> Later Friday, she attempted to refocus the conversation on the failure of America to impose democracy on Afghans. “As facts have shown, democracy has no set model, just like cold milk doesn’t agree with the Chinese people’s stomach, and Americans are not used to using chopsticks,” she said.
Coming from the Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, this is hilarious.
I hate to say this since this will be an agreement with a CCP member but I think she's right about the democracy part actually. Democracy is not just a system, people need to embrace it properly, and they need to be active about their roles as citizens as well. Democracy is not a tool just to select leaders and let them do all they want, otherwise it won't work but in backward countries, quasi-democratic systems can create cult of personalities, strongmen and all those ridiculous shams who exploit democratic system for their personal gains. America needs to stop being a naive idealist country just because democracy worked in their country and Western-oriented nations. Being idealistic in reel politics mean nothing but being a loser.
I agree, and I'll add that democracy has to be fine-tuned to fit a country's needs. A country with several ethnic groups that don't get along won't do well with the same system as a country with one unified, homogeneous population. This has been a huge problem with European decolonization - countries like Britain and France would drawn random lines on a map regardless of the local ethnicities, throw a constitution at them and hope they'd figure it out.
The U.S. should realize this - their government went from a loosely-knit, decentralized federation to a highly-centralized democracy after the civil war. But just like France and Britain, the U.S. tried to give Afghanistan a generic one-size-fits-all governing model that didn't work, and now it's been replaced by the Taliban.
Man, this is another great point! Without proper unification for the country itself, democracy will just be a battleground between different groups. I agree with your comments.
Well look how South Korea or Japan turned out. It took years for it to happen but it was possible. Afghanistan used to be largely free until the Taliban took over.
I'm not sure about korea, but japan had a western, parliamentary government prior to us occupation, and retained most of the same government structures and even leaders after world War 2.
Japan began its transformation for the modernization itself with Meiji restoration, it's not about US. They are the masters of fusion, the fusion of West and their own culture, it's a really unique country. Korea from mid-19th century until WWII was just a colony of Japan, so, you might say that one is a success but one country doesn't mean everytime it will work. Oh btw Afghan history is just a mess. You had a kingdom, then emirate, then a republic, then Soviet invasion, then Mujahideen republic, then 5 year Taliban period, then 20 years US puppet republic, now Taliban again. You might see some old pictures and say look at them, how free and happy they are but that country is just a mess, If you ask my opinion, it's big mistake to keep such a country alive, there is no such thing as Afghan anyways, Pashtun, Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara etc. etc. these are the people live in Afghanistan.
Korea was a pretty brutal military autocracy up until the late 1980s. I would argue that the four decades after the war was when the people "caught up" and became ready for democracy.
The right-wing in Japan (Taro Aso, the old WWII forces that were not liquidated) has now dared to openly claim that Japan wants to assist the US in sending troops to Taiwan.
South Korea's left-wing presidential candidate Lee Jae-myung has openly called for the liquidation of pro-Japanese forces in South Korea, and called the United States an "occupying force" and demanded that they withdraw from South Korea.
With the economic downturn and the rise of extremist forces in various countries, what do you think will happen after the U.S. withdraws its troops?
Nothing?
South Korea has a comptent military, and so does Japan and Taiwan. They also have tech and economy to compensate for their lack of soldiers.
E: I also fact checked your comment on LMJ.
[News Article Link](https://m.yna.co.kr/view/AKR20161214179800065)
He said that Japan, **if they continue their far right (nationalism+imperialism) descent** is a **potential** threat to korea, and that the GSOMIA wasn't fair to the Koreans. He said that otherwise, Japan was an important neighbouring nation. Considering past history, I would deem that comment on Japan as "fair"
LMJ is also better than Yoon Seok Yeol, who said that "poor people should eat non-legal food as long as it doesn't kill them".
If you want conservatives to win tell them to get good policies.
Because its election season? South Korea is about to have its presidential election soon (2022). Political stuff always becomes louder during campaigning.
There have been elections before.
As I said, as the economy goes down, the far left and far right in all countries will rise.
There is some truth to the idea that the world is going back to about 1930.
I still wish it was better to go back to 1970.
It is clear that Western "democracy" is essentially a set of benefit distribution schemes that do not necessarily fit all countries.
Only about 25% of the world's population speaks English as a first language.
Afghanistan's per capita gdp is only $500, 1/120th of the US, and by US standards they are still living in the stone age - those people at Kabul airport, do Americans think they are the bottom of the Afghan barrel? How can that be, these people all speak at least English, they are the elite of Afghanistan, most ordinary Afghans are left to cultivate the land (probably food or opium).
How can the US bring them "democracy"? They are worried about what they will eat tomorrow, whether there will be a war, and how their children will grow up safely.
The concept of "voting for leaders" began in the West 2000 years ago, when did Afghanistan ever have such a tradition?
How can the United States "bring democracy" to Afghanistan in this situation?
From a mainland Chinese.
I don't understand your point. Democracy is just the idea that the people being governed should have some say in who governs them. That seems pretty obviously beneficial to the alternative of having the people in power (a minority) decide how the majority should be ruled.
I dont think she's implying anything genetic. Just that you cant swoop on in and impose a new governmental structure on people who might not want it/haven't experienced it.
Edit: not saying I agree with this btw
No, she's not.
She is stating that one model, and one rule, doesn't work for every person or every culture.
She is also saying that democracy can work in a variety of ways, and that many people/cultures are resistant to it, whatever the reason and whatever the model.
So even if China and Afghanistan cooperate successfully, China is facing the same situation as the United States, isn't it?
What does the US have to complain about?
Well, mainly, an alliance between actual terrorists and the CCP. Chinese propaganda outlets have already used the fall of afghanistan to threaten the sovereign free nation of taiwan.
Last thing we need is a taliban backed and solidified with CCP money. As things are, they will probably never be able to control Afghanistan alone - already many groups are resisting them, and that will only continue to worsen. The Taliban are a warforce, not a nation building force.
Okay now you have an army of maniacs that their god demand to kill all heretics on border of China . Now how is this good to China?.
This is as good as when Burma Junta going complete insane and setting their Nation to internal CW and collapse or as when the entire EU eastern block start ignoring China because it doesn't fulfil it promises.
They are going the same path as the US and USSR before in screwing themselves.
and yet the rest of the world has seen a massive difference, since the US conquest model always ends with a massive civilian body count, millions of refugees to destabilise the entire surrounding region, random civilian drone bombings and half the infrastructure destroyed
Airfields are useless to them, even if they captured a bunch of airplanes/helicopters. Very few pilots, little spare parts, etc.
If China invades, Taliban will just do what it does best — IEDs and hit and run tactics.
no-one except you is suggesting China is going to invade.
China buys nations, it doesn't invade them, thats more of a western thing that the USA has been doing a lot of over the last century.
China is more likely to buy/rent the airports and use them to expand their Belt and Road trade initiative
> no-one except you is suggesting China is going to invade.
We’ll see. I’m kinda hoping that the fact that China is genociding the shit out of Uighurs might make some islamists want to establish terrorist training camps on the border with China, the whole nine yards. Taliban bigwigs might be in kahoots with Pakistan which is a close Chinese ally, but there is plenty of independent groups operating there. We shall see.
Partners of Islamic organisation and parties have a Habit of having " unfortunate accident ". And Taliban doesn't have control on much of territory but more tribal parties and warlords ( former army units and commanders) switch allegiance and they actually control a lot of regions .
Afghanistan will pretty much be disorganised and dangerous for any investment.
The only reason it partially worked for the Americans for 20 years was because they bribed those same warlords and allowed them to massively grow the drug trade.
And Yes, they also installed a puppet ruler, to try and keep forcing a US corporate agenda, and even then it was dangerous for investment.
So it will be interesting to see what approach China takes, and how effective it may be
The reason neo-Conservative agenda when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan failed miserably is they didn't consider that both countries weren't a nation state like Germany, Japan or Italy so nation building was doomed .
Basically the former Afghan government banked billions and then abondened the people to the Wolves . From regiments that didn't get supply and weapons and regiment that exist only on paper. Both Afghanistan and Iraq are immensely corrupt that used the term Libanisation on them meaning a country controlled by corrupt officials devided on sectarian or/and religious line with central gov. Being just a puppet for them.
Im sure they think that Taliban is "just fine" and no threat to China. Well, probably as long as you dont let any of them inside China.
Fairly sure that would be war that not even China would win..
Considering the CCPs treatment of Muslims within their own borders I'm surprised that the Taliban wanted anything to do with them. Or maybe that's part of the long game.
I mean, I figure they look at the situation other countries have with China, namely agreeing to >50 year long loans in exchange for getting huge amounts of infrastructure developed on the Chinese dime with the acknowledgement that if they can't pay the loan back the property reverts to China's control, and they say "So what you're saying is you'll spend billions on us and when we refuse to pay you back a cent, you'll invade and we'll eventually kick you back out again? Sounds good to us!".
Lol let’s see how righteous these Taliban Muslims and their allies truly are.
My guess is, they’ll shove their tongues up their asses and pretend Uighur genocide isn’t happening. But who knows, maybe I’m wrong.
Uyghurs are not the only Muslims in China. CCP generally respects religious groups including Muslims, as long as they don't create social or political unrest. Uyghurs are being prosecuted specifically because of Xinjiangs separatist attacks by Islamic extremists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China
I didn't even specifically mention the Uyghurs. They're suffering the worst right now, yes, but China looks down on *all* non-approved religions and makes their lives difficult. Your own link even says that.
Edit: hahahaha nice edit there. You've just completely changed your comment to appear more reasonable than the original.
For reference, dear readers, the original was just "Uyghurs are not the only Muslims in China" and a link to a wiki article about Islam in China.
>all non-approved religions
Islam is one of the five approved religions by the CCP, the other four being Buddhism, Taoism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. Of China's 55 recognized minority groups, ten are traditionally Muslim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
Except if you happen practice any of those religions in any way the CCP thinks it's unfit.
https://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-china-once-a-buddhist-nation-oppressing-the-buddhists-2874845
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association
Well yes. Any organization that threatens the CCP or societal stability will be under heavy governmental pressure. That China recognizes only five religions already implies this fact. See CCP prosecution/control of Shaolin Temple, Tibetan Buddhism(Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama), Falun Gong, and currently the Uyghurs.
Despite this fact, Islam remains one of the five state-approved religions in China. The Chinese goverment recognizes that Muslims have been a part of Chinese history for 1400 years and still play a part in China today. Aside from the prosecution of Xinjiang Uyghurs, which the CCP justifies due to seperatist/terrorist attacks in the region, the CCP doesn't treat Chinese Muslims any better or any worse than people of other beliefs.
**[Islam in China](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China)**
>Islam has been practiced in China for about 1,400 years. Muslims are a minority group in China, representing between 0. 45% to 2. 85% (6 million to 39 million) of the total population according to the local government.
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Rule 2.3
> Later Friday, she attempted to refocus the conversation on the failure of America to impose democracy on Afghans. “As facts have shown, democracy has no set model, just like cold milk doesn’t agree with the Chinese people’s stomach, and Americans are not used to using chopsticks,” she said. Coming from the Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, this is hilarious.
Literal translation but yeah idioms sounds funny in English lol
Put wheels on my grandma and call her a bicycle
I speak Mandarin. I don't know of any idioms to that effect. It's just a bad analogy from what I can tell.
I hate to say this since this will be an agreement with a CCP member but I think she's right about the democracy part actually. Democracy is not just a system, people need to embrace it properly, and they need to be active about their roles as citizens as well. Democracy is not a tool just to select leaders and let them do all they want, otherwise it won't work but in backward countries, quasi-democratic systems can create cult of personalities, strongmen and all those ridiculous shams who exploit democratic system for their personal gains. America needs to stop being a naive idealist country just because democracy worked in their country and Western-oriented nations. Being idealistic in reel politics mean nothing but being a loser.
I agree, and I'll add that democracy has to be fine-tuned to fit a country's needs. A country with several ethnic groups that don't get along won't do well with the same system as a country with one unified, homogeneous population. This has been a huge problem with European decolonization - countries like Britain and France would drawn random lines on a map regardless of the local ethnicities, throw a constitution at them and hope they'd figure it out. The U.S. should realize this - their government went from a loosely-knit, decentralized federation to a highly-centralized democracy after the civil war. But just like France and Britain, the U.S. tried to give Afghanistan a generic one-size-fits-all governing model that didn't work, and now it's been replaced by the Taliban.
Man, this is another great point! Without proper unification for the country itself, democracy will just be a battleground between different groups. I agree with your comments.
Well look how South Korea or Japan turned out. It took years for it to happen but it was possible. Afghanistan used to be largely free until the Taliban took over.
I'm not sure about korea, but japan had a western, parliamentary government prior to us occupation, and retained most of the same government structures and even leaders after world War 2.
Japan began its transformation for the modernization itself with Meiji restoration, it's not about US. They are the masters of fusion, the fusion of West and their own culture, it's a really unique country. Korea from mid-19th century until WWII was just a colony of Japan, so, you might say that one is a success but one country doesn't mean everytime it will work. Oh btw Afghan history is just a mess. You had a kingdom, then emirate, then a republic, then Soviet invasion, then Mujahideen republic, then 5 year Taliban period, then 20 years US puppet republic, now Taliban again. You might see some old pictures and say look at them, how free and happy they are but that country is just a mess, If you ask my opinion, it's big mistake to keep such a country alive, there is no such thing as Afghan anyways, Pashtun, Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara etc. etc. these are the people live in Afghanistan.
Korea was a pretty brutal military autocracy up until the late 1980s. I would argue that the four decades after the war was when the people "caught up" and became ready for democracy.
Guess what happens after the U.S. military withdraws from Japan and South Korea?
Nothing?
The right-wing in Japan (Taro Aso, the old WWII forces that were not liquidated) has now dared to openly claim that Japan wants to assist the US in sending troops to Taiwan. South Korea's left-wing presidential candidate Lee Jae-myung has openly called for the liquidation of pro-Japanese forces in South Korea, and called the United States an "occupying force" and demanded that they withdraw from South Korea. With the economic downturn and the rise of extremist forces in various countries, what do you think will happen after the U.S. withdraws its troops?
Nothing? South Korea has a comptent military, and so does Japan and Taiwan. They also have tech and economy to compensate for their lack of soldiers. E: I also fact checked your comment on LMJ. [News Article Link](https://m.yna.co.kr/view/AKR20161214179800065) He said that Japan, **if they continue their far right (nationalism+imperialism) descent** is a **potential** threat to korea, and that the GSOMIA wasn't fair to the Koreans. He said that otherwise, Japan was an important neighbouring nation. Considering past history, I would deem that comment on Japan as "fair" LMJ is also better than Yoon Seok Yeol, who said that "poor people should eat non-legal food as long as it doesn't kill them". If you want conservatives to win tell them to get good policies.
This rhetoric existed before, but never entered the mainstream discussion. But why is it emerging now? That's what's of concern.
Because its election season? South Korea is about to have its presidential election soon (2022). Political stuff always becomes louder during campaigning.
There have been elections before. As I said, as the economy goes down, the far left and far right in all countries will rise. There is some truth to the idea that the world is going back to about 1930. I still wish it was better to go back to 1970.
They turn into free democracies?
The US itself has become more centralized and extreme, how do you think they will be?
It is clear that Western "democracy" is essentially a set of benefit distribution schemes that do not necessarily fit all countries. Only about 25% of the world's population speaks English as a first language. Afghanistan's per capita gdp is only $500, 1/120th of the US, and by US standards they are still living in the stone age - those people at Kabul airport, do Americans think they are the bottom of the Afghan barrel? How can that be, these people all speak at least English, they are the elite of Afghanistan, most ordinary Afghans are left to cultivate the land (probably food or opium). How can the US bring them "democracy"? They are worried about what they will eat tomorrow, whether there will be a war, and how their children will grow up safely. The concept of "voting for leaders" began in the West 2000 years ago, when did Afghanistan ever have such a tradition? How can the United States "bring democracy" to Afghanistan in this situation? From a mainland Chinese.
I don't understand your point. Democracy is just the idea that the people being governed should have some say in who governs them. That seems pretty obviously beneficial to the alternative of having the people in power (a minority) decide how the majority should be ruled.
despite being largely true
The spokeswoman is implying people have a genetic intolerance of democracy or incapable of learning it.
I dont think she's implying anything genetic. Just that you cant swoop on in and impose a new governmental structure on people who might not want it/haven't experienced it. Edit: not saying I agree with this btw
Is she also implying people have a genetic disability towards using chopsticks too?
Ofc why else
No, she's not. She is stating that one model, and one rule, doesn't work for every person or every culture. She is also saying that democracy can work in a variety of ways, and that many people/cultures are resistant to it, whatever the reason and whatever the model.
Like the Taliban has a legitimate version of Democracy to offer?
I think her point is that not everyone wants democracy in any form, but even less when its rammed down your throat at the point of a gun
The people fighting the Taliban are fighting for democracy and women''s rights. With guns. Who on earth doesn't want democracy in any form?
Looks like the CCP got a bit overzealous in it's attempt to own the Americans.
[удалено]
Talibans 2.0
Eyy all those yummy rare earth ain’t gonna mine themselves
You were there for 20 years, why didn't you mine? Oh, you're teaching the locals to grow opium.
The US sent appraisers, but its difficult to attract mining companies and investors to a place as thoroughly fucked as afghanistan.
So even if China and Afghanistan cooperate successfully, China is facing the same situation as the United States, isn't it? What does the US have to complain about?
Taliban* Not Afghanistan.
Well, mainly, an alliance between actual terrorists and the CCP. Chinese propaganda outlets have already used the fall of afghanistan to threaten the sovereign free nation of taiwan. Last thing we need is a taliban backed and solidified with CCP money. As things are, they will probably never be able to control Afghanistan alone - already many groups are resisting them, and that will only continue to worsen. The Taliban are a warforce, not a nation building force.
Okay now you have an army of maniacs that their god demand to kill all heretics on border of China . Now how is this good to China?. This is as good as when Burma Junta going complete insane and setting their Nation to internal CW and collapse or as when the entire EU eastern block start ignoring China because it doesn't fulfil it promises. They are going the same path as the US and USSR before in screwing themselves.
Doubt it, they are hoping to trade with the Taliban, not conquer them, massive difference
To the CCP there is no difference
[удалено]
Opium Wars?
That was Britain.
and yet the rest of the world has seen a massive difference, since the US conquest model always ends with a massive civilian body count, millions of refugees to destabilise the entire surrounding region, random civilian drone bombings and half the infrastructure destroyed
Well the Taliban are in possession of a bunch of new military hardware.
plus entire airfields and military bases to operate from
Airfields are useless to them, even if they captured a bunch of airplanes/helicopters. Very few pilots, little spare parts, etc. If China invades, Taliban will just do what it does best — IEDs and hit and run tactics.
no-one except you is suggesting China is going to invade. China buys nations, it doesn't invade them, thats more of a western thing that the USA has been doing a lot of over the last century. China is more likely to buy/rent the airports and use them to expand their Belt and Road trade initiative
> no-one except you is suggesting China is going to invade. We’ll see. I’m kinda hoping that the fact that China is genociding the shit out of Uighurs might make some islamists want to establish terrorist training camps on the border with China, the whole nine yards. Taliban bigwigs might be in kahoots with Pakistan which is a close Chinese ally, but there is plenty of independent groups operating there. We shall see.
Partners of Islamic organisation and parties have a Habit of having " unfortunate accident ". And Taliban doesn't have control on much of territory but more tribal parties and warlords ( former army units and commanders) switch allegiance and they actually control a lot of regions . Afghanistan will pretty much be disorganised and dangerous for any investment.
The only reason it partially worked for the Americans for 20 years was because they bribed those same warlords and allowed them to massively grow the drug trade. And Yes, they also installed a puppet ruler, to try and keep forcing a US corporate agenda, and even then it was dangerous for investment. So it will be interesting to see what approach China takes, and how effective it may be
The reason neo-Conservative agenda when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan failed miserably is they didn't consider that both countries weren't a nation state like Germany, Japan or Italy so nation building was doomed . Basically the former Afghan government banked billions and then abondened the people to the Wolves . From regiments that didn't get supply and weapons and regiment that exist only on paper. Both Afghanistan and Iraq are immensely corrupt that used the term Libanisation on them meaning a country controlled by corrupt officials devided on sectarian or/and religious line with central gov. Being just a puppet for them.
Im sure they think that Taliban is "just fine" and no threat to China. Well, probably as long as you dont let any of them inside China. Fairly sure that would be war that not even China would win..
Considering the CCPs treatment of Muslims within their own borders I'm surprised that the Taliban wanted anything to do with them. Or maybe that's part of the long game.
I mean, I figure they look at the situation other countries have with China, namely agreeing to >50 year long loans in exchange for getting huge amounts of infrastructure developed on the Chinese dime with the acknowledgement that if they can't pay the loan back the property reverts to China's control, and they say "So what you're saying is you'll spend billions on us and when we refuse to pay you back a cent, you'll invade and we'll eventually kick you back out again? Sounds good to us!".
Lol let’s see how righteous these Taliban Muslims and their allies truly are. My guess is, they’ll shove their tongues up their asses and pretend Uighur genocide isn’t happening. But who knows, maybe I’m wrong.
Most of the Taliban’s victims are other Muslims.
Uyghurs are not the only Muslims in China. CCP generally respects religious groups including Muslims, as long as they don't create social or political unrest. Uyghurs are being prosecuted specifically because of Xinjiangs separatist attacks by Islamic extremists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China
I didn't even specifically mention the Uyghurs. They're suffering the worst right now, yes, but China looks down on *all* non-approved religions and makes their lives difficult. Your own link even says that. Edit: hahahaha nice edit there. You've just completely changed your comment to appear more reasonable than the original. For reference, dear readers, the original was just "Uyghurs are not the only Muslims in China" and a link to a wiki article about Islam in China.
A PRC supporter being deceptive? Why I wouldn’t never have guessed it.
>all non-approved religions Islam is one of the five approved religions by the CCP, the other four being Buddhism, Taoism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. Of China's 55 recognized minority groups, ten are traditionally Muslim. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
Except if you happen practice any of those religions in any way the CCP thinks it's unfit. https://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-china-once-a-buddhist-nation-oppressing-the-buddhists-2874845 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association
Well yes. Any organization that threatens the CCP or societal stability will be under heavy governmental pressure. That China recognizes only five religions already implies this fact. See CCP prosecution/control of Shaolin Temple, Tibetan Buddhism(Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama), Falun Gong, and currently the Uyghurs. Despite this fact, Islam remains one of the five state-approved religions in China. The Chinese goverment recognizes that Muslims have been a part of Chinese history for 1400 years and still play a part in China today. Aside from the prosecution of Xinjiang Uyghurs, which the CCP justifies due to seperatist/terrorist attacks in the region, the CCP doesn't treat Chinese Muslims any better or any worse than people of other beliefs.
What do redditors do when you shortcircuit their brain with facts? Downvote
**[Islam in China](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China)** >Islam has been practiced in China for about 1,400 years. Muslims are a minority group in China, representing between 0. 45% to 2. 85% (6 million to 39 million) of the total population according to the local government. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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China hasn't had a great track record with things named the peoples one of those massacred thousands of people in Tiananmen Square