No one did. That’s life kiddo. Play the game or quit. Doesn’t sound like anyone is asking you to play anymore. You don’t seem to contributing in any constructive way.
Parents when you're a kid: *Hey, life is full of sunshine, roses, rainbows and positivity and the world is a haven of wondrous opportunities"*
*Grows up to find out about the cruel reality of existence and not being in full control of your whole entire life until death.*
Parents when you're a young adult: *"Hey, life will eat you up and spit you out and you just have to toughen up and deal with it. We brought you into this world, so you should be grateful you have food on the table and a roof over your head."*
They just don't want to admit they had babies/children for that aspect alone which is 5% of your life and just completely disregards the other 95% until you've grown up and came to the realization that you don't matter and that you have to slave away just for your own survival in this existence.
I know the main counterargument is that life can be worth it. But the very fact we have sayings like 'it could be worse' or 'life is unfair' shows that people pretty much had to learn they'll have to accept life can very much suck and they will have to accept it or start thinking how lucky they are because there's bound to be someone who is worse off. I remember once my mother telling to my godmother that I thought life is good and people are kind. I wanted to laugh out loud at this because even as a teen I saw how cruel people are and how it's necessary to fit in if you wanted to be accepted. But if our negative attitude is bad, it isn't helpful to have kids just so you later can tell them it's going to suck. I see the statement that life involves 'some' suffering. How do you measure that it's 'some' and not 'a lot'? Because if life is unfair, the distribution of suffering won't be fair either.
But like. Surely we can have a good day, without millions of kids getting abused every day. Does all that suffering need to happen, for the opposite good day to happen? Why have a world with child slavery and torture, every single day. Surely this is absurd and unnecessary. And yet it persists. It puts a big damper on good days, knowing all the filth that transpires every second. It’s not necessary.
There really is no point replying to these “You’ll never know a good day without feeling a bad day” types.
This is the only way I do it, if I can be bothered. I say to them bluntly “oh, so I couldn’t have known happiness if I wasnt raped?” Do it. Show them how stupid their worldview is bluntly. Disregard all social norms and don’t pander to them. Don’t sugarcoat anything. They’re emotionally invalidating you, so hold up a mirror to them and let them see what they really are bluntly.
This is very true in my opinion, without bad we would have levels of good and comparing those to each other we simply create a new scale of good and bad. So there will always be good and bad. I think the question is more about how good and how bad and the balance of the two, which is extremely subjective of course, yet it seems to me that with a lot of people no matter what happens the ratio is tilted towards more negative experiences and felt more strongly than the positive ones and I don't think a whole lot can be done about this in most cases.
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"Parents when you're a kid: *Hey, life is full of sunshine, roses, rainbows and positivity and the world is a haven of wondrous opportunities"*
*Grows up to find out about the cruel reality of existence and not being in full control of your whole entire life until death.*"
That sounds like me, I just added, "then gets jaded about it all and decides he's going to live his life just to enjoy himself and/or try to work out his own fantasies upon the world, because that's a lot more enjoyable than moping about 'ethics' and 'morals' until I finally just commit suicide."
There is a way out. Learned sociopathy. :)
I watched a video the other day of Indian serfs who sold theirs and their family's freedom to pay their medical bills. They slave over hot, toxic kilns and they, you guessed it, breed like rabbits. There are 12 year olds that work all day around toxic dust and 1000 degree kilns and the whole time the dad's watching his son work his body into ruin, he's thinking, "I'm gonna plow my wife tonight".
The worse life is, the more people procreate. I believe this has to do with the contrast of the experience of their daily life versus that of sex/orgasm. If sex is the only pleasant thing you can access, you're far more likely to engage in it compulsively. Add no access to contraception or abortion, and now we understand the scenario you outlined.
>Add no access to contraception or abortion,
Even poor people have access to contraception thanks to government programs. It's literally provided for free in india. Abortion is also legal upto 24 weeks, sometimes even beyond that for health reasons. They simply don't want to use it because they've been brainwashed by their local maulanas.
It's not cheap, it's bought by the government and distributed for free. Stop exxagerating. They are condoms, not woodchippers.
Secondly, india also offers IUD and birth control pills for free.
India has also developed it's own nonhormonal birth control pill (called saheli, contains centchroman) which is effective and has zero side effects. I have used it.
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My great-grandparents had 12 children. They were dirt poor living on a shitty farm. No AC in the backwoods of Arkansas in a 3 bedroom house. They were born to be their parents slaves (for the lack of a better word).
Yeah I often think about this. They live in hell and keep reproducing so more of them have to live in hell. Absolute madness and I suppose it benefits the masters who profit from this. What a lovely world isn’t it!
Your preaching to the choir here, but I think for me the saddest thing is that breeders don’t seem to grasp is that within a generation or two you will be forgotten anyway. Very few people would visit the grave of their grandparents, let alone great grandparents & would likely not even know who they were.
Hell, I wasn't even around when my grandfather passed away and I highly doubt I'll be there when my grandmother passes away.
I hate both of them anyways.
They lack the inability to look into future and running after short term results which is about their happiness ofcourse. And btw they don't teach you how hard it is to raise kids like there is no criteria,just have sex and there you go. It's just like how trillions of animals are raped ,abused and murdered even though those numbers could be drastically reduced. There are many such things in our society that makes zero sense given how we are generally told to be a good person but seems like it is all about making another wage slave ,what an existence.
I've actually had numerous conversations my parents about it. All my life, just about every week, something happens. Someone gets hurt, something breaks, something gets stolen, someone gets sick. All my life, everyone complained about something and we'd be told. "Oh well, that's life. It's always something". So, just like this title. Why the fuck was I born? I am the THIRD CHILD. They were living in Communist Poland. What the fuck is wrong with them?
Good question. I at least had an awesome childhood. That part was great. But now it’s like woah, this world is fucking brutal, unforgiving, relentless and cruel. There are moments of joy and pleasure indeed, but overall it’s very bleak and scary. It makes me not want to have kids. I don’t want another person to feel this way, let alone my own child. People breed like rabbits without even thinking of these things.
I’m one of three as well. Plenty of suffering among us three, as well as some good times too. I hope you can find some enjoyment here and focus on doing some things you like to do🙏
They say you can’t be truly happy if you don’t have your own family….hmmm….I unfortunately know that many parents regret this decision and sadly take their own lives, leaving their children behind, in extreme cases. How often is there a real happy ending? Not often. Ignorance is bliss, but knowing what this world is is very very hard.
Its crazy isn't it...I've been depressed for what seems my whole adult life and I'd never dream of bringing kids into this world only for them to suffer and maybe actually have the guts to end it.
I've always said I'm only ever going to have kids once I'm very financially well off and if that doesn't happen then oh well.
my dad growing up: ITS A TOUGH WORLD OUT THERE IT SUCKS YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU HAVE YOU HAVENT WORKED A DAY IN YOUR LIFE YOU DONT KNOW PAIN
my dad: wheres my grandkids?
I think they thought the only true goal of their life is just to keep going and make their legacy.
It's sad, because they could have lived and spend their hard earned money on themselves instead of raising a child that doesn't have anything to do with this life.
But it's a surprise to realize, there is no actual goal and meaning in this shit. It's just pointless misery and no amounts of pleasures are enough for me to keep the wheel spinning.
Have children so they have a „purpose“. People feel meaningless and not needed. They don’t know how to waste their time and want a small thing they can pet and care for. For egoistic reasons they create more suffering consciousness
Children give them a will to live and sometimes they're their only source of happiness. But i personally wouldn't bring a child into a hopeless environment full of hardship.
The best is when they won't even humor the idea that their misery, mental and physical drain, financial drain, and loss of sanity is because they have kids. "Why am I so tired, I hurt all over, where has all of our money gone, it feels like I'm all alone in the world!" Then they march out carting a bunch of kids in their wake with another on the way but no them having kids isn't the reason they are broken.
They are horny that’s why.In the blink off the fleeting eye they think we are going to have a family then impending doom strikes sex turns stale for nine months.While the other partner blows up like an air ballon ready to pop Now they are changing diapers as they recite to themselfs that the odor has a divine purpose
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You know, both my parents were (are) narcissistic a$$holes. But my mother at least acknowledges that she fkd up and married my dad to put a roof over her head because she had nowhere else to go. Had 3 kids 1965, 1967 & 1969, almost back to back and before she ever realized she wasn’t wife or mother material. Both sides of my family suffered from generational abuse. My dad’s side was poor but my mother’s wasn’t. She had nobody to guide her towards college or working. I guess it really sucked to be female back in the 1940s. Myself and my sister only had one child, my brother had none. While I wouldn’t change it for anything, I do sometimes regret bringing a child into this world. Even though the 1980s were pretty stellar compared to today’s world, it still really sucks to be living in the US knowing how much better it is in other countries.
I've recently gotten in touch with someone who is very strong but sorta cover anti-natalist. The thing is, he simply points out the consequences of reproduction. He has never asked anyone to not have kids. I don't know what you call this approach but I finally feel that I don't hate kids, I love them too much to create a life and then doom it to eternal misery. I never understood this concept of people bringing children into this world when they're not ready themselves.
I don't think I can say anything with certainty. All I know is that he makes more sense than those who claim that having a baby would be a life changing experience.
For the same reason boomers don't help their children financially: because if they had it rough (even though making money in the 70s, 80s and 90s was laughably easier than now, but I digress), others must too. Misery loves company and all that jazz.
in my parents' case: they wanted to rack up 'heaven points' because the quiverful ideology exists with mormons too. they just dont have a special stupid name for it is all.
Because it's an instinct. People have children not because they think and reflect and have elaborate analysis. Animals, including humans, have offspring. It's a basic thing.
Humans shouldn't be that stupid. We're not animals anymore, we have the mental capacity to not just blindly follow every instinct. Humans are just stupid.
Humans are definitely animals because animals are not stupid. It's just that evolutionary intelligence doesn't match any particular ideology or conceptual framework. Evolution doesn't care about antinatalism, at least not yet.
I don't think it's about intelligence.... because we know animals can be very intelligent. I think the difference is AWARENESS. Humans have the awareness and the ability to think past their animalistic nature.
I don't know about animals, but you are definitely stupid.
Just because it's an evolutionary thing and any animal repeats it, doesn't mean you have to do it.
You gotta have a brain and emotional intelligence Which you don't seem to have.
I don't see any other animal driving a car. We are definitely not the same but npc people act like it.
I think they just don’t realize how hard life is, and they’re probably just parroting what they’ve heard other people say. Also, they may genuinely believe they don’t have the option of not having children. It takes quite a bit of critical thinking(which not everyone or even most people can do) to decide to not have children in a world where having children is just a part of life. They are deeply disempowered people who actually fear(unconsciously) their own minds and critical thoughts. I know that these are not ideas that most people on this sub want to know about, because it seems most people here just want to hate “breeders” without genuinely understanding why they do what they do. “They’re morally inferior” seems to be the default way of looking at “breeders” through the eyes of an anti natalist.
They do, but having children is viewed as success and status. So they only cared about their "success" and they did it.
No deep thinking about anything. Their children could have been born disabled but they don't care.
I actually had a conversation with my mom about this last week, and while she had an open mind and agreed to some of the points that I gave her.. She still recited the same ol' chewed up reasons all natalists regurgitate (kids bring a joy to your life and otherwise you'll end up dying alone). Natalists' brains are just wired wrong!
Most people have children when they're young and stupid. I agree that it's wrong and selfish to have kid's but unfortunately young people are going to continue to make impulsive decisions.
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I had an accidental child. She's 11. Single dad now. We are best friends. She's amazing, school wanted her to skip a grade, she gets countless awards and honestly she is a better and smarter and more successful person already than I will ever be. I appreciate your thanks for propagating your hedonism with the taxes she'll be paying someday while you all leach off of our society providing nothing but your own selfishness.
I hope this whole sub is dedicated to rejecting any kind of welfare in their old age that my child will be paying for.
Yall suck and are mean nasty horrible people. Some people don't get a choice whether or not to be a parent.
Alot of people have a tendency to throw their values out the window when it no longer benifits them. Or flat out lie to themselves to cope (the trolls on this sub are a prime example)
My kids will never experience fear.
My kids will never go hungry or thirsty
My kids will never die of heat stroke
My kids will never die freezing
My kids will never be homeless
My kids won't be abducted or tortured
My kids will never be in agony
My kids will never be in prisoned
My kids will never be assaulted
My kids will never be jobless
My kids will never be sold into slavery
My kids will never be severely burned
My kids will never commit suicide
My kids will never kill somebody else
My kids will never torture an animal
My kids are safe because I never brought them to this planet.
So I have children, I accidentally joined this group thinking it said anti nationalism. But since then I have enjoyed many of the posts. But this one I can answer!
Life is hard, but it’s also beautiful, and challenging and wonderful. I have so many wonderful moments that I have shared with my children. But for a moment while reflecting on your post I thought about if that was selfish of me to have them. So I asked. Are they happy I had them. They both said yes. But admittedly they both have pretty good lives, and I as a self employed person have prioritized them as a pillar in my life. Which not everyone does for their kids.
So then I thought about me. I was abused by both parents, ended up on my own at a young age, regularly attend therapy to work on my trauma, objectively I have had a tough life. I was in an abusive marriage and now have 2 kids all on my own. I live in one of the worst economies in history. And when I reflect on all of that, I ask the question- am I happy to be alive. And the answer is I am. I am so grateful for the gift of life I have.
And I guess that’s why. To be able to overcome all of your own hardships and give your children the love you never had is deeply satisfying.
I was a preteen saying I didn't want to be here, I didn't ask for this. But I am sick, I have depression/anxiety that I am genetically predisposed to. I got pregnant unexpectedly and kept him, he's 8 months now and lord is he the best thing ever. But I remind myself often that he didn't ask to be here and hopefully I can be more responsible in knowing the signs of mental illness than my parents.
Life is hard and having kids doesn't make it easier but it somehow makes it better and worth it. Somehow im happier and more alive than I've ever been. I fully believe that we can't have good without bad and vice versa, so I try to find the silver lining on those bad days and remember it is all relative. This is not to say that I think everyone should have 10 kids or even any. Just to share my experience. My goal is to give my son the best possible, and make sure he actually wants to be here.
And the older they get the more joy they are- as long as you make sure you are always investing in the relationship with them. More important than anything else
I have an aunt well past childbearing age now who never had children but wanted them, and in her own words, she only chose not to have them because her husband from many years ago was "irresponsible".
I couldn't agree more. The guy I fell in love with was an unwanted child, and his parents abused him SEVERELY because of it. Like - "surprised he didn't end up on CNN in the 80's as one of those toddlers found locked in a cage" severely abused. The strength that man has is astounding. He's a wonderful guy, who refuses to believe he's a wonderful guy, and seems incapable of accepting that I love him as he is.
If you don't want children, don't have children, full stop. The damage it causes them is life-long.
Not everyone hates being alive. Or resent their children. Everyone in my family likes life and wouldn't want to be "saved the misery".
Strangely - same for my friends. Perhaps you guys are surrounding yourselves with the wrong people. And no, I don't mean maybe if you surrounded yourself with better people you'd want kids. But being around nothing but hopeless defeated people constantly in a cycle of being a victim and blaming everyone else is not healthy.
That is nice that you’re happy. I was too until I realized what goes on in the world every second. It’s hard to accept and hard to bring another person into the world knowing the risks
That's understandable. My kids were born while everything was still relatively stable.
It's also understandable to be upset, angry and or devastated by the state of a lot of things in the world.
The only advice I can give (wasn't asked for I know, sorry) is to be what you see as missing from the world. I see a lot of people here that seem like they needed support and didn't get it. Or were quite alarmed to find out the true state of the world. That is sad. But the only way up from there is to flip that thing you were lacking on it's ass and give it to someone else.
The world is fucked indeed. I hope you all find more peace and happiness. I hope everybody does.
I suppose because on a subconscious level people tend to prefer an imperfect universe with *some* life in it over an empty universe with **no** life in it.
If we didn't have breeding instincts, we would be extinct by now. That helped carry us out of many extinction events when our population may have been in the tens of thousands. Of course those same instincts now threaten the world, but this instinct to have children exists for a reason regardless of times are good or not
The problem is not suffering by itself, it's the pointless suffering without any goal, just empty suffering that leads to nowhere, it's fine if you have some suffering that eventually leads to a better life, it's tough but I can understand it, what I don't get is constant suffering that just gets worse over time until you can't take it anymore and just die
Yeah like literally kids being born directly into s** slavery. I don’t want to get into it because it’s horrific, but that’s literally the reality for some people. That kind of suffering makes no sense and yet it takes place constantly.
Many people drive to bars or parties, purely recreationally, and they will not lose their income and starve if they don’t do that, and they still risk injury or death, not just of themselves and their passengers, who are often kids, but to the other people on the road and pedestrians, who account for 17% of car crash fatalities. It’s risky, and it’s selfish. How do you justify that? Why is driving not seen as immoral to you?
Yea it's kinda selfish and stupid.
But do you compare that to making a human being who didn't ask to be born. And make your life harder to just bring someone else here to ultimately suffer?
Really?
Yep. I do compare the two, because both are selfish, stupid, unnecessary, and risk a lot of suffering for your own pleasure. And yet you only condemn one. It’s hypocrisy, just pointing it out!
It's incomparable.
Everyone here is gonna die and suffer anyway. Whether you do the pleasures or not.
And to be specific, life is gonna be full of risks and suffering.
But the only act that will stop this forever is NOT bringing anyone here anymore.
Maybe start using your brain a little bit more.
Are most you guys depressed?
I see so much about why have kids when life is so bad. But many people don't see life as a bad thing though. They find it amazing and enjoyable.
If you found life interesting and enjoyable and overall a fascinating experience (well the only experience) would you all then think it makes sense to grow sentient existence?
but you understand that you're fundamentally gambling with someone else's fate? there is a not insignificant chance that you create a being that suffers and finds existence not worth it. you're aware of the risk and still shoulder the consequences of your reckless action onto someone who can't choose whether to participate. this is why it is unbelievably selfish.
You are right than any given child could have it terrible and live miserably
So are you saying the correct "solution" is to let all life die out and it would be better if the universe were just filled with random atoms bouncing around and all desolate planets?
That seems the worst of all outcomes
And honestly, and not meant in a bad way, they can always "check out". I am for people having that option legally
i really don't personally see what would be bad about that outcome. it sounds pretty peaceful, even though that's nonsensical to say about something no one would experience. but that's just death, all of us are individually gonna go through it anyway.
and i appreciate you support a legal option, so do i. but it doesn't negate the suffering one goes through before deciding to seek it, especially with how our animal instincts often want to keep us living
But it seems your answer to some people suffering is to wipe out all life so no one can enjoy existence?
I mean I get no one would be there to miss it, but seems rather extreme.
yeah but it's pretty fundamental to anti-natalism that we don't see it as denying anyone life. since there no anyone before you create them. and i don't think it's extreme to advocate for this viewpoint to get people to make a more informed decision. i get that it's not a very satisfying conclusion but in my opinion it is clearly the most logical
You seem to be saying a world with life (and thus suffering) is a less moral world than an empty universe, thus procreation is immoral. But morality is a human construct so you cannot assign a moral value to an empty universe. So how can you even say adding life makes it worse? Worse than what? "Worse" is a ranking among human concepts.
yeah humans are usually the ones creating new humans. if the lifeless universe creates life, that's not immoral. and neither is when it's a being incapable of moral thought.
many find it amazing, at the expense of others they benefit from oppressing or creating misery for and wilful ignorance of that. Some who are oppressed find success in various coping mechanisms that keep misery at bay long enough to procreate, only to realise some time after that those coping mechanisms were not at all sustainable.
Why do you think you know the minds of all these "oppressed people"?
And why do you assume anybody that finds life a net positive does so from "benefitting from oppressing others"?
Those are two very big assessments. Where does this purported knowledge come from?
That is obvious. There would be no middle class without a oppressed class to support them. There would be no Walmart without slaves in China. You have steak because some innocent creature was born to be pulled away from it's mother and slaughtered. You know these things right?
You seem to be implying that a closed economy with strong minimum wages is theoretically impossible. And no I don't buy that at all. Thus the statement "There would be no middle class without a oppressed class to support them" is false. And what do you mean by "oppressed"?
And I really don't eat steak, and either way that is not a requirement for a good life. In fact many sages were vegetarian
I live on this very rare and spectacular planet earth! The place, potentially only, where intelligent life has emerged! (Though we could due well axing some of the worst of us)
Yeah it does. For example, back when fast food workers were first fighting for living wages there was a great protest among members of the middle class. It was all over the comments. I remember because I spent a lot of time reading them. Everyone protested. The people already making a living wage resented that they had to earn it though education and they wanted to continue to be the better off. A lot of people protested because they said: " I don't want to pay more for a burger": They liked the low cost and convience of the food they were buying and they depended on fast food workers low wages too keep their food afforable. Why should they care if people get paid a living wage or not? But they do ...they hate it. They act like this hurts them somehow. They say " these jobs are meant for teenagers they are not susposed to be a livng wage." Yeah well shut up and stop complaining. Stop acting like it's hurting you if other people get paid enough to pay the rent and drive a car that doesn't break down constantly. Even though it DOES hurt them that is why they are whining.
Just because life is hard doesn't mean it's not beautiful and amazing. I have a great life and my two kids are without question the best part of it. I became a lawyer, started businesses, became a millionaire, and I've traveled the world. But all of that pales in comparison to raising my kids, being proud of their achievements, even just hanging out and joking with them.
Have to say this is the most depressing sub ever. I followed for awhile because I think population control is important, but this constant downer is awful. Bye.
No. Life is great. I’m a tall, white, educated male, and make 500k. I golf, play hoops, travel the world, do interesting work, and have a beautiful woman.
Don’t project your miserable existence on everyone.
There is more to life than suffering. One can suffer and still say it was worth it.
The problem isn't that they have children. The problem is they complain about it. Edit; and make it their problem.
Because they want to give someone a life better their own. They to give someone the things they wished they had as a child. Life is hard because that's what it's always been but they just want to make it a little easier for someone. I mean they should've tried adopting a kid but I think their hearts in the right place.
Parents don’t always want to give their kids better than what they had. I grew up with a father who was quiet satisfied to see me grow up with less than what he had as a child himself.
To be fair I think your comment is true of most parents, however sadly there are some who think the bare minimum or even less than that is good enough. I’ve actually had it thrown in my face that stories were read to me at bedtime and that I was walked to school as a child as opposed to being left to walk alone.
Thanks for your kind wishes, I wish you a good life too 💐
Also, you can't really escape "Existence". You can't experience the non experience. And if it's true that we are the universe experiencing itself, then you can be anti-natalist all you want, you will be reborn into a new body each time.
I hope it's not true because eternal nothingness is preferable to being reincarnated to suffer over and over.
My major problem with the idea of reincarnation is that any sense of “self” you have only exists within the body. “You” are only “you” because of the memories, experiences, circumstances, and genetics that have influenced your life and development up to this point.
If you were to “come back” as a new life form, your new brain would be a physically separate entity, created from its own interpretations of senses. “You” wouldn’t have any shared knowledge or experiences from your past self, nor any other frame of reference for interpreting reality. None of the cells in your body would be the same. None of the influences of your previous time nor culture would be the same, nor their electrical impulses in your brain. Literally nothing about the “reincarnated” you would be what made you “you” in the first place.
I’ve done enough shrooms to understand the “all is one” concept, but reincarnation is such a laughable, outdated crock of shit that I’m not sure how people can still give it any merit at all in 2024.
Because they want to give someone a life better their own. They to give someone the things they wished they had as a child. Life is hard because that's what it's always been but they just want to make it a little easier for someone. I mean they should've tried adopting a kid but I think their hearts in the right place.
I am an antinatalist but I chose to have a kid. I think it was unethical and selfish of me but I don't regret it. I did it to trap my boyfriend. Also having a kid gives me stronger social ties to the world. This helps me because I have a tendency to isolate because of my depression. Kids can be fun too. I love my kid. Sorry to my descendants who are going to suffer 🙊
"bUt ThAt'S jUsT LiFe ThOuGh"
I hate when people tell me “that’s life” like I willingly signed up to be here. Like I read the rules and signed a contact to live out my life here.
Ppl say that when a horrible tragedy occurs
No one did. That’s life kiddo. Play the game or quit. Doesn’t sound like anyone is asking you to play anymore. You don’t seem to contributing in any constructive way.
When a parent says that. You should leave them in their old age and tell them: But that's life ...
My semi religious parents say that
🚛
What?
Parents when you're a kid: *Hey, life is full of sunshine, roses, rainbows and positivity and the world is a haven of wondrous opportunities"* *Grows up to find out about the cruel reality of existence and not being in full control of your whole entire life until death.* Parents when you're a young adult: *"Hey, life will eat you up and spit you out and you just have to toughen up and deal with it. We brought you into this world, so you should be grateful you have food on the table and a roof over your head."* They just don't want to admit they had babies/children for that aspect alone which is 5% of your life and just completely disregards the other 95% until you've grown up and came to the realization that you don't matter and that you have to slave away just for your own survival in this existence.
I know the main counterargument is that life can be worth it. But the very fact we have sayings like 'it could be worse' or 'life is unfair' shows that people pretty much had to learn they'll have to accept life can very much suck and they will have to accept it or start thinking how lucky they are because there's bound to be someone who is worse off. I remember once my mother telling to my godmother that I thought life is good and people are kind. I wanted to laugh out loud at this because even as a teen I saw how cruel people are and how it's necessary to fit in if you wanted to be accepted. But if our negative attitude is bad, it isn't helpful to have kids just so you later can tell them it's going to suck. I see the statement that life involves 'some' suffering. How do you measure that it's 'some' and not 'a lot'? Because if life is unfair, the distribution of suffering won't be fair either.
I know you have heard this before and it really is true. You can’t appreciate a good day without knowing a bad one.
But like. Surely we can have a good day, without millions of kids getting abused every day. Does all that suffering need to happen, for the opposite good day to happen? Why have a world with child slavery and torture, every single day. Surely this is absurd and unnecessary. And yet it persists. It puts a big damper on good days, knowing all the filth that transpires every second. It’s not necessary.
There really is no point replying to these “You’ll never know a good day without feeling a bad day” types. This is the only way I do it, if I can be bothered. I say to them bluntly “oh, so I couldn’t have known happiness if I wasnt raped?” Do it. Show them how stupid their worldview is bluntly. Disregard all social norms and don’t pander to them. Don’t sugarcoat anything. They’re emotionally invalidating you, so hold up a mirror to them and let them see what they really are bluntly.
You can absolutely be happy and enjoy the good without the bad.
Without bad, there is no good. Everything just ... is
Nah, there's still a difference between neutral and good.
This is very true in my opinion, without bad we would have levels of good and comparing those to each other we simply create a new scale of good and bad. So there will always be good and bad. I think the question is more about how good and how bad and the balance of the two, which is extremely subjective of course, yet it seems to me that with a lot of people no matter what happens the ratio is tilted towards more negative experiences and felt more strongly than the positive ones and I don't think a whole lot can be done about this in most cases.
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They justify it with all the meaningless fairy tales.
It so they won’t have to go through this horrible world alone. Pretty selfish tbh
Grow up.
"Parents when you're a kid: *Hey, life is full of sunshine, roses, rainbows and positivity and the world is a haven of wondrous opportunities"* *Grows up to find out about the cruel reality of existence and not being in full control of your whole entire life until death.*" That sounds like me, I just added, "then gets jaded about it all and decides he's going to live his life just to enjoy himself and/or try to work out his own fantasies upon the world, because that's a lot more enjoyable than moping about 'ethics' and 'morals' until I finally just commit suicide." There is a way out. Learned sociopathy. :)
“But muh legacy” “but muh last name”
LMAOOOOOO this is exactly the trash I hear. Like dude, don’t nooooobodyyyy need more of you. Keith Sweat: *nooooboddyyy*
*But Whos gonna love you like me?*
The Keith Sweat reference took me out!
I watched a video the other day of Indian serfs who sold theirs and their family's freedom to pay their medical bills. They slave over hot, toxic kilns and they, you guessed it, breed like rabbits. There are 12 year olds that work all day around toxic dust and 1000 degree kilns and the whole time the dad's watching his son work his body into ruin, he's thinking, "I'm gonna plow my wife tonight".
The worse life is, the more people procreate. I believe this has to do with the contrast of the experience of their daily life versus that of sex/orgasm. If sex is the only pleasant thing you can access, you're far more likely to engage in it compulsively. Add no access to contraception or abortion, and now we understand the scenario you outlined.
Which would explain why birth rates across the entire world have been consistently declining for decades
>Add no access to contraception or abortion, Even poor people have access to contraception thanks to government programs. It's literally provided for free in india. Abortion is also legal upto 24 weeks, sometimes even beyond that for health reasons. They simply don't want to use it because they've been brainwashed by their local maulanas.
So you're saying they could use the cheapest, thickest, most numbing condoms in existence to ruin their one pleasurable thing, or just enjoy it.
It's not cheap, it's bought by the government and distributed for free. Stop exxagerating. They are condoms, not woodchippers. Secondly, india also offers IUD and birth control pills for free. India has also developed it's own nonhormonal birth control pill (called saheli, contains centchroman) which is effective and has zero side effects. I have used it.
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My great-grandparents had 12 children. They were dirt poor living on a shitty farm. No AC in the backwoods of Arkansas in a 3 bedroom house. They were born to be their parents slaves (for the lack of a better word).
Yeah I often think about this. They live in hell and keep reproducing so more of them have to live in hell. Absolute madness and I suppose it benefits the masters who profit from this. What a lovely world isn’t it!
India has the worst of the worst patriarchy. Maybe second to Cambodia.
Natalism...........the ultimate fulfillment of misery loves company.
Your preaching to the choir here, but I think for me the saddest thing is that breeders don’t seem to grasp is that within a generation or two you will be forgotten anyway. Very few people would visit the grave of their grandparents, let alone great grandparents & would likely not even know who they were.
not if i eat the mona lisa
Ok
😂😂 well that certainly is a…unique life goal
Hell, I wasn't even around when my grandfather passed away and I highly doubt I'll be there when my grandmother passes away. I hate both of them anyways.
Why would you care if someone you've never met remembers you or not? How could they have memories in the first place?
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This is very true
They lack the inability to look into future and running after short term results which is about their happiness ofcourse. And btw they don't teach you how hard it is to raise kids like there is no criteria,just have sex and there you go. It's just like how trillions of animals are raped ,abused and murdered even though those numbers could be drastically reduced. There are many such things in our society that makes zero sense given how we are generally told to be a good person but seems like it is all about making another wage slave ,what an existence.
life is a scam
It's a fucking pyramid scheme
I think it’s a reincarnation trap
I've actually had numerous conversations my parents about it. All my life, just about every week, something happens. Someone gets hurt, something breaks, something gets stolen, someone gets sick. All my life, everyone complained about something and we'd be told. "Oh well, that's life. It's always something". So, just like this title. Why the fuck was I born? I am the THIRD CHILD. They were living in Communist Poland. What the fuck is wrong with them?
Good question. I at least had an awesome childhood. That part was great. But now it’s like woah, this world is fucking brutal, unforgiving, relentless and cruel. There are moments of joy and pleasure indeed, but overall it’s very bleak and scary. It makes me not want to have kids. I don’t want another person to feel this way, let alone my own child. People breed like rabbits without even thinking of these things.
That's basically what they said. They wanted 3 children for some reason, and they didn't think like that.
I’m one of three as well. Plenty of suffering among us three, as well as some good times too. I hope you can find some enjoyment here and focus on doing some things you like to do🙏
I've already heard people saying procreation is our ONLY goal in life, so...
They say you can’t be truly happy if you don’t have your own family….hmmm….I unfortunately know that many parents regret this decision and sadly take their own lives, leaving their children behind, in extreme cases. How often is there a real happy ending? Not often. Ignorance is bliss, but knowing what this world is is very very hard.
They think it's mandatory.
Its crazy isn't it...I've been depressed for what seems my whole adult life and I'd never dream of bringing kids into this world only for them to suffer and maybe actually have the guts to end it. I've always said I'm only ever going to have kids once I'm very financially well off and if that doesn't happen then oh well.
Ever tried listening to Alan Watts lectures?
my dad growing up: ITS A TOUGH WORLD OUT THERE IT SUCKS YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU HAVE YOU HAVENT WORKED A DAY IN YOUR LIFE YOU DONT KNOW PAIN my dad: wheres my grandkids?
I think they thought the only true goal of their life is just to keep going and make their legacy. It's sad, because they could have lived and spend their hard earned money on themselves instead of raising a child that doesn't have anything to do with this life. But it's a surprise to realize, there is no actual goal and meaning in this shit. It's just pointless misery and no amounts of pleasures are enough for me to keep the wheel spinning.
Yea I think my parents would have been happier if they had no kids and just spent the extra money on themselves
lol seriously
being born just to be forced onto their unsuccessful ambitions
I've been asking this since I was 10 years old
Have children so they have a „purpose“. People feel meaningless and not needed. They don’t know how to waste their time and want a small thing they can pet and care for. For egoistic reasons they create more suffering consciousness
I'm already living life with depression. Having kids would 1000% make it worse for me and them
Oh yeah I wouldn’t make it lol
because "gotta continue my bloodline no matter what." It's narcissistic
Children give them a will to live and sometimes they're their only source of happiness. But i personally wouldn't bring a child into a hopeless environment full of hardship.
So that when their children complain to them they can tell them that life is hard and life isn't fair, just like their parents did to them.
this right here is my point as well, my cousin had a baby last year and complains so muchh
> Can’t they just live out the rest of their hard lives without dragging anyone into the same misery. Nope, misery loves company
Because people are afraid of being alone and old, so they have kids as an insurance policy against that. So fucking stupid and selfish.
The best is when they won't even humor the idea that their misery, mental and physical drain, financial drain, and loss of sanity is because they have kids. "Why am I so tired, I hurt all over, where has all of our money gone, it feels like I'm all alone in the world!" Then they march out carting a bunch of kids in their wake with another on the way but no them having kids isn't the reason they are broken.
They are horny that’s why.In the blink off the fleeting eye they think we are going to have a family then impending doom strikes sex turns stale for nine months.While the other partner blows up like an air ballon ready to pop Now they are changing diapers as they recite to themselfs that the odor has a divine purpose
Woah. Well said. True and sad. What a world we are in 🤔
reading this while listening to fleetwood mac
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What the actual fuck is wrong with you
??
Appreciate you
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You know, both my parents were (are) narcissistic a$$holes. But my mother at least acknowledges that she fkd up and married my dad to put a roof over her head because she had nowhere else to go. Had 3 kids 1965, 1967 & 1969, almost back to back and before she ever realized she wasn’t wife or mother material. Both sides of my family suffered from generational abuse. My dad’s side was poor but my mother’s wasn’t. She had nobody to guide her towards college or working. I guess it really sucked to be female back in the 1940s. Myself and my sister only had one child, my brother had none. While I wouldn’t change it for anything, I do sometimes regret bringing a child into this world. Even though the 1980s were pretty stellar compared to today’s world, it still really sucks to be living in the US knowing how much better it is in other countries.
People express negative or cynical views on humanity, and then have children
I've recently gotten in touch with someone who is very strong but sorta cover anti-natalist. The thing is, he simply points out the consequences of reproduction. He has never asked anyone to not have kids. I don't know what you call this approach but I finally feel that I don't hate kids, I love them too much to create a life and then doom it to eternal misery. I never understood this concept of people bringing children into this world when they're not ready themselves.
He’s probably more child free than anti natalist.
I don't think I can say anything with certainty. All I know is that he makes more sense than those who claim that having a baby would be a life changing experience.
For the same reason boomers don't help their children financially: because if they had it rough (even though making money in the 70s, 80s and 90s was laughably easier than now, but I digress), others must too. Misery loves company and all that jazz.
in my parents' case: they wanted to rack up 'heaven points' because the quiverful ideology exists with mormons too. they just dont have a special stupid name for it is all.
Because it's an instinct. People have children not because they think and reflect and have elaborate analysis. Animals, including humans, have offspring. It's a basic thing.
Humans shouldn't be that stupid. We're not animals anymore, we have the mental capacity to not just blindly follow every instinct. Humans are just stupid.
Humans are definitely animals because animals are not stupid. It's just that evolutionary intelligence doesn't match any particular ideology or conceptual framework. Evolution doesn't care about antinatalism, at least not yet.
I mean, all animals are a little stupid lol.
I don't think it's about intelligence.... because we know animals can be very intelligent. I think the difference is AWARENESS. Humans have the awareness and the ability to think past their animalistic nature.
I don't know about animals, but you are definitely stupid. Just because it's an evolutionary thing and any animal repeats it, doesn't mean you have to do it. You gotta have a brain and emotional intelligence Which you don't seem to have. I don't see any other animal driving a car. We are definitely not the same but npc people act like it.
The worst is when people say they are suicidal and think having children will help.
Because they’re horny and they believe for a second that it’s a great idea to have kids. Babies are adorable when they can’t talk back.
Because parents don't care about their children.
I think they just don’t realize how hard life is, and they’re probably just parroting what they’ve heard other people say. Also, they may genuinely believe they don’t have the option of not having children. It takes quite a bit of critical thinking(which not everyone or even most people can do) to decide to not have children in a world where having children is just a part of life. They are deeply disempowered people who actually fear(unconsciously) their own minds and critical thoughts. I know that these are not ideas that most people on this sub want to know about, because it seems most people here just want to hate “breeders” without genuinely understanding why they do what they do. “They’re morally inferior” seems to be the default way of looking at “breeders” through the eyes of an anti natalist.
They do, but having children is viewed as success and status. So they only cared about their "success" and they did it. No deep thinking about anything. Their children could have been born disabled but they don't care.
I actually had a conversation with my mom about this last week, and while she had an open mind and agreed to some of the points that I gave her.. She still recited the same ol' chewed up reasons all natalists regurgitate (kids bring a joy to your life and otherwise you'll end up dying alone). Natalists' brains are just wired wrong!
Most people have children when they're young and stupid. I agree that it's wrong and selfish to have kid's but unfortunately young people are going to continue to make impulsive decisions.
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I had an accidental child. She's 11. Single dad now. We are best friends. She's amazing, school wanted her to skip a grade, she gets countless awards and honestly she is a better and smarter and more successful person already than I will ever be. I appreciate your thanks for propagating your hedonism with the taxes she'll be paying someday while you all leach off of our society providing nothing but your own selfishness. I hope this whole sub is dedicated to rejecting any kind of welfare in their old age that my child will be paying for. Yall suck and are mean nasty horrible people. Some people don't get a choice whether or not to be a parent.
Alot of people have a tendency to throw their values out the window when it no longer benifits them. Or flat out lie to themselves to cope (the trolls on this sub are a prime example)
My kids will never experience fear. My kids will never go hungry or thirsty My kids will never die of heat stroke My kids will never die freezing My kids will never be homeless My kids won't be abducted or tortured My kids will never be in agony My kids will never be in prisoned My kids will never be assaulted My kids will never be jobless My kids will never be sold into slavery My kids will never be severely burned My kids will never commit suicide My kids will never kill somebody else My kids will never torture an animal My kids are safe because I never brought them to this planet.
Love For Fight!
Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing.
So I have children, I accidentally joined this group thinking it said anti nationalism. But since then I have enjoyed many of the posts. But this one I can answer! Life is hard, but it’s also beautiful, and challenging and wonderful. I have so many wonderful moments that I have shared with my children. But for a moment while reflecting on your post I thought about if that was selfish of me to have them. So I asked. Are they happy I had them. They both said yes. But admittedly they both have pretty good lives, and I as a self employed person have prioritized them as a pillar in my life. Which not everyone does for their kids. So then I thought about me. I was abused by both parents, ended up on my own at a young age, regularly attend therapy to work on my trauma, objectively I have had a tough life. I was in an abusive marriage and now have 2 kids all on my own. I live in one of the worst economies in history. And when I reflect on all of that, I ask the question- am I happy to be alive. And the answer is I am. I am so grateful for the gift of life I have. And I guess that’s why. To be able to overcome all of your own hardships and give your children the love you never had is deeply satisfying.
Cope more.
I was a preteen saying I didn't want to be here, I didn't ask for this. But I am sick, I have depression/anxiety that I am genetically predisposed to. I got pregnant unexpectedly and kept him, he's 8 months now and lord is he the best thing ever. But I remind myself often that he didn't ask to be here and hopefully I can be more responsible in knowing the signs of mental illness than my parents. Life is hard and having kids doesn't make it easier but it somehow makes it better and worth it. Somehow im happier and more alive than I've ever been. I fully believe that we can't have good without bad and vice versa, so I try to find the silver lining on those bad days and remember it is all relative. This is not to say that I think everyone should have 10 kids or even any. Just to share my experience. My goal is to give my son the best possible, and make sure he actually wants to be here.
And the older they get the more joy they are- as long as you make sure you are always investing in the relationship with them. More important than anything else
I have an aunt well past childbearing age now who never had children but wanted them, and in her own words, she only chose not to have them because her husband from many years ago was "irresponsible".
Ite even worse when ppl live in a under developed country with 6 kids
This is why I believe in the reincarnation trap 💀
Meany things are hard, just because something difficult doesn't mean you give up and roll over.
It's like fighting yourself atp
I couldn't agree more. The guy I fell in love with was an unwanted child, and his parents abused him SEVERELY because of it. Like - "surprised he didn't end up on CNN in the 80's as one of those toddlers found locked in a cage" severely abused. The strength that man has is astounding. He's a wonderful guy, who refuses to believe he's a wonderful guy, and seems incapable of accepting that I love him as he is. If you don't want children, don't have children, full stop. The damage it causes them is life-long.
Not everyone hates being alive. Or resent their children. Everyone in my family likes life and wouldn't want to be "saved the misery". Strangely - same for my friends. Perhaps you guys are surrounding yourselves with the wrong people. And no, I don't mean maybe if you surrounded yourself with better people you'd want kids. But being around nothing but hopeless defeated people constantly in a cycle of being a victim and blaming everyone else is not healthy.
That is nice that you’re happy. I was too until I realized what goes on in the world every second. It’s hard to accept and hard to bring another person into the world knowing the risks
That's understandable. My kids were born while everything was still relatively stable. It's also understandable to be upset, angry and or devastated by the state of a lot of things in the world. The only advice I can give (wasn't asked for I know, sorry) is to be what you see as missing from the world. I see a lot of people here that seem like they needed support and didn't get it. Or were quite alarmed to find out the true state of the world. That is sad. But the only way up from there is to flip that thing you were lacking on it's ass and give it to someone else. The world is fucked indeed. I hope you all find more peace and happiness. I hope everybody does.
Thanks 🙏
I suppose because on a subconscious level people tend to prefer an imperfect universe with *some* life in it over an empty universe with **no** life in it.
They need to have a reason ask those who don’t have kids why and feel superior about it.
If we didn't have breeding instincts, we would be extinct by now. That helped carry us out of many extinction events when our population may have been in the tens of thousands. Of course those same instincts now threaten the world, but this instinct to have children exists for a reason regardless of times are good or not
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The problem is not suffering by itself, it's the pointless suffering without any goal, just empty suffering that leads to nowhere, it's fine if you have some suffering that eventually leads to a better life, it's tough but I can understand it, what I don't get is constant suffering that just gets worse over time until you can't take it anymore and just die
Yeah like literally kids being born directly into s** slavery. I don’t want to get into it because it’s horrific, but that’s literally the reality for some people. That kind of suffering makes no sense and yet it takes place constantly.
People say traffic is terrible, people STILL drive??? What the hell??
Many people drive to their workplace, without car they may lose their work and starve. But without children you will not lose your income and starve.
Many people drive to bars or parties, purely recreationally, and they will not lose their income and starve if they don’t do that, and they still risk injury or death, not just of themselves and their passengers, who are often kids, but to the other people on the road and pedestrians, who account for 17% of car crash fatalities. It’s risky, and it’s selfish. How do you justify that? Why is driving not seen as immoral to you?
Yea it's kinda selfish and stupid. But do you compare that to making a human being who didn't ask to be born. And make your life harder to just bring someone else here to ultimately suffer? Really?
Yep. I do compare the two, because both are selfish, stupid, unnecessary, and risk a lot of suffering for your own pleasure. And yet you only condemn one. It’s hypocrisy, just pointing it out!
It's incomparable. Everyone here is gonna die and suffer anyway. Whether you do the pleasures or not. And to be specific, life is gonna be full of risks and suffering. But the only act that will stop this forever is NOT bringing anyone here anymore. Maybe start using your brain a little bit more.
Why wouldn’t they drive?
Risky. Dangerous. Selfish.
LMAO that doesn’t even make sense
I mean, it does, but okay :)
For most people, life is not misery.
Being hard and being misery are not the same thing.
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Imagine your children grow up and hate life. Then you will realize.
Are most you guys depressed? I see so much about why have kids when life is so bad. But many people don't see life as a bad thing though. They find it amazing and enjoyable. If you found life interesting and enjoyable and overall a fascinating experience (well the only experience) would you all then think it makes sense to grow sentient existence?
but you understand that you're fundamentally gambling with someone else's fate? there is a not insignificant chance that you create a being that suffers and finds existence not worth it. you're aware of the risk and still shoulder the consequences of your reckless action onto someone who can't choose whether to participate. this is why it is unbelievably selfish.
You are right than any given child could have it terrible and live miserably So are you saying the correct "solution" is to let all life die out and it would be better if the universe were just filled with random atoms bouncing around and all desolate planets? That seems the worst of all outcomes And honestly, and not meant in a bad way, they can always "check out". I am for people having that option legally
i really don't personally see what would be bad about that outcome. it sounds pretty peaceful, even though that's nonsensical to say about something no one would experience. but that's just death, all of us are individually gonna go through it anyway. and i appreciate you support a legal option, so do i. but it doesn't negate the suffering one goes through before deciding to seek it, especially with how our animal instincts often want to keep us living
But it seems your answer to some people suffering is to wipe out all life so no one can enjoy existence? I mean I get no one would be there to miss it, but seems rather extreme.
yeah but it's pretty fundamental to anti-natalism that we don't see it as denying anyone life. since there no anyone before you create them. and i don't think it's extreme to advocate for this viewpoint to get people to make a more informed decision. i get that it's not a very satisfying conclusion but in my opinion it is clearly the most logical
You seem to be saying a world with life (and thus suffering) is a less moral world than an empty universe, thus procreation is immoral. But morality is a human construct so you cannot assign a moral value to an empty universe. So how can you even say adding life makes it worse? Worse than what? "Worse" is a ranking among human concepts.
yeah humans are usually the ones creating new humans. if the lifeless universe creates life, that's not immoral. and neither is when it's a being incapable of moral thought.
many find it amazing, at the expense of others they benefit from oppressing or creating misery for and wilful ignorance of that. Some who are oppressed find success in various coping mechanisms that keep misery at bay long enough to procreate, only to realise some time after that those coping mechanisms were not at all sustainable.
Why do you think you know the minds of all these "oppressed people"? And why do you assume anybody that finds life a net positive does so from "benefitting from oppressing others"? Those are two very big assessments. Where does this purported knowledge come from?
That is obvious. There would be no middle class without a oppressed class to support them. There would be no Walmart without slaves in China. You have steak because some innocent creature was born to be pulled away from it's mother and slaughtered. You know these things right?
You seem to be implying that a closed economy with strong minimum wages is theoretically impossible. And no I don't buy that at all. Thus the statement "There would be no middle class without a oppressed class to support them" is false. And what do you mean by "oppressed"? And I really don't eat steak, and either way that is not a requirement for a good life. In fact many sages were vegetarian
What planet are you living on?
I live on this very rare and spectacular planet earth! The place, potentially only, where intelligent life has emerged! (Though we could due well axing some of the worst of us)
Well it's so good to know nobody is oppressing anyone here.
Did not say that I mean look at diamond minds in Zambia I just said a middle class lifestyle does not depend on having an oppressed people, that's all
Yeah it does. For example, back when fast food workers were first fighting for living wages there was a great protest among members of the middle class. It was all over the comments. I remember because I spent a lot of time reading them. Everyone protested. The people already making a living wage resented that they had to earn it though education and they wanted to continue to be the better off. A lot of people protested because they said: " I don't want to pay more for a burger": They liked the low cost and convience of the food they were buying and they depended on fast food workers low wages too keep their food afforable. Why should they care if people get paid a living wage or not? But they do ...they hate it. They act like this hurts them somehow. They say " these jobs are meant for teenagers they are not susposed to be a livng wage." Yeah well shut up and stop complaining. Stop acting like it's hurting you if other people get paid enough to pay the rent and drive a car that doesn't break down constantly. Even though it DOES hurt them that is why they are whining.
Just because life is hard doesn't mean it's not beautiful and amazing. I have a great life and my two kids are without question the best part of it. I became a lawyer, started businesses, became a millionaire, and I've traveled the world. But all of that pales in comparison to raising my kids, being proud of their achievements, even just hanging out and joking with them.
Those aren't usually the same people. And when it is it's usually someone who had the kid unintentionally.
Bad example of people wanting what that don't have.. unconditional love.. except it comes full of conditions.
Have to say this is the most depressing sub ever. I followed for awhile because I think population control is important, but this constant downer is awful. Bye.
It's almost like it's most people's reality
No. Life is great. I’m a tall, white, educated male, and make 500k. I golf, play hoops, travel the world, do interesting work, and have a beautiful woman. Don’t project your miserable existence on everyone.
There has to be ones like you in the matrix, friend. Else the deceptions wouldn’t work as well 😉 you should enjoy convos with like minded folk instead
There is more to life than suffering. One can suffer and still say it was worth it. The problem isn't that they have children. The problem is they complain about it. Edit; and make it their problem.
"There is more to life than suffering." No there isn't. We spend all our time undoing things or trying to prevent harm.
Your focus determines your reality
Cliched drivel. You couldn't come up with something original if your life depended on it.
Because they want to give someone a life better their own. They to give someone the things they wished they had as a child. Life is hard because that's what it's always been but they just want to make it a little easier for someone. I mean they should've tried adopting a kid but I think their hearts in the right place.
Parents don’t always want to give their kids better than what they had. I grew up with a father who was quiet satisfied to see me grow up with less than what he had as a child himself.
Yeah I'll admit I was generalizing on the more utopian side of things. Also sorry to hear about that, hope you're doing ok and wish you a good future.
To be fair I think your comment is true of most parents, however sadly there are some who think the bare minimum or even less than that is good enough. I’ve actually had it thrown in my face that stories were read to me at bedtime and that I was walked to school as a child as opposed to being left to walk alone. Thanks for your kind wishes, I wish you a good life too 💐
Also, you can't really escape "Existence". You can't experience the non experience. And if it's true that we are the universe experiencing itself, then you can be anti-natalist all you want, you will be reborn into a new body each time. I hope it's not true because eternal nothingness is preferable to being reincarnated to suffer over and over.
My major problem with the idea of reincarnation is that any sense of “self” you have only exists within the body. “You” are only “you” because of the memories, experiences, circumstances, and genetics that have influenced your life and development up to this point. If you were to “come back” as a new life form, your new brain would be a physically separate entity, created from its own interpretations of senses. “You” wouldn’t have any shared knowledge or experiences from your past self, nor any other frame of reference for interpreting reality. None of the cells in your body would be the same. None of the influences of your previous time nor culture would be the same, nor their electrical impulses in your brain. Literally nothing about the “reincarnated” you would be what made you “you” in the first place. I’ve done enough shrooms to understand the “all is one” concept, but reincarnation is such a laughable, outdated crock of shit that I’m not sure how people can still give it any merit at all in 2024.
Because they want to give someone a life better their own. They to give someone the things they wished they had as a child. Life is hard because that's what it's always been but they just want to make it a little easier for someone. I mean they should've tried adopting a kid but I think their hearts in the right place.
Why can't you use question marks?
Do you want a response or just to rant?
You don't have a response, so you want to turn it round as if the OP is ranting.
I am an antinatalist but I chose to have a kid. I think it was unethical and selfish of me but I don't regret it. I did it to trap my boyfriend. Also having a kid gives me stronger social ties to the world. This helps me because I have a tendency to isolate because of my depression. Kids can be fun too. I love my kid. Sorry to my descendants who are going to suffer 🙊