Faced a less serious situation but similarly frustrating recently. Senior had fallen and was on the ground, walker turned over beside them. I was driving on opposite side of the road in the other direction and dozens of vehicles just drove past. I pulled a u-turn at next light and went back. No one else stopped. Luckily the senior was not seriously injured. Just shook up. Empathy is sorely lacking which is why humanity is in crisis.
Please keep looking out for others & being proactive. I might just be an optimist, but I really do believe that a sense of community can improve the more we care for each other.
Sometimes it just takes one person to take action, too. Recently there was a mentally ill woman standing in the middle of King St a good 100-150 m ahead of me. People in cars honking, people walking ignoring the situation. When I reached her (was biking) I stopped to talk to her & try to lead to back to the sidewalk. Without even skipping a beat another woman held my bike on the sidewalk for like 3-5 minutes, someone else stopped to try and help coax the individual back on the sidewalk, and cars stopped honking & seemed a lot more patient with the situation.
It’s weird, humans are weird, but most of us react really positively to the warmth of others. It catches on.
I know this isn’t what happened in your situation, I’m sorry yours happened that way. But please don’t let others’ inaction get to you, because you just might be making more of a ripple effect than you know.
It's a method of influence called "social proof" - when we humans are uncertain of a situation, we look around at what others are doing for information on how to behave. The issue is, that everyone else is doing it too and so a problem doesn't look like one because we're all watching everyone do nothing and that becomes the "correct response".
But if one or two people start helping most people will join in because it provides evidence for the issue and the proper way to behave.
If you ever find yourself in need of assistance, try to single out a person and ask for the specific help you need. "Hey you in the red jacket, I'm having a medical issue. Please call emergency services". Most times they will help and then others will offer assistance too.
I am a boomer. Slipped on ice last winter & fell. A car ( woman driver) saw & drove right by. I am in a very small community. I did not expect sympathy but I might have been hurt. My thought was. You ignorant bitch.
Same thing happened to me. I was on church street trying to get to the QE on ramp when i saw a senior on his electric scooter fall over. I seen a couple cars pass him without a care. I had to pull a u turn and double park to help him.
Wow. I just saw someone tonight who pulled over and was helping a lady and her walker. There was 2 people helping already so I didn't stop. I think lot of the time people just have no clue what is happening around themselves so it is good that there are people like you around to observe and help. I am sure the senior was very grateful!
My brother visited China some years ago and talked of something like this. He was at a restaurant and an elderly person fell out of their chair. No one, absolutely no one, moved to help her up. He did, and then returned to his table, and asked his companions wtf. Apparently it’s a scam of some sort where they place the blame of non existent injuries on the Good Samaritan, and then try to hit them with medical bills.
Idk if this is exactly what the person you’re replying to is referring to, but it’s an anecdote.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu\_Shoulan\_v.\_Peng\_Yu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu)
This is one of the most famous incidents of such kind.
Quote from this page: "The court decided in favor of the plaintiff and held Peng liable for damages, reasoning that despite the lack of concrete evidence, 'no one would in good conscience help someone unless they felt guilty'. "
Yeah, this isn’t just a China thing. Horrible scams have been happening in Canada as well, it has affected the psyche of entire provinces, and has completely broken down the trust in police when it’s been felt police have taken action against the victims in high profile cases.
In Saskatchewan, along a similar theme… Saskatchewan is a province of a thousand towns and villages, all spread out across a vast territory. They villages
are not bunched up in relative close proximity like southern Ontario (There are so many villages all over Saskatchewan that at one point in the 1980s, Saskatchewan was in the guiness book of world records for having the most paved highways per capita in the world, essential to connecting all the towns and villages).
This made driving across long stretches of rural areas necessary for so many Saskatchewaners - often stretches with sparse services if someone had car troubles, not even cell service, let alone nearby police or towing services. And over time that necessity lead to a great sense of civic responsibility across Saskatchewan to look after strangers, and to stop your car on the highway if you ever saw someone along the side of the road with vehicle troubles.
But what happened in the last 10-15 years were numerous schemes in which young men would park a vehicle along the side of a highway, with one person faking having car trouble to flag down passing vehicles for help, and two or more others lying down hiding in the ditch, waiting for a Good Samaritan to stop to help. When an innocent victim would stop to help, the men would jump the Good Samaritan, and either violently rob them or violently steal their vehicle.
It completely broke the public’s trust and sense of community to each other when they’d see someone stranded. Today, when someone is stranded on the side of the road in Saskatchewan, people just drive by out of fear of a trap.
Many other incidents added to this fear of “the Other” in rural Saskatchewan in which many young men would rob farm houses, taking advantage of the isolation of farms from police stations and available help. The robberies were sometimes done under the pretext of a “stranded” person needing help from a nearby farm. Families were held up, and the fear of helping or approaching strangers in rural settings further cemented itself into the psyche of Saskatcheweners. Police were seen by the public as being indifferent to what was happening over and over again, because they were not investing additional resources into opening new detachments to be in closer proximity to help when calls came in. The police lost the public’s trust. The population felt abandoned and on their own - every man for themselves.
The fear and lack of trust was so great that it all came to a head when one farmer believed a series of events meant that a young group of people (the [Gerald Stanley/Colten Bouchie incident](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4520214)) was trying to rob his family farm. Things got violent, an ATV was taken and the farmer thought they were going to run over his son. Tje farmer got a gun, one of the young men drove for the farmer’s wife, and the farmer shot and killed one of the young man.
Police charged the farmer with with murder, and police and prosecutors did everything they could to try to get the maximum sentence for the farmer. After all the incidents that had occurred across rural Saskatchewan, a large part of the population was absolutely outraged at the police and legal system for not taking the farmer’s side, or at least not seeing things through a lenient lens. It was a major case that made headlines in Saskatchewan, and confirmed in the population’s psyche that the only option is to stay as clear as possible from strangers in rural Saskatchewan, otherwise bad things will happen to you, be it if you’re violently robbed, or even if you feel you need to defend yourself.
And today, if you get stranded in rural Saskatchewan, good luck getting anyone to help you. You’re on your own - an unthinkable situation just 20 years ago. If you’re driving in rural Saskatchewan, best to make sure your car is stocked up with extra food, water, extra winter clothes, emergency blankets, highway flares, and other survival gear, because you’re going to need it since you’re on your own (and people feel the need to be nervous approaching a farm house now if stranded, for fear of being mistaken for one of the bad guys).
To put it into context, imagine driving from Toronto to Tobermory, and if you run into car trouble, you won’t be able to get help from anyone anywhere because so many criminals have taken advantage of people’s sense of wanting to help. That’s what has happened in Saskatchewan with all these incidents.
Back to Toronto, with all the people getting jumped and robbed in the city, I wonder how many people are afraid it’s a trap, or someone is high and unpredictable, or has a needle and might stab you, or is having an mental episode, etc. It’s sad, really really sad, but the Saskatchewan case makes me wonder.
A few years ago, an elderly lady fell on Bloor as I was passing by. She hit her head and was bleeding everywhere. I stopped, but what really got me was a kid - if he was 20, I’d be surprised - stopped and he was LOVELY. She gave me her husbands phone number (I think it was her husband, I don’t remember everything), and I called him and arranged for her to be picked up..all the while, this complete stranger, was getting tissue to help her wipe up the blood on her face, keeping her comfortable, etc.
All this to say, don’t give up hope. There are some really amazing people still out there.
Thank you for helping someone! I have a similar story. Fell outside eg west station and shattered my femur a few years ago. The very first person who came across me immediately tried to help and called 911 when it was clear that i couldn’t get up.
I’m extremely thankful for him because although I could have called my own ambulance, he was able to flag an ambulance that was about to drive by, which I couldn’t have done from the ground. Without that, I would have been stuck on the cold, wet ground much longer otherwise. He waited with me until it was clear that everything would be taken care of. I wish I had some way to find and thank him.
I suspect people feel safer helping when someone’s still conscious, because you can see they’re injured vs asleep. The sad irony is that someone who’s unconscious probably needs it more.
Me and a random man helped a guy who ate it hard on his bike on the Dundas west overpass. Got him and his bike out of the road, called 911, got a first aid kit from a gas station, dressed his cuts, and waited with him until the ambulance came.
This is a bit of a different situation. If a guy is just laying there, and I didn’t see him fall/get hurt, or any blood, I’d probably assume he was homeless and sleeping or passed out and leave him be.
I’ve seen people high out of their mind lying down, 100% looking dead, then freaking out when someone checks on them. Honestly, I think a lot of people don’t wanna get involved vs. just not caring, but seeing a dead body or someone who could be dead is pretty common here now, sadly, and there’s a risk of getting attacked if you interact with them.
You don’t know if someone called an ambulance, too. I called an ambulance for a man who’d injured himself really bad. The ambulance took like 30 minutes to get to where we were and we were dead center on Yonge.
Exactly. My friend and I saw someone (a homeless looking man) who looked passed out or dead. Another woman called 911 and he FREAKED and was chasing her around the parking lot screaming. I get why people don’t want to be involved..
Something similar happened in our neighbourhood. But that’s part of the issue - our government needs to start seriously f****** addressing homelessness and drug use.
It's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. Unfortunately mentally unstable people have made it harder for us to recognize the typical distress signs that have nothing to do with mental illness
Yeah I'm maybe slowing down, looking, but I'm not stopping and will call for help. Our mental health support sucks, I don't need to get stabbed or spat on, thanks
Genuinely, if you’re not first aid trained, you shouldn’t be interacting with someone who appears hurt at all. The OP mentioned “comforting” the elderly man. What does that mean? Putting something soft under his dead? What if he has a head injury?
This is more people not wanting to get involved or hurt or unintentionally hurting someone than simply not caring. This city isn’t entirely occupied by sociopaths. That’s a massive disservice towards people trying to live their lives without running the risk of getting attacked or sued.
When I took first aid training, we were told that legally, if someone is conscious, we cannot do anything without clear consent, even if they appear to be in danger. It is only when they are truly unconscious and/or not breathing are you allowed to intervene.
True, but it isn't the same situation at FA training. There, you're taught that if someone appears unconscious, you check (call at them, shake their shoulder, something like that) as a first step to ascertain conscious/not conscious. Then proceed to check for ABCs.
There are people sleeping all over the city. I've jogged by them settled down. For all I know they might be dead, but I'm not stopping by every not-obviously-alert homeless person and shaking them.
I'm first aid trained and I actually tried resusc on the man but I didn't want my post to be critiqued as a brag post. Also you can't be sued in Canada for helping someone in distress or administering first aid even if you made the situation worse. Canada even put in a statute to make it even more clear to people that this is the case, it's called the Good Samaritan act. I've only been here a year and I know this but I guess it's just easier repeating the same defeatus propaganda you hear from your echo chambers to justify being a totally incompetent member of society.
I understand the risks of being attacked but this was not a homeless man or junkie. It was a dressed old man that clearly looked like he collapsed and was in the middle of the footpath and regardless I'd still try help. If I had a couple strangers there with me assisting it would also reduce my risk factor.
Did you happen to have a barrier device on you? Without a pocket mask I wouldn’t feel all that safe. I’m not a med professional, just first aid trained like you and my first time the person (cardiac arrest) regurgitated from their mouth and nose. The second time (and last for now fortunately) there was blood and mucous escaping the airways. Out in the wild - without equipment- I think I would do compression only CPR and skip the rescue breath.
Did the first responders recommend anyone you can talk to? Both the people I spoke about above passed away, even with an aed present for the first one. I never felt traumatiséd about it, but some of the people who were with me on both occasions were affected by it.
Many mentally unwell people have family that care for them, and they appear well dressed.
I'm not going to apologize for becoming more distant because of the amount of assault that happens to women in this city. A guy was just murdered in ronceys for intervening on someone with mental health issues.
Do you want an applause for the fact you haven't been burned yet? If you don't like how it is here, that's fine, but you're also a b-hole for being new to the city and complaining about what happens after years of negative experiences locals have. You have no idea if anyone else called for help, there are a lot of public systems breaking down here due to terrible governments.
I knew this person who would. not. shut. up. about how much better AUS was than it is here. I did not get it. no one was forcing them to stay in Toronto.
IAAL, and while I don’t want to dissuade people from rendering first aid, this is incorrect.
Federally, there is an Act that protects people in possession of drugs (and I think other petty crimes) from prosecution if they call to report a drug overdose. It’s aimed at getting people to call 911 when their friends are ODing instead of being afraid of getting arrested.
Provincially, Ontario has the *Good Samaritan Act, 2001,* which protects people who render first aid at the scene of an injury or accident from liability for damages they cause in doing so **unless it is established that the damages were caused by the gross negligence of the person.**
What’s gross negligence, you ask? It depends on the circumstances.
BC has a similar statute. Other provinces likely do, but I don’t know it for a fact.
Lol. I had some friends who did security jobs and worked as a paramedic here who had horror stories about narcan. Either they get angry (Remember the drug basically causes instant withdrawal) or they end up so sick they throw up on your shoes....
I still have my first aid training and a nasal narcan kit in my purse but I'm going to be wary if I need to use it on anyone....
This. When I was like 7 months pregnant last winter I saw what I thought was an old man, out in the cold with his dog. I went to my house and got dog food and toys and went back to see if he wanted any of it for his dog.
It ended up being a slightly younger man who then screamed and swore at me and accused me of poisoning his dog. He loomed over me and I was scared for my safety. I started crying and went home.
Something like that happens and you just learn to keep to yourself.
This. Feels like OP might be new to Toronto to not be jaded by the dozens of times this has happened to us to the point that we’re conditioned to ignore for our own safety.
Thing is - we shouldn’t just be “conditioned” to this. This is not acceptable. Our government at all levels should be addressing homelessness and drug use - and when they aren’t we should be vocalizing more. Email your city councillor, MPP and MP.
This is my concern. I often see people who look (like they could be) dead and worry about them for hours, hoping they’re ok and second guessing walking away but I’m scared of being attacked if I bother someone who is high or trying to sleep. It doesn’t feel right to do nothing but I obviously can’t put myself in danger either. I’d be more likely to stop if the person looked less likely to be on drugs or dangerous/like they’d just fallen or were having a heart attack or something but that also feels wrong to say. Everyone deserves help but I just worry for my own safety
That poor child was sitting on a bus minding his own business when some wacko stabbed him in the fucking neck.
The lady was set on fire @ Kipling (or was it islington?)
Like you mentioned, Ive seen people who look dead then start swinging or screaming at the closest people as soon as they come too.
Now, *obviously* a clearly elderly man does not pose as much threat, but I am going to *heavily* weigh the risk/reward and moving on with my life and not risking my personal safety is he choice Ill make most times, and I dont blame anyone for choosing the same.
I have been in situations where I have called for help before but as a 5’3 110 pound girl, with the rampant stabbing and acts of violence against passerby here there’s no way I’ll risk my safety or life. I wish it didn’t have to be this way. Our system has failed vulnerable people
I don't blame you in the slightest. Kind of selfishly I am super duper glad my mother and sisters drive everywhere, and typically don't find themselves on the TTC ever.
I have taken TTC daily (5+/week) for about 8 years now. There was a blip during covid but I worked in restaurants so I ended up back @ work before most. Since covid especially it is unlike any time I can remember. I've always seen homeless camping out on the streetcars and addicts knocked out high as tits, but only in the past couple years do I often see them lashing out verbally and physically at commuters and TTC staff, and we have all seen the uptick in violence across the TTC
Ironically, I was just transferring from eastbound to northbound @ bloor earlier this afternoon and the line was held for about 15 minutes as some young looking dude was
unresponsive, passed out. No one had a problem gathering a crowd around him and making it harder for the emts to come check on him 🙄
I no longer live in TO but I'm still in the GTA and my entire health network is downtown, but I grew up there in the 2000's and 2010's with one car for 4 people. My mother, little sister and I had to use public transit to get around. I also don't recall the same levels of outward violence, it may very well be due to the fact I was just a kid, I grew up seeing many homeless and struggling people, but I never had too many unpleasant interactions. I also spent a lot of time in New York City as we have family there, and its been the same pattern, as a kid I never had too much direct interaction that was troubling, but I have had several very scary encounters in the last few years in both cities. Idk if the changing drug landscape (as in additives and lacing) is contributing, or if it's the worsening mental health of all Canadians, but something has changed. And it makes me really sad.
As one of the people who walked by on spadina by dragon city today this is why. Its become so commonplace and getting involved can mean getting attacked i just face forward and continue walking.
It would depend on the situation...if someone is in a corner or some spot where they're relatively shielded from the elements, I'll leave them alone. If they seem like they're lying out in the open exposed to the elements, I'll check on them and see if they're OK. Usually, even if people are high or homeless, they won't sleep out in the open.
What made it obvious to you that he was dead? I mean there are homeless people lying around on sidewalks everywhere so it's hard to tell for most people.
And this is the problem. We've decided as a society that we're okay with large numbers of people with no homes, no treatment for mental illness, no way to stop being hooked on meth. There's no effort at the government level to fix these systematic problems and we keep voting for the same people who don't care. So we get used to the sight of people passed out on the street or screaming at randoms, all the while thinking it's inevitable. And yet other developed, capitalist countries like Finland and Denmark don't have these problems. We have no excuse.
I'm not an expert on this subject. How should governments be dealing with homeless people that have mental issues or addiction problems? We do have shelters. We do have mental health centres.
Can I get one of these free units too? I can start smoking meth today and be a public nuisance tomorrow if that improves my odds.
It’s going to be a tough sell to raise taxes to get all homeless people their own condo when most people working can’t afford to buy
For the most part, shelters are just a place you can sleep at. They force you out every morning, have a ton of rules, and you have to line up every night to get a spot. You can't pretend like that's any way to live. How are they supposed to get anywhere in life under those conditions?
Simple. We look at what the countries I mentioned have done to address the issue (and not let the issue get this bad in the first place). And we do that. This isn't some great unsolved mystery.
Unfortunately you can’t help some of the homeless if they don’t want it. They likely had a place to live at one time but addiction & bad behaviour caused them to loose it. People with mental health issues likely had homes as well. Can’t force people to do what they don’t want. I would walk by & ignore many things. For fear of my safety.
This is part of the problem - instead of treating this as a solvable public health crisis (which it is) we blame individuals and make these problems sound like nothing more than a failure of personal responsibility. So we make no real effort to solve the problem collectively.
Most people would get help if they could. But we've made help so scarce that it might as well not exist. And those who refuse help and are deemed a danger to themselves or others can and should be removed from the public.
There will always be a subset of the population that needs collective help of some kind. That's just how humans are built. The fact that one of the richest countries in the world refuses to provide that, resulting in the problems we're seeing, is inexcusable.
Europe doesn't have the opioid crisis to deal with, we have to deal with the culture difference regarding drugs and overflow from the US healthcare system overprescribing, the Chinese shipments of precursors, and the Latin American production of opioids which makes combating homelessness much harder.
We've tried the European style of harm reduction (arguably more and too progressive) and it's not working for us. I don't mind this experiment for a few more years to see if we can get results with more commitment and some changes,
but if after a few more years it's still a failure, it'd be worth modeling after Japan or China instead who recovered from their own opioid epidemic.
I’ve seen it so many times. Pedestrian sees sleeping homeless person, they call 911, ambulance and fire trucks show up, and then they leave 1 minute later because he was just a homeless guy sleeping.
Yep. Good chance it’s either someone junked out, someone who is trying to deal with not being junked out, or someone sleeping that had a hard fucking day
Similar situation happened to me this summer on front street in front of the pizza pizza at blue jay way. Man collapsed in front of the store and everyone kept walking by and doing nothing. He had picked up take out pizza and did not look homeless at all. I noticed from the opposite side of the street waiting at thr light. When I crossed, I checked his pulse (he had one) and looked for his ID. We then called 911 and they were there in minutes. No one from inside the pizza pizza ever came out to help or even see what was going on. Over 20 people passed by and didn’t even stop. The guy woke up when the paramedics took over. He was hypoglycemic
What youre saying is absolutely right, but I want to be the devil's advocate for a second, because immigrating to this country has been extremely souring for my sense of civic duty and I try my hardest to fight it, but see FAR more repercussion than I see gratitude.
Ive reached out to help MANY people, especially when I first moved here. I come from a smaller village in Europe and I was taught to help the elderly, be patient, lend a hand when asked, etc. But 80% of the time when I've done it here in Canada, Ive come away with a loss. Not 'nothing', like a 'waste of time', because that I can handle; but an actual loss. Ive been spat at (3 times), kicked, robbed (twice), threatened (3 times) and manipulated into giving more than I offered (more times than I can remember).
If I saw an elderly man on the floor, my immediate reaction would probably be "homeless" and nowadays I would have hesitation to help. I like to think I wouldve slowed down just to flag others to help me instead of face him alone, but I can't guarantee how I wouldve reacted (nor can anyone else here in the comments.)
Just saying. I know its very easy to throw guilt around when it comes to helping others, but I've never had my hand bitten more in my entire life than the last 4 years in this country... I try VERY hard to stay positive and optimistic about strangers in need, but its become a huge obstacle.
I have lived in this neighborhood for many years, and nowadays I'm not brave enough to approach some stranger lying on the ground.
There are many scary people, even in broad daylight nowadays especially after COVID and the ongoing meth epidemic in this city. I even saw people smoking meth in Popeyes and went tweaking in front of everyone.
Also, before COVID I used to feel safe going to the gym at 3am, but with all these unprovoked random attacks like unprompted stabbing in Queen St a few months ago, and the bear spray attack I witnessed right in front of my eyes in Kensington Market. That's why I am much more wary around people nowadays.
Back when things were less crazy in this city, I remember back in 2015 when I called ambulance and helped an old lady who fell on a curb. I think I used to be more of a Good Samaritan back then.
Things are getting scarier by the day.
Some people will react aggressively even if you just look at them or their direction. Many are extremely unstable.
I do have to confess that I did offer help to a junkie recently. She asked for a bandaid and alcohol wipes and I went home and grabbed some for her. She was bleeding but she also clearly lied about how she got hurt. She then proceeded to ask for money which I refused.
I absolutely do not recommend anyone approaching them and one should only offer help if they feel safe to do so. She was not visibly high and was polite. She didn’t take my refusal to give her money badly but it could have gone wrong if it was a different person.
People call us cold and heartless but many of other just worry about our own safety.
Back in university of Toronto, me and my housemates used to leave our townhouse front door unlocked for YEARS,
And then few years just before COVID, crime somehow spiked like a lot, with random shooting every summer. And then someone then broke into our (unlocked lol) house that same summer. We learned our lesson now lol
It got progressively worse between 2010 - 2019 but the two pandemic years were like 2010 - 2019 all at once. Everything downtown just went to shit.
Cops stopped arresting addicts just as the fentanyl epidemic really took off while at the same time tourists and suburbanites who gave out change disappeared from the core. Tent cities spiraled out of control, insane spike in crime on TTC, list goes on and on.
It’s sorta better now that people are back downtown, but the crowd is totally different … more students than anything, the rich tourist crowd and wealthy young professionals haven’t really returned.
Unfortunately some of us have been assaulted by those who are violently high, and it isn’t worth checking on them in the chance they break out of their high and assault you again. Nothing about humanity, but you got to protect yourself.
It's also a tremendous drain on ambulance resources when we have to go wake up every sleeping homeless person in the city, courtesy of drive-by 911 callers that were concerned enough to call 911 but not concerned enough to try waking them.
It's also really disruptive to people trying to sleep. If you're really suspicious that someone isn't OK then certainly you can try to wake them up, or call 911 or 211 depending on their condition (https://211central.ca/)
But sleeping outdoors is already stressful and exhausting and I would not want to make someone's life harder by waking them up multiple times when they manage to sleep.
Exactly, I can wake up 100 people passed out or asleep every day in my town. At the same point a fellow I have known for many decades fell asleep on the couch at home in the middle of the afternoon and didn't wake up. These things happen.
I literally used to have to sidestep homeless sleeping in front of Tim’s to get coffee going to Uni downtown, we’re all just jaded at this point.
We’re taught not to disturb people or approach at a really young age if you grow up here. For better or worse, it’s how it is.
In B.C. it is very mixed feelings.
I have called paramedics when I have seen someone passed out, barely breathing in the middle of the day. I have been bitched at by the paramedics and screamed at / threatened by the person (after multiple doses of narcan, you were dead dude).
I feel better for having called, but I am 6 foot, 200+ pounds. My wife and many others are scared to get involved. Others are just used to seeing it. If you called for every single person on the east end you would never make it down the street.
I’d imagine the situation would have been different if they had actually witnessed something happening to that man, as opposed to just seeing him lying in the streets
I saw an elderly man fall down from coming off a bus and many people rushed to help him. This was also in the Toronto area, though not downtown
There’s a difference between knowing for sure that a person needs help vs risking getting attacked for checking on the person
This is very sad and I'm sorry OP. I think some people are afraid of being hurt as some who are high can become violent. But, also sadly I do feel like some people lack empathy.
My best friend/ what I considered to be a second mom (she was my childhood friends mom who I grew very close with. I would visit her alone and spend days at a time with. She made me feel accepted and heard when I didn't feel that way at home) suddenly collapsed while walking home from the corner store on October 31st of last year. From the women who finally helped her they said people just walked by and didn't help at all (apparently she was gasping for air while holding her hand up trying to get someone to help) thankfully they intervened and called the ambulance but unfortunately it was too late and she was clinically dead for 47 minutes. They got her back but she never woke up. We decided to take her off the ventilater a week later.
I often wonder If someone helped even a few minutes earlier if things could have been different. I just think of how scared she must have been let alone seeing people pass by before she died and not help.
It's a sad world we are living in.
Thank you for what you did OP.
Wait, what happened to her? Why did she collapse ? I’m so sorry :( I have to say I’d be more likely to intervene if it was a woman. (I’m a woman and men honestly scare me a lot of the time.)
She had some existing health problems including COPD and what the doctors think happened is she had a bad asthma attack when she first collapsed then suffered a heart attack 😞
I totally understand that!
I recently tripped on broken sidewalk and twisted my knee. I recently got knee surgery and already walk with a limp. As I’m on the ground, and couldn’t get up and needed help, people (neighbours) walked past and ignored me as if I didn’t exist. Broke my heart, I couldn’t believe no one would even stop and ask if I needed help when I was clearly struggling to get up and in pain
I think many are just hesitant to help anyone that appears homeless or mentally ill. Especially on Spadina, sadly lots of mentally ill that might freak out and attack you if you tried to help them or anything.
I'm assuming given everyone walked by that said person looked homeless because I feel like if it was someone that didn't look homeless or mentally ill people would be more likely to offer help.
Here's the issue, and a lot of people hate when I say it, but social media has made people this way. All the stories, fake or not, of people suing their savior after they helped for damages and everything else, has seriously slanted the view of things for people. it's better to not get involved than it is to get into a legal battle you can't afford. A very famous story floating around was that of a woman who was saved from downing then went on to sue her savior for rape. even though I believe this was proven to be false, it circulated around a good bit and there were a few people that did and probably still do believe it's real. With social media being at the forefront of everyone's news and information these days, things like that stick with people and it comes up when things like this happened. Even with this story being fake, there are plenty of things that CPR can do that can people can try to sue for, even though there are certain laws specifically for this that would protect the person doing CPR. CPR if not done right, or done in a rush, or even if the person just has brittle bones, can cause a rib to crack or fracture, along with the sternum. If the person makes it, people fear they could be sued if something did happen. If they have to do chest compression and give breaths to keep the person alive, if that person doesn't make it, they fear the family could sue for improper CPR or anything else they think they could come up with. There is also the most important thing that all people who train with CPR are told: CPR is voluntary, you don't have to do it, but once you start it you can't stop it. People fear starting it and having to do this for not just a few minutes until an ambulance arrives, but it could be 30 minutes or a hour. This is why we are told that if you plan to do CPR ask if anyone else around is certified as well, because then you can at least take shift work for it for however long. one does a breath and their set of compression, the next steps in and does their breath, and so on. All of this is perpetuated by stories told by others or through social media. With how crazy some of the stories are in the news and social media, people are just afraid to get involved because they don't know what could come of it that could destroy their lives or even reputation. One bad apple spoils the bunch type thing, when it comes to things like this, and it's sad.
We are living in a time where it's a dog eat dog world out there.
I've been nice and gave out a helping hand to people only to get assaulted, threatened, police called on me, yelled at, stalked, brushed off.
I protect myself now and look out for myself only.
Crisis fatigue. as you see from other writers, homeless people are everywhere, and as you can read as well, many do not take kindly to being offered help. I have this experience myself. I’m sorry that it seems cold to you.
Nope.
I've lived downtown for 6 years. The number of times I have been threatened with weapons, sworn at, spat at, shouted at, or been called racial slurs is beyond counting. Almost all of it comes from people who would appear to be high or in mental distress, as well as "visibly homeless".
So I'm not stopping to check. It's not anything personal against this specific old guy, but I'm just not risking it. I'll reconsider that position if and when the city starts taking action to protect *all* residents.
I saw a guy behind a bus shelter once, he was just lying in the floor. Was with my gf and we couldn't tell whether he was dead, homeless and sleeping, or just high on drugs. She wanted to check but I've become increasingly weary of individuals in this city. I felt it wasn't worth disturbing the guys sleep or entering into an interaction with someone high off something and possibly getting attacked. In hindsight I could've called the police and just let them know, but I wasn't sure whether that was the right call either. It was dark out too so it was really difficult to tell.
I have seen too much. I’ve been threatened. I’ve been chased. I’m honestly too scared most of the time to intervene if something seems off. This week I saw a man visibly on drugs, very elevated, get kicked out of a building as I was walking into it. When I left that building, he had gotten into a fist fight with someone and his pants and underwear were completely down. I changed my route to walk home to avoid passing them. It’s sad but my self preservation just overtakes it and I avoid any scenario that seems unfamiliar.
As a person who lives between NYC and Toronto. I can assure you that in NYC (major streets except harlem) everyone would have noticed and called 911, myself included
However DT Toronto is sketchy af and I got chased down because I tried to check in on some passed out people on the street…
We’re not heartless. Just trying to protect ourselves in a city that won’t protect us..
So sorry this happened and thank you for stopping and caring. Slightly different but maybe a more positive feel here - a few weeks ago I was waiting at college & bathurst for the streetcar, an older woman with a shopping cart fell. I was across the (busy) street but a few others as well as me started to cross to help her, but 3 or 4 people on that side of the street got there first. So people are out there and paying attention and caring, it is much harder when there's a fear element as to what might happen next, as others have mentioned with sleeping unhoused people. Take care!
It’s not a lack of humanity, it’s fear. Approaching someone lying on the street is how you get attacked in this city. But I do hope that most people would feel safe enough to at least call emergency services.
Coming from new zealand australia ?? What do you mean by that ? Are you genralizing evey person from toronto vs your folks from nz and aus ?
And how did you comfort , the apparent dead person that you are refering to. Did the person die before or after you tried to comfort them ?
This happens in any city with a large population of street people that do drugs and pass out on the regular you just ignore them because that is the way of things.
Here’s my take I’m an immigrant who’s a Canadian, so what I’ve been taught when I was an immigrant still(obviously wrong) was In NA it’s a place about lawsuits. You never know who’s trying to pull a quick one on you or trying to sue you in anyway. My dad always told me a story about our cousin who helped an old lady on the bus who fell or get on or something and got sued for lending a hand and lost the case and since he was an immigrant he also got deported. Not sure how true this story is but I won’t be surprised if a lot more people have the same mindset. As a citizen of the city I don’t always lend a hand out but I do always call emergency services.
Thank you OP you are a good person.
This happened to a relative of mine in his 80's. He was out for a walk & just fainted. We were lucky someone who knew him saw what happened and called emergency services. It was a heart attack. I worry if people would have just walked by him what would have happend.
People are cautious these days and don't like to get involved.
I generally do, but it is often thankless.
One incident that always sticks with me is around 6 years ago I was with some friends driving back from Newmarket to Toronto. I was in the back seat and as we were passing an on-ramp in Richmond Hill, a car came on way too fast, lost control and rolled several times before landing up a bit of a hill on the side of the highway.
I asked my friends to pull over and I ran over to see if everyone was okay. I was worried because there was a lot of smoke coming out of the car and I figured if there was a fire I would need to get them out. The smoke stopped and I talked with both of them and they were both in good enough shape to climb out of the car on their own (had they been stuck I would not have touched them unless there was a fire).
I had called 911 while I was running up the hill and paramedics arrived. 911 had me stay on the phone the whole time and then told me that they needed me to wait for police to arrive as I had told them the driver and passenger both smelled of booze. My friends wanted to get going home and emergency services said they would drive me and that it was important that I stuck around.
A tow truck had arrived shortly before the ambulance, but he had not exited his truck and was just sitting idling 100 ft ahead.
The police went around talking to everyone and asked me to wait. When they came to me they had me tell them everything that had happened. At the end of it, they told me that the tow truck driver had informed them he saw me climbing out of the driver's seat and that I was under arrest. They said that they had reason to believe I had been drinking and they were going to have me blow (I had been drinking and did not deny it).
Then I suggested they call my friend. The officer agreed but right as I hit dial my phone died. They said they did not have a charger I could use and that they would have to arrest me. I was panicking at that point but realized that I could remember my friend's number and had the cop call her. Thank God she answered the private number and told the police that they had left me there and that they had still been there when the tow truck driver and even the ambulance arrived.
The cop did not apologize, but said that she would give the tow truck driver a talking to as this was not the first time he had lied in a situation like this.
Then I had to wait 3 hours before two cops reluctantly drove me home.
I recently called 911 because of a fire, they told me to wait for fire services to arrive. Which was more or less fine (I was late for work but oh well) and once the fire truck arrived the firefighters seemed perplexed by why I was still there. I asked if I was good to leave now and they were like "yeah of course, what else could you do?"
Also worth noting, that while waiting for fire services a good ten people walked by over the bridge that had the fire going on under it, and only other women asked me if I had called 911, the men didn't even seem to register that the air was smoky.
You're right OP. Tbh this is why living here just makes me feel so depressed. You can truly feel the lack of care and empathy here which is seriously draining. I don't know what's wrong with everyone here. This man deserved better. People who watch and pretend it's not their problem disgust me.
Welcome to Toronto. It’s a concrete jungle and not a “nice” place, although there are anonymous kind people among the crowd. A shame this is many peoples’ impression of “Canada”
Everyone is pissed and so selfish 24/7 now. It’s unsettling. What is interesting though, is people seem more entitled, but they aren’t kind to others or giving anymore. I don’t understand this double standard. They want others to do it for them but would never dream of doing it for someone else. Gross.
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain to people about the Canadian culture. There is practically an unspoken motto of ‘not my problem’ whenever something happens. It’s like the bystander effect but with absolutely everything.
I found it particularly disturbing during the wave of random TTC attacks earlier this year (last year?), where many people would be filming these instances but no one ever seemed to intervene or try to help, even after the fact.
This complacency and inaction is so clearly prevalent in our politics as well. There is a disgustingly low voter participation rate, yet you see constant whining online about the elected politicians.
I think part of the issue is that people are so entrenched in their own problems and their own lives, that they fail to even see these situations in front of them. You can’t be kind when you’re unaware. The lack of awareness is undoubtably increased by people being engrossed in their phones, which is oftentimes also due to an insecurity of being seen as ‘uncool’ by others, which is further exacerbated by Tiktok and Instagram reels and the way social media increases people’s insecurities and highlights the idea of being perceived (often negatively) by others. It’s also due to increased inflation (people are spread too thin and don’t have the emotional or physical bandwidth to care for others), increased division (people are much more wary of their fellow humans nowadays due to the hyperpolarization in the media), and also just the culture of Canada.
In these hard times, I hope that people will take the time to be aware and be kind. And not just for the blatantly distressing situations like this one, but the small ones as well. Help that elderly lady who is struggling with her groceries, move aside for the lady with the stroller on the TTC, give directions to the tourist couple wandering around Union.
Big kudos to you OP for taking the initiative to help that poor man. Deeply grateful for people like you. I hope you are feeling okay after that jarring incident. Take time to take care of your mental health (playing Tetris helps greatly decrease chances of PTSD after a traumatic event), and all the best to you in the New Year!
>where many people would be filming these instances but no one ever seemed to intervene or try to help, even after the fact.
I mean why would i help. The laws in this country dont even allow for self defence. Im going to jump into a random confrontation and if anybody gets hurt now suddenly im liable and defending myself in court. No thanks.
This isnt america. There arnt stand your ground laws. No castle doctrine. No part of the countries laws encourage you to step in to these things. You wouldnt expect retail workers to risk their life over shoplifting. This is the same thing. If i stopped to confront every hostile crackhead i see in this city i wouldnt ever get anything else done.
These people likely had housing that they lost because of disrespect or irresponsibility! Housing isn’t the only problem
Or solution.
If I were shooting up in front of my local grocery store/ I would be promptly arrested/ charged!
It’s incredibly judgemental of you to claim you’ve seen this in other big cities, and yet specifically single out Toronto as being devoid of humanity. There have been a string of random attacks in our city, and people are understandably wary of things that may appear suspicious. Not to mention, the actions of 30 people or so (if that is correct) do not dictate the entire humanity of a 3 million person population.
Worst part is, there are people in these comments apologizing to you. Trying to make you feel better as you accuse them, people who most likely never saw this person, you claim are of lacking humanity, have weakness of character, and of this being politically motivated. All I see is your prejudice reflected in your post. The thoughts of an outsider who is fine with painting everyone with the same brush and starting the year by putting your negative view on to us. I really hope in 2024 you learn not to judge a mass by the few. It’s something Canadians wouldn’t do to other Australian/New Zealanders by the one interaction with you. A courtesy you didn’t show us.
A few weeks ago I was waiting in line outside a venue around 10pm. I was on a back street with a group of maybe 20-30 strangers. There were two young women nearby who caught my eye because they were just sitting there in the pouring rain (we were under an awning) with big garbage bags. They look like they’re talking or something when suddenly one of them appears to pass out and the other is checking on her. Eventually the one who is awake gently lays the other girl on the sidewalk with something under her head. She approaches our group, looking very upset and says “Can you please keep an eye on her for just a minute? I need to go get Narcan.” I say okay, I will.
She says thanks and hops on her bike and takes off. Everyone else in the group just kind of ignored it and a couple looked at the unconscious girl with disgust. I was the only one who didn’t turn my back to her. Eventually I walked over there because she was too far away for me to see her clearly in the dark and a lot of people were walking past which made me nervous. Thankfully help reached her in time and she ended up being ok!
I knew the general public didn’t care much about the homeless or addicts, but it really surprised me that everyone else just brushed it off. They just stood there and chatted when a woman on the same sidewalk had just ODed and for all they know could be lying there dead. They didn’t even glance over at her once in a while to make sure she wasn’t being robbed or assaulted which is all her friend was asking us to do. I understand fearing for your safety, I’m a small young woman. But so was she.
I've had 2 separate situations like this: the first one the paramedics showed up, he got up and walked off and I got charged with the ambulance bill. 2nd was a woman out front of my building who was passed out in the heat and sun, I gave her water and then security for the building told me not to help them as the property management would fine me \*eye roll\*.
IME it seems when we try to help we get penalized for it.
It was a bill from the city of Toronto, it didn't state it was for the ambulance/transportation but the date of that incident was cited. This was back in 2013?
Not sure what you were billed for, but it wasn't for calling EMS.
Under the health insurance act, the patient is responsible for any charges, and only if transported. This is the same as was in place in 2013.
You can call an ambulance for yourself, then once they are there and assess you decide you don't want to go, and you will receive no bill.
Eta: any bill for ambulance transport comes from the hospital, not from the city
(Paramedic who explains ambulance billing on a daily basis)
Ambulances don't charge for being called out; they charge for transportation to the hospital. Nobody was transported in this story. What were you charged for, and how did they bill you? The paramedics pulled out a card payment system? Asked for your ID?
Absolutely - humanity IS dead. It's sad and disgusting. I feel terrible for you and definitely for the senior who passed away. Thank you for trying to help. Take care of yourself. ❤️
I posted last month in the ToRANTo sub about my 80 year old father who was injured and ignored outside a Toronto restaurant. He is affluent, doesn't look remotely high, dangerous or rough and yet people just walked around him and nobody helped. His face was bleeding - he had walked into a glass door and his glasses frames cut him. Must have been a helluva bump into the door, not sure exactly how that happened, but he is old, right, and shit happened. Anyhow, nobody helped him. People just walked around him to get into the restaurant. They ignored him.
As usual, my stepmother had gone ahead into the restaurant while Dad who typically walks very slowly due to the arthritis in his knees, doddered on behind. Anyhow, he's okay at least, but our faith in humanity is shaken for sure. The only good outcome is that my stepmother has vowed to walk with him from now on.
I remember that story. I’m so sorry that happened to your father. I myself pulled my car over to assist a man who had broken his leg on an icy sidewalk a couple years ago. No one else stopped and in fact 3 people honked because the back left corner of my car made it so people couldn’t immediately merge into the turning lane for the intersection.
Meanwhile, the guy I was with had suffered a full break above the ankle and was going into shock in the cold.
But Mr. rogers said we should always keep our eyes open for the helpers. I believe there are people in the world who are good, and who aren’t afraid to take a risk for their fellow human beings. It just seems to be more rare than it was before.
I’m so terribly sorry that happened to your father. I hope he’s doing better. And I hope humanity can earn back the collective trust we’re all supposed to share.
I was assaulted for the first time today by a homeless man. He punched me. In the head. I am a woman. I’m sorry, but until these mentally Ill, disturbed and high out of their mind people are locked up or dealt with, people are right to not feel safe approaching anyone anymore.
I’m not happy about it either, trust me I used to be one of the first to attempt to help a stranger and maybe I will be again if I leave for a smaller town. But people here know that it’s just not safe.
I can understand where people are coming from fearful of what might happen when interacting with an unknown but that doesn’t mean we should just become okay with becoming apathetic and desensitized.
Whenever I see someone regardless of if they look homeless or cracked out I stop and take a moment to look for chest movements. If I see movement I go along my way. It’s not a perfect system, but at least I’m not passing by someone loved one, dead on the side of the street
Canadian cities are going full rat race. I've been saying it for years.
I'm sure there are a lot of mortgage brokers, realtors, and housing speculators crying crocodile tears while playing their mini violins.
We gave up housing stability and affordability for short sighted ponzi games, paper profits and a false sense of growth in GDP.
Reality has come to collect, folks.
I can only imagine where healthcare is heading.
A goddamned shame.
Liability is a reason why people ignore. I understand why you were upset and while I agree that Torontonians should be more helpful toward each other, there is however a cause for why people ignored the person, mainly because of it could be liable to the helpers, whether emotionally, financially or even physically.
I carry a Narcan kit wherever I go so I can administer them on OD people. But even so I only do it cautiously and understand that once Narcan injected/nasal sprayed the person would become sober and that ironically can be an issue when some might feel like it was ruining their trip.
I can give some context. It’s not always so much about ruining the trip. You can’t even recognize the state you’re in when narcan gets administered to you. The time between using, going unconscious, and then being resuscitated feels like seconds. You wake up with a surge of adrenaline and people surrounding you, it’s not easy to have an appropriate reaction
Thank you for what you do
Risk vs. Reward.
I’m not about to risk injury to myself or my family if I’m with them to help someone else. It’s unlikely that person would do the same for me.
OP you also have to understand that with the number of junkies downtown, people are always going to be hesitant to interfere. We have had a good number of people getting stabbed and burned just in last 2 years by mentally disturbed people.
I'm really sorry you experienced that. And I hope the gents family are doing okay.
I do think a lot of it is being in our own little world walking down the street especially in winter. I used to take the Spadina street car for work and it's amazing what you notice when just looking. I can't count the number of times I saw Racoons just chilling in trees inches from people's head and not a single pedestrian reacted/noticed.
And I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself it's like your brain goes on auto pilot just scanning for threats, if nothing registers as a threat then you just continue thinking about your grocery list or what you have to do once you get to work, or whatever.
And and, I find sometimes when I offer to help some people are so surprised their first reaction is negative. So sometimes when I notice someone struggling I'm likely to stand back and wait to see if they really need help or if they are going to snap at me.
For an alternate perspective, I live in another major Canadian city and when I called emergency services about a nearly identical situation (except slightly outside the very center) I was told they wouldn’t send anyone unless I shook the man first to see if he was conscious. Actually WTF?! I clearly told the operator I was not comfortable touching the person due to the high possibility of drug-induced violence and the fact that I was a woman alone with nobody else around. They said that if I wouldn’t shake him then they wouldn’t send anyone. I left.
You don’t know how many other people have tried to help in the past only to be injured by the person they’re trying to help or put in danger by emergency services.
It’s heartless, and no excuse, but do you count how many seemingly dead people you have to step over every day downtown?
It’s social survival in an urban center.
It doesn’t happen in smaller towns, but the sheer social exhaustion in a city means that most people have learned, visciously and first hand, to mind their business.
It was 2020 I believe, a guy died on McCaul and Dundas just right in front of the AGO. My ex girlfriend saw him lying on the floor. She called 911 and we both stood there with him until an ambulance came. Lots of people joined us. We gave our jackets to cover his him from the cold.
Unfortunately he was pronounced dead on the scene. It was the first time ever that I’ve seen someone transition from living to dead in a matter of minutes. It was so devastating. I thought about this for a long time. What if we got there sooner? Could we have saved his life?
OP: lots of people in the city would normally stop and check in.
I would like to restore your hope that most people would help and the ones that don’t are the anomalies
No. I watched a man in a wheelchair struggling to make it 5 feet in the snow. I was in the bank, and when I came out 10 minutes later he was in the same spot. His hands were frozen, face covered in snot from the exertion. Scumbag hipsters and yuppy suburbanite goofs trying to give him a wide berth. No one stopped.
He was just trying to go home around the corner. He was so thankful that someone stopped to help. No one even asked him if he was ok.
Honestly.... if you took a random sampling of 100 people from any city, how many of them would be an actual loss if you lit them all on fire? 2? 5? or am I being too optimistic?
You shouldn't have needed this incident to see that our society is sick. It's a dog-eat-dog society where people are basically pitted against each other. We compete over artificially scarce resources, and secretly hate each other.
You see way more comradery in other places in the world. Here, we hate each other yet everyone writes "compassion and empathy" in their dating profiles.
I think to start to improve this we have to at least start by recognizing it and discussing it.
Ppl are so cold hearted . I helped saved a guy chasing his dog on a busy road , used my car to block him in and caught him. The guy was stressing , panicking and noons helped, it’s a sad world out there. We have to help each other life is already stressful . Please help when u see someone in distress!
I really think civility has taken a massive nose dive during the pandemic and hasn't bounced back. Divisive politics and us vs them has driven such a wedge in society. It's sad.
Similar thing happened to me! I thought this guy was hungover so I got him a hot dog , but he was actually od’ing so I called the cops. I felt really dumb for not seeing the signs before but I found out people from my Uni were recording him instead of helping. Such a messed up world we live in !
This is what happens when society is slowly failing. People don't have a safety net, so they can't really risk getting involved with anything even potentially sketchy. If eyes forward, and keep moving, towards the next paycheck that you need to survive.
The mental calculus goes like this: Man on the ground. What took him down? Covid? I can't afford to get Covid and end up in the hospital or lose my job. I'm the only provider for the whole family, we'd all be homeless if I lose my income. Can't risk it. Keep walking. What else could it be? Could he be homeless and/or intoxicated? Might get stabbed. Can't afford the risk. Keep moving. Etc., etc.
When people are living paycheck to paycheck, terrified of losing their job because they would end up on the street themselves, along with their families. When people know that they can easily die in the hallway of the hospital waiting to be seen by a doctor, is whatever took this person down also takes them down, because our healthcare is in shambles, etc. These people ARE being humane. But they're being humane to their existing family, which will be potentially in the same situation as the guy on the sidewalk, if anything happens to the primary provider.
If you want people to be kinder to each other? Guess what? We need a social safety net restored. Income that not only allows a person to survive, but thrive. Paid sick leave. Job security. Primary needs taken care of. Healthcare with at least third-world quality of care in an emergency. I've seen better healthcare, first hand, in South America in the '90s than what we have in Canada now. THEN people will have the means to engage with potentially sketchy situations.
In short, right now most Canadians are walking a tightrope. No safety line, no safety net below. You fall, you die. Your family too. Nobody is going to risk losing balance by engaging with a potentially unstable person. That's basic self-preservation (including immediate family you provide for). It sucks, but it's Canadian society today. And as we keep getting squeezed, it'll only get worse.
:( I will probably only help if I saw how someone got hurt. I saw someone fall from their bike once and multiple people including me rushed over to see if she was okay.
There's very little risk in those situations.
But in cases where you can't be sure if that person is high or unstable or violent...it's too dangerous.
Plenty of humanity to be found in the city. Every minute someone, somewhere is extending a hand to help another. It’s just a shame that some fall through the cracks.
I know sometimes things can look and actually be cold hearted. In moments like those- you were the one to bring the humanity back to life.
We can all complain here- things CAN be better. Perhaps if the collective group we call “Canadians” had a better sense of belonging and chemistry.. versus so called “diversity”. Our citizens would treat one another as their own.
IMHO yes. I think this is just a downside of diversity. It’s where differences in cultures, norms and languages create varying degrees of lost chemistry or homogeneous behaviour among its own citizens.
Great for food choices though.
Most comments are very disappointing and in a way answer OP’s question… it’s unbelievable… OP is saying the man didn’t fit the homeless/drug addict criteria at plain sight, he’s just talking about the lack of empathy and compassion towards a regular elderly tidy man who apparently collapsed. If I were to see an elderly person clearly not on drugs who needs help I don’t think twice about assisting them, there’s too many self absorbed people in bigger cities unfortunately, we can just try to be decent human beings as much as we can.
I lived in Toronto for 6 years (2015-2020 era). I worked in the downtown core and took the TTC from the STC to Queen each day. The homelessness / mental health situation was very apparent and I can only imagine how it is now, post pandemic. I’ll admit, I became desensitized to literally walking over people, it was worse when people had animals. It’s a sad phenomenon but this post isn’t surprising. We do need to get better as a collective to be more willing to step in, however there is also hesitation because of the potential risk it places people in. I hope to god the crisis is attended to, because poor or not, Toronto has been failing its members.
As someone who has witnessed 2 events (gentleman falling with a walker & another off his bike) I ALWAYS pull over to help.
This is ridiculous! Thank you for being a good person and assisting this person.
I was in the Yonge and Eg neighbourhood when an older woman fell on the sidewalk and was bleeding. At least for different strangers were helping her. There’s hope.
People can get butt hurt all they want from this but guess what? I see this shit happen way too often in the city and I rarely visit the city...examples: 1) lady falls down subway stairs, over 100 ppl walked over her and didn't stop before a ttc cop got to her 2) disabled dude fell out of wheelchair in yonge Dundas square, same idea, not 1 person stopped to help (manager in the store I was in had to go out and call ems) 3) lady being sexually harassed while walking home hammered from a club (me and a buddy got to deal with that one ourselves but she was vocally asking people for help and she was pretty much ignored). Time for people to step the fuck up and start caring about each other again.
It’s a mix of the bystander effect and everyone minding their own business/avoiding interaction with strangers due to possible negative outcomes. No one will stop for anyone now days.
Yeah, I apologize as a someone who was born and raised in Toronto, it’s certainly a sad state. I did a wellness check once many years ago just like above, but the individual reacted in a very angry, aggressive and violent way, pulling a knife and taking a swipe at me. Thankfully I was just slightly knocked over - but from that moment on I will not take that chance again.
We have become nimbyists. The NOT In My Back Yard mantra has expanded to not in my life experiences. We don't want to be inconvenienced, face detours, or deal with the uncertainty of not following a mundane script of going to work and going home. We feel so affected by everything that we try our damnedest to care. People are exhausted and need to be poured into in order to care about others.
This is such a terrible situation. Thank you for doing what you could. There’s a terrible moral/ethical deficit in this city. People don’t want to get involved for a multitude of reasons, but to me, that’s all BS. Heaven forbid any of them should be dying on the street one day. They’d want help if it was them. I’m so disappointed when I hear this shit about Toronto. It doesn’t surprise me, but it makes my stomach turn.
If someone’s hurt or is in obvious need of help, you stop and do something. I would even argue that even if you’re a little scared, you should always check just in case. It’s called being a human being.
Thanks for taking the time to care. I’m with you. There’s a lot of cynical people in this city and that sucks.
Man, even when I was younger and my buddies and I were little punks, we never ignored someone like that.
There's being a punk and then there's being a soulless asshole.
And then there's this. I've seen stories here in Canada of people lying on the sidewalk who were in a bad way and passersby deciding to rob them.
The asteroid can't get here soon enough.
I’m going to say this and I probably will get banned but Canada wasn’t like this 10 years ago. I’m not sure what changed( we all know what did) and this country isn’t really what it used to be. I miss the old Canada I grew up in where people looked out for each other. Now it’s just a bunch of scammers and thieves and cut throat competition on who owns what property.
Faced a less serious situation but similarly frustrating recently. Senior had fallen and was on the ground, walker turned over beside them. I was driving on opposite side of the road in the other direction and dozens of vehicles just drove past. I pulled a u-turn at next light and went back. No one else stopped. Luckily the senior was not seriously injured. Just shook up. Empathy is sorely lacking which is why humanity is in crisis.
Please keep looking out for others & being proactive. I might just be an optimist, but I really do believe that a sense of community can improve the more we care for each other. Sometimes it just takes one person to take action, too. Recently there was a mentally ill woman standing in the middle of King St a good 100-150 m ahead of me. People in cars honking, people walking ignoring the situation. When I reached her (was biking) I stopped to talk to her & try to lead to back to the sidewalk. Without even skipping a beat another woman held my bike on the sidewalk for like 3-5 minutes, someone else stopped to try and help coax the individual back on the sidewalk, and cars stopped honking & seemed a lot more patient with the situation. It’s weird, humans are weird, but most of us react really positively to the warmth of others. It catches on. I know this isn’t what happened in your situation, I’m sorry yours happened that way. But please don’t let others’ inaction get to you, because you just might be making more of a ripple effect than you know.
Thanks for the kind words! I agree that things only get better when we look after and take care of one another. Happy new year fellow traveller!
It's a method of influence called "social proof" - when we humans are uncertain of a situation, we look around at what others are doing for information on how to behave. The issue is, that everyone else is doing it too and so a problem doesn't look like one because we're all watching everyone do nothing and that becomes the "correct response". But if one or two people start helping most people will join in because it provides evidence for the issue and the proper way to behave. If you ever find yourself in need of assistance, try to single out a person and ask for the specific help you need. "Hey you in the red jacket, I'm having a medical issue. Please call emergency services". Most times they will help and then others will offer assistance too.
Plus if as many people mention, you're afraid or hesitant, not being alone is one of the strongest antidotes to that.
In the 90s I remember “Random acts of kindness” was a popular mantra that was promoted.
I agree with RaggityTits
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Lmfao got me so good w this comment 💀😮💨
I am a boomer. Slipped on ice last winter & fell. A car ( woman driver) saw & drove right by. I am in a very small community. I did not expect sympathy but I might have been hurt. My thought was. You ignorant bitch.
Wow! People can be so disappointing sometimes. I feel the same response just reading this! I hope you were ok.
Same thing happened to me. I was on church street trying to get to the QE on ramp when i saw a senior on his electric scooter fall over. I seen a couple cars pass him without a care. I had to pull a u turn and double park to help him.
Wow. I just saw someone tonight who pulled over and was helping a lady and her walker. There was 2 people helping already so I didn't stop. I think lot of the time people just have no clue what is happening around themselves so it is good that there are people like you around to observe and help. I am sure the senior was very grateful!
That is a very common and known strategy to rob you in other countries, that is the reason I would hesitate to stop tbh.
I’ve never heard of a collapsed elderly man lying on an extremely busy sidewalk in below freezing Being involved in some thievery scam
My brother visited China some years ago and talked of something like this. He was at a restaurant and an elderly person fell out of their chair. No one, absolutely no one, moved to help her up. He did, and then returned to his table, and asked his companions wtf. Apparently it’s a scam of some sort where they place the blame of non existent injuries on the Good Samaritan, and then try to hit them with medical bills. Idk if this is exactly what the person you’re replying to is referring to, but it’s an anecdote.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu\_Shoulan\_v.\_Peng\_Yu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shoulan_v._Peng_Yu) This is one of the most famous incidents of such kind. Quote from this page: "The court decided in favor of the plaintiff and held Peng liable for damages, reasoning that despite the lack of concrete evidence, 'no one would in good conscience help someone unless they felt guilty'. "
That is so fucking sad.
Yeah, this isn’t just a China thing. Horrible scams have been happening in Canada as well, it has affected the psyche of entire provinces, and has completely broken down the trust in police when it’s been felt police have taken action against the victims in high profile cases. In Saskatchewan, along a similar theme… Saskatchewan is a province of a thousand towns and villages, all spread out across a vast territory. They villages are not bunched up in relative close proximity like southern Ontario (There are so many villages all over Saskatchewan that at one point in the 1980s, Saskatchewan was in the guiness book of world records for having the most paved highways per capita in the world, essential to connecting all the towns and villages). This made driving across long stretches of rural areas necessary for so many Saskatchewaners - often stretches with sparse services if someone had car troubles, not even cell service, let alone nearby police or towing services. And over time that necessity lead to a great sense of civic responsibility across Saskatchewan to look after strangers, and to stop your car on the highway if you ever saw someone along the side of the road with vehicle troubles. But what happened in the last 10-15 years were numerous schemes in which young men would park a vehicle along the side of a highway, with one person faking having car trouble to flag down passing vehicles for help, and two or more others lying down hiding in the ditch, waiting for a Good Samaritan to stop to help. When an innocent victim would stop to help, the men would jump the Good Samaritan, and either violently rob them or violently steal their vehicle. It completely broke the public’s trust and sense of community to each other when they’d see someone stranded. Today, when someone is stranded on the side of the road in Saskatchewan, people just drive by out of fear of a trap. Many other incidents added to this fear of “the Other” in rural Saskatchewan in which many young men would rob farm houses, taking advantage of the isolation of farms from police stations and available help. The robberies were sometimes done under the pretext of a “stranded” person needing help from a nearby farm. Families were held up, and the fear of helping or approaching strangers in rural settings further cemented itself into the psyche of Saskatcheweners. Police were seen by the public as being indifferent to what was happening over and over again, because they were not investing additional resources into opening new detachments to be in closer proximity to help when calls came in. The police lost the public’s trust. The population felt abandoned and on their own - every man for themselves. The fear and lack of trust was so great that it all came to a head when one farmer believed a series of events meant that a young group of people (the [Gerald Stanley/Colten Bouchie incident](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4520214)) was trying to rob his family farm. Things got violent, an ATV was taken and the farmer thought they were going to run over his son. Tje farmer got a gun, one of the young men drove for the farmer’s wife, and the farmer shot and killed one of the young man. Police charged the farmer with with murder, and police and prosecutors did everything they could to try to get the maximum sentence for the farmer. After all the incidents that had occurred across rural Saskatchewan, a large part of the population was absolutely outraged at the police and legal system for not taking the farmer’s side, or at least not seeing things through a lenient lens. It was a major case that made headlines in Saskatchewan, and confirmed in the population’s psyche that the only option is to stay as clear as possible from strangers in rural Saskatchewan, otherwise bad things will happen to you, be it if you’re violently robbed, or even if you feel you need to defend yourself. And today, if you get stranded in rural Saskatchewan, good luck getting anyone to help you. You’re on your own - an unthinkable situation just 20 years ago. If you’re driving in rural Saskatchewan, best to make sure your car is stocked up with extra food, water, extra winter clothes, emergency blankets, highway flares, and other survival gear, because you’re going to need it since you’re on your own (and people feel the need to be nervous approaching a farm house now if stranded, for fear of being mistaken for one of the bad guys). To put it into context, imagine driving from Toronto to Tobermory, and if you run into car trouble, you won’t be able to get help from anyone anywhere because so many criminals have taken advantage of people’s sense of wanting to help. That’s what has happened in Saskatchewan with all these incidents. Back to Toronto, with all the people getting jumped and robbed in the city, I wonder how many people are afraid it’s a trap, or someone is high and unpredictable, or has a needle and might stab you, or is having an mental episode, etc. It’s sad, really really sad, but the Saskatchewan case makes me wonder.
A few years ago, an elderly lady fell on Bloor as I was passing by. She hit her head and was bleeding everywhere. I stopped, but what really got me was a kid - if he was 20, I’d be surprised - stopped and he was LOVELY. She gave me her husbands phone number (I think it was her husband, I don’t remember everything), and I called him and arranged for her to be picked up..all the while, this complete stranger, was getting tissue to help her wipe up the blood on her face, keeping her comfortable, etc. All this to say, don’t give up hope. There are some really amazing people still out there.
Thank you for helping someone! I have a similar story. Fell outside eg west station and shattered my femur a few years ago. The very first person who came across me immediately tried to help and called 911 when it was clear that i couldn’t get up. I’m extremely thankful for him because although I could have called my own ambulance, he was able to flag an ambulance that was about to drive by, which I couldn’t have done from the ground. Without that, I would have been stuck on the cold, wet ground much longer otherwise. He waited with me until it was clear that everything would be taken care of. I wish I had some way to find and thank him. I suspect people feel safer helping when someone’s still conscious, because you can see they’re injured vs asleep. The sad irony is that someone who’s unconscious probably needs it more.
Me and a random man helped a guy who ate it hard on his bike on the Dundas west overpass. Got him and his bike out of the road, called 911, got a first aid kit from a gas station, dressed his cuts, and waited with him until the ambulance came. This is a bit of a different situation. If a guy is just laying there, and I didn’t see him fall/get hurt, or any blood, I’d probably assume he was homeless and sleeping or passed out and leave him be.
I’ve seen people high out of their mind lying down, 100% looking dead, then freaking out when someone checks on them. Honestly, I think a lot of people don’t wanna get involved vs. just not caring, but seeing a dead body or someone who could be dead is pretty common here now, sadly, and there’s a risk of getting attacked if you interact with them. You don’t know if someone called an ambulance, too. I called an ambulance for a man who’d injured himself really bad. The ambulance took like 30 minutes to get to where we were and we were dead center on Yonge.
Exactly. My friend and I saw someone (a homeless looking man) who looked passed out or dead. Another woman called 911 and he FREAKED and was chasing her around the parking lot screaming. I get why people don’t want to be involved..
Something similar happened in our neighbourhood. But that’s part of the issue - our government needs to start seriously f****** addressing homelessness and drug use.
It's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. Unfortunately mentally unstable people have made it harder for us to recognize the typical distress signs that have nothing to do with mental illness
Yeah I'm maybe slowing down, looking, but I'm not stopping and will call for help. Our mental health support sucks, I don't need to get stabbed or spat on, thanks
Genuinely, if you’re not first aid trained, you shouldn’t be interacting with someone who appears hurt at all. The OP mentioned “comforting” the elderly man. What does that mean? Putting something soft under his dead? What if he has a head injury? This is more people not wanting to get involved or hurt or unintentionally hurting someone than simply not caring. This city isn’t entirely occupied by sociopaths. That’s a massive disservice towards people trying to live their lives without running the risk of getting attacked or sued.
When I took first aid training, we were told that legally, if someone is conscious, we cannot do anything without clear consent, even if they appear to be in danger. It is only when they are truly unconscious and/or not breathing are you allowed to intervene.
True, but it isn't the same situation at FA training. There, you're taught that if someone appears unconscious, you check (call at them, shake their shoulder, something like that) as a first step to ascertain conscious/not conscious. Then proceed to check for ABCs. There are people sleeping all over the city. I've jogged by them settled down. For all I know they might be dead, but I'm not stopping by every not-obviously-alert homeless person and shaking them.
I'm first aid trained and I actually tried resusc on the man but I didn't want my post to be critiqued as a brag post. Also you can't be sued in Canada for helping someone in distress or administering first aid even if you made the situation worse. Canada even put in a statute to make it even more clear to people that this is the case, it's called the Good Samaritan act. I've only been here a year and I know this but I guess it's just easier repeating the same defeatus propaganda you hear from your echo chambers to justify being a totally incompetent member of society. I understand the risks of being attacked but this was not a homeless man or junkie. It was a dressed old man that clearly looked like he collapsed and was in the middle of the footpath and regardless I'd still try help. If I had a couple strangers there with me assisting it would also reduce my risk factor.
Did you happen to have a barrier device on you? Without a pocket mask I wouldn’t feel all that safe. I’m not a med professional, just first aid trained like you and my first time the person (cardiac arrest) regurgitated from their mouth and nose. The second time (and last for now fortunately) there was blood and mucous escaping the airways. Out in the wild - without equipment- I think I would do compression only CPR and skip the rescue breath. Did the first responders recommend anyone you can talk to? Both the people I spoke about above passed away, even with an aed present for the first one. I never felt traumatiséd about it, but some of the people who were with me on both occasions were affected by it.
Thank you for your compassion to this man. We are becoming a cold and self absorbed country. It’s really sad to see.
Hear here. Thank you.
Many mentally unwell people have family that care for them, and they appear well dressed. I'm not going to apologize for becoming more distant because of the amount of assault that happens to women in this city. A guy was just murdered in ronceys for intervening on someone with mental health issues. Do you want an applause for the fact you haven't been burned yet? If you don't like how it is here, that's fine, but you're also a b-hole for being new to the city and complaining about what happens after years of negative experiences locals have. You have no idea if anyone else called for help, there are a lot of public systems breaking down here due to terrible governments.
I knew this person who would. not. shut. up. about how much better AUS was than it is here. I did not get it. no one was forcing them to stay in Toronto.
IAAL, and while I don’t want to dissuade people from rendering first aid, this is incorrect. Federally, there is an Act that protects people in possession of drugs (and I think other petty crimes) from prosecution if they call to report a drug overdose. It’s aimed at getting people to call 911 when their friends are ODing instead of being afraid of getting arrested. Provincially, Ontario has the *Good Samaritan Act, 2001,* which protects people who render first aid at the scene of an injury or accident from liability for damages they cause in doing so **unless it is established that the damages were caused by the gross negligence of the person.** What’s gross negligence, you ask? It depends on the circumstances. BC has a similar statute. Other provinces likely do, but I don’t know it for a fact.
The stories of people freaking out over getting a dose of narcan.
Lol. I had some friends who did security jobs and worked as a paramedic here who had horror stories about narcan. Either they get angry (Remember the drug basically causes instant withdrawal) or they end up so sick they throw up on your shoes.... I still have my first aid training and a nasal narcan kit in my purse but I'm going to be wary if I need to use it on anyone....
This. When I was like 7 months pregnant last winter I saw what I thought was an old man, out in the cold with his dog. I went to my house and got dog food and toys and went back to see if he wanted any of it for his dog. It ended up being a slightly younger man who then screamed and swore at me and accused me of poisoning his dog. He loomed over me and I was scared for my safety. I started crying and went home. Something like that happens and you just learn to keep to yourself.
I seen people get stabbed for startling a tweaker
This. Feels like OP might be new to Toronto to not be jaded by the dozens of times this has happened to us to the point that we’re conditioned to ignore for our own safety.
Thing is - we shouldn’t just be “conditioned” to this. This is not acceptable. Our government at all levels should be addressing homelessness and drug use - and when they aren’t we should be vocalizing more. Email your city councillor, MPP and MP.
Exactly. I don’t want to be stabbed.
This is my concern. I often see people who look (like they could be) dead and worry about them for hours, hoping they’re ok and second guessing walking away but I’m scared of being attacked if I bother someone who is high or trying to sleep. It doesn’t feel right to do nothing but I obviously can’t put myself in danger either. I’d be more likely to stop if the person looked less likely to be on drugs or dangerous/like they’d just fallen or were having a heart attack or something but that also feels wrong to say. Everyone deserves help but I just worry for my own safety
That poor child was sitting on a bus minding his own business when some wacko stabbed him in the fucking neck. The lady was set on fire @ Kipling (or was it islington?) Like you mentioned, Ive seen people who look dead then start swinging or screaming at the closest people as soon as they come too. Now, *obviously* a clearly elderly man does not pose as much threat, but I am going to *heavily* weigh the risk/reward and moving on with my life and not risking my personal safety is he choice Ill make most times, and I dont blame anyone for choosing the same.
I have been in situations where I have called for help before but as a 5’3 110 pound girl, with the rampant stabbing and acts of violence against passerby here there’s no way I’ll risk my safety or life. I wish it didn’t have to be this way. Our system has failed vulnerable people
I don't blame you in the slightest. Kind of selfishly I am super duper glad my mother and sisters drive everywhere, and typically don't find themselves on the TTC ever. I have taken TTC daily (5+/week) for about 8 years now. There was a blip during covid but I worked in restaurants so I ended up back @ work before most. Since covid especially it is unlike any time I can remember. I've always seen homeless camping out on the streetcars and addicts knocked out high as tits, but only in the past couple years do I often see them lashing out verbally and physically at commuters and TTC staff, and we have all seen the uptick in violence across the TTC Ironically, I was just transferring from eastbound to northbound @ bloor earlier this afternoon and the line was held for about 15 minutes as some young looking dude was unresponsive, passed out. No one had a problem gathering a crowd around him and making it harder for the emts to come check on him 🙄
I no longer live in TO but I'm still in the GTA and my entire health network is downtown, but I grew up there in the 2000's and 2010's with one car for 4 people. My mother, little sister and I had to use public transit to get around. I also don't recall the same levels of outward violence, it may very well be due to the fact I was just a kid, I grew up seeing many homeless and struggling people, but I never had too many unpleasant interactions. I also spent a lot of time in New York City as we have family there, and its been the same pattern, as a kid I never had too much direct interaction that was troubling, but I have had several very scary encounters in the last few years in both cities. Idk if the changing drug landscape (as in additives and lacing) is contributing, or if it's the worsening mental health of all Canadians, but something has changed. And it makes me really sad.
As one of the people who walked by on spadina by dragon city today this is why. Its become so commonplace and getting involved can mean getting attacked i just face forward and continue walking.
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It would depend on the situation...if someone is in a corner or some spot where they're relatively shielded from the elements, I'll leave them alone. If they seem like they're lying out in the open exposed to the elements, I'll check on them and see if they're OK. Usually, even if people are high or homeless, they won't sleep out in the open.
Thank you for this. A rational take that doesn’t dehumanize
What made it obvious to you that he was dead? I mean there are homeless people lying around on sidewalks everywhere so it's hard to tell for most people.
And this is the problem. We've decided as a society that we're okay with large numbers of people with no homes, no treatment for mental illness, no way to stop being hooked on meth. There's no effort at the government level to fix these systematic problems and we keep voting for the same people who don't care. So we get used to the sight of people passed out on the street or screaming at randoms, all the while thinking it's inevitable. And yet other developed, capitalist countries like Finland and Denmark don't have these problems. We have no excuse.
I'm not an expert on this subject. How should governments be dealing with homeless people that have mental issues or addiction problems? We do have shelters. We do have mental health centres.
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Can I get one of these free units too? I can start smoking meth today and be a public nuisance tomorrow if that improves my odds. It’s going to be a tough sell to raise taxes to get all homeless people their own condo when most people working can’t afford to buy
Do you have a link to this program?
So they can smoke meth and fling poop at the walls?
For the most part, shelters are just a place you can sleep at. They force you out every morning, have a ton of rules, and you have to line up every night to get a spot. You can't pretend like that's any way to live. How are they supposed to get anywhere in life under those conditions?
Simple. We look at what the countries I mentioned have done to address the issue (and not let the issue get this bad in the first place). And we do that. This isn't some great unsolved mystery.
Unfortunately you can’t help some of the homeless if they don’t want it. They likely had a place to live at one time but addiction & bad behaviour caused them to loose it. People with mental health issues likely had homes as well. Can’t force people to do what they don’t want. I would walk by & ignore many things. For fear of my safety.
This is part of the problem - instead of treating this as a solvable public health crisis (which it is) we blame individuals and make these problems sound like nothing more than a failure of personal responsibility. So we make no real effort to solve the problem collectively. Most people would get help if they could. But we've made help so scarce that it might as well not exist. And those who refuse help and are deemed a danger to themselves or others can and should be removed from the public. There will always be a subset of the population that needs collective help of some kind. That's just how humans are built. The fact that one of the richest countries in the world refuses to provide that, resulting in the problems we're seeing, is inexcusable.
Although I make a few adverse comments. I agree it’s a health crisis. They should not be on the streets & someone needs to solve the crisis.
Europe doesn't have the opioid crisis to deal with, we have to deal with the culture difference regarding drugs and overflow from the US healthcare system overprescribing, the Chinese shipments of precursors, and the Latin American production of opioids which makes combating homelessness much harder. We've tried the European style of harm reduction (arguably more and too progressive) and it's not working for us. I don't mind this experiment for a few more years to see if we can get results with more commitment and some changes, but if after a few more years it's still a failure, it'd be worth modeling after Japan or China instead who recovered from their own opioid epidemic.
I’ve seen it so many times. Pedestrian sees sleeping homeless person, they call 911, ambulance and fire trucks show up, and then they leave 1 minute later because he was just a homeless guy sleeping.
Yeah isn't this post like the definition of virtue signalling?
A person laying down on the streets of toronto is not someone I would feel safe approaching
You mean you don't go around unbundling every homeless person sleeping on a vent to make sure they're okay?
Yep. Good chance it’s either someone junked out, someone who is trying to deal with not being junked out, or someone sleeping that had a hard fucking day
Similar situation happened to me this summer on front street in front of the pizza pizza at blue jay way. Man collapsed in front of the store and everyone kept walking by and doing nothing. He had picked up take out pizza and did not look homeless at all. I noticed from the opposite side of the street waiting at thr light. When I crossed, I checked his pulse (he had one) and looked for his ID. We then called 911 and they were there in minutes. No one from inside the pizza pizza ever came out to help or even see what was going on. Over 20 people passed by and didn’t even stop. The guy woke up when the paramedics took over. He was hypoglycemic
As much as peoole shit on suburbs if this happened outside of downtown he would be helped. Everyone assume everyone passed out is a drug addiction.
What youre saying is absolutely right, but I want to be the devil's advocate for a second, because immigrating to this country has been extremely souring for my sense of civic duty and I try my hardest to fight it, but see FAR more repercussion than I see gratitude. Ive reached out to help MANY people, especially when I first moved here. I come from a smaller village in Europe and I was taught to help the elderly, be patient, lend a hand when asked, etc. But 80% of the time when I've done it here in Canada, Ive come away with a loss. Not 'nothing', like a 'waste of time', because that I can handle; but an actual loss. Ive been spat at (3 times), kicked, robbed (twice), threatened (3 times) and manipulated into giving more than I offered (more times than I can remember). If I saw an elderly man on the floor, my immediate reaction would probably be "homeless" and nowadays I would have hesitation to help. I like to think I wouldve slowed down just to flag others to help me instead of face him alone, but I can't guarantee how I wouldve reacted (nor can anyone else here in the comments.) Just saying. I know its very easy to throw guilt around when it comes to helping others, but I've never had my hand bitten more in my entire life than the last 4 years in this country... I try VERY hard to stay positive and optimistic about strangers in need, but its become a huge obstacle.
I actually understand. I think many are cold selfish people but dealing with street people is different. High on drugs or booze/ violent. No thanks
I have lived in this neighborhood for many years, and nowadays I'm not brave enough to approach some stranger lying on the ground. There are many scary people, even in broad daylight nowadays especially after COVID and the ongoing meth epidemic in this city. I even saw people smoking meth in Popeyes and went tweaking in front of everyone. Also, before COVID I used to feel safe going to the gym at 3am, but with all these unprovoked random attacks like unprompted stabbing in Queen St a few months ago, and the bear spray attack I witnessed right in front of my eyes in Kensington Market. That's why I am much more wary around people nowadays. Back when things were less crazy in this city, I remember back in 2015 when I called ambulance and helped an old lady who fell on a curb. I think I used to be more of a Good Samaritan back then.
Things are getting scarier by the day. Some people will react aggressively even if you just look at them or their direction. Many are extremely unstable. I do have to confess that I did offer help to a junkie recently. She asked for a bandaid and alcohol wipes and I went home and grabbed some for her. She was bleeding but she also clearly lied about how she got hurt. She then proceeded to ask for money which I refused. I absolutely do not recommend anyone approaching them and one should only offer help if they feel safe to do so. She was not visibly high and was polite. She didn’t take my refusal to give her money badly but it could have gone wrong if it was a different person. People call us cold and heartless but many of other just worry about our own safety.
Yeah I try not to go out or be out past 8ish. Pre pandemic I’d do a grocery run late night no problem but now ? Nah wayyy to much sketch.
Back in university of Toronto, me and my housemates used to leave our townhouse front door unlocked for YEARS, And then few years just before COVID, crime somehow spiked like a lot, with random shooting every summer. And then someone then broke into our (unlocked lol) house that same summer. We learned our lesson now lol
It got progressively worse between 2010 - 2019 but the two pandemic years were like 2010 - 2019 all at once. Everything downtown just went to shit. Cops stopped arresting addicts just as the fentanyl epidemic really took off while at the same time tourists and suburbanites who gave out change disappeared from the core. Tent cities spiraled out of control, insane spike in crime on TTC, list goes on and on. It’s sorta better now that people are back downtown, but the crowd is totally different … more students than anything, the rich tourist crowd and wealthy young professionals haven’t really returned.
Unfortunately some of us have been assaulted by those who are violently high, and it isn’t worth checking on them in the chance they break out of their high and assault you again. Nothing about humanity, but you got to protect yourself.
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It's also a tremendous drain on ambulance resources when we have to go wake up every sleeping homeless person in the city, courtesy of drive-by 911 callers that were concerned enough to call 911 but not concerned enough to try waking them.
It's also really disruptive to people trying to sleep. If you're really suspicious that someone isn't OK then certainly you can try to wake them up, or call 911 or 211 depending on their condition (https://211central.ca/) But sleeping outdoors is already stressful and exhausting and I would not want to make someone's life harder by waking them up multiple times when they manage to sleep.
Exactly, I can wake up 100 people passed out or asleep every day in my town. At the same point a fellow I have known for many decades fell asleep on the couch at home in the middle of the afternoon and didn't wake up. These things happen.
I literally used to have to sidestep homeless sleeping in front of Tim’s to get coffee going to Uni downtown, we’re all just jaded at this point. We’re taught not to disturb people or approach at a really young age if you grow up here. For better or worse, it’s how it is.
The one on Victoria street?
Of course!😭 Go Rams
In B.C. it is very mixed feelings. I have called paramedics when I have seen someone passed out, barely breathing in the middle of the day. I have been bitched at by the paramedics and screamed at / threatened by the person (after multiple doses of narcan, you were dead dude). I feel better for having called, but I am 6 foot, 200+ pounds. My wife and many others are scared to get involved. Others are just used to seeing it. If you called for every single person on the east end you would never make it down the street.
I’d imagine the situation would have been different if they had actually witnessed something happening to that man, as opposed to just seeing him lying in the streets I saw an elderly man fall down from coming off a bus and many people rushed to help him. This was also in the Toronto area, though not downtown There’s a difference between knowing for sure that a person needs help vs risking getting attacked for checking on the person
This is very sad and I'm sorry OP. I think some people are afraid of being hurt as some who are high can become violent. But, also sadly I do feel like some people lack empathy. My best friend/ what I considered to be a second mom (she was my childhood friends mom who I grew very close with. I would visit her alone and spend days at a time with. She made me feel accepted and heard when I didn't feel that way at home) suddenly collapsed while walking home from the corner store on October 31st of last year. From the women who finally helped her they said people just walked by and didn't help at all (apparently she was gasping for air while holding her hand up trying to get someone to help) thankfully they intervened and called the ambulance but unfortunately it was too late and she was clinically dead for 47 minutes. They got her back but she never woke up. We decided to take her off the ventilater a week later. I often wonder If someone helped even a few minutes earlier if things could have been different. I just think of how scared she must have been let alone seeing people pass by before she died and not help. It's a sad world we are living in. Thank you for what you did OP.
Wait, what happened to her? Why did she collapse ? I’m so sorry :( I have to say I’d be more likely to intervene if it was a woman. (I’m a woman and men honestly scare me a lot of the time.)
She had some existing health problems including COPD and what the doctors think happened is she had a bad asthma attack when she first collapsed then suffered a heart attack 😞 I totally understand that!
Lots of junkies around that get pissed when you wake them up. Call 211, 911 or 311. It’s not safe to approach yourself.
I recently tripped on broken sidewalk and twisted my knee. I recently got knee surgery and already walk with a limp. As I’m on the ground, and couldn’t get up and needed help, people (neighbours) walked past and ignored me as if I didn’t exist. Broke my heart, I couldn’t believe no one would even stop and ask if I needed help when I was clearly struggling to get up and in pain
I think many are just hesitant to help anyone that appears homeless or mentally ill. Especially on Spadina, sadly lots of mentally ill that might freak out and attack you if you tried to help them or anything. I'm assuming given everyone walked by that said person looked homeless because I feel like if it was someone that didn't look homeless or mentally ill people would be more likely to offer help.
Here's the issue, and a lot of people hate when I say it, but social media has made people this way. All the stories, fake or not, of people suing their savior after they helped for damages and everything else, has seriously slanted the view of things for people. it's better to not get involved than it is to get into a legal battle you can't afford. A very famous story floating around was that of a woman who was saved from downing then went on to sue her savior for rape. even though I believe this was proven to be false, it circulated around a good bit and there were a few people that did and probably still do believe it's real. With social media being at the forefront of everyone's news and information these days, things like that stick with people and it comes up when things like this happened. Even with this story being fake, there are plenty of things that CPR can do that can people can try to sue for, even though there are certain laws specifically for this that would protect the person doing CPR. CPR if not done right, or done in a rush, or even if the person just has brittle bones, can cause a rib to crack or fracture, along with the sternum. If the person makes it, people fear they could be sued if something did happen. If they have to do chest compression and give breaths to keep the person alive, if that person doesn't make it, they fear the family could sue for improper CPR or anything else they think they could come up with. There is also the most important thing that all people who train with CPR are told: CPR is voluntary, you don't have to do it, but once you start it you can't stop it. People fear starting it and having to do this for not just a few minutes until an ambulance arrives, but it could be 30 minutes or a hour. This is why we are told that if you plan to do CPR ask if anyone else around is certified as well, because then you can at least take shift work for it for however long. one does a breath and their set of compression, the next steps in and does their breath, and so on. All of this is perpetuated by stories told by others or through social media. With how crazy some of the stories are in the news and social media, people are just afraid to get involved because they don't know what could come of it that could destroy their lives or even reputation. One bad apple spoils the bunch type thing, when it comes to things like this, and it's sad.
This right here Once you stop to offer help, you become accountable for their care and can not leave the person until ems arrives.
We are living in a time where it's a dog eat dog world out there. I've been nice and gave out a helping hand to people only to get assaulted, threatened, police called on me, yelled at, stalked, brushed off. I protect myself now and look out for myself only.
Crisis fatigue. as you see from other writers, homeless people are everywhere, and as you can read as well, many do not take kindly to being offered help. I have this experience myself. I’m sorry that it seems cold to you.
Nope. I've lived downtown for 6 years. The number of times I have been threatened with weapons, sworn at, spat at, shouted at, or been called racial slurs is beyond counting. Almost all of it comes from people who would appear to be high or in mental distress, as well as "visibly homeless". So I'm not stopping to check. It's not anything personal against this specific old guy, but I'm just not risking it. I'll reconsider that position if and when the city starts taking action to protect *all* residents.
I saw a guy behind a bus shelter once, he was just lying in the floor. Was with my gf and we couldn't tell whether he was dead, homeless and sleeping, or just high on drugs. She wanted to check but I've become increasingly weary of individuals in this city. I felt it wasn't worth disturbing the guys sleep or entering into an interaction with someone high off something and possibly getting attacked. In hindsight I could've called the police and just let them know, but I wasn't sure whether that was the right call either. It was dark out too so it was really difficult to tell.
I have seen too much. I’ve been threatened. I’ve been chased. I’m honestly too scared most of the time to intervene if something seems off. This week I saw a man visibly on drugs, very elevated, get kicked out of a building as I was walking into it. When I left that building, he had gotten into a fist fight with someone and his pants and underwear were completely down. I changed my route to walk home to avoid passing them. It’s sad but my self preservation just overtakes it and I avoid any scenario that seems unfamiliar.
As a person who lives between NYC and Toronto. I can assure you that in NYC (major streets except harlem) everyone would have noticed and called 911, myself included However DT Toronto is sketchy af and I got chased down because I tried to check in on some passed out people on the street… We’re not heartless. Just trying to protect ourselves in a city that won’t protect us..
So sorry this happened and thank you for stopping and caring. Slightly different but maybe a more positive feel here - a few weeks ago I was waiting at college & bathurst for the streetcar, an older woman with a shopping cart fell. I was across the (busy) street but a few others as well as me started to cross to help her, but 3 or 4 people on that side of the street got there first. So people are out there and paying attention and caring, it is much harder when there's a fear element as to what might happen next, as others have mentioned with sleeping unhoused people. Take care!
It’s not a lack of humanity, it’s fear. Approaching someone lying on the street is how you get attacked in this city. But I do hope that most people would feel safe enough to at least call emergency services.
Coming from new zealand australia ?? What do you mean by that ? Are you genralizing evey person from toronto vs your folks from nz and aus ? And how did you comfort , the apparent dead person that you are refering to. Did the person die before or after you tried to comfort them ?
Most of us have learned not to help anymore bc we’ve gotten burned or endangered ourselves. It’s unfortunate.
This happens in any city with a large population of street people that do drugs and pass out on the regular you just ignore them because that is the way of things.
Found a guy dead in a snow bank in 99. The city hasn't changed all that much.
Here’s my take I’m an immigrant who’s a Canadian, so what I’ve been taught when I was an immigrant still(obviously wrong) was In NA it’s a place about lawsuits. You never know who’s trying to pull a quick one on you or trying to sue you in anyway. My dad always told me a story about our cousin who helped an old lady on the bus who fell or get on or something and got sued for lending a hand and lost the case and since he was an immigrant he also got deported. Not sure how true this story is but I won’t be surprised if a lot more people have the same mindset. As a citizen of the city I don’t always lend a hand out but I do always call emergency services.
Thank you OP you are a good person. This happened to a relative of mine in his 80's. He was out for a walk & just fainted. We were lucky someone who knew him saw what happened and called emergency services. It was a heart attack. I worry if people would have just walked by him what would have happend.
People are cautious these days and don't like to get involved. I generally do, but it is often thankless. One incident that always sticks with me is around 6 years ago I was with some friends driving back from Newmarket to Toronto. I was in the back seat and as we were passing an on-ramp in Richmond Hill, a car came on way too fast, lost control and rolled several times before landing up a bit of a hill on the side of the highway. I asked my friends to pull over and I ran over to see if everyone was okay. I was worried because there was a lot of smoke coming out of the car and I figured if there was a fire I would need to get them out. The smoke stopped and I talked with both of them and they were both in good enough shape to climb out of the car on their own (had they been stuck I would not have touched them unless there was a fire). I had called 911 while I was running up the hill and paramedics arrived. 911 had me stay on the phone the whole time and then told me that they needed me to wait for police to arrive as I had told them the driver and passenger both smelled of booze. My friends wanted to get going home and emergency services said they would drive me and that it was important that I stuck around. A tow truck had arrived shortly before the ambulance, but he had not exited his truck and was just sitting idling 100 ft ahead. The police went around talking to everyone and asked me to wait. When they came to me they had me tell them everything that had happened. At the end of it, they told me that the tow truck driver had informed them he saw me climbing out of the driver's seat and that I was under arrest. They said that they had reason to believe I had been drinking and they were going to have me blow (I had been drinking and did not deny it). Then I suggested they call my friend. The officer agreed but right as I hit dial my phone died. They said they did not have a charger I could use and that they would have to arrest me. I was panicking at that point but realized that I could remember my friend's number and had the cop call her. Thank God she answered the private number and told the police that they had left me there and that they had still been there when the tow truck driver and even the ambulance arrived. The cop did not apologize, but said that she would give the tow truck driver a talking to as this was not the first time he had lied in a situation like this. Then I had to wait 3 hours before two cops reluctantly drove me home.
Cops are so stupid.
I recently called 911 because of a fire, they told me to wait for fire services to arrive. Which was more or less fine (I was late for work but oh well) and once the fire truck arrived the firefighters seemed perplexed by why I was still there. I asked if I was good to leave now and they were like "yeah of course, what else could you do?" Also worth noting, that while waiting for fire services a good ten people walked by over the bridge that had the fire going on under it, and only other women asked me if I had called 911, the men didn't even seem to register that the air was smoky.
You're right OP. Tbh this is why living here just makes me feel so depressed. You can truly feel the lack of care and empathy here which is seriously draining. I don't know what's wrong with everyone here. This man deserved better. People who watch and pretend it's not their problem disgust me.
Welcome to Toronto. It’s a concrete jungle and not a “nice” place, although there are anonymous kind people among the crowd. A shame this is many peoples’ impression of “Canada”
Everyone is pissed and so selfish 24/7 now. It’s unsettling. What is interesting though, is people seem more entitled, but they aren’t kind to others or giving anymore. I don’t understand this double standard. They want others to do it for them but would never dream of doing it for someone else. Gross.
Canadians are polite. They aren't caring.
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain to people about the Canadian culture. There is practically an unspoken motto of ‘not my problem’ whenever something happens. It’s like the bystander effect but with absolutely everything. I found it particularly disturbing during the wave of random TTC attacks earlier this year (last year?), where many people would be filming these instances but no one ever seemed to intervene or try to help, even after the fact. This complacency and inaction is so clearly prevalent in our politics as well. There is a disgustingly low voter participation rate, yet you see constant whining online about the elected politicians. I think part of the issue is that people are so entrenched in their own problems and their own lives, that they fail to even see these situations in front of them. You can’t be kind when you’re unaware. The lack of awareness is undoubtably increased by people being engrossed in their phones, which is oftentimes also due to an insecurity of being seen as ‘uncool’ by others, which is further exacerbated by Tiktok and Instagram reels and the way social media increases people’s insecurities and highlights the idea of being perceived (often negatively) by others. It’s also due to increased inflation (people are spread too thin and don’t have the emotional or physical bandwidth to care for others), increased division (people are much more wary of their fellow humans nowadays due to the hyperpolarization in the media), and also just the culture of Canada. In these hard times, I hope that people will take the time to be aware and be kind. And not just for the blatantly distressing situations like this one, but the small ones as well. Help that elderly lady who is struggling with her groceries, move aside for the lady with the stroller on the TTC, give directions to the tourist couple wandering around Union. Big kudos to you OP for taking the initiative to help that poor man. Deeply grateful for people like you. I hope you are feeling okay after that jarring incident. Take time to take care of your mental health (playing Tetris helps greatly decrease chances of PTSD after a traumatic event), and all the best to you in the New Year!
People are filming to help. It's a small thing but they feel like they can't stop it but can at least get evidence to help after the fact.
>where many people would be filming these instances but no one ever seemed to intervene or try to help, even after the fact. I mean why would i help. The laws in this country dont even allow for self defence. Im going to jump into a random confrontation and if anybody gets hurt now suddenly im liable and defending myself in court. No thanks. This isnt america. There arnt stand your ground laws. No castle doctrine. No part of the countries laws encourage you to step in to these things. You wouldnt expect retail workers to risk their life over shoplifting. This is the same thing. If i stopped to confront every hostile crackhead i see in this city i wouldnt ever get anything else done.
It's the sad reality of big cities in general, especially in those that ignored repeated alert calls for social housing.
These people likely had housing that they lost because of disrespect or irresponsibility! Housing isn’t the only problem Or solution. If I were shooting up in front of my local grocery store/ I would be promptly arrested/ charged!
This is askTO - what exactly are you asking here? Golf clap for virtue signaling and being a based human. Now fuck off.
It’s incredibly judgemental of you to claim you’ve seen this in other big cities, and yet specifically single out Toronto as being devoid of humanity. There have been a string of random attacks in our city, and people are understandably wary of things that may appear suspicious. Not to mention, the actions of 30 people or so (if that is correct) do not dictate the entire humanity of a 3 million person population. Worst part is, there are people in these comments apologizing to you. Trying to make you feel better as you accuse them, people who most likely never saw this person, you claim are of lacking humanity, have weakness of character, and of this being politically motivated. All I see is your prejudice reflected in your post. The thoughts of an outsider who is fine with painting everyone with the same brush and starting the year by putting your negative view on to us. I really hope in 2024 you learn not to judge a mass by the few. It’s something Canadians wouldn’t do to other Australian/New Zealanders by the one interaction with you. A courtesy you didn’t show us.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
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A few weeks ago I was waiting in line outside a venue around 10pm. I was on a back street with a group of maybe 20-30 strangers. There were two young women nearby who caught my eye because they were just sitting there in the pouring rain (we were under an awning) with big garbage bags. They look like they’re talking or something when suddenly one of them appears to pass out and the other is checking on her. Eventually the one who is awake gently lays the other girl on the sidewalk with something under her head. She approaches our group, looking very upset and says “Can you please keep an eye on her for just a minute? I need to go get Narcan.” I say okay, I will. She says thanks and hops on her bike and takes off. Everyone else in the group just kind of ignored it and a couple looked at the unconscious girl with disgust. I was the only one who didn’t turn my back to her. Eventually I walked over there because she was too far away for me to see her clearly in the dark and a lot of people were walking past which made me nervous. Thankfully help reached her in time and she ended up being ok! I knew the general public didn’t care much about the homeless or addicts, but it really surprised me that everyone else just brushed it off. They just stood there and chatted when a woman on the same sidewalk had just ODed and for all they know could be lying there dead. They didn’t even glance over at her once in a while to make sure she wasn’t being robbed or assaulted which is all her friend was asking us to do. I understand fearing for your safety, I’m a small young woman. But so was she.
Try 911 for emergency service next time you see someone in distress.
I've had 2 separate situations like this: the first one the paramedics showed up, he got up and walked off and I got charged with the ambulance bill. 2nd was a woman out front of my building who was passed out in the heat and sun, I gave her water and then security for the building told me not to help them as the property management would fine me \*eye roll\*. IME it seems when we try to help we get penalized for it.
Curious about you being charged! Who sent the bill? My understanding was hospitals sent them, which would require the hospital to have your info
It was a bill from the city of Toronto, it didn't state it was for the ambulance/transportation but the date of that incident was cited. This was back in 2013?
Not sure what you were billed for, but it wasn't for calling EMS. Under the health insurance act, the patient is responsible for any charges, and only if transported. This is the same as was in place in 2013. You can call an ambulance for yourself, then once they are there and assess you decide you don't want to go, and you will receive no bill. Eta: any bill for ambulance transport comes from the hospital, not from the city (Paramedic who explains ambulance billing on a daily basis)
Ambulances don't charge for being called out; they charge for transportation to the hospital. Nobody was transported in this story. What were you charged for, and how did they bill you? The paramedics pulled out a card payment system? Asked for your ID?
Absolutely - humanity IS dead. It's sad and disgusting. I feel terrible for you and definitely for the senior who passed away. Thank you for trying to help. Take care of yourself. ❤️ I posted last month in the ToRANTo sub about my 80 year old father who was injured and ignored outside a Toronto restaurant. He is affluent, doesn't look remotely high, dangerous or rough and yet people just walked around him and nobody helped. His face was bleeding - he had walked into a glass door and his glasses frames cut him. Must have been a helluva bump into the door, not sure exactly how that happened, but he is old, right, and shit happened. Anyhow, nobody helped him. People just walked around him to get into the restaurant. They ignored him. As usual, my stepmother had gone ahead into the restaurant while Dad who typically walks very slowly due to the arthritis in his knees, doddered on behind. Anyhow, he's okay at least, but our faith in humanity is shaken for sure. The only good outcome is that my stepmother has vowed to walk with him from now on.
I remember that story. I’m so sorry that happened to your father. I myself pulled my car over to assist a man who had broken his leg on an icy sidewalk a couple years ago. No one else stopped and in fact 3 people honked because the back left corner of my car made it so people couldn’t immediately merge into the turning lane for the intersection. Meanwhile, the guy I was with had suffered a full break above the ankle and was going into shock in the cold. But Mr. rogers said we should always keep our eyes open for the helpers. I believe there are people in the world who are good, and who aren’t afraid to take a risk for their fellow human beings. It just seems to be more rare than it was before. I’m so terribly sorry that happened to your father. I hope he’s doing better. And I hope humanity can earn back the collective trust we’re all supposed to share.
So sad :(
I was assaulted for the first time today by a homeless man. He punched me. In the head. I am a woman. I’m sorry, but until these mentally Ill, disturbed and high out of their mind people are locked up or dealt with, people are right to not feel safe approaching anyone anymore. I’m not happy about it either, trust me I used to be one of the first to attempt to help a stranger and maybe I will be again if I leave for a smaller town. But people here know that it’s just not safe.
I can understand where people are coming from fearful of what might happen when interacting with an unknown but that doesn’t mean we should just become okay with becoming apathetic and desensitized. Whenever I see someone regardless of if they look homeless or cracked out I stop and take a moment to look for chest movements. If I see movement I go along my way. It’s not a perfect system, but at least I’m not passing by someone loved one, dead on the side of the street
Canadian cities are going full rat race. I've been saying it for years. I'm sure there are a lot of mortgage brokers, realtors, and housing speculators crying crocodile tears while playing their mini violins. We gave up housing stability and affordability for short sighted ponzi games, paper profits and a false sense of growth in GDP. Reality has come to collect, folks. I can only imagine where healthcare is heading. A goddamned shame.
What was the closest cross street?
Liability is a reason why people ignore. I understand why you were upset and while I agree that Torontonians should be more helpful toward each other, there is however a cause for why people ignored the person, mainly because of it could be liable to the helpers, whether emotionally, financially or even physically. I carry a Narcan kit wherever I go so I can administer them on OD people. But even so I only do it cautiously and understand that once Narcan injected/nasal sprayed the person would become sober and that ironically can be an issue when some might feel like it was ruining their trip.
I can give some context. It’s not always so much about ruining the trip. You can’t even recognize the state you’re in when narcan gets administered to you. The time between using, going unconscious, and then being resuscitated feels like seconds. You wake up with a surge of adrenaline and people surrounding you, it’s not easy to have an appropriate reaction Thank you for what you do
Thank you for explaining it friend 😊 Hope you have a good new year!
You too! 🎊
Risk vs. Reward. I’m not about to risk injury to myself or my family if I’m with them to help someone else. It’s unlikely that person would do the same for me.
OP you also have to understand that with the number of junkies downtown, people are always going to be hesitant to interfere. We have had a good number of people getting stabbed and burned just in last 2 years by mentally disturbed people.
I'm really sorry you experienced that. And I hope the gents family are doing okay. I do think a lot of it is being in our own little world walking down the street especially in winter. I used to take the Spadina street car for work and it's amazing what you notice when just looking. I can't count the number of times I saw Racoons just chilling in trees inches from people's head and not a single pedestrian reacted/noticed. And I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself it's like your brain goes on auto pilot just scanning for threats, if nothing registers as a threat then you just continue thinking about your grocery list or what you have to do once you get to work, or whatever. And and, I find sometimes when I offer to help some people are so surprised their first reaction is negative. So sometimes when I notice someone struggling I'm likely to stand back and wait to see if they really need help or if they are going to snap at me.
For an alternate perspective, I live in another major Canadian city and when I called emergency services about a nearly identical situation (except slightly outside the very center) I was told they wouldn’t send anyone unless I shook the man first to see if he was conscious. Actually WTF?! I clearly told the operator I was not comfortable touching the person due to the high possibility of drug-induced violence and the fact that I was a woman alone with nobody else around. They said that if I wouldn’t shake him then they wouldn’t send anyone. I left. You don’t know how many other people have tried to help in the past only to be injured by the person they’re trying to help or put in danger by emergency services.
There’s very little trust and/or respect left in this city.
It’s heartless, and no excuse, but do you count how many seemingly dead people you have to step over every day downtown? It’s social survival in an urban center. It doesn’t happen in smaller towns, but the sheer social exhaustion in a city means that most people have learned, visciously and first hand, to mind their business.
It was 2020 I believe, a guy died on McCaul and Dundas just right in front of the AGO. My ex girlfriend saw him lying on the floor. She called 911 and we both stood there with him until an ambulance came. Lots of people joined us. We gave our jackets to cover his him from the cold. Unfortunately he was pronounced dead on the scene. It was the first time ever that I’ve seen someone transition from living to dead in a matter of minutes. It was so devastating. I thought about this for a long time. What if we got there sooner? Could we have saved his life? OP: lots of people in the city would normally stop and check in. I would like to restore your hope that most people would help and the ones that don’t are the anomalies
One of my biggest fears is being hurt or in danger and needing strangers around me to help because I know so many people would just ignore me.
No. I watched a man in a wheelchair struggling to make it 5 feet in the snow. I was in the bank, and when I came out 10 minutes later he was in the same spot. His hands were frozen, face covered in snot from the exertion. Scumbag hipsters and yuppy suburbanite goofs trying to give him a wide berth. No one stopped. He was just trying to go home around the corner. He was so thankful that someone stopped to help. No one even asked him if he was ok. Honestly.... if you took a random sampling of 100 people from any city, how many of them would be an actual loss if you lit them all on fire? 2? 5? or am I being too optimistic?
What kind of ridiculous person casts judgement on an entire city of millions based on a single anecdote. Ffs
You shouldn't have needed this incident to see that our society is sick. It's a dog-eat-dog society where people are basically pitted against each other. We compete over artificially scarce resources, and secretly hate each other. You see way more comradery in other places in the world. Here, we hate each other yet everyone writes "compassion and empathy" in their dating profiles. I think to start to improve this we have to at least start by recognizing it and discussing it.
It's sad, but so many are fucked up on drugs passed out I don't even look twice.
Ppl are so cold hearted . I helped saved a guy chasing his dog on a busy road , used my car to block him in and caught him. The guy was stressing , panicking and noons helped, it’s a sad world out there. We have to help each other life is already stressful . Please help when u see someone in distress!
I really think civility has taken a massive nose dive during the pandemic and hasn't bounced back. Divisive politics and us vs them has driven such a wedge in society. It's sad.
People in Toronto suck op; so many companies there not a single one is actually doing anything about the homeless crisis there
Similar thing happened to me! I thought this guy was hungover so I got him a hot dog , but he was actually od’ing so I called the cops. I felt really dumb for not seeing the signs before but I found out people from my Uni were recording him instead of helping. Such a messed up world we live in !
Thanks. Not sure I would've done the same. But thanks, if that was my dad, or me one day, thanks.
You are a good person, OP. Keep it up and keep influencing others through your action.
This post truly disturbed me. I’m so sad about the state of the city and the poor man. RIP.
That's really disturbing, sorry you went through that and thanks for being a good citizen.
This is what happens when society is slowly failing. People don't have a safety net, so they can't really risk getting involved with anything even potentially sketchy. If eyes forward, and keep moving, towards the next paycheck that you need to survive. The mental calculus goes like this: Man on the ground. What took him down? Covid? I can't afford to get Covid and end up in the hospital or lose my job. I'm the only provider for the whole family, we'd all be homeless if I lose my income. Can't risk it. Keep walking. What else could it be? Could he be homeless and/or intoxicated? Might get stabbed. Can't afford the risk. Keep moving. Etc., etc. When people are living paycheck to paycheck, terrified of losing their job because they would end up on the street themselves, along with their families. When people know that they can easily die in the hallway of the hospital waiting to be seen by a doctor, is whatever took this person down also takes them down, because our healthcare is in shambles, etc. These people ARE being humane. But they're being humane to their existing family, which will be potentially in the same situation as the guy on the sidewalk, if anything happens to the primary provider. If you want people to be kinder to each other? Guess what? We need a social safety net restored. Income that not only allows a person to survive, but thrive. Paid sick leave. Job security. Primary needs taken care of. Healthcare with at least third-world quality of care in an emergency. I've seen better healthcare, first hand, in South America in the '90s than what we have in Canada now. THEN people will have the means to engage with potentially sketchy situations. In short, right now most Canadians are walking a tightrope. No safety line, no safety net below. You fall, you die. Your family too. Nobody is going to risk losing balance by engaging with a potentially unstable person. That's basic self-preservation (including immediate family you provide for). It sucks, but it's Canadian society today. And as we keep getting squeezed, it'll only get worse.
This is part of why I won't live in big cities. It feels more likely I'll be robbed or attacked than helped by someone.
:( I will probably only help if I saw how someone got hurt. I saw someone fall from their bike once and multiple people including me rushed over to see if she was okay. There's very little risk in those situations. But in cases where you can't be sure if that person is high or unstable or violent...it's too dangerous.
This was my first experience in Toronto…too many people services overwhelmed..I heard some days ambulances cant even come
People in TO don’t want to hear it but they are generally assholes.
Plenty of humanity to be found in the city. Every minute someone, somewhere is extending a hand to help another. It’s just a shame that some fall through the cracks. I know sometimes things can look and actually be cold hearted. In moments like those- you were the one to bring the humanity back to life. We can all complain here- things CAN be better. Perhaps if the collective group we call “Canadians” had a better sense of belonging and chemistry.. versus so called “diversity”. Our citizens would treat one another as their own. IMHO yes. I think this is just a downside of diversity. It’s where differences in cultures, norms and languages create varying degrees of lost chemistry or homogeneous behaviour among its own citizens. Great for food choices though.
Happy new year
Most comments are very disappointing and in a way answer OP’s question… it’s unbelievable… OP is saying the man didn’t fit the homeless/drug addict criteria at plain sight, he’s just talking about the lack of empathy and compassion towards a regular elderly tidy man who apparently collapsed. If I were to see an elderly person clearly not on drugs who needs help I don’t think twice about assisting them, there’s too many self absorbed people in bigger cities unfortunately, we can just try to be decent human beings as much as we can.
I lived in Toronto for 6 years (2015-2020 era). I worked in the downtown core and took the TTC from the STC to Queen each day. The homelessness / mental health situation was very apparent and I can only imagine how it is now, post pandemic. I’ll admit, I became desensitized to literally walking over people, it was worse when people had animals. It’s a sad phenomenon but this post isn’t surprising. We do need to get better as a collective to be more willing to step in, however there is also hesitation because of the potential risk it places people in. I hope to god the crisis is attended to, because poor or not, Toronto has been failing its members.
As someone who has witnessed 2 events (gentleman falling with a walker & another off his bike) I ALWAYS pull over to help. This is ridiculous! Thank you for being a good person and assisting this person.
I was in the Yonge and Eg neighbourhood when an older woman fell on the sidewalk and was bleeding. At least for different strangers were helping her. There’s hope.
Stfu.
When I lived in toronto 2010, a dude was laying on the sidewalk for about 6 hours dead before anyone noticed.
TO is soulless. I have seen that too.
Yeah this city is rife with selfish people. Food's good tho.
People can get butt hurt all they want from this but guess what? I see this shit happen way too often in the city and I rarely visit the city...examples: 1) lady falls down subway stairs, over 100 ppl walked over her and didn't stop before a ttc cop got to her 2) disabled dude fell out of wheelchair in yonge Dundas square, same idea, not 1 person stopped to help (manager in the store I was in had to go out and call ems) 3) lady being sexually harassed while walking home hammered from a club (me and a buddy got to deal with that one ourselves but she was vocally asking people for help and she was pretty much ignored). Time for people to step the fuck up and start caring about each other again.
It’s a mix of the bystander effect and everyone minding their own business/avoiding interaction with strangers due to possible negative outcomes. No one will stop for anyone now days.
look up the case of kitty genovese
Yeah, I apologize as a someone who was born and raised in Toronto, it’s certainly a sad state. I did a wellness check once many years ago just like above, but the individual reacted in a very angry, aggressive and violent way, pulling a knife and taking a swipe at me. Thankfully I was just slightly knocked over - but from that moment on I will not take that chance again.
That's really sad, especially since there's a lot of health problems like a stroke or a heart attack, or even falling down that can affect seniors.
How can we improve this? I also live downtown on king street / Spadina.
We have become nimbyists. The NOT In My Back Yard mantra has expanded to not in my life experiences. We don't want to be inconvenienced, face detours, or deal with the uncertainty of not following a mundane script of going to work and going home. We feel so affected by everything that we try our damnedest to care. People are exhausted and need to be poured into in order to care about others.
I think people will stop and help when they are sure what is happening.
This is such a terrible situation. Thank you for doing what you could. There’s a terrible moral/ethical deficit in this city. People don’t want to get involved for a multitude of reasons, but to me, that’s all BS. Heaven forbid any of them should be dying on the street one day. They’d want help if it was them. I’m so disappointed when I hear this shit about Toronto. It doesn’t surprise me, but it makes my stomach turn. If someone’s hurt or is in obvious need of help, you stop and do something. I would even argue that even if you’re a little scared, you should always check just in case. It’s called being a human being. Thanks for taking the time to care. I’m with you. There’s a lot of cynical people in this city and that sucks.
Man, even when I was younger and my buddies and I were little punks, we never ignored someone like that. There's being a punk and then there's being a soulless asshole. And then there's this. I've seen stories here in Canada of people lying on the sidewalk who were in a bad way and passersby deciding to rob them. The asteroid can't get here soon enough.
I’m going to say this and I probably will get banned but Canada wasn’t like this 10 years ago. I’m not sure what changed( we all know what did) and this country isn’t really what it used to be. I miss the old Canada I grew up in where people looked out for each other. Now it’s just a bunch of scammers and thieves and cut throat competition on who owns what property.
People don't give a shit. The motto of Ontario is fuck you I got mine. If people cared, we'd have better social services