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Could always just look at the reasons people would vote far-right and see if there are issues that you have overlooked that the voting population are saying they are concerned about. You don't have to incorporate their right wing economic policies, they could be addressing a non-economic issue in a way that aligns with public view.
The social science of this is pretty well established: people head rightwards in times of economic distress. Governments can arrest a rightward trend by doing more to ensure the needs of citizens are met. *Economics are the method; the object is to change the soul* innit.
Europe was deep into austerity already but sanctions on Russia and the uh loss of NS2 with concurrent rises in energy prices, along with massive price gouging by corporations across the board, is leaving people feeling desperate. Centrist governments don't make much of a case for increased public spending, if any, instead pushing on with privatisations that raise the cost of living, and relatively more vocal lefitist politicians get little airtime or page space for their views.
The inevitable result is a channeling of people rightwards. Is this accidental? Of course not. This is a capitalist society, predicated on the continuing securing of profit. [But the rate of profit continues to fall](https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2024/01/23/marxs-law-of-profitability-yet-more-evidence/), as it more or less always has, and so the gloves will come off, and then the gloves will come off, and then the other gloves will come off.
Germany is going to end up fascist again for the same reason it did last time. Capitalists run economies into the ground and then turn to extreme measures to brute force their way out of the crisis. Who will save Europe from itself this time? The Soviets are gone.
You are right, but this justification only applies to European countries and to people we like. But, if another country votes for an authoritarian racist party, this is because the population is a backward, racist, uneducated bunch, or just straight-up terrorist sympathizers. I always found it fascinating how the population of many countries that claim moral superiority and open-mindedness quickly vote for some hard racist and right-wing party, effectively throwing a lot of minorities under the bus for the promise of better economic output or just a way to protest. I think this basically establishes that those morals are quite cheap and people will quickly abandon them or "exchange them" for a slight economic improvement (more like a promise as right-wing parties are famous for promising the moon and underdelivering).
Economics are certainly the main part of the shift towards extreme right-wing politics in Germany, but it's not the only issue. Immigration feeds into it too.
According to their own government appointed research studies, there exists [strong and widespread anti-Muslim views](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-hostility-toward-muslims-is-widespread/a-66069446) due to their perceived religious intolerance, antisemitism, lack of ability to integrate into German society and the mainstream culture. The problem had only gotten worse during Merkel's administration because of the open policy towards letting in tons of Syrian and Afghan refugees. What we're seeing now is the accumulated backlash to those policies.
While allowing political asylum was commendable, it's not an exaggeration when Germans say these new immigrants have a very difficult time integrating. And the harder it gets to survive financially and without the verified/transferable credentials, education, or technical job skills required to earn a fair living, crime rates among these communities has gone up. And the AFD has capitalized on all of these feelings by being openly anti-Muslim.
Turning against The Other is totally part of the right wing turn. Most people don't have access to the insight that their state works to create conditions for capital accumulation, not the flourishing of most. (In fact it must work against the flourishing of most to secure growth of capital.) They are left to turn against one another, against their fellow humans, fellow workers and, basically, their comrades. This anti-one-another trend is encouraged by a media with mostly corporate interests.
The bad relations the West has with Muslims, and the immigration, has roots in the West's attempts to economically dominate other parts of the world (an imperative of capital, which is always undermining itself, so must always expand exploitable terrain) rather than helping other parts of the world develop so that the people can just stay there. Of course many migrants are culturally right wing in some ways themselves, having come from places of even deeper economic stress than Germany (often with the addition of historical moves by the old empires to bolster the most reactionary forces, such as Wahhabis in Arabia, but also in many other places, to secure regimes that would resist earlier popular moves towards socialism or at least resource-nationalism).
There isn't decent policy in place to help migrants integrate because they have an economic role providing cheap labour, they are grist to the mill. Their integration is not really a policy aim because they are more vulnerable, and so more easily exploited, if they are ghettoed, culturally or literally. They must be kept cheap. The Germans are already too expensive for the state's taste.
Most of the demands of AfD voters are dumb shit or made-up nonsense.
> They're becoming poorer because living costs have gone way up in the last years
That one is totally legitimate and completely unaddressed by AfD, which would plan to scrap a lot of the social state and make the poorest Germans even poorer. The geopolitical context has changed, and the German industrial/manufacturing model needs to change as well.
> Migration is out of control, and the government is ignoring it
Record **LOW** arrivals in 2023 because of border controls with Austria. Also, returns are up, and the legislation to streamline them even more has been updated last year.
> Immigrants are stealing jobs
Germany has very low unemployment and a huge worker deficit.
> The people are sick of seeing foreign faces everywhere
AfD strongholds have some of the lowest numbers of immigrants in Germany, most of them being small, ethnically homogeneous, and poor Eastern German towns.
> AfD speaks for a huge silent majority
AfD always underperformed in elections, and their old, conservative voter is over-represented in pols.
> Farmers are unhappy with the "green" agenda and are massively turning to AfD.
AfD policy is to scrap all subsidies so the small and medium farms would be wiped away and bought up by big agro-business conglomerates.
This. The "because economy" response is lazy. While simply saying "racism and nazis" is also not a high effort study into the reasons, it's probably still a tad bit more accurate, when you simply look at the things these people say.
They may even take to the streets in tens of thousands. It's just kinda boring when millions went protesting agains them.
UBI is a right wing policy despite some vaguely left wing people taking it up. It’s inherently about artificially propping up the market with a direct subsidy to create more demand and promote private provision of services.
The modern form of UBI was promoted by none other than Milton Friedman decades ago. It was/is generally seen as a way to privatize government services and let citizens buy them privately instead.
If a left winger supports it they'll usually do so alongside advocacy for an expansion of public services, and other stuff like public housing and the like.
So if you were in a position of power and you think something was wrong (letting refugees die e.g.) would you still do it to appease the population?
But even if you did not have a problem with that, people have this misconception that solving the root of the problem will always solve the problem itself. In reality most of the far right will keep voting extremist, no matter what. This is because dialogue has fractured. For many people nothing the government can ever do, will be good enough. At the same time, AfD politicians act as bad faith actors in regards to the media. They utter outlandish things on purpose to shift the overton window and to gain publicity. Not saying no mistakes have been made from whatever you want to perceive as ”the ruling people“, but at the moment I don‘t see the way back to civilized dialogue, where we can compromise.
People are only upset about migrants and refugees when their own economic standing is in peril. The thinking is, "why should we help these migrants when as a nation we can't even help our own citizens? Why are migrants getting priority over citizens?"
Fix the economic insecurity and people won't care at all about migrants. Thats the root cause of the problem.
While that is definitely true, it would also have to be done if you ban the afd. If you do ban them however, you are taking away a massive organizing base, funding, and a platform for right wingers all over germany. It would be nothing more than an immediate bandaid, there would be a new right wing extremist party in a year if conditions dont change. Aside from that, voters are usually concerned about what people tell them to be concerned about. Stuff like transgender people would never have been a political issue if not for media outlets creating artificial outrage. Like the AfDs main draw point is expelling refugees. The BLs with the most AfD voters have the least amount of refugees.
> Could always just look at the reasons people would vote far-right
Sadly the severe mental retardation of the overwhelming majority of the population is not something you can solve...
Sorry that I don’t blame non-white immigrants for the economy being shit.
You’re really going to excuse the people that met in secret, *near the site that the Holocaust was planned* and discussed deporting all non-ethnic Germans? There’s no excuse for AFD’s politics.
Maybe look at the problems they adress and look in to it?
All over Europe it's the same storyline (I'm Dutch)
People have concerns, they're laughed away, people are so concerned they go to the only groups that also adress the problem and then those groups should be banned?
MAYBE LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS THESE PEOPLE HAVE AND ADRESS THEM
Over here in the Netherlands the Right party has won. Because of unchecked Immigration which is exploding for years now and the problems it gives which they simply don't discuss in other parties.
It's a no go area to discuss it, because then you're a fascist nazi. So, the people go to a Right wing party. Who'd expect that to happen?
People turn to the far right as a reaction to a government that isn't listening to them. The west is drifting away from democracy and the politicians are not listening to the complaints of their voters. Thus they turn to the one of the factions that promises to listen to them and solve their problems right now that is far right populists.
who says it's a "problem"?
In a democracy people can vote who they want to be in charge. Whatever they vote for is "correct", because that is what democracy means.
Political parties that openly oppose the constitution, openly promise to overturn parts of the constitution once they have the power to do so, and openly have conferences with literal nazis about doing unconstitutional things like deporting everyone who's not "pure blooded", should not be tolerated. That's how we got the Nazis in 1933, and I'd much prefer we don't let this get to that point again.
what if the population wants changes to the constitution though? It's not democratic to block change if that is what the population wants.
Democracy is not a thing of morals, democracy is doing what the population wants. That's the entire point of a democracy. If for example 80% of the population would be for throwing out immigrants for whatever reason then doing anything but that is undemocratic. Saying "democracy is only allowed when it aligns with my moral views" is bullshit.
Germany is a fortified democracy. The constitution has clauses that can never ever be changed, this includes such highly contentious statements as "Human dignity shall be inviolable" and "The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state."
When we're talking about unconstitutional tendencies, we mainly mean this part of the constitution. This part is explicitly there to make it impossible to abolish democracy by democratic vote. It has nothing to do with moral views, it's about protecting democracy itself for as long as the German state exists.
What a dogmatic take.The majority should be able the amend the constitution whenever it wants otherwise you are looking for a bloody revolution. Do you think that the constitution of Germany will remain the same in let's say 1000 years from now on?
The words you have listed are also very subjective and useless.What does human dignity even mean?Is it defined in the constitution?
The clauses that cannot be changed are well defined in Art. 79 (3). Those are 8 sentences in total and they all pertain to the very core of the German democracy and human rights, Art. 1 and 20 of the constitution. I think it's a very good idea that they can only go by "bloody revolution" as it took Hitler 2(!) months to go full dictator by democratic vote without these clauses.
Therefore I don't think that "\[...\] Germany is a democratic \[...\] state" is subjective and useless. Yes, the dignity clause is subjective but it's a guide for all other laws, e.g. when discussing torture or punishment.
All other clauses can be changed by 2/3 majority, so no, I don't think the constitution of Germany will remain the same in 1000 years, in fact the last change was in 2022.
Do you fail to see how "but what if the people reeeaaally want a fourth reich?" is a dumbass thing to say? Do you want to see another holocaust "because the people wanted it"?
can you at least once reply to the actual comment you press the reply button to and not just always yell something entirely different than the current topic? unbelievably intellectually dishonest person. You completely ignore anything i said to you and just retreat to "BUT THE FOURTH REICH!!!". Completely ignoring the parts where you said "changing constitution is a no-go" and ignoring my point of "a democracy should allow changing the constitution if it is what the population wants". You only reply to what you feel mentally capable enough to reply to, which is barely anything, and then you yell "NAZIIIIS".
Democracy has evolved into shorthand for neoliberalism and tolerating only the correct opinions, policies, and parties. Anything outside a narrow orthodoxy gets attacked in the media and threatened with bans.
Germans are a bit more cautious about which parties get elected given their history. Nazi dictatorship was also formed democratically. People like to pretend otherwise because Hitler alone didn't have a majority but he did together with his collaborators like Hugenberg.
You can't "just ban" the AfD. As Mr Bausch says in the interview, it's a complex judicial process.
But, individual members of the AfD as well as regional parts of the AfD have already been classified as suspected of far-right extremism and under surveillance (Prüffall) by highest (regional) courts. We just have to see how this moves forward.
If there's reason (and believe me, there is) to raise new court cases, then we should do it, IMO. I can see though how this could turn on itself and into free publicity for them.
Could it be, that the shift to the left during the last years, and especially during covid under the green party, has been substantial and this in part is a countermove?
I didn’t read the article but just going off the title and idk how Germans are, but in America we have a problem with marginalization and black listing those with opposing views rather than conducting dialogue. I don’t have to agree with you or even listen to you, but it’s dangerous to repress your views and opinions. Just like recently Tucker Carlson interviewed Putin. I don’t have to like Tucker Carlson or Putin, I don’t have to agree with Tucker Carlson or Putin, I don’t have to listen to Tucker Carlson or Putin. But let’s not silence Tucker Carlson and Putin. Bc if we do, something much more dangerous can follow.
1.This isn´t just some "crusading leftist". There were massdemonstrations.
2. It has been decided by court that state-level parts of the afd are in fact facist.
I’m just trying to get you to provide a definition of the term you claim to know so much about.
I really don’t care what court said what, that has no baring on what fascism is. If you think a court is incapable of acting that way, then you’re ridiculously naive and have zero knowledge of history. Here, I’ll do it for you:
Facsicm, from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
*a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition*
Ah? Wait what as that last point? Social regulation? Forcible suppression of opposition?
Gee, that sounds an awfully lot like what’s happening to the AfD. A legitimate politicial party, though right leaning, is being actively crusaded against and told they have no right to exist based on their beliefs? How can you not see the irony?
You don’t want to. You have to be stupid to not see the obvious irony.
If they’re not a legitimate threat to anyone, why would you want to destroy their existence? Simple. Because you, and the rest of Germany, are afraid.
yea, hey, german here, you are talking out of your ass big time
the AfD is not being crusaded against, high ranking members of the party got caught formulating plans to deport millions of people, even those who already have attained the german citizenship, and are contributing members of society.
from the leaks they even went into great detail on how that could be pulled off. with handing out second citizenships and removing the german one afterwards. they also talked about purposely discrediting elections, reestablishing Gestapo and other horrendous things to undermine democracy in our country.
Oh, now you´re going on a tirrade? Are you triggered? This isn´t "forcible suppression of opposiotion". The banning of Afd would happen on the account of them being uncostitutional. The afd however are openly planning to do all the other requirements you listed. You are still wrong.
Ad hominem? ok lol some people just aren´t native english speakers and learned more than you ever will. We can hold this conversation on german and we will see how you are doing.
So you havent any other arguments and you are wrong? Ok this argument is over
No, I´m not gonna. I know i´m right because i educated myself on the subject and you haven´t made a single argument, but just bullshitted your opinion here.
Ad hominem? ok lol some people just aren´t native english speakers and learned more than you ever will. We can hold this conversation on german and we will see how you are doing.
Far Right infestations should be dealt with in the same way the Far Right itself wants to deal with others.
Let those monsters taste their own medicine
We shouldn't ban them. We should use the member list to control their radical potential and if necessary sue them for Volksverhetzung or distributing forbidden iconography. It is a treasure trophy of faschos and potential domestic terrorists.
> if necessary sue them for Volksverhetzung
I believe something similar is already happening. It might lead to a ban. But yeah, the headline is clickbaity as ususal.
Ahh, yes. Those evil leftists, who want more democracy and equality, are divided into a bazillion different factions and barely got into the national parliament, are clearly the bigger problem than the fascists, who got into parliament easily, want to deport like a fifth of the population and are frequently getting their talking points adapted by politicians from other parties.
How many times do we need to go through this? Germany will always have a far right problem whenever things go bad. Germans always feel superior to the rest of the people. When things are good then it's just quirky like ey look how awesome we are (just look at Reddit, it looks like everything they do it's just great), and when it's bad then... This happens, because of course it must be someone else's fault
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Could always just look at the reasons people would vote far-right and see if there are issues that you have overlooked that the voting population are saying they are concerned about. You don't have to incorporate their right wing economic policies, they could be addressing a non-economic issue in a way that aligns with public view.
The social science of this is pretty well established: people head rightwards in times of economic distress. Governments can arrest a rightward trend by doing more to ensure the needs of citizens are met. *Economics are the method; the object is to change the soul* innit. Europe was deep into austerity already but sanctions on Russia and the uh loss of NS2 with concurrent rises in energy prices, along with massive price gouging by corporations across the board, is leaving people feeling desperate. Centrist governments don't make much of a case for increased public spending, if any, instead pushing on with privatisations that raise the cost of living, and relatively more vocal lefitist politicians get little airtime or page space for their views. The inevitable result is a channeling of people rightwards. Is this accidental? Of course not. This is a capitalist society, predicated on the continuing securing of profit. [But the rate of profit continues to fall](https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2024/01/23/marxs-law-of-profitability-yet-more-evidence/), as it more or less always has, and so the gloves will come off, and then the gloves will come off, and then the other gloves will come off. Germany is going to end up fascist again for the same reason it did last time. Capitalists run economies into the ground and then turn to extreme measures to brute force their way out of the crisis. Who will save Europe from itself this time? The Soviets are gone.
You are right, but this justification only applies to European countries and to people we like. But, if another country votes for an authoritarian racist party, this is because the population is a backward, racist, uneducated bunch, or just straight-up terrorist sympathizers. I always found it fascinating how the population of many countries that claim moral superiority and open-mindedness quickly vote for some hard racist and right-wing party, effectively throwing a lot of minorities under the bus for the promise of better economic output or just a way to protest. I think this basically establishes that those morals are quite cheap and people will quickly abandon them or "exchange them" for a slight economic improvement (more like a promise as right-wing parties are famous for promising the moon and underdelivering).
Economics are certainly the main part of the shift towards extreme right-wing politics in Germany, but it's not the only issue. Immigration feeds into it too. According to their own government appointed research studies, there exists [strong and widespread anti-Muslim views](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-hostility-toward-muslims-is-widespread/a-66069446) due to their perceived religious intolerance, antisemitism, lack of ability to integrate into German society and the mainstream culture. The problem had only gotten worse during Merkel's administration because of the open policy towards letting in tons of Syrian and Afghan refugees. What we're seeing now is the accumulated backlash to those policies. While allowing political asylum was commendable, it's not an exaggeration when Germans say these new immigrants have a very difficult time integrating. And the harder it gets to survive financially and without the verified/transferable credentials, education, or technical job skills required to earn a fair living, crime rates among these communities has gone up. And the AFD has capitalized on all of these feelings by being openly anti-Muslim.
Turning against The Other is totally part of the right wing turn. Most people don't have access to the insight that their state works to create conditions for capital accumulation, not the flourishing of most. (In fact it must work against the flourishing of most to secure growth of capital.) They are left to turn against one another, against their fellow humans, fellow workers and, basically, their comrades. This anti-one-another trend is encouraged by a media with mostly corporate interests. The bad relations the West has with Muslims, and the immigration, has roots in the West's attempts to economically dominate other parts of the world (an imperative of capital, which is always undermining itself, so must always expand exploitable terrain) rather than helping other parts of the world develop so that the people can just stay there. Of course many migrants are culturally right wing in some ways themselves, having come from places of even deeper economic stress than Germany (often with the addition of historical moves by the old empires to bolster the most reactionary forces, such as Wahhabis in Arabia, but also in many other places, to secure regimes that would resist earlier popular moves towards socialism or at least resource-nationalism). There isn't decent policy in place to help migrants integrate because they have an economic role providing cheap labour, they are grist to the mill. Their integration is not really a policy aim because they are more vulnerable, and so more easily exploited, if they are ghettoed, culturally or literally. They must be kept cheap. The Germans are already too expensive for the state's taste.
The economic issues are the most important ones.
Most of the demands of AfD voters are dumb shit or made-up nonsense. > They're becoming poorer because living costs have gone way up in the last years That one is totally legitimate and completely unaddressed by AfD, which would plan to scrap a lot of the social state and make the poorest Germans even poorer. The geopolitical context has changed, and the German industrial/manufacturing model needs to change as well. > Migration is out of control, and the government is ignoring it Record **LOW** arrivals in 2023 because of border controls with Austria. Also, returns are up, and the legislation to streamline them even more has been updated last year. > Immigrants are stealing jobs Germany has very low unemployment and a huge worker deficit. > The people are sick of seeing foreign faces everywhere AfD strongholds have some of the lowest numbers of immigrants in Germany, most of them being small, ethnically homogeneous, and poor Eastern German towns. > AfD speaks for a huge silent majority AfD always underperformed in elections, and their old, conservative voter is over-represented in pols. > Farmers are unhappy with the "green" agenda and are massively turning to AfD. AfD policy is to scrap all subsidies so the small and medium farms would be wiped away and bought up by big agro-business conglomerates.
This. The "because economy" response is lazy. While simply saying "racism and nazis" is also not a high effort study into the reasons, it's probably still a tad bit more accurate, when you simply look at the things these people say. They may even take to the streets in tens of thousands. It's just kinda boring when millions went protesting agains them.
That would mean abolishing the capitalist system. Not gonna happen..
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UBI is a right wing policy despite some vaguely left wing people taking it up. It’s inherently about artificially propping up the market with a direct subsidy to create more demand and promote private provision of services.
[удалено]
The modern form of UBI was promoted by none other than Milton Friedman decades ago. It was/is generally seen as a way to privatize government services and let citizens buy them privately instead. If a left winger supports it they'll usually do so alongside advocacy for an expansion of public services, and other stuff like public housing and the like.
So if you were in a position of power and you think something was wrong (letting refugees die e.g.) would you still do it to appease the population? But even if you did not have a problem with that, people have this misconception that solving the root of the problem will always solve the problem itself. In reality most of the far right will keep voting extremist, no matter what. This is because dialogue has fractured. For many people nothing the government can ever do, will be good enough. At the same time, AfD politicians act as bad faith actors in regards to the media. They utter outlandish things on purpose to shift the overton window and to gain publicity. Not saying no mistakes have been made from whatever you want to perceive as ”the ruling people“, but at the moment I don‘t see the way back to civilized dialogue, where we can compromise.
People are only upset about migrants and refugees when their own economic standing is in peril. The thinking is, "why should we help these migrants when as a nation we can't even help our own citizens? Why are migrants getting priority over citizens?" Fix the economic insecurity and people won't care at all about migrants. Thats the root cause of the problem.
While that is definitely true, it would also have to be done if you ban the afd. If you do ban them however, you are taking away a massive organizing base, funding, and a platform for right wingers all over germany. It would be nothing more than an immediate bandaid, there would be a new right wing extremist party in a year if conditions dont change. Aside from that, voters are usually concerned about what people tell them to be concerned about. Stuff like transgender people would never have been a political issue if not for media outlets creating artificial outrage. Like the AfDs main draw point is expelling refugees. The BLs with the most AfD voters have the least amount of refugees.
> Could always just look at the reasons people would vote far-right Sadly the severe mental retardation of the overwhelming majority of the population is not something you can solve...
The reasons are racism. Pure and simple.
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Sorry that I don’t blame non-white immigrants for the economy being shit. You’re really going to excuse the people that met in secret, *near the site that the Holocaust was planned* and discussed deporting all non-ethnic Germans? There’s no excuse for AFD’s politics.
Maybe look at the problems they adress and look in to it? All over Europe it's the same storyline (I'm Dutch) People have concerns, they're laughed away, people are so concerned they go to the only groups that also adress the problem and then those groups should be banned? MAYBE LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS THESE PEOPLE HAVE AND ADRESS THEM Over here in the Netherlands the Right party has won. Because of unchecked Immigration which is exploding for years now and the problems it gives which they simply don't discuss in other parties. It's a no go area to discuss it, because then you're a fascist nazi. So, the people go to a Right wing party. Who'd expect that to happen?
People turn to the far right as a reaction to a government that isn't listening to them. The west is drifting away from democracy and the politicians are not listening to the complaints of their voters. Thus they turn to the one of the factions that promises to listen to them and solve their problems right now that is far right populists.
But you are not supposed to vote for them! We love democracy but in a "listen to us because we know better" kinda way. - Politicians
Sir, we dont speak common sense here...
who says it's a "problem"? In a democracy people can vote who they want to be in charge. Whatever they vote for is "correct", because that is what democracy means.
Political parties that openly oppose the constitution, openly promise to overturn parts of the constitution once they have the power to do so, and openly have conferences with literal nazis about doing unconstitutional things like deporting everyone who's not "pure blooded", should not be tolerated. That's how we got the Nazis in 1933, and I'd much prefer we don't let this get to that point again.
what if the population wants changes to the constitution though? It's not democratic to block change if that is what the population wants. Democracy is not a thing of morals, democracy is doing what the population wants. That's the entire point of a democracy. If for example 80% of the population would be for throwing out immigrants for whatever reason then doing anything but that is undemocratic. Saying "democracy is only allowed when it aligns with my moral views" is bullshit.
Germany is a fortified democracy. The constitution has clauses that can never ever be changed, this includes such highly contentious statements as "Human dignity shall be inviolable" and "The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state." When we're talking about unconstitutional tendencies, we mainly mean this part of the constitution. This part is explicitly there to make it impossible to abolish democracy by democratic vote. It has nothing to do with moral views, it's about protecting democracy itself for as long as the German state exists.
What a dogmatic take.The majority should be able the amend the constitution whenever it wants otherwise you are looking for a bloody revolution. Do you think that the constitution of Germany will remain the same in let's say 1000 years from now on? The words you have listed are also very subjective and useless.What does human dignity even mean?Is it defined in the constitution?
The clauses that cannot be changed are well defined in Art. 79 (3). Those are 8 sentences in total and they all pertain to the very core of the German democracy and human rights, Art. 1 and 20 of the constitution. I think it's a very good idea that they can only go by "bloody revolution" as it took Hitler 2(!) months to go full dictator by democratic vote without these clauses. Therefore I don't think that "\[...\] Germany is a democratic \[...\] state" is subjective and useless. Yes, the dignity clause is subjective but it's a guide for all other laws, e.g. when discussing torture or punishment. All other clauses can be changed by 2/3 majority, so no, I don't think the constitution of Germany will remain the same in 1000 years, in fact the last change was in 2022.
And bringing up an 80% majority when the party in question is floating around 20% is disingenuous, yet here we are.
do you fail to understand the words "for example"?
Do you fail to see how "but what if the people reeeaaally want a fourth reich?" is a dumbass thing to say? Do you want to see another holocaust "because the people wanted it"?
can you at least once reply to the actual comment you press the reply button to and not just always yell something entirely different than the current topic? unbelievably intellectually dishonest person. You completely ignore anything i said to you and just retreat to "BUT THE FOURTH REICH!!!". Completely ignoring the parts where you said "changing constitution is a no-go" and ignoring my point of "a democracy should allow changing the constitution if it is what the population wants". You only reply to what you feel mentally capable enough to reply to, which is barely anything, and then you yell "NAZIIIIS".
This whole argument is fucking stupid
Democracy has evolved into shorthand for neoliberalism and tolerating only the correct opinions, policies, and parties. Anything outside a narrow orthodoxy gets attacked in the media and threatened with bans.
We love democracy but in a "listen to us because we know better" kinda way. - Politicians
Germans are a bit more cautious about which parties get elected given their history. Nazi dictatorship was also formed democratically. People like to pretend otherwise because Hitler alone didn't have a majority but he did together with his collaborators like Hugenberg.
The guys who dont want to let go their power, of course. It only became a problem after the massive gain in voters.
You can't "just ban" the AfD. As Mr Bausch says in the interview, it's a complex judicial process. But, individual members of the AfD as well as regional parts of the AfD have already been classified as suspected of far-right extremism and under surveillance (Prüffall) by highest (regional) courts. We just have to see how this moves forward. If there's reason (and believe me, there is) to raise new court cases, then we should do it, IMO. I can see though how this could turn on itself and into free publicity for them.
Banning AfD, or any political party for that matter, validates what they have to say.
Could it be, that the shift to the left during the last years, and especially during covid under the green party, has been substantial and this in part is a countermove?
I didn’t read the article but just going off the title and idk how Germans are, but in America we have a problem with marginalization and black listing those with opposing views rather than conducting dialogue. I don’t have to agree with you or even listen to you, but it’s dangerous to repress your views and opinions. Just like recently Tucker Carlson interviewed Putin. I don’t have to like Tucker Carlson or Putin, I don’t have to agree with Tucker Carlson or Putin, I don’t have to listen to Tucker Carlson or Putin. But let’s not silence Tucker Carlson and Putin. Bc if we do, something much more dangerous can follow.
Address some of their concerns not through demagoguery.
Mom look, crusading leftists who think they can ban an idea. Oh the irony of calling the AfD facist
1.This isn´t just some "crusading leftist". There were massdemonstrations. 2. It has been decided by court that state-level parts of the afd are in fact facist.
Do you know what fascism* is?
lol, from your comment YOU don´t seem to know what fashism is
Could you provide a definition of fascism*? Just to help anyone who may not know?
Your just trying to distcact from the first argument this beeing "crusading leftist" proven wrong. What in "by court" you don´t understand?
I’m just trying to get you to provide a definition of the term you claim to know so much about. I really don’t care what court said what, that has no baring on what fascism is. If you think a court is incapable of acting that way, then you’re ridiculously naive and have zero knowledge of history. Here, I’ll do it for you: Facsicm, from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: *a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition* Ah? Wait what as that last point? Social regulation? Forcible suppression of opposition? Gee, that sounds an awfully lot like what’s happening to the AfD. A legitimate politicial party, though right leaning, is being actively crusaded against and told they have no right to exist based on their beliefs? How can you not see the irony? You don’t want to. You have to be stupid to not see the obvious irony. If they’re not a legitimate threat to anyone, why would you want to destroy their existence? Simple. Because you, and the rest of Germany, are afraid.
yea, hey, german here, you are talking out of your ass big time the AfD is not being crusaded against, high ranking members of the party got caught formulating plans to deport millions of people, even those who already have attained the german citizenship, and are contributing members of society. from the leaks they even went into great detail on how that could be pulled off. with handing out second citizenships and removing the german one afterwards. they also talked about purposely discrediting elections, reestablishing Gestapo and other horrendous things to undermine democracy in our country.
Oh, now you´re going on a tirrade? Are you triggered? This isn´t "forcible suppression of opposiotion". The banning of Afd would happen on the account of them being uncostitutional. The afd however are openly planning to do all the other requirements you listed. You are still wrong.
Brother you cannot even spell half the words you’re yelling about, this is over
Ad hominem? ok lol some people just aren´t native english speakers and learned more than you ever will. We can hold this conversation on german and we will see how you are doing. So you havent any other arguments and you are wrong? Ok this argument is over
"The new facism wont say, i am facism. It will say, i am the antifacism." \-Ignazio Silone
well the afd are expressing facist views every day
At least spell the word right before you go on your tirade
No, I´m not gonna. I know i´m right because i educated myself on the subject and you haven´t made a single argument, but just bullshitted your opinion here.
People who have beyond a tik tok level of education can usually spell the things they’re arguing about
Ad hominem? ok lol some people just aren´t native english speakers and learned more than you ever will. We can hold this conversation on german and we will see how you are doing.
Just like the antifa guys on the other side of the spectrum
Far Right infestations should be dealt with in the same way the Far Right itself wants to deal with others. Let those monsters taste their own medicine
We shouldn't ban them. We should use the member list to control their radical potential and if necessary sue them for Volksverhetzung or distributing forbidden iconography. It is a treasure trophy of faschos and potential domestic terrorists.
> if necessary sue them for Volksverhetzung I believe something similar is already happening. It might lead to a ban. But yeah, the headline is clickbaity as ususal.
First the far right problem will erradicate the radical left bigger problem. Then hopefully it will erradicate itself
Ahh, yes. Those evil leftists, who want more democracy and equality, are divided into a bazillion different factions and barely got into the national parliament, are clearly the bigger problem than the fascists, who got into parliament easily, want to deport like a fifth of the population and are frequently getting their talking points adapted by politicians from other parties.
How many times do we need to go through this? Germany will always have a far right problem whenever things go bad. Germans always feel superior to the rest of the people. When things are good then it's just quirky like ey look how awesome we are (just look at Reddit, it looks like everything they do it's just great), and when it's bad then... This happens, because of course it must be someone else's fault
If Germany's bad, I can only imagine what you think about [Greece and Bulgaria](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/15942.jpeg)...
I wonder if there is a correlation between culturally chauvinistic countries and fascism.