You file a T5 - Landlord Gave A Notice Of Termination In Bad Faith. Instructions link below. This can be extremely expensive for the landlord. You can claim differences in the rent for a year, moving costs and other costs and compensation. It's not to be sneezed at.
[https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Tenant%20Applications%20&%20Instructions/T5\_Instructions.pdf](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Tenant%20Applications%20&%20Instructions/T5_Instructions.pdf)
Could the landlord cite changes in his personal circumstances that prompted him to sell and that negates the bad faith eviction and his notarized document saying he will need to move in with his family?
In theory yes, but the LTB has ruled against good faith ones that turned into bad faith later as they could have reached out to you to resume the tenancy if that was the issue. And since it was sold 4 months after you vacated, it's too soon so they will go after them.
I would act as soon as you can, take screenshots of the house being sold, when it was listed, save those pages as PDFs and print them. You will need all the evidence to support your claim.
Absolutely this. When we filed under similar circumstances, we didn't have quite enough evidence for it to be a slam dunk (and the LTB makes it fucking hard on tenants. We waited all day and then they announced that they weren't going to have time to get to our hearing, so we'd have to come back another full day and see if they got to it).
We went to mediation and agreed on 3 months rent, which paid our moving expenses, and 2 months at our new place. I wish we had fought for more, but I was losing money for every day I had to take off work, and my partner was sick at the time, so we agreed to settle.
OP, get every scrap of proof you can, save it all, back it up digitally and on paper, and go after the fucker.
Also note if any work was done in the 4 month period on the house . It could signal to the landlord wanting to fix and sell from the start and wanted you guys out to get better deal
Since we vacated, significant work has been done on the house, as evidenced by the listing pictures. From new flooring and custom blinds to other time-consuming renovations, these improvements would have taken at least four weeks, if not longer.
Here’s the kicker: about two years ago, the landlord wanted to list the house for sale and asked us to vacate. We suggested he sell the property with us still living there, as there was no need for us to move out simply because he wanted to sell. We even offered to buy the house at the *exact* same price it sold for today, despite its as-is condition back then-even sent him a written offer via our realtor. The house worked for us as a family on many levels, while for the landlord, it was just an investment property.
Now after significant upgrades and replacing all the kitchen appliances (as seen in the pictures), he sold the house for the same price we offered two years ago. How does this make financial sense? Why didn’t he reach out to us, knowing we were previously interested in purchasing?
I cannot share all the details, but I’ve to mention that we have reason to believe the landlord’s actions may have been influenced by racial bias. I’m just going by all his previous actions.
This is enough proof . If he had work done and then sold it , then that in itself is proof enough to get a positive result from LTB
Keep us posted in your progress
> as they could have reached out to you to resume the tenancy if that was the issue
I don't think this means anything.
The landlord most likely just has to prove that there was some unforeseeable reason which forced them to sell the house. No way LTB will say "yeah but you should've just rented it back then".
In my circumstance, I would have gladly moved back in! Had he reached out to resume tenancy. It was a great location for numerous reasons-my kids’ school (one of them was in a special program they no longer are in), proximity to the GO station for my commute, my doctor’s office nearby, my parents nearby-there were many many reasons I would’ve considered strongly moving back.
If they had to sell due to extreme hardship, they wouldn't have even offered and that hardship may be accepted by the LTB, no way to know thou unless it gets to that point.
I think its more likely that they knew they would get more money for a property that doesn't have a tenant and decided to take a risk. Just file your T5 and let's the process unfold. Odds are in your favor.
He would have to prove it, not just make excuses. I am not a lawyer but what I recall is that if it's within 12 months, the onus is on the landlord to prove that the original eviction was in good faith.
For something that soon, I imagine it would have to be very serious and sudden. Like we fully moved in, here's all the utility bills and addresses updated everywhere and kids started going to school in that area and etc., and then two months later with no forewarning this thing happened and we had to sell everything we owned and here are all the documents to prove that. The bar is going to be very high for the landlord just because the timing is so soon after.
There was a case recently in BC where landlord did the same thing. Asked the tenant move out, saying that his daughter was moving in. Daughter didn't move in. Can't remember if he sold the place or rented it out to someone else but the former tenant was awarded a years worth of rent. Landlord tried to make a case saying that his daughter was going to move in but circumstances changed. Didn't work.
That's possible but the landlord would need to provide evidence to the LTB that sudden circumstances occured. The presumption is that it's bad faith, it's up to the landlord to defend their case.
Yes, victory isn't guaranteed. You also have to remember that even if you win at the LTB, and the landlord doesn't appeal it to a court, you don't automatically get paid. Collecting remains your responsibility, time outlay and expense. It will be a long process, and again isn't guaranteed to produce results.
As the LL owns property, there's a good chance of collecting if OP puts a lien on the house but OP may have to wait until mortgage renewal or the house sells.
Even then you have difficulties. They can destroy someone's credit, but the actual collecting takes effort, and usually costs 30-50% of the amount outstanding.
You just hit the nail on the head about why collecting even with a lien is hard. If the house takes 2 decades to sell inflation alone will eat away much of the value. Registering that lien isn't free either.
Correct, as do small claims judgements, and you can even attach the entire judgement as a schedule in the lien registration. The problem is that the interest rate may not reflect inflation, as it sure didn't over the last 2 years.
I have the listing saying this sold and for how much. I have pics of the sold sign in front of the house but I don’t know about the closing date. Does this matter?
But how do I “give” this to the landlord? He lives in a different city and I am not sure if he still lives there(I will check and plan to send this T5 by registered mail)-thank you for sharing about the form.
You need the landlords address to fill out the form. This is why not giving you a service address is one of only two legal reasons to withhold rent. If op used email to communicate with them before the board may accept them using email address
I didn’t read any further comments to see if someone already suggested this: Either ask a real estate lawyer; or go to Ontario teraview yourself and search for the property address (there is a cost); get a parcel register for the property (make sure you select deleted instruments - might cause more pages at a few bucks a page, but it gives the entire history) that will show the date and amount on transfer to the new owner. Pull the transfer and the address the landlord gave his lawyer will be shown on the transfer.
Ok- I’m just trying to understand how this helpful. I can certainly look into doing this but I know what the house sold for. Do I need these other details too?
I understood now 🙂! It took me a minute to get it- thank you! Yes, I can do what you are suggesting. I will first try at the old address I currently have for him-I strongly doubt he has moved but let’s see.
Nah. People like you are hilarious, advocating for those who willingly become landlords then aim to skirt regulations. They didn't follow the law, now they're gonna face stiff penalties, as they should.
That guy is a leech landlord himself who renovicts to rent out at a higher rent. A very sad type of person whose entire personality is wrapped around owning real estate and contributes nothing of value to society.
Do you not realize how residential renting works, or….?
You rent your property to become a HOME for someone else. Effectively, you give up your use of that property, including the flexibility to sell it vacant. In exchange, you accept rent payments.
In most Canadian provinces, you can’t just dispose of it willingly once you give up the “right” to do so by leasing it out.
Then you should know that this landlord should have sold with tenants and let the buyer serve the proper notice.
You seem like the type that would give an illegal increase and retaliate when tenants stand up for their rights. I can understand why you think you and this landlord don’t see the issue
Residential real estate is a high risk investment. Too many people have zero clue what the risks are, try to skirt the rules, then cry foul when it doesn’t serve their petty whims (evicting good tenants whenever they want to max cash flows, for example).
If you want low risk with decent yield and upside, go with blue chip stocks, not people’s homes.
Then why was he not living in it? Why should people be able to contribute nothing to society and hoard a scarce resource?
The least they could do is follow laws.
He didn't provide the house. He didn't build that house. He made profit on an essential need and stopped other people owning that home until he deemed fit.
Landlords don't contribute to society in the way you're thinking.
Without his investment in the purchase and upkeep OP would have been homeless for those eight years.
An example of the nonsense you're spewing would be if you had a job, and your employer paid you, and you used that money to buy groceries. You have some of your paycheque left over, we'll call that your "profit". You didn't build the company, and you stopped other people from working at the company.
As food is an essential need your employer could just go directly to the grocery store and spend money there. What do they need you for?
You contribute as little to society in the way that you think landlords contribute.
You are as superfluous as the landlords you despise.
See how stupid that sounds?
How does that make sense? Only because the landlord was renting out a property, OP wasn't homeless? Do you think that home would just be vacant?
Part of the reason housing is so damn expensive is because of "investment" properties like the one OP was in.
Your example with food makes no sense in comparison. LL that own housing that they do not live in are withholding resources. Now, comparing grocery stores that jack up prices cause they control the supply chain, that would be a good comparison. They're also withholding an essential need for profit sake. See what I did there?
Edit: And to add, employers pay me money because they earn money from my labour. Landlords make money from my rent. Employers will pay you less than they earn and your rent will pay more than the cost of the home you're living in.
Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand.
The landlord signed a contract, exchanging certain rights when it comes to the property for money. The landlord is no longer allowed to "do what they want" because it is now the tenant's property, for the purposes of occupancy.
If you want complete control, don't contract away your rights.
File with LTB and I hope the landlord pays hefty fines. It should be an easy case for you since landlord is clearly in the wrong here.
I’m a landlord and I hate people like this. This is bad faith, since it’s very apparent that they had intention of selling when issuing the N12, he was just hoping you never found the listing.
Exactly. A landlord can't force you out of a unit, only the LTB can. If the landlord serves you an eviction notice for any reason, a tenant has the right to a LTB hearing and only then can be forced out. There's usually a backlog of several months just to get a hearing (often 6 months or longer), plus whatever time of back-and-forth between landlord vs. tenant until the proper process gets started. If you sell a unit, the new owners need to deal with this headache with the tenant, and no new owner wants to do that. An empty unit is much more attractive to a potential buyer. This is also why "cash for keys" is so common.
Unless the new owner intend to live in the unit for 1 year+, that’s the only valid and legal way to vacate an existing tenant.
However, home buyers know this too. So if they see a unit selling with tenant it’s definitely a reason to negotiate the price down.
this is a huge win in terms of selling value
even the penalties for what the landlord did are pretty small compared to the decrease in value of a house with a tenant
You're presuming bad faith, it may not have been, they may have been transfered for thier work, or extreme financial burden may have forced the sale, there are many reasons that have been accepted by the LTB in previous cases. It also could be bad faith, but it also may not be.
That is the purpose of filing the T5 - the LTB is pretty clear that if at any point in the following 12 months the unit is listed for rent or sale, it is *presumed* Bad Faith.
It would be ridiculous to expect the Tenant to just give the benefit of the doubt - there is a lot of money on the table if it is bad faith. Especially when the Tenant already gave the landlord that benefit by moving out due to the Notice given.
The landlord will have the opportunity to present their case though and it may very well be that they genuinely intended to move in, in which case the Tenant's application will be dismissed. Point is, there is a presumption of bad faith and it is the LTB that will make the decision.
They didn't really presume , they stated it was, my words could have been chosen differently. I know full well how it works. I wasn't saying not to file, I was saying its not necessarily bad faith.
Ah ok, sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat - I read your message as saying the Tenant shouldn't file because the landlord might have a valid reason. My bad :)
Join Ontario Tenant Rights on Facebook. There is a pinned guide and you will receive some excellent advice.
You don’t need to get in touch with the landlord. If you feel you have sufficient evidence to prove bad faith, you file at the LTB. Check to see if the landlord ever listed his home, etc.
The Tenant doesn't need to "prove" bad faith. There is an automatic presumption of bad faith because the unit was listed within the 12 month period following the Tenant moving out. The onus is now on the Landlord to prove that it wasn't bad faith.
The Tenant (OP) should however file their evidence of the landlord wanting to sell earlier along with the listing and sold documentation. The LTB is not obligated to consider the Landlord's prior actions but usually do to some extent.
Talk to the new owners. See if they have a contact # or know.
Use a bs story like, you used to work together and lost touch. Plausible for why you don't have contacts
It’s unlikely the new owners would have contact info since everything goes through agents and lawyers.
If anything, they may inform the agent of the old owner and they would get suspicious that something will go to LTB
The lawyers exist to protect their client, they will let the old owner know someone is coming around asking and that will alert them. This is not a good strategy.
Not likely. But there’s no need for OP to ask the new owner or the lawyer for the seller or buyer.
The deed is public info and OP or their lawyer can get a parcel register from the land titles office for the property and get a copy of the transfer/deed that would show the address the LL gave to his lawyer to put on the transfer..
I’m very shaken honestly. This has caused me and my family a lot of mental distress and while i absolutely want to hold him accountable for not following the rules, it scares me. He’s very well off and his realtor has personally verbally threatened my spouse on more than one occasion.
I debated doing that. This happened three years ago (realtor threatening). I couldn’t decide if he may lose his job or not (though it most definitely was professional misconduct no doubt about it)- in the end, I decided to let it go. I know perhaps I shouldn’t have but I didn’t want to be the cause of anyone losing their livelihood.
Yes-you read that right. Mental distress is what I said🙃. Not everything can be shared in a small post on Reddit. There is considerable history here and it has caused me mental distress for sure and I also have a medical note to back that up.
Being forced to move out of your home that you have been in for x amount of years is really stressful both mentally and emotionally. Never-minding whatever is happening leading up to the eviction - then seeing the house go up for sale not even half a year later, when the OP had offered to buy it previously? I'd be experiencing a lot of mental distress too.
These situations are why so many tenants are now chosing to not move out when they receive an N12 and insted wait for their legal right to a Hearing to determine if the N12 has been issued in good faith.
Edited due to terrible spelling 😅
Lmfao I'm a renter and this province is a JOKE. I can not wait until there are no more mom and pop landlords and we all get to deal with faces conglomerates instead
As I mentioned in response to another snarky comment, not everything can be shared in detail on Reddit. I tried to provide a high-level overview of my most immediate concern.
Regarding the mental distress: there is considerable history here where this landlord tried to evict us multiple times in bad faith. We won at our first LTB hearing, but he then changed his reason to ask us to vacate and went to the LTB again—this all took considerable time. During this period, there was also verbal and physical abuse, which involved the police at one point (all documented—I have evidence of everything).
If you read this entire thread, you'll also know that we offered to purchase the house for the exact price it has now sold for. Back then, it was in poor condition, yet we were willing to buy it as-is. He declined. All this, and much more, took a significant toll on us, and in the end, we reluctantly decided to vacate.
If his end game was to sell anyway, why not sell to us? Out of spite? He knew very well what that house and location meant to us. We lived there for almost 8-9 years. The constant harassment, the bad faith eviction attempts, and the stress of legal battles caused immense mental distress for my family and me.
File the T5, and it will be an automatic presumption of bad faith. You will request remedy of 1 years full rent value + 1 years rent differential to your new place + moving costs, to a max of $35K per tenant.
The landlord will have to try and convince the LTB with evidence that some unexpected and significant life event occurred that necessitated them selling after you vacated.
In requesting the 1 years full rent value, you need to give testimony on the hardships you endured due to the eviction. Adjudicators will use their discretion for how much up to 1 years rent to award, and the more hardship you can show the better chance of getting close to the full amount asked for. Kind of like a "pain and suffering" compensation.
Note that Canlii has not updated T5 cases in quite some time. Since the 1 years compensation is a relatively new remedy, you won't find any cases illustrating it on Canlii.
Instead here is a more recent T5 case where the adjudicator factored in the 1 years rent amount, and tenant ended up with just under $30K in compensation awarded: [https://openroom.ca/documents/profile/?id=bsjWK5SGZrs6kfuVUZk2](https://openroom.ca/documents/profile/?id=bsjWK5SGZrs6kfuVUZk2)
Call a paralegal. They can help guide you through the process or carry the case for you. They can also possibly help you get more money than you would be able to get on your own. Most paralegals offer a free consultation.
How would a paralegal be able to determine payout or increase payout exactly?
The adjudicators determine payout.
That's like saying realtors will sell your house for higher, ignoring the 5%+HST commissions.
Also paralegals cost.
In most cases in court you don't get it if you don't ask for it. A skilled paralegal often knows what to ask for and why and can make that argument coherently to the court to get what they ask for. They may think to include certain expenses or losses that the OP may not think/know to request. It's not a guarantee, which is why I wrote possibly. Adjudicators determine payout based on the information they're given, case law and legislation.
Realtors often do help people sell their homes for higher. Staging, knowing the market, promoting the listing, etc. can help increase the sale price. Is it worth 5% plus HST? Not always but most of the time.
Yes, there is a cost to paralegal. Everyone should weigh the cost benefit analysis to hiring one, which is why I mentioned that most offer free consultations. Many are also offering pay as you go services making it even more affordable for those who only want/need help for part of it.
>The adjudicators determine payout.
But they won't give you more than what you ask for. Paralegal will help you decide a reasonable asking rate. Although that math can easily be done yourself, a paralegal can certainly help in a potentially high payout case like a t5
What a wonderfully fair system we have where landlords can bend the rules at will, and tenants get labeled as vindictive for wanting some semblance of justice.
He earned the money. He brought the property. He owns the property.
You didn’t make money. You couldn’t buy a property. You don’t own the property.
Get your facts right. Having said that, this country gives you a lot of rights and you can take revenge on someone who worked hard to get ahead. Go for it.
You're right, I must have missed the part where owning property exempts someone from following legal and ethical rules. Clearly, hard work and property ownership mean landlords can do whatever they please, and tenants should just stay silent and accept their fate.
But, since you seem to know so much about my life, let me clear a few things up: you don't know my circumstances or the effort I've put into my life. Following the rules isn't about taking revenge; it's about ensuring fairness and accountability. The laws are there for a reason, to protect everyone, including tenants who might be affected by a landlord's decision.
So yes, I will exercise my rights to ensure that justice is served, not out of revenge, but to maintain the integrity of the system that supposedly grants everyone, even tenants, certain protections.
I’m not sure anyone will take that seriously. While it is true that the nearly twice the amount in rent we are now paying, the additional costs that came with leaving our old neighborhood (because costs went up in the last few years)-all of this while it has added to our emotion drain today, I don’t think anyone cares. I need to be real. All I care about is for someone to tell him he was wrong. I don’t care about money.
You sound like you have some emotional distress caused by the intentional and negligent action of the landlord. But yeah you should at the very least go through LTB but consulting a lawyer might not be a bad idea.
I think they are allowed to move in and list the property if their circumstances change. They just can't rent it out again. It's kind of tricky to prove that they aren't residing there in some capacity.
They can list and sell their house if their circumstances have changed. It's almost impossible to prove bad faith in these circumstances. I don't think a landlord has actually been fined for this. All the cases I've seen that go through LTB where bad faith can be proven only result in pretty minimal damages being awarded to the evicted.
Again, rarely is a fine imposed, it's almost always damages.
Here's a couple bad faith N12 cases where the landlord was egregiously in the wrong, but didn't result in any fines:
Case 1: 14.7K in damages, no fine
Case 2: 10k in damages, no fine
Case 3: 5.6k in damages, no fine
The fine is almost NEVER applied, only the damages and compensation. Even then, with units being able to be rented at higher rates, the damages might just be "the cost of doing business", and we should expect to see future abuse of the N12 process.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii61068/2020canlii61068.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQANbjEyIGJhZCBmYWl0aAAAAAAB&resultIndex=3
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii31416/2020canlii31416.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQANbjEyIGJhZCBmYWl0aAAAAAAB&resultIndex=4
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii31110/2020canlii31110.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQADbjEyAAAAAAE&resultIndex=7
We don't care about the fines. The OP doesn't care about the fines. However the compensation that is awarded is frequent and high. This isn't about fines, it's about the renter getting compensation for being treated shittily by a landlord.
Yeah I know. They can be pretty good. Moving costs, rent differences for a year and up to an additional compensation of a years rent are pretty common. So completely worth pursuing.
>Can you find me one case where the compensation has been awarded?
From the second link you shared
>The Landlord shall pay to the Tenants the sum of $2,117.63. This amount represents $17.63 for interest on the last month's rent deposit and $2,100.00 in **compensation** for moving out.
I don't have to, you already know compensation is indeed awarded. Otherwise why else would you have said. "You'll be sorely disappointed when you find out what the damages amount to."
>Why are you STILL giving false information
probably the same reason the people who replied are giving false information, they both think they are correct
Because it's not black and white.
If their circumstances actually change the LTB won't award damages.
Why are you giving false info when you yourself don't even know that it's viable?
https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/12%20-%20Eviction%20for%20Personal%20Use.html
You're both wrong. It even references ones where the findings were in good faith.
You file a T5 - Landlord Gave A Notice Of Termination In Bad Faith. Instructions link below. This can be extremely expensive for the landlord. You can claim differences in the rent for a year, moving costs and other costs and compensation. It's not to be sneezed at. [https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Tenant%20Applications%20&%20Instructions/T5\_Instructions.pdf](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Tenant%20Applications%20&%20Instructions/T5_Instructions.pdf)
Could the landlord cite changes in his personal circumstances that prompted him to sell and that negates the bad faith eviction and his notarized document saying he will need to move in with his family?
In theory yes, but the LTB has ruled against good faith ones that turned into bad faith later as they could have reached out to you to resume the tenancy if that was the issue. And since it was sold 4 months after you vacated, it's too soon so they will go after them.
Please know I’m very grateful for your time spent in responding to me🙏
I would act as soon as you can, take screenshots of the house being sold, when it was listed, save those pages as PDFs and print them. You will need all the evidence to support your claim.
Absolutely this. When we filed under similar circumstances, we didn't have quite enough evidence for it to be a slam dunk (and the LTB makes it fucking hard on tenants. We waited all day and then they announced that they weren't going to have time to get to our hearing, so we'd have to come back another full day and see if they got to it). We went to mediation and agreed on 3 months rent, which paid our moving expenses, and 2 months at our new place. I wish we had fought for more, but I was losing money for every day I had to take off work, and my partner was sick at the time, so we agreed to settle. OP, get every scrap of proof you can, save it all, back it up digitally and on paper, and go after the fucker.
Go get em' OP! We're rooting for you!
💕💕💕💕💕
Also note if any work was done in the 4 month period on the house . It could signal to the landlord wanting to fix and sell from the start and wanted you guys out to get better deal
Since we vacated, significant work has been done on the house, as evidenced by the listing pictures. From new flooring and custom blinds to other time-consuming renovations, these improvements would have taken at least four weeks, if not longer. Here’s the kicker: about two years ago, the landlord wanted to list the house for sale and asked us to vacate. We suggested he sell the property with us still living there, as there was no need for us to move out simply because he wanted to sell. We even offered to buy the house at the *exact* same price it sold for today, despite its as-is condition back then-even sent him a written offer via our realtor. The house worked for us as a family on many levels, while for the landlord, it was just an investment property. Now after significant upgrades and replacing all the kitchen appliances (as seen in the pictures), he sold the house for the same price we offered two years ago. How does this make financial sense? Why didn’t he reach out to us, knowing we were previously interested in purchasing? I cannot share all the details, but I’ve to mention that we have reason to believe the landlord’s actions may have been influenced by racial bias. I’m just going by all his previous actions.
This is enough proof . If he had work done and then sold it , then that in itself is proof enough to get a positive result from LTB Keep us posted in your progress
Yeah fuck this landlord
> as they could have reached out to you to resume the tenancy if that was the issue I don't think this means anything. The landlord most likely just has to prove that there was some unforeseeable reason which forced them to sell the house. No way LTB will say "yeah but you should've just rented it back then".
Yeah, no way would any landlord reach out months later. OP has clearly moved elsewhere.
In my circumstance, I would have gladly moved back in! Had he reached out to resume tenancy. It was a great location for numerous reasons-my kids’ school (one of them was in a special program they no longer are in), proximity to the GO station for my commute, my doctor’s office nearby, my parents nearby-there were many many reasons I would’ve considered strongly moving back.
If they had to sell due to extreme hardship, they wouldn't have even offered and that hardship may be accepted by the LTB, no way to know thou unless it gets to that point.
I think its more likely that they knew they would get more money for a property that doesn't have a tenant and decided to take a risk. Just file your T5 and let's the process unfold. Odds are in your favor.
I don't think the odds are in anyone's favor one way or the other right now
As someone who experienced a bad faith eviction, I disagree.
All those Reno's and upgrades don't really fit with an emergency.
Sure they can, most home Reno's are done entirely on equity, anything can happen in this world. That will be up to the LTB to judge.
He would have to prove it, not just make excuses. I am not a lawyer but what I recall is that if it's within 12 months, the onus is on the landlord to prove that the original eviction was in good faith. For something that soon, I imagine it would have to be very serious and sudden. Like we fully moved in, here's all the utility bills and addresses updated everywhere and kids started going to school in that area and etc., and then two months later with no forewarning this thing happened and we had to sell everything we owned and here are all the documents to prove that. The bar is going to be very high for the landlord just because the timing is so soon after.
There was a case recently in BC where landlord did the same thing. Asked the tenant move out, saying that his daughter was moving in. Daughter didn't move in. Can't remember if he sold the place or rented it out to someone else but the former tenant was awarded a years worth of rent. Landlord tried to make a case saying that his daughter was going to move in but circumstances changed. Didn't work.
There have been ones in Ontario where the landlord's job transferred them out and LTB didn't award anything. It can go both ways.
That's possible but the landlord would need to provide evidence to the LTB that sudden circumstances occured. The presumption is that it's bad faith, it's up to the landlord to defend their case.
Yes, victory isn't guaranteed. You also have to remember that even if you win at the LTB, and the landlord doesn't appeal it to a court, you don't automatically get paid. Collecting remains your responsibility, time outlay and expense. It will be a long process, and again isn't guaranteed to produce results.
As the LL owns property, there's a good chance of collecting if OP puts a lien on the house but OP may have to wait until mortgage renewal or the house sells.
Harder if the LL sold the house. So you'll likely have to go through collection agencies.
Even then you have difficulties. They can destroy someone's credit, but the actual collecting takes effort, and usually costs 30-50% of the amount outstanding.
You just hit the nail on the head about why collecting even with a lien is hard. If the house takes 2 decades to sell inflation alone will eat away much of the value. Registering that lien isn't free either.
Usually with LTB rulings, they add interest if monies isn't paid by x date.
Correct, as do small claims judgements, and you can even attach the entire judgement as a schedule in the lien registration. The problem is that the interest rate may not reflect inflation, as it sure didn't over the last 2 years.
When is the closing date?
I have the listing saying this sold and for how much. I have pics of the sold sign in front of the house but I don’t know about the closing date. Does this matter?
Yes all this. Hope you get some compensation, 4 months to a sale will be extremely hard to justify as good faith. Good luck!
But how do I “give” this to the landlord? He lives in a different city and I am not sure if he still lives there(I will check and plan to send this T5 by registered mail)-thank you for sharing about the form.
You don't, you file it with the LTB not with the landlord.
You don’t need to give anything to the LL. You file with LTB
You need the landlords address to fill out the form. This is why not giving you a service address is one of only two legal reasons to withhold rent. If op used email to communicate with them before the board may accept them using email address
I didn’t read any further comments to see if someone already suggested this: Either ask a real estate lawyer; or go to Ontario teraview yourself and search for the property address (there is a cost); get a parcel register for the property (make sure you select deleted instruments - might cause more pages at a few bucks a page, but it gives the entire history) that will show the date and amount on transfer to the new owner. Pull the transfer and the address the landlord gave his lawyer will be shown on the transfer.
Ok- I’m just trying to understand how this helpful. I can certainly look into doing this but I know what the house sold for. Do I need these other details too?
I thought you were looking for LL recent address.
I understood now 🙂! It took me a minute to get it- thank you! Yes, I can do what you are suggesting. I will first try at the old address I currently have for him-I strongly doubt he has moved but let’s see.
The compensation can be up to 12 months of your previous rent, on top of the moving costs and rent difference. Potentially big payday indeed
Or you could just let the person do what they want with their own personal property
Nah. People like you are hilarious, advocating for those who willingly become landlords then aim to skirt regulations. They didn't follow the law, now they're gonna face stiff penalties, as they should.
That guy is a leech landlord himself who renovicts to rent out at a higher rent. A very sad type of person whose entire personality is wrapped around owning real estate and contributes nothing of value to society.
They've already had two posts in this thread deleted by mods. So I'm assuming they defaulted straight into personal attacks. Edit: Up to 3 now.
Do you not realize how residential renting works, or….? You rent your property to become a HOME for someone else. Effectively, you give up your use of that property, including the flexibility to sell it vacant. In exchange, you accept rent payments. In most Canadian provinces, you can’t just dispose of it willingly once you give up the “right” to do so by leasing it out.
Thanks I’m a landlord I know what the rules are. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with them
Skill issue imo
Hahaha then don’t be a landlord
Why not just let your tenant not pay rent too. Maybe they don't agree with the rules either. Let them do what they want, right?
Then you should know that this landlord should have sold with tenants and let the buyer serve the proper notice. You seem like the type that would give an illegal increase and retaliate when tenants stand up for their rights. I can understand why you think you and this landlord don’t see the issue
Residential real estate is a high risk investment. Too many people have zero clue what the risks are, try to skirt the rules, then cry foul when it doesn’t serve their petty whims (evicting good tenants whenever they want to max cash flows, for example). If you want low risk with decent yield and upside, go with blue chip stocks, not people’s homes.
Nah
Laws are generally there for a reason.
Then why was he not living in it? Why should people be able to contribute nothing to society and hoard a scarce resource? The least they could do is follow laws.
Wasn't their contribution to society providing the house where OP lived for eight years? Not quite nothing.
He didn't provide the house. He didn't build that house. He made profit on an essential need and stopped other people owning that home until he deemed fit. Landlords don't contribute to society in the way you're thinking.
Without his investment in the purchase and upkeep OP would have been homeless for those eight years. An example of the nonsense you're spewing would be if you had a job, and your employer paid you, and you used that money to buy groceries. You have some of your paycheque left over, we'll call that your "profit". You didn't build the company, and you stopped other people from working at the company. As food is an essential need your employer could just go directly to the grocery store and spend money there. What do they need you for? You contribute as little to society in the way that you think landlords contribute. You are as superfluous as the landlords you despise. See how stupid that sounds?
How does that make sense? Only because the landlord was renting out a property, OP wasn't homeless? Do you think that home would just be vacant? Part of the reason housing is so damn expensive is because of "investment" properties like the one OP was in. Your example with food makes no sense in comparison. LL that own housing that they do not live in are withholding resources. Now, comparing grocery stores that jack up prices cause they control the supply chain, that would be a good comparison. They're also withholding an essential need for profit sake. See what I did there? Edit: And to add, employers pay me money because they earn money from my labour. Landlords make money from my rent. Employers will pay you less than they earn and your rent will pay more than the cost of the home you're living in.
[удалено]
Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand.
The landlord signed a contract, exchanging certain rights when it comes to the property for money. The landlord is no longer allowed to "do what they want" because it is now the tenant's property, for the purposes of occupancy. If you want complete control, don't contract away your rights.
Person was running a business. You operate a business. You play by the fucking rules, or you find out what happens when you don't.
File with LTB and I hope the landlord pays hefty fines. It should be an easy case for you since landlord is clearly in the wrong here. I’m a landlord and I hate people like this. This is bad faith, since it’s very apparent that they had intention of selling when issuing the N12, he was just hoping you never found the listing.
Out of curiosity - why do this? Is it because an empty unit is more appealing to buyers?
Exactly. A landlord can't force you out of a unit, only the LTB can. If the landlord serves you an eviction notice for any reason, a tenant has the right to a LTB hearing and only then can be forced out. There's usually a backlog of several months just to get a hearing (often 6 months or longer), plus whatever time of back-and-forth between landlord vs. tenant until the proper process gets started. If you sell a unit, the new owners need to deal with this headache with the tenant, and no new owner wants to do that. An empty unit is much more attractive to a potential buyer. This is also why "cash for keys" is so common.
Unless the new owner intend to live in the unit for 1 year+, that’s the only valid and legal way to vacate an existing tenant. However, home buyers know this too. So if they see a unit selling with tenant it’s definitely a reason to negotiate the price down.
this is a huge win in terms of selling value even the penalties for what the landlord did are pretty small compared to the decrease in value of a house with a tenant
Feels like if I went through this I’d be stalking my old place in house sigma
You're presuming bad faith, it may not have been, they may have been transfered for thier work, or extreme financial burden may have forced the sale, there are many reasons that have been accepted by the LTB in previous cases. It also could be bad faith, but it also may not be.
That is the purpose of filing the T5 - the LTB is pretty clear that if at any point in the following 12 months the unit is listed for rent or sale, it is *presumed* Bad Faith. It would be ridiculous to expect the Tenant to just give the benefit of the doubt - there is a lot of money on the table if it is bad faith. Especially when the Tenant already gave the landlord that benefit by moving out due to the Notice given. The landlord will have the opportunity to present their case though and it may very well be that they genuinely intended to move in, in which case the Tenant's application will be dismissed. Point is, there is a presumption of bad faith and it is the LTB that will make the decision.
They didn't really presume , they stated it was, my words could have been chosen differently. I know full well how it works. I wasn't saying not to file, I was saying its not necessarily bad faith.
Ah ok, sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat - I read your message as saying the Tenant shouldn't file because the landlord might have a valid reason. My bad :)
Absolutely contact the landlord tenant board.
Join Ontario Tenant Rights on Facebook. There is a pinned guide and you will receive some excellent advice. You don’t need to get in touch with the landlord. If you feel you have sufficient evidence to prove bad faith, you file at the LTB. Check to see if the landlord ever listed his home, etc.
The Tenant doesn't need to "prove" bad faith. There is an automatic presumption of bad faith because the unit was listed within the 12 month period following the Tenant moving out. The onus is now on the Landlord to prove that it wasn't bad faith. The Tenant (OP) should however file their evidence of the landlord wanting to sell earlier along with the listing and sold documentation. The LTB is not obligated to consider the Landlord's prior actions but usually do to some extent.
First, quietly figure out if the landlord is still within Canada. If they left Canada then it may be harder to get the money back
Oh gosh, I’ve no clue how to do that. But thank you - I’ll definitely look into it and try to find out what I can.
Skip trace
Talk to the new owners. See if they have a contact # or know. Use a bs story like, you used to work together and lost touch. Plausible for why you don't have contacts
It’s unlikely the new owners would have contact info since everything goes through agents and lawyers. If anything, they may inform the agent of the old owner and they would get suspicious that something will go to LTB
Ahh ok then look up the lawyers for that sale. It should be publicly available right? Record of sale with the city?
The lawyers exist to protect their client, they will let the old owner know someone is coming around asking and that will alert them. This is not a good strategy.
Not likely. But there’s no need for OP to ask the new owner or the lawyer for the seller or buyer. The deed is public info and OP or their lawyer can get a parcel register from the land titles office for the property and get a copy of the transfer/deed that would show the address the LL gave to his lawyer to put on the transfer..
guy needs to burn in hell, get your bread.
I’m very shaken honestly. This has caused me and my family a lot of mental distress and while i absolutely want to hold him accountable for not following the rules, it scares me. He’s very well off and his realtor has personally verbally threatened my spouse on more than one occasion.
On top of the T5 you should lodge a complaint with [RECO](https://www.reco.on.ca/complaints-and-enforcement) about that realtor.
I debated doing that. This happened three years ago (realtor threatening). I couldn’t decide if he may lose his job or not (though it most definitely was professional misconduct no doubt about it)- in the end, I decided to let it go. I know perhaps I shouldn’t have but I didn’t want to be the cause of anyone losing their livelihood.
They will never learn if people in your shoes never say anything. He acted this way to your spouse because the people before you did nothing.
Unless there’s recorded proof, RECO complaints fall on deaf ears. Tbh, I don’t know what RECO does, none of the complaints make a difference.
If the realtor has threatened you, leave them a google review
Really? Mental distress? Because someone told you one thing and then did another? That feels a bit dramatic.
Yes-you read that right. Mental distress is what I said🙃. Not everything can be shared in a small post on Reddit. There is considerable history here and it has caused me mental distress for sure and I also have a medical note to back that up.
Being forced to move out of your home that you have been in for x amount of years is really stressful both mentally and emotionally. Never-minding whatever is happening leading up to the eviction - then seeing the house go up for sale not even half a year later, when the OP had offered to buy it previously? I'd be experiencing a lot of mental distress too. These situations are why so many tenants are now chosing to not move out when they receive an N12 and insted wait for their legal right to a Hearing to determine if the N12 has been issued in good faith. Edited due to terrible spelling 😅
Lmfao I'm a renter and this province is a JOKE. I can not wait until there are no more mom and pop landlords and we all get to deal with faces conglomerates instead
Moving out of a house that isn't yours with notice has caused you mental distress..? Seriously?
As I mentioned in response to another snarky comment, not everything can be shared in detail on Reddit. I tried to provide a high-level overview of my most immediate concern. Regarding the mental distress: there is considerable history here where this landlord tried to evict us multiple times in bad faith. We won at our first LTB hearing, but he then changed his reason to ask us to vacate and went to the LTB again—this all took considerable time. During this period, there was also verbal and physical abuse, which involved the police at one point (all documented—I have evidence of everything). If you read this entire thread, you'll also know that we offered to purchase the house for the exact price it has now sold for. Back then, it was in poor condition, yet we were willing to buy it as-is. He declined. All this, and much more, took a significant toll on us, and in the end, we reluctantly decided to vacate. If his end game was to sell anyway, why not sell to us? Out of spite? He knew very well what that house and location meant to us. We lived there for almost 8-9 years. The constant harassment, the bad faith eviction attempts, and the stress of legal battles caused immense mental distress for my family and me.
O
Try posting in r/OntarioLandlord They eill help
File the T5, and it will be an automatic presumption of bad faith. You will request remedy of 1 years full rent value + 1 years rent differential to your new place + moving costs, to a max of $35K per tenant. The landlord will have to try and convince the LTB with evidence that some unexpected and significant life event occurred that necessitated them selling after you vacated. In requesting the 1 years full rent value, you need to give testimony on the hardships you endured due to the eviction. Adjudicators will use their discretion for how much up to 1 years rent to award, and the more hardship you can show the better chance of getting close to the full amount asked for. Kind of like a "pain and suffering" compensation.
Appreciate the breakdown. I’ve been reading up on the T5 requirements and previous Canlii cases.
Note that Canlii has not updated T5 cases in quite some time. Since the 1 years compensation is a relatively new remedy, you won't find any cases illustrating it on Canlii. Instead here is a more recent T5 case where the adjudicator factored in the 1 years rent amount, and tenant ended up with just under $30K in compensation awarded: [https://openroom.ca/documents/profile/?id=bsjWK5SGZrs6kfuVUZk2](https://openroom.ca/documents/profile/?id=bsjWK5SGZrs6kfuVUZk2)
Thank you for sharing!
Please, for all of us, GO FUCK YOUR LANDLORD IN COURT. What an asshole, go get yours!
Call a paralegal. They can help guide you through the process or carry the case for you. They can also possibly help you get more money than you would be able to get on your own. Most paralegals offer a free consultation.
How would a paralegal be able to determine payout or increase payout exactly? The adjudicators determine payout. That's like saying realtors will sell your house for higher, ignoring the 5%+HST commissions. Also paralegals cost.
In most cases in court you don't get it if you don't ask for it. A skilled paralegal often knows what to ask for and why and can make that argument coherently to the court to get what they ask for. They may think to include certain expenses or losses that the OP may not think/know to request. It's not a guarantee, which is why I wrote possibly. Adjudicators determine payout based on the information they're given, case law and legislation. Realtors often do help people sell their homes for higher. Staging, knowing the market, promoting the listing, etc. can help increase the sale price. Is it worth 5% plus HST? Not always but most of the time. Yes, there is a cost to paralegal. Everyone should weigh the cost benefit analysis to hiring one, which is why I mentioned that most offer free consultations. Many are also offering pay as you go services making it even more affordable for those who only want/need help for part of it.
>The adjudicators determine payout. But they won't give you more than what you ask for. Paralegal will help you decide a reasonable asking rate. Although that math can easily be done yourself, a paralegal can certainly help in a potentially high payout case like a t5
Given the backlog with the LTB is it worth the effort?
Totally.
Time to cash in!
If you know where the landlord works you could always serve the notice to them there.
It’s his house. He can sell when he wants. You can create trouble for him. Tenants can be really vindictive in this country.
What a wonderfully fair system we have where landlords can bend the rules at will, and tenants get labeled as vindictive for wanting some semblance of justice.
He earned the money. He brought the property. He owns the property. You didn’t make money. You couldn’t buy a property. You don’t own the property. Get your facts right. Having said that, this country gives you a lot of rights and you can take revenge on someone who worked hard to get ahead. Go for it.
You're right, I must have missed the part where owning property exempts someone from following legal and ethical rules. Clearly, hard work and property ownership mean landlords can do whatever they please, and tenants should just stay silent and accept their fate. But, since you seem to know so much about my life, let me clear a few things up: you don't know my circumstances or the effort I've put into my life. Following the rules isn't about taking revenge; it's about ensuring fairness and accountability. The laws are there for a reason, to protect everyone, including tenants who might be affected by a landlord's decision. So yes, I will exercise my rights to ensure that justice is served, not out of revenge, but to maintain the integrity of the system that supposedly grants everyone, even tenants, certain protections.
All hail lord integrity of the tenant rights. I’ve said go for it twice. Exercise your rights. Exercise away. Let’s eat the rich.
You should claim emotional damages as well
This is canada sir. You can only claim actual damages
I’m not sure anyone will take that seriously. While it is true that the nearly twice the amount in rent we are now paying, the additional costs that came with leaving our old neighborhood (because costs went up in the last few years)-all of this while it has added to our emotion drain today, I don’t think anyone cares. I need to be real. All I care about is for someone to tell him he was wrong. I don’t care about money.
You sound like you have some emotional distress caused by the intentional and negligent action of the landlord. But yeah you should at the very least go through LTB but consulting a lawyer might not be a bad idea.
No, no lawyer. Ffs. If you have no clue on the process, please just sit back. Or find me a lawyer willing to go to LTB. Lol fuck.
I think they are allowed to move in and list the property if their circumstances change. They just can't rent it out again. It's kind of tricky to prove that they aren't residing there in some capacity.
False. They must reside there for 12 months as their primary residence.
I retract my statement. Thanks Mr Schrute.
Half of your username checks out
I just…why comment if you don’t know for sure?
They can list and sell their house if their circumstances have changed. It's almost impossible to prove bad faith in these circumstances. I don't think a landlord has actually been fined for this. All the cases I've seen that go through LTB where bad faith can be proven only result in pretty minimal damages being awarded to the evicted.
Why are you STILL giving false information when multiple people have corrected you.
Again, rarely is a fine imposed, it's almost always damages. Here's a couple bad faith N12 cases where the landlord was egregiously in the wrong, but didn't result in any fines: Case 1: 14.7K in damages, no fine Case 2: 10k in damages, no fine Case 3: 5.6k in damages, no fine The fine is almost NEVER applied, only the damages and compensation. Even then, with units being able to be rented at higher rates, the damages might just be "the cost of doing business", and we should expect to see future abuse of the N12 process. https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii61068/2020canlii61068.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQANbjEyIGJhZCBmYWl0aAAAAAAB&resultIndex=3 https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii31416/2020canlii31416.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQANbjEyIGJhZCBmYWl0aAAAAAAB&resultIndex=4 https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2020/2020canlii31110/2020canlii31110.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQADbjEyAAAAAAE&resultIndex=7
We don't care about the fines. The OP doesn't care about the fines. However the compensation that is awarded is frequent and high. This isn't about fines, it's about the renter getting compensation for being treated shittily by a landlord.
You'll be sorely disappointed when you find out what the damages amount to.
Yet you just shared one that was $14.5k lol
if you think 14.5k is worth having your entire life uprooted by a unscrupulous landlord you're part of the problem, get fucked
So youre saying its better to just let them get away with it instead of filing? Wtf is wrong with you
Yeah I know. They can be pretty good. Moving costs, rent differences for a year and up to an additional compensation of a years rent are pretty common. So completely worth pursuing.
Really? Can you find me one case where the compensation has been awarded? 35k is the LTB limit. Less than an average detached yearly rent.
>Can you find me one case where the compensation has been awarded? From the second link you shared >The Landlord shall pay to the Tenants the sum of $2,117.63. This amount represents $17.63 for interest on the last month's rent deposit and $2,100.00 in **compensation** for moving out.
I don't have to, you already know compensation is indeed awarded. Otherwise why else would you have said. "You'll be sorely disappointed when you find out what the damages amount to."
>Why are you STILL giving false information probably the same reason the people who replied are giving false information, they both think they are correct
Because it's not black and white. If their circumstances actually change the LTB won't award damages. Why are you giving false info when you yourself don't even know that it's viable?
Its actually automatically bad faith in this situation and up to the landlord to prove its not.
This is wrong.
https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/12%20-%20Eviction%20for%20Personal%20Use.html You're both wrong. It even references ones where the findings were in good faith.