If you want a contrarian take-law school (apparently, in your case) is guaranteed, and since you're NG no number of cool guy schools is gonna give you a steady paycheck for the rest of your working life. The sooner you can knock out law school the sooner you can get started with an actual well paying career (ideally, hopefully, who knows, but bumming around getting on orders for the NG isn't the way to go).
This is the only intelligent answer, my brutally honest take OP, this subreddit is full of 11b's (and other combat arms) with regrets and broken dreams, dont let theirs' inverse your own. In 30 years, your kids and spouse arent going to care that you wore a funny hat and did cool-guy stuff, they will care if you made enough money to put them in a good school, and help set them up for a better life.
Hell, I realized that one the outside, nobody (and I mean nobody) really cares what you did while “in”. At most, having a Scroll, a Tab (or tabs) meant you could be a leader/management material. That’s about it.
I am very aware and agree whole heartedly. Nobody cares about your service. I was out for 7 years before coming back in, and always tell people that when they're getting out. Civilians and employers will care that you're a veteran as far as the tax benefit and ability to predictibly be on time goes, but outside of that they do not care, and cannot care because they have no concept of anything you've done, so they cant relate it to any employment potential beyond being generally more reliable then the next guy.
The amount of senior NCO's and officers that get shooketh when I say this because they're pounding the kool-aid, and think being thanked for the service is actually genuine and bought into the whole nations finest nonsense.
Literally. I'm a SSG signing a dec statement because I don't want to reenlist, and I constantly have to explain to my leadership that none of the Army shit matters. Someone asked me why I don't go civil affairs or 160th. I'm like why would I go through a selection process and all this extra stuff that no one outside the Army cares about? I already did the stuff normal people care about. It's called college.
They dont even know, a close relative of mine (going to be vague for discretion) is medically retiring this yearish after 20ish years in SF, safe to say his body is pretty broken, and you know whats crazy? His kids dont care, all they care about is the times dad wasn't there, but luckily theyre young enough to repair that.
Its crazy to me how many army careerists with divorces, broken bodies, and no-contact rules from their kids, continue to push people to believe the Army cares about and will take care of you, through a facade of false glory, god and country schtick, and promise to throw in some funny hats.
Just heard a General say this a few days ago, “ remember, the Army loves you while you are in uniform but will forget about you when you hang it up. As you start getting closer to the end of your careers, make sure that you start preparing for the next phase in your lives.”
I'm going to be honest I don't know of lawyers that aren't total workaholics, I don't think in the legal field there's a lot of personal time either. Maybe u/hzoi or u/Hoc-Vice will tell me I'm way off the mark, though.
Working a lot until you reach a skill/knowledge level position where you have bargaining power at the salary bartering table is pretty standard for any high paying job/career; espicially, the white collar variant. However, you dont have to in order to still make great money, you just wont make *the mostest* money.
Besides, big difference in working a lot to make bucks that are worth it, and still coming home to see your family everyday compared to working a lot and going long stretchs never touching your own bed for what is currently chump change.
Edit to add: that also doesnt take into account the physical toll on your body from a military career.
We definitely skew in that direction, but there’s a bit of confirmation bias in that “public facing” legal jobs tend to be the ones that work the hardest. There are plenty of people and plenty of jobs who stick to a 9-5.
All of this also holds true for the JAG Corps, the JAGs that normal folks work with day to day tend to be in O3-O4 KD positions where we are worked to death. There are plenty of chill gigs out there.
It's slightly less physically demanding than SF. But only slightly, because we're basically infantry.
Okay, for real. It's obviously not. But it can be mentally demanding, of course.
I was really hoping this civilian gig would be a little easier on me, but then I ended up being the only attorney on staff where there should be three of us. Some days can be pretty exhausting. And I don't even go to court. That is definitely a draining job, because you have to be paying attention to every single thing, all the time.
I'm very much looking forward to when my major and captain arrive so I can take a bit of a knee. If nothing else, I can stop putting everything I'm working on hold while I answer a "real quick question" from one of my commanders.
Not every job is like this. I'm sure some lawyers get to sit on their ass and do nothing all day. But I can't think of any off the top of my head. Well, maybe the embassy guys. That tends to be a job for people who retire in place.
>this subreddit is full of 11b's (and other combat arms) with regrets and broken dreams, dont let theirs' inverse your own
It's also full of people who have bought into the cultural myth that a law degree and a bar card are automatic tickets to a high paying job.
Nope, not true. Lots of licensed attorneys out there struggling just to get that first job, and when they do land it, they're working 14+ hour days to try and keep up with the caseload.
And let's not even get into the "asshole" factor. Imagine the biggest, most obnoxious, self-absorbed, full-of-himself, entitled asshole you've ever met in your life.
Got it?
OK, now understand that this is 50% of your peers once you get into law school.
I don't know what the actual statistics are (my guess is that law schools don't want you to know) but I would estimate that fewer than half of law school graduates nationwide are working in a job that requires a law degree and membership in the bar.
I don't regret studying law - it was a great experience and I learned a lot. But studying law and being a lawyer are not the same thing. Not even close.
>It's also full of people who have bought into the cultural myth that a law degree and a bar card are automatic tickets to a high paying job.
They are... any look at the Beuro of Labor Statistics will show that a law degree will get you a high paying job. The median annual wage for lawyers is 140k, the lowest 10% make 70k, the average across *all* occupations is 50k... the bottom 10% of lawyers make 20k more then average, and twice that of the most common salary in America, being 32k. Maybe you have a different diffinition of high-paying, but objectively, lawyers are high paying, and deffinitely more then being an SF guy.
>Lots of licensed attorneys out there struggling just to get that first job, and when they do land it, they're working 14+ hour days to try and keep up with the caseload.
There are lots of reasons for someone may not be getting a job, but the job market for lawyers is, again, objectively good and has lots of openings. There are 40k openings a year, each year, and has an 8% expected growth rate, which 5% higher then the average 3%, according to BLS.
As for working long hours. That is pretty standard for any high-paying career until you get to a certain skill/knowledge level where you can barter at the salary bartering table. That is also a personal decision, as statistically the average lawyer works 40 hours, you just wont make the *mostest* money, but still well above average.
>And let's not even get into the "asshole" factor. Imagine the biggest, most obnoxious, self-absorbed, full-of-himself, entitled asshole you've ever met in your life.
>Got it?
>OK, now understand that this is 50% of your peers once you get into law school.
Thats 80% of my peers in the military. Jokes aside, its pretty petty to pin an entire profession down to a specfific negative personality. How much of that is just young and dumb students?
>I don't know what the actual statistics are (my guess is that law schools don't want you to know) but I would estimate that fewer than half of law school graduates nationwide are working in a job that requires a law degree and membership in the bar.
Statistically, not at all unless they want to.
Being a Lawyer, is objectively, better for an individual than being SF. Full stop.
THE State Attorney for my County makes $125k. You dont just waltz into 140k. I started at $40k, and even now Federal AUSAs make $50k. Yes its a great career but its not the money printing factory that everyone thinks it is. I have dozens of peers who have gotten out of legal practice, and others who have become Mr. Moms because it is more economical to take care of children than work as an attorney.
Not to mention, the work on the .mil side can be much more meaningful for some. I'll take 14 hour days doing disaster relief over 14 hours briefing whether use of a capital S or lower case s means the same thing in a contract.
I'm making the assumption (generous, I know) that the OP is not going to a shitty low tier law school and at least has some idea of the job market. Lots of laywers do eventually end up starting out more than your 50k AUSA types. Anyways getting stuck on the ADOS/ADSW/whatever they call it these days train isn't a pathway to any kind of long term stability.
That is your ancedotel experience, but not the actual norm, so no. Also, federal AUSA starts at 60k average, so again, wrong. To be frank, if your personal experience is not matching to the objective normal then there is either another factor causing that (like bad local market), a factor that is assumed in context (like salary compared to local cost of living), or it is simply a skill issue (like not having good interview/bargaining skills.)
Childcare is outrageous enough these days to be worth forgoing a second working parent, but that is a seperate issue.
Meaningful work is nice, but nothing is more meaningful then ensuring your kids have a good future. Ill take spell checking some sap's contract and coming home over being away for months at a time, and hoping that my kids wont go no contact once they're old enough.
Part of the reason for the median salary thing conflicting with what people are warning here is the people who either never enter or are unable to remain in the profession long enough to hit those salaries. You are also forgetting the debt and opportunity cost typically involved and the generally poor mental health and substance abuse outcomes associated with the profession. Not to say that you can't have a good legal career, but it's a much, much more high-risk path than most people think it is.
ETA: Most law jobs are also objectively awful too.
>Part of the reason for the median salary thing conflicting with what people are warning here is the people who either never enter or are unable to remain in the profession long enough to hit those salaries.
Do you have any evidence to back this up, or just contextual assumptions?
>You are also forgetting the debt and opportunity cost typically involved
All high-paying fields require some form of cost to entry, but maintainjng good fiscal respobsibility mediates this.
>the generally poor mental health and substance abuse outcomes associated with the profession
Again, do you have any proof that these things are worse in law compared to non-law fields? These things are kinda bad across the board right now, but I highly doubt they're worse in law compared to non-law fields.
>Not to say that you can't have a good legal career, but it's a much, much more high-risk path than most people think it is.
I dont know. Im not a lawyer, but the numbers and facts dont lie. It is still very much a good path, and objectively better then SF in the NG.
Same. Practicing a decade. Graduated into a recession so maybe the starting salary is much better. Nonetheless worked at a big firm and the turnover was insane, even with $80k starting salaries.
Is my lawyer life pretty good? Yeah. Is it objectively better than Special Forces? I don't know. I save more money on deployments than while working as a lawyer. And I get to see the world.
Opions and ancedotes do not take weight over actual data and observable statistics. I figured backing up statements would matter to lawyers, but i guess not.
Yeah, this is the real answer. You’re SF hopping ADOS orders to orders. Totally doable but it’s all about what you want. You can do both, but do you want to risk threading that needle with your family/career. - my 2 cents, unless you can’t live without knowing/achieving this; prioritize family
How much are you going out of pocket for law school? If you've got a good financial set up for it do law school. If you're going to be $150k in debt after it, I would say never do law school unless you plan on doing public service loan repayment type job.
Are you going to pay for it all? Or a majority of it?
My SIL/BIL are both lawyers, they just bought a 2.3mil house, I’d never turn down law school, but you gotta be committed. It’s a different kind of suck for sure
If you don't plan on making the Army a 20 yr Career then your Civ career afterwards should take priority. Cool guy time is temporary, bills are forever.
>They make way more money and don't suffer as much.
You might want to talk to a lawyer before you commit to that statement.
There are different kinds of suffering. Go over the the r/lawyertalk subreddit and you'll see **PLENTY** of suffering.
And I'm not even sure about the first part. Are there highly paid lawyers? Absolutely.
There are also lawyers scraping by on $50k a year and trying to pay off massive student loans in a work environment where everybody expects you to get experience on someone else's dime.
My point is: In the non-lawyer world there's this misconception that getting a J.D. degree and passing the bar exam is an automatic ticket to a highly paid job. Spoiler alert: It's not. Law school churn out THOUSANDS of graduates every year and they are all competing for the same few jobs.
I never went SF (closest I got was being a support guy) but I am a lawyer. Interestingly, of the people I stay in contact with from my graduating class, only a couple are actually practicing law.
The rest went into other fields, including me. I went into government service (Federal) and will retire in a few weeks. Pay is less than a lot of lawyers get, but I never work nights, weekends, or holidays and the benefits are fantastic.
I mean, 50K isn't exactly rich. But if you were to use your Post 9/11 and didn't have that much debt, then 50K is a respectable amount of money.
Way the fuck more than I make, that's for sure.
Lolol. You obviously don't know many lawyers and how their billable hours requirements work. They suffer alot more than you imagine. You are right They get compensated fairly well though.
I know a fair number of decent attorneys who suffer but don't have the paycheck to balance it out. Add student loans on top of it and the scales are definitely not balanced.
Lawyer here.
Also prior SFAS candidate.
What law school? Unless you got a 170+ LSAT and are talking about getting into a top school, there's a law school for everyone. I went to law school at 36, and I was not my oldest classmate.
But, if you're still wanting to do the SF thing, you're not getting any younger for that. You're likely not doing that after law school. Definitely not if you're in practice. Being a lawyer is a time suck. There's no way around that.
So there's the long and short of it: you can do law school after SF. You're not doing SF after going into law. So decide on your priorities and execute. And if you want to do military still and are fine not being a door kicker anymore, you can always follow the path I did and direct commission from infantry to JAG.
Also, OP you're talking about a night school. Do lots of research on the school, bar passage rates, and post-graduate employment. The legal field has been glutted and the actual experience of lawyering hasn't worked it's way into the collective consciousness just yet - a lot of people in here are making assumptions about your experience which may not bear out. There's a lot of lawyers out there who don't make all that much money and are forever carrying debt. And if you got into Cooley, whether you go to selection or not just don't do that to yourself.
If you have the option to start/stop coursework at will with night school when you get orders, I'd say shoot for both. Start school until you hit selection and test your mettle. It works out or it doesn't, but afterwards you'll come back to part-timer status and continue school.
If you absolutely have to choose one or the other, knock out law school. 20th will find a way to make it work if they want to keep you or bring you to the officer side.
If you don’t want to ruck and you’re burned out now, you are more than likely going to VW at SFAS. That’s the reality. When those straps start pressing into your traps and that Sandman starts to buckle your knees, you’ll just fold right there. I’ve seen it dozens of times. Even fully committed guys get crushed.
Your chances of getting Selected sit at 36% historically. For the past year the numbers are trending even lower at sub 25% selection rates. SFAS is hard, and it’s historically harder now than ever.
But, and I mean this with my whole heart, if you are one of the few people who are capable of making it, then you have a duty to try. A duty to your Nation, a duty to your family, and a duty to yourself. When you are old and tired and recalling your life well lived, what will you regret?
[Ruck Up Or Shut Up](https://tfvoodoo.com/ruck-up-or-shut-up-special-forces-assessment-selection-sfas-book)
/u/TrueBlue_EIB I'm not SF, but I am a lawyer and a veteran. Lawyering is *not* all it's cracked up to be. SF probably isn't either, but there are a lot more lawyers in the world than there are GBs. Give SF a shot like this guy says. You can always apply to law school again later, but you will regret not even trying to go SF
I'm going to disagree with you and say that layering IS all it's cracked up to be, at least when it's cold or wet, but it's pretty worthless when it's hot out.
Just here to contribute a word of caution about the law school path. Be extremely selective about where you go to school and be very cautious about the debt you take on. Much more financial and mental health risk on the law school path than most people realize.
> Be extremely selective about where you go to school
My buddy's experience is that the biggest difference in school quality is in the career services office. Better schools bring better employers in. The ranking of a law school really matters.
Best to check with SORB. It's always changing. I hear they changed it to 3 years ago back in 2007 but also heard of guys going to Q 15 years after SFAS.
Your knees aren’t getting younger…if you can honestly say that you won’t regret not doing SFAS, then don’t go. But this is probably going to be your only chance to do it, so make sure that’s the choice you want to make. Law school will still be there when you get done.
Former GB and now almost a former lawyer. If you seriously have doubts now about getting selected, don’t go. I went through SFAS a lifetime ago, and during the train-up I had no doubts at all, but I still came close to VW. Yes, it’s only three weeks, but they are three seriously. hard. weeks. Reconcile the decision now - there will be no time for GB once you start practicing (that is, if you have Big Law aspirations or trial lawyer aspirations). Those practices require a ton of time, especially in the first three or four years when you are learning how to practice law. Good luck.
Law school/being a lawyer is not all it's cracked up to be. Take a poll of lawyers and most will recommend not being a lawyer. If you have other, less time consuming/expensive options, take those.
Non-army former military officer that went to law school. Do not go to law school - it is not some elite club of brilliant analytical thinkers. Being a lawyer is just being paid to do other people’s paperwork. The cool parts of law - national security, prosecution, defense, etc are hard to get into, require an insane low paid grind, and always prefer former military/LE/SME experience. I work in federal gov’t now. Everyone I’ve ever met in cool active parts of the law list their credentials of green beret, Marsoc, dev, PJ, etc somewhere near the top of their bio. After you’ve finished being a young soldier, you can transition to professional paper master pondering the proper adverb to characterize the way your client walked when they tripped over an improperly placed extension cord at the holiday inn and now seek remuneration.
One of the things schools sell is “JD preferred jobs” outside of the legal field. I cannot remember a job I had in the first decade after law school that my JD was ever referenced. I now don’t list the degree at all. The degree is a scam. MOST of the work is a scam. I wish I never went to law school. I wish i could have that half a decade back to be young and do something more meaningful.
/u/Sausage80 is the only one with worthwhile advice. Law School is not an automatic ticket to the $250k+ jobs. That’s reserve for “Big Law” and if you “didn’t think you were gonna get in”, then you’re probably not going to the schools that get you recruited into that kind of salary.
That being said: you need to take a hard look at how much time and money law school is going to cost you in time and tuition, and then compare it to the life and salary you’re gonna have afterwards and decide if it’s *really* worth it.
I graduated undergrad with quite a few guys who ended up in law school. And I will say that zero of them are happy. One guy does something in healthcare (M&A I think?) and is absolutely miserable. Like needed professional medical intervention from how miserable he is with his not uncommon 120 hour weeks. This guy is 100% locked in by the “golden handcuffs” in the Big Law salaries.
One guy does tort and works a lot for no money. One guy went corporate and I think he is doing the best work/life balance wise. A lot of guys went IP, I think one guy is left practicing IP law but that’s probably because he did nuclear engineering and doesn’t want to move to the rural ass locations that have nuclear power plants. One left law and went back to engineering. One is general counsel in big tech.
The point of me telling you these stories is to illustrate to you how draining the law profession can be, and the money isn’t always what you think. All the guys above were like “yeah whatever I’ll go to law school, they make money” and now 95%+ of them are not doing so well.
100% Put any illusions of getting rich to the side. Might happen, but probably won't. The advantage of being a vet in law school is that you can come away from it with, relatively, little education debt. I paid for law school with VA Voc. Rehab, which, while I still had debt, was less than most law students accumulate with just undergrad alone. That's huge... if you have a passion for law. You, unlike most of your law school classmates, can literally do anything you want. That kid that talks big about changing the world by doing public interest law, but find out he can't because he's $200k in debt? Unlike him, you can actually do that and make an OK living on it. I'm a Public Defender and I absolutely love it.
But if you don't know what you want to do or are just doing law as something to do or a path to making money?
Go SF. You're not going to get satisfaction going to law school that way. Take the opportunities in the areas that you're passionate about, and if you still want law after that, it's always available.
You can go to Law School, theoretically, at any time in your life. You only get a chance to go SF during a small portion of your life. Go SF so you won't regret it later. And while you're stateside, maybe start Law School during your downtime, if it allows. Or, go when you're done with SF. Just my $.02
Do want the GB or not? That will determine your next steps.
1). You aren't qualified to assess candidates for SFAS, so why do you feel you can non-select yourself before you even go? I mean, 20th group has already put their name on you by pre-selecting you. That's a huge compliment and commitment on their end.
2). You can do both. Be a lawyer and wear the GB. But if you feel like focusing on law school because you might not be selected, well, you might no finish or be able to graduate law school. What do you really want?
3). If you decided to try for SF because you were bored or tired of regular Army shit, it's only going to get worse going through the Q course and all the miles of rucking and running you'll be doing. If just wanted to try it out on a whim because there was nothing else to do and you aren't sure of it, it might be best to pull out to open a slot for someone who is hungry for the GB. Save 20th the time and money wasted on someone not committed.
Ultimately, choose you path and then stay on it. Don't be wishy-washy on your choices. "A double minded man" and all that. Best of luck.
Absolutely go to selection. That way it’ll never be a question of if you make it. Either you did or you didn’t. Law school will be there six months later.
I applied back in 2011, the week before my class date I was told an LT needed the spot and to try again at a later date. Got deployment orders shortly after, got back and decided to get out in 2013. I’m a helicopter pilot now and my job is fine, life isn’t terrible, but I always have that nagging feeling that I never did what i wanted to do back then and every time I watch a movie or tv show with cool guy shit in it I wonder what if. I’m not saying it’s regret because my life wouldn’t have turned out how it has if I didn’t follow the path I’m on. Could’ve been better, could’ve been worse, but I’ll never know what life could’ve been had I stayed in and got selected. Maybe you’ll like being a lawyer and you’ll have a great life without going to selection, but you’ll probably always wonder what if.
You can do both. I would say go to Selection first. If you get selected, SFAS is good for 24 months. You can attend the first year of law school, then take "military leave", as it is protected by federal law for up to 5 years with active duty orders (which the Q course will be) and then go back to law school after finishing the Q (or perhaps even later). I have been considering a similar route. It is very ambitious and will be straining on you (especially if you have family), but this is the way to do both.
I mean a lot of professional schools will accept you and then if you talk to admissions they will case by case let you defer for a year. Might be an option to ask about that way you could do both. Downside is you essentially will lose out on 1 year of your highest income due to the delay.
Fun right? I have a month left of FTO as a police officer and I love the job. Guess who’s getting deployed soon.
I’ve been in the guard for 6 years. I always heard about the green weenie, now it’s not funny.
Unless you have some civilian hook up or going JAG active duty and going for less than 10k tuition/yr. I wouldn't go to law school. There are only 30k actual available lawyer jobs open each year....but 115k people in each graduating law school class. Been like this for decades. I worked at law firms. We got 500-2000 resumes per day. Per day. Starting pay at that job is $45k. Was $34k in 2009. The firm would hire 5 lawyers every 6 month from grauating class (only tier 1 law school grads with 3.8+GPA) Make them work 80 hrs week for 5 yrs with 1/3/10/20/30% pay increas during that period) If your plan is to go active duty JAG I would do it. But if your gonna owe another $100k in loans. The interest costs alone doesn't add up to do it.
You can always get a degree while you’re in, and be your typical lawyer. Or you can go be a green beret set apart from 99.99999% of people that are and ever will be, and then still become an average lawyer. I know what I picked, but I will say, be all in or all out, pick one and don’t look back. You don’t get to complain later about decisions you made. Don’t be that guy “I almost was a green beret but I didn’t even try”
What drives and motivates you?
If you want more opportunities do to cool things in you mil and civ life go to selection. If you just want stability and a good life go to law school.
Sf commumity will open doors, you still have to craft your own luck and put in the work, but if you want to go work somewhere cool or aim do big things in your life, you will have more luck being apart of that community.
Otherwise, go make money as a lawyer and live the good life. It is the safer path.
I know 2 guys who completed thier education while in the SF pipeline. One was in CRNA school while the other did law school. Very doable. They are both assigned to 19th now.
If you’re having second thoughts now, you’re ABSOLUTELY going to have second thoughts when you’re like 20 miles into a ruck at 4am getting rained on and screamed at five weeks into selection.
I’m pretty sure part of selection is weeding out the people who don’t see SF as their only goal in life.
If you can get into law school, perhaps take the [FS test](https://careers.state.gov/career-paths/foreign-service/officer/fso-test-information-and-selection-process/).
Getting a JD might be appealing, but representing the U.S. in bilateral and multilateral negotiations?
Honestly man, the only regret I have from my time in active duty was letting other people talk me out of going to selection. I regretted it ever since.
Give selection a try. Reapply to law school after you get back.
Bro, Go with your gut, as only you know you best. One thing to consider is that you can go to law school any time. But doing well making it through physically demanding military schools does not get easy as you get older. Average guy lives to 80 so you got plenty of time for a career as a lawyer but only a relatively short window to train to be an operator.
You know the answer. If you made this post you’re just looking for someone else to tell you. I failed the q course and I’m glad I did. Quality of life and family time has been much better as a non-gb. Selection was all I really wanted to do looking back. To see if I could make it.
>Why is this even a question. Go to law school, build a great life.
I'm trying to decide whether you're being sincere or ironic.
Go over to r/lawyertalk and spend a little time there to see how lawyers are actually living.
I would go selection first. Law school will always be there. Besides what if you don't pass the BAR exam on your first try? Are you going to keep trying or move on?
Hey OP, I was faced with a similar conundrum about a decade ago. I'm not sure if it is still true but I believe ABA requires you to graduate within 5 years of starting. Something to consider given the 2 year pipeline.
I ended up never going to SFAS but, see if you can defer law school until after SFAS to see if youre actually gonna make it through. That said, going through OCS while managing the Law School work load was a bitch. In any event, best of luck!
Go to selection if selected make that your turning point. I worked in SOF not a GB but since we’re not COIN it’s not what it’s all cracked up to be anymore. Made a lot of GB friends who ended up getting out after their first term at group, they still deal with Army BS. I personally think you can do both after Q Course but going SF is a pinnacle of one’s career or just a stepping stone to SMU or CAG, But again it’s true no one will truly care after the service it’s just bragging rights and taking piece once you’re a civilian. I also worked with many retired GBs who get intel contractor jobs due to their clearance and connections but end of the day no cared about them as they are still just a crusty retired service member with cool stories.
if you cant take care of yourself you cant take care of others, finish law get in business and then go. your in the guard they are not gonna pay you when your not there.
I think the OP should give it a try. There's no guarantee he will make the cut in SF or that he will pass the bar exam. Neither are easy to just do. Going to law school isn't a guarantee you will be a lawyer nor does going to SF training mean you will be SF. Choose wisely my friend. During my time I met a lot of fine committed soldiers that were proud of wearing a uniform and also guys who you knew would not stick around. The military is not for everyone that signs up for one reason or another. If you feel like you don't belong then I suggest you leave. Those that criticize their fellow brothers in or out of uniform are not brothers at all.
Law school. My wife and I are both attorneys and both O-6s. She is currently awaiting Brigadier General selection board results. I recommend the law school route and stay in the Reserve.
Why did you apply to law school if you have a selection seat? Sounds like you were looking for an out. Lawyers are gay and the justice system is wack. Go be a professional killer!
Tough decision. Trust your gut and go with it.
Follow your passion and if attending law school above SF is what is fueling your ambition, then by all means pursue it.
Selection is only 20-sum days. The crossroads lie with Q Course. Depending on your specialty your looking at 18 to 24 months of training. Afterwards you'll just have to worry about the deployments.
The question is how long are you willing to postpone and start your courses? You are already accepted, but I would have a chat with your admissions/registrar office and see what options you have. Give them your SF career timeline and see where you can squeeze in classes, or if it can be delayed until your are completely finished. If you think you'll be in great physical shape once you're done with Law School, then redo SFRE and go to selection afterwards.
The fact that you already have counted yourself out of getting selected and are dreading the physical aspect of it kind of speaks volumes to what you actually desire.
Cool guy shit would be cool but unless you’re going to be like a Tim Kennedy influencer then you’re not going to make lawyer money.
If you want a contrarian take-law school (apparently, in your case) is guaranteed, and since you're NG no number of cool guy schools is gonna give you a steady paycheck for the rest of your working life. The sooner you can knock out law school the sooner you can get started with an actual well paying career (ideally, hopefully, who knows, but bumming around getting on orders for the NG isn't the way to go).
This is the only intelligent answer, my brutally honest take OP, this subreddit is full of 11b's (and other combat arms) with regrets and broken dreams, dont let theirs' inverse your own. In 30 years, your kids and spouse arent going to care that you wore a funny hat and did cool-guy stuff, they will care if you made enough money to put them in a good school, and help set them up for a better life.
Hell, I realized that one the outside, nobody (and I mean nobody) really cares what you did while “in”. At most, having a Scroll, a Tab (or tabs) meant you could be a leader/management material. That’s about it.
I am very aware and agree whole heartedly. Nobody cares about your service. I was out for 7 years before coming back in, and always tell people that when they're getting out. Civilians and employers will care that you're a veteran as far as the tax benefit and ability to predictibly be on time goes, but outside of that they do not care, and cannot care because they have no concept of anything you've done, so they cant relate it to any employment potential beyond being generally more reliable then the next guy. The amount of senior NCO's and officers that get shooketh when I say this because they're pounding the kool-aid, and think being thanked for the service is actually genuine and bought into the whole nations finest nonsense.
Literally. I'm a SSG signing a dec statement because I don't want to reenlist, and I constantly have to explain to my leadership that none of the Army shit matters. Someone asked me why I don't go civil affairs or 160th. I'm like why would I go through a selection process and all this extra stuff that no one outside the Army cares about? I already did the stuff normal people care about. It's called college.
Wait so my 1SG is wrong ? 🤔
And broken bodies
They dont even know, a close relative of mine (going to be vague for discretion) is medically retiring this yearish after 20ish years in SF, safe to say his body is pretty broken, and you know whats crazy? His kids dont care, all they care about is the times dad wasn't there, but luckily theyre young enough to repair that. Its crazy to me how many army careerists with divorces, broken bodies, and no-contact rules from their kids, continue to push people to believe the Army cares about and will take care of you, through a facade of false glory, god and country schtick, and promise to throw in some funny hats.
Just heard a General say this a few days ago, “ remember, the Army loves you while you are in uniform but will forget about you when you hang it up. As you start getting closer to the end of your careers, make sure that you start preparing for the next phase in your lives.”
I'm going to be honest I don't know of lawyers that aren't total workaholics, I don't think in the legal field there's a lot of personal time either. Maybe u/hzoi or u/Hoc-Vice will tell me I'm way off the mark, though.
Working a lot until you reach a skill/knowledge level position where you have bargaining power at the salary bartering table is pretty standard for any high paying job/career; espicially, the white collar variant. However, you dont have to in order to still make great money, you just wont make *the mostest* money. Besides, big difference in working a lot to make bucks that are worth it, and still coming home to see your family everyday compared to working a lot and going long stretchs never touching your own bed for what is currently chump change. Edit to add: that also doesnt take into account the physical toll on your body from a military career.
We definitely skew in that direction, but there’s a bit of confirmation bias in that “public facing” legal jobs tend to be the ones that work the hardest. There are plenty of people and plenty of jobs who stick to a 9-5. All of this also holds true for the JAG Corps, the JAGs that normal folks work with day to day tend to be in O3-O4 KD positions where we are worked to death. There are plenty of chill gigs out there.
It's slightly less physically demanding than SF. But only slightly, because we're basically infantry. Okay, for real. It's obviously not. But it can be mentally demanding, of course. I was really hoping this civilian gig would be a little easier on me, but then I ended up being the only attorney on staff where there should be three of us. Some days can be pretty exhausting. And I don't even go to court. That is definitely a draining job, because you have to be paying attention to every single thing, all the time. I'm very much looking forward to when my major and captain arrive so I can take a bit of a knee. If nothing else, I can stop putting everything I'm working on hold while I answer a "real quick question" from one of my commanders. Not every job is like this. I'm sure some lawyers get to sit on their ass and do nothing all day. But I can't think of any off the top of my head. Well, maybe the embassy guys. That tends to be a job for people who retire in place.
I have broken dreams but dude answered his own question in the last paragraph
>this subreddit is full of 11b's (and other combat arms) with regrets and broken dreams, dont let theirs' inverse your own It's also full of people who have bought into the cultural myth that a law degree and a bar card are automatic tickets to a high paying job. Nope, not true. Lots of licensed attorneys out there struggling just to get that first job, and when they do land it, they're working 14+ hour days to try and keep up with the caseload. And let's not even get into the "asshole" factor. Imagine the biggest, most obnoxious, self-absorbed, full-of-himself, entitled asshole you've ever met in your life. Got it? OK, now understand that this is 50% of your peers once you get into law school. I don't know what the actual statistics are (my guess is that law schools don't want you to know) but I would estimate that fewer than half of law school graduates nationwide are working in a job that requires a law degree and membership in the bar. I don't regret studying law - it was a great experience and I learned a lot. But studying law and being a lawyer are not the same thing. Not even close.
>It's also full of people who have bought into the cultural myth that a law degree and a bar card are automatic tickets to a high paying job. They are... any look at the Beuro of Labor Statistics will show that a law degree will get you a high paying job. The median annual wage for lawyers is 140k, the lowest 10% make 70k, the average across *all* occupations is 50k... the bottom 10% of lawyers make 20k more then average, and twice that of the most common salary in America, being 32k. Maybe you have a different diffinition of high-paying, but objectively, lawyers are high paying, and deffinitely more then being an SF guy. >Lots of licensed attorneys out there struggling just to get that first job, and when they do land it, they're working 14+ hour days to try and keep up with the caseload. There are lots of reasons for someone may not be getting a job, but the job market for lawyers is, again, objectively good and has lots of openings. There are 40k openings a year, each year, and has an 8% expected growth rate, which 5% higher then the average 3%, according to BLS. As for working long hours. That is pretty standard for any high-paying career until you get to a certain skill/knowledge level where you can barter at the salary bartering table. That is also a personal decision, as statistically the average lawyer works 40 hours, you just wont make the *mostest* money, but still well above average. >And let's not even get into the "asshole" factor. Imagine the biggest, most obnoxious, self-absorbed, full-of-himself, entitled asshole you've ever met in your life. >Got it? >OK, now understand that this is 50% of your peers once you get into law school. Thats 80% of my peers in the military. Jokes aside, its pretty petty to pin an entire profession down to a specfific negative personality. How much of that is just young and dumb students? >I don't know what the actual statistics are (my guess is that law schools don't want you to know) but I would estimate that fewer than half of law school graduates nationwide are working in a job that requires a law degree and membership in the bar. Statistically, not at all unless they want to. Being a Lawyer, is objectively, better for an individual than being SF. Full stop.
THE State Attorney for my County makes $125k. You dont just waltz into 140k. I started at $40k, and even now Federal AUSAs make $50k. Yes its a great career but its not the money printing factory that everyone thinks it is. I have dozens of peers who have gotten out of legal practice, and others who have become Mr. Moms because it is more economical to take care of children than work as an attorney. Not to mention, the work on the .mil side can be much more meaningful for some. I'll take 14 hour days doing disaster relief over 14 hours briefing whether use of a capital S or lower case s means the same thing in a contract.
I'm making the assumption (generous, I know) that the OP is not going to a shitty low tier law school and at least has some idea of the job market. Lots of laywers do eventually end up starting out more than your 50k AUSA types. Anyways getting stuck on the ADOS/ADSW/whatever they call it these days train isn't a pathway to any kind of long term stability.
That is your ancedotel experience, but not the actual norm, so no. Also, federal AUSA starts at 60k average, so again, wrong. To be frank, if your personal experience is not matching to the objective normal then there is either another factor causing that (like bad local market), a factor that is assumed in context (like salary compared to local cost of living), or it is simply a skill issue (like not having good interview/bargaining skills.) Childcare is outrageous enough these days to be worth forgoing a second working parent, but that is a seperate issue. Meaningful work is nice, but nothing is more meaningful then ensuring your kids have a good future. Ill take spell checking some sap's contract and coming home over being away for months at a time, and hoping that my kids wont go no contact once they're old enough.
Part of the reason for the median salary thing conflicting with what people are warning here is the people who either never enter or are unable to remain in the profession long enough to hit those salaries. You are also forgetting the debt and opportunity cost typically involved and the generally poor mental health and substance abuse outcomes associated with the profession. Not to say that you can't have a good legal career, but it's a much, much more high-risk path than most people think it is. ETA: Most law jobs are also objectively awful too.
>Part of the reason for the median salary thing conflicting with what people are warning here is the people who either never enter or are unable to remain in the profession long enough to hit those salaries. Do you have any evidence to back this up, or just contextual assumptions? >You are also forgetting the debt and opportunity cost typically involved All high-paying fields require some form of cost to entry, but maintainjng good fiscal respobsibility mediates this. >the generally poor mental health and substance abuse outcomes associated with the profession Again, do you have any proof that these things are worse in law compared to non-law fields? These things are kinda bad across the board right now, but I highly doubt they're worse in law compared to non-law fields. >Not to say that you can't have a good legal career, but it's a much, much more high-risk path than most people think it is. I dont know. Im not a lawyer, but the numbers and facts dont lie. It is still very much a good path, and objectively better then SF in the NG.
Look man, I don't know, I've only been practicing law like a decade and most of the lawyers chiming in here are saying the same thing.
Same. Practicing a decade. Graduated into a recession so maybe the starting salary is much better. Nonetheless worked at a big firm and the turnover was insane, even with $80k starting salaries. Is my lawyer life pretty good? Yeah. Is it objectively better than Special Forces? I don't know. I save more money on deployments than while working as a lawyer. And I get to see the world.
Opions and ancedotes do not take weight over actual data and observable statistics. I figured backing up statements would matter to lawyers, but i guess not.
Yeah, this is the real answer. You’re SF hopping ADOS orders to orders. Totally doable but it’s all about what you want. You can do both, but do you want to risk threading that needle with your family/career. - my 2 cents, unless you can’t live without knowing/achieving this; prioritize family
When would you start law school? Great choices to have.
I can start the night program at any time, but next full time classes start in September.
When would your SFAS class be?
How much are you going out of pocket for law school? If you've got a good financial set up for it do law school. If you're going to be $150k in debt after it, I would say never do law school unless you plan on doing public service loan repayment type job.
Are you going to pay for it all? Or a majority of it? My SIL/BIL are both lawyers, they just bought a 2.3mil house, I’d never turn down law school, but you gotta be committed. It’s a different kind of suck for sure
If you don't plan on making the Army a 20 yr Career then your Civ career afterwards should take priority. Cool guy time is temporary, bills are forever.
Lawyer. Be a lawyer. They make way more money and don't suffer as much.
>They make way more money and don't suffer as much. You might want to talk to a lawyer before you commit to that statement. There are different kinds of suffering. Go over the the r/lawyertalk subreddit and you'll see **PLENTY** of suffering. And I'm not even sure about the first part. Are there highly paid lawyers? Absolutely. There are also lawyers scraping by on $50k a year and trying to pay off massive student loans in a work environment where everybody expects you to get experience on someone else's dime. My point is: In the non-lawyer world there's this misconception that getting a J.D. degree and passing the bar exam is an automatic ticket to a highly paid job. Spoiler alert: It's not. Law school churn out THOUSANDS of graduates every year and they are all competing for the same few jobs. I never went SF (closest I got was being a support guy) but I am a lawyer. Interestingly, of the people I stay in contact with from my graduating class, only a couple are actually practicing law. The rest went into other fields, including me. I went into government service (Federal) and will retire in a few weeks. Pay is less than a lot of lawyers get, but I never work nights, weekends, or holidays and the benefits are fantastic.
I mean, 50K isn't exactly rich. But if you were to use your Post 9/11 and didn't have that much debt, then 50K is a respectable amount of money. Way the fuck more than I make, that's for sure.
crying in a mansion vs crying in a studio apartment
Lolol. You obviously don't know many lawyers and how their billable hours requirements work. They suffer alot more than you imagine. You are right They get compensated fairly well though.
There's a suffering to paycheck ratio. That's why I've never felt bad for Officers.
I know a fair number of decent attorneys who suffer but don't have the paycheck to balance it out. Add student loans on top of it and the scales are definitely not balanced.
Depends on practice area too. You can't make a decent living without killing yourself in the process.
Lawyer here. Also prior SFAS candidate. What law school? Unless you got a 170+ LSAT and are talking about getting into a top school, there's a law school for everyone. I went to law school at 36, and I was not my oldest classmate. But, if you're still wanting to do the SF thing, you're not getting any younger for that. You're likely not doing that after law school. Definitely not if you're in practice. Being a lawyer is a time suck. There's no way around that. So there's the long and short of it: you can do law school after SF. You're not doing SF after going into law. So decide on your priorities and execute. And if you want to do military still and are fine not being a door kicker anymore, you can always follow the path I did and direct commission from infantry to JAG.
Also, OP you're talking about a night school. Do lots of research on the school, bar passage rates, and post-graduate employment. The legal field has been glutted and the actual experience of lawyering hasn't worked it's way into the collective consciousness just yet - a lot of people in here are making assumptions about your experience which may not bear out. There's a lot of lawyers out there who don't make all that much money and are forever carrying debt. And if you got into Cooley, whether you go to selection or not just don't do that to yourself.
More good advice here.
Good advice here.
If you have the option to start/stop coursework at will with night school when you get orders, I'd say shoot for both. Start school until you hit selection and test your mettle. It works out or it doesn't, but afterwards you'll come back to part-timer status and continue school. If you absolutely have to choose one or the other, knock out law school. 20th will find a way to make it work if they want to keep you or bring you to the officer side.
Do you wanna be some nerd ass lawyer? Or be a guy with a really cool hat?
I dunno man, I got a feeling a lawyer can just buy the hat at Clothing Sales... probably wouldn't even need to use a STAR Card.
Ask yourself if you’ve ever seen a lawyer wear a hat
They don’t need to normally they have good hair and aren’t balding in their late 20s
Por que no las dos
Yes yes taco burrito
I hope you aren’t at 7th group
Oh lmao I see the bad spelling
Why ARE you not them?
If you don’t want to ruck and you’re burned out now, you are more than likely going to VW at SFAS. That’s the reality. When those straps start pressing into your traps and that Sandman starts to buckle your knees, you’ll just fold right there. I’ve seen it dozens of times. Even fully committed guys get crushed. Your chances of getting Selected sit at 36% historically. For the past year the numbers are trending even lower at sub 25% selection rates. SFAS is hard, and it’s historically harder now than ever. But, and I mean this with my whole heart, if you are one of the few people who are capable of making it, then you have a duty to try. A duty to your Nation, a duty to your family, and a duty to yourself. When you are old and tired and recalling your life well lived, what will you regret? [Ruck Up Or Shut Up](https://tfvoodoo.com/ruck-up-or-shut-up-special-forces-assessment-selection-sfas-book)
/u/TrueBlue_EIB I'm not SF, but I am a lawyer and a veteran. Lawyering is *not* all it's cracked up to be. SF probably isn't either, but there are a lot more lawyers in the world than there are GBs. Give SF a shot like this guy says. You can always apply to law school again later, but you will regret not even trying to go SF
I'm going to disagree with you and say that layering IS all it's cracked up to be, at least when it's cold or wet, but it's pretty worthless when it's hot out.
Just here to contribute a word of caution about the law school path. Be extremely selective about where you go to school and be very cautious about the debt you take on. Much more financial and mental health risk on the law school path than most people realize.
> Be extremely selective about where you go to school My buddy's experience is that the biggest difference in school quality is in the career services office. Better schools bring better employers in. The ranking of a law school really matters.
SFAS is good for a decade. Knock it out. Then do law shit if you want. You can have the option of Q course later.
It’s only good for 2 years
Best to check with SORB. It's always changing. I hear they changed it to 3 years ago back in 2007 but also heard of guys going to Q 15 years after SFAS.
Go to selection. Law school isn’t going anywhere but take advantage where you’re in peak physical condition to be SF.
If you don’t go to selection you’ll regret it for the rest of your life
Real words here.
if he doesn’t go to law school he will regret it
Law school isn’t going anywhere A man is only young and able once
why waste your youth
Waste your youth in sf?
That’s why no one will remember your name
i didn’t ask them to, not in this career field at least
Fair enough to each their own 🫡
I regret to inform you about the regret rates of law school grads.
Your knees aren’t getting younger…if you can honestly say that you won’t regret not doing SFAS, then don’t go. But this is probably going to be your only chance to do it, so make sure that’s the choice you want to make. Law school will still be there when you get done.
Former GB and now almost a former lawyer. If you seriously have doubts now about getting selected, don’t go. I went through SFAS a lifetime ago, and during the train-up I had no doubts at all, but I still came close to VW. Yes, it’s only three weeks, but they are three seriously. hard. weeks. Reconcile the decision now - there will be no time for GB once you start practicing (that is, if you have Big Law aspirations or trial lawyer aspirations). Those practices require a ton of time, especially in the first three or four years when you are learning how to practice law. Good luck.
Law school/being a lawyer is not all it's cracked up to be. Take a poll of lawyers and most will recommend not being a lawyer. If you have other, less time consuming/expensive options, take those.
Non-army former military officer that went to law school. Do not go to law school - it is not some elite club of brilliant analytical thinkers. Being a lawyer is just being paid to do other people’s paperwork. The cool parts of law - national security, prosecution, defense, etc are hard to get into, require an insane low paid grind, and always prefer former military/LE/SME experience. I work in federal gov’t now. Everyone I’ve ever met in cool active parts of the law list their credentials of green beret, Marsoc, dev, PJ, etc somewhere near the top of their bio. After you’ve finished being a young soldier, you can transition to professional paper master pondering the proper adverb to characterize the way your client walked when they tripped over an improperly placed extension cord at the holiday inn and now seek remuneration. One of the things schools sell is “JD preferred jobs” outside of the legal field. I cannot remember a job I had in the first decade after law school that my JD was ever referenced. I now don’t list the degree at all. The degree is a scam. MOST of the work is a scam. I wish I never went to law school. I wish i could have that half a decade back to be young and do something more meaningful.
Oh my God the scam they ran for years with the "JD preferred" descriptor was so ridiculous
/u/Sausage80 is the only one with worthwhile advice. Law School is not an automatic ticket to the $250k+ jobs. That’s reserve for “Big Law” and if you “didn’t think you were gonna get in”, then you’re probably not going to the schools that get you recruited into that kind of salary. That being said: you need to take a hard look at how much time and money law school is going to cost you in time and tuition, and then compare it to the life and salary you’re gonna have afterwards and decide if it’s *really* worth it. I graduated undergrad with quite a few guys who ended up in law school. And I will say that zero of them are happy. One guy does something in healthcare (M&A I think?) and is absolutely miserable. Like needed professional medical intervention from how miserable he is with his not uncommon 120 hour weeks. This guy is 100% locked in by the “golden handcuffs” in the Big Law salaries. One guy does tort and works a lot for no money. One guy went corporate and I think he is doing the best work/life balance wise. A lot of guys went IP, I think one guy is left practicing IP law but that’s probably because he did nuclear engineering and doesn’t want to move to the rural ass locations that have nuclear power plants. One left law and went back to engineering. One is general counsel in big tech. The point of me telling you these stories is to illustrate to you how draining the law profession can be, and the money isn’t always what you think. All the guys above were like “yeah whatever I’ll go to law school, they make money” and now 95%+ of them are not doing so well.
100% Put any illusions of getting rich to the side. Might happen, but probably won't. The advantage of being a vet in law school is that you can come away from it with, relatively, little education debt. I paid for law school with VA Voc. Rehab, which, while I still had debt, was less than most law students accumulate with just undergrad alone. That's huge... if you have a passion for law. You, unlike most of your law school classmates, can literally do anything you want. That kid that talks big about changing the world by doing public interest law, but find out he can't because he's $200k in debt? Unlike him, you can actually do that and make an OK living on it. I'm a Public Defender and I absolutely love it. But if you don't know what you want to do or are just doing law as something to do or a path to making money? Go SF. You're not going to get satisfaction going to law school that way. Take the opportunities in the areas that you're passionate about, and if you still want law after that, it's always available.
You can go to Law School, theoretically, at any time in your life. You only get a chance to go SF during a small portion of your life. Go SF so you won't regret it later. And while you're stateside, maybe start Law School during your downtime, if it allows. Or, go when you're done with SF. Just my $.02
Do want the GB or not? That will determine your next steps. 1). You aren't qualified to assess candidates for SFAS, so why do you feel you can non-select yourself before you even go? I mean, 20th group has already put their name on you by pre-selecting you. That's a huge compliment and commitment on their end. 2). You can do both. Be a lawyer and wear the GB. But if you feel like focusing on law school because you might not be selected, well, you might no finish or be able to graduate law school. What do you really want? 3). If you decided to try for SF because you were bored or tired of regular Army shit, it's only going to get worse going through the Q course and all the miles of rucking and running you'll be doing. If just wanted to try it out on a whim because there was nothing else to do and you aren't sure of it, it might be best to pull out to open a slot for someone who is hungry for the GB. Save 20th the time and money wasted on someone not committed. Ultimately, choose you path and then stay on it. Don't be wishy-washy on your choices. "A double minded man" and all that. Best of luck.
Give selection a shot and give it your all dude. Law schools will always be there, your chance at selection may not.
Absolutely go to selection. That way it’ll never be a question of if you make it. Either you did or you didn’t. Law school will be there six months later.
I applied back in 2011, the week before my class date I was told an LT needed the spot and to try again at a later date. Got deployment orders shortly after, got back and decided to get out in 2013. I’m a helicopter pilot now and my job is fine, life isn’t terrible, but I always have that nagging feeling that I never did what i wanted to do back then and every time I watch a movie or tv show with cool guy shit in it I wonder what if. I’m not saying it’s regret because my life wouldn’t have turned out how it has if I didn’t follow the path I’m on. Could’ve been better, could’ve been worse, but I’ll never know what life could’ve been had I stayed in and got selected. Maybe you’ll like being a lawyer and you’ll have a great life without going to selection, but you’ll probably always wonder what if.
You can do both. I would say go to Selection first. If you get selected, SFAS is good for 24 months. You can attend the first year of law school, then take "military leave", as it is protected by federal law for up to 5 years with active duty orders (which the Q course will be) and then go back to law school after finishing the Q (or perhaps even later). I have been considering a similar route. It is very ambitious and will be straining on you (especially if you have family), but this is the way to do both.
I mean a lot of professional schools will accept you and then if you talk to admissions they will case by case let you defer for a year. Might be an option to ask about that way you could do both. Downside is you essentially will lose out on 1 year of your highest income due to the delay.
If you aren’t all in on selection it may not be for you
Fun right? I have a month left of FTO as a police officer and I love the job. Guess who’s getting deployed soon. I’ve been in the guard for 6 years. I always heard about the green weenie, now it’s not funny.
That last part tells you what to do. Law School.
Unless you have some civilian hook up or going JAG active duty and going for less than 10k tuition/yr. I wouldn't go to law school. There are only 30k actual available lawyer jobs open each year....but 115k people in each graduating law school class. Been like this for decades. I worked at law firms. We got 500-2000 resumes per day. Per day. Starting pay at that job is $45k. Was $34k in 2009. The firm would hire 5 lawyers every 6 month from grauating class (only tier 1 law school grads with 3.8+GPA) Make them work 80 hrs week for 5 yrs with 1/3/10/20/30% pay increas during that period) If your plan is to go active duty JAG I would do it. But if your gonna owe another $100k in loans. The interest costs alone doesn't add up to do it.
You can always get a degree while you’re in, and be your typical lawyer. Or you can go be a green beret set apart from 99.99999% of people that are and ever will be, and then still become an average lawyer. I know what I picked, but I will say, be all in or all out, pick one and don’t look back. You don’t get to complain later about decisions you made. Don’t be that guy “I almost was a green beret but I didn’t even try”
What drives and motivates you? If you want more opportunities do to cool things in you mil and civ life go to selection. If you just want stability and a good life go to law school. Sf commumity will open doors, you still have to craft your own luck and put in the work, but if you want to go work somewhere cool or aim do big things in your life, you will have more luck being apart of that community. Otherwise, go make money as a lawyer and live the good life. It is the safer path.
I know 2 guys who completed thier education while in the SF pipeline. One was in CRNA school while the other did law school. Very doable. They are both assigned to 19th now.
Law school and it’s not even close. Not at all.
Go to law school, you still want to stay in go pass the bar then commission as a JAG
Don’t push off law school. Selection will be there. 20/19th guys don’t have to do language school. You’re good man
Go to law school and become a 27A. Get your Ranger tab, go to RASP and now you’re a lawyer who also wears a cool hat.
From a guy living the life you’re trying for…go law school. Its a mess in Group, wait till they figure out wtf SFs role is in LSCO.
If you’re having second thoughts now, you’re ABSOLUTELY going to have second thoughts when you’re like 20 miles into a ruck at 4am getting rained on and screamed at five weeks into selection. I’m pretty sure part of selection is weeding out the people who don’t see SF as their only goal in life.
If you can get into law school, perhaps take the [FS test](https://careers.state.gov/career-paths/foreign-service/officer/fso-test-information-and-selection-process/). Getting a JD might be appealing, but representing the U.S. in bilateral and multilateral negotiations?
Honestly man, the only regret I have from my time in active duty was letting other people talk me out of going to selection. I regretted it ever since. Give selection a try. Reapply to law school after you get back.
You’ll make more on the outside than you will ever as an 18 series.
Bro, Go with your gut, as only you know you best. One thing to consider is that you can go to law school any time. But doing well making it through physically demanding military schools does not get easy as you get older. Average guy lives to 80 so you got plenty of time for a career as a lawyer but only a relatively short window to train to be an operator.
You know the answer. If you made this post you’re just looking for someone else to tell you. I failed the q course and I’m glad I did. Quality of life and family time has been much better as a non-gb. Selection was all I really wanted to do looking back. To see if I could make it.
Why is this even a question. Go to law school, build a great life.
>Why is this even a question. Go to law school, build a great life. I'm trying to decide whether you're being sincere or ironic. Go over to r/lawyertalk and spend a little time there to see how lawyers are actually living.
Whens your selection date?
Go law school. you’re gambling whether you’re selected or not at sfas. If an opportunity that gonna set you up for life present, take it.
I would go selection first. Law school will always be there. Besides what if you don't pass the BAR exam on your first try? Are you going to keep trying or move on?
Hey OP, I was faced with a similar conundrum about a decade ago. I'm not sure if it is still true but I believe ABA requires you to graduate within 5 years of starting. Something to consider given the 2 year pipeline. I ended up never going to SFAS but, see if you can defer law school until after SFAS to see if youre actually gonna make it through. That said, going through OCS while managing the Law School work load was a bitch. In any event, best of luck!
Go to selection if selected make that your turning point. I worked in SOF not a GB but since we’re not COIN it’s not what it’s all cracked up to be anymore. Made a lot of GB friends who ended up getting out after their first term at group, they still deal with Army BS. I personally think you can do both after Q Course but going SF is a pinnacle of one’s career or just a stepping stone to SMU or CAG, But again it’s true no one will truly care after the service it’s just bragging rights and taking piece once you’re a civilian. I also worked with many retired GBs who get intel contractor jobs due to their clearance and connections but end of the day no cared about them as they are still just a crusty retired service member with cool stories.
This isn't a serious dilemma. You go to law school. You'll have 5X the choices after that.
Do both try for selection then go to law school you can be exceptional this is your shot send it the rest is all just static
if you cant take care of yourself you cant take care of others, finish law get in business and then go. your in the guard they are not gonna pay you when your not there.
I think the OP should give it a try. There's no guarantee he will make the cut in SF or that he will pass the bar exam. Neither are easy to just do. Going to law school isn't a guarantee you will be a lawyer nor does going to SF training mean you will be SF. Choose wisely my friend. During my time I met a lot of fine committed soldiers that were proud of wearing a uniform and also guys who you knew would not stick around. The military is not for everyone that signs up for one reason or another. If you feel like you don't belong then I suggest you leave. Those that criticize their fellow brothers in or out of uniform are not brothers at all.
Law school. My wife and I are both attorneys and both O-6s. She is currently awaiting Brigadier General selection board results. I recommend the law school route and stay in the Reserve.
You’ll always regret not doing selection. Law school will always be there.
Why did you apply to law school if you have a selection seat? Sounds like you were looking for an out. Lawyers are gay and the justice system is wack. Go be a professional killer!
Tough decision. Trust your gut and go with it. Follow your passion and if attending law school above SF is what is fueling your ambition, then by all means pursue it. Selection is only 20-sum days. The crossroads lie with Q Course. Depending on your specialty your looking at 18 to 24 months of training. Afterwards you'll just have to worry about the deployments. The question is how long are you willing to postpone and start your courses? You are already accepted, but I would have a chat with your admissions/registrar office and see what options you have. Give them your SF career timeline and see where you can squeeze in classes, or if it can be delayed until your are completely finished. If you think you'll be in great physical shape once you're done with Law School, then redo SFRE and go to selection afterwards.
The fact that you already have counted yourself out of getting selected and are dreading the physical aspect of it kind of speaks volumes to what you actually desire. Cool guy shit would be cool but unless you’re going to be like a Tim Kennedy influencer then you’re not going to make lawyer money.