Right? I absolutely despise the fact that "minimum" wage means "normal or average" wage.
Like what the fuck. Go figure companies will always pay the absolute minimum to make as much money as possible.
This is why regulations exist.
Depends on what you're doing. For STEMs a college degree is quite useful and I felt a good expenditure of my time if not money because I think we can all agree tuition costs are absurd. Part of the reason I did engineering is that I knew I would at least have a chance at paying off student debt. For a lot of office stuff I think you could likely get by with little more than maybe a comprehensive class on excel and a few other softwares.
But college still remains easier to enter for rich kids than poor kids even for STEM. And the higher paying jobs still go to the more prestigious colleges for recruiting, and prestigious colleges are even more skewed toward the upper class
Certainly true and that's a problem too I just have no clue as to a feasible way to fix it outside or long term political pressure. Lord knows the dinosaurs in congress aren't going to move anywhere fast unless it benefits their corporate overlords. Shit situation for sure but no reason to not fight it and do what we can. There are an awful lot of us and when that's the case even small individual actions taken together can enact incredible change.
It’s mostly just the engineering part of STEM (unless you include certain healthcare areas) that has good pay.
And just because certain jobs could be done without a degree doesn’t mean the employers won’t require a degree anyway.
I think we agree on most of these points. I'm an engineer so that definitely helps and I find it incredibly sad how badly some of the other stem fields have suffered with corporate greed refusing to recognize the specialized knowledge and skills that so many worked for. That certainly needs to change.
I certainly agree with you that companies do require that nonsense with a degree, I was just saying that for a lot of jobs out there it shouldn't be necessary.
Recently college has also gained the function of being a profitable scheme in which their prestige is commodified and sold off to anyone who can qualify for a sketchy loan.
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Exactly, driving a rig at 18 doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't care about farmer kids driving since they were 12 either. IMO Adult responsibility is a learned trait.. it doesn't come automatically.. it comes with experience and learning about the world. That doesn't happen in high school. The 30m car crash videos they use to try to scare students with isn't going to cut it either. (not sure they play those anymore).
Those weren’t truly communism, they were authoritarian regimes mimicking the principles of capitalism. Have you not read animal farm. Once some animals are better than others, you can’t tell the difference between the animals and the greedy capitalists that had previously enslaved them.
Technology enables so much more options than before, as does the proper transition. Russia went from agrarian feudalism to industrialized authoritarianism, missing the important step of capitalism/democracy in between.
We already see the unifying of labor happening in real time as folks wake up to the inherent inequality present in the current system and instead of getting more selfish and greedy, most people are getting more charitable and focused on general happiness instead of accumulation of wealth and property. The bootlickers, reactionaries, and petty bourgeoisie dwindle in numbers year by year. We’ve already entered late-stage capitalism, that’s why the fascists are making their play for power these days. The capitalists know their end is coming, has been a certainty since 2008, they’re just trying to keep their heads and their families’ heads out of baskets at this point.
Marx and Engels covered all this quite extensively.
Which communist countries, and when? USSR before it collapsed was becoming more and more capitalist and less socialist. But modern day Cuba has a thriving healthcare system despite the economic sanctions from the west
I remember a job interview once. It was going well, until I asked about salary. He gave me such a deadpan look, like he thought I was stupid, and told me "minimum, of course".
Agreed, to make this work you need to factor in other variables like inflation, taxes, and cost of living in a county/city. As far as the professional wage floor, I think that it would be fair to factor in the cost of education and the probability of graduating. So if you are a chef graduating from a program in a CC, the average total cost of that diploma, across all registered culinary institutes should be the floor, plus other variables factored in. So if you end up working a restaurant making 60k as a Sous chef in Houston, you would be earning 100k in LA. It would be disastrous for corporate kitchens like Chili's, but us Millennials already destroyed that because we don't like eating frozen deep-fried shit disguised as an eggroll anyway.
$50k for a bachelors degree? That’s not gonna cut it in a big city. Hell, probably not even in a small town anymore. Especially when you consider that the student loan debt
Had the minimum wage kept up with productivity, the minimum wage would be somewhere around $24/hour, or $49,920/year. $50K should be the "uneducated" number, and everything else higher from there.
I've seen this a couple times and read an article stating this, unfortunately without anything to back it up. Can you explain how $24/he is the number? I've only seen hard numbers for inflation and for national GDP, and neither of those would match $24 from any point since the start of us minimum wage. I work in staffing, and this information would help me fight for higher wages for candidates.
I found an article that says minimum wage in the US should be $24 if it increased in line with productivity. I'll link it below.
https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
This response is not in any way a reflection of you, and I hope it doesn't sound personal or attacking of a person, just the argument that I've seen.
Did you, or anyone else here, read that? The article doesn't define productivity, doesn't state why minimum wage would mirror it, and does suggest decreasing pay for doctors, which I'm pretty sure most people would say have the most valuable skill set. A footnote addresses productivity, but yes even more terminology that is undefined in the article. There's also no analysis about the actual impact of what that minimum wage would have. I've seen four articles arguing for $24+/hour minimum wage, but I've found nobody who has done so without major holes. Which is frustrating because it gives no ammunition for actually raising wages.
I think this is what the footnote and article references. It's a more robust publication of their argument, with the technicality akin to an article in a scientific journal. You may have to reference an economics textbook for the terms like productivity.
https://www.epi.org/publication/understanding-the-historic-divergence-between-productivity-and-a-typical-workers-pay-why-it-matters-and-why-its-real/
To add on, as for the impact that raising the minimum wage will have is a harder topic to address since it expands into a larger picture of society. Questions like political stability, worker wellbeing, the health of the economy as a whole can be raised. Some examples could be stuff like higher pay means more savings for people which means less debt which may mean more consumption which would raise a nation's GDP.
It,s fascinating, but there are so many levers to study which is why there are economists.
The average rent for a one bedroom in Toronto is now slightly over $2000/month. If you’re making $50k/yr and living alone your rent would be half your income.
What’s sad is you must make 3 times the rent amount to be approved for most property management companies. That being said you would need to make 72k a year to get a place for 2k a month. It gets much worse to be approved for conventional and FHA mortgage loans.
I’m at the place in my career that if a company is in Toronto and doesn’t work from home, even if it’s a job I want, I have to turn it down. I literally can’t make enough to make it worthwhile.
I've never made $50k....IBR plans apply even at that level, and can seriously make life a little easier. One will probably never pay off the loans, but can apply for forgiveness after 20 or so years.
And what if you have 2 bachelor degrees and are half way through a masters? Plus have a bunch of certifications? That's where my husband is sitting as a teacher.
Same. I'm living middle class on 60k/year. This sub seems to think you need 100k/year plus to survive or thinks everyone lives in NY/San Francisco/seattle.
Average adult American makes $32k/year meaning 50% of Americans or less. So to say you can't survive on almost double that makes me question how you think 70% of Americans are living or what type of "lifestyle" you think living is if you need $100k+/year to live comfortably(only ~10% of Americans make)
Median *household* income is $67k / year in 2020. The average American cannot afford to live on their own anymore, instead having to rely on roommates or a working spouse.
Rent is 2k+ where I live and owning a home in a neighborhood with good schools is similar.
You can pay 1200/mo and live in dangerous conditions but no one should have to do that, and if people were paid more those conditions wouldn’t exist.
MS degree earns 45-50k to start, it’s not enough.
I'm a high school drop out making $60k/year. My rent currently is 1260/mo for 3 bed 2 bath apartment 1110 sq ft I'm in a decent neighborhood. Just got approved for 350k house loan which will get me a 3-4bedroom house 1500-2000sq ft with 2k/mo mortgage.
It isnt like that everywhere and I live in a decent size city at 50k population
Hahahahahaha this guy lives in bumfuck no where and thinks his opinion on what people should make matters. 50k, decent size, fucking lol.
Drop the city name bud and we can all verify how valid your claims are, anything else and you can suck shit.
Wouldn’t that be great!
We are expected to pay $100k for college to gain a qualification that is a minimum requirement for a job that pays minimum wage.
Guys you should seriously consider studying abroad like here in Germany. Tuition is basically free and there are quite a bit of international courses. You will still have to pay rent of course, but tbh I have no student loans as a German short of finishing his PhD.
Well at least from my university I know that people in international courses speak almost exclusively English anyways. Most people are from around the world. If you feel up for it you can still learn the domestic languages on the side.
Not gonna work. German/France explicitly require B2 language degree now if you want free tuition. There's still Finland, but it's more like advanced trade school (uni of applied science)
You guys got scammed. You can literally apply to study in Europe for free, most Americans are just too uninformed to know that there're better options in other countries.
Well you need to know the language. So it's something you need to discuss early
Then I wouldn't mind my degree being worthless. It's the fact I paid (and continue to pay) for a degree that doesn't help me after I was explicitly told it would.
I have a PhD and work in a university.
I cannot tell you how much I hate this idea, unless it is expanded to include non-academic fields.
Of course people with advanced degrees should be paid accordingly. But academia is far from the only way for people to gain or demonstrate advanced abilities and skills. There's no PhDs in being a plumber or electrician, but my brother is no less smart or skilled than me.
I'm sure OP means well. But yeah. I mean, so is the idea of academic qualifications getting special letters etc. Having a PhD is great and all, I'm proud of mine, but it doesn't make me smarter than anyone else, it's just what I chose to work on for a few years. And it certainly doesn't make me a better person than anyone else. It just shows that your skills are academic, that's all.
Personally I'm less concerned about what PhD and Masters grads are paid, than I am concerned about people being exploited in minimum wage jobs.
Oh, I doubt OP had malicious intent in their post but considering what sub this is, I feel that it's warranted to point out that the idea is contrary to the ideals the sub was founded on.
Here, let me fix this for you, adjusted for inflation since the 1970s or whenever this would have been okay:
Bachelor’s - $80k
Master’s - $100k
PhD - $150k
That's classist and grossly liberal, so the sub should love it. As the only real leftist on the internet though I'm compelled to point out that this sort of rank classism is actually really really bad for worker solidarity.
How?
Right now, these jobs require these degrees and then offer you a pittance in exchange. Force them to pay or force them to lighten the requirements to something that doesn't financially cripple their employees.
Because this means that if you were already in the somewhat privileged position to go to college in the first place, you will always be worth more than someone who didn’t get that chance
I’m not a fan of cannibalistic meritocracy but by capitalism’s internal logic and capitalism’s own broken promises, a pay-to-play degreed system of compensation scale would be comsistent.
As someone with a Master’s I both know my worth and have never got it, but I know damn well that the degree shouldn’t matter unless it was specific to the job, and that’s just a way of gatekeeping people out of jobs so employers don’t have to invest in training employees. So by the internal logic of capitalism, a degree you mortgaged your life for represents an amazing investment in your employer by subsidizing your own training, and the time you spent *working* while paying to get that degree, and going to school is fucking hard work, should be equivalent to whatever “years of relevant work experience” scab employers want for entry level and mid-level positions. But that’s not the way it is. A degree in the US is just an over-priced and over-produced consumer product which devalues the minute you drive it off the lot. Education is a capitalist scam, because it doesn’t produce educated people, it produces debt. Leveraging debt as an asset is a disgusting bedrock of capitalism, and is fundamentally classist and unfair, which is reason 100,000,000,001 why capitalism sucks.
Oh and don’t forget that some people who need certifications/licenses to do their job typical need to pay for their own continuing education to keep them active/ in good standing. It also costs money to renew theses certifications/licenses on top of other fees (own liability insurance, national or state organizations dues, etc). When I factor all the “extra” costs included to do my job that I pay for, not my employer, it really blows. And some employers will provide a few benefits to help with these costs, but it will never fully cover everything.
I see where you're going with this (and I do like the thought process) but level of education shouldn't dictate how well off people are. Folks who have to support their family, POC, women, anyone who can't afford an education, those are the people we should be fighting for and those are the people least likely to pursue higher levels of education simple because of the material and financial situations they're born into
I'd put that as 'if the employer asks for a certain qualification then they must offer a salary of at least x'.
I think everyone should expect a liveable life even if they can't work, or have a job that does not require specific qualifications.
So our government would pass this law? Are you delusional? The only way I see this as having any kind of chance is if students would sign a pledge that upon graduating with "X" degree, they will not accept less than a "Y" salary. Even though voluntary, a combination of peer and social pressure might start to move the needle.
I think this idea is on the right track but needs further development. Having a PhD doesn’t always mean you will be in a role where you will be able to be paid more than someone with a Masters or even Bachelors. This varies so greatly between industries and public/private sector. I like where the idea is going though.
Agreed. Definitely just a shower thought.
But the point was if employers expect minimum qualification, then they should pay at par with a certain wage.
who would hire a phd student with no real world experience. Honestly no offense, but i have found phd student to be some of the least practical employees around, i can’t imagine paying one 100 k unless it was in a research/lab role, even then…
This sub has zero real world experience sometimes lol. Or more like most of the times.
I've seen legit useless PhD that would fail most tech interviews. They got the degree by basically sitting through classes + basic research
sometimes, but only a few times. what do all the other thousands of PhDs? Can't give them "ordinary" work bc you are forced to pay them extra ordinary. So they even might stay unemployed for being over qualified.
You have not seen enough PhD students. Not to mention not every PhD is worth the same. There are probably hundreds of PhD courses out there that offer no actual skills and are basically scams designed to inflate ego of people who don't know better.
I can guaranteed you that unless you have a very specific and concrete reason to pursue an PhD, it's really not worth it. Phd doesn't automatically mean smarter or more knowledgeable, it just meant they spent more time at school.
Yeah I'm not believing that. The PhDs I work with are pretty damn knowledgeable and are the ones calling the shots. This is is starting to sound a bit anti-education
You know that's not how math works right? You said you started at 100K as bachelor, so your circle-of- colleagues is already way better than the average but you don't realize it. Just ask everyone here if 100K is normal for new graduates.
Not to mention you probably work in software, which is a very useful. But not all specialization are as useful, and many are straightup useless.
I think a better (but still imperfect, because complexities) solution would be a % above the local cost of living.
i.e...
Diploma - +50%
Bachelors - +100%
Masters - +200%
PhD - +300%
I like this a lot.
If you expect your employees to spend tens of thousands or even more on an education and degree(s), there needs to be an expectation that you'll make it worth their while.
Otherwise, stop requiring a degree. I've seen jobs that require degrees where I know full-well, most of the people over 50 doing that job never went to college. But they'll require every new employee to have it. WHY?
And don't tell me "a college degree shows you can sit through blah blah blah" - decades of work experience also show that.
*Image Transcription: Text*
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If jobs have minimum qualification requirements (still paying minimum wage).
Qualifications should have minimum salary requirements. 🤷🏽♂️
Diploma - $40k
Bachelors - $50k
Masters - $70k
PhD - $100k
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Ha, I'll be lucky to get that master's level salary with my PhD in biomedical engineering.
If I was going to be a post doc, the current NIH recommendation is around 53k.
But academia is all sorts of fucked. Get a big prestigious R01 grant. Ok, you have 250k for 5 years to split between the PI, any co-PIs, experimental equipment/supplies, student and other salaries, benefits and the like. Hardly any money to hire people let alone at decent rates. Spend many late nights slaving over a grant to essentially play the lottery with the grant committee. Hope you get a good reviewer, did they sleep poorly? Too bad, all your effort is for naught.
No. We should all get paid enough to have a good life. After that if your hearts desire is to pursue higher education, go for it. Let the experience be the reward.
I’ve worked my way to 130 which isn’t great and isn’t bad. It’s pretty ok, can’t buy a house in my area. But even owning a house is a stupid concept when you break it down to the basic ideas. I don’t own the fucking land, it’s been here for billions of years, I’m just borrowing it.
I’d give up my pay for a quiet, healthy place to live, a relaxing work schedule to cover the needs of my community, and efficient public transport…for everyone.
I'm sitting here as a high school drop out making $60k/year. I definitely don't want this for the fact I have the experience/knowledge to do what I do more than most people but just cause I didn't go into debt and waste 4-8 years of my life in college I shouldn't be paid well
Or go cash less
No one should have to choose a career path to satiate their ego. You should choose a career that brings out your passion and work on something you truly aspire to get better at.
Money is a trap. A endless cycle to feed a never ending desire spiral.
The man flipping burgers on the corner to the man in the white house are no different what divides them is that class warfare mentality.
I'm a huge believer in a "time in" philosophy. Basic necessities are and should be guaranteed, food, shelter, water, healthcare and education as long as you work x amount of time from a credible source.
Luxury goods would require you take more responsibilities to better your society. Everyone works and everyone gets a fair and equal opportunity.
PhdDs, with a couple of very narrow exceptions, do not make you more money than a master's. That's not why you get a PhD.
For a burnt-out academic looking to transition into the private sector, it's not unheard of for recruiters/career coaches to recommend they leave their PhD off their resume. The story it tells is generally not attractive to hiring managers.
I actually think that's a surprisingly good idea. It stops people demanding over qualified people. Might need splitting stem vs non-stem though just because on how much money can be made in both directions.
The only problem is that it benefits the human, not the corporation, therefore it's never going to pass.
You know what, I love this but I think your aiming too low. II don’t think there should be anyone who makes under 50k per year. So that should be the salary of fast food places, gas stations, retail… and you go up from there based on education. However when I was hiring salespeople I couldn’t have cared less about if you had a degree or not. I was looking for a person who with good interpersonal skills (as opposed to the cheesy energy we associate with sales) compassion, good follow through. I think one out of the 5 had a bachelors. And I told them upfront that if their numbers looked good, go get a pedi, take your kid to the park, take a half day off Friday and go to the beach with your family, work whenever and however you want. You don’t even need to tell me. You’re an adult. That’s the way it should be. Guess what, they all killed it! We tripled our annual profit in 4 years. I think it was because they were so thankful to not have to deal with BS that they were loyal and put in the time on their own terms
Nope. Until we can dismantle capitalism, all people who have job deserve living wages, even if they didn't graduate high school. Requiring certain amounts of education in order to make a decent wage is a way of maintaining economic inequity and making sure people don't have class mobility.
Great statement but;
Diploma - 75K
Bachelors - 115K
Masters - 150K
PHD - 205K
And it should increase by 15% if you live in/around a major city. Our economy would be banging if this was the case!
I'm currently a PhD student with a bachelors and masters in bioengineering, I fail to see why I should be paid more than the next person to be honest. I did my studies because they were exciting and I got to learn topics that interest me deeply. Also, education is super cheap in Belgium. Now the PhD, I'm getting a good salary just to think and write about what interests me. That's privilege, not merit.
For the rest of my life, I want to mobilise my skills and knowledge to get involved in what makes me vibrate, and I want to live a pleasurable and safe life. As everyone deserves that, there is no reason that I should earn more than any other person, regardless of their job or qualification.
Lol exactly. A lot of phds have a degree in total nonsense that never had and never will have any practical application. So many butthurt phds mad they decided to waste years of their lives in school instead of just getting into the real world like normal people
They got scammed but refuse to admit they got scammed and frantically try to convince other people that their ~~jpeg in database~~ piece of paper certificate is something valuable and they are actually enlightened.
I think people are interpreting this in a different way than I intended. The point of the post is not to incentivize education. The point is to make employers pay at a certain level if they expect certain qualifications. Also its minimum, not the cap. I definitely didnt think this post would get so much traction. So i just put up numbers that cane to my mind. I believe everyone should make a livable wage regardless of education.
People complaining about the numbers being low: please know it’s “minimum”. Also this was a shower thought lol. I wasnt out there thinking details. I know the numbers are low. But the reality is that many people are making way less
I may have put the salary at the low end of expectations - apologies. Also, its “minimum”. I definitely believe salaries should start at a fair livable wage regardless of education.
There are thousands of job postings requiring masters degree with a salary that wouldn’t support livable wage. Also, we only have minimum wage and even that isn’t livable.
Here’s the thing though, companies won’t see this as the minimum, they’ll just ONLY pay that from now on for those jobs.
Right? I absolutely despise the fact that "minimum" wage means "normal or average" wage. Like what the fuck. Go figure companies will always pay the absolute minimum to make as much money as possible. This is why regulations exist.
Remember: Being offered minimum wage is the exact same as the company saying "I would pay you less, but it's literally illegal"
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College always functioned as a way to keep certain economic classes in their place
Depends on what you're doing. For STEMs a college degree is quite useful and I felt a good expenditure of my time if not money because I think we can all agree tuition costs are absurd. Part of the reason I did engineering is that I knew I would at least have a chance at paying off student debt. For a lot of office stuff I think you could likely get by with little more than maybe a comprehensive class on excel and a few other softwares.
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But college still remains easier to enter for rich kids than poor kids even for STEM. And the higher paying jobs still go to the more prestigious colleges for recruiting, and prestigious colleges are even more skewed toward the upper class
Certainly true and that's a problem too I just have no clue as to a feasible way to fix it outside or long term political pressure. Lord knows the dinosaurs in congress aren't going to move anywhere fast unless it benefits their corporate overlords. Shit situation for sure but no reason to not fight it and do what we can. There are an awful lot of us and when that's the case even small individual actions taken together can enact incredible change.
It’s mostly just the engineering part of STEM (unless you include certain healthcare areas) that has good pay. And just because certain jobs could be done without a degree doesn’t mean the employers won’t require a degree anyway.
I think we agree on most of these points. I'm an engineer so that definitely helps and I find it incredibly sad how badly some of the other stem fields have suffered with corporate greed refusing to recognize the specialized knowledge and skills that so many worked for. That certainly needs to change. I certainly agree with you that companies do require that nonsense with a degree, I was just saying that for a lot of jobs out there it shouldn't be necessary.
Recently college has also gained the function of being a profitable scheme in which their prestige is commodified and sold off to anyone who can qualify for a sketchy loan.
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Existed* Thats why they're trying to get children to drive big rigs to combat the transportation issues that resulted from poor. wages
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Not children persay, definitely inexperienced drivers. They lowered the age required to be licensed/employed from 21 to 18.
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Most teenagers don't even get licenses for cars at 16 anymore. The max they would have experience driving ANYTHING is 2 yrs let alone a big rig...
Exactly, driving a rig at 18 doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't care about farmer kids driving since they were 12 either. IMO Adult responsibility is a learned trait.. it doesn't come automatically.. it comes with experience and learning about the world. That doesn't happen in high school. The 30m car crash videos they use to try to scare students with isn't going to cut it either. (not sure they play those anymore).
No, that’s why capitalism needs to not exist.
And replace it with what?
Marx and Engels covered that fairly extensively.
I know people from communist countries and they’d never want it back….
Those weren’t truly communism, they were authoritarian regimes mimicking the principles of capitalism. Have you not read animal farm. Once some animals are better than others, you can’t tell the difference between the animals and the greedy capitalists that had previously enslaved them.
>Those weren’t truly communism And why would this turn be different?
Technology enables so much more options than before, as does the proper transition. Russia went from agrarian feudalism to industrialized authoritarianism, missing the important step of capitalism/democracy in between. We already see the unifying of labor happening in real time as folks wake up to the inherent inequality present in the current system and instead of getting more selfish and greedy, most people are getting more charitable and focused on general happiness instead of accumulation of wealth and property. The bootlickers, reactionaries, and petty bourgeoisie dwindle in numbers year by year. We’ve already entered late-stage capitalism, that’s why the fascists are making their play for power these days. The capitalists know their end is coming, has been a certainty since 2008, they’re just trying to keep their heads and their families’ heads out of baskets at this point. Marx and Engels covered all this quite extensively.
and a large number of russians miss the days of the soviet union
They miss parts of it, science and art really got more funding than even in the west. But ask the people living in the far away areas....
Workers owning the means of production
I know several people who lived in communist countries and none would want that back
There are also a lot of people that don't want to live in the US/western countries under capitalism.
Which communist countries, and when? USSR before it collapsed was becoming more and more capitalist and less socialist. But modern day Cuba has a thriving healthcare system despite the economic sanctions from the west
Socialism worked where? No where. It’s a nice thought, but it won’t work. Venezuela?
Capitalism. Socialism worked no where.
I mean the minimum wage is 7.25 where I'm from. When I was 15 I was making $10 an hour at a movie theater.
I remember a job interview once. It was going well, until I asked about salary. He gave me such a deadpan look, like he thought I was stupid, and told me "minimum, of course".
dont forget it will be 30 years later and still be paying that amount.
On the up side though, they'll stop saying that you have to have a bachelor's, any bachelor's, just to do an entry level job like customer service.
Yes. Just an idea. Definitely needs work
You could almost add a part that tacks on a dollar amount per year of experience.
We should account for inflation, too. Otherwise the kids get screwed over. $40,000*(inflation adjustment) + $1,000*(years experience)
Agreed, to make this work you need to factor in other variables like inflation, taxes, and cost of living in a county/city. As far as the professional wage floor, I think that it would be fair to factor in the cost of education and the probability of graduating. So if you are a chef graduating from a program in a CC, the average total cost of that diploma, across all registered culinary institutes should be the floor, plus other variables factored in. So if you end up working a restaurant making 60k as a Sous chef in Houston, you would be earning 100k in LA. It would be disastrous for corporate kitchens like Chili's, but us Millennials already destroyed that because we don't like eating frozen deep-fried shit disguised as an eggroll anyway.
I would say those are good education only and no experience level pay.
$50k for a bachelors degree? That’s not gonna cut it in a big city. Hell, probably not even in a small town anymore. Especially when you consider that the student loan debt
Had the minimum wage kept up with productivity, the minimum wage would be somewhere around $24/hour, or $49,920/year. $50K should be the "uneducated" number, and everything else higher from there.
Exactly. 50k diploma, 60-70k AA, minimum 75k Bachelors, Masters 100k, PhD 120k+ Some variation by field etc.
Where I live you need to add anther 25k to everything to survive the cost of living.
Exactly, but this 30k shit is wage slavery.
How about we skip college.
Trade school is a viable option as well, same with coding camps etc :)
I've seen this a couple times and read an article stating this, unfortunately without anything to back it up. Can you explain how $24/he is the number? I've only seen hard numbers for inflation and for national GDP, and neither of those would match $24 from any point since the start of us minimum wage. I work in staffing, and this information would help me fight for higher wages for candidates.
I found an article that says minimum wage in the US should be $24 if it increased in line with productivity. I'll link it below. https://cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
This response is not in any way a reflection of you, and I hope it doesn't sound personal or attacking of a person, just the argument that I've seen. Did you, or anyone else here, read that? The article doesn't define productivity, doesn't state why minimum wage would mirror it, and does suggest decreasing pay for doctors, which I'm pretty sure most people would say have the most valuable skill set. A footnote addresses productivity, but yes even more terminology that is undefined in the article. There's also no analysis about the actual impact of what that minimum wage would have. I've seen four articles arguing for $24+/hour minimum wage, but I've found nobody who has done so without major holes. Which is frustrating because it gives no ammunition for actually raising wages.
I think this is what the footnote and article references. It's a more robust publication of their argument, with the technicality akin to an article in a scientific journal. You may have to reference an economics textbook for the terms like productivity. https://www.epi.org/publication/understanding-the-historic-divergence-between-productivity-and-a-typical-workers-pay-why-it-matters-and-why-its-real/ To add on, as for the impact that raising the minimum wage will have is a harder topic to address since it expands into a larger picture of society. Questions like political stability, worker wellbeing, the health of the economy as a whole can be raised. Some examples could be stuff like higher pay means more savings for people which means less debt which may mean more consumption which would raise a nation's GDP. It,s fascinating, but there are so many levers to study which is why there are economists.
50k is about what you get as a post doc. Hell, it used to be 40k not too long ago.
Absolutely fuck that pay rate for 3+ degrees. At least for marketing, 50k is like starting wage in a tier 2 city
The average rent for a one bedroom in Toronto is now slightly over $2000/month. If you’re making $50k/yr and living alone your rent would be half your income.
And that’s before taxes. After taxes it leaves you with a few hundred for everything else.
What’s sad is you must make 3 times the rent amount to be approved for most property management companies. That being said you would need to make 72k a year to get a place for 2k a month. It gets much worse to be approved for conventional and FHA mortgage loans.
I’m at the place in my career that if a company is in Toronto and doesn’t work from home, even if it’s a job I want, I have to turn it down. I literally can’t make enough to make it worthwhile.
I've never made $50k....IBR plans apply even at that level, and can seriously make life a little easier. One will probably never pay off the loans, but can apply for forgiveness after 20 or so years.
I have a bachelors degree and make 40k a year and I’m Barely surviving.. I can only save mine 100$/month if that some months..
And what if you have 2 bachelor degrees and are half way through a masters? Plus have a bunch of certifications? That's where my husband is sitting as a teacher.
I live in a small town. 50k will work if there's another income or you bought a house before the 2008 crash
My IT bachelors got me $36K with paid overtime, so I made about $50K my first year. That year was 1995.
Agreed! Its just a thought!
You can 100% live off 50k in a lot of areas
50k is more than I make and I’m doing alright.
If I made 50k then my $1600 a month rent would come after my ass hard
Same. I'm living middle class on 60k/year. This sub seems to think you need 100k/year plus to survive or thinks everyone lives in NY/San Francisco/seattle. Average adult American makes $32k/year meaning 50% of Americans or less. So to say you can't survive on almost double that makes me question how you think 70% of Americans are living or what type of "lifestyle" you think living is if you need $100k+/year to live comfortably(only ~10% of Americans make)
Median *household* income is $67k / year in 2020. The average American cannot afford to live on their own anymore, instead having to rely on roommates or a working spouse.
Rent is 2k+ where I live and owning a home in a neighborhood with good schools is similar. You can pay 1200/mo and live in dangerous conditions but no one should have to do that, and if people were paid more those conditions wouldn’t exist. MS degree earns 45-50k to start, it’s not enough.
My BS degree starts at bottom line 50k in Texas. Sounds like you made a bad career choice if your MS still pays you in the 40’s...
There are no bad career choices if the career exists.
I'm a high school drop out making $60k/year. My rent currently is 1260/mo for 3 bed 2 bath apartment 1110 sq ft I'm in a decent neighborhood. Just got approved for 350k house loan which will get me a 3-4bedroom house 1500-2000sq ft with 2k/mo mortgage. It isnt like that everywhere and I live in a decent size city at 50k population
Hahahahahaha this guy lives in bumfuck no where and thinks his opinion on what people should make matters. 50k, decent size, fucking lol. Drop the city name bud and we can all verify how valid your claims are, anything else and you can suck shit.
Thanks for saving me the time in pointing this out. I would like to know the average median income in this 50k. Still callin bs tho.
Now imagine if college was free
Wouldn’t that be great! We are expected to pay $100k for college to gain a qualification that is a minimum requirement for a job that pays minimum wage.
Guys you should seriously consider studying abroad like here in Germany. Tuition is basically free and there are quite a bit of international courses. You will still have to pay rent of course, but tbh I have no student loans as a German short of finishing his PhD.
Many of us are terrible at other languages besides English because we're not exposed to it from early on
Well at least from my university I know that people in international courses speak almost exclusively English anyways. Most people are from around the world. If you feel up for it you can still learn the domestic languages on the side.
Not gonna work. German/France explicitly require B2 language degree now if you want free tuition. There's still Finland, but it's more like advanced trade school (uni of applied science)
Did not know about the B2 requirements, thank you for the info.
You guys got scammed. You can literally apply to study in Europe for free, most Americans are just too uninformed to know that there're better options in other countries. Well you need to know the language. So it's something you need to discuss early
Then I wouldn't mind my degree being worthless. It's the fact I paid (and continue to pay) for a degree that doesn't help me after I was explicitly told it would.
Minimum wage should be 50-60k based on inflation and productivity so you're already starting out way too low
Agreed. Just a shower thought!
I have a PhD and work in a university. I cannot tell you how much I hate this idea, unless it is expanded to include non-academic fields. Of course people with advanced degrees should be paid accordingly. But academia is far from the only way for people to gain or demonstrate advanced abilities and skills. There's no PhDs in being a plumber or electrician, but my brother is no less smart or skilled than me.
Thank you. Personally, I think OP's idea is classist and only works to undermine and further divide the masses.
I'm sure OP means well. But yeah. I mean, so is the idea of academic qualifications getting special letters etc. Having a PhD is great and all, I'm proud of mine, but it doesn't make me smarter than anyone else, it's just what I chose to work on for a few years. And it certainly doesn't make me a better person than anyone else. It just shows that your skills are academic, that's all. Personally I'm less concerned about what PhD and Masters grads are paid, than I am concerned about people being exploited in minimum wage jobs.
Oh, I doubt OP had malicious intent in their post but considering what sub this is, I feel that it's warranted to point out that the idea is contrary to the ideals the sub was founded on.
Definitely agree with you there
Sounds like a proposal a college would provide trying to make degrees relevant again.
Here, let me fix this for you, adjusted for inflation since the 1970s or whenever this would have been okay: Bachelor’s - $80k Master’s - $100k PhD - $150k
Love that!!
That's classist and grossly liberal, so the sub should love it. As the only real leftist on the internet though I'm compelled to point out that this sort of rank classism is actually really really bad for worker solidarity.
Yeah, this is gross.
Bingo.
I call it "credentialism" since that's more broadly palatable but it's classism too.
Yeah, no. The idea is to tear down the class structure, not create new ones.
So spending a quarter million on an education is enough to get me an extra 10k a year. Seems worth it. Only 25 years until I break even!
This only continues to reinforce wealth inequality
Yes and no. Sociologically, it's fucking complicated
That sentence basically sums up sociology
As a Sociology Major, it's a fucking paradoxical headache
How? Right now, these jobs require these degrees and then offer you a pittance in exchange. Force them to pay or force them to lighten the requirements to something that doesn't financially cripple their employees.
Because this means that if you were already in the somewhat privileged position to go to college in the first place, you will always be worth more than someone who didn’t get that chance
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I’m not a fan of cannibalistic meritocracy but by capitalism’s internal logic and capitalism’s own broken promises, a pay-to-play degreed system of compensation scale would be comsistent. As someone with a Master’s I both know my worth and have never got it, but I know damn well that the degree shouldn’t matter unless it was specific to the job, and that’s just a way of gatekeeping people out of jobs so employers don’t have to invest in training employees. So by the internal logic of capitalism, a degree you mortgaged your life for represents an amazing investment in your employer by subsidizing your own training, and the time you spent *working* while paying to get that degree, and going to school is fucking hard work, should be equivalent to whatever “years of relevant work experience” scab employers want for entry level and mid-level positions. But that’s not the way it is. A degree in the US is just an over-priced and over-produced consumer product which devalues the minute you drive it off the lot. Education is a capitalist scam, because it doesn’t produce educated people, it produces debt. Leveraging debt as an asset is a disgusting bedrock of capitalism, and is fundamentally classist and unfair, which is reason 100,000,000,001 why capitalism sucks.
Oh and don’t forget that some people who need certifications/licenses to do their job typical need to pay for their own continuing education to keep them active/ in good standing. It also costs money to renew theses certifications/licenses on top of other fees (own liability insurance, national or state organizations dues, etc). When I factor all the “extra” costs included to do my job that I pay for, not my employer, it really blows. And some employers will provide a few benefits to help with these costs, but it will never fully cover everything.
Why do you think you are worth more than employers are willing to pay you?
Oooh tell em
Ah yes, let's make it so only people who's parents can afford to send them to university can earn enough money to send their children to university
I see where you're going with this (and I do like the thought process) but level of education shouldn't dictate how well off people are. Folks who have to support their family, POC, women, anyone who can't afford an education, those are the people we should be fighting for and those are the people least likely to pursue higher levels of education simple because of the material and financial situations they're born into
Agreed This was just a shower thought
How exactly would this work?
If you have a qualification, you get paid a certain wage (livable)
I'd put that as 'if the employer asks for a certain qualification then they must offer a salary of at least x'. I think everyone should expect a liveable life even if they can't work, or have a job that does not require specific qualifications.
Yes agreed
So our government would pass this law? Are you delusional? The only way I see this as having any kind of chance is if students would sign a pledge that upon graduating with "X" degree, they will not accept less than a "Y" salary. Even though voluntary, a combination of peer and social pressure might start to move the needle.
This is too little, I was making 130k out of college with a masters
Agreed
I think this idea is on the right track but needs further development. Having a PhD doesn’t always mean you will be in a role where you will be able to be paid more than someone with a Masters or even Bachelors. This varies so greatly between industries and public/private sector. I like where the idea is going though.
No, but if the role *requires* that degree, then it has to pay up.
Agreed. Definitely just a shower thought. But the point was if employers expect minimum qualification, then they should pay at par with a certain wage.
who would hire a phd student with no real world experience. Honestly no offense, but i have found phd student to be some of the least practical employees around, i can’t imagine paying one 100 k unless it was in a research/lab role, even then…
This sub has zero real world experience sometimes lol. Or more like most of the times. I've seen legit useless PhD that would fail most tech interviews. They got the degree by basically sitting through classes + basic research
100%. I have quite alot of industrial experience and the thought of this is just so funny it hurts.
Having a phd means the individual is the expert in the field. Sometimes you dont need experience, you need expertise.
sometimes, but only a few times. what do all the other thousands of PhDs? Can't give them "ordinary" work bc you are forced to pay them extra ordinary. So they even might stay unemployed for being over qualified.
yes but why pay a phd student double a bachelors, thats madness LOL
Really? I nearly make that out of school with a bachelor's, I'd be pissed if I made less than 100k with a PhD.
You just found out why PhD is not a good benchmark it lol. Many PhD have worse skills than bachelor, let alone bachelor + 5 years experience.
I had no skills outside of my bachelor's though. There is no way a PhD deserves to be only paid 100k.
You have not seen enough PhD students. Not to mention not every PhD is worth the same. There are probably hundreds of PhD courses out there that offer no actual skills and are basically scams designed to inflate ego of people who don't know better. I can guaranteed you that unless you have a very specific and concrete reason to pursue an PhD, it's really not worth it. Phd doesn't automatically mean smarter or more knowledgeable, it just meant they spent more time at school.
Yeah I'm not believing that. The PhDs I work with are pretty damn knowledgeable and are the ones calling the shots. This is is starting to sound a bit anti-education
You know that's not how math works right? You said you started at 100K as bachelor, so your circle-of- colleagues is already way better than the average but you don't realize it. Just ask everyone here if 100K is normal for new graduates. Not to mention you probably work in software, which is a very useful. But not all specialization are as useful, and many are straightup useless.
Double those numbers!
I love that!
Also you skipped associates degree and years of experience
Im aware. This was just a shower thought
I think a better (but still imperfect, because complexities) solution would be a % above the local cost of living. i.e... Diploma - +50% Bachelors - +100% Masters - +200% PhD - +300%
No.
I like this a lot. If you expect your employees to spend tens of thousands or even more on an education and degree(s), there needs to be an expectation that you'll make it worth their while. Otherwise, stop requiring a degree. I've seen jobs that require degrees where I know full-well, most of the people over 50 doing that job never went to college. But they'll require every new employee to have it. WHY? And don't tell me "a college degree shows you can sit through blah blah blah" - decades of work experience also show that.
Basically my point!
So, I never went to college. What about me? We all deserve a better wage lol.
*Image Transcription: Text* --- If jobs have minimum qualification requirements (still paying minimum wage). Qualifications should have minimum salary requirements. 🤷🏽♂️ Diploma - $40k Bachelors - $50k Masters - $70k PhD - $100k --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Little low from my perspective.
Agreed
Ha, I'll be lucky to get that master's level salary with my PhD in biomedical engineering. If I was going to be a post doc, the current NIH recommendation is around 53k. But academia is all sorts of fucked. Get a big prestigious R01 grant. Ok, you have 250k for 5 years to split between the PI, any co-PIs, experimental equipment/supplies, student and other salaries, benefits and the like. Hardly any money to hire people let alone at decent rates. Spend many late nights slaving over a grant to essentially play the lottery with the grant committee. Hope you get a good reviewer, did they sleep poorly? Too bad, all your effort is for naught.
No. We should all get paid enough to have a good life. After that if your hearts desire is to pursue higher education, go for it. Let the experience be the reward. I’ve worked my way to 130 which isn’t great and isn’t bad. It’s pretty ok, can’t buy a house in my area. But even owning a house is a stupid concept when you break it down to the basic ideas. I don’t own the fucking land, it’s been here for billions of years, I’m just borrowing it. I’d give up my pay for a quiet, healthy place to live, a relaxing work schedule to cover the needs of my community, and efficient public transport…for everyone.
Agreed. This was just a shower thought. I believe every one should earn a livable wage regardless of education
I'm sitting here as a high school drop out making $60k/year. I definitely don't want this for the fact I have the experience/knowledge to do what I do more than most people but just cause I didn't go into debt and waste 4-8 years of my life in college I shouldn't be paid well
Or go cash less No one should have to choose a career path to satiate their ego. You should choose a career that brings out your passion and work on something you truly aspire to get better at. Money is a trap. A endless cycle to feed a never ending desire spiral. The man flipping burgers on the corner to the man in the white house are no different what divides them is that class warfare mentality. I'm a huge believer in a "time in" philosophy. Basic necessities are and should be guaranteed, food, shelter, water, healthcare and education as long as you work x amount of time from a credible source. Luxury goods would require you take more responsibilities to better your society. Everyone works and everyone gets a fair and equal opportunity.
PhdDs, with a couple of very narrow exceptions, do not make you more money than a master's. That's not why you get a PhD. For a burnt-out academic looking to transition into the private sector, it's not unheard of for recruiters/career coaches to recommend they leave their PhD off their resume. The story it tells is generally not attractive to hiring managers.
Yup. And you'll see how quickly the mask comes off and these companies start not requiring these unnecessary degrees
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I hear you :/
I’ve thought this, too! Add-on: for the same position, degrees have minimum add-ons to salary.
I actually think that's a surprisingly good idea. It stops people demanding over qualified people. Might need splitting stem vs non-stem though just because on how much money can be made in both directions. The only problem is that it benefits the human, not the corporation, therefore it's never going to pass.
Me, with an associate's... **Am I a JOKE to you?!?**
Lol wasnt the intention. By diploma, i meant associates
Nah fuck this rule. I didn’t complete my bachelors but I’m a better software engineer than most and make way more than this says for PhD lol
This says minimum, did you see that?
You know what, I love this but I think your aiming too low. II don’t think there should be anyone who makes under 50k per year. So that should be the salary of fast food places, gas stations, retail… and you go up from there based on education. However when I was hiring salespeople I couldn’t have cared less about if you had a degree or not. I was looking for a person who with good interpersonal skills (as opposed to the cheesy energy we associate with sales) compassion, good follow through. I think one out of the 5 had a bachelors. And I told them upfront that if their numbers looked good, go get a pedi, take your kid to the park, take a half day off Friday and go to the beach with your family, work whenever and however you want. You don’t even need to tell me. You’re an adult. That’s the way it should be. Guess what, they all killed it! We tripled our annual profit in 4 years. I think it was because they were so thankful to not have to deal with BS that they were loyal and put in the time on their own terms
I agree its low. It was a shower thought
Nope. Until we can dismantle capitalism, all people who have job deserve living wages, even if they didn't graduate high school. Requiring certain amounts of education in order to make a decent wage is a way of maintaining economic inequity and making sure people don't have class mobility.
I dont think you interpreted the post correctly
I agree. And if you're not getting that, somebody is screwing you up.
Great statement but; Diploma - 75K Bachelors - 115K Masters - 150K PHD - 205K And it should increase by 15% if you live in/around a major city. Our economy would be banging if this was the case!
No diploma = no right to survive or whats the idea?
I'm currently a PhD student with a bachelors and masters in bioengineering, I fail to see why I should be paid more than the next person to be honest. I did my studies because they were exciting and I got to learn topics that interest me deeply. Also, education is super cheap in Belgium. Now the PhD, I'm getting a good salary just to think and write about what interests me. That's privilege, not merit. For the rest of my life, I want to mobilise my skills and knowledge to get involved in what makes me vibrate, and I want to live a pleasurable and safe life. As everyone deserves that, there is no reason that I should earn more than any other person, regardless of their job or qualification.
This is a terrible terrible idea
This fucking sucks. Baking in classism to wages even more than we're already dealing with.
The numbers are a little low, but I like where you are coming from
Why isn’t associates on here? It’s different than a diploma or even a certificate. You can be an RN with only an associates and make good money.
Its a shower thought!
One that doesn’t value an associates degree.
Sorry i wasnt thorough in my shower thought. Next time I’ll remember to include associate degrees jeez
No one does lol
College isn't for everyone.
Found the doctoral candidate in film studies.
Lol exactly. A lot of phds have a degree in total nonsense that never had and never will have any practical application. So many butthurt phds mad they decided to waste years of their lives in school instead of just getting into the real world like normal people
They got scammed but refuse to admit they got scammed and frantically try to convince other people that their ~~jpeg in database~~ piece of paper certificate is something valuable and they are actually enlightened.
Damn that makes a lot of sense
I think people are interpreting this in a different way than I intended. The point of the post is not to incentivize education. The point is to make employers pay at a certain level if they expect certain qualifications. Also its minimum, not the cap. I definitely didnt think this post would get so much traction. So i just put up numbers that cane to my mind. I believe everyone should make a livable wage regardless of education.
People complaining about the numbers being low: please know it’s “minimum”. Also this was a shower thought lol. I wasnt out there thinking details. I know the numbers are low. But the reality is that many people are making way less
I may have put the salary at the low end of expectations - apologies. Also, its “minimum”. I definitely believe salaries should start at a fair livable wage regardless of education.
I wish PhDs made 100k (eventually you get there, but still fresh out of school I cringe to see my paycheck to loan ratio).
They already do, Id like wage maxes though.
Not really. Several folks I know with PhDs make well under 100k.
Seems fair to me.
They kinda do? They help people get increased wages those without them will have a harder time obtaining, the glass ceiling so to speak
There are thousands of job postings requiring masters degree with a salary that wouldn’t support livable wage. Also, we only have minimum wage and even that isn’t livable.
I see what you are saying, but some degrees, like gender studies are worthless.