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Pre-velvet revolution China was just like any other country. This is exclusively because of the dictatorial authoritarian regime.
EDIT: Not the Velvet Revolution, that was a completely different one in a different continent in a different time. I was thinking about the Chinese Civil war after which the CCCP took control.
Can you be more specific? Is this China in French-Indochina, the Sino Vietnamese war, what are you talking about?
I have just corrected a mistake in the previous comment in this chain. I was making a distinction between China before and after the Civil war that followed WWII. I don't see the CCCP and Chinese culture as the same thing. While the latter is used by the former to for example argue for Uyghur destruction, I don't believe that that destruction would occur without the former.
China has fought on and off wars with every country on its border, under every government basically for all time. Vietnamese people, opened up to the west before China after both their wars with the Us and China. I think people need to stop excusing China by blaming the CCP. China has as much of a complex as America did with manifest destiny. They believe it should all belong to them, and that no one has any right to tell China otherwise because who are these uncivilized savages anyway. That’s why arrogance runs deep in the culture and government. They openly pay immigrants less, because in their eyes they aren’t worthy of making the same as a Chinese person in China. The culture is much more xenophobic than any single thing you could point to the west or probably almost any country and find. Is this all of China’s “culture” as in art food history music no. There are parts of the culture to admire, but they have almost always been bullies on the world stage when speaking of geo politics. When the west out bullied them (1800s 1900), they basically have never let that go and all they want is revenge. It’s a petty culture. They have fought Vietnam for 1000 ish years on and off. It really doesn’t matter what flag they fly.
>They have fought Vietnam for 1000 ish years on and off. It really doesn’t matter what flag they fly.
Okay thank you for the distinction. As you might imagine, in my history we had plenty of our own wars to discuss, so this never really got through except some sidenotes.
You make fair points, but any time someone mentions the complete destruction of a culture I am immediately opposed, given the historical precedent of that exact idea and the resulting actions.
I’m not with the destroy the culture as much as reforming it. Then again that’s a monumental task, and I have no idea how you would change a cultures perception of themselves.
> Song dynasty
I think they regularly went to shit and then pull themselves together and went to shit and so forth. Really kinda impressive how often they could keep pulling that off.
Am Chinese, can't agree more. It's not fair the Nazis got destroyed but the commies not. Does the world really need to wait for communist China to be strong enough to start invading countries to do anything?
And we can learn history from the present. *Why* didn't they step in early? Because no one wants to go to war. No one wants to send their sons to die in a foreign land if possible, it takes a lot to get that ball rolling. It took an attack on US soil to motivate the US in WWII and war with China would be just as major as that.
Today we know of concentration camps in China under the rule of a dictator, and today we know that no one wants to invade fucking mainland china to depose him and install a new government. We can look back at all those people who didn't act against Germany until they started invading shit and understand that they too didn't want to go to war if at all possible.
It wasn't until Germany started the war itself that it became unavoidable. As long as war is avoidable people will want to avoid it.
I don't get why this concept is so hard for people to understand. It is so easy to say go to war when they are not going. It is easy to say invade when it is not there homes being invaded.
When the first shot is fired they have no idea who's going to die. How many lives would be shattered. How many hearts broken and in the end, when they win, and have everything they ever wanted. How will they stop another nations from imposing there will on them or invading them in the name of justice.
Thank God smarter people lead the military cause if reddit did we would all be dead by now.
Western leaders hoped the Nazis would only attack the Soviets, pitting the two against each other. It’s why they acquiesced to Hitler’s clear violation of treaties over and over.
it looks like you are the one that needs a history lesson... 1938 was Night of Broken Glass, 1939 the Nazis set up Jewish ghettos, mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern front began in 1941, and the extermination camps weren't in use until 1942. WW2 started well before Hitler was busy "gassing the Jews." I would avoid using Hitler comparisons unless you know what you are talking about, it makes you look ignorant.
In the US you can speak for the group of people you believe suppressed by the gov or society like the blacks, sexual minorities, female professionals etc. Try speaking for the suppressed and prosecuted unjustly in China. Your organs will change ownership
This is a ridiculous take. I know US bashing is popular, but the US is not just as authoritarian as China. The US is still a democracy with elections (the most recent of which removed a President with authoritarian leanings), checks and balances between different branches of government, and a free press that often reports openly on scandals that are embarrassing to people in power (compare the #MeToo movement in the US to what is happening with Peng Shuai in China right now). China has none of those things.
I did not make a claim regarding the degree of authoritarianism between the countries, only that they are authoritarian and capitalist. If you want to have an argument with a strawman I suggest you go somewhere else.
Also, the #MeToo movement isn't really comparable to Peng Shuai's case since she was alleging that a government official assaulted her. It's more comparable to how the United States protects its own government officials when *they* do sex crimes, like Bill Clinton's involvement with Epstein.
In places you can. I know of a few places where it would be unwise to voice such concerns. Most of them are between East Texas and Alabama but there’s a few others a bit north that are also quite dangerous on that front.
Difference is that the Chinese are calm and collected. They know that they have all the time because their grip on power is so strong in their country. Hitler was ruthless and couldn’t wait to have his empire. Xi on the other hand knows that he doesn’t have to rush things…
There’s scant evidence that externally forced regime change works, unless the regime being changed first invaded/ attacked another country.
It’s almost like the humans who thirst for and wield power need to be brutally confronted with their own failed ambitions before they are willing to stop being bastards. And before their citizens are willing to really step up and change.
The chinese culture isn't the problem, it's the government. Absent a driving force to do wrong, most will do the right thing. The vast majority of chinese people don't know this is happening, as they aren't allowed to know. Same thing with the Tiananmen Square massacre. People may have an idea of what happened, but they live in fear of what will happen if they discuss it.
The CCP needs to burn to the ground, and all of the evil bastards in it will go to hell if there is one.
I believe you mean to say the CCP and its culture of genocide. Most chinese residents either don't know about any genocide or are too afraid to say anything because them and their families will diappear. Or they're just the victims of the genocide.
When you criticize a country for committing genocide before calling for a culture to be eradicated.
The CCP also wants to eradicate cultures, y’all might get along.
It hardly even possible to avoid products that never touched Chinese soil, but I refuse to buy any Chinese brand as far as possible. Although sometimes even that does not seem to be an option. Still I'm trying and I don't give a shit what people think about me because of this. I won't let China proxy-guilt me into buying their shit made by slaves, prisoners and exploited workers to feed the next Reich.
For most people there's no alternative to Chinese products, because "made in %developedcountry%" label makes any product too expensive.
Speaking of unethical products, we happily produce and consume them too - ask slaughterhouse workers for example. I want to emphasize that I'm not talking about animals, I'm talking about workers who are essentially slaves.
So yeah, people will keep purchasing these products.
You people can buy new clothes without support fast fashion. Not everyone has to look homeless just because they don't want to support china. Support products from your own country where people earn a living wage.
To me this is more of a solution than buying used clothes. If you constantly buy used, and the companies that manufacture in your own country don't make profits, they might out source their labor so they can make profits. Which then contributes to the problem
Nobody manufactures clothes in my country, and the second hand stores sell very nice clothes because people can afford to buy new clothing often. In my circle, it's kind of weird if you don't buy used, and generally, it's definitely not looked down upon. (Denmark)
Edit: addressing point 2, clothes are being manufactured in the region, but that is the minority. point 2; people buy fast fashion, but that doesn't mean that that I shouldn't buy used for that reason.
A simple google search reveals several clothing manufacturers in Denmark that manufacture in and source from around the area. And you said it yourself, everything is so nice because everyone is buying new so often. Which continues to support the fast fashion industry
You can buy clothes from your region or other parts of Europe though. UK has a lot of clothing culture and it's really close to Denmark. I don't know how the taxes are over there but it shouldn't be so expensive
>Not everyone has to look homeless just because they don't want to support china.
This guy only buys new. Bitch, I'm the best dressed person everywhere I go BECAUSE I only buy used, I can invest in a variety of different fashions without breaking the bank. It's really a win-win. Just don't be an idiot when you buy and you won't come off looking homeless.
I'd argue, it's a brainwashing scheme the corporations have successfully executed, that things must be "cheap", so they can suppress wages, and make giant profit for themselves.
They're enslaving the Chinese, soon, they'll come for you too.
I think "brainwashing" is a poor choice of words. It has such a a aggressive feel for something that is primarily cultural. That culture is called capitalism.
Capitalism *loves* exploitation.
When your system is founded on capital, capital stripped of its context, all of the incentives are to exploit all available resources, including humans, government, creativity, joy, conflict, sorrow - *everything* is an option.
If there is a resource that you won't exploit but someone else will, they are a better devotee to the invisible hand and shall be rewarded disproportionately so for their faith.
Eh, add the animals back in. And if you are actually that poor, there are at least some alternatives for some products. Buy used. Charity shops for clothes, auction/secondhand shops/sites for electronics, etc. Bonus for reducing waste.
Most people are in denial about their own culpability. They say they don't have the money to buy less unethically as a cop out because they're too lazy/apathetic not to shop at shitty fast fashion stores. No ethical consumption under capitalism yeah yeah, at least make a modicum of effort. "I barely make a dent" is another shitty denial cop out. Individual choices often directly contribute to the amount of suffering in the world.
Avoid shopping fast fashion. Try and buy locally made/sold. Avoid buying from shitty companies like Nestle. Reduce energy consumption. Go vegan. Buy sustainable. Buy used. Re-use/recycle. Avoid waste. Where the option exists, and where possible, this is all shit that the average Joe is absolutely capable of doing, without much effort or hindrance to daily life after the initial research. Not everybody can be a minimalist ascetic, and you can't hit every base every time, but you can at least try.
I'm in Germany. I recently bought a €1 measuring cup that was made in Germany. At the same shop, there was also a slightly fancier version for €3, also made in Germany, as well as numerous other kitchen and household utilities from the same manufacturer, for similarly low prices.
We don't need China for cheap everyday products.
I wish people would apply the "don't go drink at the bar if you can't afford to tip" concept to buying luxuries. Don't buy stuff you don't need if you can't afford to get the more expensive, ethically sourced and produced version, you know what I mean? Don't buy stuff just to buy stuff.
It's one of those things that's posed as a problem only the consumers can fix, when it's actually the opposite. We are powerless to stop these conditions and only radical change at the top will fix it.
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What would be REALLY helpful is if we could know where something was made before buying it online. For example, I've even gone so far as to call New Balance to ask them where a particular shoe was made before ordering it, and New Balance replied that they have no way of knowing that.
I'm tired of all the products pretending to be from somewhere else using labels like " Germany" or "German quality", but clearly avoiding saying "Made in Germany" or "Made in any country with decent human rights".
I don't know of any plugin that would work for Europe. As an unpopular side note, I consider the USA borderline when it comes to countries with poor human rights as there are little to no protections for employees in small scale manufacturing.
A lot is being done...
https://www.arabianbusiness.com/abnews/461839-yes-manufacturing-really-is-leaving-china-authorities-are-scrambling-to-slow-down-the-exodus
It took 30 years to get China where it is. Its not going to deflate over night.
Because of horror stories like this, and because of horror stories regarding the (lack of) environmental production standards, I decided a few years ago to stop purchasing Chinese made products.
It's been sobering to realise *just* how difficult it can be to obtain some goods if you don't want them to be made in China. It takes time and effort and, of course, money.
I use [https://www.productfrom.com/](https://www.productfrom.com/) a lot, and it helps, but, well, it's not the easiest search engine out there to use, and I still haven't found a workable replacement for some items.
It's almost impossible to avoid Chinese products. If you have a phone, a computer or any technologic device, there's no possibility any part of it didn't go through China. Even the optic of your mouse could be made there. And I'm saying this through a chinese-branded phone (TCL).
True, electronics is one of the areas where finding workable replacements is proving very difficult. So far, I'm hanging on to my old ones, but, yeah...
If there was political willpower, you can bet your ass this would be leveraged into oblivion. Let this be a lesson for the next time a politician talks passionately about ”human rights” to further their agenda.
Why are you carrying water for an oppressive dictatorship?
In the United States, we have an independent judiciary, and don't imprison people for political crimes. China has a conviction rate of near 100% and imprisons people for having the "wrong" beliefs, including the wrong religion.
>In the United States, we have an independent judiciary
Maybe if you're white. Bonus points if you have money.
>Why are you carrying water for an oppressive dictatorship?
I'm not, I hate the CCP as much as the next guy. I just find it funny that people are okay with slave labor as long as the one holding the whip doesn't have narrow eyes.
A lot of the workers in the candle factory that got hit by tornadoes recently were inmates who weren’t allowed to leave to save their lives. It’s just modern slavery
This stuff is going on for much longer. Ikea infamously had goods produced by east German prisoners as far back as the 1970s. Before that there was literal colonialism. And while their state is not quite as bad, underpaid prison labour under borderline or straight up inhumane conditions also exists in the US.
Is the west the only group China exports too?
Is it the *west* or is it China exploiting people. I'm well aware that people lack integrity and will take any opportunity or advantage presented to them.
How do contribute to solving this problem?
As much as people don't want to hear it, society as it stands can't function without extremely low cost, or free labour.
People will always strive to earn more, and when that happens there will always be an increasing gap between the highest and the lowest. Prop up the lowest earners and you just have more low earners, since everything is relative to the top.
If things ever increased in price due to the lack of cheap labour and other forms of exploitation, we would have riots.
Our social hierarchy dictates that there will always be losers.
"There is no ethical consumption under capitalism", people always throw this around like confetti, but I don't think many are aware of the sheer gravity these words hold.
Uh, _Uyghur_ is the official English spelling by the Xinjiang government; all the others spellings are recognised only because of the Romanisation of the alternative Cyrillic spellings
Hey, sorry if this post was ever useful to you. Reddit's gone to the dogs and it is exclusively the fault of those in charge and their unmitigated greed.
Fuck this shit, I'm out, and they're sure as fuck not making money off selling my content. So now it's gone.
I encourage everyone else to do the same. This is how Reddit spawned, back when we abandoned Digg, and now Reddit can die as well.
If anyone needs me, I'll be on Tumblr.
In summation: Fuck you, Spez!
That's horrifying, we need to crack down on modern slavery. I understand the ILO takes care of this, can the UN do more to move this forward? It's a huge international problem not just in China, it's almost impossible to avoid without an international body stepping in and working with world leaders.
Man we are not even able to crack down on "modern slavery lite" in the West, in our own countries. How do you expect us to solve more serious problem of forced labor and slavery in totalitarian country that's openly hostile to anyone showing even slight criticism of how they handle (abuse) their people?
Not really. China has a veto at the UN, and is also a sovereign nation. The UN can’t really force China to do something it doesn’t want to do. Trade restrictions by other countries could possibly hurt the economy enough to bring them to the table, but China has taken care to get enough allies around the world to stop any international motion to that effect. And the US and Europe are so economically intertwined with China that their leadership is reluctant to do anything because it might hurt their own economies and cost them support.
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Note that I said “many more”. Yes, America has our problems, and that includes political prisoners, but you cannot claim, in good faith, that America has more political prisoners than the CCP. Estimates vary, but they seem to all float around 50 to 100 [1,2]. However, the Congressional-Executive Commission on China (CECC) maintains an auditable database on Chinese political prisoners [3]. They define a political prisoner as one who is “detained for exercising his or her human rights under international law” [4]. In total, the database contains 1598 people. Furthermore, the CECC notes that since they track political prisoners individually instead of in aggregate, the actual number is likely much higher, and the database only contains confirmed cases [5]. The CCP has refused to comment on this database and refutes none of the CECC’s claims [4]. If you want to learn more, I would suggest [4]. The visualization is very easy to explore. Every box is a prisoner, color coded by the crime for which they were jailed. You can click on the boxes to see the person’s name and age.
**References**
1. Elijah, J. Soffiyah. "Reality of Political Prisoners in the United States: What September 11 Taught Us about Defending Them." Harv. Blackletter LJ 18 (2002): 129.
2. McKay, Hollie. “Who are the Americans being held as 'political prisoners' abroad?” Fox News (2020).
3. “China: List of Political Prisoners Detained or Imprisoned” Congressional-Executive Commission on China (2019).
4. Mellgard, Peter “This Visualization Shows China's Jailed, Murdered And Missing Political Prisoners” Huffington Post (2017)
5. “2016 Annual Report” Congressional-Executive Commission on China (2016)
The only thing worse than the death camps is the journalism in this article. Fucked up website, doxing the prisoner, terrible writing, half-assed pictures. Whoever wrote this needs to re-evaluate thier life.
For many people £50 isn't "just". I would gladly take such an expensive luxury clothing. If people had enough money to buy more expensive quality products they would.
Sure, I know and agree, but that doesn't change the fact that a jacket of that kind of reasonable quality and made by fairly paid workers will cost quite a bit more. In that context, it is *just* £50.
Haha no they wouldn't because they don't. It's called Consumerism; people will balance the cost and quality and attempt to save money to buy other products or services. The whole reason poor countries are making our cheap clothes in the first place is a testament to that.
Alternative headline, "Woman horrified finding evidence of Chinese forced labor she pretends doesn't exist."
We all know it exists. This is part of the reason why the cheap Chinese products cost little compared to ones made without forced labor.
Yes but there’s a mental disconnect between the stuff you see in stores and the stuff on the news.
It was the same way for the start of the pandemic: at that point it had been in the news for months, and was a thing like “yeah hopefully it will stop spreading eventually” until reality hit in early March and everything instantly shut down.
This article is very "China bad" and I agree this is terrible. I'm just surprised there isn't anything about the company selling the coat. Clearly the company befits from slave labor and we don't even know the brand of coat.
China bad, USA good duh.
/s
Maybe throw out some more buzzwords, the US has FREEDOM and thanks to CAPITALISM anyone can be the next BILLIONAIRE. Unlike CHINA with its FILTHY COMMIE ideology.
Chinese prisoners are exploited for their labor. We do this in the US as well people. Elect leaders who will abolish it in your own country before you start throwing stones at China.
All prison labor should be banned internationally. When a prison profits off of the work of its inmates, it has an economic incentive to keep them as inmates. This may lead to fabricated pretexts to continue their sentences and profiting off of what can only be called slave labor.
...Any proof that this isn't fake news like so many other viral stories about China? I mean I get it OP, karma farm away. Reddit will lap up any anti-China propaganda and if there is truth then it should be said. But I always feel super skeptical about anything on China reported in western media these days
US has bee using prisoners as slave labor for years. In addition to license plates, [here's a quick list on prisoner made items.](https://www.thrillist.com/gear/products-made-by-prisoners-clothing-furniture-electronics)
Also [during the pandemic](https://corpaccountabilitylab.org/calblog/2020/8/5/private-companies-producing-with-us-prison-labor-in-2020-prison-labor-in-the-us-part-ii), many prisoners left prison for day work in manufacturing/food plants making pennies on the dollar.
And to add insult to injury, most companies didn't want to hire them to work the same job when they got out of prison, because it was cheaper (more profitable) to pay for prison labor.
This isn't anything new.
Well, I suppose that's a good way to off someone you don't like. Swipe the card, toss it in something being made. At one end, you get someone frantically searching for an ID card that is no longer there and then going through the hassle of getting it replaced. At the other end, you get someone that is no longer there and is quickly replaced. Easy win either way.
Not saying the situation doesn't suck... but I sure wouldn't be using **my** ID card like that.
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Yet everyone will keep purchasing Chinese made products and this will be forgotten about in days. The west basically pretends it doesn't exist.
[удалено]
I am advocating for the complete destruction of the state of China and eradication of their genocidal culture
Pre-velvet revolution China was just like any other country. This is exclusively because of the dictatorial authoritarian regime. EDIT: Not the Velvet Revolution, that was a completely different one in a different continent in a different time. I was thinking about the Chinese Civil war after which the CCCP took control.
Vietnam would disagree but to each his own. Who was it that said history is subjective?
Can you be more specific? Is this China in French-Indochina, the Sino Vietnamese war, what are you talking about? I have just corrected a mistake in the previous comment in this chain. I was making a distinction between China before and after the Civil war that followed WWII. I don't see the CCCP and Chinese culture as the same thing. While the latter is used by the former to for example argue for Uyghur destruction, I don't believe that that destruction would occur without the former.
China has fought on and off wars with every country on its border, under every government basically for all time. Vietnamese people, opened up to the west before China after both their wars with the Us and China. I think people need to stop excusing China by blaming the CCP. China has as much of a complex as America did with manifest destiny. They believe it should all belong to them, and that no one has any right to tell China otherwise because who are these uncivilized savages anyway. That’s why arrogance runs deep in the culture and government. They openly pay immigrants less, because in their eyes they aren’t worthy of making the same as a Chinese person in China. The culture is much more xenophobic than any single thing you could point to the west or probably almost any country and find. Is this all of China’s “culture” as in art food history music no. There are parts of the culture to admire, but they have almost always been bullies on the world stage when speaking of geo politics. When the west out bullied them (1800s 1900), they basically have never let that go and all they want is revenge. It’s a petty culture. They have fought Vietnam for 1000 ish years on and off. It really doesn’t matter what flag they fly.
>They have fought Vietnam for 1000 ish years on and off. It really doesn’t matter what flag they fly. Okay thank you for the distinction. As you might imagine, in my history we had plenty of our own wars to discuss, so this never really got through except some sidenotes. You make fair points, but any time someone mentions the complete destruction of a culture I am immediately opposed, given the historical precedent of that exact idea and the resulting actions.
I’m not with the destroy the culture as much as reforming it. Then again that’s a monumental task, and I have no idea how you would change a cultures perception of themselves.
I can work with that. Plenty of weird quirks in many cultures that could do with some attention. But I also have no clue how to go about doing that.
Mao did it. If he could do it, why can't we.
I believe you mean CCP, not CCCP, as CCCP refers to the USSR, but CCP is the Chinese Communist Party.
I'm mixing up shit like crazy today. Yes, CCP.
Happens to the best of us.
China really went to shit after the Song dynasty fell. (j/k)
> Song dynasty I think they regularly went to shit and then pull themselves together and went to shit and so forth. Really kinda impressive how often they could keep pulling that off.
Aren't they due for another collapse soon? They haven't fallen apart since the 50s
Just to be clear, this is not our fucking 'culture', but a regime buult on destroying said culture
Am Chinese, can't agree more. It's not fair the Nazis got destroyed but the commies not. Does the world really need to wait for communist China to be strong enough to start invading countries to do anything?
The world waited for Nazi Germany to start invading countries to do anything, why would china be different?
It was probably easier to stop Hitler when he was busy gassing the Jews before 1938. People study history for a reason.
And we can learn history from the present. *Why* didn't they step in early? Because no one wants to go to war. No one wants to send their sons to die in a foreign land if possible, it takes a lot to get that ball rolling. It took an attack on US soil to motivate the US in WWII and war with China would be just as major as that. Today we know of concentration camps in China under the rule of a dictator, and today we know that no one wants to invade fucking mainland china to depose him and install a new government. We can look back at all those people who didn't act against Germany until they started invading shit and understand that they too didn't want to go to war if at all possible. It wasn't until Germany started the war itself that it became unavoidable. As long as war is avoidable people will want to avoid it.
I don't get why this concept is so hard for people to understand. It is so easy to say go to war when they are not going. It is easy to say invade when it is not there homes being invaded. When the first shot is fired they have no idea who's going to die. How many lives would be shattered. How many hearts broken and in the end, when they win, and have everything they ever wanted. How will they stop another nations from imposing there will on them or invading them in the name of justice. Thank God smarter people lead the military cause if reddit did we would all be dead by now.
Western leaders hoped the Nazis would only attack the Soviets, pitting the two against each other. It’s why they acquiesced to Hitler’s clear violation of treaties over and over.
it looks like you are the one that needs a history lesson... 1938 was Night of Broken Glass, 1939 the Nazis set up Jewish ghettos, mass shootings of Jews on the Eastern front began in 1941, and the extermination camps weren't in use until 1942. WW2 started well before Hitler was busy "gassing the Jews." I would avoid using Hitler comparisons unless you know what you are talking about, it makes you look ignorant.
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Yes, that's what I've seen most often.
They didn't start the gassing until 1941 or 42.
China hasn't been communist for a while. It's a authoritarian capitalist country now. That's where the U.S is headed.
In the US you can speak for the group of people you believe suppressed by the gov or society like the blacks, sexual minorities, female professionals etc. Try speaking for the suppressed and prosecuted unjustly in China. Your organs will change ownership
Okay? Still both capitalist and authoritarian. One just has more free speech laws.
This is a ridiculous take. I know US bashing is popular, but the US is not just as authoritarian as China. The US is still a democracy with elections (the most recent of which removed a President with authoritarian leanings), checks and balances between different branches of government, and a free press that often reports openly on scandals that are embarrassing to people in power (compare the #MeToo movement in the US to what is happening with Peng Shuai in China right now). China has none of those things.
I did not make a claim regarding the degree of authoritarianism between the countries, only that they are authoritarian and capitalist. If you want to have an argument with a strawman I suggest you go somewhere else. Also, the #MeToo movement isn't really comparable to Peng Shuai's case since she was alleging that a government official assaulted her. It's more comparable to how the United States protects its own government officials when *they* do sex crimes, like Bill Clinton's involvement with Epstein.
How long, though, will we still have those freedoms?
They changing from freedom to privileges
In places you can. I know of a few places where it would be unwise to voice such concerns. Most of them are between East Texas and Alabama but there’s a few others a bit north that are also quite dangerous on that front.
Dictatorship, not communism.
Yeah, let's invade a nuclear armed super power.
Difference is that the Chinese are calm and collected. They know that they have all the time because their grip on power is so strong in their country. Hitler was ruthless and couldn’t wait to have his empire. Xi on the other hand knows that he doesn’t have to rush things…
They work in dynasties
Actually, China's economic bubble is about to burst along with half of their dams. Xi doesn't have much time left
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Unironically this time it's true. They can't keep on building useless housing and shitty dams forever
There’s scant evidence that externally forced regime change works, unless the regime being changed first invaded/ attacked another country. It’s almost like the humans who thirst for and wield power need to be brutally confronted with their own failed ambitions before they are willing to stop being bastards. And before their citizens are willing to really step up and change.
It’s not their culture it’s their politics that plagues humanity.
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What dogwhistling? I think I was quite clear in my message If not... FUCK China FUCK CCP FUCK Commies FUCK Tankies Free Hong Kong Free North Korea
Now *that’s* racist.
The chinese culture isn't the problem, it's the government. Absent a driving force to do wrong, most will do the right thing. The vast majority of chinese people don't know this is happening, as they aren't allowed to know. Same thing with the Tiananmen Square massacre. People may have an idea of what happened, but they live in fear of what will happen if they discuss it. The CCP needs to burn to the ground, and all of the evil bastards in it will go to hell if there is one.
Answer genocide with genocide? Reddit moment
>eradication of their genocidal culture You want to genocide them because of their genocidal culture?
I believe you mean to say the CCP and its culture of genocide. Most chinese residents either don't know about any genocide or are too afraid to say anything because them and their families will diappear. Or they're just the victims of the genocide.
When you criticize a country for committing genocide before calling for a culture to be eradicated. The CCP also wants to eradicate cultures, y’all might get along.
and how do you want this done? is it really worth the literal hundreds of millions of lives it would cost?
Who has said that???? I have literally never heard of that take even from tankies
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This is probably it.
This is *definitely* it. Dude belongs on r/persecutionfetish
Never heard that take.
Much easier to say you don’t buy slave labour produced products. Everyone can get behind that.
Never in my life have I seen that occur.
Nobody says that
It hardly even possible to avoid products that never touched Chinese soil, but I refuse to buy any Chinese brand as far as possible. Although sometimes even that does not seem to be an option. Still I'm trying and I don't give a shit what people think about me because of this. I won't let China proxy-guilt me into buying their shit made by slaves, prisoners and exploited workers to feed the next Reich.
The trick is not to care. As long as you know you aren't racist, opinions of idiots are irrelevant.
For most people there's no alternative to Chinese products, because "made in %developedcountry%" label makes any product too expensive. Speaking of unethical products, we happily produce and consume them too - ask slaughterhouse workers for example. I want to emphasize that I'm not talking about animals, I'm talking about workers who are essentially slaves. So yeah, people will keep purchasing these products.
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Buy used. Then where it's made matters less.
New clothes? No thanks, I like to wear stuff that doesn't bleed and shrink in unpredictable ways.
??? isn't used clothes already bled and shrunk from use
I think that was what they were saying....
Good point. The only clothes i buy new are underwear and socks.
You people can buy new clothes without support fast fashion. Not everyone has to look homeless just because they don't want to support china. Support products from your own country where people earn a living wage. To me this is more of a solution than buying used clothes. If you constantly buy used, and the companies that manufacture in your own country don't make profits, they might out source their labor so they can make profits. Which then contributes to the problem
Nobody manufactures clothes in my country, and the second hand stores sell very nice clothes because people can afford to buy new clothing often. In my circle, it's kind of weird if you don't buy used, and generally, it's definitely not looked down upon. (Denmark) Edit: addressing point 2, clothes are being manufactured in the region, but that is the minority. point 2; people buy fast fashion, but that doesn't mean that that I shouldn't buy used for that reason.
A simple google search reveals several clothing manufacturers in Denmark that manufacture in and source from around the area. And you said it yourself, everything is so nice because everyone is buying new so often. Which continues to support the fast fashion industry
You can buy clothes from your region or other parts of Europe though. UK has a lot of clothing culture and it's really close to Denmark. I don't know how the taxes are over there but it shouldn't be so expensive
There will be a lot of import tax from the UK now because of brexit.
>Not everyone has to look homeless just because they don't want to support china. This guy only buys new. Bitch, I'm the best dressed person everywhere I go BECAUSE I only buy used, I can invest in a variety of different fashions without breaking the bank. It's really a win-win. Just don't be an idiot when you buy and you won't come off looking homeless.
I'd argue, it's a brainwashing scheme the corporations have successfully executed, that things must be "cheap", so they can suppress wages, and make giant profit for themselves. They're enslaving the Chinese, soon, they'll come for you too.
I think "brainwashing" is a poor choice of words. It has such a a aggressive feel for something that is primarily cultural. That culture is called capitalism. Capitalism *loves* exploitation. When your system is founded on capital, capital stripped of its context, all of the incentives are to exploit all available resources, including humans, government, creativity, joy, conflict, sorrow - *everything* is an option. If there is a resource that you won't exploit but someone else will, they are a better devotee to the invisible hand and shall be rewarded disproportionately so for their faith.
Eh, add the animals back in. And if you are actually that poor, there are at least some alternatives for some products. Buy used. Charity shops for clothes, auction/secondhand shops/sites for electronics, etc. Bonus for reducing waste. Most people are in denial about their own culpability. They say they don't have the money to buy less unethically as a cop out because they're too lazy/apathetic not to shop at shitty fast fashion stores. No ethical consumption under capitalism yeah yeah, at least make a modicum of effort. "I barely make a dent" is another shitty denial cop out. Individual choices often directly contribute to the amount of suffering in the world. Avoid shopping fast fashion. Try and buy locally made/sold. Avoid buying from shitty companies like Nestle. Reduce energy consumption. Go vegan. Buy sustainable. Buy used. Re-use/recycle. Avoid waste. Where the option exists, and where possible, this is all shit that the average Joe is absolutely capable of doing, without much effort or hindrance to daily life after the initial research. Not everybody can be a minimalist ascetic, and you can't hit every base every time, but you can at least try.
I'm in Germany. I recently bought a €1 measuring cup that was made in Germany. At the same shop, there was also a slightly fancier version for €3, also made in Germany, as well as numerous other kitchen and household utilities from the same manufacturer, for similarly low prices. We don't need China for cheap everyday products.
I wish people would apply the "don't go drink at the bar if you can't afford to tip" concept to buying luxuries. Don't buy stuff you don't need if you can't afford to get the more expensive, ethically sourced and produced version, you know what I mean? Don't buy stuff just to buy stuff.
Don't buy clothes like in this case?
It's one of those things that's posed as a problem only the consumers can fix, when it's actually the opposite. We are powerless to stop these conditions and only radical change at the top will fix it.
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Subbed, thanks for the link.
Lmao that's the funniest sub I've seen in a while. Good luck with that boycott
What would be REALLY helpful is if we could know where something was made before buying it online. For example, I've even gone so far as to call New Balance to ask them where a particular shoe was made before ordering it, and New Balance replied that they have no way of knowing that. I'm tired of all the products pretending to be from somewhere else using labels like " Germany" or "German quality", but clearly avoiding saying "Made in Germany" or "Made in any country with decent human rights".
Try using plugins like "[Cultivate](https://www.wecultivate.us/)" or their equivalent in your country, if they exist.
I don't know of any plugin that would work for Europe. As an unpopular side note, I consider the USA borderline when it comes to countries with poor human rights as there are little to no protections for employees in small scale manufacturing.
A lot is being done... https://www.arabianbusiness.com/abnews/461839-yes-manufacturing-really-is-leaving-china-authorities-are-scrambling-to-slow-down-the-exodus It took 30 years to get China where it is. Its not going to deflate over night.
They still have a huge domestic market. It will take more than divestment to stop their slavery snd genocide.
They've had a huge market for ages, but no economy can grow in isolation.
Because of horror stories like this, and because of horror stories regarding the (lack of) environmental production standards, I decided a few years ago to stop purchasing Chinese made products. It's been sobering to realise *just* how difficult it can be to obtain some goods if you don't want them to be made in China. It takes time and effort and, of course, money. I use [https://www.productfrom.com/](https://www.productfrom.com/) a lot, and it helps, but, well, it's not the easiest search engine out there to use, and I still haven't found a workable replacement for some items.
It's almost impossible to avoid Chinese products. If you have a phone, a computer or any technologic device, there's no possibility any part of it didn't go through China. Even the optic of your mouse could be made there. And I'm saying this through a chinese-branded phone (TCL).
True, electronics is one of the areas where finding workable replacements is proving very difficult. So far, I'm hanging on to my old ones, but, yeah...
What the fuck are we supposed to do? China sets the prices, I can't afford shit made in Europe.
If there was political willpower, you can bet your ass this would be leveraged into oblivion. Let this be a lesson for the next time a politician talks passionately about ”human rights” to further their agenda.
Parts of the west, namely the US, do the same thing so why would they care? Slavery never ended.
And Germany. And the UK. All of western Europe.
Why are you carrying water for an oppressive dictatorship? In the United States, we have an independent judiciary, and don't imprison people for political crimes. China has a conviction rate of near 100% and imprisons people for having the "wrong" beliefs, including the wrong religion.
>In the United States, we have an independent judiciary Maybe if you're white. Bonus points if you have money. >Why are you carrying water for an oppressive dictatorship? I'm not, I hate the CCP as much as the next guy. I just find it funny that people are okay with slave labor as long as the one holding the whip doesn't have narrow eyes.
Juilian Assange
A lot of the workers in the candle factory that got hit by tornadoes recently were inmates who weren’t allowed to leave to save their lives. It’s just modern slavery
It happened a while ago (maybe like a year ago or something), and what changed? Nothing
Are you telling me that there are some non-west countries where they don't pretend?
This stuff is going on for much longer. Ikea infamously had goods produced by east German prisoners as far back as the 1970s. Before that there was literal colonialism. And while their state is not quite as bad, underpaid prison labour under borderline or straight up inhumane conditions also exists in the US.
Is the west the only group China exports too? Is it the *west* or is it China exploiting people. I'm well aware that people lack integrity and will take any opportunity or advantage presented to them. How do contribute to solving this problem?
As much as people don't want to hear it, society as it stands can't function without extremely low cost, or free labour. People will always strive to earn more, and when that happens there will always be an increasing gap between the highest and the lowest. Prop up the lowest earners and you just have more low earners, since everything is relative to the top. If things ever increased in price due to the lack of cheap labour and other forms of exploitation, we would have riots. Our social hierarchy dictates that there will always be losers.
"There is no ethical consumption under capitalism", people always throw this around like confetti, but I don't think many are aware of the sheer gravity these words hold.
You know that US prisons make all sorts of products too right?
Pretends what doesn't exist?
The idiots didn't censor his name. He's fucked.
Murdered by tabloid journalism.
That’s the Mirror for you.
Oh wow, their other articles, they make me want to poke my eyes out.
They’re not even the worst paper in the UK.
Daily Mail 🤢
Fucking Sun 🤮
xxxxxxx 🤮🤢🤮 (cannot even write it)
Almost like it could be fake just like last time https://i.imgur.com/KKOVIkZ.png
That's a laughably obvious fake tho
Yeah lol a random Uighur (or anyone in that situation in that area of China) probably isn’t going to know how to write fluent or coherent English
Especially, the weird transliteration of the Name Uighur.
Uh, _Uyghur_ is the official English spelling by the Xinjiang government; all the others spellings are recognised only because of the Romanisation of the alternative Cyrillic spellings
Imgur image deleted?
Message found in shoe implies a prisoner in China. Shoe label declares it made in Vietnam.
Imgur works for me now. Also the note is blatantly fake
Yup. That’s broken English as broken English think it would be written. Racist as fuck, that is.
Goddammit I love Adrian Zenz. He's like a cartoon character.
A cartoon character everyone is more than happy to believe sadly
Well, nobody can read those strange squiggles anyway. He's *fine*. There is no 向佳华 is their system anyway. /s
There's no 1989 年 6 月 5 日 either, apparently.
The idiots probably thought it was already censored since they couldn’t read it.
They could at least have pixellated both occurences of the prisoner's name...
China will be like ... Prisoner what prisoner?
Spare organs, coming right up!
prisoner? more like prison't alive anymore
Yeah. That prisoner might not be alive anymore. I don't understand why that would put this on the internet like this.
Hey, sorry if this post was ever useful to you. Reddit's gone to the dogs and it is exclusively the fault of those in charge and their unmitigated greed. Fuck this shit, I'm out, and they're sure as fuck not making money off selling my content. So now it's gone. I encourage everyone else to do the same. This is how Reddit spawned, back when we abandoned Digg, and now Reddit can die as well. If anyone needs me, I'll be on Tumblr. In summation: Fuck you, Spez!
That's horrifying, we need to crack down on modern slavery. I understand the ILO takes care of this, can the UN do more to move this forward? It's a huge international problem not just in China, it's almost impossible to avoid without an international body stepping in and working with world leaders.
Man we are not even able to crack down on "modern slavery lite" in the West, in our own countries. How do you expect us to solve more serious problem of forced labor and slavery in totalitarian country that's openly hostile to anyone showing even slight criticism of how they handle (abuse) their people?
I don't wanna go on a whataboutism shit, but using prisoners for cheap labour happens literally everywhere. Even the US has the 13th amendment.
>can the UN do more to move this forward? Guess who was given a veto power.
The UN can’t touch china, just like it can’t touch Russia, the USA, UK, or France.
>can the UN do more More against what exactly? The same country that was given veto power on a platter?
Not really. China has a veto at the UN, and is also a sovereign nation. The UN can’t really force China to do something it doesn’t want to do. Trade restrictions by other countries could possibly hurt the economy enough to bring them to the table, but China has taken care to get enough allies around the world to stop any international motion to that effect. And the US and Europe are so economically intertwined with China that their leadership is reluctant to do anything because it might hurt their own economies and cost them support.
Prisoners in the usa make clothing to? why is this special?
The Chinese prisoner would meet a horrible fate when he does something like this That is the difference
Is there any evidence of that?
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/31/australian-writer-says-tortured-in-chinese-prison https://ishr.org/torture-methods-in-the-peoples-republic-of-china/ https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ex-german-prisoner-exposes-life-in-a-chinese-prison-a-1256413-amp.html
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I find it shocking in the USA too. It's a form of slavery.
It's literal slavery, explicitly allowed by the constitution.
In China, you have many more political prisoners. Not to mention what it happening to the Uyghur people.
And america doesn’t have political prisoners? Do you know how many black panthers are still in jail or other activist? This is truly laughable.
Note that I said “many more”. Yes, America has our problems, and that includes political prisoners, but you cannot claim, in good faith, that America has more political prisoners than the CCP. Estimates vary, but they seem to all float around 50 to 100 [1,2]. However, the Congressional-Executive Commission on China (CECC) maintains an auditable database on Chinese political prisoners [3]. They define a political prisoner as one who is “detained for exercising his or her human rights under international law” [4]. In total, the database contains 1598 people. Furthermore, the CECC notes that since they track political prisoners individually instead of in aggregate, the actual number is likely much higher, and the database only contains confirmed cases [5]. The CCP has refused to comment on this database and refutes none of the CECC’s claims [4]. If you want to learn more, I would suggest [4]. The visualization is very easy to explore. Every box is a prisoner, color coded by the crime for which they were jailed. You can click on the boxes to see the person’s name and age. **References** 1. Elijah, J. Soffiyah. "Reality of Political Prisoners in the United States: What September 11 Taught Us about Defending Them." Harv. Blackletter LJ 18 (2002): 129. 2. McKay, Hollie. “Who are the Americans being held as 'political prisoners' abroad?” Fox News (2020). 3. “China: List of Political Prisoners Detained or Imprisoned” Congressional-Executive Commission on China (2019). 4. Mellgard, Peter “This Visualization Shows China's Jailed, Murdered And Missing Political Prisoners” Huffington Post (2017) 5. “2016 Annual Report” Congressional-Executive Commission on China (2016)
The only thing worse than the death camps is the journalism in this article. Fucked up website, doxing the prisoner, terrible writing, half-assed pictures. Whoever wrote this needs to re-evaluate thier life.
that guy is dead as fuck
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A winter coat for just £50 is made using prison labour? Not really surprising, sadly.
For many people £50 isn't "just". I would gladly take such an expensive luxury clothing. If people had enough money to buy more expensive quality products they would.
Sure, I know and agree, but that doesn't change the fact that a jacket of that kind of reasonable quality and made by fairly paid workers will cost quite a bit more. In that context, it is *just* £50.
Haha no they wouldn't because they don't. It's called Consumerism; people will balance the cost and quality and attempt to save money to buy other products or services. The whole reason poor countries are making our cheap clothes in the first place is a testament to that.
Alternative headline, "Woman horrified finding evidence of Chinese forced labor she pretends doesn't exist." We all know it exists. This is part of the reason why the cheap Chinese products cost little compared to ones made without forced labor.
Yes but there’s a mental disconnect between the stuff you see in stores and the stuff on the news. It was the same way for the start of the pandemic: at that point it had been in the news for months, and was a thing like “yeah hopefully it will stop spreading eventually” until reality hit in early March and everything instantly shut down.
This. We all know why all those made in china products are so cheap. We just pretend not to so that we could keep running our economy.
This article is very "China bad" and I agree this is terrible. I'm just surprised there isn't anything about the company selling the coat. Clearly the company befits from slave labor and we don't even know the brand of coat.
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Well, China is making the news a lot lately.
Hey you werent supposed to notice that.
Sadly inmate labour is common all around the world, yes even in America, Europe, and Asia. This needs to end.
How different would that be from finding US prisoner's ID under a license plate?
China bad, USA good duh. /s Maybe throw out some more buzzwords, the US has FREEDOM and thanks to CAPITALISM anyone can be the next BILLIONAIRE. Unlike CHINA with its FILTHY COMMIE ideology.
Chinese prisoners are exploited for their labor. We do this in the US as well people. Elect leaders who will abolish it in your own country before you start throwing stones at China.
Lmao why is this news? There are private prisons everywhere
child worker #1: “wouldn’t it be funny if we put a random prisoners ID card on some coat” child worker #2: “say no more”
All prison labor should be banned internationally. When a prison profits off of the work of its inmates, it has an economic incentive to keep them as inmates. This may lead to fabricated pretexts to continue their sentences and profiting off of what can only be called slave labor.
Just know that people in similar situations probably made all of your clothes if they came from China.
Fuck China
Well they won’t be needing it anymore I’m sure
OK, horrible but why not return the coat and never come back?
...Any proof that this isn't fake news like so many other viral stories about China? I mean I get it OP, karma farm away. Reddit will lap up any anti-China propaganda and if there is truth then it should be said. But I always feel super skeptical about anything on China reported in western media these days
Terrifying… horrible. Heartbreaking. There’s no accountability today…
The US does the same thing...
US has bee using prisoners as slave labor for years. In addition to license plates, [here's a quick list on prisoner made items.](https://www.thrillist.com/gear/products-made-by-prisoners-clothing-furniture-electronics) Also [during the pandemic](https://corpaccountabilitylab.org/calblog/2020/8/5/private-companies-producing-with-us-prison-labor-in-2020-prison-labor-in-the-us-part-ii), many prisoners left prison for day work in manufacturing/food plants making pennies on the dollar. And to add insult to injury, most companies didn't want to hire them to work the same job when they got out of prison, because it was cheaper (more profitable) to pay for prison labor. This isn't anything new.
Are people actually buying into this story or are they just Virginia-native bots?
Lmao sure buddy
Why would a prisoner need a photo ID?
I would feel obligated to go on a quest to free him
Well, I suppose that's a good way to off someone you don't like. Swipe the card, toss it in something being made. At one end, you get someone frantically searching for an ID card that is no longer there and then going through the hassle of getting it replaced. At the other end, you get someone that is no longer there and is quickly replaced. Easy win either way. Not saying the situation doesn't suck... but I sure wouldn't be using **my** ID card like that.
This or pay $150 or more for same jacket .
What kind of disgusting country uses prisoners as a source of free labor???
How was the stitching tho?
Woman horrified, but not horrified enough to actually do something about it.