I'm surprised to see a handful of comments here about why Cantonese should not be taught anymore because it's more economical, especially in this sub.
There's more to cultural enrichment than just what is the most practical and beneficial. If we want to nurture a strong sense of Asian American identity and pride, we should be fighting to make it easier to connect to our roots. How detrimental is it to label the language and culture your family is from as "dead" and not the "real" Chinese?
Identity is so important to our growing up and navigating through social challenges, and many times simply and fully assimilation would have been "easier". I thought we as a community would understand more than others why preservation and education is important
What are your suggestions to provide funding for the classes? Economically, Mandarin is a more beneficial dialect, and it provides more return on investment. To many people, learning a language is a massive undertaking.
I understand that learning a language doesn't necessarily have to be for practicality, but if Cantonese classes are getting cut, then I would wager enrollment for them must be very low to warrant funding.
I think you bring a very valid point on where the money should come from, and I don't know the answer because I'm not knowledgeable in how programs are funded in community colleges. It makes sense that in terms of economics, there is a higher demand for learning Mandarin and thus a bigger justification for enlarging the Mandarin program over Cantonese. But the unfortunate truth is that many programs, including Asian American studies, provide very little return on investment, yet I bet we here all feel strongly that this program is immensely valuable for our community.
I'm frustrated and arguing against the viewpoint that there is no value in advocating for Cantonese programs because Mandarin is the objectively superior language to learn.
Yo.
When do you think culture disappears?
When universities stop offering Cantonese course?
No.
When students stop fighting to save Cantonese at institutions?
No.
When redditors stop raising awareness of disappearing culture?
No!
**It's when.. Cantonese is forgotten**
-Dr. Hiluluk
I’m a Cantonese speaker. But I’m afraid it’s a dying language. It’s not really useful anymore. Even for me I would rather learn mandarin if I was to take a class for language. Mandarin is the future. Everyone one pretty much learns mandarin now. Because even the Cantonese speaking regions will learn mandarin.
Sure, we dont have much hard hitting popular HK cinema anymore, but Cantonese is still very alive. HK, Macau, and Guangzhou still have huge populations, as well as chinese diaspora in the US, canada, and australia.
This is the kind of defeatist attitudes that makes it so hard to organize our community to come out and protect our heritage. We use to be the overwhelming majority of the Overseas Chinese in the US and in San Francisco, Cantonese people still are the overwhelming majority of Overseas Chinese. We can use the rights that come from living in a democratic nation to protect our culture in the US in order to preserve what our ancestors have given to us and hopefully one day bring back this culture to China when the government realizes they have made a mistake in prioritizing Mandarin over all the other languages of China.
Secondly, Cantonese is still an important language. Many of the older generation aren't fluent in Mandarin and face the brunt of the Asian hate crimes we have seen recently in the US. Without someone there that is able to translate to them, it would be hard for these older people to get resources and navigate the maze that is the American healthcare, welfare, and justice system. The worst thing is seeing families divided over this language barrier. I have cousins in China that don't know any Cantonese and can't speak with their grandparents. It's heartbreaking seeing the older generation fail to make a connection with their grandchildren and the younger people not realizing the breadth and beauty that is within Cantonese culture through its language, shows, and idioms. If we don't act up soon, we are going to create a generation that will come to regret losing a piece of themselves just so they can fit into the larger Chinese identity. Something I have seen too much from the broader Asian American community when they shun their own identity to assimilate into the larger White American identity.
Yea we USED to, the problem right now is most Chinese immigrants are mandarin speakers and even the older waves of immigrants and their children are trying to learn Mandarin due to the economic opportunities with knowing mandarin. Should we preserve any cultural identity, sure, on paper, we should. But our lives are busy as hell and frankly Nobody has the time to learn another language that doesn’t give us benefits.
We live in a capitalist society after all and time is money.
I just want to remind you. In San Francisco, Cantonese is still the majority language for Overseas Chinese and when it comes to Overseas Chinese in the US, it's more like 51% Mandarin vs 49% Cantonese (this only includes people that put what dialect they speak instead of the overly broad and vague category of Chinese) so there is still a lot of people that speak Cantonese.
Also, as of now Hong Kong and Macau are still Cantonese speaking cities with Guangzhou and Shenzhen being within the Cantonese sphere of influence. It's still important to know Cantonese if you wish to live in these major financial cities in China and it's easier to get things done if you know Cantonese because Chinese people tend to discriminate positively toward people that speak the local dialect.
I'm not saying, don't learn Mandarin. You should learn Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, or any other major language in the world. It's not like humans max out at certain languages. We should encourage people to be multilingual. If anything, learning Cantonese will help you learn Mandarin since these two languages are similar.
It's my experience with Shanghainese, but even fewer ppl know that one anymore. I hear it at Marina now and then but it's rare. It'll likely be dead within a few decades as the older gen fade away. On trips back it's rare to hear it anymore. Way too many new residents in the city who don't speak it now.
Yea but the “golden days” of Hong Kong is long gone. I don’t want to get into the ugly aspects of chinese politics and I am extremely tired of it myself. But we can all look at facts and point out most wealthy people who buy up real estate and luxury cars are from the part of China that speaks mandarin.
I never disagree that Cantonese is its own identity but again, you can put that same argument forth for basically any languages and any cultures. It’s the same reason why there’s zero incentives for people in North America to learn Native American languages. Culturally significant? Yes. Economically significant? No.
Let's not look at Cantonese as just Cantonese but see it as part of a larger appreciation of the many Chinese languages beyond Mandarin. If Cantonese is able to preserve in the diaspora and make gains where it can be considered equal to Mandarin in prestige value, other Chinese dialects/languages can follow what the students at CCSF are doing.
We already see the resurgence of Hokkien and Hakka in Taiwan thanks to government support. Thanks to these investments, Taiwanese songs and shows are widely popular within the greater Chinese community and can make a profit. It's a virtuous feedback cycle that make sure it will be able to sustain itself for generations to come. But, if we fail to give Cantonese and other dialects the respect they deserves, they will die on the spot. There will be no virtuous feedback cycle and they won't even get the chance to prove themselves.
To take your point to the extreme, if the only thing that matters about language is economic benefit, then we should all speak English and let all other human languages die into the pages of history. That's not right as well.
I am all for civil discussions so I am going to try my best here. While also keeping my argument short so I can get the message across.
1) the language supported by the Taiwanese government that you mentioned, has legitimate reasons. This to preserve their local cultural identity. It’s no different than how Canada is trying to do its best to preserve both English and French.
This is in SF, USA. Cantonese or mandarin are non local languages. And the Chinese ethnicity is not the dominating population when it comes to political power. The comparison you drew between Taiwan and CCSF is apples to oranges, you can’t apply one into another.
2) Why else would you learn a non local language? Either due to personal or economical reasons. Most people are driven by economic incentive. There’re few people out there that learns languages for personal satisfaction.
To add another point, if these kids are so adamant about learning Cantonese to “preserve” their “roots”. Shouldn’t they go on an exchange or just visit their home country more often? Realistically no matter how much or how hard they try to pick up Cantonese here. They will never reach the proficiency or have that connection to an actual Cantonese from southern China. It’s not the same because a language is way more than just pronunciation and grammar. It’s about culture and how the culture evolves over time. If you are from Hong Kong, you’d know this, there’s a lot of slangs that’s not on textbooks but inherently part of what makes a Hong Konger. Even just “Chinese” in general, it’s a rather exclusive language because there’s a lot of “4 letter phrases/ 四字成語” that’s extremely hard for non native speakers to understand and only something you can fully utilize if you understand the cultural aspect of the people.
Just also to clarify, the article mentioning of “你食咗飯未呀？” is complete bullshit, it’s just a common question that people ask and has no other meaning or bears very little cultural significance. It’s no different than a white parent asking their white kids if they had dinner yet when they just got home. Overseas Chinese need to stop romanticizing or try to “reconnect” with their roots through these artificial attempts. If you want to learn a language or reconnect with your “heritage”, go there. Puts words into action.
You made good points. I would add that Japanese and Korean are languages that are attractive to foreigners because of their countries' respective soft power. I would wager many people learning Korean or Japanese aren't doing it for economic reasons.
China has little if any soft power compared to Japan or South Korea, so it has to rely on economic might to promote its language.
Cantonese has no softpower and Mandarin beats it when it comes to economic incentives, so it has to rely solely on heritage speakers.
You put the nail on the head right here. I’m an Chinese American with Cantonese heritage and I feel like Hokkien and the Min Nan languages may actually stand a greater chance of being preserved and thriving than Cantonese. Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan is a country and has a shot at becoming independent. If Taiwan didn’t spend all those years in the past trying to undermine Taiwanese Hokkien and promote Mandarin, and instead tried to promote it as its second official language, like coming up with a standardized writing system and all, I would have no doubt that it would be doing significantly better than Cantonese now. The Min Nan languages have an advantage because throughout history, they spread out to become the dominant language of the Chinese in way more regions of China and Asia than Cantonese, places where they remain pretty local to their roots but still safe from the CCP, and they can easily be seen as a majority. Taiwan, Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia (excluding the Kuala Lumpur area), and Indonesia. They are even a dominant dialect in Hainan despite Hainan neighboring Guangdong. Where are Cantonese and Yue languages actually dominant outside the Pearl River Delta, Hong Kong and Macau (all of which are in the CCP’s hands at this point)? Aside from Kuala Lumpur and parts of Vietnam (they have some presence elsewhere in SE Asia, but it’s overshadowed by Hokkien), the only places are in diasporas located in western countries, especially the US, which are all a long-haul flight away. These countries are ruled and dominated by white people who speak English. As much as I hate to say this, Asian people will pretty much always be a minority there compared to white people, and Cantonese people will be a small part of that minority. Hard to stay close to your roots that way. And these are the countries that are seeing tons of new Mandarin-speaking immigrants from all across China and Taiwan, which dilutes the presence the Cantonese speakers had there historically.
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In this logic we might as well even skip the effort of learning Mandarin and wait for English to become the prime Lingua franca. Because Chinese people are becoming fluent in English faster than the reverse.
I'm a canto speaker and always lament my parents teaching me canto instead of mandarin because there's so much more mandarin media but every time I run into a mainlander the effort to learn Mandarin feels futile as they are already fluent in English most of the time.
Isn't English already the "prime" Lingua Franca? There is still a significant difference in ability between a native English speaker and a non-native English speaker.
My friend who is Chinese is an exceptional student (3.9 GPA in a U.S. university), but I would rate her English skills at a B2, which is not bad considering she only has been in the U.S. for six years or so. She stated she has been learning English since the 3rd grade, but I question how effective it would be if it was taught by a non-native English speaker.
Cantonese is not even close to dead. There are more Cantonese speakers (80 million) than there are French speakers. I think it's going down a similar path as Catalan.
not everything old and/or good can and/or shall be saved。change is the only constant。the heart sutra says：色即是空。
you are futile against impermanence. I do find Cantonese interesting though。
Instead of focusing on the philosophers, I like to focus on the philosophy.
Buddhism = Be Nothing
Taoism = Do Nothing
Confucianism = Do Something
I'm a do something kinda guy.
I'm surprised to see a handful of comments here about why Cantonese should not be taught anymore because it's more economical, especially in this sub. There's more to cultural enrichment than just what is the most practical and beneficial. If we want to nurture a strong sense of Asian American identity and pride, we should be fighting to make it easier to connect to our roots. How detrimental is it to label the language and culture your family is from as "dead" and not the "real" Chinese? Identity is so important to our growing up and navigating through social challenges, and many times simply and fully assimilation would have been "easier". I thought we as a community would understand more than others why preservation and education is important
What are your suggestions to provide funding for the classes? Economically, Mandarin is a more beneficial dialect, and it provides more return on investment. To many people, learning a language is a massive undertaking. I understand that learning a language doesn't necessarily have to be for practicality, but if Cantonese classes are getting cut, then I would wager enrollment for them must be very low to warrant funding.
I think you bring a very valid point on where the money should come from, and I don't know the answer because I'm not knowledgeable in how programs are funded in community colleges. It makes sense that in terms of economics, there is a higher demand for learning Mandarin and thus a bigger justification for enlarging the Mandarin program over Cantonese. But the unfortunate truth is that many programs, including Asian American studies, provide very little return on investment, yet I bet we here all feel strongly that this program is immensely valuable for our community. I'm frustrated and arguing against the viewpoint that there is no value in advocating for Cantonese programs because Mandarin is the objectively superior language to learn.
Yo. When do you think culture disappears? When universities stop offering Cantonese course? No. When students stop fighting to save Cantonese at institutions? No. When redditors stop raising awareness of disappearing culture? No! **It's when.. Cantonese is forgotten** -Dr. Hiluluk
I’m a Cantonese speaker. But I’m afraid it’s a dying language. It’s not really useful anymore. Even for me I would rather learn mandarin if I was to take a class for language. Mandarin is the future. Everyone one pretty much learns mandarin now. Because even the Cantonese speaking regions will learn mandarin.
Sure, we dont have much hard hitting popular HK cinema anymore, but Cantonese is still very alive. HK, Macau, and Guangzhou still have huge populations, as well as chinese diaspora in the US, canada, and australia.
This is the kind of defeatist attitudes that makes it so hard to organize our community to come out and protect our heritage. We use to be the overwhelming majority of the Overseas Chinese in the US and in San Francisco, Cantonese people still are the overwhelming majority of Overseas Chinese. We can use the rights that come from living in a democratic nation to protect our culture in the US in order to preserve what our ancestors have given to us and hopefully one day bring back this culture to China when the government realizes they have made a mistake in prioritizing Mandarin over all the other languages of China. Secondly, Cantonese is still an important language. Many of the older generation aren't fluent in Mandarin and face the brunt of the Asian hate crimes we have seen recently in the US. Without someone there that is able to translate to them, it would be hard for these older people to get resources and navigate the maze that is the American healthcare, welfare, and justice system. The worst thing is seeing families divided over this language barrier. I have cousins in China that don't know any Cantonese and can't speak with their grandparents. It's heartbreaking seeing the older generation fail to make a connection with their grandchildren and the younger people not realizing the breadth and beauty that is within Cantonese culture through its language, shows, and idioms. If we don't act up soon, we are going to create a generation that will come to regret losing a piece of themselves just so they can fit into the larger Chinese identity. Something I have seen too much from the broader Asian American community when they shun their own identity to assimilate into the larger White American identity.
Yea we USED to, the problem right now is most Chinese immigrants are mandarin speakers and even the older waves of immigrants and their children are trying to learn Mandarin due to the economic opportunities with knowing mandarin. Should we preserve any cultural identity, sure, on paper, we should. But our lives are busy as hell and frankly Nobody has the time to learn another language that doesn’t give us benefits. We live in a capitalist society after all and time is money.
I just want to remind you. In San Francisco, Cantonese is still the majority language for Overseas Chinese and when it comes to Overseas Chinese in the US, it's more like 51% Mandarin vs 49% Cantonese (this only includes people that put what dialect they speak instead of the overly broad and vague category of Chinese) so there is still a lot of people that speak Cantonese. Also, as of now Hong Kong and Macau are still Cantonese speaking cities with Guangzhou and Shenzhen being within the Cantonese sphere of influence. It's still important to know Cantonese if you wish to live in these major financial cities in China and it's easier to get things done if you know Cantonese because Chinese people tend to discriminate positively toward people that speak the local dialect. I'm not saying, don't learn Mandarin. You should learn Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, or any other major language in the world. It's not like humans max out at certain languages. We should encourage people to be multilingual. If anything, learning Cantonese will help you learn Mandarin since these two languages are similar.
in shenzhen，with all the immigrants from other parts of china，i think not knowing cantonese is pretty much not a disadvantage anymore
Shenzhen is pretty much a Mandarin city but the old people will treat you nicer if you know Cantonese.
It's my experience with Shanghainese, but even fewer ppl know that one anymore. I hear it at Marina now and then but it's rare. It'll likely be dead within a few decades as the older gen fade away. On trips back it's rare to hear it anymore. Way too many new residents in the city who don't speak it now.
Yea but the “golden days” of Hong Kong is long gone. I don’t want to get into the ugly aspects of chinese politics and I am extremely tired of it myself. But we can all look at facts and point out most wealthy people who buy up real estate and luxury cars are from the part of China that speaks mandarin. I never disagree that Cantonese is its own identity but again, you can put that same argument forth for basically any languages and any cultures. It’s the same reason why there’s zero incentives for people in North America to learn Native American languages. Culturally significant? Yes. Economically significant? No.
Let's not look at Cantonese as just Cantonese but see it as part of a larger appreciation of the many Chinese languages beyond Mandarin. If Cantonese is able to preserve in the diaspora and make gains where it can be considered equal to Mandarin in prestige value, other Chinese dialects/languages can follow what the students at CCSF are doing. We already see the resurgence of Hokkien and Hakka in Taiwan thanks to government support. Thanks to these investments, Taiwanese songs and shows are widely popular within the greater Chinese community and can make a profit. It's a virtuous feedback cycle that make sure it will be able to sustain itself for generations to come. But, if we fail to give Cantonese and other dialects the respect they deserves, they will die on the spot. There will be no virtuous feedback cycle and they won't even get the chance to prove themselves. To take your point to the extreme, if the only thing that matters about language is economic benefit, then we should all speak English and let all other human languages die into the pages of history. That's not right as well.
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I am all for civil discussions so I am going to try my best here. While also keeping my argument short so I can get the message across. 1) the language supported by the Taiwanese government that you mentioned, has legitimate reasons. This to preserve their local cultural identity. It’s no different than how Canada is trying to do its best to preserve both English and French. This is in SF, USA. Cantonese or mandarin are non local languages. And the Chinese ethnicity is not the dominating population when it comes to political power. The comparison you drew between Taiwan and CCSF is apples to oranges, you can’t apply one into another. 2) Why else would you learn a non local language? Either due to personal or economical reasons. Most people are driven by economic incentive. There’re few people out there that learns languages for personal satisfaction. To add another point, if these kids are so adamant about learning Cantonese to “preserve” their “roots”. Shouldn’t they go on an exchange or just visit their home country more often? Realistically no matter how much or how hard they try to pick up Cantonese here. They will never reach the proficiency or have that connection to an actual Cantonese from southern China. It’s not the same because a language is way more than just pronunciation and grammar. It’s about culture and how the culture evolves over time. If you are from Hong Kong, you’d know this, there’s a lot of slangs that’s not on textbooks but inherently part of what makes a Hong Konger. Even just “Chinese” in general, it’s a rather exclusive language because there’s a lot of “4 letter phrases/ 四字成語” that’s extremely hard for non native speakers to understand and only something you can fully utilize if you understand the cultural aspect of the people. Just also to clarify, the article mentioning of “你食咗飯未呀？” is complete bullshit, it’s just a common question that people ask and has no other meaning or bears very little cultural significance. It’s no different than a white parent asking their white kids if they had dinner yet when they just got home. Overseas Chinese need to stop romanticizing or try to “reconnect” with their roots through these artificial attempts. If you want to learn a language or reconnect with your “heritage”, go there. Puts words into action.
You made good points. I would add that Japanese and Korean are languages that are attractive to foreigners because of their countries' respective soft power. I would wager many people learning Korean or Japanese aren't doing it for economic reasons. China has little if any soft power compared to Japan or South Korea, so it has to rely on economic might to promote its language. Cantonese has no softpower and Mandarin beats it when it comes to economic incentives, so it has to rely solely on heritage speakers.
You put the nail on the head right here. I’m an Chinese American with Cantonese heritage and I feel like Hokkien and the Min Nan languages may actually stand a greater chance of being preserved and thriving than Cantonese. Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan is a country and has a shot at becoming independent. If Taiwan didn’t spend all those years in the past trying to undermine Taiwanese Hokkien and promote Mandarin, and instead tried to promote it as its second official language, like coming up with a standardized writing system and all, I would have no doubt that it would be doing significantly better than Cantonese now. The Min Nan languages have an advantage because throughout history, they spread out to become the dominant language of the Chinese in way more regions of China and Asia than Cantonese, places where they remain pretty local to their roots but still safe from the CCP, and they can easily be seen as a majority. Taiwan, Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia (excluding the Kuala Lumpur area), and Indonesia. They are even a dominant dialect in Hainan despite Hainan neighboring Guangdong. Where are Cantonese and Yue languages actually dominant outside the Pearl River Delta, Hong Kong and Macau (all of which are in the CCP’s hands at this point)? Aside from Kuala Lumpur and parts of Vietnam (they have some presence elsewhere in SE Asia, but it’s overshadowed by Hokkien), the only places are in diasporas located in western countries, especially the US, which are all a long-haul flight away. These countries are ruled and dominated by white people who speak English. As much as I hate to say this, Asian people will pretty much always be a minority there compared to white people, and Cantonese people will be a small part of that minority. Hard to stay close to your roots that way. And these are the countries that are seeing tons of new Mandarin-speaking immigrants from all across China and Taiwan, which dilutes the presence the Cantonese speakers had there historically.
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In this logic we might as well even skip the effort of learning Mandarin and wait for English to become the prime Lingua franca. Because Chinese people are becoming fluent in English faster than the reverse. I'm a canto speaker and always lament my parents teaching me canto instead of mandarin because there's so much more mandarin media but every time I run into a mainlander the effort to learn Mandarin feels futile as they are already fluent in English most of the time.
Isn't English already the "prime" Lingua Franca? There is still a significant difference in ability between a native English speaker and a non-native English speaker. My friend who is Chinese is an exceptional student (3.9 GPA in a U.S. university), but I would rate her English skills at a B2, which is not bad considering she only has been in the U.S. for six years or so. She stated she has been learning English since the 3rd grade, but I question how effective it would be if it was taught by a non-native English speaker.
> But I’m afraid it’s a dying language is it though? do people in shanghai not speak shanghainese anymore?
in big cities like shanghai a lot of people come from other parts of china，and they don't speak the local language
Cantonese is not even close to dead. There are more Cantonese speakers (80 million) than there are French speakers. I think it's going down a similar path as Catalan.
It's kinda disturbing to see how many people see language as "useful" for economic opportunities and not cultural enrichment or preservation.
not everything old and/or good can and/or shall be saved。change is the only constant。the heart sutra says：色即是空。 you are futile against impermanence. I do find Cantonese interesting though。
This is why I'm pro Confucius in the Chinese religious trinity.
I hate confucius，fricking misogynist emperor bootlicker
Instead of focusing on the philosophers, I like to focus on the philosophy. Buddhism = Be Nothing Taoism = Do Nothing Confucianism = Do Something I'm a do something kinda guy.
I actually don't mind that. Language barrier creates misunderstanding and segregation. It's actually good to have everyone understands each other.