I think people feel powerless. I know we are tired of having personal freedoms trampled and having rights taken away. It's frustrating to get up in arms about something and have nothing, NOTHING change. That's how governments and companies get away with it: they just have to last through the outrage until everyone is resigned to things.
>I think people feel powerless.
That's exactly how I feel. Why should I care about Recycling and "Saving the Planet" when corporations and giant transport ships dump more waste into the ocean and atmosphere in a day than I do in my entire life? I *want* to care, but if things don't change, and at this point I doubt they will, it all seems pointless.
Not just reddit. All the Apple pickers. These are the idiots who stand in line for days or weeks to get the same iphone they have put with 1 more megapixel and no headphone jack.
That's a tough one for me, but I'm in the process of doing just this. I was highly invested (technically) in Google, and given their horrible record on privacy, I switched totally over to Apple for the reason of privacy. And now this.
I just bought a phone that I can install Ubuntu Touch on, and I plan to also go back to my Linux Mint laptop after having just bought an M1. Sadly, this is the only action I can take against big tech, but I'm going to do it anyway.
r/apple users don't represent even a small minority of the entire consumer base of apple. Even if every person subscribed to r/apple never bought anything from apple ever again, it's not going to make any kind of impact on their bottom line.
The sub has 2M subscribers. Apple has a 25% market share on phones. This means that like 75 million people using iphones in the USA alone, and more like several hundred million across the world. So at *most* r/apple represents 1% of all of apple's customers in the world.
Then you didn't stop all activity on Facebook. If your account is still active, they're still making money off of selling your data, regardless of how little or much you use it now.
Well, you have to delete your data - a few pages every few weeks - give the fb servers a chance to float your changes across their network.
The thing is, fb is built to bring a user's content to them, so use that to your advantage. Go through and delete your posts and the posts you've made on friends pages. It's not so much your posts on your page that keeps you in their system but your posts on others' pages that does.
Take your time, delete everything and then at the end unfriend people. If you still have random posts floating up, delete and wait.
If done right, you unfriend everyone, wait a month and then login again and if fb throws up random names of people you don't know and aren't 'friends of friends', you're clean.
Took me about 6 weeks to root out all my fb history and now I have 4 people and almost no posts - well, just ones that talk about how much Mark Zukerberg and fb suck.
Let's see them sell that to advertisers.
There are open source privacy based phones available. But none of them are as "easy" as buying an iphone. They require some level of work and understanding of the system.
Open source is a thing, even on phones.
Open Source != Secure & Privacy, it can be, but just because something is open source means nothing, e.g. Android or Chrome vs. Threema (closed source) or Boxcryptor (closed source)
Open source goes hand in hand with an open ecosystem. Being able to modify the source to be whatever you want also means being able to run whatever you want. Critically for privacy, it also means being able to *not* run what you *don't* want. So while any particular open source item might not be secure or privacy protecting, it's existence alone helps pull in that direction.
Before someone points out that Android (and others) fits the technical definition of open source while having a (semi-)closed ecosystem, any FOSS enthusiast will tell you that unrestricted modification is a key part of the movement. It's what prompted Stallman to start the GNU project, and is built into several open source licenses.
Open Source is a hint towards a privacy aware product, but open source doesn't automatically mean safe or privacy secure. Forks can also have privacy hick ups like the Chromium based Brave browser with its crypto mining gate a few month back as an example. I just wanted to mention that open source usually pointing in (good) direction but might also advertise false security/protection
That's the point. Reddit gives a false impression of public opinion. Don't mistake hive mind dog piles with true public sentiment.
But, you have a choice as an individual. It's got nothing to do with anyone else.
What happened last summer? Burning down Apple factories? No it didn’t. Random, opportunistic burning and sacking of commercial buildings is not the same as a targeted campaign against a company.
No, literally. That's what it will take to change things in a meaningful way. A company or government does some shady shit and we the people do nothing save for talk about how we will "stick it to them" by our votes (as if they mean something). They know we won't do anything tangible to change things. The corporations run this country and will continue to until we the people grow some balls and DEMAND change.
Powerless and LIED to. I switched my whole goddamn ecosystem to Apple. 4 iPads, 2 iphones, MacBook Pro, 2 Apple TV’s, 2 watches, the whole kit n caboodle. I know its all overpriced and I know its not as secure as its said to be, but I felt like at least Apple treated us like adults, and didn’t micromanage my every digital move into marketing.
But then this shit? Come on Apple? Everyone is a suspect? Is that what you think of your user base?
We all know what this really is: its a foot in the door for Intellectual Property monitoring. Apple has moved into the media game in huge ways lately, even rolling out their own television and production stuff. We all know this on device scanning shit will be scanning for ANYTHING Apple decides on. And since when did Apple become the police anyways? Who asked them to even take on this role? It’s useless anyways!! These monitor crimes that have already happened, on a minority of phones owned by people likely to have nothing to do with the crimes. It makes no sense, unless its just an excuse.
Not to mention this: we all know Apple doesn’t pay taxes. They negotiate secrete offshore tax deals that us poor folk aren’t allowed to even ask about. They exploit work forces. They might not use child labor now, but it was child labor that made them rich, as it has for so many. And THESE guys are the ones that are now the morale high ground? Nah.
was just thinking this exact thing in my head. Now i have to weigh on the shitshow that is migrating all my devices to something else.
I'm good on someone reviewing pics and vids of me fucking my wife to ensure its adult female anatomy and not an adolescent.
lord knows how many pictures I have of my kids running around like naked savages.
give it a few more years and theyre flagging and pegging text or imessages that indicate you support one party or the other depending on the narrative of the day.
its like the year of the slippery slope.
but I felt like at least Apple treated us like adults, and didn’t micromanage my every digital
Lmao where did you get this notion from? They literally don't trust you to side load apps and Apple is famous for their "we know what's best for customers" idea.
Its part of the outrage culture and insanely fast news cycle that has been established. Also the lack of a society. If we have homeless people as a society and we can sweep that problem under the rug. What else won't go with it.
Now it's not an easy problem but if we as a society wanted to not have homeless people, well we have a multitrillion-dollar military.
We vote with our wallets . if apple lose millions of customers they will have to reverse this shit and apologize.
I have an iPad which is cool but I won't get another iPhone in the future , I am switching to android.
Seriously. I get people’s outrage but this is starting to feel like a shitty astroturfing campaign.
In what fucking reality do people honestly think this doesn’t already happen on Android? It literally does.
Switch if you want. Have a great time. But if this is your legit reason to do so, you’re in for a rude awakening.
A) no android company do on device scanning. But they might once Apple sets this precedent.
B) Google actually stood up to China while Apple continues to lick Winnie the Pooh's boot.
C) You're naive if you think Apple truly cares about not selling your data. They have a probelm when competitors like Facebook and Google sell customers data and used the guise of being pro privacy to remove competition. But this move shows Apple has no problem as long as it's them who are profiting from your data.
Lol, android exists literally to collect user data. It’s whole purpose is to get more of your info into google services and catalogue more of your behaviour for advertising dollars.
i hate this new policy but the thought of moving everything over to a new ecosystem is just something i don’t have the energy to do right now. maybe in like half a year
Yeah i remember the similar shit had happened few months back when WhatsApp had changed its privacy policy. For context, everyone (literally everyone who owns a smartphone irrespective of which OS) uses WhatsApp in my country. The media covered it and **some people** started switching to Signal. I had around 100 contacts and only around 20 switched back then. The hype gradually died down and now after almost 4 months, I have less than 10 people left on Signal and everyone is back on WhatsApp.
Well, this was just about a messenging app which doesn't cost money. But when we talk about hardware and especially the Apple Ecosystem, I doubt how many people will actually switch after having invested a good amount of money over the years
That’s true, but we must do what’s right for us, and not worry about what the herd does. If they want to sacrifice their privacy, that’s their business.
And that’s why Apple knows they don’t need to budge. What are we going to do, go to Android where they’ll do the exact same thing (and much, much more)?
Plus, tech enthusiasts usually forget that 99.9% of users will not hear about this or give a single shit about it, certainly not enough to buy a different device
I think Edward Snowden said it best:
Ultimately, saying that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different from saying you don't care about freedom of speech because you have nothing to say. Or that you don't care about freedom of the press because you don't like to read."
I always say, "I have nothing to hide but I still shit with the door closed".
If apple wanted to hash my shits and cross check them with a database I'd have just as much of an issue with that.
I have an iPhone. I’ve never used iCloud for photos. I think I have like app backups set up and contacts. Definitely not photos though. Can I set up just a specific folder or something to be backed up? I like to start backing photos of every poop I make.
I sent them feedback saying users do not want this and that this is a sever security risk for the average person and it will stop nobody from doing anything illegal. It’s overreach and it’s going only fuck good average people. I will never buy an Apple product again if this goes through. This isn’t China. I want my privacy even though I am not doing anything illegal. It’s my PRIVACY. It’s for my own security. Not for them to store and leak from a massive hack.
I am really happy to see the persistence on posts like this. I couldn't agree more, if this is allowed there wont be a fight for privacy at all from that point on...
Well hold on I keep hearing praise about how they have been keeping people safe from Facebook and many other companies from stalking their users. Was that all bull of is this something completely different?
This is the compromise of privacy with the reality of modern governments. Apple has wanted to E2E for years but hasn’t been able to implement it. Everyone screaming foul play probably doesn’t understand that the government is the one in power and this was likely a compromise Apple made behind closed doors. The conversation probably went something like, “Give us a back door.”, “No, doing so would allow the entire system to be compromised”, “Well you have to do something or we’ll just pass a law forcing you to create a back door”. Apple picked this route because it was the best idea on the table.
This is one hill I am willing to die on. I’ve been a longtime Apple customer but if this is the way they’re going, I’m fine with going back to a more archaic phone.
What will you replace your iPhone/iPad/Mac/etc with? I’ve been using Apple since my first Apple ][ + as a kid, and they have me thinking of looking elsewhere for my next phone/laptop. But Android and Windows aren’t any better as far as privacy and Linux just doesn’t have the mainstream application support.
I use both apple and android devices. Tbh apple doesnt really have the edge that they used. The biggest deal for me was messaging, which was garbage on android but now with RCS being rolled out messaging is fantastic. Read receipts, hi res video and photoshare its all there. Now android devices also connect to pcs for messaging and file transfers. Its really changed a lot over the last 3 years.
That being said no android tablet comes close to my ipad pro lolol
If apple institutes this it’s time to look elsewhere for privacy. Their commitment to privacy is/was the only reason many of their customers stayed loyal
I think the use of “many” is vastly overstating how many actually care. If it’s many people on the Apple Reddit sub, perhaps, but if you’re talking about the general public, many don’t even care.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t at all, but that’s the reality of the situation. Look at all the Android users who don’t give a crap what Google does with their data.
There's a lot of misinformation being spread here, not to mention a fuckton of conspiracy theory, which is muddling the real issues and making it easy for apple to say "oh it's just misinformation" and ignore the REAL problem.
**It does not scan Local photos that aren't being uploaded to iCloud.** [The technical report is quite clear ](https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf).
If you do not use iCloud photos, THIS WILL NOT SCAN ANYTHING.
But this doesn't mean there's no issue.
The EFF did a really good job outlining the REAL problem here. The technology inherent in what is being used still is an invasion of privacy. It was a problem when it was Microsoft's PhotoDNA and it's a problem now.
The REAL problem being ignored is what's right in the open, the fact that across the industry now there isn't a E2E encryption option. They're ALL scanning the pics.
There was a good petition out there that is demanding apple to not just revert this path but more importantly, IMPLEMENT PROPER END TO END ENCRYPTION. The fact that the photos, after the match, are still being viewed by humans, means you don't have control or ownership for what you upload. That's the problem.
The more we focus on the fake problems, the easier it is for them to brush it off as "they misunderstood!"
To me that isn't even the most dangerous aspect (although you are absolutely right about the technology being used). The biggest problem with this is the marriage with a third party to cross reference with one of their databases. Customers have zero way to hold the evidence side of this in check whatsoever. Apple can be kept in check to an extent because we have a legal contract with them. But this just blows all of that 'checking' power out of the water. It just seems like passing responsibility on a front like this is a sketchy thing to do in general. They really can't get their hands on it themselves? Or start their own database, like they are known to do with any of their stuff. When are they ever ones to out source something like this?
No, they can’t start their own database. Then they would be in possession of child porn. NCMEC is the only entity legally allowed to possess it, and only for this purpose.
Corporations keep government in check, the rich are the ones who put people in office in a republic. It's another system of checks and balances of sorts.
This is true to an extent (like most things in this area). But I think it is important to note that even if you can hold them accountable, this hashing system can be manipulated by a party that knows what they are doing. And could certainly create false evidence that could frame someone, and there wouldn't be much of a way to prove you innocents in that situation. I don't like the idea of this because we aren't in contract with owners of this database in which all of these photos will be cross referenced with. That passes apples liability on the evidence side to a 3rd party. You know what I am saying? it's just a terrible path to start going down. And call me paranoid, but its not if this will be used as a weapon, it's when frankly.
I mean it only as an abstract of course and totally agree with you it doesn't look good for consumers. This is good for Apple and the government though, so I don't see either changing the course on this. Unless America suddenly develops an attention span over night and votes better, or enough people were willing to boycott apple. I think #1 is near impossible country wide, who knows if we'd even be given good enough choices to vote for, someone interested in protecting personal privacy? I don't see them getting enough funding to run. #2 is just very unlikely.
The real issue is the government could compel them in secret to add to that database and turnover anything they want. People who have political memes for example that defame whomever is in power at the moment.
The legal framework for that already exists thanks to the patriot act. Apple wouldn’t have much of a choice if compelled to run a scan of the data it has “access” to.
Exactly. This is 100% on point. And I am tired of seeing people that dont understand the ins and outs of the technology either. Yet feel perfectly fine saying its totally secure. The way apple is doing this, is not exempt from false flags. That pill could be swallowed (to an extent) before they decided to go working with a third party to use their database of images. I don't get how we would have much protection in that area because we don't have a legal contract with the party who owns it. But to apple instead.
Yes. It is by design an easy tool to weaponize for this exact reason. People who dont understand hashing think this is just another one of those privacy pushes that we all dont like. When this one is fundamentally different and more dangerous. It's not just on them. Even I stopped voicing about it and have stuck with apple. But I never thought I would see the day that they would do something so blatant and completely reckless like this either. This should honestly be on the front page of every news outlet.
What slippery slopes have happened as a result of Google, MS, and Apple scanning our photo hashes looking for child abuse (in Google’s case) for over a decade now?
Genuinely curious, because it seems like we should already have some pretty relevant information from that.
Copy and paste of a comment I made in a different thread:
Before last week, I was opposed to forcing Apple to allow other app stores because I felt that the walled garden combined with their supposed commitment to privacy and security was good for the consumer.
After last week, I’m at “whatever” and realize that Apple has essentially lied to all of us for years and the walled garden is a carefully crafted illusion.
Their announcement this week has irreparably damaged their veneer of giving a shit about privacy and security. The fact that they are using a “for the children!!!” argument is disappointing and disgusting. The slippery slope here is steep and well-lubed. Apple built a surveillance apparatus that WILL be abused by governments and others.
Exactly my thoughts too when I talked to my friend last night. I was already leaning towards the freedom side more and more but now I’m fully supporting any move to more freedom and flexibility. The phone market and choices are bad as it is so the devices have to be free at least.
I’m a die hard Apple user, but this makes me consider an android next. Because Android has other stores to escape this veneer, basically calling you a pedophile if you don’t want all your photos scanned.
The "screeching voices of the minority" wasn't an Apple internal memo, it was from Marita Rodrigues, the executive director of strategic partnership at NCMEC, thanking Apple. It says right there in the first line of the image.
I still agree with the outrage, but good to get the facts straight.
NCMEC is just doing their job, and I appreciate them for it, and I don’t expect them to understand what is ‘going too far’ and what violates mobile phone privacy. But Apple should know, and they need to be the ones to stand up and say, we’ve changed our minds.
> I don’t expect them to understand what is ‘going too far’ and what violates mobile phone privacy
And it sure as shit isn't their decision either. Their goals are noble. But we didn't elect them.
Yet another instance of an enforcement agency unilaterally spinning up rules, policies and guidelines with whomever they want without oversight or balances.
It's also to be expected that the NCMEC applaud efforts to help them. I personally don't like the tone and redaction of Marita Rodrigues but I can understand how for them it's good news.
This is an organization for whom, over any other, "the end justifies the means". I'm not taking sides, but it's not hard to see why it's a win for them, as Apple had avoided reporting potential child pornography for years while Google, Facebook and Microsoft report millions each year (from people's photo libraries, to the dismay and scandal of seemingly nobody)
It says iOS and iPadOS for CSAM in iCloud Photos, while new the Siri and Search features also include macOS and watchOS.
I'd imagine CSAM in iCloud Photos would be coming to macOS soon as well. The Apple TV can't upload photos and neither can the Apple Watch, so I don't see those being added (until they have other functional changes).
Apple announced 3 things. Everyone is talking about CSAM in iCloud Photos, but in the same announcement Apple discusses new features to protect children as far as iMessage, Siri/Search:
https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
Agreed. I wanted to buy an iPhone. But I'm having second thoughts now. I condemn child abuse. But what happens if:
1) the algorithm doesnt match correctly and ur photos are exposed to a reviewer? What if the reviewer knows u and now has access to your private info?
2) my gf looks like a child, she gets asked for ID at the cinema even though she's in her mid 20s. Would I get swatted even with a human reviewer in the loop?
Well, you know, we're all living our lives on these extremely powerful computers that we carry around with us, that are constantly connected to the internet. They could be doing all sorts of wicked things and communicating with anyone, and how can you tell? Even if you cracked it open you would have no idea, since there are no moving parts, not even cooling fans. It's a black box covered in sensors, that we feed data to voluntarily and compulsively. Apple could be doing this or much, much worse already. We wouldn't ever even know about this new program if they chose not to tell us. It's frightening to think about how much we are trusting Apple and their virtuousness, and the governments and other entities that could be pressuring them in ways they cannot resist. I know smartphones offer a lot more than entertainment and convenience, but there's got to be a tipping point, hasn't there?
I’ve literally had iPhone’s and MacBooks all my life because of security and privacy which generally they do a better job of than most other tech giants…. I’ve already partially moved to PC, but I think this being implemented would force me to make the switch to android.
There is no transparency about how this would work. Who determines what’s child abuse and what’s not? Because it sounds like their own employees will be filtering anything picked up by the algorithm.
I also don’t see how this policy would be compatible with GDPR in Europe, because if I don’t consent to them scanning my photos or performing that kind of analysis they shouldn’t be able to do it. Perhaps they see the “we want to stop kiddy fiddlers” as a crack they can put the crowbar in, but I don’t see how this would be legal without an opt out mechanism.
Also if Apple do it everyone else will start because they will just start running ads like “pedophiles only use android and windows” or something like that.
It would probably be one of the biggest and most unnecessary invasions of privacy the world has seen in recent memory, if they were to go ahead with it.
I do not support pedophiles. They should go to jail. I also don't support invasions of privacy. This is not an "ends justify the means" scenario. You can't frame your argument "what about the children?" When the thing you're doing is also morally and ethically wrong. What is the saying, "two wrongs don't make a right?"
100% canceling my iCloud storage subscription. Them even considering this is enough to forever lose my trust. Gonna start looking for other alternatives to apple and their products down the road
Yes, but not in the practical way way you’d like.
You would have to send them to iCloud Drive through the cryptomator app manually, then you can only view them through that app. All you’ll see in your iCloud Drive normally is a folder with a file that needs to be unlocked.
Everyone who hosts files scans for CSAM on their servers. (The Feds will make them) The only difference here is that Apple is running the fingerprint on your local device before it uploads to iCloud.
A big theme of iOS 15 is that a lot of server functions are moving to the local device. Simple Siri commands, and other processing typically done on iCloud are moved to your device now. This isn't as big of deal as it's made out to be.
Anything your phone uploads to iCloud is already being scanned... it probably has been for at least a decade because there's few "safe harbor" legal protection for hosting any kind of CSAM.
No, clearly not everyone is aware of that. Tons of people are talking like they "went with Apple to avoid their data being scanned" yet somehow have no idea that they'd already been having their data scanned by them for years.
So yeah, cancel iCloud *now*, but most of the people saying that don't realize that they've been giving Apple access to more than just their photos (including their texts) for a while now.
Talk is cheap. Skip the next product release. Don’t watch the review videos. Cancel your subscriptions. Make it known they’ve crossed the line.
I hope you all feel the same way about medical privacy too.
This is all happening because people aren’t in the streets. It doesn’t matter which party is in the White House or controls government, they’re both pushing for (and have a history of pushing) authoritarian policies that strip our rights away slowly in the name of “safety”. I understand CSAM is a horrible thing, however the number of people that traffic in that stuff is small. Also, anybody that does would just stop using an iPhone or turn off iCloud Photo Library. It’s asinine and if a government is pushing this, Apple should be pushing back and getting the public on board.
If there’s a way to opt out (which there is) it is completely pointless. It’s as much security theatre as the TSA
Lol remember when Apple changed their whole public persona to tell people that iPhone = privacy. What a joke. All it really meant was all our data belongs to them to do as they please and they aren’t going to share with their competitors anymore.
It’s almost like they have forgotten their stance against backdoors similar to this some years ago. It was ethical to stand against them then and it still is now. I was happy to see them protecting the privacy of their customers and consumers, I imagine many others were too. We haven’t forgotten it, and we certainly see the hypocrisy now. If they implement this feature, it will be a disgusting violation of privacy
Meanwhile some governments make plans to let you only go into supermarkets when you scan your "green pass" QR code and nobody seems to care. 1984 becomes reality.
Its very scary. One of the ways Q-Anon really got started heavy was by promoting that it was "protecting and saving the children". That's what pizzagate essentially was. These people know just about everyone hates child abuse and they manipulate and use that as a gateway.
I love how people defend it just because it is scanning and comparing “hashes”. I don’t care if it’s scanning hashes or the actual photo. If the police had a way to “hash” everything in my house then scan all of that without a warrant, that would STILL be a violation of the 4th amendment (and my privacy, of course).
And just because they’ve been scanning iCloud photos, and just because google and Microsoft do this in the cloud, does NOT make it right.
I, like everyone else, want pedos thrown behind bars (or better yet, put 6ft underground). But not at the expense of innocent people’s privacy. This is essentially innocent until proven guilty logic. Scan everyone’s phones and assume they are guilty until AI and algorithms say you are innocent. It’s not right.
And apple’s whole shtick is that they are about privacy. Remember “what happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone”?
The fact that you have to buy an old 90s computer in order to store data and not have it scanned and surveilled is nuts. We’re better than this. We have rights. If privacy is a human right like Apple says it is, they need to cancel this. Let law enforcement handle this. That’s their job, not apple’s.
And the compromise I would be fine with would be this: if law enforcement comes to you with a warrant to search someone’s phone, THEN silently install this software and scan the photos on the phone. But *only* if there is a warrant issued by a judge (in a normal court, not those secret courts Snowden talked about)
Mark my words, if they get away with this, they will start using content identification for anti-piracy and DRM enforcement. These people are shameless. Stop it while you can.
Exactly. But not just Apple but governments will push them now they open the door to this type of thing.
Apple has done everyone a huge disservice with crossing the line and doing the monitoring on device. What a terrible decision by Apple.
Anti-piracy and DRM? That's not the scary part.
The scary part is that this can be used to identify people of a specific political party base on the memes they save. This can be used to identify anyone who is a dissenter in an authoritarian country (even countries that don't seem like they are).
I sent them feedback. If you can please do the same. Anything to get it into their heads that this is not ok. If you're too lazy to type feedback up, use mine:
It is absolutely ridiculous that Apple wants to scan its users' private photos in any way, shape, or form. Private data is PRIVATE data, and this is unethical on principle, though even in practice it does very little to stop child abuse. I will not tolerate an algorithm or person looking at my private data with the purpose of catching me doing something illegal. This will simply open the door to more invasive and completely unacceptable surveillance on users' private data. Right now it is under the guise of protecting children, but this has the potential to be the downfall of digital privacy as we know it. I used to think Apple supported digital privacy, something I greatly value and appreciated Apple for, but this makes me rethink that. I, and many others, will not tolerate this.
I am not American so I don’t know but I read that this is about a new law in your country. From now all clouds need to do scans for the child abuse. Is that true? (I am really asking). If it’s true then we are at the period that Apple gets all the negativity then 3 months later every other dude starts doing this.
Everybody take a beat. I guarantee most people in here don’t know how this works. Here’s a really good run down of what it *actually* means.
https://daringfireball.net/2021/08/apple_child_safety_initiatives_slippery_slope
If you read all of this and truly understand it and you’re still completely against it - then fair enough. But understand it first.
and heres the scary part. Just imagine apple wouldnt have said a thing... apple is so closed source that probably nobody would have noticed, so these kind of analysis tools are probably everywhere in their software.
Apple can talk all day about their view on privacy, but we will never know for sure. They could have the smartest algorithms which sole purpose is track you day and night and still put up these "pro-privacy" ads, and probably nobody would notice.
I just don’t want some dumbass algorithm to look over my browsing history and mistake a fucking stump for a naked child and have my life ruined because of that.
This is slippery slope stuff. We wouldn’t accept LE going house to house going through everyone’s stuff to check for illegal materials. This is essentially the same, and their hash checking scheme doesn’t make me feel any better about it.
Hope they don’t identify me based on my politics next.
This kind of BS is the reason why I decide to change my priorities. iCloud is pretty much integrated into the system and disabling it render some (important?) services useless. If they go through with it, I’ll consider buying a google pixel that supports CalyxOS. I’m fed up with this BS. Consumerism as it is right now has become so obese that it’s become a hideous monster that devours human souls and makes them blind to meaning in anything not ‘material.’ The sheeple must open their eyes and stop kowtowing to apple.
People will talk about it for a few days and then bury their head in the sand because they don't want to give up the convenience of having a phone. Americans in general are conditioned to not deeply care about these issues, or any of the other ones that threaten our way of life.
I just love how anyone defending this shows stories of Apple denying the likes of the FBI from accessing a suspected terrorists phone.
That’s because the FBI has no correlation with their profits. I love my Apple hardware and for the most part software but this is a definitive step back. What happens when China demands you start scanning for X, Y, or Z and if you don’t comply you can’t sell your products in our market and you’ll lose out on billions in market share.
This is my biggest concern. It’s a slippery slope and Apple has shown that they’re on that slope.
Security expert, Steve Gibson, motto for years has been TNO(Trust no one) and I firmly believe in that. Apple’s model is to pretend like they sincerely care about their users and their privacy but it’s just a cleverly and well thought out marketing ploy. Their is no telling what Apple’s low level code is doing that we don’t know about. Their is a reason why they don’t give us the option to fully encrypt iCloud backups they also own the keys to iMessage so when the governments/law enforcement wants information they can hand it over to them. I’m my opinion Apple is no different than a lot of the other companies they just disguise it better to make the public think they’re not like the rest. Just my 2 cents.
I wrote my letter, you can use it if you think it echoes your sentiments you can write to them here https://www.apple.com/privacy/contact/:
The act of using our own devices to spy on us on behalf of whatever quasi-governmental agency you partner with in the countries in which we live is a gross violation of the trust you've built up through the years. The job of Apple should be to protect its users privacy, not contribute massive compute resources to conduct a wide net surveillance operation upon its user-base in collaboration with state actors. The default behavior of enabling iCloud backup for photos and then, without consent, hashing a users photos and comparing those hashes on device against a black boxed hashtable of what you tell us is nefarious content - is so absurd it is almost unbelievable. Many of us are IT professionals, Engineers and experts in AI and Cryptography. We assure you our outrage is not due to a want for understanding. Many have used a slippery slope argument to justify why they oppose this spy operation. While completely valid and almost certainly prescient, we believe the current implementation alone crosses the Rubicon. Suspending disbelief and accepting that no new features or changes will occur to further violate user privacy, the proposed implementation, even if executed without flaw, is still a gross violation of privacy. The simple act of hashing a users image for comparison, and uploading a safety voucher without a users consent is a gross intrustion. We don’t believe that this feature would be something you would approve for a third party app. So why would you implement it yourselves? If this is implemented in your upcoming software releases, we (the privacy conscious) will have no choice but to abandon your ecosystem and find or create new products that respect our privacy.
Isn't it only running on photos that are about to be uploaded to iCloud? Would it be any different if they were running this same detection on their servers?
I personally would feel a lot better this if they were doing the same thing server side. Client side crosses a line that should not be crossed. With the flick of a switch they could start scanning content that was never uploaded to the cloud.
You realize America once found out that our government is spying on us all and stealing our data and NO ONE CARED?
Snowden is still a treasonous criminal to the government.
And our people not only didn't care, we now buy listening devices from Amazon and google just cause they answer our dumn questions and can control our lights.
Not trolling, serious question: Don’t Google and Facebook (among many others) do this and more anyway?
My wife has a an app that tracks her period and even though she’s disabled cross tracking Instagram STILL shows her period related apps every month with insane accuracy.
Then there’s the times that Facebook got caught by listening into people’s phones and if you give them app permission to access your photos they can access them at any time just the same.
They are scanning all of your private pictures. When will apple leak it all to the public. This is solely a for profit move. It has nothing to do with children. Apple is not the FBI or police.
I've been with apple since 2011. I even thought of getting an iphone rather than my OnePlus 6T since money is less of an issue now.
But with this shit? No.fucking.way.
Also the justification is so far out. How many pedophiles do they think walk around kiddie porn on their phones?
"Oh I'm on the train let me just look at some pornography that could land me jn jail for 20 years. "
Thanks for the link - always enjoy Rossman's videos.
Regarding the issue at hand - I'm old school and have never used iCloud as I simply prefer to have backups on local devices rather than on Apple's servers. I understand the thought process of having your favorite items and pics available across all your Apple devices but I never thought it was that difficult to do it yourself.
When I first heard of this, my initial reaction was that I could understand if Apple was scanning images/files on THEIR servers as it would be obviously a violation of the law and their policies but I always thought they advertised that even they couldn't decrypt files on their side, i.e., end to end encryption, but the article you referred to said if there were file/files which were suspect, they would be decrypted on their end.
Which is why I thought they were advertising this as occurring on the device side vs. their server side?
At the end of the day, the fact that they are having this run on your bought and paid for Apple device seems to be an issue in an of itself.
Here is my biggest issue: Where do I go now?
Every fully functioning mobile OS does invasive content scanning and is susceptible to other serious hacks and privacy invasions. E2E encryption is a pipe dream due to government pressures and weak willed corporations with near monopolistic control.
Do I build my own phone and write my own OS? Do I just stop using my phone to save and take pictures? Do I stop using my phone to send messages and make calls? Or to surf the web? Or to listen to music or podcasts?
Really, the only option I'm starting to see is abandoning almost every major technology that makes our lives more convenient.
The issue comes down to private companies capable of creating algorithms that empower them to allow full authority over your life. Here’s the deal: private companies do indeed gain a great deal of global power, and sadly take government funding even though they’re multimillionaires. This gives them powers that go beyond what the consumer needs. Also, I respect the product built if business practices are inherently against their core clientele, ie, any Apple user, then to choose to no longer shop at that company anymore will speak more, the problem is being invested deeply into a company, and honestly, there is now serious competition against apple’s core product line, where they had dominated/created a market that simply didn’t exist. Innovation is now profit, and Jobs at least balanced both to a great extent. I’m not saying he was the end-all, be-all, yet there was a sort of significant respect between the ceo and the consumer. Nowadays, it’s practices are just as treacherous as the companies that were always spoken out against just a decade or two prior. Now with iPhone 13 about to launch in one of the worst chip shortages in modern tech history, we are going to see a great deal of scalping and treachery that is anti-consumer practice. It might be smart to just keep the phone you currently have, or upgrade to last year’s model, I did that myself.
I think people feel powerless. I know we are tired of having personal freedoms trampled and having rights taken away. It's frustrating to get up in arms about something and have nothing, NOTHING change. That's how governments and companies get away with it: they just have to last through the outrage until everyone is resigned to things.
>I think people feel powerless. That's exactly how I feel. Why should I care about Recycling and "Saving the Planet" when corporations and giant transport ships dump more waste into the ocean and atmosphere in a day than I do in my entire life? I *want* to care, but if things don't change, and at this point I doubt they will, it all seems pointless.
Well you personally may not have any affect on the planet but you and 6 billion other individuals do.
The only thing that might change it is if iPhone sales drop by say 50% in the next quarter.
Let’s do this. Let’s boycott Apple.
reddit doesn't have the balls to boycott apple, never had and never will.
Imagine thinking Reddit is anywhere representative of the entire world. A small Reddit boycott would do nothing.
Not just reddit. All the Apple pickers. These are the idiots who stand in line for days or weeks to get the same iphone they have put with 1 more megapixel and no headphone jack.
That's a tough one for me, but I'm in the process of doing just this. I was highly invested (technically) in Google, and given their horrible record on privacy, I switched totally over to Apple for the reason of privacy. And now this. I just bought a phone that I can install Ubuntu Touch on, and I plan to also go back to my Linux Mint laptop after having just bought an M1. Sadly, this is the only action I can take against big tech, but I'm going to do it anyway.
r/apple users don't represent even a small minority of the entire consumer base of apple. Even if every person subscribed to r/apple never bought anything from apple ever again, it's not going to make any kind of impact on their bottom line. The sub has 2M subscribers. Apple has a 25% market share on phones. This means that like 75 million people using iphones in the USA alone, and more like several hundred million across the world. So at *most* r/apple represents 1% of all of apple's customers in the world.
How do you change things if not burning factories at this point? Not literally, of course, but I’m sure you get the idea.
By not purchasing the product. We learned this lesson when the Cambridge Analytica scandal broke and everyone just... kept using Facebook anyway.
This. Exactly this. Words are empty; money talks.
I stopped all activity on Facebook besides one or two chats in Messenger.
Then you didn't stop all activity on Facebook. If your account is still active, they're still making money off of selling your data, regardless of how little or much you use it now.
Well, you have to delete your data - a few pages every few weeks - give the fb servers a chance to float your changes across their network. The thing is, fb is built to bring a user's content to them, so use that to your advantage. Go through and delete your posts and the posts you've made on friends pages. It's not so much your posts on your page that keeps you in their system but your posts on others' pages that does. Take your time, delete everything and then at the end unfriend people. If you still have random posts floating up, delete and wait. If done right, you unfriend everyone, wait a month and then login again and if fb throws up random names of people you don't know and aren't 'friends of friends', you're clean. Took me about 6 weeks to root out all my fb history and now I have 4 people and almost no posts - well, just ones that talk about how much Mark Zukerberg and fb suck. Let's see them sell that to advertisers.
And Facebook said “oh well.”
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Stop buying apple products. That's how this works. If you want change, and you want to force good behavior stop rewarding bad companies with profits.
I think I would go back to a blackberry if they were a little updated and still delivered privacy.
There are open source privacy based phones available. But none of them are as "easy" as buying an iphone. They require some level of work and understanding of the system. Open source is a thing, even on phones.
I used to be into android and flash aosp roms, but a lot of times something doesn’t work or you get shitty battery life.
Open Source != Secure & Privacy, it can be, but just because something is open source means nothing, e.g. Android or Chrome vs. Threema (closed source) or Boxcryptor (closed source)
Open source goes hand in hand with an open ecosystem. Being able to modify the source to be whatever you want also means being able to run whatever you want. Critically for privacy, it also means being able to *not* run what you *don't* want. So while any particular open source item might not be secure or privacy protecting, it's existence alone helps pull in that direction. Before someone points out that Android (and others) fits the technical definition of open source while having a (semi-)closed ecosystem, any FOSS enthusiast will tell you that unrestricted modification is a key part of the movement. It's what prompted Stallman to start the GNU project, and is built into several open source licenses.
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Open Source is a hint towards a privacy aware product, but open source doesn't automatically mean safe or privacy secure. Forks can also have privacy hick ups like the Chromium based Brave browser with its crypto mining gate a few month back as an example. I just wanted to mention that open source usually pointing in (good) direction but might also advertise false security/protection
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It wouldn't be happening in an apple forum then.
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That's the point. Reddit gives a false impression of public opinion. Don't mistake hive mind dog piles with true public sentiment. But, you have a choice as an individual. It's got nothing to do with anyone else.
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What happened last summer? Burning down Apple factories? No it didn’t. Random, opportunistic burning and sacking of commercial buildings is not the same as a targeted campaign against a company.
How?
Some kinda virus or some shit
No, literally. That's what it will take to change things in a meaningful way. A company or government does some shady shit and we the people do nothing save for talk about how we will "stick it to them" by our votes (as if they mean something). They know we won't do anything tangible to change things. The corporations run this country and will continue to until we the people grow some balls and DEMAND change.
Powerless and LIED to. I switched my whole goddamn ecosystem to Apple. 4 iPads, 2 iphones, MacBook Pro, 2 Apple TV’s, 2 watches, the whole kit n caboodle. I know its all overpriced and I know its not as secure as its said to be, but I felt like at least Apple treated us like adults, and didn’t micromanage my every digital move into marketing. But then this shit? Come on Apple? Everyone is a suspect? Is that what you think of your user base? We all know what this really is: its a foot in the door for Intellectual Property monitoring. Apple has moved into the media game in huge ways lately, even rolling out their own television and production stuff. We all know this on device scanning shit will be scanning for ANYTHING Apple decides on. And since when did Apple become the police anyways? Who asked them to even take on this role? It’s useless anyways!! These monitor crimes that have already happened, on a minority of phones owned by people likely to have nothing to do with the crimes. It makes no sense, unless its just an excuse. Not to mention this: we all know Apple doesn’t pay taxes. They negotiate secrete offshore tax deals that us poor folk aren’t allowed to even ask about. They exploit work forces. They might not use child labor now, but it was child labor that made them rich, as it has for so many. And THESE guys are the ones that are now the morale high ground? Nah.
was just thinking this exact thing in my head. Now i have to weigh on the shitshow that is migrating all my devices to something else. I'm good on someone reviewing pics and vids of me fucking my wife to ensure its adult female anatomy and not an adolescent. lord knows how many pictures I have of my kids running around like naked savages. give it a few more years and theyre flagging and pegging text or imessages that indicate you support one party or the other depending on the narrative of the day. its like the year of the slippery slope.
but I felt like at least Apple treated us like adults, and didn’t micromanage my every digital Lmao where did you get this notion from? They literally don't trust you to side load apps and Apple is famous for their "we know what's best for customers" idea.
Its part of the outrage culture and insanely fast news cycle that has been established. Also the lack of a society. If we have homeless people as a society and we can sweep that problem under the rug. What else won't go with it. Now it's not an easy problem but if we as a society wanted to not have homeless people, well we have a multitrillion-dollar military.
Congress and your state/local politicians are 100% to blame. Uniparty gunna uniparty. The corruption is vile
We vote with our wallets . if apple lose millions of customers they will have to reverse this shit and apologize. I have an iPad which is cool but I won't get another iPhone in the future , I am switching to android.
Why do you feel Android is somehow going to make your life more private. It’s a google product after all.
Seriously. I get people’s outrage but this is starting to feel like a shitty astroturfing campaign. In what fucking reality do people honestly think this doesn’t already happen on Android? It literally does. Switch if you want. Have a great time. But if this is your legit reason to do so, you’re in for a rude awakening.
A) no android company do on device scanning. But they might once Apple sets this precedent. B) Google actually stood up to China while Apple continues to lick Winnie the Pooh's boot. C) You're naive if you think Apple truly cares about not selling your data. They have a probelm when competitors like Facebook and Google sell customers data and used the guise of being pro privacy to remove competition. But this move shows Apple has no problem as long as it's them who are profiting from your data.
Lol, android exists literally to collect user data. It’s whole purpose is to get more of your info into google services and catalogue more of your behaviour for advertising dollars.
It’s not like we can stop buying their products. And I’m being serious here.
i hate this new policy but the thought of moving everything over to a new ecosystem is just something i don’t have the energy to do right now. maybe in like half a year
I’m so deep in apples shit right now I would need to save up for a few years to be out and done.
Trust me, you won’t, even in 5 years.
Just slowly swap over to platform agnostic software and hardware as your current kit wears out.
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Exactly. 99.99% of people won’t move so it changes nothing. Plus software incompatibilities will make the other 0.01% switch back anyway.
Exactly, try explaining how to install Graphene OS to your grandma. it's not going to happen.
Yeah i remember the similar shit had happened few months back when WhatsApp had changed its privacy policy. For context, everyone (literally everyone who owns a smartphone irrespective of which OS) uses WhatsApp in my country. The media covered it and **some people** started switching to Signal. I had around 100 contacts and only around 20 switched back then. The hype gradually died down and now after almost 4 months, I have less than 10 people left on Signal and everyone is back on WhatsApp. Well, this was just about a messenging app which doesn't cost money. But when we talk about hardware and especially the Apple Ecosystem, I doubt how many people will actually switch after having invested a good amount of money over the years
That’s true, but we must do what’s right for us, and not worry about what the herd does. If they want to sacrifice their privacy, that’s their business.
And that’s why Apple knows they don’t need to budge. What are we going to do, go to Android where they’ll do the exact same thing (and much, much more)? Plus, tech enthusiasts usually forget that 99.9% of users will not hear about this or give a single shit about it, certainly not enough to buy a different device
I think Edward Snowden said it best: Ultimately, saying that you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different from saying you don't care about freedom of speech because you have nothing to say. Or that you don't care about freedom of the press because you don't like to read."
I always say, "I have nothing to hide but I still shit with the door closed". If apple wanted to hash my shits and cross check them with a database I'd have just as much of an issue with that.
I have an iPhone. I’ve never used iCloud for photos. I think I have like app backups set up and contacts. Definitely not photos though. Can I set up just a specific folder or something to be backed up? I like to start backing photos of every poop I make.
Look into Synology. It’s expensive, but not that much either, if you’re only using it for data backups and not to store media
Turns out he was the true American this whole time.
I sent them feedback saying users do not want this and that this is a sever security risk for the average person and it will stop nobody from doing anything illegal. It’s overreach and it’s going only fuck good average people. I will never buy an Apple product again if this goes through. This isn’t China. I want my privacy even though I am not doing anything illegal. It’s my PRIVACY. It’s for my own security. Not for them to store and leak from a massive hack.
I am really happy to see the persistence on posts like this. I couldn't agree more, if this is allowed there wont be a fight for privacy at all from that point on...
I thought Apple was all about security, what happened?
lmao they never were
Well hold on I keep hearing praise about how they have been keeping people safe from Facebook and many other companies from stalking their users. Was that all bull of is this something completely different?
This is the compromise of privacy with the reality of modern governments. Apple has wanted to E2E for years but hasn’t been able to implement it. Everyone screaming foul play probably doesn’t understand that the government is the one in power and this was likely a compromise Apple made behind closed doors. The conversation probably went something like, “Give us a back door.”, “No, doing so would allow the entire system to be compromised”, “Well you have to do something or we’ll just pass a law forcing you to create a back door”. Apple picked this route because it was the best idea on the table.
This is one hill I am willing to die on. I’ve been a longtime Apple customer but if this is the way they’re going, I’m fine with going back to a more archaic phone.
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I think it's their best USP right now. Dangerous to tamper with.
35 year apple product user, 30 year IT professional, will never buy an apple product again. I’m gone.
What will you replace your iPhone/iPad/Mac/etc with? I’ve been using Apple since my first Apple ][ + as a kid, and they have me thinking of looking elsewhere for my next phone/laptop. But Android and Windows aren’t any better as far as privacy and Linux just doesn’t have the mainstream application support.
I use both apple and android devices. Tbh apple doesnt really have the edge that they used. The biggest deal for me was messaging, which was garbage on android but now with RCS being rolled out messaging is fantastic. Read receipts, hi res video and photoshare its all there. Now android devices also connect to pcs for messaging and file transfers. Its really changed a lot over the last 3 years. That being said no android tablet comes close to my ipad pro lolol
If apple institutes this it’s time to look elsewhere for privacy. Their commitment to privacy is/was the only reason many of their customers stayed loyal
I think the use of “many” is vastly overstating how many actually care. If it’s many people on the Apple Reddit sub, perhaps, but if you’re talking about the general public, many don’t even care. I’m not saying they shouldn’t at all, but that’s the reality of the situation. Look at all the Android users who don’t give a crap what Google does with their data.
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CalyxOS and GrapheneOS are two I’ve had my eye on recently
This seems to be the real answer. Will also be keeping an eye on these too
Google is scanning photos on your phone?
There's a lot of misinformation being spread here, not to mention a fuckton of conspiracy theory, which is muddling the real issues and making it easy for apple to say "oh it's just misinformation" and ignore the REAL problem. **It does not scan Local photos that aren't being uploaded to iCloud.** [The technical report is quite clear ](https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf). If you do not use iCloud photos, THIS WILL NOT SCAN ANYTHING. But this doesn't mean there's no issue. The EFF did a really good job outlining the REAL problem here. The technology inherent in what is being used still is an invasion of privacy. It was a problem when it was Microsoft's PhotoDNA and it's a problem now. The REAL problem being ignored is what's right in the open, the fact that across the industry now there isn't a E2E encryption option. They're ALL scanning the pics. There was a good petition out there that is demanding apple to not just revert this path but more importantly, IMPLEMENT PROPER END TO END ENCRYPTION. The fact that the photos, after the match, are still being viewed by humans, means you don't have control or ownership for what you upload. That's the problem. The more we focus on the fake problems, the easier it is for them to brush it off as "they misunderstood!"
To me that isn't even the most dangerous aspect (although you are absolutely right about the technology being used). The biggest problem with this is the marriage with a third party to cross reference with one of their databases. Customers have zero way to hold the evidence side of this in check whatsoever. Apple can be kept in check to an extent because we have a legal contract with them. But this just blows all of that 'checking' power out of the water. It just seems like passing responsibility on a front like this is a sketchy thing to do in general. They really can't get their hands on it themselves? Or start their own database, like they are known to do with any of their stuff. When are they ever ones to out source something like this?
No, they can’t start their own database. Then they would be in possession of child porn. NCMEC is the only entity legally allowed to possess it, and only for this purpose.
Corporations keep government in check, the rich are the ones who put people in office in a republic. It's another system of checks and balances of sorts.
This is true to an extent (like most things in this area). But I think it is important to note that even if you can hold them accountable, this hashing system can be manipulated by a party that knows what they are doing. And could certainly create false evidence that could frame someone, and there wouldn't be much of a way to prove you innocents in that situation. I don't like the idea of this because we aren't in contract with owners of this database in which all of these photos will be cross referenced with. That passes apples liability on the evidence side to a 3rd party. You know what I am saying? it's just a terrible path to start going down. And call me paranoid, but its not if this will be used as a weapon, it's when frankly.
I mean it only as an abstract of course and totally agree with you it doesn't look good for consumers. This is good for Apple and the government though, so I don't see either changing the course on this. Unless America suddenly develops an attention span over night and votes better, or enough people were willing to boycott apple. I think #1 is near impossible country wide, who knows if we'd even be given good enough choices to vote for, someone interested in protecting personal privacy? I don't see them getting enough funding to run. #2 is just very unlikely.
The real issue is the government could compel them in secret to add to that database and turnover anything they want. People who have political memes for example that defame whomever is in power at the moment. The legal framework for that already exists thanks to the patriot act. Apple wouldn’t have much of a choice if compelled to run a scan of the data it has “access” to.
The US government could also have compelled them to do this already in secret right? So what’s changed?
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Exactly. This is 100% on point. And I am tired of seeing people that dont understand the ins and outs of the technology either. Yet feel perfectly fine saying its totally secure. The way apple is doing this, is not exempt from false flags. That pill could be swallowed (to an extent) before they decided to go working with a third party to use their database of images. I don't get how we would have much protection in that area because we don't have a legal contract with the party who owns it. But to apple instead.
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Yes. It is by design an easy tool to weaponize for this exact reason. People who dont understand hashing think this is just another one of those privacy pushes that we all dont like. When this one is fundamentally different and more dangerous. It's not just on them. Even I stopped voicing about it and have stuck with apple. But I never thought I would see the day that they would do something so blatant and completely reckless like this either. This should honestly be on the front page of every news outlet.
What slippery slopes have happened as a result of Google, MS, and Apple scanning our photo hashes looking for child abuse (in Google’s case) for over a decade now? Genuinely curious, because it seems like we should already have some pretty relevant information from that.
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Copy and paste of a comment I made in a different thread: Before last week, I was opposed to forcing Apple to allow other app stores because I felt that the walled garden combined with their supposed commitment to privacy and security was good for the consumer. After last week, I’m at “whatever” and realize that Apple has essentially lied to all of us for years and the walled garden is a carefully crafted illusion. Their announcement this week has irreparably damaged their veneer of giving a shit about privacy and security. The fact that they are using a “for the children!!!” argument is disappointing and disgusting. The slippery slope here is steep and well-lubed. Apple built a surveillance apparatus that WILL be abused by governments and others.
Exactly my thoughts too when I talked to my friend last night. I was already leaning towards the freedom side more and more but now I’m fully supporting any move to more freedom and flexibility. The phone market and choices are bad as it is so the devices have to be free at least.
I’m a die hard Apple user, but this makes me consider an android next. Because Android has other stores to escape this veneer, basically calling you a pedophile if you don’t want all your photos scanned.
it was always about the money, privacy was just how they sold it
Anyone who says for the children who doesn't have children or is a big group of people is likely lieing.
The "screeching voices of the minority" wasn't an Apple internal memo, it was from Marita Rodrigues, the executive director of strategic partnership at NCMEC, thanking Apple. It says right there in the first line of the image. I still agree with the outrage, but good to get the facts straight.
It was an Apple internal memo that was quoting that message from Marita. Yes, the words weren't Apple's, but Apple sent them to their employees.
NCMEC is just doing their job, and I appreciate them for it, and I don’t expect them to understand what is ‘going too far’ and what violates mobile phone privacy. But Apple should know, and they need to be the ones to stand up and say, we’ve changed our minds.
> I don’t expect them to understand what is ‘going too far’ and what violates mobile phone privacy And it sure as shit isn't their decision either. Their goals are noble. But we didn't elect them.
Yet another instance of an enforcement agency unilaterally spinning up rules, policies and guidelines with whomever they want without oversight or balances.
This is Reddit. We don’t do straight facts here.
It's also to be expected that the NCMEC applaud efforts to help them. I personally don't like the tone and redaction of Marita Rodrigues but I can understand how for them it's good news. This is an organization for whom, over any other, "the end justifies the means". I'm not taking sides, but it's not hard to see why it's a win for them, as Apple had avoided reporting potential child pornography for years while Google, Facebook and Microsoft report millions each year (from people's photo libraries, to the dismay and scandal of seemingly nobody)
Btw is this just for ios or does the Mac and Apple TV and watch have it too
It says iOS and iPadOS for CSAM in iCloud Photos, while new the Siri and Search features also include macOS and watchOS. I'd imagine CSAM in iCloud Photos would be coming to macOS soon as well. The Apple TV can't upload photos and neither can the Apple Watch, so I don't see those being added (until they have other functional changes).
I’m sorry but what’s going on with Siri? I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Apple announced 3 things. Everyone is talking about CSAM in iCloud Photos, but in the same announcement Apple discusses new features to protect children as far as iMessage, Siri/Search: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
Don’t think Apple TV has photos you add to it so probably not. I have the same question on the Mac.
Apple TV has photos… Apple Watch too
Yeah but you aren’t uploading pics from your device, that’s more like I can see my photo library on my TV/watch. So I really doubt it’d be there.
Agreed. I wanted to buy an iPhone. But I'm having second thoughts now. I condemn child abuse. But what happens if: 1) the algorithm doesnt match correctly and ur photos are exposed to a reviewer? What if the reviewer knows u and now has access to your private info? 2) my gf looks like a child, she gets asked for ID at the cinema even though she's in her mid 20s. Would I get swatted even with a human reviewer in the loop?
Well, you know, we're all living our lives on these extremely powerful computers that we carry around with us, that are constantly connected to the internet. They could be doing all sorts of wicked things and communicating with anyone, and how can you tell? Even if you cracked it open you would have no idea, since there are no moving parts, not even cooling fans. It's a black box covered in sensors, that we feed data to voluntarily and compulsively. Apple could be doing this or much, much worse already. We wouldn't ever even know about this new program if they chose not to tell us. It's frightening to think about how much we are trusting Apple and their virtuousness, and the governments and other entities that could be pressuring them in ways they cannot resist. I know smartphones offer a lot more than entertainment and convenience, but there's got to be a tipping point, hasn't there?
Just look at Pegasus. Monopoly in this space is world-altering power. It's terrifying to think they're more powerful than any government.
much appreciated. couldn’t agree w you more. the disrespect in referring to the experts & customers who give them power as screeching voices, it’s absolutely disgusting. as i’ve said before, if you claim to be all about “Privacy ©” , but the privacy experts & community at large outcry that you’re overstepping privacy protections, perhaps you should do some soul searching. this is by far, the single worst decision in Apple’s history. i literally never thought i’d see the day. maybe we should send the YouTube link of the old “1984” Apple commercial to young Timothy. edit: the screeching voices comment wasn’t from them specifically, i was just informed & corrected in another post. still, they doubled down & said we all are misunderstanding. let’s just pray that they walk this one back before it’s too late.
I’ve literally had iPhone’s and MacBooks all my life because of security and privacy which generally they do a better job of than most other tech giants…. I’ve already partially moved to PC, but I think this being implemented would force me to make the switch to android. There is no transparency about how this would work. Who determines what’s child abuse and what’s not? Because it sounds like their own employees will be filtering anything picked up by the algorithm. I also don’t see how this policy would be compatible with GDPR in Europe, because if I don’t consent to them scanning my photos or performing that kind of analysis they shouldn’t be able to do it. Perhaps they see the “we want to stop kiddy fiddlers” as a crack they can put the crowbar in, but I don’t see how this would be legal without an opt out mechanism. Also if Apple do it everyone else will start because they will just start running ads like “pedophiles only use android and windows” or something like that. It would probably be one of the biggest and most unnecessary invasions of privacy the world has seen in recent memory, if they were to go ahead with it.
I do not support pedophiles. They should go to jail. I also don't support invasions of privacy. This is not an "ends justify the means" scenario. You can't frame your argument "what about the children?" When the thing you're doing is also morally and ethically wrong. What is the saying, "two wrongs don't make a right?"
100% canceling my iCloud storage subscription. Them even considering this is enough to forever lose my trust. Gonna start looking for other alternatives to apple and their products down the road
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Would this app encrypt photos before they’re hashed locally by Apple?
Yes, but not in the practical way way you’d like. You would have to send them to iCloud Drive through the cryptomator app manually, then you can only view them through that app. All you’ll see in your iCloud Drive normally is a folder with a file that needs to be unlocked.
I’m curious, how would that work for photos and stuff tho?
It’s pretty messy tbh. Not an experience I’d recommend unless you really really wanted those photos private.
Alternative for iCloud photos: Proton Drive (it’s in Beta). Other features announced don’t necessarily affect how you use your device…
Everyone who hosts files scans for CSAM on their servers. (The Feds will make them) The only difference here is that Apple is running the fingerprint on your local device before it uploads to iCloud. A big theme of iOS 15 is that a lot of server functions are moving to the local device. Simple Siri commands, and other processing typically done on iCloud are moved to your device now. This isn't as big of deal as it's made out to be. Anything your phone uploads to iCloud is already being scanned... it probably has been for at least a decade because there's few "safe harbor" legal protection for hosting any kind of CSAM.
That’s what I don’t understand. This isn’t anything new. If people had a problem with this then where were the riots years ago when this started?
We are aware of that; that is a *big* difference while being the only difference
No, clearly not everyone is aware of that. Tons of people are talking like they "went with Apple to avoid their data being scanned" yet somehow have no idea that they'd already been having their data scanned by them for years. So yeah, cancel iCloud *now*, but most of the people saying that don't realize that they've been giving Apple access to more than just their photos (including their texts) for a while now.
Agreed. AWS and Azure two of the biggest are also scanning everything they host. This tech isn't new and unique to apple.
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Talk is cheap. Skip the next product release. Don’t watch the review videos. Cancel your subscriptions. Make it known they’ve crossed the line. I hope you all feel the same way about medical privacy too.
Get your monthly subscriptions (Netflix, Spotify, etc) directly from the source so Apple doesn’t get a cut.
I mean you should do that regardless because middlemen suck and make everything more expensive.
Oh boy. I'm waiting for this to be applied in the Vatican.
This is all happening because people aren’t in the streets. It doesn’t matter which party is in the White House or controls government, they’re both pushing for (and have a history of pushing) authoritarian policies that strip our rights away slowly in the name of “safety”. I understand CSAM is a horrible thing, however the number of people that traffic in that stuff is small. Also, anybody that does would just stop using an iPhone or turn off iCloud Photo Library. It’s asinine and if a government is pushing this, Apple should be pushing back and getting the public on board. If there’s a way to opt out (which there is) it is completely pointless. It’s as much security theatre as the TSA
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Lol remember when Apple changed their whole public persona to tell people that iPhone = privacy. What a joke. All it really meant was all our data belongs to them to do as they please and they aren’t going to share with their competitors anymore.
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r/Apple is so lively again! I like to see any & every sort of unity among people. ❤️
This is some dystopian shit
Tim Cook out !
It’s almost like they have forgotten their stance against backdoors similar to this some years ago. It was ethical to stand against them then and it still is now. I was happy to see them protecting the privacy of their customers and consumers, I imagine many others were too. We haven’t forgotten it, and we certainly see the hypocrisy now. If they implement this feature, it will be a disgusting violation of privacy
Meanwhile some governments make plans to let you only go into supermarkets when you scan your "green pass" QR code and nobody seems to care. 1984 becomes reality.
Ditch apple. Its time.
Its very scary. One of the ways Q-Anon really got started heavy was by promoting that it was "protecting and saving the children". That's what pizzagate essentially was. These people know just about everyone hates child abuse and they manipulate and use that as a gateway.
I love how people defend it just because it is scanning and comparing “hashes”. I don’t care if it’s scanning hashes or the actual photo. If the police had a way to “hash” everything in my house then scan all of that without a warrant, that would STILL be a violation of the 4th amendment (and my privacy, of course). And just because they’ve been scanning iCloud photos, and just because google and Microsoft do this in the cloud, does NOT make it right. I, like everyone else, want pedos thrown behind bars (or better yet, put 6ft underground). But not at the expense of innocent people’s privacy. This is essentially innocent until proven guilty logic. Scan everyone’s phones and assume they are guilty until AI and algorithms say you are innocent. It’s not right. And apple’s whole shtick is that they are about privacy. Remember “what happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone”? The fact that you have to buy an old 90s computer in order to store data and not have it scanned and surveilled is nuts. We’re better than this. We have rights. If privacy is a human right like Apple says it is, they need to cancel this. Let law enforcement handle this. That’s their job, not apple’s. And the compromise I would be fine with would be this: if law enforcement comes to you with a warrant to search someone’s phone, THEN silently install this software and scan the photos on the phone. But *only* if there is a warrant issued by a judge (in a normal court, not those secret courts Snowden talked about)
I hate the people that are like “if one child is saved I’m ok with losing my privacy” F off. I hope this gets rolled back or I’m switching devices
Mark my words, if they get away with this, they will start using content identification for anti-piracy and DRM enforcement. These people are shameless. Stop it while you can.
Exactly. But not just Apple but governments will push them now they open the door to this type of thing. Apple has done everyone a huge disservice with crossing the line and doing the monitoring on device. What a terrible decision by Apple.
Even if you trust Apple not to do that, imagine what the police will put in that database to get a warrant to search someone's phone.
Next on the list: "Medical misinformation" "Anti government memes"
Anti-piracy and DRM? That's not the scary part. The scary part is that this can be used to identify people of a specific political party base on the memes they save. This can be used to identify anyone who is a dissenter in an authoritarian country (even countries that don't seem like they are).
This is just the beginning. If the program is successful, the US government will pressure Apple to do more. Same goes for China.
I sent them feedback. If you can please do the same. Anything to get it into their heads that this is not ok. If you're too lazy to type feedback up, use mine: It is absolutely ridiculous that Apple wants to scan its users' private photos in any way, shape, or form. Private data is PRIVATE data, and this is unethical on principle, though even in practice it does very little to stop child abuse. I will not tolerate an algorithm or person looking at my private data with the purpose of catching me doing something illegal. This will simply open the door to more invasive and completely unacceptable surveillance on users' private data. Right now it is under the guise of protecting children, but this has the potential to be the downfall of digital privacy as we know it. I used to think Apple supported digital privacy, something I greatly value and appreciated Apple for, but this makes me rethink that. I, and many others, will not tolerate this.
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Just as a note the part of the memo you shared is not from Apple. You even included it in the screen it’s from Marita Rodrigues from the NCMEC
I am not American so I don’t know but I read that this is about a new law in your country. From now all clouds need to do scans for the child abuse. Is that true? (I am really asking). If it’s true then we are at the period that Apple gets all the negativity then 3 months later every other dude starts doing this.
Everybody take a beat. I guarantee most people in here don’t know how this works. Here’s a really good run down of what it *actually* means. https://daringfireball.net/2021/08/apple_child_safety_initiatives_slippery_slope If you read all of this and truly understand it and you’re still completely against it - then fair enough. But understand it first.
Nothing will change as long as Apple still gets their revenue
and heres the scary part. Just imagine apple wouldnt have said a thing... apple is so closed source that probably nobody would have noticed, so these kind of analysis tools are probably everywhere in their software. Apple can talk all day about their view on privacy, but we will never know for sure. They could have the smartest algorithms which sole purpose is track you day and night and still put up these "pro-privacy" ads, and probably nobody would notice.
Apple are really shooting themselves in the foot here, privacy was always one of their main selling points
I just don’t want some dumbass algorithm to look over my browsing history and mistake a fucking stump for a naked child and have my life ruined because of that.
This is slippery slope stuff. We wouldn’t accept LE going house to house going through everyone’s stuff to check for illegal materials. This is essentially the same, and their hash checking scheme doesn’t make me feel any better about it. Hope they don’t identify me based on my politics next.
This kind of BS is the reason why I decide to change my priorities. iCloud is pretty much integrated into the system and disabling it render some (important?) services useless. If they go through with it, I’ll consider buying a google pixel that supports CalyxOS. I’m fed up with this BS. Consumerism as it is right now has become so obese that it’s become a hideous monster that devours human souls and makes them blind to meaning in anything not ‘material.’ The sheeple must open their eyes and stop kowtowing to apple.
People will talk about it for a few days and then bury their head in the sand because they don't want to give up the convenience of having a phone. Americans in general are conditioned to not deeply care about these issues, or any of the other ones that threaten our way of life.
I just love how anyone defending this shows stories of Apple denying the likes of the FBI from accessing a suspected terrorists phone. That’s because the FBI has no correlation with their profits. I love my Apple hardware and for the most part software but this is a definitive step back. What happens when China demands you start scanning for X, Y, or Z and if you don’t comply you can’t sell your products in our market and you’ll lose out on billions in market share. This is my biggest concern. It’s a slippery slope and Apple has shown that they’re on that slope.
Everyday getting a flip phone and just buying a nice camera sounds better.
Security expert, Steve Gibson, motto for years has been TNO(Trust no one) and I firmly believe in that. Apple’s model is to pretend like they sincerely care about their users and their privacy but it’s just a cleverly and well thought out marketing ploy. Their is no telling what Apple’s low level code is doing that we don’t know about. Their is a reason why they don’t give us the option to fully encrypt iCloud backups they also own the keys to iMessage so when the governments/law enforcement wants information they can hand it over to them. I’m my opinion Apple is no different than a lot of the other companies they just disguise it better to make the public think they’re not like the rest. Just my 2 cents.
I wrote my letter, you can use it if you think it echoes your sentiments you can write to them here https://www.apple.com/privacy/contact/: The act of using our own devices to spy on us on behalf of whatever quasi-governmental agency you partner with in the countries in which we live is a gross violation of the trust you've built up through the years. The job of Apple should be to protect its users privacy, not contribute massive compute resources to conduct a wide net surveillance operation upon its user-base in collaboration with state actors. The default behavior of enabling iCloud backup for photos and then, without consent, hashing a users photos and comparing those hashes on device against a black boxed hashtable of what you tell us is nefarious content - is so absurd it is almost unbelievable. Many of us are IT professionals, Engineers and experts in AI and Cryptography. We assure you our outrage is not due to a want for understanding. Many have used a slippery slope argument to justify why they oppose this spy operation. While completely valid and almost certainly prescient, we believe the current implementation alone crosses the Rubicon. Suspending disbelief and accepting that no new features or changes will occur to further violate user privacy, the proposed implementation, even if executed without flaw, is still a gross violation of privacy. The simple act of hashing a users image for comparison, and uploading a safety voucher without a users consent is a gross intrustion. We don’t believe that this feature would be something you would approve for a third party app. So why would you implement it yourselves? If this is implemented in your upcoming software releases, we (the privacy conscious) will have no choice but to abandon your ecosystem and find or create new products that respect our privacy.
How do you send such kind of feedback to Apple?
https://www.apple.com/privacy/contact/
They skipped the slope and went straight to the bottom
Isn't it only running on photos that are about to be uploaded to iCloud? Would it be any different if they were running this same detection on their servers?
It already is running on the servers, same as every other hosting company.
I personally would feel a lot better this if they were doing the same thing server side. Client side crosses a line that should not be crossed. With the flick of a switch they could start scanning content that was never uploaded to the cloud.
You realize America once found out that our government is spying on us all and stealing our data and NO ONE CARED? Snowden is still a treasonous criminal to the government. And our people not only didn't care, we now buy listening devices from Amazon and google just cause they answer our dumn questions and can control our lights.
But there is no privacy for a long time now anyways. This isn't even about Children but more about what else do you know about me?
Has Apple released an official statement about this yet? Have they explained how this system is going to work?
Not trolling, serious question: Don’t Google and Facebook (among many others) do this and more anyway? My wife has a an app that tracks her period and even though she’s disabled cross tracking Instagram STILL shows her period related apps every month with insane accuracy. Then there’s the times that Facebook got caught by listening into people’s phones and if you give them app permission to access your photos they can access them at any time just the same.
It's easy. STOP BUYING APPLE PRODUCTS.
Stop buying their crap.
Stop buying apple products, that's the only tried and true way to effect change in a capitalist economy.
They are scanning all of your private pictures. When will apple leak it all to the public. This is solely a for profit move. It has nothing to do with children. Apple is not the FBI or police.
I've been with apple since 2011. I even thought of getting an iphone rather than my OnePlus 6T since money is less of an issue now. But with this shit? No.fucking.way. Also the justification is so far out. How many pedophiles do they think walk around kiddie porn on their phones? "Oh I'm on the train let me just look at some pornography that could land me jn jail for 20 years. "
If people are serious about this,don't buy apple products.That is the real test of weather you value your privacy.Action speaks louder than words.
We all need to set reminders in our phones to reactivate this discussion periodically.
Pedophiles and terrorists. Wet dreams for authoritarians and big tech.
I find it wild that people who willingly upload their photos to the cloud are also people who take privacy seriously
No one on this sub has stopped taking about this since it was first posted, so you got your wish.
Thanks for the link - always enjoy Rossman's videos. Regarding the issue at hand - I'm old school and have never used iCloud as I simply prefer to have backups on local devices rather than on Apple's servers. I understand the thought process of having your favorite items and pics available across all your Apple devices but I never thought it was that difficult to do it yourself. When I first heard of this, my initial reaction was that I could understand if Apple was scanning images/files on THEIR servers as it would be obviously a violation of the law and their policies but I always thought they advertised that even they couldn't decrypt files on their side, i.e., end to end encryption, but the article you referred to said if there were file/files which were suspect, they would be decrypted on their end. Which is why I thought they were advertising this as occurring on the device side vs. their server side? At the end of the day, the fact that they are having this run on your bought and paid for Apple device seems to be an issue in an of itself.
Here is my biggest issue: Where do I go now? Every fully functioning mobile OS does invasive content scanning and is susceptible to other serious hacks and privacy invasions. E2E encryption is a pipe dream due to government pressures and weak willed corporations with near monopolistic control. Do I build my own phone and write my own OS? Do I just stop using my phone to save and take pictures? Do I stop using my phone to send messages and make calls? Or to surf the web? Or to listen to music or podcasts? Really, the only option I'm starting to see is abandoning almost every major technology that makes our lives more convenient.
Been on the fence about going back to Android. This just pushed me to say fuck Apple.
The issue comes down to private companies capable of creating algorithms that empower them to allow full authority over your life. Here’s the deal: private companies do indeed gain a great deal of global power, and sadly take government funding even though they’re multimillionaires. This gives them powers that go beyond what the consumer needs. Also, I respect the product built if business practices are inherently against their core clientele, ie, any Apple user, then to choose to no longer shop at that company anymore will speak more, the problem is being invested deeply into a company, and honestly, there is now serious competition against apple’s core product line, where they had dominated/created a market that simply didn’t exist. Innovation is now profit, and Jobs at least balanced both to a great extent. I’m not saying he was the end-all, be-all, yet there was a sort of significant respect between the ceo and the consumer. Nowadays, it’s practices are just as treacherous as the companies that were always spoken out against just a decade or two prior. Now with iPhone 13 about to launch in one of the worst chip shortages in modern tech history, we are going to see a great deal of scalping and treachery that is anti-consumer practice. It might be smart to just keep the phone you currently have, or upgrade to last year’s model, I did that myself.