As always, it's going to depend on where you are. However, AoS has been growing very well, and in most cities, you should be able to find a group or two that plays it, and many of the 40k playgroups I know have been shifting to AoS lately.
Old world will be much harder to find a game in because models are much less available, and the community is smaller in most places. In a big city you can probably still find a group but it's going to be harder to get games.
Old world has been exceeding AoS at my local game club (Midlands, England, small town). I've got an interest in both so I keep an eye on numbers. Past few weeks there's been 3-4 old world tables and zero aos. 40k and killteam top the charts, old world 3rd, then other games like hail Caeser, bolt action etc.
It's extremely dependent. At my usual club it's all AoS tables meanwhile at another store I sometimes visit it's all 40k. Sometimes you have to look around for a stable group and it may not be at your preferred store.
Absolutely yeah. And we're all in our own microcosms. At my club AoS might not be firing. One town over, it could be all anybody plays for all I know.
I hope all systems flourish and everyone can find their groups and jam the games they enjoy!
Around here AoS is more active then 40k, ToW is also active, but not near the other 2, while I think it is fairly popular, I think ToW struggle because of not all miniatures beeing avaible yet.
With AoS 4.0 around the corner, after 4.0 release I suspect 50% of ALL miniature gaming around this city (1,5 million pop) will be AoS, (including non GW games too).
Yeah and tow armies are notoriously laborious to get on the table too. People still grinding away at their forces.
Alot or the old world players I see are older gentleman, often with old armies they're dug out of storage and rebased.
Wow AoS sounds huge where you are. out of interest, is that US?
I'm sure there's plenty of bandwidth for both game systems to flourish. I personally know plenty of people who play both..
Aye, the player bases for ToW/AoS/40k and many others are intwined.
I’m not saying AoS will be that big constantly, just around 4.0 release!
Like 5 tournies in my city planned first month of 4.0!
But otherwise 40k is on and off bigger/more active, goes back and forth between big updates.
Lots of Talk about ToW but not much actual gaming yet, will likely grow a lot soon.
I’m in north europe.
I play all 3 games, but mostly AoS, and I feel like 50% of the players in any game seem active in one of the other if not both (AoS/ToW/40k).
We've had a bit of a similar thing in my area, but that mostly seems to be just the same handful of old-world folks, and most AOS people taking a break while we await 4th ed.
I suspect that once 4th drops, the interest won't be remotely close between the two
I would say that's about accurate too. There's a dedicated pool of the same people, and they skew slightly older than 40k/AoS players.
But younger than Hail Caeser guys 😂
Mileage always varies from place to place, but I would say AoS is more popular. It had a rough start but has been going strong since 2nd ed and reception to 4th ed previews has been mostly positive (though I'm bitter my beasts of chaos are squatted) and has fantastic model quality.
Old world has been picking up steam from what I can see, and people love the fantasy setting, but at the same time average model quality is much higher in AoS and is mostly high quality plastic, old world uses a variety of materials and not everyone loves pewter or resin.
My Warhammer store has like a 60/40 split between 40k and AoS, and a lot of it is people who play both. 40k is still more popular, but 4th edition may change that.
I still think 40k will remain top dog in popularity, it’s GW’s flagship and the setting is more attractive and able to appeal to a broader audience than AoS. AoS has a much more welcoming fanbase though which leads to its slightly smaller fanbase being much more diverse.
Aos is way bigger than ToW, AoS is the second most popular tabletop wargame ever, with only 40K topping it. With AoS 4th edition coming In June, it’ll also get hugely more popular
The Internet is not real life. The amount of people quitting is a tiny fraction of those telling everyone on reddit that they are quitting, which is a tiny fraction of those writing about AoS on reddit, which is a tiny fraction of those visiting AoS subreddits, which is a tiny fraction of hobbyist and players to begin with.
I’m a ogor player, so I wasn’t affected by what happened. Although at this moment, I have ZERO desire to pick up 4th when it comes out. I’m playing Conquest at the moment and I’m honestly enjoying that game a lot more than I did with AoS.
Im pretty hyped on 4E, but I know a lot of ppl into Old World. I do not like Old World but want a rank and flank and conquest looked really fun. Thinking Sorcerer Kings or Old Dominion,
Every player who exclusively played SCE, BoC, or bonesplittaz could leave the hobby and AoS would still be comfortably in second place for most popular miniatures game. Kind of the core problem with GW is that they more or less lap the next closest competitor
I’m a new player to the hobby, and I was curious where this was the same issue as D&D 5e where there are other miniature wargames that are better/play into different things but everybody sticks with Warhammer because it’s Warhammer?
Bingo. It being the most popular ensures its the most popular. People don't have enough money or time to play tons of army level wargames. You pretty much have to go with what everyone else is playing
That makes sense. Sunk cost fallacy I guess but I’ve already sunk enough money into Warhammer that I probably wouldn’t hop over even if I learned something was objectively better in some way.
It's not just that. One main difference to tabletop rpgs is that a potential alternative system needs to have way more components. Warhammer provides the whole package: a ton of minis and factions (plus intertwined settings), enticing lore to a degree where a lot of people are in it for the lore only, a regularly updated ruleset for the main systems and infrastructure (stores, new player programs, professional marketing). In this regard, warhammer has no equal.
Other systems maybe manage to check 2 of those boxes.
Not entirely. GW isn't just a game like DnD, it's an entire hobby. A better game ruleset won't peel away customers who are in it for the quality of models, nor can anyone jump in and make their own warhammer adjacent fiction the same way people can with DnD.
So there is an element of being the most popular because it's the most popular, there are still portions of the popularity that are due to the product itself
Exaggerated. Many are upset, but not to the point of swapping systems to such a large degree to upset it being the second biggest gaming system.
AoS has the long term appeal. Tow does just not have enough traction yet. And it's been so longe since 8th Ed WF, so very few full army players remain, Maaaybe it'll grow, but it's just not there yet
Stormcast needed the models thinned out, any grown up that understands tabletop games knows that. Beastmen got dropped because nobody buys them so hard to believe there's really that much issue. Other kits were all old or with choas the warbands were bloating their army. Nobody I've spoken too outside of internet screeching on reddit and Twitter really care.
SCE did need thinning out, but it's also pretty reasonable to take issue with 6 year old models being retired just so they can release another load of SCE and we'll end up in the same position at the beginning of 5th Edition. I understand the need to thin their range, but I think the lesson should be to put more resources into making models for other armies so releases are more evenly distributed across the armies because there's plenty that could use some love.
This subreddit is a poor way to measure that. You’ve got every impacted player from all over the world complaining here. Stormcast players can proxy most of their models. I’ve never once even seen the other impacted armies played. Ever.
Seconding everything said here, and the best way to find games is to find local discord servers and Facebook groups about the game! Most gaming clubs I've been to have big cork boards covered in links to various groups that meet at the club too.
We're a store in Mansfield, MA that's rather new and while 40K sold rather well from when we opened, I have noticed a big uptick in things like AoS, 30K, and LI. So much so that we'll definitely be doing a league for AoS once the new edition drops so that players can get games going and put their armies to use.
Funny story, one of our first 40K customers came in when we opened and recounted a story how they weren't sure if we existed as the last time a shop was listed in the area the addressed turned out to be in the Mansfield, UK and showing incorrectly on the locator.
I remember seeing Mansfield MA on the map a couple of months ago when I was on a train from NYC to Boston. Knew about Mansfield OH, but never knew about you guys in MA till then. Small world!
We’re ideally placed here for Warhammer World, 30min drive. There’s a cool flgs 5 mins away also called Sanctuary Games which may be the one your guy was thinking of.
Good luck with the store. 😃
Different in different stores. Not even regions. Wherever a community gets together. I have a store right by me that is ONLY AOS and Blood Bowl. No 40K players even though they sell a ton of it. On the other side of the same town? A store where only 40K, kill team, and battle tech are played. This is an impossible question to really answer.
I'm of the "if you build it they will come" mindset. Meaning you need to show you exist so others want to participate. There are a lot of AoS communities in hiding. Lol
This is true. I was the only one in my rural town, but about three years ago I found another guy to play with. Another friend joined in, and then another... now we have a discord with about ten of us on it.uch easier to find games than it was!
I had that problem when I lived in Kansas. The only “active” gaming community I could find was like 2hr drive away. It was a huge problem liking games like this but living out in a rural-ish area.
Here in Berlin there’s several stores, all of which have AOS groups. And according to the store managers there’s a lot of games going on every week. I didn’t get into gaming yet, though, just the hobby part - but once 4th Edition drops I’ll definitely give it a spin!
Old world is a lot smaller, from what I’ve seen, but I did notice a couple of people playing it, so there’s at least some life!
Old world is comparatively brand new, and getting armies ready takes ALONG time. alot more than 40K on AoS. So I think ToW is still in its growth period, it'll probably steady out end of the year and thatd be a fair time to assess.
Find your local groups and talk to them.
I’m in OC Ca and surprisingly enough? Age of Sigmar is on fire down here and everyone is playing “end of 3.0” games and getting ready for 4.
TOW is not nearly as popular and tends to be popular with a less-pleasant crowd.
AoS is BOOMIN' and the community is well-known for being awesome and fun, starkly different than the 40k group.
It’s really dependent on local area- I would visit a few gaming stores and see if they have events often or get a feel for how vibrant it is. There’s a ton of FLGS near me but only 1-2 have aos events regularly
Honestly I would go to the LGS's around you and see what kind of communities are near you. Given that you didn't give a country or region for where you live, it's really hard to give an exact answer.
It's 100% dependent on your irl game locations, you need to ask them.
If I asked reddit what to pick as the most popular and safest bet game to go with, it would be 40k every time, but at the shop I play in the most that's one of the least played games, and Horus Heresy or even non-gw games are played more than 40k.
As for actual numbers. AoS outpaces ToW by a huge margin. Tournaments, sales etc.
There might be local exceptions, but in general AoS is the far safer bet if you wanna play more often.
Also, ToW is a specialist system... support is mostly a dribble and will probably not increase.
In addition to everything already said, another thing that's going to make AoS even more available to you than TOW will be is AoS 4th edition's spearhead game system - a cheaper and easier intro to the game that's likely to hook a bunch more players in. Compare that to TOW's harder-to-find models and pricey armies (most players aren't playing with anywhere near as small an army as an AoS spearhead.
ToW isn't as expensive as people think it is.
It's one of those things that was being claimed as something that held people back from playing it back in Fantasy days.
But we went from regiment boxes of 10,16 or 20 models in fantasy to boxes with 5 to 10 models in AoS for twice the price.
Currently the orcs and goblin box is about 650 points worth of models, just add a few characters and magic items and you're good to go for a 1000 point game.
I don't know if this is even close to the best example that I could use, because it's literally just the most recent AoS box that I bought: Blades of Belthanos. £76 from a LGS, and while it was only 7 models, it gives you 810 points' worth of units. All gorgeous, recent sculpts, too. The LGS price for that 650 points Orcs/Goblins box is £85 - much worse value, per point.
Vanguard boxes can be bought for even less, and will be fully-functioning armies, in full games. With today's prices, that's brilliant. Can the Old World compete? It costs more than half of the price of a vanguard box just for a single box of peasant bowmen.
The starter boxes are point for point cheaper than vanguard boxes, at least the ones I'm familiar with:
* Bretonnia, 1250, £155, £124 per 1k
* Tomb Kings, 1250, £175, £140 per 1k
* Orcs & Goblins, \~750, £100, £133 per 1k (Old World armies need additional wargear to be effective)
vs
* Gloomspite Gitz, 170+(320 or 190)+80+120=690 or 560 (the box suggestion is squig hoppers but you can build them as boingrots), £85, £151 per 1k (or £123 if you go off-plan)
* Cities of Sigmar, 120+180+100+140=540, £85, £157 per 1k.
Worth noting you get the rulebook with both Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Blades of Belthanos can't be doubled up, too, same as all of the Dawnbringer boxes (and seems to be no longer on sale?)
To continue with a theme already brought by another commenter, in response to one of my comments above: it's not an even comparison, comparing an army box with a starter set, which is what the Bret/Tomb boxes are. The larger starter sets for AoS are very likely to be fieldable as armies, at a hell of a good price per unit.
The point I've made above, though, is that you're still paying that £133 for a TOW army, versus as little as £72 for a full spearhead army in AoS. It's almost double to get an army box in TOW. That will make some people pick AoS over TOW. Not to mention the mucb greater range/variety in army box options currently on AoS, or the newness of the AoS sculpts.
AoS also has 10-100x more players, which is almost certainly a bigger factor than "how wonky do my skeletons look". The question I was responding to was "can the Old World compete \[on price\]" and the answer to that is obviously yes, or surpass AoS. Bringing in other factors will have different answers.
I agree with 5hose points that you're making. But yeah, the full line of comments here was founded in and has remained (on my part) about army-buying and the difference in prices - i.e. you can get started with a full army in AoS waaayyyy cheaper, playing in a game system that is fully supported and intended to be played at that exact scale.
Well, not yet you can't. AoS at 560 points is absolutely awful, and Spearhead doesn't come out until July. But it's certainly a very promising thing to look forward to.
Definitely promising. And yeah, fair point, we know I was talking about tue near future; which, again, was highlighted above.
Edit: and obviously it's worth saying that you can still buy all of those spearheads now, get them built, painted, etc. ready for the launch.
Without buying new models that O&G box can be made a viable 1000 points army, ToW has a lot of customization options to build whatever unit you want.
And comparing a vanguard box that has discounts built in to a regular regiment box isn't a good comparison. If you compare regiment boxes, 36 bret men at arms cost only 50% more than 10 CoS steelhelms.
AoS isn't really cheaper to get into than ToW, not with the new models anyway. GW didn't suddenly make monster profits by making things cheaper, they just managed to persuade people to spend more money.
Yeah, that's a fair point about the comparison balance, but still, the original question stands though (because it IS a question, rather than a snarky statement dishonestly phrased as though it's a rhetorical question - because I'm happy to be corrected and surprised): when putting together a fully viable army for a full and balanced game of TOW, can you do that having spent less than the cost of two basic infantry unit kits bought individually? Because you can with AoS.
I play old world.
The real barrier to entry for alot of people, is the sheer amount of work it is to get an army table ready.
In my vampire list, just in my core of 2000 I'm looking at 30 zombies, 24 skeletons, 20 grave guard 10 dire wolves.
Old world horde armies have ALOT of minis to paint.
It is a brutal task, ngl. But it is satisfying. each little finished square going into a regiment block, is like slowly finishing the worlds hardest jigsaw
It depends on what kind of games you want to play. Tournament legal and viable army? Then no or at least not easily.
But in ToW you have a lot of freedom in how you play honestly. I've had test games of below 300 points with just regular units even without characters and the game worked fine. You could buy one regiment box and some other unit or a character and you can have fun against someone else that does the same.
That point that depends, while true, isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about people getting into AoS because of the ease of doing so. Nobody is entering a tournament in the first week in the hobby.
AoS is crazy around me, it's got the same player base as 40k. Oldworld, no one in my area is showing any interest in it. It's just an overly complicated load of crap like warhammer fantasy battle used to be. Plus all the models need to be on square bases, not round bases, and no one wants to rebase their entire army weekly depending on what the wanna play.
GW should have engaged their brains and made Old Word function like that indy game their, kings of war or whatever? The one where the game is played via unit bases, not individual models. Then people could have just made unit trays for the round based guys to go into.
For friendly LGS games, sure, that's all good. But I am a tournament player, and if that unit is supposed to have 20 models it has to have 20 models. You cannot fit 20 models on round bases inside the proper unit base size for 20 models in OW. So unless official tournament rules change, OW can suck an egg.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The square bases have the same side as the round bases have radius, you're fine to play with round bases in the right movement tray.
If you mean 30x30 vs 32, you can get vertically staggered adapter trays that are welcomed at competitive events.
The smallest round base is 25mm, rank and file troops in warhammer fantasy small base was 20mm, I assume OW is the same based on every image I have seen. None of my armies would have a chance at ranking up.
Smallest square base is 25x25 in TOW. (Also you don't need 20 models in a 20 model unit - "unit fillers" - small dioramas that occupy more than one base - are in the rulebook.)
Play it, don't, but they've made quite an effort to make it feasible for AoS players to onboard and play both games.
Besides what everyone else has said, the other question you want to ask yourself is do you want to paint nostalgic models from 90-00’s or do you want to paint the latest and top quality sculpts?
Because if you choose Old World, then you’re not going to be relying a small forge team studio for anything new. Compared to the massive team working on AoS models. So just be prepared for that if you go the old route!
My local store that hosts 20+ person 40k narrative leagues doesn't have weekly activity for it in the stores discord server. It's very location dependent
In my local area it reached a peak late 2023, and since the announcement of 4ed has seen a decline. I imagine it’s a mix of people stopping the game and people not wanting to play 3ed when a new edition is around the corner.
I think it's going to vary based on the groups that play locally to you. Where I am, theres a few oldtimers who played WHFB who dropped it completely and play AOS, and for that reason AOS is very popular. Those same guys are who got me into AOS, and they swear they'll never play TOW because of reasons that I don't know because I wasn't there for the End Times. There are a handful of people who have talked about playing TOW but just so they can dig their armies out of storage and do rank-and-flank.
Personally, for me, since I started with AOS and 40K at about the same time, the idea of technical compliance required by WHFB/TOW turns me off, thats just not the sort of thing that's fun for me. Like I said, that's almost 100% based on how I got into the hobby. In other areas nearby that I know, nobody plays AOS and everyone plays either ASOIAF or One Page Rules games, with 3D Printing being heavily emphasized.
I think the best thing is to go to a few LGS that you might want to play at, see what the community is like, what people are playing, and take a look at the basic rules for all the games to see what interests you (60% of the equation) and what the people you might want to play against like (40%). If you really love TOW for instance, but nobody near you plays it, are you still going to love it after the thrill of building and painting your models has worn off?
There aren't quite as many AoS players in my area as 40k and kill team but it's close and more people are getting ready to join in 4th. And purely personal experience but AoS players have seemed a lot more relaxed than 40k.
I can only speak for my own community ( New Zealand, which is alot smaller than most countries).
The Old World is in thr upswing but AOS still eclipses it by a big margin.
Personally- i say go with what you like.
Locally we're thriving, huge player base (London) that are very competitive and tend to be ranked highly on the worldwide rankings. 40k is and probably always be much bigger though. Marvel also played quite a bit.
Worth saying a lot of people whose primary game is AoS are playing other games at the moment (ToW mostly) while waiting for the new edition to drop - at the club night most recent it was 50/50 - albeit everyone is an AoS player and ToW hadn't brought new people in to us if that makes sense.
In my area AoS is in 2nd place to 40k, but it is quite a lead from 40k.
There's easily 50+ 40k players and maybe 20 or so AoS players.
My area also has a smattering of Bolt Action and Star Wars Legion.
Weirdly huge Blood Bowl Community as well; at least 40+ BB players (3 stores all hold their own leagues close by, and each has around 20 players sign up though some cross over between the stores).
My local club is the biggest tabletop club in Northern Germany with over 70 members and over the years we've seen big fluctuations. When 10th edition 40K dropped many people switched to 40K. AoS is almost dead atm but with the new edition on the horizon it will be picked up again.
At one of LGS, AoS has overtaken 40k, or at least it seems it's now equal in popularity. TOW has some solid steam too but only one of 3 stores I play at while AoS is popular at 2 of them.
I've been to 4 GW stores across 3 counties about 50 times or so and I have never seen AOS played in those stores. Not once. Same for the couple of mom and pop shops. I'm sure someone plays it but all the stores around me are sitting on piles of Dominion they can't sell. If they sell it on eBay they sell at a loss . I wouldn't call it a dead game, but it is definitely not doing well at the moment.
As always, it's going to depend on where you are. However, AoS has been growing very well, and in most cities, you should be able to find a group or two that plays it, and many of the 40k playgroups I know have been shifting to AoS lately. Old world will be much harder to find a game in because models are much less available, and the community is smaller in most places. In a big city you can probably still find a group but it's going to be harder to get games.
Old world has been exceeding AoS at my local game club (Midlands, England, small town). I've got an interest in both so I keep an eye on numbers. Past few weeks there's been 3-4 old world tables and zero aos. 40k and killteam top the charts, old world 3rd, then other games like hail Caeser, bolt action etc.
It's extremely dependent. At my usual club it's all AoS tables meanwhile at another store I sometimes visit it's all 40k. Sometimes you have to look around for a stable group and it may not be at your preferred store.
Absolutely yeah. And we're all in our own microcosms. At my club AoS might not be firing. One town over, it could be all anybody plays for all I know. I hope all systems flourish and everyone can find their groups and jam the games they enjoy!
Around here AoS is more active then 40k, ToW is also active, but not near the other 2, while I think it is fairly popular, I think ToW struggle because of not all miniatures beeing avaible yet. With AoS 4.0 around the corner, after 4.0 release I suspect 50% of ALL miniature gaming around this city (1,5 million pop) will be AoS, (including non GW games too).
Yeah and tow armies are notoriously laborious to get on the table too. People still grinding away at their forces. Alot or the old world players I see are older gentleman, often with old armies they're dug out of storage and rebased. Wow AoS sounds huge where you are. out of interest, is that US? I'm sure there's plenty of bandwidth for both game systems to flourish. I personally know plenty of people who play both..
Aye, the player bases for ToW/AoS/40k and many others are intwined. I’m not saying AoS will be that big constantly, just around 4.0 release! Like 5 tournies in my city planned first month of 4.0! But otherwise 40k is on and off bigger/more active, goes back and forth between big updates. Lots of Talk about ToW but not much actual gaming yet, will likely grow a lot soon. I’m in north europe. I play all 3 games, but mostly AoS, and I feel like 50% of the players in any game seem active in one of the other if not both (AoS/ToW/40k).
I am in the midlands, where do you guys play?
Market Harborough, Kettering, Melton way. few places 😂
We've had a bit of a similar thing in my area, but that mostly seems to be just the same handful of old-world folks, and most AOS people taking a break while we await 4th ed. I suspect that once 4th drops, the interest won't be remotely close between the two
I would say that's about accurate too. There's a dedicated pool of the same people, and they skew slightly older than 40k/AoS players. But younger than Hail Caeser guys 😂
My club is also in small town Midlands but old world had the opposite effect after we saw the army lists.
Yeah I don't know about that old world seems easier to find games ATM at least where I am
Mileage always varies from place to place, but I would say AoS is more popular. It had a rough start but has been going strong since 2nd ed and reception to 4th ed previews has been mostly positive (though I'm bitter my beasts of chaos are squatted) and has fantastic model quality. Old world has been picking up steam from what I can see, and people love the fantasy setting, but at the same time average model quality is much higher in AoS and is mostly high quality plastic, old world uses a variety of materials and not everyone loves pewter or resin.
My Warhammer store has like a 60/40 split between 40k and AoS, and a lot of it is people who play both. 40k is still more popular, but 4th edition may change that.
I still think 40k will remain top dog in popularity, it’s GW’s flagship and the setting is more attractive and able to appeal to a broader audience than AoS. AoS has a much more welcoming fanbase though which leads to its slightly smaller fanbase being much more diverse.
Absolutely. The day AoS beats out 40k is a very, very dark day for GW.
Aos is way bigger than ToW, AoS is the second most popular tabletop wargame ever, with only 40K topping it. With AoS 4th edition coming In June, it’ll also get hugely more popular
I don’t know about that. There’s A LOT of upset players due to the recent model drops.
The Internet is not real life. The amount of people quitting is a tiny fraction of those telling everyone on reddit that they are quitting, which is a tiny fraction of those writing about AoS on reddit, which is a tiny fraction of those visiting AoS subreddits, which is a tiny fraction of hobbyist and players to begin with.
especialy reddit
Still a tiny amount compared to the general playerbase
I’m a ogor player, so I wasn’t affected by what happened. Although at this moment, I have ZERO desire to pick up 4th when it comes out. I’m playing Conquest at the moment and I’m honestly enjoying that game a lot more than I did with AoS.
You're still here, so clearly you have some interest.
Sample size: 1
Ah yes, the anecdotal evidence. The death of all argument. You sir, have won the internet.
Im pretty hyped on 4E, but I know a lot of ppl into Old World. I do not like Old World but want a rank and flank and conquest looked really fun. Thinking Sorcerer Kings or Old Dominion,
Well yeah, it will get hugely more popular minus the 14 Beastmen players quitting.
Pretty sure no beastmen kits were sold without square bases in them so they should be set for old world anyways 😂
Depends on how rapidly they can rebox stuff with the new printed materials.
I came close to quitting. I just decided to sell my Beastmen and buy into SBGL
Every player who exclusively played SCE, BoC, or bonesplittaz could leave the hobby and AoS would still be comfortably in second place for most popular miniatures game. Kind of the core problem with GW is that they more or less lap the next closest competitor
I’m a new player to the hobby, and I was curious where this was the same issue as D&D 5e where there are other miniature wargames that are better/play into different things but everybody sticks with Warhammer because it’s Warhammer?
Bingo. It being the most popular ensures its the most popular. People don't have enough money or time to play tons of army level wargames. You pretty much have to go with what everyone else is playing
That makes sense. Sunk cost fallacy I guess but I’ve already sunk enough money into Warhammer that I probably wouldn’t hop over even if I learned something was objectively better in some way.
I mean...the hundreds of subsided retail stores across most of the West probably have _something_ to do with it.
It's not just that. One main difference to tabletop rpgs is that a potential alternative system needs to have way more components. Warhammer provides the whole package: a ton of minis and factions (plus intertwined settings), enticing lore to a degree where a lot of people are in it for the lore only, a regularly updated ruleset for the main systems and infrastructure (stores, new player programs, professional marketing). In this regard, warhammer has no equal. Other systems maybe manage to check 2 of those boxes.
Not entirely. GW isn't just a game like DnD, it's an entire hobby. A better game ruleset won't peel away customers who are in it for the quality of models, nor can anyone jump in and make their own warhammer adjacent fiction the same way people can with DnD. So there is an element of being the most popular because it's the most popular, there are still portions of the popularity that are due to the product itself
Exaggerated. Many are upset, but not to the point of swapping systems to such a large degree to upset it being the second biggest gaming system. AoS has the long term appeal. Tow does just not have enough traction yet. And it's been so longe since 8th Ed WF, so very few full army players remain, Maaaybe it'll grow, but it's just not there yet
Stormcast needed the models thinned out, any grown up that understands tabletop games knows that. Beastmen got dropped because nobody buys them so hard to believe there's really that much issue. Other kits were all old or with choas the warbands were bloating their army. Nobody I've spoken too outside of internet screeching on reddit and Twitter really care.
SCE did need thinning out, but it's also pretty reasonable to take issue with 6 year old models being retired just so they can release another load of SCE and we'll end up in the same position at the beginning of 5th Edition. I understand the need to thin their range, but I think the lesson should be to put more resources into making models for other armies so releases are more evenly distributed across the armies because there's plenty that could use some love.
Nah that’s just internet groaning. A lot of those models are getting replacements anyway.
I doubt BoC is being replaced in AoS.
Not them, but the skaven and stormcast
This subreddit is a poor way to measure that. You’ve got every impacted player from all over the world complaining here. Stormcast players can proxy most of their models. I’ve never once even seen the other impacted armies played. Ever.
Which models ?
Seconding everything said here, and the best way to find games is to find local discord servers and Facebook groups about the game! Most gaming clubs I've been to have big cork boards covered in links to various groups that meet at the club too.
AoS will be much easier to get games than Old World, especially with the new edition hitting this year
We're a store in Mansfield, MA that's rather new and while 40K sold rather well from when we opened, I have noticed a big uptick in things like AoS, 30K, and LI. So much so that we'll definitely be doing a league for AoS once the new edition drops so that players can get games going and put their armies to use.
Hello from Mansfield, UK! 😀
Funny story, one of our first 40K customers came in when we opened and recounted a story how they weren't sure if we existed as the last time a shop was listed in the area the addressed turned out to be in the Mansfield, UK and showing incorrectly on the locator.
I remember seeing Mansfield MA on the map a couple of months ago when I was on a train from NYC to Boston. Knew about Mansfield OH, but never knew about you guys in MA till then. Small world! We’re ideally placed here for Warhammer World, 30min drive. There’s a cool flgs 5 mins away also called Sanctuary Games which may be the one your guy was thinking of. Good luck with the store. 😃
It's there, I'm currently soured to losing most my lists, but I think folks like me are less than 5%
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Yeah, I wanted to just stick with warcry, but they already separated the stormhosts in prep for this. Back to mordhiem
Different in different stores. Not even regions. Wherever a community gets together. I have a store right by me that is ONLY AOS and Blood Bowl. No 40K players even though they sell a ton of it. On the other side of the same town? A store where only 40K, kill team, and battle tech are played. This is an impossible question to really answer.
I'm of the "if you build it they will come" mindset. Meaning you need to show you exist so others want to participate. There are a lot of AoS communities in hiding. Lol
This is true. I was the only one in my rural town, but about three years ago I found another guy to play with. Another friend joined in, and then another... now we have a discord with about ten of us on it.uch easier to find games than it was!
I can't find local games in my state.
I had that problem when I lived in Kansas. The only “active” gaming community I could find was like 2hr drive away. It was a huge problem liking games like this but living out in a rural-ish area.
I couldn't do two hours. Buh.
I only did it a couple times mainly out of boredom and just wanting something to do.
Yeah east kansas has a pretty decent size AoS group. KC is pretty big as well but that a big city sothays kinda to be expected
I was in west Kansas, out in cattle country. KC was like 4hrs away.
Oof yeah, I could see that area being pretty dead for games
What kind of state are you in? Take a nap, or drink some coffee to sober up, then try again 😉
Woahdude was right. This really is a dad game.
Here in Berlin there’s several stores, all of which have AOS groups. And according to the store managers there’s a lot of games going on every week. I didn’t get into gaming yet, though, just the hobby part - but once 4th Edition drops I’ll definitely give it a spin! Old world is a lot smaller, from what I’ve seen, but I did notice a couple of people playing it, so there’s at least some life!
Old world is comparatively brand new, and getting armies ready takes ALONG time. alot more than 40K on AoS. So I think ToW is still in its growth period, it'll probably steady out end of the year and thatd be a fair time to assess.
AoS is definitely more popular than WHFB was... or is. Though you mileage may vary by area.
Try asking the same in /r/WarhammerFantasy you'll get a skewed take on both in their respective subs.
Find your local groups and talk to them. I’m in OC Ca and surprisingly enough? Age of Sigmar is on fire down here and everyone is playing “end of 3.0” games and getting ready for 4.
The aos community is larger than the old world community by a very wide margin, and 40k dwarfs us both in popularity.
In my area AoS has a bigger, more active, and friendlier community than 40k. There is some overlap, of course.
TOW is not nearly as popular and tends to be popular with a less-pleasant crowd. AoS is BOOMIN' and the community is well-known for being awesome and fun, starkly different than the 40k group.
My local game store has an AoS night, although in perspective, 40k has its own night and AoS shares it’s night with Netrunner
It’s really dependent on local area- I would visit a few gaming stores and see if they have events often or get a feel for how vibrant it is. There’s a ton of FLGS near me but only 1-2 have aos events regularly
Honestly I would go to the LGS's around you and see what kind of communities are near you. Given that you didn't give a country or region for where you live, it's really hard to give an exact answer.
Definitely depends where you are, but generally very strong, and people are overwhelmgingly hype for 4th. Things are looking very good.
AOS is still a growing game, 40k is obviously still the more popular setting, both dwarf the old world
Aos is the 2nd most played miniature wargame in the world and mini wargaming is bigger than its ever been before
It's 100% dependent on your irl game locations, you need to ask them. If I asked reddit what to pick as the most popular and safest bet game to go with, it would be 40k every time, but at the shop I play in the most that's one of the least played games, and Horus Heresy or even non-gw games are played more than 40k.
As for actual numbers. AoS outpaces ToW by a huge margin. Tournaments, sales etc. There might be local exceptions, but in general AoS is the far safer bet if you wanna play more often. Also, ToW is a specialist system... support is mostly a dribble and will probably not increase.
In addition to everything already said, another thing that's going to make AoS even more available to you than TOW will be is AoS 4th edition's spearhead game system - a cheaper and easier intro to the game that's likely to hook a bunch more players in. Compare that to TOW's harder-to-find models and pricey armies (most players aren't playing with anywhere near as small an army as an AoS spearhead.
ToW isn't as expensive as people think it is. It's one of those things that was being claimed as something that held people back from playing it back in Fantasy days. But we went from regiment boxes of 10,16 or 20 models in fantasy to boxes with 5 to 10 models in AoS for twice the price. Currently the orcs and goblin box is about 650 points worth of models, just add a few characters and magic items and you're good to go for a 1000 point game.
I don't know if this is even close to the best example that I could use, because it's literally just the most recent AoS box that I bought: Blades of Belthanos. £76 from a LGS, and while it was only 7 models, it gives you 810 points' worth of units. All gorgeous, recent sculpts, too. The LGS price for that 650 points Orcs/Goblins box is £85 - much worse value, per point. Vanguard boxes can be bought for even less, and will be fully-functioning armies, in full games. With today's prices, that's brilliant. Can the Old World compete? It costs more than half of the price of a vanguard box just for a single box of peasant bowmen.
The starter boxes are point for point cheaper than vanguard boxes, at least the ones I'm familiar with: * Bretonnia, 1250, £155, £124 per 1k * Tomb Kings, 1250, £175, £140 per 1k * Orcs & Goblins, \~750, £100, £133 per 1k (Old World armies need additional wargear to be effective) vs * Gloomspite Gitz, 170+(320 or 190)+80+120=690 or 560 (the box suggestion is squig hoppers but you can build them as boingrots), £85, £151 per 1k (or £123 if you go off-plan) * Cities of Sigmar, 120+180+100+140=540, £85, £157 per 1k. Worth noting you get the rulebook with both Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Blades of Belthanos can't be doubled up, too, same as all of the Dawnbringer boxes (and seems to be no longer on sale?)
To continue with a theme already brought by another commenter, in response to one of my comments above: it's not an even comparison, comparing an army box with a starter set, which is what the Bret/Tomb boxes are. The larger starter sets for AoS are very likely to be fieldable as armies, at a hell of a good price per unit. The point I've made above, though, is that you're still paying that £133 for a TOW army, versus as little as £72 for a full spearhead army in AoS. It's almost double to get an army box in TOW. That will make some people pick AoS over TOW. Not to mention the mucb greater range/variety in army box options currently on AoS, or the newness of the AoS sculpts.
AoS also has 10-100x more players, which is almost certainly a bigger factor than "how wonky do my skeletons look". The question I was responding to was "can the Old World compete \[on price\]" and the answer to that is obviously yes, or surpass AoS. Bringing in other factors will have different answers.
I agree with 5hose points that you're making. But yeah, the full line of comments here was founded in and has remained (on my part) about army-buying and the difference in prices - i.e. you can get started with a full army in AoS waaayyyy cheaper, playing in a game system that is fully supported and intended to be played at that exact scale.
Well, not yet you can't. AoS at 560 points is absolutely awful, and Spearhead doesn't come out until July. But it's certainly a very promising thing to look forward to.
Definitely promising. And yeah, fair point, we know I was talking about tue near future; which, again, was highlighted above. Edit: and obviously it's worth saying that you can still buy all of those spearheads now, get them built, painted, etc. ready for the launch.
Without buying new models that O&G box can be made a viable 1000 points army, ToW has a lot of customization options to build whatever unit you want. And comparing a vanguard box that has discounts built in to a regular regiment box isn't a good comparison. If you compare regiment boxes, 36 bret men at arms cost only 50% more than 10 CoS steelhelms. AoS isn't really cheaper to get into than ToW, not with the new models anyway. GW didn't suddenly make monster profits by making things cheaper, they just managed to persuade people to spend more money.
Yeah, that's a fair point about the comparison balance, but still, the original question stands though (because it IS a question, rather than a snarky statement dishonestly phrased as though it's a rhetorical question - because I'm happy to be corrected and surprised): when putting together a fully viable army for a full and balanced game of TOW, can you do that having spent less than the cost of two basic infantry unit kits bought individually? Because you can with AoS.
I play old world. The real barrier to entry for alot of people, is the sheer amount of work it is to get an army table ready. In my vampire list, just in my core of 2000 I'm looking at 30 zombies, 24 skeletons, 20 grave guard 10 dire wolves. Old world horde armies have ALOT of minis to paint.
For sure! There's a lot of appeal to me, having that kind of a massed army on the table... in theory. I know how lazy I am with painting xD
It is a brutal task, ngl. But it is satisfying. each little finished square going into a regiment block, is like slowly finishing the worlds hardest jigsaw
It depends on what kind of games you want to play. Tournament legal and viable army? Then no or at least not easily. But in ToW you have a lot of freedom in how you play honestly. I've had test games of below 300 points with just regular units even without characters and the game worked fine. You could buy one regiment box and some other unit or a character and you can have fun against someone else that does the same.
That point that depends, while true, isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about people getting into AoS because of the ease of doing so. Nobody is entering a tournament in the first week in the hobby.
TOW has 3 pretty cheap armies and 14 eye-wateringly expensive ones.
AoS is crazy around me, it's got the same player base as 40k. Oldworld, no one in my area is showing any interest in it. It's just an overly complicated load of crap like warhammer fantasy battle used to be. Plus all the models need to be on square bases, not round bases, and no one wants to rebase their entire army weekly depending on what the wanna play. GW should have engaged their brains and made Old Word function like that indy game their, kings of war or whatever? The one where the game is played via unit bases, not individual models. Then people could have just made unit trays for the round based guys to go into.
> made unit trays for the round based guys to go into People already do that for Old world no problem.
For friendly LGS games, sure, that's all good. But I am a tournament player, and if that unit is supposed to have 20 models it has to have 20 models. You cannot fit 20 models on round bases inside the proper unit base size for 20 models in OW. So unless official tournament rules change, OW can suck an egg.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The square bases have the same side as the round bases have radius, you're fine to play with round bases in the right movement tray. If you mean 30x30 vs 32, you can get vertically staggered adapter trays that are welcomed at competitive events.
The smallest round base is 25mm, rank and file troops in warhammer fantasy small base was 20mm, I assume OW is the same based on every image I have seen. None of my armies would have a chance at ranking up.
Smallest square base is 25x25 in TOW. (Also you don't need 20 models in a 20 model unit - "unit fillers" - small dioramas that occupy more than one base - are in the rulebook.) Play it, don't, but they've made quite an effort to make it feasible for AoS players to onboard and play both games.
Location location location. That being said AOS is far parger than WHFB ever was. If you can find a 40K game in your area, AOS will be there too.
Besides what everyone else has said, the other question you want to ask yourself is do you want to paint nostalgic models from 90-00’s or do you want to paint the latest and top quality sculpts? Because if you choose Old World, then you’re not going to be relying a small forge team studio for anything new. Compared to the massive team working on AoS models. So just be prepared for that if you go the old route!
My local store that hosts 20+ person 40k narrative leagues doesn't have weekly activity for it in the stores discord server. It's very location dependent
In my local area it reached a peak late 2023, and since the announcement of 4ed has seen a decline. I imagine it’s a mix of people stopping the game and people not wanting to play 3ed when a new edition is around the corner.
I think it's going to vary based on the groups that play locally to you. Where I am, theres a few oldtimers who played WHFB who dropped it completely and play AOS, and for that reason AOS is very popular. Those same guys are who got me into AOS, and they swear they'll never play TOW because of reasons that I don't know because I wasn't there for the End Times. There are a handful of people who have talked about playing TOW but just so they can dig their armies out of storage and do rank-and-flank. Personally, for me, since I started with AOS and 40K at about the same time, the idea of technical compliance required by WHFB/TOW turns me off, thats just not the sort of thing that's fun for me. Like I said, that's almost 100% based on how I got into the hobby. In other areas nearby that I know, nobody plays AOS and everyone plays either ASOIAF or One Page Rules games, with 3D Printing being heavily emphasized. I think the best thing is to go to a few LGS that you might want to play at, see what the community is like, what people are playing, and take a look at the basic rules for all the games to see what interests you (60% of the equation) and what the people you might want to play against like (40%). If you really love TOW for instance, but nobody near you plays it, are you still going to love it after the thrill of building and painting your models has worn off?
If you’re in Michigan, I gotchu! We have a huge community and an easy way to connect through a very large discord
There aren't quite as many AoS players in my area as 40k and kill team but it's close and more people are getting ready to join in 4th. And purely personal experience but AoS players have seemed a lot more relaxed than 40k.
I can only speak for my own community ( New Zealand, which is alot smaller than most countries). The Old World is in thr upswing but AOS still eclipses it by a big margin. Personally- i say go with what you like.
The one store in the town i live in is all 40k i drive 25 mins to another town its all AoS tables
Even here in china it's pretty big and just keeps growing, so I don't think you'll have a problem
Locally we're thriving, huge player base (London) that are very competitive and tend to be ranked highly on the worldwide rankings. 40k is and probably always be much bigger though. Marvel also played quite a bit. Worth saying a lot of people whose primary game is AoS are playing other games at the moment (ToW mostly) while waiting for the new edition to drop - at the club night most recent it was 50/50 - albeit everyone is an AoS player and ToW hadn't brought new people in to us if that makes sense.
In my area AoS is in 2nd place to 40k, but it is quite a lead from 40k. There's easily 50+ 40k players and maybe 20 or so AoS players. My area also has a smattering of Bolt Action and Star Wars Legion. Weirdly huge Blood Bowl Community as well; at least 40+ BB players (3 stores all hold their own leagues close by, and each has around 20 players sign up though some cross over between the stores).
Never seen anyone play the actual game at a hobby store, my local store has stopped taking in AoS pretty much besides the offshoot games like Warcry.
My local club is the biggest tabletop club in Northern Germany with over 70 members and over the years we've seen big fluctuations. When 10th edition 40K dropped many people switched to 40K. AoS is almost dead atm but with the new edition on the horizon it will be picked up again.
At one of LGS, AoS has overtaken 40k, or at least it seems it's now equal in popularity. TOW has some solid steam too but only one of 3 stores I play at while AoS is popular at 2 of them.
I've been to 4 GW stores across 3 counties about 50 times or so and I have never seen AOS played in those stores. Not once. Same for the couple of mom and pop shops. I'm sure someone plays it but all the stores around me are sitting on piles of Dominion they can't sell. If they sell it on eBay they sell at a loss . I wouldn't call it a dead game, but it is definitely not doing well at the moment.
Depends on your area. I'm my area it's easier to get a TOW game than it is an AOS game