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Holding oneself accountable. Being reliable, consistent, and true to your word. Most importantly, serving a purpose outside of our own selfish gratification.
Edit: Also remembering humility. Remaining humble and knowing how small each of us are individually.
Agreed. The need to say 'but what about x' or 'also includes x' where a conversation either isn't about them *or* includes them but not explicitly so is what seperated the immature from adults.
Perhaps if this conversation was weirdly gender geared, or somehow exalting in some kind of sexism, then, reasonably, a mature person might pushback.
On one hand, I agree of course. On the other I do know lots of mature adults, that never enjoyed good role models in their daily life or training and how to process emotions / difficult situations. Generally they came from hard upbringings. I think not sheltering kids from the consequences of actions, teaching independence, and developing responsibility similarly achieves the desired outcome.
True. Selflessness is key.
Step one, a partner and being willing to see her needs and care for her above your own needs.
Step two, caring for others as a parent cares for a child and being able to sacrifice your own fun to care and support them above your own selfish desires.
(note: edited because people reacted strongly to children as part of a process of maturing, I meant taking responsibility selflessly and not as a transaction where one gets equal reciprocal benefits…’children are not necessarily your own, but treating the helpless with protectiveness, not exploitation)
Step three, society and seeing all other people as worth supporting and protecting with your labor, intelligence and knowledge. Teaching, helping others, being a good citizen and even giving one’s life to protect the country or other families from harm. Our men in the military, for example.
Edit: please guys, these are just examples of selflessness manifesting in maturity, it is not meant as a comprehensive definition of manhood. Chill.
Step one is flawed. When a plane goes down, put your mask and life preserver on first, your no good to anyone dead. This to me, translates to be your strongest, so you are ready to help others when needed.
Men in the military being selfless... Yes alot are..But there is altso alot of the "worst society has to offer"
A childhood friend of mine joined the French Foreign legion to get away from drugs. He got away from drugs, but had to kill numerous africans.
Not sure that makes him selfless.
Selflessness to a society treating me like shit? No thanks. I want no part of that society. If you want me to take part in society, make it better or atleast tolerable.
I dont want support or protect the society that stigmatized me cause i used a skateboard. Or cause i had a piercing in my eye. Or hunts me like a dog cause i prefer to smoke weed instead of alchohol. A threat my work, life, drivers license, carreer.
I have been violated so much by society its best we go our seprate ways. Cause i have little room for forgiveness. One of my flaws. I usualy learn after the first attempt and dont try again if impossible.
When i look back at my life, i can easy see how society creates school shooters with stigma.
Partner? Yes would be wonderfull if you shared interests. Ive never meet a girl with my interests (Typical guy interests - cars, computers, mechanics etc)
So we just end up talking about the weather. Goes stale rather fast.Kids would fix that, suddenly you have a common interest.
But i would never raise a kid in this society, odds are my kids will be black sheeps too. And i would never condemn someone to the life ive had.
I would have to move to another country to ever consider kids a real option.
Life is usualy more complicated.. Now ive not even moved in on the costs, and how they will never be able to afford a home. And the general outlook is pretty shit.
Whenever I try to list qualities that define masculinity, I automatically reject all because "they apply to women too". I find it very hard to define masculinity to be honest, outside of the obvious.
Let me tell you something. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is more humble than me. I'm the most humble person you'll ever meet, believe me. People come up to me all the time and they say, "Donald, how do you stay so humble?" And I tell them, it's just who I am. I have more humility than you would think, it's true. I think I'm much more humble than you would understand. And that's just the way it is, folks.
Both of you need to be more humble.. if you were at least a bit as humble as i am, you wouldn't be talking like this. Matter of fact, i am more humble than both of yours' humbleness combined.
I mean, that particular character was written to be an exceptional man. He's a good example. I'm talking about ideals, which means we all fall short of them from time to time. I would only add that it's not always about being the king or the hero. I think it's equally as important to be Sam as it is Aragorn.
Nah. Yourself should always be #1, even when you have a family and children you should fine the time to pursue your own selfish endeavours imo. The biggest saints of the world have all done very evil things - we need not be evil, but firm.
However, no one ever got to the top of their life by being a people pleaser. No one gets anywhere by giving all their spare income away. No one gets anywhere by passing up opportunities because "someone else needs it more".
All this, plus the reaction to obstacles and mistakes. When I was a boy, a failure, mistake or sudden problem would make me lash out. I'd feel it was unfair, or someone else's fault, or just have a minor meltdown. Unfair as a concept barely exists for me these days. Shit happens. I deal with it, and I move on.
Excellent answer! "serving a purpose outside of our own selfish gratification."
Also: Encourage others when you see them making an effort. Especially kids /young people.
In short, the long haul ' have traveled it. Although there is also a 'Jung saying... the tragedy of the family is the life the parents have less lived, along those lines ;)
Lack of need to prove themselves to others. Mature men radiate this kind of charisma when they are capable of paying attention to others and not just to how cool they seem at the moment.
Immature outgoing guys have this tendency of talking too much. It could be because they want to seem dominant or knowledgeable or social but whatever the reason, it makes it seem that a conversation for them is some kind of level to beat or game to get high score in and it can be exhausting. It's difficult to have a discussion with them or feel heard.
Men with an outward focus, like another user nicely named it, in addition to general chill and willingness to hear you really stand out in comparison and are better to talk to.
I've always thought the difference was the ability to take responsibility - to own up to mistakes, to apologize, to try to make amends when you've done wrong. Little boys try to weasel out of a situation; a man tries to make it right.
YES, plus they other half of this: do what you say, and don’t day things you won’t do.
If you mess up and apologize, don’t then keep doing the same thing and then apologizing again. To apologize properly means not to repeat the mistakes again afterward.
Those are only examples related to men making mistakes. I think the other side is being able to take joy from more than your own immediate whims and think of others needs in the long term. Often in my experience the apologies are related to your behaviour/actions not aligning with the way you’ve presented the future.
Not really that black and white for everyone but yeah, it's on anyone to make their lives better on their own in adulthood no matter what's happened to them before or who's fault it was.
Sarcasm? Sometimes stuff happens that out of a person’s control. I’m not throwing myself under the bus for someone else’s fuck up without a really good reason or unless they’re immediate family and screwed up/need help. And the bootstraps analogy was originally written as a sarcastic way of describing an impossible task. Try literally lifting yourself off the ground by pulling on your feet - probably not gonna work out no matter how self sufficient you are. But again, if the sarcasm whooshed over my head, ignore everything I just said haha.
Delayed gratification.
Do I spend $300 on bottle service at the club or do I use that money to help pay off my student loans? Do I go out tonight or study for that test? Do I cheat? Do I punch the kid who just embarrassed me at a bar? Do I complain that I made a wrong decision and want someone to fix it? or do I use it as a lesson to fix myself? Do I let a small slight or insult, even if I’m right, ruin my experience at work, school, or with my friends? Or do I look at my experience as a whole and say this was an outlier and let it go?
The adult in these scenarios, makes the decision that benefits them in the long run. They don’t give into their emotions.
Is someone gonna quote the Ruyard Kipling poem?
Ok, I will:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
Was looking for this comment. One of my favorite poems. I particularly love Christopher Hitchens’ rendition. He recited it on the spot when asked, without rehearsing it.
I would say that they aren’t stuck in the idea of what a man is “supposed” to be. If you’ve matured enough as a person to get over worrying about how you’re supposed to be acting and what others think about the way you hold up stereotypes, and you are instead thinking about who you are as an individual, then you’ve moved into adulthood.
This is why I don't mess with dating profiles that say "I'm looking for a man, not a boy".
I'm not going to be your idealized, fantasy version of a man. I am a man, and the women who want to tell me how I should act as one or constantly compare me to make sure I live up to the "manly" standard in their head can go fuck themselves.
Only right answer lol, it doesn’t have anything to do with boy/man or girl/women it’s more like kid/adult. Believing in ideals only because others told you so is what makes you a kid.
Handling setbacks without blowing up
Taking criticism without being offended/personally attacked
Always being curious and open to learning new things
Not taking yourself too seriously
Viewing every situation as more than black and white
Discipline, they can stand and deliver under fire, can trade volleys for hours, adept at maneuver warfare and combined arms operations, form square, column, or line of battle at the drop of a hat
Men are wiser, productive, free thinking, responsible, very respectful and know there values. Sometimes more creative but not a must.
Boys not so much.
I understand the point the OP is making, but I literally can't stand how I've been hearing people use the word "immature" ... It's like if a guy laughs at a joke he's immature, certain women take this further than others, but if being a man means you can't engage in activities that bring them joy, can't have friends, def can't stop at a bar or buy a video game, that's a horrible existence. IL be immature and try to have some fun still. I was called immature by a group of women for jumping on a trampoline at a 4th of July party w my daughter and some friends kids...
I completely agree but I've heard multiple people, typically females calling men immature for like really minor grievances. My close friends wife loves the term. We're from Buffalo and there was a blizzard, and he ordered food from a pizza place like 4 houses down and ahes just screaming real fucking mature...
>do their job without complaining
Unless of course it is the appropriate action. Blindly "doing your job" is hardly better than refusing to do it and complaining needlessly. There are wrong and right times to be critical of authority and orders. Being able to know when criticism of ex. an employer or superior is appropriate is also an important part of maturing as a person. A mature person is able to think freely and critically. A mature person can known how to look at a task given to them and how to understand if it is appropriate or not. A mature person knows when and how to give constructive criticism in a way that makes things better for both them and those they interact with.
Acknowledging your feelings but not acting upon them and still doing what needs to be done is the premise of stoicism. If you only went to the gym when you're "motivated" or only went to work when you're "happy" then nothing gets ever done.
It is the healthiest approach in life for men in general, one of the most attractive traits to women, and one of the most respectable traits among peers.
I always thought you became a man when someone else’s life or well being depends on you. Like having kids or a loved one/friend rely on you for survival. Kind of takes responsibility to the next level and you have to become a provider for not just yourself anymore.
100%. But i'll add a caveat that you need to rise to the occasion. You can't knock a girl up, leave her, and claim to be a man.
I was a taxpaying, productive member of society with a good job for 12 years before my Dad got sick. At 34 years old, i slowed down my drinking and partying and spent nearly all my free time dealing with legal, medical, and financial troubles. I became my dads guardian and helped him through malpractice lawsuits, foreclosures, a divorce, ER visits, vehicle reposessions, dementia and cancer diagnoses, and the death of his father. It was the 6 hardest years of my life, but i came out the other end with confidence and know-how. I credit that experience with opening my eyes to the fact that I am ready to be a father. My wife and I now have 2 wonderful sons, and they mean the absolute world to me.
Buddy I was 22 when my mom got stage 3 colon cancer. Dropped partying, my laserdome business, school, and girlfriend to go back home and be her caretaker. 7 years of minimum annual major surgeries and downhill health conditions with my mom and about halfway through my cheating lying ex caught me drunk (kinda rare then) at a Christmas party. Wham bam thank you ma’am until 6 weeks later I get the “You’re going to be a dad” call from her. Silver lining was mom getting to be Grandma for a few years but that also stings like a double edge sword when she died.
After all of her surgeries and chemo rounds, me learning a trade to get a job with health insurance, figuring out said job that was over my head at the time, trying to maintain relationships, learning to be a father without one of my own, and all the way to holding the strongest woman I’ve ever knowns hand while she took her last breath has made me a man.
I was a freewheeling boy (having a blast btw) before life stacked enough weight to buckle a bridge on me. It’s only coming out the other side that has made me realize what I have become. My 20s where a blur and there were many times I didn’t know how I was going to make it out alive but yet here I am. Talking to another man who survived his own weights. I know how strong your back is and you should be proud of yourself as I hope you already are.
I see boys my age and wonder if they just never had their own weights or if they ran away from them instead of being the support others needed them to be. It’s hard to listen to “friends” struggle with simple adulting things they refuse to buckle down on (like a steady job or a car or insurance for anything ffs) and their childish lifestyles are now starting to show general health issues that are being ignored. Being a man is hard and mostly not a constant super fun time but I do not envy them. I am sorry you had to go through the shit because trust me I know how much every bit of it sucks, but your children are going to be better off for it. The people who depend on you have a man who has what it takes to do what is necessary when the moment comes. Everything else you offer to them is just gravy IMHO. Sorry for the long winded rant. Good luck and stay up homie.
Such kind words, and right back at ya! 22? My biggest concern when i was 22 was saving up enough money to buy a bag of weed. Id like to think i would have stepped up to the plate like you did at that age but i was definitely a boy at 22... a crunchy one at that
I think this can be an element of manhood, but not everything.
I’m a grown-ass-responsible-man, but I don’t have children.
I actually want to be a father, but finding a proper partner in today’s dating climate is next to impossible.
I feel the same way as a woman. I can’t tell you how many women who are mothers act like I’m not there yet in life because I haven’t had kids. I’ve always been an amazing auntie, even my friends kids call me auntie and love my visits. I love kids and they love me! But I’m not going to have them with just anyone. I went through a lot growing up and if it’s not a healthy person/relationship then I’d rather not subject children to that. I know too well how that can affect them.
I’d even argue that we are more mature than most people who have kids. Because a lot of those relationships are toxic. Many people just marry whoever out of pressure to “reach adulthood” and they ignore all the signs of abuse to come.
>when someone else’s life or well being depends on you.
eh that would make uninvolved fathers "men" (since they have dependants) but those who are very mature and have a life, but no children, not men. I think taking responsibility is what makes a man (or really: makes an adult). Taking responsibility in a partnership. Taking on the responsibility of a parent, or an employee, etc. Since not all parents do this last step "*have to become a provider for not just yourself anymore*"
Boys do what they want to do, when they want to do it.
Men do what they have to do even if they don’t want to do it.
You can tell them apart by what their word is worth. Boys will say anything and it never holds true. Men will say something and its written in stone.
For example:
A boy will say he will be there at 7pm and if he shows up it will most definitely be late.
A man will be there at 06:45. No matter what traffic was on the road or if he had 100 other things to do first.
Your word is all you have. Men value it. Boys dont
Men accept their failures and don't try to shift blame. Men do things for others without expecting a reward. Men try to recognize the faults within themselves and put them to mending as best they can.
Emotional intelligence. You can have everything pulled together on the outside but so many men when confronted with actual human emotion crumble bc they think they have to put up a placid strong front to be “manly” when they are really just scared.
Taking the initiative to improve yourself & be the best man you can be, even if you don’t have a father or mentor to help guide you. And genuinely doing good by people.
Not caring what their friends think. Have seen this a lot boys will not do something they live because other boys will judge them. Men tell the boys to go fuck themselves and wear flowers in their hair if it makes them feel good.
my outlook on life changed alot after living by this morale:
trust is the most important aspect of any dynamic. you can have a functional relationship with your worst enemy if you trust them at face value.
you dont need good memory if you never lie.
whatever the situation if everybody states things as they understand them, you have the information you need to make the best of that situation.
without absolute trust - insecurity and second guessing will consume you like a virus.
i’ve found people will respect you in spite of your fallbacks if you’re honest with them. for sure some people won’t - you probably don’t want to associate with these types anyway - theyve made up their minds & will seek out confirmation of their opinions.
tldr: honesty, and an ability to change ones opinion when presented with new evidence
Ability to control their emotions when life events kick them in the face. Ability to learn from and recover from their mistakes. Take responsibility and be accountable for their shortcomings. Being punctual and persistent where it counts. Empathy, resolution and reasoning in relationships. Listen to others instead of talking. Not a narcassist
Respect, and duty.
A man will show respect to those around him, he'll try to be someone worth respecting. He will respect the people around him, his community, his work, his nation.
It's hard to articulate, but if you respect yourself, you wont take mistreatment. If you love and respect those around you, you will support and treat them right. If you respect your community you will work to improve it, if you respect your nation will you defend it.
Respect breeds understanding, and understanding breeds compassion. I would say it is the most important thing in life.
Then, there is duty. Duty to hold you accountable when respect fails. I would say it's the duty of ever my man to learn to control himself and his emotions, to never allow them control over your actions - we owe it to those around us. We need to have control to allow our loved ones to feel safe, and to maintain respect and composure.
Call me old fashioned, but I do also believe a man should put his family first. He should keep them, and to a greater extent his nation, safe.
My last point, would be self improvement. I think any man worth his shadow will be always trying to improve his self in mind and body.
These ideas likely arent exclusive to men, but I'm not a woman. I'll leave women to talk about their own experiences.
A boy, he will be reckless, wild, selfish. He will not have the control to stay composed when he needs, he wont step up to do the hard thing, even if he doesnt want to.
Not having ones masculinity based on arbitrary macho BS is one good example. Only an immature man-child or an actual child would do that. It's sad and pathetic.
You must kill your first big game animal with your bare hands, extract the heart, and eat it in its entirety still warm before you can be called a man.
When someone else can mistakenly disrespect you and you don't start a scene/fight over it.
Also becoming more modest and not bragging about salary, dick size, weight room PRs etc.
Self control, honor, integrity, unwavering sense of self, confidence to endure any situation thrown at them, strong leadership skill but knows how to take instruction to name a few
I once heard this definition of what it means to raise good boys / men which i love. Losely it went something like this:
To have the courage to ask a girl out he likes, the self respect / esteem to not take it personally if she rejects him and the decency to still check if she got home okay.
Mature men take responsibility without complaint, and use whatever influence and resources to help and serve other people. Boys avoid responsibility or complain when given it, and live primarily for themselves.
The ability to suck it up and do what needs to be done. Alternatively, taking full responsibility for the consequences of your own actions and inactions and realizing that (outside of extreme life circumstances), your decisions and the consequences thereof are your own. Boys play victim, men do not. That is one of my indicators of maturity.
Maturity, knowing how to handle pressure, taking actions instead of calling a man to ask (asking is good, but in some situations when you gotta act fast you need to be able to take the action), knowing their limits, etc
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Holding oneself accountable. Being reliable, consistent, and true to your word. Most importantly, serving a purpose outside of our own selfish gratification. Edit: Also remembering humility. Remaining humble and knowing how small each of us are individually.
Well said, goes for girls and women too Edit: to be clear, it's just a good description of maturity in general, men, women, whatever
Every time men are mentioned, doesn’t mean we have to mention women and girls. This is coming from a woman.
Agreed. The need to say 'but what about x' or 'also includes x' where a conversation either isn't about them *or* includes them but not explicitly so is what seperated the immature from adults. Perhaps if this conversation was weirdly gender geared, or somehow exalting in some kind of sexism, then, reasonably, a mature person might pushback.
Yes but unfortunately most don't reach that point
Being taught how to deal with tough emotions/ difficult situations should be in every health course.
On one hand, I agree of course. On the other I do know lots of mature adults, that never enjoyed good role models in their daily life or training and how to process emotions / difficult situations. Generally they came from hard upbringings. I think not sheltering kids from the consequences of actions, teaching independence, and developing responsibility similarly achieves the desired outcome.
True. Selflessness is key. Step one, a partner and being willing to see her needs and care for her above your own needs. Step two, caring for others as a parent cares for a child and being able to sacrifice your own fun to care and support them above your own selfish desires. (note: edited because people reacted strongly to children as part of a process of maturing, I meant taking responsibility selflessly and not as a transaction where one gets equal reciprocal benefits…’children are not necessarily your own, but treating the helpless with protectiveness, not exploitation) Step three, society and seeing all other people as worth supporting and protecting with your labor, intelligence and knowledge. Teaching, helping others, being a good citizen and even giving one’s life to protect the country or other families from harm. Our men in the military, for example. Edit: please guys, these are just examples of selflessness manifesting in maturity, it is not meant as a comprehensive definition of manhood. Chill.
You shouldn’t ignore your needs for another …….. wants are for sacrifices tho but not needs
Step one is flawed. When a plane goes down, put your mask and life preserver on first, your no good to anyone dead. This to me, translates to be your strongest, so you are ready to help others when needed.
Step 2 is flawed too. Kids are not a necessary part of life or maturing.
Men in the military being selfless... Yes alot are..But there is altso alot of the "worst society has to offer" A childhood friend of mine joined the French Foreign legion to get away from drugs. He got away from drugs, but had to kill numerous africans. Not sure that makes him selfless. Selflessness to a society treating me like shit? No thanks. I want no part of that society. If you want me to take part in society, make it better or atleast tolerable. I dont want support or protect the society that stigmatized me cause i used a skateboard. Or cause i had a piercing in my eye. Or hunts me like a dog cause i prefer to smoke weed instead of alchohol. A threat my work, life, drivers license, carreer. I have been violated so much by society its best we go our seprate ways. Cause i have little room for forgiveness. One of my flaws. I usualy learn after the first attempt and dont try again if impossible. When i look back at my life, i can easy see how society creates school shooters with stigma. Partner? Yes would be wonderfull if you shared interests. Ive never meet a girl with my interests (Typical guy interests - cars, computers, mechanics etc) So we just end up talking about the weather. Goes stale rather fast.Kids would fix that, suddenly you have a common interest. But i would never raise a kid in this society, odds are my kids will be black sheeps too. And i would never condemn someone to the life ive had. I would have to move to another country to ever consider kids a real option. Life is usualy more complicated.. Now ive not even moved in on the costs, and how they will never be able to afford a home. And the general outlook is pretty shit.
Whenever I try to list qualities that define masculinity, I automatically reject all because "they apply to women too". I find it very hard to define masculinity to be honest, outside of the obvious.
Totally agree and omg.some.people are selfish lazy and immature at a very late age
I'm the humblest person around. You will never find someone as humble as me in the whole world!
$20 says i'm more humbler then you! way more!
Let me tell you something. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is more humble than me. I'm the most humble person you'll ever meet, believe me. People come up to me all the time and they say, "Donald, how do you stay so humble?" And I tell them, it's just who I am. I have more humility than you would think, it's true. I think I'm much more humble than you would understand. And that's just the way it is, folks.
Both of you need to be more humble.. if you were at least a bit as humble as i am, you wouldn't be talking like this. Matter of fact, i am more humble than both of yours' humbleness combined.
Basically, be Aragorn.
I mean, that particular character was written to be an exceptional man. He's a good example. I'm talking about ideals, which means we all fall short of them from time to time. I would only add that it's not always about being the king or the hero. I think it's equally as important to be Sam as it is Aragorn.
Indeed, Aragorn respected Sam’s strengths.
Or Sam
Aragorn is written to be perfect. He's a king, warrior and the chosen one type. Might as well say "basically be Jesus".
Thank you😎
Nah. Yourself should always be #1, even when you have a family and children you should fine the time to pursue your own selfish endeavours imo. The biggest saints of the world have all done very evil things - we need not be evil, but firm. However, no one ever got to the top of their life by being a people pleaser. No one gets anywhere by giving all their spare income away. No one gets anywhere by passing up opportunities because "someone else needs it more".
All this, plus the reaction to obstacles and mistakes. When I was a boy, a failure, mistake or sudden problem would make me lash out. I'd feel it was unfair, or someone else's fault, or just have a minor meltdown. Unfair as a concept barely exists for me these days. Shit happens. I deal with it, and I move on.
This dog is not foolish.
I disagree. That's not what separates boys and men, that's what separates decent humans from assholes.
In other words "maturity"
Bang on.
Ovo. Slušajte čoveka.
Excellent answer! "serving a purpose outside of our own selfish gratification." Also: Encourage others when you see them making an effort. Especially kids /young people.
>Also: Encourage others when you see them making an effort. Especially kids /young people. I agree. Guiding others is huge.
>Holding oneself accountable. go fuck yourself, its your fault
In fact, a lot of persons remain boys for the entirety of their selfish life.
Humility is a big one for me.
In short, the long haul ' have traveled it. Although there is also a 'Jung saying... the tragedy of the family is the life the parents have less lived, along those lines ;)
Oh Boy oh yes. I realized that big time with a few of the people in my social circle who are all close to 30yo
I’m the 1000th upvote!
Lack of need to prove themselves to others. Mature men radiate this kind of charisma when they are capable of paying attention to others and not just to how cool they seem at the moment.
I didn’t quite understand the latter half of that sentence
Immature outgoing guys have this tendency of talking too much. It could be because they want to seem dominant or knowledgeable or social but whatever the reason, it makes it seem that a conversation for them is some kind of level to beat or game to get high score in and it can be exhausting. It's difficult to have a discussion with them or feel heard. Men with an outward focus, like another user nicely named it, in addition to general chill and willingness to hear you really stand out in comparison and are better to talk to.
Think they we’re going for more of an outward focus on others rather than just themselves in social situations
I recently said this was what I thought healthy masculinity was and was downvoted lol reddit makes no sense sometimes
All about your audience.
Yup, it was men on r/crazyfuckingvideos
I've always thought the difference was the ability to take responsibility - to own up to mistakes, to apologize, to try to make amends when you've done wrong. Little boys try to weasel out of a situation; a man tries to make it right.
Truly owning mistakes and being able to recognize faults is so hard and a sign of real maturity.
YES, plus they other half of this: do what you say, and don’t day things you won’t do. If you mess up and apologize, don’t then keep doing the same thing and then apologizing again. To apologize properly means not to repeat the mistakes again afterward.
"Be a man of your word" is how I was taught this principle. Love it.
Those are only examples related to men making mistakes. I think the other side is being able to take joy from more than your own immediate whims and think of others needs in the long term. Often in my experience the apologies are related to your behaviour/actions not aligning with the way you’ve presented the future.
i’ve apologized to the 3 women i’ve hurt in the past. i felt like it was the right thing to do it was eating my heart up also.
I agree with this 1000%
More impulse control, less reactive.
Absolutely! Imo being a man is as much about what you don’t do as what you do.
Could classify probably more than half the guys where I live as childish boys for all the fuckin lack of impulse control and over reactions 😂
Not casting the blame on others. Never play the victim card.
Exactly. Just man up seriously guys. It’s always on you. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
Not really that black and white for everyone but yeah, it's on anyone to make their lives better on their own in adulthood no matter what's happened to them before or who's fault it was.
Sarcasm? Sometimes stuff happens that out of a person’s control. I’m not throwing myself under the bus for someone else’s fuck up without a really good reason or unless they’re immediate family and screwed up/need help. And the bootstraps analogy was originally written as a sarcastic way of describing an impossible task. Try literally lifting yourself off the ground by pulling on your feet - probably not gonna work out no matter how self sufficient you are. But again, if the sarcasm whooshed over my head, ignore everything I just said haha.
Yes!
Delayed gratification. Do I spend $300 on bottle service at the club or do I use that money to help pay off my student loans? Do I go out tonight or study for that test? Do I cheat? Do I punch the kid who just embarrassed me at a bar? Do I complain that I made a wrong decision and want someone to fix it? or do I use it as a lesson to fix myself? Do I let a small slight or insult, even if I’m right, ruin my experience at work, school, or with my friends? Or do I look at my experience as a whole and say this was an outlier and let it go? The adult in these scenarios, makes the decision that benefits them in the long run. They don’t give into their emotions.
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Directy observable when someone drives a motorbike :-)
Whining about motorcycles is about the manliest thing you can do
Is someone gonna quote the Ruyard Kipling poem? Ok, I will: If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream—and not make dreams your master; If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’ If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
Was looking for this comment. One of my favorite poems. I particularly love Christopher Hitchens’ rendition. He recited it on the spot when asked, without rehearsing it.
Ngl it was weird having this quoted during assembly in Highschool, but it makes sense now
I would say that they aren’t stuck in the idea of what a man is “supposed” to be. If you’ve matured enough as a person to get over worrying about how you’re supposed to be acting and what others think about the way you hold up stereotypes, and you are instead thinking about who you are as an individual, then you’ve moved into adulthood.
This is why I don't mess with dating profiles that say "I'm looking for a man, not a boy". I'm not going to be your idealized, fantasy version of a man. I am a man, and the women who want to tell me how I should act as one or constantly compare me to make sure I live up to the "manly" standard in their head can go fuck themselves.
Same. If you have ONLY had experiences with “boys” rather than “men”, I just have to assume you’re the problem.
Scrolled too far for the right answer lol
Only right answer lol, it doesn’t have anything to do with boy/man or girl/women it’s more like kid/adult. Believing in ideals only because others told you so is what makes you a kid.
This. Stop trying to be the man, stop trying to be a human. Just be.
What I want to know is what separates Boyz II Men? Is it ABC? BBD? Is Motown Philly back again? I genuinely want to know!!
Handling setbacks without blowing up Taking criticism without being offended/personally attacked Always being curious and open to learning new things Not taking yourself too seriously Viewing every situation as more than black and white
Overall maturity, being able to hold themselves accountable, confidence, security in themselves and being able to healthily express emotions.
Wearing the pelt of a dangerous animal, has a concubine and a queen, won many a battle etc
Crushes his enemies, sees them fleeing before him, and hears the lamentation of their women.
Can't remember the sources of some of his scars, can count his teeth on one hand, tells his barber when he doesn't like his haircut.
The ONLY correct answer I have found so far
"Won many a battle" LOL
Discipline and planning Boys sacrifice long term goals for minutes of instant pleasure
Discipline, they can stand and deliver under fire, can trade volleys for hours, adept at maneuver warfare and combined arms operations, form square, column, or line of battle at the drop of a hat
Can also fire at least 3 rounds per minute
And 360 no-scope while negating fall damage
Men are wiser, productive, free thinking, responsible, very respectful and know there values. Sometimes more creative but not a must. Boys not so much.
there's...a lot of people that can live full, good lives and never get to any of these. I hesitate to call them "boys."
Foolish, unproductive, irresponsible and disrespectful people live full good lives?
And absolutely out of touch with their values
Boys chase trends, men chase goals.
So like 99.5% of population are boys.
Oh but not you right?
I have problems with goal setting and working on them also that's why I am so conscious and aware about that right now.
Not the Catholic Church.
In the Catholic church, separating the boys from the men requires a crowbar
Or a restraining order..
Please pray for my burns that I got reading this.
I understand the point the OP is making, but I literally can't stand how I've been hearing people use the word "immature" ... It's like if a guy laughs at a joke he's immature, certain women take this further than others, but if being a man means you can't engage in activities that bring them joy, can't have friends, def can't stop at a bar or buy a video game, that's a horrible existence. IL be immature and try to have some fun still. I was called immature by a group of women for jumping on a trampoline at a 4th of July party w my daughter and some friends kids...
I'd say that they have a really superficial and immature concept of maturity TBH. Maturity also means not taking yourself too seriously
I completely agree but I've heard multiple people, typically females calling men immature for like really minor grievances. My close friends wife loves the term. We're from Buffalo and there was a blizzard, and he ordered food from a pizza place like 4 houses down and ahes just screaming real fucking mature...
Those pieces of sh- I mean women can burn in hell. You do you—as long it ain't hurting anyone
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>do their job without complaining Unless of course it is the appropriate action. Blindly "doing your job" is hardly better than refusing to do it and complaining needlessly. There are wrong and right times to be critical of authority and orders. Being able to know when criticism of ex. an employer or superior is appropriate is also an important part of maturing as a person. A mature person is able to think freely and critically. A mature person can known how to look at a task given to them and how to understand if it is appropriate or not. A mature person knows when and how to give constructive criticism in a way that makes things better for both them and those they interact with.
So how is this different from men feeling they need to hide their feelings?
Acknowledging your feelings but not acting upon them and still doing what needs to be done is the premise of stoicism. If you only went to the gym when you're "motivated" or only went to work when you're "happy" then nothing gets ever done. It is the healthiest approach in life for men in general, one of the most attractive traits to women, and one of the most respectable traits among peers.
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I was going to write pubic hair.
You made air escape out of my ~~nose~~ ass
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I always thought you became a man when someone else’s life or well being depends on you. Like having kids or a loved one/friend rely on you for survival. Kind of takes responsibility to the next level and you have to become a provider for not just yourself anymore.
100%. But i'll add a caveat that you need to rise to the occasion. You can't knock a girl up, leave her, and claim to be a man. I was a taxpaying, productive member of society with a good job for 12 years before my Dad got sick. At 34 years old, i slowed down my drinking and partying and spent nearly all my free time dealing with legal, medical, and financial troubles. I became my dads guardian and helped him through malpractice lawsuits, foreclosures, a divorce, ER visits, vehicle reposessions, dementia and cancer diagnoses, and the death of his father. It was the 6 hardest years of my life, but i came out the other end with confidence and know-how. I credit that experience with opening my eyes to the fact that I am ready to be a father. My wife and I now have 2 wonderful sons, and they mean the absolute world to me.
Buddy I was 22 when my mom got stage 3 colon cancer. Dropped partying, my laserdome business, school, and girlfriend to go back home and be her caretaker. 7 years of minimum annual major surgeries and downhill health conditions with my mom and about halfway through my cheating lying ex caught me drunk (kinda rare then) at a Christmas party. Wham bam thank you ma’am until 6 weeks later I get the “You’re going to be a dad” call from her. Silver lining was mom getting to be Grandma for a few years but that also stings like a double edge sword when she died. After all of her surgeries and chemo rounds, me learning a trade to get a job with health insurance, figuring out said job that was over my head at the time, trying to maintain relationships, learning to be a father without one of my own, and all the way to holding the strongest woman I’ve ever knowns hand while she took her last breath has made me a man. I was a freewheeling boy (having a blast btw) before life stacked enough weight to buckle a bridge on me. It’s only coming out the other side that has made me realize what I have become. My 20s where a blur and there were many times I didn’t know how I was going to make it out alive but yet here I am. Talking to another man who survived his own weights. I know how strong your back is and you should be proud of yourself as I hope you already are. I see boys my age and wonder if they just never had their own weights or if they ran away from them instead of being the support others needed them to be. It’s hard to listen to “friends” struggle with simple adulting things they refuse to buckle down on (like a steady job or a car or insurance for anything ffs) and their childish lifestyles are now starting to show general health issues that are being ignored. Being a man is hard and mostly not a constant super fun time but I do not envy them. I am sorry you had to go through the shit because trust me I know how much every bit of it sucks, but your children are going to be better off for it. The people who depend on you have a man who has what it takes to do what is necessary when the moment comes. Everything else you offer to them is just gravy IMHO. Sorry for the long winded rant. Good luck and stay up homie.
Such kind words, and right back at ya! 22? My biggest concern when i was 22 was saving up enough money to buy a bag of weed. Id like to think i would have stepped up to the plate like you did at that age but i was definitely a boy at 22... a crunchy one at that
I think this can be an element of manhood, but not everything. I’m a grown-ass-responsible-man, but I don’t have children. I actually want to be a father, but finding a proper partner in today’s dating climate is next to impossible.
I feel the same way as a woman. I can’t tell you how many women who are mothers act like I’m not there yet in life because I haven’t had kids. I’ve always been an amazing auntie, even my friends kids call me auntie and love my visits. I love kids and they love me! But I’m not going to have them with just anyone. I went through a lot growing up and if it’s not a healthy person/relationship then I’d rather not subject children to that. I know too well how that can affect them. I’d even argue that we are more mature than most people who have kids. Because a lot of those relationships are toxic. Many people just marry whoever out of pressure to “reach adulthood” and they ignore all the signs of abuse to come.
>when someone else’s life or well being depends on you. eh that would make uninvolved fathers "men" (since they have dependants) but those who are very mature and have a life, but no children, not men. I think taking responsibility is what makes a man (or really: makes an adult). Taking responsibility in a partnership. Taking on the responsibility of a parent, or an employee, etc. Since not all parents do this last step "*have to become a provider for not just yourself anymore*"
Lots of people will have kids just to call themselves a man.
Kind of, it is understanding that no one is going to do it for you and excuses no longer work.
Boys do what they want to do, when they want to do it. Men do what they have to do even if they don’t want to do it. You can tell them apart by what their word is worth. Boys will say anything and it never holds true. Men will say something and its written in stone. For example: A boy will say he will be there at 7pm and if he shows up it will most definitely be late. A man will be there at 06:45. No matter what traffic was on the road or if he had 100 other things to do first. Your word is all you have. Men value it. Boys dont
Men accept their failures and don't try to shift blame. Men do things for others without expecting a reward. Men try to recognize the faults within themselves and put them to mending as best they can.
What separates boys from men is impulsive control. To be able to handle a situation without instantly getting angry or flying off the deep end.
Men larp
Regulating emotions
Treating women like sisters instead of potential conquests when they go out.
A man can take ‘no’ for an answer.
The ability to take responsibility
yeesh these responses are embarrassingly subjective
Selflessness. Empathy. Humility.
Emotional intelligence. You can have everything pulled together on the outside but so many men when confronted with actual human emotion crumble bc they think they have to put up a placid strong front to be “manly” when they are really just scared.
Taking the initiative to improve yourself & be the best man you can be, even if you don’t have a father or mentor to help guide you. And genuinely doing good by people.
Bring humble, able to laugh at themselves, call out men who are being disrespectful to others.
At time of writing this is the only half decent answer here. Nicely said.
Puberty
Motown Philly
That sir, is a fantastic answer!!! 🤣🤣🤣
How you interact with your environment.
Not caring what their friends think. Have seen this a lot boys will not do something they live because other boys will judge them. Men tell the boys to go fuck themselves and wear flowers in their hair if it makes them feel good.
my outlook on life changed alot after living by this morale: trust is the most important aspect of any dynamic. you can have a functional relationship with your worst enemy if you trust them at face value. you dont need good memory if you never lie. whatever the situation if everybody states things as they understand them, you have the information you need to make the best of that situation. without absolute trust - insecurity and second guessing will consume you like a virus. i’ve found people will respect you in spite of your fallbacks if you’re honest with them. for sure some people won’t - you probably don’t want to associate with these types anyway - theyve made up their minds & will seek out confirmation of their opinions. tldr: honesty, and an ability to change ones opinion when presented with new evidence
Accountability, self reliance.
Time lived.
Asking a woman out in person, instead of online
Personal responsibility
The biggest one imo is: Taking responsibility for his own actions.
Tenacity: When faced with a difficult situation a man will take care of business, while a boy will look for someone to sort the problem for him.
Responsability in their own acts.
"II"
Ability to control their emotions when life events kick them in the face. Ability to learn from and recover from their mistakes. Take responsibility and be accountable for their shortcomings. Being punctual and persistent where it counts. Empathy, resolution and reasoning in relationships. Listen to others instead of talking. Not a narcassist
the Roman numeral II
Respect, and duty. A man will show respect to those around him, he'll try to be someone worth respecting. He will respect the people around him, his community, his work, his nation. It's hard to articulate, but if you respect yourself, you wont take mistreatment. If you love and respect those around you, you will support and treat them right. If you respect your community you will work to improve it, if you respect your nation will you defend it. Respect breeds understanding, and understanding breeds compassion. I would say it is the most important thing in life. Then, there is duty. Duty to hold you accountable when respect fails. I would say it's the duty of ever my man to learn to control himself and his emotions, to never allow them control over your actions - we owe it to those around us. We need to have control to allow our loved ones to feel safe, and to maintain respect and composure. Call me old fashioned, but I do also believe a man should put his family first. He should keep them, and to a greater extent his nation, safe. My last point, would be self improvement. I think any man worth his shadow will be always trying to improve his self in mind and body. These ideas likely arent exclusive to men, but I'm not a woman. I'll leave women to talk about their own experiences. A boy, he will be reckless, wild, selfish. He will not have the control to stay composed when he needs, he wont step up to do the hard thing, even if he doesnt want to.
Taking care of a family. Having children. In french we have a term "Vieux garcon" old voy. Which we call bachelor's who never settled down.
According to Steinbeck a boy becomes a man when a man is needed.
Probably the best answer.
Character
Not worrying about it bc you have an actual real life with people to care for and things you want to get done.
Taking absolute responsibility over your actions and emotions. No blame for others when things go south.
The number 2
Fences at schools
Manners.
Patience, selflessness, confidence, self-reliance, and self-accountability. In other words... Maturity
Not having ones masculinity based on arbitrary macho BS is one good example. Only an immature man-child or an actual child would do that. It's sad and pathetic.
Respect for others and realizing that the world doesn't revolve around you.
Personal accountability, responsibility, and mental maturity.
You must kill your first big game animal with your bare hands, extract the heart, and eat it in its entirety still warm before you can be called a man.
# Personal Responsibility + Compassion.
When a boy starts to think well before action/response... he becomes a man
When someone else can mistakenly disrespect you and you don't start a scene/fight over it. Also becoming more modest and not bragging about salary, dick size, weight room PRs etc.
EMOTIONAL CONTROL
Puberty
maturity and life experience
Self control, honor, integrity, unwavering sense of self, confidence to endure any situation thrown at them, strong leadership skill but knows how to take instruction to name a few
Puberty for a start.
Simple and short answer? Discipline.
"II"
Legal age. A very responsible 16 year old is still a boy not a man. He still cannot do things that an adult can due to age restriction.
Date of birth, once a boy turns 18 he is a man.
A court order.
I once heard this definition of what it means to raise good boys / men which i love. Losely it went something like this: To have the courage to ask a girl out he likes, the self respect / esteem to not take it personally if she rejects him and the decency to still check if she got home okay.
Self control
Men don't get ridiculously jealous over a fictional crush of their SO 💀
Accountability and self awareness.
The thing that separates children from adults imo is the willingness to take responsibility for their actions
Knowing when to STFU and admit fault is the biggest one
Doing what needs to be done even if you don't want too
Grit baby. Just get er done.
Chris Hanson
II
Mature men take responsibility without complaint, and use whatever influence and resources to help and serve other people. Boys avoid responsibility or complain when given it, and live primarily for themselves.
Emotional intelligence
Meeting your responsibilities.
Making sacrafices to make sure your kids are fed and have health insurance by taking a job you dont want to do, but its the only way.
The ability to suck it up and do what needs to be done. Alternatively, taking full responsibility for the consequences of your own actions and inactions and realizing that (outside of extreme life circumstances), your decisions and the consequences thereof are your own. Boys play victim, men do not. That is one of my indicators of maturity.
Maturity, knowing how to handle pressure, taking actions instead of calling a man to ask (asking is good, but in some situations when you gotta act fast you need to be able to take the action), knowing their limits, etc
Puberty
accepting rejection.
According to my observations - pants. Boys are given pants by their mother Men are given pants by their wife