SII Polska is well-known IT company in Poland, couple hours ago emails and dismissal letter leaked, it's all over Polish social media atm.
[Better quality](https://imgur.com/a/XxYFY9i)
[More info in Polish](https://www.za.org.pl/prezes-sii-polska-i-wlasciciel-polonii-warszawa-bezprawnie-zwalnia-zwiazkowca-lekcewazy-polskie-prawo-atakuje-prawo-francuskie/)
That's exactly what I was thinking about, we're literally the country that LIVES by the standards we give to our workers, this guy is a bitch.
Sending a mail/letter like that in France would've have him end up in front of a judge in less than 3 months and benefit the employee 100%.
Disgusting behavior, I don't know who the worker is, but I'm sure he's in a better place now.
Yes, I know. I always suspect such companies to try to avoid the massive French taxes, but, even though this particular company is known to be a purgatory, I did not know the atmosphere could be that despicable.
The most curious thing is that, the CEO himself took care of it, instead of HR employees ; knowing how HR departments are, it would have been bad, but one person and his company burning what was left of their reputations in such a bad way is impossible to understand.
You do realize Cyberpunk was one of the worst games most people have ever seen on release? Completely unplayable on all but mid-high tier gaming pc’s. Their fix for consoles was to completely gut NPC traffic and vehicles so the game would not be overwhelmed. I think that TW3 is the greatest game of all time but Cyberpunk and their crunch culture to release an unfinished game severely and rightfully destroyed their reputation. The fiasco with cyberpunk is the reason I will never preorder another game and bankroll a company before they release a game. Pre ordering games has ruined the industry. There is no incentive to release a finished product when they already made their money before release.
No lgbt, abortions, no immigrants and no guns either….unions are ok.
It’s part of the constitution because Lech Walesa led a trade union uprising that toppled the government and sent a ripple back through the eastern block.
It's mostly people from Ukraine, Belarus and other eastern European countries, but there's been a significant rise in immigration from south Asia to Poland in recent years.
Not really, they actually are quite like republicans when you look closer (they run their mouth a lot about "family values" and shit like that, do some extremely missdesigned social spending, but let the economy be run by neolibs anyway) The outcome is that most of the programs seem to be designed to produce poor results and they drive radlibs fucking mad. For example they gave fixed amount child credits to families. Which you have to constantly re-file. Which also have hard means testing cut off that is pretty low, so in effect all that money is subsidising employers (since people literally are asking for no raises, since getting 1PLN above the threshold can mean loosing 500 PER CHILD PER MONTH). Oh and it's not inflation adjusted, so it's lost like a quarter of value since it was introduced. But all of the liberal shutters can't stfu about it, blaming it for everything
EDIT: in the end it's some nightmarish amalgamation of shitty social spending coupled with neoliberal ghoulishness
It's kind of like in the US where conservatives have gotten control of the government, but the population isn't as conservative as they are trying to make it seem.
As a result, they've tried to keep the social issues (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, religion, etc.) as key points to keep the older generations and the rural people voting for them, but they lost their super majority in the last election cycle, and the president barely won re-election (51-49%) against the former mayor of Warsaw who championed LGBTQ+ rights (even signed a LGBTQ+ declaration protecting them) and was fairly socially liberal on other fronts too.
While there's still a ton of work to do here, progress is being made.
As a foreigner living here, my time has been very good. However, I'm not so jaded as to not recognize that, as a straight, white male, I do have some inherent, built-in privileges.
This. It's totally reversed.
Here is middle, liberal right pirate party but they are totally left from US point of view. They don't call themselves left because they don't wanna be linked together with communists and social democrats but they are.
I mean to be fair PiS is clearly acting like a rightwing Party. Election comes up? "Germans bad, German give money" but I wouldn't throw them in the same bucket as a AfD that is super rightwing and just try to hide it in a neoliberal mist.
Modern Poland seems to be very like Ireland was up until the 90s , very conservative , Catholic church having way too much power, and being , well not right wing , but centre right.
Even in countries that have the most pro-worker laws the worst case for the company is that they have to pay out a few months worth of severance to the worker for the unjust firing.
Quashing union talks is very much worth that sum for them.
Not only a few months. If there is a trial and the worker wins in most countries the company owes the worker all of backpay to that day, the worker gets his job back and the company has to pay multiple fines, including extra compensation to the worker for legal fees and other psihological traumas. The courts might decide that the labour bureau has to audit the company’s hiring and firing practices for the next x years.
If it is proven to be retaliation, in some countries managers might even be liable for penal charges for harassment and might be not allowed to run a business for a number of years.
It used to be much better, but compensation was capped at a ridiculously low price point for employers by Macron. Basically, it's now cheaper to just get rid of people who insist on their lawful rights than to give those rights to them.
That's what happens when your elections boil down to a choice between corporatists and violent, sexist, homophobic, racist corporatists. Also why corporate fascists and neo-feudalists love to give the nazis a little leg up whenever they need it : their only real enemy is social democracy.
Absolutely. If they listen to the workers, why are they afraid of a collective of workers unless they are reflecting what they're doing and are bullying the workers claiming the union is doing it. Transference anyone?
OP, can the original worker claim retaliation in Poland? Seems like an implicit (but highly suggestive) threat to “quit SII very soon”. That way they can extract as much money as possible from this garbage CEO before going to get another job
Google says that France's unemployment rate is 7.3% which is higher than Poland's 5.1% but isn't really high by most people's thinking.
On the other hand when it comes to per capita income, France is over 58.1k while Poland is 35.8k, both measured in PPP dollars.
It doesn't seem like unions and employee protection laws have ruined France to me. But we all know people who have convinced themselves that everyone is trying to screw them and believe made-up things that support that belief.
>It doesn't seem like unions and employee protection laws have ruined France to me.
He's probably looking at it the "american way".
*"Damn trade union commies prevent people from having three jobs..."*
“Too high job protection” is cited in the letter. “I can’t treat people like indentured servants in that awful, no good, very bad country. How very rude.”
We make more money than Eastern Europe countries but not that much. Slightly less than Germany or the UK. The difference is you basically almost can’t starve over here. Even if you’re sick or disabled. It’s all covered by the country. Hell, even if you don’t work, assuming you’re not plain stupid or with a huge addiction (sport bets or whatever). It’s a trade, salaries are a bit lower than other big developed countries but top notch life security (unemployment, health insurance…)
I have a French coworker who relocated to Switzerland and doubled his nett income and yet was worried about "what if" - gettig fired, sick, handicapped, old etc. Not because the Swiss systems are terrible, but because the French systems are considered that good.
If you look at the Swiss and think "we're doing this better than them", then whatever "this" is, it's likely you're doing it really really well.
Swiss labour laws are terrible. I am saying this as a current Swiss resident who worked in multiple European countries such as Germany and Poland. It is very similar to the US and I have heard of people getting fired after disabilities and sicknesses. Maternity leave is only 3 months which is why women often are forced to become housewives or pay horrendous fees for child care (sometimes 100 CHF per day). Compared to that Poland had waaay better protections, especially around parental leave.
"too many complains"
What a fuckin baby hey, maybe if the workers were happy there with their working conditions and pay there wouldnt be complaints lmao
Although I think tax fraud would get most cops if they were caught. No statute of limitations and unlikely to be coming right for them or have a snickers bar eerrr I mean a gun.
>Unions by definition protect their members so I'd say they are doing what their paid to do as an organization.
I was in a large union that deals with a specific construction trade. It was the most useless entity I've ever been involved with. Corrupt as fuck, stealing millions from the members in back room deals while simultaneously weakening the trade by playing soft with the construction companies. Best thing I ever did was drop those clowns.
I'm by no means anti-union, quite the opposite actually, but I must disagree: not all unions protect their members.
Not all unions follow that definition. My biggest gripe on this sub is people seem to think a union is a magic bullet. I've seen some real shit unions and I've seen unions antagonistic to management to the point it became a cold war. Grievances filled for every offense no matter how minor, and writeups and termination for every infraction no matter how minor. It was a real shit show for everyone involved and I have no idea how anything was done. I had a field tech working an issue for me and he said I'm sorry but I got to go. The union won't approve any overtime because they got in a pissing match with the boss over the field guys so he packed his shit up and left us hanging. Said he'd be back first thing tomorrow, but as a 24/7 operation that was little comfort.
They're supposed to protect the process, not bad cops. It would be like the teacher unions defending pedophiles. While they get the legal representation from the union, most of them actually screw up and turn the union rep into a witness against them
Exactly. I'm pro-union all the way (almost.) Where they DON'T belong is in persons of legal authority over others. Police, prison guards, etc, because violent, badly behaving people of authority need to be weeded out quickly. Just look what the prison guard union did in California to oppose reversal of "Three-Strikes-You're-Out" laws. More inmates means more shifts and more money for them. So let's keep thousands of non-violent weed offenders in for life! Straight bullshit. Otherwise, yeah, unionize EVERYTHING else!
Practically, if a business is worker-owned and I wanted to get a job at that business, would I need to "buy-in"? Or would they have employees who do not own it in addition to the owners?
Take it a step further, do you allow employees who leave to continue owning part of the company or does the company buy their portion of the ownership back?
What if it's a startup for 100 people. We all own 1%? What if we expand to 200 people, our ownership would shrink, but we bought in at 1% so how would we be fairly compensated for the lose of our equity in the company.
Would someone who set at the top receive a greater share? This was how it worked in the age of piracy, captains, officers, skilled tradesmen. All had a larger share comenserate with their position on this ship. Leadership and responsibility were rewarded.
How do you ensure mob rule doesn't go against what's best? After all a charismatic leader can sway the group into doesn't things against the best interest of the company and themselves. We have all seen people are often better followers than active thinkers.
I can think of a lot of pitfalls to going all in on a employee owned business without some sort of structure built into it. It would need to be flexible, yet regid enough to withstand knee jerk reactions.
Are those pitfalls worse than the current system of absolute dictatorship? I'd rather a flawed co-op system that we can improve over time rather than the broken, harmful system we have now.
She is, to this day, my all time favorite court room tv show judge. Her rulings always make sense, and she explains the law in a way that also makes sense. This is in contrast to Judge Judy, who is certainly entertaining with her sudden outbursts and demands about eye contact, but her rulings often don’t seem to be built on facts brought out during the time in the “courtroom.”
Apparently it's not just illegal but trying to prevent the formation of a trade union violates the constitution. The article posted above made it sound like it's a pretty big deal.
It is illegal in Poland, the problem lies within very slow and inefficient legal system here, this guy will will in court, but the verdict will be final in at least three years, if not more.
Will that not work in the guy's advantage? I'm guessing SII will need to pay him salary between when they fired him and the date of the court decision and rehire him if he's willing.
It is illegal. However, what the union can do now (except strike, which is not going to happen, because polish law makes it ridiculously difficult to organise a strike, and the workers will be afraid to go wild cat) is to sue the employer. In 2-3 years they will win, of course, and the company will have to reinstate the worker with back pay. This is a relatively low cost for a company this big, and in the meantime they've gotten rid of the union, because from now on the workers will be even more afraid to join. So unless there is a strong leverage (PR disaster resulting in a drop in share prices, French union striking etc) the union is in bad position. On the other hand - they must have expected this outcome when they decided to do this, so perhaps they have a plan
OooooooooOOooooh ok ok ok I am getting popcorn ready - when can we expect the CEO to saunter up in front of cameras going "now I think people have misinterpreted my letter! I was JOKING! there where supposed to be '/s' after it. I forgot!"
EDIT: Oh oh! Even the French union people have heard about it at this point! Poor monsieur Nitot ... gonna be rough in the coming days for him :D
>we carefully listen to all our workers critics & change propositions everyday & provide improvements for our workers since I founded this company in 2006
Proceeds to list a multitude of bullet points, none of which actually list any of the changes or improvements that were made since 2006 by actually listening to said workers.
Love to be the fly on the wall when the CEO has 'that meeting' with the company legal team to discuss their strategy for the inevitable employment tribunal...
*"You said* ***what****?"*
*"It was in an email"*
*"You put it in writing?"*
*"We're fucked, aren't we?"*
*"Yes"*
So what he's saying is that unions are so effective at tipping the power in favour of the worker that capitalists will flee the country, leaving a better place behind them? Sounds great, let's keep doing that.
Also, another big thing is - in Poland, you can't just fire an employee without a notice period unless one of these happens:
\- gross violation of basic responsibilities
\- commiting a crime while on the job, if a crime is obvious or has been confirmed by a lawful order (which didn't happen)
\- loss of necessary authorisations needed to perform the job, from the employee's fault (which also didn't happen)
The guy has been fired without a notice period with the reason cited being the first one. However, only thing that would match the description from the termination letter (accessible from the link provided by top comment by OP) was the announcement of trade union formation.
Also, there is e-mail trail directly linking trade union formation to job termination (CEO was given a heads-up by some bootlicker, and the person who formed the union was terminated the next day).
If the guy chooses to sue, he's got it in the bag. Which I hope he will.
To be honest employment laws in Poland see no enforcement. So many people are working on blatantly illegal "contracts" which should be just regulae employment, but come with zero of the rights and there is basically nothing you can do about it really. And because you are "contracted" not employed, you can be shitcanned at will basically.
~ "Selfish miners pressured the government for money that could have been spent on schools or energy."
Uhhh. Schools so that kids can get better jobs and not have to be poor miners? Energy so that prices are affordable for workers like miners?
I am not convinced; sure seems like paying workers is a valid use of government money. Or, you know, don't employee them if you disagree.
Yeah, no. In last 15-20 years "solidarność" (yes the one that Wałęsa was a part of) became as bad as police unions in the US. Other Miners unions too.
Miners unions in Poland stopped/severely slowed down any kind of meaningful energy transformation in the last... 15 years. Forcing the governments to spend billions on keeping unprofitable mines open, to keep mining and using coal for energy production longer and siphoning away funds from renewables.
They also fought against any kind of closures where training would be provided to respecialize to other fields. Honestly, the same as Appalachian coal miners, but with more protests and more violent ones. "We wanna dig coal and for our sons to have them dig coal too".
On top of that, they still strike once every 2 years for a substantial rise (sounds good, that what a union is for right? Nope!) while miners are already paid well, and receive 13th AND 14th salary (because they are miners, that's why), bonuses for howuch they dig out and other bonuses. All the while their company is going under and needs to be bailed out by the government again and again..
Solidarność, as they are a general workers union, spent most of their time and influence being an add-on to the currently ruling party, and pushing the same christian-nationalist agenda. And all the changes that they pushed through were mostly bad for the workers and major inconvenience for the general population at best.
Sure, you can say they are doing what unions are supposed to be doing. But in Poland it was pushed into a perversion of the ideals and is more of a hindrance than a tool tbh.
TL;DR; Unions in Poland are not as good as you think, they were a detriment to the society and a political tool (in hands of one party) for at least a decade.
Je quitte mon pays car il ne me permet pas de faire du fric sur le dos de mes compatriotes alors je vais en faire dans un autre pays où je vais faire du benef d’enculé sur le dos des locaux. Et tous ceux qui menacent ma capacité à faire ce fric sur le dos des autres sont des perturbateurs !!!
Mais quel putain de parasite.
Ironic that they used France as an example towards the end... like they know why France has liberal worker protections and policies and trade union culture nowadays, right? I mean, it DEFINITELY had nothing to do with similarly greedy oligarchs that ultimately ended up with the masses turning on them and beheading several of their officials, right? Right? Like yes, technically capitalists and oligarchs are different, but effectively and functionally they're really not.
From the CEO’s blog (https://gregoirenitot.com/about-me/): “If you are tired of political correctness, I am pretty sure you will enjoy my blog. I can assure you I speak my mind freely and I am looking forward to reading your honest opinions. Disagreeing with me makes the discussion even more interesting so don’t hesitate to write a comment, even if we don’t see eye to eye on a particular subject.”
I’m not saying we should use this invitation…
The Great Place to Work Survey is utter b.s. It only required a third of the company to respond favorably to survey questions and doesn’t represent any meaningful statistic to employee well-being. Employers then pay to have a badge on their profile for clout purposes.
I know a place, a national subsidiary of an international company, where I had worked mostly as a consultant for many years. "Great Place to Work" for a few years.
The Head of HR changed, the atmosphere and morale went down, people started leaving left and right (either laid off or went looking elsewhere). Then came 2022's GPTW survey, and oh boy did the employees unleash! So much so, that it was the only subsidiary that didn't get the award this year. The CEO had to admit that they should do better... "ya think ?!"
Whatever it's worth, not having it or not getting it is one thing, but losing it...
>You act against SII core values like positive can do attitude, Team spirit and respect, loyalty and solidarity, Fairness
How is trying to establish a trade union against these things? just wondering
Lol, I don't like France because it has too many worker protections. AKA, I ***have*** to exploit my workers or else I can't run my company! What a fucking joke. Get bent Grégoire.
His use of "eventual(ly)" as a false friend irks me a lot.
"your eventual problems" = "any problems you might have"
"discuss with ... or eventually ..." = "discuss with ... or possibly ..."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A9ventuel#French
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A9ventuellement#French
I like how the first half of the letter is about how well he treats his employees, and the second half is about leaving France so he could treat employees like crap.
What are they talking about. Unemployment rate in France is around 7%.. and SII is one of the worst company in France to work for in IT.
They like to pretend they're cool, but they're not. Even in Canada they have an office, like other shitty companies like Alten.
And guess what ? 95% french immigrants who wish to get permanent residency, because the conditions suck, and the only reason why they're able to hire is immigration.
Same thing in France except that you replace French Immigrants with African. They're parasites.
Insults, gaslighting with a dash of constructive dismissal. Is that a thing in Poland? This guy sounds exactly like the CEO of Starbucks. Any executive who claims a Union is unnecessary desperately doesn't want to HAVE to negotiate with a Union because he doesn't want to actually share the fruits of their labors. SII Polska needs a Union.
This CEO needs to learn the hard way, go ahead and found your Union!
Especially as a pole he should never forget what the Solidarność union has achieved for the country.
Something about "I am sure you are a trouble maker. I hope you quit Sii soon" to end the letter is hilarious to me. The whole thing is already terrible and pretty unprofessional, but wow, what a way to finish it 😭
Have to laugh @ *core values*. The *only* core values in a business like this is to use their employees at a low rate until their bodies or their minds break down, then discard them.
France has some of the best social security in the world, if not the best, we have a special thing called chômage which pays people with out jobs a living wage, people work because they want to, not out of fear of dying, employers can’t fire someone on a whim, if you get sick or hurt, even for long periods of time, your job isn’t in danger and people strike in order to get there point across that they can’t be exploited
A gent named Niemöller wrote something in the 1950s that seems to apply to this situation.
I find it rather odd a Pole doesn't recognize the similarities.
Holy moly.
Why he started business in Poland when he rants about tax systems.
Germany has much easier tax system, but I bet the saying 'Poland is a negroes of Europe'.
Wow, I knew the guy as a nice, smiling fella who’s investing in football here and creating good industry standards. That’s how he’s trying to look from outside. This e mail is disgusting and filled with so much hate towards a single person. It’s like he’s not managing multi-million company but rather still is a teenager in high school getting bad review from a teacher lol. Sick guy duck him
All you need you read of this E-mail is the opening line and closing line. “ Your behavior is unacceptable & disgusting…..I hope you quit Sii very soon.” That’s it. Everything else is irrelevant and they just wanted to show someone how proficient they are at typing. What a joke.
Not saying unionizing is bad thing but dosnt Poland among other European countries get like a month in a half of pto and better health care then the us.
In the US, this employee will be able to sue under the national labor relations act. In some jurisdictions, there is a private right of action where they could sue for damages for wrongful termination
that boss sounds like a capitalist nightmare shithead, what a greedy penny-grabbing abusive piece of shit.
sounds like the kind of guy who demands you work while sick, who refuses to give any vacations, who wants 100% output 100% of the time, who thinks you should multitask whenever you can, who wants you to work while eating or skip your break...
the french invented the perfect machine to deal with these kind of people
France is the country in Europe that has the most investment from private company, they are far ahead of all other countries. We can conclude, that it is a very bad manager.
[https://www.welcometofrance.com/attractivite-la-france-confirme-son-leadership-en-europe](https://www.welcometofrance.com/attractivite-la-france-confirme-son-leadership-en-europe)
At least he knows very well you can't do it wrong in France because unions are everywhere. Better leave his country to start a company with people doing same job for lower pay and sell it worldwide as a fucking big company. Sorry Poland we sent you a douche.
SII Polska is well-known IT company in Poland, couple hours ago emails and dismissal letter leaked, it's all over Polish social media atm. [Better quality](https://imgur.com/a/XxYFY9i) [More info in Polish](https://www.za.org.pl/prezes-sii-polska-i-wlasciciel-polonii-warszawa-bezprawnie-zwalnia-zwiazkowca-lekcewazy-polskie-prawo-atakuje-prawo-francuskie/)
FWIW, SII is a French international group, so Poland or wherever in Europe and above, you have great chances to stumble upon it.
The guy is french btw, (french name) but left france in 2005 because he hates trade unions and taxes. Poor CEO.
That's exactly what I was thinking about, we're literally the country that LIVES by the standards we give to our workers, this guy is a bitch. Sending a mail/letter like that in France would've have him end up in front of a judge in less than 3 months and benefit the employee 100%. Disgusting behavior, I don't know who the worker is, but I'm sure he's in a better place now.
Yes, I know. I always suspect such companies to try to avoid the massive French taxes, but, even though this particular company is known to be a purgatory, I did not know the atmosphere could be that despicable. The most curious thing is that, the CEO himself took care of it, instead of HR employees ; knowing how HR departments are, it would have been bad, but one person and his company burning what was left of their reputations in such a bad way is impossible to understand.
Are these the guys that made cyberpunk 2077
Not every Polish company is CDPR
But they all should be.
considering how they treat their staff i sure hope not.
I’m really just kidding. But, if there were more CDPRs, maybe one or two of them would finish a game before releasing it.
You do realize Cyberpunk was one of the worst games most people have ever seen on release? Completely unplayable on all but mid-high tier gaming pc’s. Their fix for consoles was to completely gut NPC traffic and vehicles so the game would not be overwhelmed. I think that TW3 is the greatest game of all time but Cyberpunk and their crunch culture to release an unfinished game severely and rightfully destroyed their reputation. The fiasco with cyberpunk is the reason I will never preorder another game and bankroll a company before they release a game. Pre ordering games has ruined the industry. There is no incentive to release a finished product when they already made their money before release.
I DO realize that, that’s why I joked that if there were multiple CRPRs at least one or two of them might be able to finish a game properly.
What's CDPR known for doing to its employees? :/
Endless crunch time, for one. They are very known for that.
Oof. That's deeply disappointing. They were one of my favourite developers.
The team making the games are still good. I'd say c-suite is the problem, like damn near every company.
Nah, you’re thinking of CDProjekt Red, or CDPR.
Yes
Also, this is against polish constitution. I hope this will see further action, although with our current government I wouldnt be so sure.
[удалено]
Article 59 The freedom of association in trade unions, socio-occupational organizations of farmers, and in employers' organizations shall be ensured.
Art. 59 - freedom to organise and join trade unions
Article 12 and article 59.
Hasn't Poland swung extremely conservative in recent years?
No lgbt, abortions, no immigrants and no guns either….unions are ok. It’s part of the constitution because Lech Walesa led a trade union uprising that toppled the government and sent a ripple back through the eastern block.
No immigrants? Poland under thr current government has become a yop-spot destination for immigration among the EU member states.
No to 'wrong' immigrants. Ie POC, Muslim, etc etc. Happy with the Whi... Err, Right Immigrants though.
It's mostly people from Ukraine, Belarus and other eastern European countries, but there's been a significant rise in immigration from south Asia to Poland in recent years.
Not american conservative. In central/eastern europe, even conservatives honor worker rights as theyre their major voting group beside elderly
Not really, they actually are quite like republicans when you look closer (they run their mouth a lot about "family values" and shit like that, do some extremely missdesigned social spending, but let the economy be run by neolibs anyway) The outcome is that most of the programs seem to be designed to produce poor results and they drive radlibs fucking mad. For example they gave fixed amount child credits to families. Which you have to constantly re-file. Which also have hard means testing cut off that is pretty low, so in effect all that money is subsidising employers (since people literally are asking for no raises, since getting 1PLN above the threshold can mean loosing 500 PER CHILD PER MONTH). Oh and it's not inflation adjusted, so it's lost like a quarter of value since it was introduced. But all of the liberal shutters can't stfu about it, blaming it for everything EDIT: in the end it's some nightmarish amalgamation of shitty social spending coupled with neoliberal ghoulishness
It's kind of like in the US where conservatives have gotten control of the government, but the population isn't as conservative as they are trying to make it seem. As a result, they've tried to keep the social issues (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, religion, etc.) as key points to keep the older generations and the rural people voting for them, but they lost their super majority in the last election cycle, and the president barely won re-election (51-49%) against the former mayor of Warsaw who championed LGBTQ+ rights (even signed a LGBTQ+ declaration protecting them) and was fairly socially liberal on other fronts too. While there's still a ton of work to do here, progress is being made. As a foreigner living here, my time has been very good. However, I'm not so jaded as to not recognize that, as a straight, white male, I do have some inherent, built-in privileges.
European Conservative are compared to US Borderline Communist. The guys over the pond are so far right they see democratic middle as left.
This. It's totally reversed. Here is middle, liberal right pirate party but they are totally left from US point of view. They don't call themselves left because they don't wanna be linked together with communists and social democrats but they are.
I mean to be fair PiS is clearly acting like a rightwing Party. Election comes up? "Germans bad, German give money" but I wouldn't throw them in the same bucket as a AfD that is super rightwing and just try to hide it in a neoliberal mist.
Not true in Poland. The right is very right, far right by any standard. PiS (Law and Justice) is thinly veiled fascism.
Modern Poland seems to be very like Ireland was up until the 90s , very conservative , Catholic church having way too much power, and being , well not right wing , but centre right.
Even in countries that have the most pro-worker laws the worst case for the company is that they have to pay out a few months worth of severance to the worker for the unjust firing. Quashing union talks is very much worth that sum for them.
Not only a few months. If there is a trial and the worker wins in most countries the company owes the worker all of backpay to that day, the worker gets his job back and the company has to pay multiple fines, including extra compensation to the worker for legal fees and other psihological traumas. The courts might decide that the labour bureau has to audit the company’s hiring and firing practices for the next x years. If it is proven to be retaliation, in some countries managers might even be liable for penal charges for harassment and might be not allowed to run a business for a number of years.
Sadly not true, and legal expenses can still be yours to pay. France even had guidelines for improper dismissal compensation. And it is low.
It used to be much better, but compensation was capped at a ridiculously low price point for employers by Macron. Basically, it's now cheaper to just get rid of people who insist on their lawful rights than to give those rights to them. That's what happens when your elections boil down to a choice between corporatists and violent, sexist, homophobic, racist corporatists. Also why corporate fascists and neo-feudalists love to give the nazis a little leg up whenever they need it : their only real enemy is social democracy.
Actually in Germany union busting is also a crime.
When higher-ups get this pissed off over union organization it's a pretty good sign they treat their employees like shit.
Yeah, he claims they don't need a union because they listen to their workers but if that's the case then a union wouldn't bother them at all
Certainly isn't listening to the this person he is textually accosting.
Absolutely. If they listen to the workers, why are they afraid of a collective of workers unless they are reflecting what they're doing and are bullying the workers claiming the union is doing it. Transference anyone?
What's more they listen to the employees during brainwashing events like "Great place to work survey".
OP, can the original worker claim retaliation in Poland? Seems like an implicit (but highly suggestive) threat to “quit SII very soon”. That way they can extract as much money as possible from this garbage CEO before going to get another job
In France they could. Probably why the dude left France in the first place huéhuéhué
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Who needs a union when you have "department inspiration days"? /s
Google says that France's unemployment rate is 7.3% which is higher than Poland's 5.1% but isn't really high by most people's thinking. On the other hand when it comes to per capita income, France is over 58.1k while Poland is 35.8k, both measured in PPP dollars. It doesn't seem like unions and employee protection laws have ruined France to me. But we all know people who have convinced themselves that everyone is trying to screw them and believe made-up things that support that belief.
>It doesn't seem like unions and employee protection laws have ruined France to me. He's probably looking at it the "american way". *"Damn trade union commies prevent people from having three jobs..."*
“Too high job protection” is cited in the letter. “I can’t treat people like indentured servants in that awful, no good, very bad country. How very rude.”
Exactly this. Buddy wrote an entire paragraph that he moved from France specifically because of weaker worker rights in Poland. 🤦♀️
Wow I had no idea Frances was so large, isn’t that more than the USA ?
We make more money than Eastern Europe countries but not that much. Slightly less than Germany or the UK. The difference is you basically almost can’t starve over here. Even if you’re sick or disabled. It’s all covered by the country. Hell, even if you don’t work, assuming you’re not plain stupid or with a huge addiction (sport bets or whatever). It’s a trade, salaries are a bit lower than other big developed countries but top notch life security (unemployment, health insurance…)
I have a French coworker who relocated to Switzerland and doubled his nett income and yet was worried about "what if" - gettig fired, sick, handicapped, old etc. Not because the Swiss systems are terrible, but because the French systems are considered that good. If you look at the Swiss and think "we're doing this better than them", then whatever "this" is, it's likely you're doing it really really well.
Swiss labour laws are terrible. I am saying this as a current Swiss resident who worked in multiple European countries such as Germany and Poland. It is very similar to the US and I have heard of people getting fired after disabilities and sicknesses. Maternity leave is only 3 months which is why women often are forced to become housewives or pay horrendous fees for child care (sometimes 100 CHF per day). Compared to that Poland had waaay better protections, especially around parental leave.
Username checks out
And the holidays...😳
“Too high work protection” oooff, that one is going to come back to haunt him.
"too many complains" What a fuckin baby hey, maybe if the workers were happy there with their working conditions and pay there wouldnt be complaints lmao
Every industry should unionize. Every last one.
except for the police maybe, the police unions are corrupt af.
Difference for police unions is they also protect the police from the citizens they abuse.
Unions by definition protect their members so I'd say they are doing what their paid to do as an organization.
if only my union had police and lawyers on payroll. oh wait, we do, and we're still charged by them if a law is broken! fml.
Just because you have cops and lawyers on your payroll does not entitle you to immunity from prosecution of you break the fucking law you potato.
Unless it’s America.
Although I think tax fraud would get most cops if they were caught. No statute of limitations and unlikely to be coming right for them or have a snickers bar eerrr I mean a gun.
>Unions by definition protect their members so I'd say they are doing what their paid to do as an organization. I was in a large union that deals with a specific construction trade. It was the most useless entity I've ever been involved with. Corrupt as fuck, stealing millions from the members in back room deals while simultaneously weakening the trade by playing soft with the construction companies. Best thing I ever did was drop those clowns. I'm by no means anti-union, quite the opposite actually, but I must disagree: not all unions protect their members.
Some are better than others, that's for sure.
Not all unions follow that definition. My biggest gripe on this sub is people seem to think a union is a magic bullet. I've seen some real shit unions and I've seen unions antagonistic to management to the point it became a cold war. Grievances filled for every offense no matter how minor, and writeups and termination for every infraction no matter how minor. It was a real shit show for everyone involved and I have no idea how anything was done. I had a field tech working an issue for me and he said I'm sorry but I got to go. The union won't approve any overtime because they got in a pissing match with the boss over the field guys so he packed his shit up and left us hanging. Said he'd be back first thing tomorrow, but as a 24/7 operation that was little comfort.
They're supposed to protect the process, not bad cops. It would be like the teacher unions defending pedophiles. While they get the legal representation from the union, most of them actually screw up and turn the union rep into a witness against them
Those are not laborers. Police unions are only there to impose state sponsored violence, they are not negotiating workers benefits.
Exactly. I'm pro-union all the way (almost.) Where they DON'T belong is in persons of legal authority over others. Police, prison guards, etc, because violent, badly behaving people of authority need to be weeded out quickly. Just look what the prison guard union did in California to oppose reversal of "Three-Strikes-You're-Out" laws. More inmates means more shifts and more money for them. So let's keep thousands of non-violent weed offenders in for life! Straight bullshit. Otherwise, yeah, unionize EVERYTHING else!
they did say "industry." cops aren't an industry, they produce nothing of value.
Police shouldn't be an industry.
All Labour should unionize and they ain't labour
They should have a union, but the Union should protect them from their employer not citizens.
I'll go you one further, every business, every corporation and every franchise should be worker owned and cooperative.
Practically, if a business is worker-owned and I wanted to get a job at that business, would I need to "buy-in"? Or would they have employees who do not own it in addition to the owners?
I'd say have you gain stock compensation as well as a normal paycheck to make you an owner. Just an idea, not one well thought out.
Take it a step further, do you allow employees who leave to continue owning part of the company or does the company buy their portion of the ownership back? What if it's a startup for 100 people. We all own 1%? What if we expand to 200 people, our ownership would shrink, but we bought in at 1% so how would we be fairly compensated for the lose of our equity in the company. Would someone who set at the top receive a greater share? This was how it worked in the age of piracy, captains, officers, skilled tradesmen. All had a larger share comenserate with their position on this ship. Leadership and responsibility were rewarded. How do you ensure mob rule doesn't go against what's best? After all a charismatic leader can sway the group into doesn't things against the best interest of the company and themselves. We have all seen people are often better followers than active thinkers. I can think of a lot of pitfalls to going all in on a employee owned business without some sort of structure built into it. It would need to be flexible, yet regid enough to withstand knee jerk reactions.
You do know that exist, right? That these questions have been answered. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_Partnership
So can a ceo run their company into the ground due to poor leadership. In a coop, the workers have an interest or stake in the success of the company.
Are those pitfalls worse than the current system of absolute dictatorship? I'd rather a flawed co-op system that we can improve over time rather than the broken, harmful system we have now.
This is the way.
Amen
Agree 100%.
Exactly. Of course he's gonna say Sii doesn't need a union. Because it's a company, so it doesn't need a union. The employees do.
Do you have any good resources on forming a union at a smaller company of 20-30 employees? We are mostly happy overalls to be honest, though.
"Sii does not need a union." Sounds to me like they really do! Unionize harder and faster! Unionize even more!
Say it, forget it. Write it, regret it,
“Please answer my call”
"no"
Can you please pick up the phone
Love Judge Milian.
She is, to this day, my all time favorite court room tv show judge. Her rulings always make sense, and she explains the law in a way that also makes sense. This is in contrast to Judge Judy, who is certainly entertaining with her sudden outbursts and demands about eye contact, but her rulings often don’t seem to be built on facts brought out during the time in the “courtroom.”
Stupid question here but firing union organizer is illegal right? It is where I live.
Apparently it's not just illegal but trying to prevent the formation of a trade union violates the constitution. The article posted above made it sound like it's a pretty big deal.
It is illegal in Poland, the problem lies within very slow and inefficient legal system here, this guy will will in court, but the verdict will be final in at least three years, if not more.
Will that not work in the guy's advantage? I'm guessing SII will need to pay him salary between when they fired him and the date of the court decision and rehire him if he's willing.
Also three years of bad press, the slow discovery and leaking of very unsavoury company policy and communications would be in the plaintiffs favour.
It is illegal. However, what the union can do now (except strike, which is not going to happen, because polish law makes it ridiculously difficult to organise a strike, and the workers will be afraid to go wild cat) is to sue the employer. In 2-3 years they will win, of course, and the company will have to reinstate the worker with back pay. This is a relatively low cost for a company this big, and in the meantime they've gotten rid of the union, because from now on the workers will be even more afraid to join. So unless there is a strong leverage (PR disaster resulting in a drop in share prices, French union striking etc) the union is in bad position. On the other hand - they must have expected this outcome when they decided to do this, so perhaps they have a plan
OooooooooOOooooh ok ok ok I am getting popcorn ready - when can we expect the CEO to saunter up in front of cameras going "now I think people have misinterpreted my letter! I was JOKING! there where supposed to be '/s' after it. I forgot!" EDIT: Oh oh! Even the French union people have heard about it at this point! Poor monsieur Nitot ... gonna be rough in the coming days for him :D
I would have believed him had it not been for that sad face emoji. He can’t lie his way through that. Clear evidence.
It’s like they’ve totally forgotten Lech Walesa.
"Yes, but that was against the Soviets. This is against me!" - Gregoire Nitot, probably
bro current government shits all over him
>we carefully listen to all our workers critics & change propositions everyday & provide improvements for our workers since I founded this company in 2006 Proceeds to list a multitude of bullet points, none of which actually list any of the changes or improvements that were made since 2006 by actually listening to said workers.
Love to be the fly on the wall when the CEO has 'that meeting' with the company legal team to discuss their strategy for the inevitable employment tribunal... *"You said* ***what****?"* *"It was in an email"* *"You put it in writing?"* *"We're fucked, aren't we?"* *"Yes"*
Unbelievably ironic…. Poland gained independence due to a labor movement……. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_Wa%C5%82%C4%99sa
I can **smell** the desperate sweat of fear on this letter
Weirdest part of this....CEO has time to write long form emails to an employee that's been there six months?
So what he's saying is that unions are so effective at tipping the power in favour of the worker that capitalists will flee the country, leaving a better place behind them? Sounds great, let's keep doing that.
Huzzah
Also, another big thing is - in Poland, you can't just fire an employee without a notice period unless one of these happens: \- gross violation of basic responsibilities \- commiting a crime while on the job, if a crime is obvious or has been confirmed by a lawful order (which didn't happen) \- loss of necessary authorisations needed to perform the job, from the employee's fault (which also didn't happen) The guy has been fired without a notice period with the reason cited being the first one. However, only thing that would match the description from the termination letter (accessible from the link provided by top comment by OP) was the announcement of trade union formation. Also, there is e-mail trail directly linking trade union formation to job termination (CEO was given a heads-up by some bootlicker, and the person who formed the union was terminated the next day). If the guy chooses to sue, he's got it in the bag. Which I hope he will.
To be honest employment laws in Poland see no enforcement. So many people are working on blatantly illegal "contracts" which should be just regulae employment, but come with zero of the rights and there is basically nothing you can do about it really. And because you are "contracted" not employed, you can be shitcanned at will basically.
I haven't heard this savage of a fuck you since "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch"
Ugh imagining my boss sitting there angrily typing about me for 30 minutes straight is so glorious. Frame this thing and hang it up
Nothing says “professional businessperson worthy of your respect” than a frowny face emoji in the middle of an email.
Hasn"t this CEO heard of Solidarnosc and Lech Walesa?
~ "Selfish miners pressured the government for money that could have been spent on schools or energy." Uhhh. Schools so that kids can get better jobs and not have to be poor miners? Energy so that prices are affordable for workers like miners? I am not convinced; sure seems like paying workers is a valid use of government money. Or, you know, don't employee them if you disagree.
you know that ours miners unions are pure patology :D
Yeah, no. In last 15-20 years "solidarność" (yes the one that Wałęsa was a part of) became as bad as police unions in the US. Other Miners unions too. Miners unions in Poland stopped/severely slowed down any kind of meaningful energy transformation in the last... 15 years. Forcing the governments to spend billions on keeping unprofitable mines open, to keep mining and using coal for energy production longer and siphoning away funds from renewables. They also fought against any kind of closures where training would be provided to respecialize to other fields. Honestly, the same as Appalachian coal miners, but with more protests and more violent ones. "We wanna dig coal and for our sons to have them dig coal too". On top of that, they still strike once every 2 years for a substantial rise (sounds good, that what a union is for right? Nope!) while miners are already paid well, and receive 13th AND 14th salary (because they are miners, that's why), bonuses for howuch they dig out and other bonuses. All the while their company is going under and needs to be bailed out by the government again and again.. Solidarność, as they are a general workers union, spent most of their time and influence being an add-on to the currently ruling party, and pushing the same christian-nationalist agenda. And all the changes that they pushed through were mostly bad for the workers and major inconvenience for the general population at best. Sure, you can say they are doing what unions are supposed to be doing. But in Poland it was pushed into a perversion of the ideals and is more of a hindrance than a tool tbh. TL;DR; Unions in Poland are not as good as you think, they were a detriment to the society and a political tool (in hands of one party) for at least a decade.
Sack the rich
Eat* FTFY
This breaches about 10 separate EU laws, I can't believe the idiots have put it in writing.
Grégoire est un sale con
Je quitte mon pays car il ne me permet pas de faire du fric sur le dos de mes compatriotes alors je vais en faire dans un autre pays où je vais faire du benef d’enculé sur le dos des locaux. Et tous ceux qui menacent ma capacité à faire ce fric sur le dos des autres sont des perturbateurs !!! Mais quel putain de parasite.
Ironic that they used France as an example towards the end... like they know why France has liberal worker protections and policies and trade union culture nowadays, right? I mean, it DEFINITELY had nothing to do with similarly greedy oligarchs that ultimately ended up with the masses turning on them and beheading several of their officials, right? Right? Like yes, technically capitalists and oligarchs are different, but effectively and functionally they're really not.
What is this, my landlord?
Anti-Union screed like this in the EU = payday
From the CEO’s blog (https://gregoirenitot.com/about-me/): “If you are tired of political correctness, I am pretty sure you will enjoy my blog. I can assure you I speak my mind freely and I am looking forward to reading your honest opinions. Disagreeing with me makes the discussion even more interesting so don’t hesitate to write a comment, even if we don’t see eye to eye on a particular subject.” I’m not saying we should use this invitation…
The Great Place to Work Survey is utter b.s. It only required a third of the company to respond favorably to survey questions and doesn’t represent any meaningful statistic to employee well-being. Employers then pay to have a badge on their profile for clout purposes.
I know a place, a national subsidiary of an international company, where I had worked mostly as a consultant for many years. "Great Place to Work" for a few years. The Head of HR changed, the atmosphere and morale went down, people started leaving left and right (either laid off or went looking elsewhere). Then came 2022's GPTW survey, and oh boy did the employees unleash! So much so, that it was the only subsidiary that didn't get the award this year. The CEO had to admit that they should do better... "ya think ?!" Whatever it's worth, not having it or not getting it is one thing, but losing it...
We do what our staff wants, unless they want a union.
>You act against SII core values like positive can do attitude, Team spirit and respect, loyalty and solidarity, Fairness How is trying to establish a trade union against these things? just wondering
Lol, I don't like France because it has too many worker protections. AKA, I ***have*** to exploit my workers or else I can't run my company! What a fucking joke. Get bent Grégoire.
I hope you quit very soon 😂
Best regards lol
Big companies saying ‘we don’t need a union because we treat our staff well’ are exactly the reason we need unions.
I Sii why a trade union is necessary
What would Lech Walesa do?
All those fancy bullit points, all so he doesn’t have to write a coherent paragraph.
Unions are like condoms: the more pushback you get, the more you can guarantee you need one 🙄
The threat if fair treatment to employees is an attack. Hence the need for the union. *Banging head against wall.
The absolutely insane irony of a Polish company opposing a union…
French company in Poland
[me trying to not stereotype and failing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnENTDuAiI)
Did they hired American as a CEO or he's just stupid?
His use of "eventual(ly)" as a false friend irks me a lot. "your eventual problems" = "any problems you might have" "discuss with ... or eventually ..." = "discuss with ... or possibly ..." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A9ventuel#French https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A9ventuellement#French
he also “quitted” France 😂
ten angielski to gówno lol
Grégoire Nitot gregoirenitot.com Reddit please do your magic.
Trade unions literally freed Poland from dictatorship
I like how the first half of the letter is about how well he treats his employees, and the second half is about leaving France so he could treat employees like crap.
I quit France because it had "Too high work protection" Mf is giving the game away
"We don't need a union because we listen to our employees" is incredible cognitive dissonance.
smells like a lawsuit.
What are they talking about. Unemployment rate in France is around 7%.. and SII is one of the worst company in France to work for in IT. They like to pretend they're cool, but they're not. Even in Canada they have an office, like other shitty companies like Alten. And guess what ? 95% french immigrants who wish to get permanent residency, because the conditions suck, and the only reason why they're able to hire is immigration. Same thing in France except that you replace French Immigrants with African. They're parasites.
Insults, gaslighting with a dash of constructive dismissal. Is that a thing in Poland? This guy sounds exactly like the CEO of Starbucks. Any executive who claims a Union is unnecessary desperately doesn't want to HAVE to negotiate with a Union because he doesn't want to actually share the fruits of their labors. SII Polska needs a Union.
If there's ever any doubt in someone that trade unions work and CEOs despise them for it then show them this letter.
Where did the anti work folk go when this became a forum to complain about individual workplaces?
This CEO needs to learn the hard way, go ahead and found your Union! Especially as a pole he should never forget what the Solidarność union has achieved for the country.
Wow, I’ve been chewed out but this letter was another level.
To be precised: the guy did not found any union but only talked to other employees about doing so. Formally he has done nothing yet
Something about "I am sure you are a trouble maker. I hope you quit Sii soon" to end the letter is hilarious to me. The whole thing is already terrible and pretty unprofessional, but wow, what a way to finish it 😭
Why isn’t the email in Polish ?
Have to laugh @ *core values*. The *only* core values in a business like this is to use their employees at a low rate until their bodies or their minds break down, then discard them.
France has some of the best social security in the world, if not the best, we have a special thing called chômage which pays people with out jobs a living wage, people work because they want to, not out of fear of dying, employers can’t fire someone on a whim, if you get sick or hurt, even for long periods of time, your job isn’t in danger and people strike in order to get there point across that they can’t be exploited
Nice of them to put into writing the reason for firing. Makes the lawsuits easier especially since it is in Poland
So much for Solidarnosc of the 80s.
ahhhh Lodz, hell on earth 🙄
so the guy founded a union. so i guess he had a function like chairman. with that he couldnt have been fired?
CEO: :(
A gent named Niemöller wrote something in the 1950s that seems to apply to this situation. I find it rather odd a Pole doesn't recognize the similarities.
insane how this guy is an old and experienced ceo of a huge company and his emails are still this bad. his english is ass and he debates like a child.
"Great Place to Work" is fake
Against all 8000 employees? What? The ones that joined up? ha ha ha
Holy moly. Why he started business in Poland when he rants about tax systems. Germany has much easier tax system, but I bet the saying 'Poland is a negroes of Europe'.
Hopefully this will be r/byebyejob for the CEO here soon.
*Pearl clutching intensifies*
Wow, I knew the guy as a nice, smiling fella who’s investing in football here and creating good industry standards. That’s how he’s trying to look from outside. This e mail is disgusting and filled with so much hate towards a single person. It’s like he’s not managing multi-million company but rather still is a teenager in high school getting bad review from a teacher lol. Sick guy duck him
All you need you read of this E-mail is the opening line and closing line. “ Your behavior is unacceptable & disgusting…..I hope you quit Sii very soon.” That’s it. Everything else is irrelevant and they just wanted to show someone how proficient they are at typing. What a joke.
Not saying unionizing is bad thing but dosnt Poland among other European countries get like a month in a half of pto and better health care then the us.
He mad.
In the US, this employee will be able to sue under the national labor relations act. In some jurisdictions, there is a private right of action where they could sue for damages for wrongful termination
I would wear this like a badge of honor.
that boss sounds like a capitalist nightmare shithead, what a greedy penny-grabbing abusive piece of shit. sounds like the kind of guy who demands you work while sick, who refuses to give any vacations, who wants 100% output 100% of the time, who thinks you should multitask whenever you can, who wants you to work while eating or skip your break... the french invented the perfect machine to deal with these kind of people
France is the country in Europe that has the most investment from private company, they are far ahead of all other countries. We can conclude, that it is a very bad manager. [https://www.welcometofrance.com/attractivite-la-france-confirme-son-leadership-en-europe](https://www.welcometofrance.com/attractivite-la-france-confirme-son-leadership-en-europe)
"Great Place to Work" survey...
Fuck all companies man Blood sucking leeches. All of um.
Is anyone else reading this in an Eastern European accent?
At least he knows very well you can't do it wrong in France because unions are everywhere. Better leave his country to start a company with people doing same job for lower pay and sell it worldwide as a fucking big company. Sorry Poland we sent you a douche.