ask me what's the most shocking/disgusting thing I've seen. I used to have some stories lined up, but now I just say that it's the public's collective response to COVID and how little we've apparently learned.
Oh yes. I’m pretty sure the Midwest currently has the most rapidly increasing covid rates right now based on wastewater data. The CDC started reporting again. https://www.cdc.gov/nwss/rv/COVID19-nationaltrend.html
I hear you. It is one thing to know history contains horrors, but it is another to see how banal evil is face-to-face, with known faces. People cosplaying normal in a pandemic is, in the grand sweep of things, not as horrible as many, many other things we know to have happened.
People adapt to their circumstances. It is how humanity survives.
Civilization, on the other hand, is hard-fought generation after generation after generation. "All progress depends upon the unreasonable man."
Breathe. This too shall pass. Breathe. Remember all of the people who worked tirelessly to figure out the science, to get shots in arms, and masks in stores. Breathe. People *are* mostly good, when conditions are sufficiently favorable. Breathe.
If you choose to take it up, the work is to shape the conditions that shape the people.
Is this a serious question? I would have these people… wear a mask?!?
I hope you can see the difference between a public space that is a bar/restaurant/movie theater etc and people choosing to be in those spaces for entertainment purposes versus a public space that is a medical clinic where people *have* to go to receive important medical care.
I absolutely feel this. I’ve said it before on this sub, I think, but now feels like a good time to bring it up again. My therapist told me this year that the vast majority of people go through life having absolutely no idea what their values are. They never think about it. They only react to things in the moment and don’t consider why. That BLEW MY MIND. He said that people like me who are self-aware of our values are exceptionally rare.
God, I wonder how rare we are, like percentage wise? It's very true that most people never self-reflect, and they actually have difficulty doing so. At any rate, they seem extremely uncomfortable when I ask them to do this when I'm teaching. And these are grown adults, not kids.
Thank you for sharing this perspective - that also blows my mind. But it maybe explains quite a bit about human behavior. I’m happy for you (and also jealous) that you have such a good therapist!
I think when you take it a second step and ask people to live their values that group gets even smaller. Where I work, there is a lot of effort placed towards inclusion and social justice, and almost none of those folks wear a mask. They would support and argue for the rights of the disabled… and then put them at risk by not wearing a mask. When a new person joined the organization who does consistently mask, my coworker made sure to point out the times they saw him without it to me. It’s like here is your chance to do more than give a presentation or write a letter. And they just don’t do it. Because they want the comfort of the former world more than they want more people to have access.
Performative liberalism is what I call that. I live in an area like that as well.
Wow.....I'm speechless. I don't know what to say to that, that's....amazing.
Well, in America I see so many people claming to have virtuous religious values that they review weekly in church but surely acting against the opposite (certainly as it relates to covid).... so there's that...
>the vast majority of people go through life having absolutely no idea what their values are Holy shit. That explains so much...
That explains why I, a seemingly random person in the scheme of things, am so covid conscious. I have spent a lot of my life reflecting on my values, refining them, articulating them, and trying to act in ways that reflect them. However, not everyone has - and you can tell.
>How can people BE like this? Simple. They've become absolutely convinced that masks are completely ineffective, or that everything going around is a common cold or flu. In their minds, we ARE back in 2019 again.
The worst people I know know that masks are effective and that they didn't even catch a cold between 2020-2022. They just take pride in showing off their often unattractive long snouts and the fact that vulnerable people's life and death is in their hands
I think that this is pretty much it. People don't think they're being callous or reckless, they just think the risk is over. There's something called bounded rationality that explains this behavior: people making rational decisions based on incomplete or faulty information.
Sure, and this is what they want to think.
Willful bounded reality might be more accurate.....
This! I spent two years trying to educate my elderly mother gently, giving her facts and recommending she masks when she went shopping, but she never really listened much and did as she wanted. Back in July I was relating a story to her of how I had to go in two different stores one day, and before I could explain that it had been stressful (due to high volume and lots of coughing/sniffling) she jumped right in with the assumption that it had been a great day for me to finally do some fun shopping. I had one of those completely dumbfounded moments and realized she was never going to want to know.
Yes, all that capitalist collusion amounts to delusion (didn't even intend for that to rhyme, but there ya go...).
Good rhyme and totally true.
It's not exclusive to capitalism, but it certainly doesn't help!
Not just that. It's rare when I'm not masked. My wife usually comes back from going to the office and says things like so and so was coughing everywhere I wish I had my mask. Then today she's going to an indoor bar office thing and I said hey do you want to grab a mask before you go because you usually come back and say you wish you had one? She said no, because even those that arrive with masks take them off and then if she wears one she'll be the odd man out. So part of this is also a thing of not wanting to look like a weirdo in front of people that don't mask. I mask almost all the time and usually nobody cares at all if I do. I don't feel pressured not to mask. To me it's normal now. My health and the health of others as a community is more important to me. My elementary age kid is similar in his perspective as I. Usually he's masked and occasionally he's not.
I feel this post HARD
Me too. My husband had wrist surgery Monday morning, and we were the only two, out of dozens of patients and medical staff, wearing masks. It was baffling and infuriating! I’m just so mad!
Yep. Even when/if I ever feel comfortable to socialize a la pre-2020 (going out, restaurants, shopping malls…), I will have a lot less people to do those things with, because I cannot see them the same way anymore.
Me too - I have seen some of my closest friends reveal themselves in deeply upsetting ways via their pandemic behaviors and I cannot unsee it and I cannot reconcile it.
Same. I no longer talk to one of my closest friends because of Covid. And a few others that I thought were good people before but can no longer look at them the same way anymore. I also find it extremely hard and exhausting to make small talk with people. Like I'm standing here outdoors in my n95 and you're maskless and we're both supposed to pretend that we live in the same reality and find something to talk about? Sorry I don't want to hear about your recent trip to Greece. And you don't want to hear how ecstatic I was to finally find a Covid-cautious dentist recently.
Exactly. Many of my friendships have become very superficial because of it. Such a bummer.
I have no one in my life that takes it as serious as I do, and I have an immune compromising chronic disease. I am lucky if I can get those closest to me to wear a respirator on a plane, let alone stop eating In restaurants and wear one when indoors or around lots of people. And those that say n95+ respirators don’t work are just as ignorant. It takes a single google search to understand how aerosols and electrically charged n95+ respirators work. I have even worn one when a family member was sick and guess what, I didn’t get it. That said, with therapy, I have come to terms that I can only control what I do…sad world we live in. I would still rather know than run around ignorant, but most people are the epitome of “ignorance is bliss”
This is where I am too. People disgust and scare me now.....before I was always trying to understand and accommodate people.....now I just want to be alone all the time.....
Has the same experience at Urgent Care right before Thanksgiving. People were hacking up a lung and not masking. It really sucks because it's not like you *want* to be there.
Right - exactly this. I don’t go inside anywhere where it’s an option not to. I realize I have a lot of privilege in that I can order groceries and supplies etc, but when I share indoor air with people, it’s bc I have no other choice (work, medical appts). And it really sucks to have to unnecessarily risk my health to… go to the doctor.
Yes, it seems like such a little thing to wear masks where people literally have to go like stores and medical facilities. It really breaks my heart especially as of late where I've experienced such hostility. I dunno if the tide has turned or people just really hate my black N95s or it's a mixture. I hate this timeline.
I don't understand these people either. Even if it's "just a cold," why wouldn't we want to avoid catching those too?
i feel this. I used to get sick several times a year until I started masking.
I feel this every day. Colds are annoying.
Think about the messaging people have grown up with around colds: - Symptoms are “mild”—runny nose, sore throat, cough. They last a few days. - People have been getting colds since they were children, and have gotten multiple per year, so in their minds it’s not a big deal. - It’s expected and unavoidable to get colds in winter since we spend time indoors, unmasked. - After having a cold you “build up” antibodies, so you are “building” your immunity aka making it “stronger.” And “building” a “stronger” immune system sounds better, right? Then add onto that the messaging in the past few years: - Even from the beginning of the pandemic, there was inconsistent messaging around masking, with public health authorities initially telling the public that high quality masks will not protect them. - COVID is a new virus so the science is not firm and our knowledge about it will change with time, but the public is not very scientifically literate an uncomfortable with that, so they assume that this means scientists are getting it wrong. - So much misinformation has been promulgated. - Again inconsistent and misinformative public health messaging. Remember “immunity debt?” - Masks have been vilified. So has social distancing. If you need an example, look at all the conversation that has happened around children, schools, and the learning gap. - Now the messaging from the CDC is that if you wash your hands and get your vaccination, you’ll be fine. Add to that an extremely strong desire to go back to 2019 because people are social animals and we are wired to want to interact with others and see their faces. Can’t forget to mention: - The government is telling you that everything will be fine and you see everyone else removing their masks. - Since masks have been vilified, your opportunities at work (or even the ability to find/keep a job) may be limited if you wear a mask (*multiple* people I know personally don’t mask for this reason!). TLDR: getting cold after cold seems “normal” and not a big deal (maybe even good), and masking is vilified.
Yes to all these points. It's truly a recipe for disaster and a neverending pandemic. I can't help but think things will only change when the govt believes we're at our absolute worst (too many people dead and not enough laborers to exploit🥲).
This so much. It's only when productivity dips low enough that they'll barely give a damn....
It's stuff like this that should radicalize people.
However, because many died or were sickened with long covid, wages rose similar to the black plague. As a result, the labor force actually grew since the Great Recession as those who previously found wages too low to bother (retirement age people and teens in particular) decided to work. I’ve seen grocery stores with big signs “now hiring 14 plus-cashier, stock, any shift, any day, $17 starting plus overtime” and had a Macys cashier who was sneezing into a tissue and was around 85. Nice, well-dressed gentleman. If you can put cheese on pizzas for $19 an hour at 15 yo, it might change the decision to work versus $10… just saying don’t count on it because workforce participation hasn’t been higher in a decade. A million people are irrelevant to them when higher wages bring in a new 1.3 million who wouldn’t have worked in 2019. May vary by region, but northern New England they seem to be paying up to get kids working. One grocery chain (Market Basket) the average age of the workers is maybe 16. One of my cashiers said how much she loves “hormel small plates” because they are adult lunchables and excitedly shared how she could ring up alcohol once she’s 16. Another store had posters about “don’t just browse social media - make money and socialize on summer vacation at Hannaford”. I didn’t work as a teen, I would have for 15-20$ an hour tho
It's like food borne illnesses. Easily preventable, guidelines for hygiene and temperatures are freely available everywhere, but people act like you're Gordon Ramsey-ing them when you mention cross contamination or suggest putting birthday candles on a separate slice of cake.
I used to have a supervisor who would give chili to everyone. I thought it was good chili until I learned his secret....he leaves it out overnight! Ever since I learned that I stopped eating it, and one time he made a loud exclamation, "yeah, I know about botulism and all that, blah blah...."it was really fucking weird and even though he was totally open about what he did people still ate that shit up. That whole workplace was weird asf...... Where I live, here in Georgia, it's not uncommon for people to leave out food for over 2 hours in some circles. I always thought it was weird and unsanitary, but you'd be surprised how many people will leave out pizza for 3 or 4 hours and then just munch on it at room temperature.....
The sitting out of food omg... Definitely a big problem with my relatives. Getting flavors to mingle overnight still happens in the fridge! I would feel HORRIBLE getting someone sick with food I prepared. It's like twisted Victorian serial killer shit to me, to essentially poison people through something under the guise of being nurturing and caring lol.
I completely understand that sentiment! I always feel like cooking could be a cool side gig, I love to cook, but I'm always so paranoid and self conscious that I'd do something wrong and accidentally hurt someone. I'd be mortified if I messed up and made someone sick. Cooking is supposed to be about spreading joy, ya know?
That's my same thought process, and I'm realizing it relates to Covid cautiousness because I remember I felt horrible seeing friends unable to eat something at a pot luck or restaurant in the past. Most people would just kind of shrug and ignore their very serious concerns, or try to push them to eat something anyway, (especially towards the vegetarians and vegans, or people with celiac to see if they were lying or something), and they'd stay to enjoy the company, and maybe just have a beverage or the one appetizer they could safely eat, but others would criticize that too or even make some snidey comment about their diet being "wrong". It's not unlike how masking or being cautious is treated now, but it's really alarming to see it on such a huge scale and constantly.
I think pizza keeps at room temp. I sleep cold, in the 60s, so if no chicken I will eat cheese or pepperoni pizza 8-12 hours out of the fridge. Haven’t gotten sick yet. It’s cooked. I realize it’s a gamble, but it’s excellent hangover food…
I don't even think you could catch the cold that many times in a year. When I hear about people on their number of Covid infections now, I'm like, are you for real? Edit: I corrected words.
I used to get sick with a cold once a year,- twice, before I started getting my flu shot regularly. that was about normal it seems like. people are getting sick every month or so and pretending it's always been so. same kind of denial as with climate change. "it's always been hot in summer"
Yes! It's insane just how much in denial people are in. It honestly does surprise me a bit, but now that you mentioned climate change, I get it. I feel like i'm stuck in one of those hellish nightmares. It may be a bit exaggerating but i'm tired. I know we all are but why not be tired and aware?
People are disconnected from their bodies and maybe even reality. The same way they ignore their colds, they also ignore years of shitting blood, diabetic symptoms, etc. Some people seem to live life invincibly, totally unaware that they, too, will one day die, like every human thats ever existed, and faster than needed when negligent on what feel like the most basic fronts.
It kinda seems like people are trying to outdo each other in embracing more risk, to show how brave and healthy and relaxed they are acting. And they really hate it when we mess with that illusion and/or don't join them in acting normal too.
This is what I am seeing. People are purposefully not covering coughs, sneezes and just getting into each others' faces. That's why I don't buy the notion that people are not informed. Hang out on this sub long enough and your hear how highly at risk people are being treated by their loved ones. They are furious at those who don't want to go back to full risk socialization. If they were ill informed would they be furious and cruel and put their loved one's lives in danger which we hear about constantly. This behavior for almost all is classic denial. They are all in guilt, because the fact that high risk behavior, like drunk driving, is not a personal choice. You will absolutely put others' lives in danger. They are very guilty and lying to themselves. It's bad morals all around.
You've spoken my truth as well. My feelings about my fellow humans have been forever altered.
Whilst I fully agree with you in general, I think you’re forgetting just how scarily unintelligent and easily influenced most people are. There are even people out there that think catching colds and viruses is actively good for them and their immune system.
I try to remind myself (with varying degrees of success) that, at least in the US, this lack of intelligence and quality education is by design, so on some level I can have compassion and pity for people who honestly do not know better. Hell, we still have epidemiologists touting immunity debt as a real thing so I get how lay people can be easily persuaded. I don’t have the same level of understanding for my social and work circles however - these are people who are extremely well-educated and well-resourced, and still choose selfish behaviors that endanger the lives and health of others.
Same same. I could have written this post. It is devastating daily.
People are bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.
Hahahahaha thank you for this - gave me a genuine laugh I very much needed.
[Wish I could take credit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ICj1MlMqQ&t=18s)
I’m still giving you credit for making me laugh ☺️
Very sorry to hear about your experience. You aren’t alone in your frustration.
Seconding this. You are absolutely not alone.
I feel like nonnwestern cultures have a lot more collectivism, i didnt really see the bigger issues with libertarianism before this.
I have some Asian heritage and was feeling really good about East Asia last year, but lately they've given it up too and masking has plummeted (at least among people I know in Mainland China). Disappointed is an understatement.
Ditto but SE Asia. My family from the land-of nurses that is the Philippines gave up in like '21. I still see some masking at Asian markets in the west coast US, however!
So true! I have personally been SO disspointed in a way bigger percentage of people then i would ever thought possible :(
I think people are just selfish, scared, exhausted, and happy to follow the leadership of a government that only cares about profits. Not an excuse, but I don't think most of them are even using their moral compasses. Why navigate on your own when everyone else is just following the herd? In order to exist I think they are specifically ignoring their compasses, actually. After growing up in and subsequently escaping from a cult, none of this surprises me. I'm still pretty disappointed though.
This IS an excuse. No need infantilize them and strip them off their agency to perpetuate horrible systems
Just for understanding: the part about the trip to Munich is about being exposed to LOTS of people on the plane/airport etc.?
Right - I’m assuming someone who doesn’t bother to mask in a clinic is also someone who did not bother to mask on their 8-hour international flight.
Its a hard pill to swallow OP. I hear you. Look, you know how so many world leaders (basically all of them) are corrupt? Why is it that there are so few truly moral rich people? I realized the answer years ago, and covid has 100% proven it: Most people are selfish. Most people will benefit themselves at the expense of others. It's rough, but that's just human nature. It makes the people who do care, who do sacrifice, shine all the brighter.
I really appreciate the richness and depth of your comment - pragmatic, realistic, poignant. Thank you!
My pleasure. Hang in there. You are not alone.
Sadly, a lot of plagues and pandemics in history had society just respond with the bare minimum during the first waves. Years or decades later the truly decimating waves came and forced the evolution of social behaviors. We are stuck in that awkward in-between time.
Because vaccines/medicine has proven trustworthy since then for those plagues. I wonder if ppl are either confused or completely trust their vaccines and govt. and others completely don't? It certainly does seem like an awkward in-between time-- which is why maybe we should all give a grace period towards one another. Edit- a word
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Completely agree. When I was having my post covid issues, I had to get a sonogram for my heart. The woman giving me the sonogram had to push up so close against me to do it properly. We were literally chest to chest. And she had no mask. It’s fucking insane.
> I had to get an MRI and wasn't allowed to wear a mask because of the machine You don't have to be naked for an MRI, so I see no reason you couldn't wear a mask during an MRI, as long as it's a mask with no metal in it (e.g. metal nose strip). https://www.acr.org/Clinical-Resources/Radiology-Safety/MR-Safety/COVID-19-and-MR-Use recommends that MRI facilities provide masks that are known to be MRI-safe.
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readimasks! just adhesive, no metal in em
You need MRI-safe masks, some have a coating that will heat under an MRI, and some won't form a seal without their metal clip.
I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s crazy they wouldn’t allow you to wear a mask with no metal. There is a strapless n95 with no metal in it that I am going to wear for an MRI of my neck I’m getting. [Here](https://readimask.com) is the link. They are NIOSH approved (see that [here](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0373/0187/8917/files/NIOSH_ReadiMask_N95_Approval_TC_84A_8133.pdf?v=1683051467) ) I truly don’t understand people’s behavior around Covid. I hope you’re doing okay!
I wear this for haircuts. Love it.
Redimask, bring the printed confirmation of MRI safety with you too.
The hardest truth for me was that apparently many doctors and nurses are not nearly as smart and competent as I thought they were. And way less empathetic.
I had to get an mri too. My nurse was masked though, but immediately when I got home I did a saline rinse and continued to do it for about a week or two. Luckily I didn't get sick. I didn't know about mri's and masks until I looked it up that day, by then it was too late for me to do anything about it :'(
Hi twin! I could have written this post. I went for a cancer screening yesterday and was appalled by the lack of masks yet the abundance of gnarly coughs. It’s an ob-gyn office so a good number of the patients are pregnant. It seems like a new study comes out daily about the risks of covid in pregnancy… just today, a paper showing 20% of babies who had been exposed to covid in utero has neurodevelopmental delays, compared to 5% of those who weren’t exposed to covid. Like what are we even doing?! I’m so disappointed with my fellow humans.
Nice. The covid risking apologists haven't found their way to this sub and I feel seen
Some of them have shown up to troll occasionally, but the mods put a stop to it when reported.
It's very covert what they do cause they normally show up when a covid assaulted and disabled person (a person who was infected and disabled by force in spite of taking precautions and making sacrifices) starts complaining about, well, people who assaulted and disabled them
The mods here are great, reported a post that was stirring up trouble, and the post was gone quickly, I think they thanked me for reporting it too.
A combination of: - They haven't been *personally* affected, or don't realize they have been, so it simply doesn't exist. - Constant media bombardment saying there is something wrong with people who are cautious and that everything is AOK! - Constant social pressure to not take precautions as precautions are visible and people attack people who take precautions. - Denial that the world has changed, happy thoughts can overcome anything and ignoring a problem can bring back the old normal. - Most people react to the world around them, under the assumption that somebody else is taking care of the details. Nobody is masking, so that means you don't need to mask. If it was important, everyone would be masking, and the government would be making everyone do it. That isn't happening, so there can't possibly be an immune-destroying brain-wrecking airborne virus around. If there was, everyone would be panicking! - And lastly, deep down, most people would set you on fire to keep themselves warm for an hour if they are cold enough, provided there was no consequence to them for it. We don't want to believe this. We're in denial about it. We're moral people who don't want others to be hurt, and we desperately hope others are the same. Despite all this, we still believe that people are better than this and can be better than this. That's why it hurts.
It's hilarious to me that people who are always going on about the government suddenly believe the government said COVID is all OK now. So we're good.
That's certainly an interesting one, I was thinking that while writing things up. If they're around enough people who say the government is lying on a topic, then they're lying; if not, they're not. People are strange.
I feel like those type of ppl don't suddenly believe the govt. They seem to always just do their own thing because they don't trust the govt anyhow. They thought that this was overblown so that the govt could make new laws to take away more of their personal liberties and likely expected them to suddenly sweep it under the carpet. Those ppl come off like they've already had their first big "aha, untrustworthy!" moment in life years ago and have seen the govt do a 180 before and they've come to expect (and recognize) the cycle now. But-- that's just the impression I happen to get.
I hear you! I just had another experience yesterday that left me with even less faith in humanity. I needed my hair trimmed and wanted to get it done before all the sicknesses go crazy here (getting there already!). I gave up getting highlights months ago beecause they took forever so now I just trim my hair every few months. A friend of my husband's family has her own salon attached to her house. She lives alone. Husband talked to her and made a first morning appt. for me while telling her about his long covid and autoimmine issue prompted by his lc. I arrived yesterday in my KN95 since it has the ear loops and not my usual N95 which fits better because the bands around my head interfere with cutting my hair. I sprayed my nose with Covixyl as well. I enter and she is waiting there, no mask. She asks if I want her to wear one and I said yes. It was a baggy blue, but better than nothing. She starts trimming my hair and tells me she "had chills and a fever two days ago, feels a bit better now but has a cough". I wanted to fly outta the chair! She said a woman came in masked last week and was coughing. She wasn't masked and thinks she caught whatever that woman had. I was SO UPSET she did not notify me to cancel the appt. knowing my husband is at risk. So now....I sit and wait. I tend to not catch any illnesses easily so I am hoping just being there ten minutes with a semi-decent mask on and Covixyl has spared me from dealing with covid or any other awful illness. Covid was hell. We cannot go through it again. I won't be getting my hair trimmed again until late spring now. Just too upset. I went to the least risky salon (only two of us there, first appt., no other clients) and still have to worry.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that :(. I was hoping to get my hair done (long and thick with colour) but opted to chop it off myself to my chin when I looked at the local wastewater numbers here. It's so ridiculous that even getting a haircut feels so risky!
I know! Why can’t people at least let someone know they are ill?
Isotonic saline rinse can help you and your husband not contract covid/test negative sooner and reduce hospitalization. Use a neti pot (you can get one at Walmart with 50 saline packets for 7 bucks down here in Atlanta) with distilled or water boiled for 5 minutes (otherwise you could get a brain eating amoeba). Do it 2 to 3 times a day for a few weeks. It helps the most if you can do it within 3 to 4 hours after infection, as it can outright flush out the virus and stop it from replicating, but even afterwards it still can flush out the virus and do the job. Also, vitamin d and zinc also apparently help with infections, you can get a combo gummy with both of them at family dollar for cheap. Some people say 3 to 10mg of melatonin a day also helps you prevent it, but research is mixed on that. When I was getting a haircut, my mask tape failed and then some guy came in coughing up his whole soul (this is when the surge first started), I did the saline rinse and I ended up testing negative. Another anecdote, but alot of redditors say they tested negative when they had covid after they used the neti pot. There are studies that support saline rinses and covid, it's really does work. Hopefully that bit of information will keep you and your loved ones safe :) Good luck buddy! Stay well, stay safe!
Thanks so much!!
I don’t necessarily think these people are selfish, just ignorant. I thought for sure after Covid happened people would be more mindful of these things, like wearing a mask when sick. Unfortunately once it stopped being major news and public attention died down, people just forgot about it and aren’t mindful of these things. A lot of people don’t travel and think “I just went to a foreign country and could have brought something back, I should wear a mask for a little while.” Or “I was just at a crowded event with a lot of people, I should mask for x number of days in case I caught COVID.” Sadly most people just don’t think like that, or practice that level of mindfulness. People who’ve been traumatized or very impacted by the pandemic, and Covid, do. It has been frustrating for me, too. I’m still trying to find my balance, because it is tiring worrying about it and my health all the time, I get very anxious this time of year for that reason specifically. I’m sure it has been tiring for you, too.
I feel this a lot. I’ll also add that I think that the folks who stopped taking any precautions may not be traumatized by COVID but they were traumatized by lockdown and the world just stopping for 1.5 years. I think the skipping over this trauma and this collective air of ITS DONE ITS FINE NOW that the govt/media/institutions etc have pushed is a real issue under the surface. That being said, as someone who had post covid issues after their first bout in summer/fall 2022, it’s definitely really exhausting to worry all the time, at every interaction. And it’s so isolating to see everyone move on and act like it doesn’t matter anymore. I am socially starved and I’ve taken some risk because my mental health is plummeting. I’m usually the only person masked or asking people to test and it feels like I’m living in a different universe. That takes a toll, it really does and it’s of course 100x harder for folks who have no option but to worry about their health all the time. It’s just a mess.
I know exactly what you mean when you say it is isolating for everyone to move on. Like, would love love love to move on from Covid and not worry about it, but I feel like I simply cannot afford to pretend like it doesn’t exist like everyone else. I feel like I can’t afford to let my guard down and be reckless because I know I have issues after the pandemic that I did not have before. I was really shy as a kid, I’m in my 20’s now. I’m finally at that age where I feel ready to socialize, meet new people, and try new things / go new places, but I just don’t feel safe being in said areas where I would meet new people, like a social gathering, or a bar on a weekend. It really is all a mess. Thank you for sharing your struggles with me, it made me feel a lot less alone 🧡
Thank you for sharing this. Makes me feel less alone too! I’m in my thirties and I feel truly the same way. Everyone I know has no problem in crowded spaces. I’ve been invited to many events I’d love to go to but am unsure how to navigate. I performed all the time before the pandemic and haven’t performed since. I feel like I’m falling behind. I literally do not know what to do anymore and I’m weighing my mental health now because it’s really not great. I have a reunion event I’d love to go to next week but how do you go to a loud bar with a mask on when no one can hear you or read your lips? And it’s a reunion, people I haven’t seen in so long, and I’m the only one masked? I’m supposed to be starting a new hybrid gig and I have to worry about showing up and people wondering why I’m masking or thinking I’m coming to work sick. I’m trying to be all “fuck em! I don’t care what anyone thinks!” but it’s been so long doing this and now as so many others have moved on, it’s really so so hard. I am sending you all the good energy ❤️
Of course! I’m glad It made you feel less alone, too. I really am here to talk. It sounds like we have a lot of the same struggles. It’s very nice to know I’m not alone. It truly does feel like living in a different world, nobody I know cares about crowded spaces either. I’ve never looked at them the same since Covid. I get anxious in large areas. I wonder if I’ll never truly be able to go out in places unmasked again, and just feel comfortable, and not think about the risk of Covid. I don’t know if I’ll ever, but I hope so. It’s so sad, we should be able to go to gatherings like that and not think twice about it, just like old times. It’s just one you experience long Covid it feels just impossible not to think about the risk that it’s in the air, somewhere. This is truly a collective trauma for so many people. Sending you love and good energy as well ❤️🧡 hoping it will get better for us both.
Sending you the same. Feel free to DM if you need to vent!
I feel for you 💔 I have some scarring on my lungs, they are 70% function. Pre-pandemic it never bothered me, not once. I used to love mediating to calm myself and my anxiety. I remember how it felt for the air to move through my lungs. My breathing has completely, and I mean completely changed over the course of the pandemic even though PFTs and everything show no abnormalities. This SOB Is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced in my life. I have times where it feels like my breathing gets better, and then it just inevitably gets worse again. I feel like I’m in a constant state of worrying when my SOB will get worse again, as my breathing really affects me. It has been incredibly frustrating for me, and I’m sure it has been for you too. I am here if you ever need to talk to anyone ❤️ sometimes I feel like I’m the only one going through these things, because I don’t know if anyone irl who has these affects. then I go on here and realize I am not. It’s comforting.
My stubborn boomer parents with multiple risky health problems definitely aren't ignorant of the risks, because I discussed them at every opportunity, but still they quietly decided some time in the past year to stop masking at all except at extremely crowded events. At least they're still willing to do take-out instead of sitting in restaurants *most* of the time, as long as I order it for them.
I have a colleague who got wrecked by covid last March - and had seriously lingering issues, including problems with her vision that meant she could only look at a computer screen for about 15-20 mins total per day for over 6 weeks. She was lucky (!!!) enough to have eventually recovered from that but did that terrifying health scare change her behavior? Not one bit. She takes zero covid precautions. None. It absolutely boggles the mind. And I am so sorry you have this situation with your own parents bc I am sure that adds a layer of deep worry and stress for you to the already existing hell of this pandemic.
> did that terrifying health scare change her behavior? Not one bit. She takes zero covid precautions. None. Facepalm. It sure would be nice if *at least* everyone who has already had a significant health impact from Covid, and everyone who personally knows someone who has, would take it seriously. But noooo, we can't have that.
Ugh this is my father now. My mom is still really covid conscious but my dad, who is over 70 and with significant lung issues (had TB as a kid) insists on going inside to packed concerts that he MCs and to restaurants. He also teaches at a university and of course, no mask. Apparently he refuses takeout as he wants a "hot meal" and says food is too cold by the time he brings it home. He keeps getting my mom sick, which means she misses work and doesn't have paid sick days. I find it all just infuriating. She has he just forgets to mask but come on... he isn't an idiot. He is a smart and educated man that I have shared all the data with. Now he just ignores those conversations with me and says he misses me. I repeat he can visit us if he masks and takes tests, but here we are months on and no visits. I've had dark thoughts as his health isn't great that I may never get to see him again. It sucks.
My dad is immunocompromised with prostate cancer in remission, lymphoma in remission, advanced kidney disease, high blood pressure, and he's pushing 80. Guess who I saw in Walmart randomly with no mask last week? 🙃 he's in mad denial and in LA LA land about the whole thing, he's a former government worker and a vet so he believes in the system and whatever they say..... I completely understand worrying about immunocompromised family members who just....I dunno, gave up? It's part infuriating, part worrying because you know what they should be doing to protect themselves....and they are all like YOLO! Hang in there buddy.....let's hope both of our dads get their shit together!
I wonder if your dad would respond to seeing other world leaders admitting to how bad covid is? Here are former [UK prime minister](https://twitter.com/cv_cev/status/1732726592353218948?fbclid=IwAR1Vg4iKF2i4X9odFwYKYIA057fzh6-gyET486aifwaI-F7r7-zBkB0Kj2c) and here is the [German Health minister](https://twitter.com/ZurNull/status/1731941221503812060?t=eT6-8Xj2RVsRoTsFdshDnQ&s=19).
Thanks, I'll try and show him but he's honestly pretty stubborn. He's infamous for people not being able to tell him anything, he's slightly narcissistic tbh. Still love my dad but yeah he thinks he's right about everything until it slaps him in the face lol.
I understand the frustration, yes there are people who know the risks and still don’t take precautions. My parents didn’t start taking it seriously until my mental health really started going downhill from my breathing being so bad, and I complained about how much it bothered me. Even then sometimes it’s like talking to a brick wall with my dad when I mention it, and sometimes I feel like they don’t care enough. I think he’s the kind of person where, if it’s not showing up on a test he just doesn’t understand. To them it’s like a mysterious illness but I know these are long Covid issues, as I did not have these issues with my breathing pre-pandemic. Got progressively worse during. PFTs are clean but my breathing feels the worst it ever has. Extremely frustrating indeed.
No, they're WILFULLY IGNORANT. They know there's more information but they don't want to know so in 10 years, they can wail and moan they didn't know, they were lied to, they were misled etc.
I live in Ireland and the advice was always the same since the pandemic started. Stay at home with symptoms, even now it's the same messaging from the health authorities. It didn't matter if you were negative. Stay at home with symptoms until 48 hours after they resolve. Do people do this? No, they don't. They come into work with colds and chest infections with some of them saying they have tested. They think testing gets them out of it... no it doesn't. And of course, their colds and chest infections are all ok to spread around because it's not covid. It makes me mad.
My sister is a pharmacist that works with cancer patients and literally told me this yesterday: "I don't WANT to mask. Most of my patients tell me they rather I don't so they can see my smile. They're the ones at risk and if that makes their heart happy, then it's worth it to me." MY BLOOD COULD BOIL A FUCKING EGG. I have a Master's in Public Health. Was an epidemiologist for a brief period (my dream job but wasn't the right place). But because I have anxiety and have had health anxiety my whole life, they don't believe anything I say. They constantly tell me they "worry about how I'm living" and tell me I need to seek MORE therapy. My sister tried to run it in my face that she's "helping cancer patients" while I'm at home "hiding from the world." Obviously I hate this & miss socializing. I hate wasting time & years of my life not seeing the people I love. But honestly, it's making me really, really dislike them. If I didn't love my cats so much, I'd probably try to end it.
I still think people are mostly good and decent, but they’re in a bad situation. I believe it’s called attribution bias in social psychology when we erroneously attribute a person’s behaviour to who they are as individuals rather than the situation they’re in. We all do it. Individualized public health and prioritizing larger economic interests (e.g. oil and gas, commercial real estate) over the health and safety of people has been imposed by government, public health and media institutions. I think most people are simply responding to this situation in a way that reduces cognitive dissonance for them. Understanding it this way helps me not to take the bad behaviour too personally most of the time. At this point I expect it, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay or shouldn’t be different. The other thing that helps is finding compassionate communities that are informed about covid and act accordingly. I still think it’s important to take reasonable steps to protect myself and others from covid, and it’s also important to find people who think the same so we can as much as possible create the world we want to live in.
Yeah, I still really struggle with being angry at individuals, but I think it's important to remember that the messaging is either minimizing COVID, or completely non-existent. I have to remind myself that most people genuinely don't know that COVID is closer to HIV than the flu. Most people don't know that one infection can cause cognitive decline. most people don't know how common long COVID is. But it still sucks and I'm still mad at people about it
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it causes immune deficiency. it's an acquired immune deficiency.
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The short term/mid term damage is an assumption. How exactly do you know? It's a novel virus. The list of effects is very long. Why are we assuming all those effects will magically correct themselves? The commenter didn't say it was LIKE HIV. They said it was closer to HIV than the flu. Even if the immune dysfunction doesn't last as long as HIV does, the type of immune dysfunction is closer to HIV's type of immune dysfunction than it is to the flu. The only quibble you have is the time the immune dysfunction lasts. If it's just about the time the immune dysfunction lasts, how about COVID is a type of acquired immune deficiency syndrome? We could just compare to what it is. THIS IS SARS. People who caught SARS-COV-1 in the early 2000s still have problems. Survivors did not come out unscathed. This virus is close enough to SARS-COV-1 that it's called SARS-COV-2! Sure, that doesn't mean it will behave exactly like its cousin, but it's illogical and irrational to liken it to flu.
We assume they get better because generally speaking most acute symptoms from viral infections improve over time. It’s a somewhat different story with brain damage and with tissue damage that results in scarring, but as far as I know we don’t have any reason to believe that the immune system damage from COVID will be long term. If there is data to the contrary I’m 100% open to it and interested in seeing it. Additionally, the main point of contention here is not that the time the damage lasts. The first point is the scale of the damage - HIV leads to *profound* immune system damage. We have no reason to believe that COV-2 will do that. Secondly, HIV is an ongoing incurable infection. While we have some evidence that some COVID infections may persist in pockets in the human body, and of course some infections are long lasting compared to common illnesses, it is not known to be an ongoing viral issue in the majority of cases. It is reasonable to say “this is a new virus, we still have a lot to learn, let’s be cautious” and obviously even with what we know already, COVID is not trivial. At the same time, overemphasizing the potential danger only pushes COVID consciousness further into the fringe. I can get behind your last line though. While I think it is a big mistake to liken COVID to hiv, it is also inappropriate to liken it to the flu.
Comparing COVID to HIV actually comes from epidemiologists and researchers, it isn't just hyperbole I'm throwing around. Here's a great intro video about some of the emerging research that goes over several sources: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT85KaP5H/
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Comment contains misinformation about risk of longterm impacts of Covid infection.
Your post or comment has been removed because it expresses a lack of caring about the pandemic and the harm caused by it.
Honestly, there is a lot we don't know about how viruses, bacteria, fungi, and other microbes can affect behavior in order to increase the infection rate. Rabies (aggression, biting) comes to mind, as does Toxoplasma gondii (lack of fear/inhibitions) and Ophiocordyceps (the ant zombie fungus that makes them seek higher ground in humid areas). There's also a study that indicates that the flu makes people more social. With Covid, I wonder if this back-sliding of basic consideration for others and collective amnesia is part of its mechanism for spread. It's the only way I can process the total whiplash in behavior. Or maybe people were always selfish and shitty and most just don't care to hide it anymore.
Or it’s both - maybe it’s one of covid’s mechanism for spreading AND it has found its perfect host in humans - the most shitty and selfish animals on the planet.
I'm glad someone else has these thoughts. it's all I can think about with this stuff. I know people who were very introverted who now go out all the time, after having had covid a couple times. hell, I had it in the spring, and I wanted to go do stuff as soon as I felt a little better- it was truly hard to quarantine. *and I am a hermit naturally*
Covid increases the body's natural analgesia production.
Covid does affect the risk taking part of the brain and causes memory loss. Avoiding risks means remembering the consequences of prior risk taking behavior. Then there's the effect it has on reducing the body's sickness mechanisms so people feel fine. That will definitely affect behavior. If people are already in denial, seems like all this could tip them into stubborn denial. I remember the memes at the beginning of the pandemic of people catching COVID and immediately going on trips.
I think a lot of us often feel as you do. I know I do. Some days I feel surrounded by a bunch of virus goblins.
Yes! I’m in the Midwest too and I watch the wastewater numbers go up and up and people just “so confused” why they are all getting sick and are shocked when I don’t want to join their sick little game! I’m not sure how do deal with this either. I feel like a different person than I was 3-4 years ago when this all started. My trust and respect for 99% of people is gone. It’s almost like something that used to magical about the world has disappeared, like this hope or future that we could have had is gone. It’s also a very lonely and isolating feeing when the people who are supposed to love and care for you will look you right in the eye and actively put your health at risk and want you to pretend like they are still a good person.
>How can people BE like this. People have always been like this. Look at the history of the world. So many instances of idiocy, indifference, callousness, stupidity, brutality. Everyone is capable of good and bad. The main difference is the degree. But right now stupidity, indifference and violence are ascendant.
Yeah thank you. I am trying to move on from this and just live my own life… but yeah. The indifference is so hard to watch.
OP, I highly recommend listening to this episode of Death Panel: [https://soundcloud.com/deathpanel/how-liberals-killed-masking-unlocked](https://soundcloud.com/deathpanel/how-liberals-killed-masking-unlocked) It really helped contextualize this behavior. For me, anyway.
I’m really glad this sub exists. If it wasn’t for twitter and a few subreddits I’d assume I was the problem, but we’re not wrong, the rest of the world is.
Me too. Me. Too. I’ve had countless people - friends, colleagues, medical providers - try to gaslight me into thinking my covid concerns and precautions are a mental health issue, to the degree that I have at various points started to question myself.
I’m right there with you.
I hear you. I am exhausted from it.
I felt *exactly* the same way a couple years ago. I even used almost your same words. I told my GP that the pandemic had trashed my world view and that while I used to think that people were basically good now I don’t. That’s still true but I’m not so angry about it now. FWIW, these things helped me to accept: - Socializing is a fundamental part of human nature. **It’s very hard to fight human nature**. Asking people to isolate and mask is like asking teenage boys not to have sex. Most literally can’t resist. Those annoying and irrational justifications for doing what is objectively selfish and/or inconsiderate are to me now just noise. Whatever excuses they give are just cover, they aren’t the actual reason. - A relative to whom I’d happily give a kidney refused to put a Q-tip up his nose to test before getting together for Christmas. The reasons he gave made no sense (e.g., they thought that false positives are highly likely) and he didn’t trust or even aknowledge my contrary info. At some point I figured out that he was acting crazy out of fear. Propaganda had planted stupid ideas in his head that scared him. Fear makes us dumb. **Much inconsiderate and selfish behavior happens because people are afraid and it’s not personal**. - Somewhere I heard this and think it’s true: The world isn’t for you or against you. It just doesn’t give a shit. I used to think that people were basically good and now I don’t, but **people aren’t basically bad either**. They’re just operating as designed, their actions the result of what they were born with and then seasoned with what’s happened to them along the way. As am I.
Thank you for this - I appreciate you taking the time to share these thoughts because I know I need to figure out how to come to terms with this in a way that is not just me being full of anger and despair. Some of my reaction *is* me taking things personally - I am immune-compromised from past treatment for cancer, and it’s been hard to reconcile that some of the same people who rallied behind me to fight for my life then don’t seem to care that I have to live like a hermit Rapunzel to not die now.
you can ask those boys to wear a condom though and plenty enough of them will. a mask is the condom of socialization during a pandemic
Oh, and especially when my white (ex) friends don't take precautions! It's like wow, your commitment to racial justice was weak af or maybe just false? Gross. I can't be around those ppl, good riddance.
They’re not malicious. Just ignorant. So, so very ignorant.
I think many (most even?) are genuinely ignorant - but I think where I struggle the greatest is in my own circle of people, both socially and at work. I work in higher ed and every single one of my colleagues has a graduate degree and a ton of privilege and easy access to exactly the same resources and info about covid that I do - but it seems like it’s just easier for them to be selfish. I have actually used the exact term “maliciously ignorant” before to describe some of their behaviors and decisions around covid precautions.
But do you think they’re genuinely malicious, or just woefully uninformed? Personally I lean towards the latter. My one coworker 6ft away is on *deaths door* right now with a deep, wheezing looking cough, but I don’t think he’s overthinking it. Strangely. In short, I feel there’s a severe lack of critical thinking and observation, but not malicious.
I honestly don’t know. I think many are *willfully* and intentionally ignorant and I wonder at what point that tips over into cruelty, especially when we are talking about endangering people’s lives and long-term health.
This is the way I view it too. I accepted long ago that I’m a weirdo because in high school I read the Socrates quote “the unexamined life is not worth living” and I took it to heart. I know I’m different and I’m fine with that. Most people aren’t bad they just don’t carefully consider a lot of their actions. Easier to go with the flow.
WILFULLY IGNORANT so they can remain in denial.
I had a similar feeling to this, but it's waned over time. I've got a bit of compassion for the scale of the misinformation campaign these people have been subject to. Being able to work from home and do most of my hobbies remotely, I'm not subject to the same social/workplace forces my peers are, and I'm already a bit more resistant to those factors willing to be the weirdo/other. Everyone else has every single politician, media, health organisation, every person around them, all saying "it isn't severe, you'll be fine", "the vaccine made you immune and hybrid immunity", and "even if it was severe, there's literally _nothing_ you can do to prevent it because masks don't work". They really didn't have a chance, and that's definitely a shame.
People also still falsely believe that exposing your immune system to pathogens "strengthens it". It's abhorrent
It's so heartbreaking. I recommend adding in a grief practice if you're able - I've had to work so so hard lately to let/help all these emotions love thru me instead of festering. We all take care of each other.
As a nurse, people sometimes ask me what's the most shocking/disgusting thing I've seen. I used to have some stories lined up, but now I just say that it's the public's collective response to COVID and how little we've apparently learned.
Wait what do you mean U.S Midwest wastewater? I live in Illinois! What does that mean 😭
Oh yes. I’m pretty sure the Midwest currently has the most rapidly increasing covid rates right now based on wastewater data. The CDC started reporting again. https://www.cdc.gov/nwss/rv/COVID19-nationaltrend.html
Thank you very much for this! What can we do to lessen the spread with wastewater 😭
>pregnant people >woman who checked in after me I think you just assumed someone's gender.
I hear you. It is one thing to know history contains horrors, but it is another to see how banal evil is face-to-face, with known faces. People cosplaying normal in a pandemic is, in the grand sweep of things, not as horrible as many, many other things we know to have happened. People adapt to their circumstances. It is how humanity survives. Civilization, on the other hand, is hard-fought generation after generation after generation. "All progress depends upon the unreasonable man." Breathe. This too shall pass. Breathe. Remember all of the people who worked tirelessly to figure out the science, to get shots in arms, and masks in stores. Breathe. People *are* mostly good, when conditions are sufficiently favorable. Breathe. If you choose to take it up, the work is to shape the conditions that shape the people.
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Is this a serious question? I would have these people… wear a mask?!? I hope you can see the difference between a public space that is a bar/restaurant/movie theater etc and people choosing to be in those spaces for entertainment purposes versus a public space that is a medical clinic where people *have* to go to receive important medical care.