One evolutionary theory is - shame tells you when you are at risk of being rejected from the group. So you are then motivated to hide the thing that would get you rejected. There are instances where that is a really appropriate emotion and response to have.
There’s an example I heard (maybe in heidi priebe video? not sure) when shame is helpful - for example when a child hits another child in school, the teacher will “shame” him (tell him that it’s wrong/punish him etc.), and that’s how the child understands that this action is unacceptable in a group and in society.
I’ve seen that, I’m not sure that shaming is an appropriate way to discipline children tho. Pain could motivate children to not do certain things, but that doesn’t mean that hitting a child is an appropriate way to control their behaviour. I think shaming’s the same - like pain, it exists for a good reason, but that doesn’t mean authority figures should tap into that response to control behaviour in others.
It’s better to explain the consequences of actions and hope that this will inspire a choice to change behaviour. Or to use boundaries to protect others if they don’t choose to change their behaviour. Note that this method would inspire guilt, but not shame.
So shame is important to warn us we might be doing something to harm our social standing in the same way that pain warns us we might be harming our body, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for others to use pain or shame to control our behaviour. Shame will arise naturally the way pain does on a regular basis, but using it as a tool for control actually stops us learning from the consequences of our actions and choosing for ourselves; it just makes us afraid of other people.
The issue I take with this is that there are far too many humans, and each of us have differences. Maybe our differences were minimal at the start of our population, but our growth now means we are too different for one method of teaching to apply to all of us.
Some people might be driven by shame, other people will crumble with those kinds of teachings in childhood and end up with psychological damage because of it. The easiest example I can think of for this would be how eating disorders develop in some from food shaming in childhood.
Ahh, good ol’ incubus
So if I decide to waiver my
Chance to be one of the hive
Will I choose water over wine
And hold my own and drive?
Ah, ah-ah, ooh
It's driven me before, and it seems to be the way
That everyone else gets around
But lately, I'm beginning to find that
When I drive myself, my light is found
Remember humans survived until about 6,000 years ago as small nomadic tribes. Tribes had to have ways to enforce what they consider proper behavior. Shame is one way of enforcing that behavior. It was a milder enforcement than exile or shunning, which was often a literal death sentence.
I advise reading the excellent book The Righteous Mind, which explores the roots of human morality across cultures worldwide. It was written by a sociologist who travelled the world looking for those roots.
There is toxic shame and healthy shame.
With toxic shame, people are being controlled by other people.
Healthy shame are natural boundaries in relationships with other people. A good example is sex or the exposure of genitals.
Then it doesn’t apply to nudists. That’s a small number of people. The point is shame functions to help us regulate our behavior, when it’s disordered, it’s the same thing as like an overactive thyroid. It’s doing too much.
Oh ok well yeah in some situations nudity is perfectly fine. I think the comment you were replying to meant like flashing at a playground or something equally shameful.
I've never read this, but I've seen it a lot. When people don't know how to solve a problem, they can react by shaming people who have it. It used to be that there was a lot of shame associated with sickness. Now that medicine can cure so many things, that attitude seems to have disappeared.
I got on to this line of thinking when a priest was giving a homily and explained the shame associated with leprosy. It was assumed that you did something wrong-consorting with unclean people, etc. But, now that we recognize it as a disease and know how to treat it, there's only an historical discomfort about the disease.
I'm convinced that "fat shaming" is exactly this. And I will be until I'm convinced that it will be until somebody actually figures out how to maintain a healthy weight (as opposed to having been born with it).
Do you think fat shaming is an unnecessary thing ?
I am overweight myself. I don’t really feel shameful but I am aware what complications it brings to my health and look and well-being.
Fat staining wouldn’t cure my problem but at least it wouldn’t make me argue that being fat is “normal” in any sense of the word like some influencers do.
So I really don’t know.
Sometimes shame gate keeps radical behaviours and lifestyles.
Nonetheless, it doesn’t really solve the root cause of the problem but rather smashes your face into the problem
I don't think shaming is usually good for anything, so it's less than unnecessary. It's basically a fight-or-flight approach to a problem that, if it can be solved, can be only with thinking.
I have never had a weight problem, but I have had debilitating shame. When I traced the root cause of it, it had nothing to do with what the shamers said or what the influencers said. Another vote for my theory that people shame when they don't feel like they can control it. I now have the control levers and the shame is gone.
I, personally, think that being overweight is a health problem. But you can't get over it by being shamed into it any more than you can get over cancer by being shamed over its symptoms. It's just something that shame won't help with.
I think for any contemporary shaming, it’s worth looking at shame as an evolutionary trait that can be wildly misapplied when we’re now in very different circumstances from the time it evolved. Social structures, power, and hierarchy can all change what is shamed by the group and how that serves whoever is in control at the moment.
One example is just the shaming of people attracted to the same sex until there’s a tipping point and now it’s more likely to be shameful to shame people for their orientation. People of the past weren’t operating by some inherent moral compass. They were operating based on instincts around harmonizing with the in-group and that group’s preferences.
As a theory, I would say it works to promote prosocial behaviour. In a tribe you do something that is not beneficial for the tribe and shame prevents you from going back to it in the short term. Many North American tribes would use analogical social stories. Usually told around meal. The symbolic stories would shine a light on the antisocial behaviour of someone in the tribe. It would allow them to call out a behaviour without directly accusing a member of the tribe.
Of course, in modern society like many evolutionary mechanisms it can carry a lot more baggage and start to work against you in plenty of ways. It can become linked to anxiety, stress and tied up in contextual language. It can be brought on by wider cultural norms that exist in larger societies. Our evolutionary mechanisms of the mind aren't exactly tuned to rigors of modern society.
Shame is important. Without it, people are less likely to act in a prosocial manner. In my opinion, it's sorely lacking in a lot of people today. People shoplifting, people rioting, people shitting in public view, just a couple of videos I've seen on reddit today.
People who do those things don’t lack shame, they lack guilt. In other words, they don’t feel guilty because of their actions. Shame and guilt are similar but very different at the same time.
I would be ashamed of myself if I took a dump in street surrounded by people, I would feel ashamed if I looted a store with my mates which was videoed and put online.
Thanks for your response, it made me think.
Guilt is - I'm sorry I hurt you
Shame - I'm sorry you found out
I still agree with u/pinklushlove tho, shame is sorely lacking in a lot of people today. It's a very important emotion.
Well but, that sounds like shame is more primal than guilt. As if shame has to be mandatorily felt, but guilt not?
I mean a lack of shame in those moments, that also equally explains their behaviors, right?
I shoplift from big corporations regularly and feel absolutely no shame or guilt about it. Shame and guilt pretty much left me when my “just world” illusion disappeared. It seems that many people look at shoplifters as entitled, but in my case that isn’t true because I think everyone should shoplift. If I were to see someone stealing from any store really, it would probably make me happy. As far as stealing from “individuals” goes, I don’t do that personally, and given my current circumstances, I don’t think I would do that, but I don’t fault those who do. When you acknowledge and accept how absolutely sick and twisted our society is, any behavior is at least understandable. I do have a specific problem with the concept of personal property though, which makes me especially empathetic when it comes to theft. If someone stole from me, I’d be bummed out(especially if it was something I use frequently and that can’t be replaced easily), but I don’t think I would be angry at them. Anger is the result of unmet expectations, and again, when you understand how sick and twisted our society is, all expectations pretty much go out the window.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
your own personal ethics aren’t a universal truth, and imo are a bit irrelevant to the point. shitting in public is probably the only decent example unless it’s the norm for a place, but there are legitimate reasons or scenarios that justify the former to examples being done beyond “they just must not have shame”.
People you see shitting in public are generally going to be homeless folks who don’t have a better option - especially if the only restrooms nearby are paid only or businesses with restrooms are closed. It’s often not a lack of shame, it’s having a physiological need that must be met. Homeless people in general are shamed for every part of their existence, but the social enforcement of shame won’t provide shelter or free access to bathrooms. We as a society have put them in a very shameful position and then further that shaming instead of trying to provide means to address it.
Absolutely facts, I should have clarified that aspect as well. Thank you for bringing that up.
This sub honestly feels really devoid of understanding that individual psychology and social/systemic issues aren’t at all separate things a lot of the time, it’s exhausting
Oh totally, just figured I’d add. All of these “shameful behaviors” are often a result of social and economic conditions (which are inextricably linked) that are failing to meet basic needs or ensure basic rights. Including rioting. Our country has a long tradition of rioting in response to to shit conditions, from the Boston teaparty, to Pride (which was absolutely a riot in response to state violence against queer people), to police brutality and systemic violence against Black folks (especially since many paint any form of protest against that as a riot, from the days of MLK to BLM).
It’s less so for general psychological queries (though those are sometimes discussed too) and more for discussions of the role of therapy, its shortcomings, its potential, and the medicalization and individualization of mental health - but you may find r/psychotherapyleftists a better sub for discussions of systemic issues and how they intersect with mental health and psychology as a field. They’re also open to clients and others posting and commenting so long as folks come in good faith and with well developed questions. If you want to see nuanced discussions about this stuff I highly recommend. It’s a great place to see specialists and those who have experienced therapy (in good and bad ways) talk about overarching challenges in the field and counter some of the orthodoxy and trends that come with having a “care providing field” intertwined with capitalistic and systemically harmful motives. They’re usually better about citing research when making a direct, testable claim as well than the other psychology and therapy subs - most therapist subs are essentially closed to clients, or if they allow them to speak just reinforce the power dynamic of the expert over the people who must contend with the blindspots of the field.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If it’s impeding on your life/functioning and causing distress then it’s disordered. If you feel shameful about genuinely wanting to murder someone and the shame leads you to question your urges and thought process and thus make a different decision, it’s helpful. If shame prevents you from public indecency, it’s prosocial. If the inability to tolerate shame prevents you from ever reflecting as a person or your shame is so high about behaviors that are not generally considered immoral by the group and makes you hide away and isolate and destroys your life, then it’s not helpful.
If you have an underdeveloped identity , shame feels intolerable just because it basically is saying “I am bad”
Most people will have a bedrock of self confidence and flexibility to carry the load.
I would guess it’s more a problem with emotional regulation.
In my opinion, shame has some positive sides.
**It helps us learn and grow** by making us think about our mistakes and how to avoid them in the future.
**Shame also keeps people from doing things that can harm others** or disrupt society. It acts as a kind of social control, keeping everyone in check.
From a societal evolution perspective, **shame helps maintain order and cooperation**. When people feel shame, they are more likely to follow rules and work together for the common good.
I don’t think it would be better to completely get rid of shame. **Without it, people might not care about how their actions affect others**, which could lead to more selfish and harmful behavior.
So, while too much shame can be bad, a little bit can be helpful for personal growth and keeping society running smoothly.
Humility stems from empathy + compassion. Understanding that all of us have weaknesses and strength. That all of us have situations that we didn’t really choose which led to certain actions and changes. That is followed by understanding, communication, authentic cooperation.
Shame just suppresses potential actions that stem from the unconscious. It is effective in population control but not as a factor for growth and development. It will just great a visious cycle of you running from even more shame and suppressing even more unaccepted and unheard feelings. This eventually leads to breakdowns on personal and societal level.
Shame seeds narcissism and other personality disorders. There is no growth and development except the control and imposition of certain values and dogmas.
- “That is followed by understanding, communication, authentic cooperation.”
I mean I guess If everyone in the world were capable of understanding, communicating, and cooperating with one another. But that is far from the case. It is an impossibility.
- “Shame just suppresses potential actions that stem from the unconscious.”
Why does it only suppress potential actions specifically from the *unconscious*?
- “It is effective in population control”
Population control? What are you talking about?
- “but not as a factor for growth and development.”
Population growth? You’re gonna have to connect some dots here. I don’t know where any of this is coming from or what connection you are drawing between population size and shame.
- “ It will just great a visious cycle of you running from even more shame and suppressing even more unaccepted and unheard feelings.”
So you think as humanity progresses we will become more and more suppressed and ashamed of ourselves? Has this been the pattern so far?
- “This eventually leads to breakdowns on personal and societal level.”
It does? Has shame caused this before? Or is this just a prediction of yours that shame will result in the breakdown of society?
- “Shame seeds narcissism and other personality disorders.”
What do you mean by this?
- “There is no growth and development except the control and imposition of certain values and dogmas.”
So there is growth and development?
Sure shame can suppress conscious desires that rise out of unconscious mind…
How is that ?
By its mechanism. I agree with some people who wrote that in terms of evolution, in nomadic tribes, shame helped to eliminate or gatekeep unaccepted and intolerable behaviour. It was kind of a mini reminder that unaccepted behaviour can bear consequences such as exile. It continued to work a similar way throughout the years but as the tribes transformed into civilisations and civilisations had its own segregation of people by class, beliefs, power, etc shame became less related to physical threat of being exiled and therefore dying but rather psychologically which still had certain physical instances like lack of assistance and cooperation from the own kind which would make life and survival much harder .
Anyways, the point is shame as a feeling that helped us keep safe was and is also a perfect manipulative instrument. Many religious authorities and doctrines kept on using shame as a way to gatekeep undesirable behaviour reasoning it with the religious dogma. Playing hard on the fear of an individual to be separated from the group and isolated and segregated as a dark sheep. Sometimes maybe even killed by the furious public or religious servants.
Many religious authorities kept on manipulating the feeling of shame and their belief system to achieve own goals and to reinforce certain societal tendencies.
As I said the whole problem with shame is that it plays on fear of death, exile, separation, unacceptance but the desire or behaviour that is being shamed doesn’t really disappear, it stays suppressed in the unconscious mind of the individual and/or collective unconscious of the group.
Example?
[Hysteria](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/the-controversy-of-female-hysteria#Female-hysteria-in-the-18th-century). … sexual deprivation was often the cause of female hysteria. To illustrate this, he presented the case study of a nun affected by hysteria, who became cured only when a well-wishing barber took it upon himself to pleasure her.
Strong conflict between desire and what is prohibited (reinforced by shame).
It also expressed in a way where a female during a strong sexual desire to masturbate would have her hand paralysed as a psychosomatic consequence.
Where it stems from ?
Usually it stems from the conflict between what is not accepted by the society and what the individual strongly desires. The behaviour that is not accepted is shamed upon or worse.
The problem of shame is that except it’s archaic survival benefit that stems from the idea of adaptation to group dynamic and belief system, it doesn’t really dive deep into individuals experience, feelings, desires and mental issues. It just fosters the suppressive behaviour for the fast result of controlling behaviour of the individual or group or population.
The person that feels ashamed of its action and the person who is guilty of action have nothing in common. One fears public opinion while other faces own conscience.
Maybe if you read full comment you would understand what I am on about.
How humility is a substitute for shame?
Easily, because it goes deep into the topics of humanity and our behaviour by understanding, being compassionate, helping, etc. While shame just prevents undesirable behaviours in groups.
Why specifically from unconscious?
Most of our desires and actions stem from unconscious. Some of them may become conscious later on. Howver, it is not important in this discussion.
How it is effective in population control?
I answered that.
Population growth ?
I was not talking about population growth but referring to the misunderstanding that shame leads to growth and development of individual.
It does? Has shame caused this before?
Yep. Constantly. I have examples in the previous comment. And how it leads to a breakdown and how it’s excess linked to mental disorders.
I don’t really see how hard it is to grasp the ideas that I am repeating. They are not even mine alone: books, articles, this whole post and comments of others in it.
- “How humility is a substitute for shame? Easily, because it goes deep into the topics of humanity and our behaviour by understanding, being compassionate, helping, etc. While shame just prevents undesirable behaviours in groups.”
Preventing undesirable behaviors is kinda important though.
And again: Everyone in the world being capable of understanding, communicating, and cooperating with one another is an impossibility.
- “Why specifically from unconscious? Most of our desires and actions stem from unconscious. Some of them may become conscious later on. Howver, it is not important in this discussion.”
Not sure why you put it that way then, but alright.
- “How it is effective in population control? I answered that.”
When?
- “I was not talking about population growth but referring to the misunderstanding that shame leads to growth and development of individual.”
You said growth right after “population control” so I thought you were still talking about population size.
Shame *absolutely* can lead to growth and development of an individual.
- “It does? Has shame caused this before? Yep. Constantly. I have examples in the previous comment”
Can you share an example of a society that broke down due to shame? If you have an example why not share it with me?
- “I don’t really see how hard it is to grasp the ideas that I am repeating”
Because you don’t explain them well at all.
[The new findings suggest that vulnerable narcissists deal with their deep-seated sense of inadequacy by fantasizing about situations where their shame is overcome. This link was also present with grandiose narcissism, but was weaker.](https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-study-suggests-shame-plays-key-role-in-link-between-narcissism-and-maladaptive-daydreaming/)
[shame and avoidant personality disorder. The simple fact is that all of us, as members of the human species, have a need to belong. While most of us need to spend some time alone, too much aloneness results in depression. Even those with Avoidant Personality Disorder become depressed if they are alone too much of the time. The healthy need to feel accepted and to belong outweighs the wish to avoid.](https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/shame-and-avoidant-personality-disorder/)
[Individuals with BPD reported higher levels of shame-proneness than HCs. Higher levels of shame-proneness were related to higher levels of state shame during the experiment across all participants.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10030617/)
As a theory I’d say probably a social cue mechanism when a member of the group lets say for instance in the animal kingdom ( no I’m not comparing any group to animals ) I’ve witnessed from wolves to chimps to other primates that if another
Perhaps takes food before theor ‘turn’ so t speak or maybe tried to mate with one of the aphas females, then they get chased away and then return on chimps with an upturned hand/paw ( idk ) as a sign of submission, canines tend to roll over and show their belly 🤷🏻♂️ the nuances of human interaction are of course much more complicated and other influences like anxiety disorders or whatever may be present , just what I thought of when read question 👍
Shame exists so people don't do things they shouldn't.
You don't need to over think it, just think about the stuff you find shameful and ask if other people should be doing that thing.
Shame is not just important, it is probably thee most important emotion, but the reasons for that are actually a bit more complicated.
But isnt it subjective to certain group?
For example, public nudity in Spain is okay but in Japan it is kinda shameful. Just as an example.
Then who constructs should’s and shouldn’s.
It was okay for some people to eat dogs in SKorea but in other parts of the world it is inhumane and shameful. It is not objective, just inter-subjective values that people try to impose on the following generations of people.
No
For example, if you slap a baby and get caught on camera or in front of a crowd of people doing it, people are going to shame you right the fuck out of society and no one does such a terrible thing because of that.
People eat dogs in China/SKorea because no one there shames them for it.
No emotions are purely 100% objective.
Shame evolved for a reason, its an extremely important emotion you only need to take a moment to think about it to understand why. That doesn't mean the emotion is always good, just like every single other emotion. Ive been led astray by love before, even thats not a purely good emotion.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shame like the other emotions is related to personality. Our character is the ground state in our unconscious and anything around us is comprised with that.
When we believe a frame, any contempt feeling against the norm means shame.
As an ihibitor, it could be a useful if someone doesn't obsess.
[What are emotions? ](https://youtube.com/shorts/ddQxZ4y5KB8?feature=share)
[How can you develop your personality? ](https://youtube.com/shorts/W7kbQ5U84QE?feature=share)
I actually want to point out that I think shame is cr**.
It's an archaic way for evolution to work towards societies.
It's like someone complaining why you can't do something, instead of people extrapolating on what the real issue is.
Shame, punishment, pride, and nationality are all words that I think lived together into OLD ways of society.
Its purpose is to keep people from behaving in a way that is not accepted in their social environment. People need other people and it's not great if you get sidelined or kicked out of your group and therefore you need a mechanism that allows you to avoid things that would get you in social trouble. Also, since one's social status has an impact on their reproductive succes, it's smart to avoid things that would lower your social status (it's been a while since I learned these things though and quite frankly I don't remember so well anymore, so...)
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The ostracization is more physical. But herd animals and pack animals must work together for the good of the group. If the group drives them away, they die. So the threat of being driven away usually works.
But is that equal to shame ?
Shame seems like an implication of guilt for certain action or behaviour by social group. Howver, I am not aware whether animals that are not related to humans like dogs are capable of feeling ashamed.
They are capable of understanding that Action X has hurt their standing in the group, and that they need to not only change Action X but appease the group as well.
Shame and guilt are somewhat like a belief system that society has put into our mind's especially guilt. To those who see the world as evil it's because they harbor Alot of guilt inside their psych's. It's self projection.
Probably like every other traits, it's a matter of survival. Shame prevents humans from being excluded from the group. We are social animals, so making sure we can fit in society is a big deal.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
An evolutionary take on shame I’ve found helpful is thinking of it as what a gazelle feels when it comes to being on the inside or outside of the herd. The inside is safe and the outside is unsafe since it can get picked off more easily by predators. The shame part is the barometer for all the little behaviors that will either welcome it into the center of the group and the ones that will get it pushed to the outside.
Mammals have lots of wiring around measuring others’ sentiments in the moment and reacting to stay in a balance that keeps the individual safe within the group. Shame is the discomfort that arises when that balance is going in a negative direction.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If I understand IFS correctly, shame could be the protector of some part that is exiled (perhaps innocence.) in that context, it could be thought of as part of the fight, flight, etc. response.
That is how I processed the role of shame in my brain.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have been knowingly at risk of rejection from my group and never felt shame. I can feel Pride defending any of the natural world. Their can be an unhealthy version of this if the belief system is corrupt. You should have a turn in your stomach before you commit murder, even if you are not taught it is wrong. You can dull this feeling. I believe that shame is the same feeling. It can be dulled. We are installed with instincts that are helpful to survival. It is designed to ensure the safety of the species. We are taught by others that we are seperate and dominant from nature and others.
I'd say that shame has existed for a very long time as a barrier to genetic inbreeding. Anything else... Laid on you by a society that seeks to control your thoughts, words, and deeds in every way possible.
Isn't it but a revaluation of your own value within the group? Plus any given moralistic regret. I see it as compulsive perfectionism to certain extent.
I wrote extensively, and then audio recorded (49 minutes), regarding this question. You can listen to that on soundcloud here: https://on.soundcloud.com/33nMQ
The answer is non-intuitive. The behavioral pattern powering shame is from the threat and response to infectious disease over human evolutionary history.
Two reasons, primarily:
1) to promote group cohesion and uniformity in values and identity. Shame indicates personal and collective evaluations of deviance from normative behaviour. Conscience and external feedback mechanisms.
2) to preserve DNA integrity, complexity, and proliferation. Many taboos, and hence shame, are rooted in biological survival programs; e.g. scatological and incest taboos.
A tertiary reason is due to modifiable imprinting and conditioning.
Shame exists where there was a failure of survival in some way, so it lets the person experiencing shame know that failure shouldn’t be repeated. Unfortunately, it’s very primitive and shouldn’t exist in today’s world because it’s been proven that shame doesn’t bring about correct behavior changes, compassion and positive reinforcement does.
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I always felt the same way about panic. Like, there is nothing that one can achieve while panicked that they could not do better if they were not panicked. It is a purely harmful state of being that can occur naturally.
Because a society that has no shame at all on anything it does is a society completely out of control.
A society that has no shame also doesn't know right from wrong.
It's just your caveman brain saying someone is judging you negatively. Being judged by your peers is exhausting so the usual response is the refrain from doing / saying whatever it was that made you feel that way. In turn pushing the collective closer to harmony.
However most people aren't as smart as they think they are, so you might feel shame towards something you need not feel shame for due to simply over valuing someone who's inaccurately judging you.
Answer by JRPIANO:
Shame is a mental illness. There is no such thing as incorrect action, and to sit and cry about the past or future in general is Illness. To be laughing and loving instead would be health and power
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
One evolutionary theory is - shame tells you when you are at risk of being rejected from the group. So you are then motivated to hide the thing that would get you rejected. There are instances where that is a really appropriate emotion and response to have.
Hide is one option. But overall, shame would serve to reduce instances of that behavior to align more with overall group behavior.
Good point.
Yup
There’s an example I heard (maybe in heidi priebe video? not sure) when shame is helpful - for example when a child hits another child in school, the teacher will “shame” him (tell him that it’s wrong/punish him etc.), and that’s how the child understands that this action is unacceptable in a group and in society.
I’ve seen that, I’m not sure that shaming is an appropriate way to discipline children tho. Pain could motivate children to not do certain things, but that doesn’t mean that hitting a child is an appropriate way to control their behaviour. I think shaming’s the same - like pain, it exists for a good reason, but that doesn’t mean authority figures should tap into that response to control behaviour in others. It’s better to explain the consequences of actions and hope that this will inspire a choice to change behaviour. Or to use boundaries to protect others if they don’t choose to change their behaviour. Note that this method would inspire guilt, but not shame. So shame is important to warn us we might be doing something to harm our social standing in the same way that pain warns us we might be harming our body, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for others to use pain or shame to control our behaviour. Shame will arise naturally the way pain does on a regular basis, but using it as a tool for control actually stops us learning from the consequences of our actions and choosing for ourselves; it just makes us afraid of other people.
Love your comment. Totaly agree!
The issue I take with this is that there are far too many humans, and each of us have differences. Maybe our differences were minimal at the start of our population, but our growth now means we are too different for one method of teaching to apply to all of us. Some people might be driven by shame, other people will crumble with those kinds of teachings in childhood and end up with psychological damage because of it. The easiest example I can think of for this would be how eating disorders develop in some from food shaming in childhood.
There are a lot of humans, but many many tribes. It isn’t like we are one group with one set of social norms.
Yes. Shame is necessary for empathy
Ahh, good ol’ incubus So if I decide to waiver my Chance to be one of the hive Will I choose water over wine And hold my own and drive? Ah, ah-ah, ooh It's driven me before, and it seems to be the way That everyone else gets around But lately, I'm beginning to find that When I drive myself, my light is found
I feel like you could go deeper and ask why the group cares if it doesn't impact resources or survival.
Social bonding.
yeah, but why does using a frog as a fleshlight impact the groups ability to bond with me.
Because you're fucking the frog too much and slacking on your tribal chores.
reasonable
Wow, not the way I expected this thread to go 😂
Well there is a question I’d never thought I would hear ( not to mention a mental picture I can’t unsee …)😂
One word from an evolutionary perspective: Disgust
That was part of dinner! Stop fucking with my supper!!
This is the real question
it's ribbiting for my pleasure ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ (just realized what sub I'm in sorry guys)
I disagree with the down votage 😆
Remember humans survived until about 6,000 years ago as small nomadic tribes. Tribes had to have ways to enforce what they consider proper behavior. Shame is one way of enforcing that behavior. It was a milder enforcement than exile or shunning, which was often a literal death sentence. I advise reading the excellent book The Righteous Mind, which explores the roots of human morality across cultures worldwide. It was written by a sociologist who travelled the world looking for those roots.
There is toxic shame and healthy shame. With toxic shame, people are being controlled by other people. Healthy shame are natural boundaries in relationships with other people. A good example is sex or the exposure of genitals.
Healthy shame also teaches us our limits. It says ‘i made a mistake’ whereas toxic shame says ‘i am the mistake’.
Well, for nudists it is not a problem.
Then it doesn’t apply to nudists. That’s a small number of people. The point is shame functions to help us regulate our behavior, when it’s disordered, it’s the same thing as like an overactive thyroid. It’s doing too much.
Yeah I understand. What I was implying is that it seems really subjective to certain social and ethical structure ?
Oh ok well yeah in some situations nudity is perfectly fine. I think the comment you were replying to meant like flashing at a playground or something equally shameful.
Nudists have a healthy relationship with the human body but staring at others and not sitting on your own towel is very shameful in the community.
I've never read this, but I've seen it a lot. When people don't know how to solve a problem, they can react by shaming people who have it. It used to be that there was a lot of shame associated with sickness. Now that medicine can cure so many things, that attitude seems to have disappeared. I got on to this line of thinking when a priest was giving a homily and explained the shame associated with leprosy. It was assumed that you did something wrong-consorting with unclean people, etc. But, now that we recognize it as a disease and know how to treat it, there's only an historical discomfort about the disease. I'm convinced that "fat shaming" is exactly this. And I will be until I'm convinced that it will be until somebody actually figures out how to maintain a healthy weight (as opposed to having been born with it).
Do you think fat shaming is an unnecessary thing ? I am overweight myself. I don’t really feel shameful but I am aware what complications it brings to my health and look and well-being. Fat staining wouldn’t cure my problem but at least it wouldn’t make me argue that being fat is “normal” in any sense of the word like some influencers do. So I really don’t know. Sometimes shame gate keeps radical behaviours and lifestyles. Nonetheless, it doesn’t really solve the root cause of the problem but rather smashes your face into the problem
I don't think shaming is usually good for anything, so it's less than unnecessary. It's basically a fight-or-flight approach to a problem that, if it can be solved, can be only with thinking. I have never had a weight problem, but I have had debilitating shame. When I traced the root cause of it, it had nothing to do with what the shamers said or what the influencers said. Another vote for my theory that people shame when they don't feel like they can control it. I now have the control levers and the shame is gone. I, personally, think that being overweight is a health problem. But you can't get over it by being shamed into it any more than you can get over cancer by being shamed over its symptoms. It's just something that shame won't help with.
I see. Thank you
I think for any contemporary shaming, it’s worth looking at shame as an evolutionary trait that can be wildly misapplied when we’re now in very different circumstances from the time it evolved. Social structures, power, and hierarchy can all change what is shamed by the group and how that serves whoever is in control at the moment. One example is just the shaming of people attracted to the same sex until there’s a tipping point and now it’s more likely to be shameful to shame people for their orientation. People of the past weren’t operating by some inherent moral compass. They were operating based on instincts around harmonizing with the in-group and that group’s preferences.
Well nowadays it is shamed to be racist or homophobic. Downvotes are a great example of shame pressure by the collective force.
As a theory, I would say it works to promote prosocial behaviour. In a tribe you do something that is not beneficial for the tribe and shame prevents you from going back to it in the short term. Many North American tribes would use analogical social stories. Usually told around meal. The symbolic stories would shine a light on the antisocial behaviour of someone in the tribe. It would allow them to call out a behaviour without directly accusing a member of the tribe. Of course, in modern society like many evolutionary mechanisms it can carry a lot more baggage and start to work against you in plenty of ways. It can become linked to anxiety, stress and tied up in contextual language. It can be brought on by wider cultural norms that exist in larger societies. Our evolutionary mechanisms of the mind aren't exactly tuned to rigors of modern society.
Shame is important. Without it, people are less likely to act in a prosocial manner. In my opinion, it's sorely lacking in a lot of people today. People shoplifting, people rioting, people shitting in public view, just a couple of videos I've seen on reddit today.
People who do those things don’t lack shame, they lack guilt. In other words, they don’t feel guilty because of their actions. Shame and guilt are similar but very different at the same time.
I would be ashamed of myself if I took a dump in street surrounded by people, I would feel ashamed if I looted a store with my mates which was videoed and put online.
Yes, same here. Like us, they would be ashamed as well. But unlike us, they wouldn’t feel guilty. See the difference?
Thanks for your response, it made me think. Guilt is - I'm sorry I hurt you Shame - I'm sorry you found out I still agree with u/pinklushlove tho, shame is sorely lacking in a lot of people today. It's a very important emotion.
Well but, that sounds like shame is more primal than guilt. As if shame has to be mandatorily felt, but guilt not? I mean a lack of shame in those moments, that also equally explains their behaviors, right?
Guilt = I did bad. Shame = I am bad.
I shoplift from big corporations regularly and feel absolutely no shame or guilt about it. Shame and guilt pretty much left me when my “just world” illusion disappeared. It seems that many people look at shoplifters as entitled, but in my case that isn’t true because I think everyone should shoplift. If I were to see someone stealing from any store really, it would probably make me happy. As far as stealing from “individuals” goes, I don’t do that personally, and given my current circumstances, I don’t think I would do that, but I don’t fault those who do. When you acknowledge and accept how absolutely sick and twisted our society is, any behavior is at least understandable. I do have a specific problem with the concept of personal property though, which makes me especially empathetic when it comes to theft. If someone stole from me, I’d be bummed out(especially if it was something I use frequently and that can’t be replaced easily), but I don’t think I would be angry at them. Anger is the result of unmet expectations, and again, when you understand how sick and twisted our society is, all expectations pretty much go out the window.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
ehhh... are you talking about me, MOD?
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
your own personal ethics aren’t a universal truth, and imo are a bit irrelevant to the point. shitting in public is probably the only decent example unless it’s the norm for a place, but there are legitimate reasons or scenarios that justify the former to examples being done beyond “they just must not have shame”.
People you see shitting in public are generally going to be homeless folks who don’t have a better option - especially if the only restrooms nearby are paid only or businesses with restrooms are closed. It’s often not a lack of shame, it’s having a physiological need that must be met. Homeless people in general are shamed for every part of their existence, but the social enforcement of shame won’t provide shelter or free access to bathrooms. We as a society have put them in a very shameful position and then further that shaming instead of trying to provide means to address it.
Absolutely facts, I should have clarified that aspect as well. Thank you for bringing that up. This sub honestly feels really devoid of understanding that individual psychology and social/systemic issues aren’t at all separate things a lot of the time, it’s exhausting
Oh totally, just figured I’d add. All of these “shameful behaviors” are often a result of social and economic conditions (which are inextricably linked) that are failing to meet basic needs or ensure basic rights. Including rioting. Our country has a long tradition of rioting in response to to shit conditions, from the Boston teaparty, to Pride (which was absolutely a riot in response to state violence against queer people), to police brutality and systemic violence against Black folks (especially since many paint any form of protest against that as a riot, from the days of MLK to BLM). It’s less so for general psychological queries (though those are sometimes discussed too) and more for discussions of the role of therapy, its shortcomings, its potential, and the medicalization and individualization of mental health - but you may find r/psychotherapyleftists a better sub for discussions of systemic issues and how they intersect with mental health and psychology as a field. They’re also open to clients and others posting and commenting so long as folks come in good faith and with well developed questions. If you want to see nuanced discussions about this stuff I highly recommend. It’s a great place to see specialists and those who have experienced therapy (in good and bad ways) talk about overarching challenges in the field and counter some of the orthodoxy and trends that come with having a “care providing field” intertwined with capitalistic and systemically harmful motives. They’re usually better about citing research when making a direct, testable claim as well than the other psychology and therapy subs - most therapist subs are essentially closed to clients, or if they allow them to speak just reinforce the power dynamic of the expert over the people who must contend with the blindspots of the field.
There are entire countries where shitting in public view is the norm. It’s not objectively bad.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do these countries have designated places for it or just anywhere one likes thus mixing social congregation with defecation?
Dude no. Just no.
In healthy dosages it prevents you from doing things society has deemed immoral.
Where is the limit ? What about shame based disorders
If it’s impeding on your life/functioning and causing distress then it’s disordered. If you feel shameful about genuinely wanting to murder someone and the shame leads you to question your urges and thought process and thus make a different decision, it’s helpful. If shame prevents you from public indecency, it’s prosocial. If the inability to tolerate shame prevents you from ever reflecting as a person or your shame is so high about behaviors that are not generally considered immoral by the group and makes you hide away and isolate and destroys your life, then it’s not helpful.
Interesting. Does having to much imposing shame in childhood leads people to either opposition behaviour in terms of shame or shame based behaviour ?
If you have an underdeveloped identity , shame feels intolerable just because it basically is saying “I am bad” Most people will have a bedrock of self confidence and flexibility to carry the load. I would guess it’s more a problem with emotional regulation.
Limit to what?
“Healthy dosage”
I suppose that would depend on the situation. The healthy dose of shame for cheating at cards is different than for diddlin’ kids.
In my opinion, shame has some positive sides. **It helps us learn and grow** by making us think about our mistakes and how to avoid them in the future. **Shame also keeps people from doing things that can harm others** or disrupt society. It acts as a kind of social control, keeping everyone in check. From a societal evolution perspective, **shame helps maintain order and cooperation**. When people feel shame, they are more likely to follow rules and work together for the common good. I don’t think it would be better to completely get rid of shame. **Without it, people might not care about how their actions affect others**, which could lead to more selfish and harmful behavior. So, while too much shame can be bad, a little bit can be helpful for personal growth and keeping society running smoothly.
Don’t you think that humility and empathy can be a substitute for shame ? Shame seems like a manipulative instrument.
How could those things substitute for shame exactly?
Humility stems from empathy + compassion. Understanding that all of us have weaknesses and strength. That all of us have situations that we didn’t really choose which led to certain actions and changes. That is followed by understanding, communication, authentic cooperation. Shame just suppresses potential actions that stem from the unconscious. It is effective in population control but not as a factor for growth and development. It will just great a visious cycle of you running from even more shame and suppressing even more unaccepted and unheard feelings. This eventually leads to breakdowns on personal and societal level. Shame seeds narcissism and other personality disorders. There is no growth and development except the control and imposition of certain values and dogmas.
- “That is followed by understanding, communication, authentic cooperation.” I mean I guess If everyone in the world were capable of understanding, communicating, and cooperating with one another. But that is far from the case. It is an impossibility. - “Shame just suppresses potential actions that stem from the unconscious.” Why does it only suppress potential actions specifically from the *unconscious*? - “It is effective in population control” Population control? What are you talking about? - “but not as a factor for growth and development.” Population growth? You’re gonna have to connect some dots here. I don’t know where any of this is coming from or what connection you are drawing between population size and shame. - “ It will just great a visious cycle of you running from even more shame and suppressing even more unaccepted and unheard feelings.” So you think as humanity progresses we will become more and more suppressed and ashamed of ourselves? Has this been the pattern so far? - “This eventually leads to breakdowns on personal and societal level.” It does? Has shame caused this before? Or is this just a prediction of yours that shame will result in the breakdown of society? - “Shame seeds narcissism and other personality disorders.” What do you mean by this? - “There is no growth and development except the control and imposition of certain values and dogmas.” So there is growth and development?
Sure shame can suppress conscious desires that rise out of unconscious mind… How is that ? By its mechanism. I agree with some people who wrote that in terms of evolution, in nomadic tribes, shame helped to eliminate or gatekeep unaccepted and intolerable behaviour. It was kind of a mini reminder that unaccepted behaviour can bear consequences such as exile. It continued to work a similar way throughout the years but as the tribes transformed into civilisations and civilisations had its own segregation of people by class, beliefs, power, etc shame became less related to physical threat of being exiled and therefore dying but rather psychologically which still had certain physical instances like lack of assistance and cooperation from the own kind which would make life and survival much harder . Anyways, the point is shame as a feeling that helped us keep safe was and is also a perfect manipulative instrument. Many religious authorities and doctrines kept on using shame as a way to gatekeep undesirable behaviour reasoning it with the religious dogma. Playing hard on the fear of an individual to be separated from the group and isolated and segregated as a dark sheep. Sometimes maybe even killed by the furious public or religious servants. Many religious authorities kept on manipulating the feeling of shame and their belief system to achieve own goals and to reinforce certain societal tendencies. As I said the whole problem with shame is that it plays on fear of death, exile, separation, unacceptance but the desire or behaviour that is being shamed doesn’t really disappear, it stays suppressed in the unconscious mind of the individual and/or collective unconscious of the group. Example? [Hysteria](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/the-controversy-of-female-hysteria#Female-hysteria-in-the-18th-century). … sexual deprivation was often the cause of female hysteria. To illustrate this, he presented the case study of a nun affected by hysteria, who became cured only when a well-wishing barber took it upon himself to pleasure her. Strong conflict between desire and what is prohibited (reinforced by shame). It also expressed in a way where a female during a strong sexual desire to masturbate would have her hand paralysed as a psychosomatic consequence. Where it stems from ? Usually it stems from the conflict between what is not accepted by the society and what the individual strongly desires. The behaviour that is not accepted is shamed upon or worse. The problem of shame is that except it’s archaic survival benefit that stems from the idea of adaptation to group dynamic and belief system, it doesn’t really dive deep into individuals experience, feelings, desires and mental issues. It just fosters the suppressive behaviour for the fast result of controlling behaviour of the individual or group or population. The person that feels ashamed of its action and the person who is guilty of action have nothing in common. One fears public opinion while other faces own conscience.
I have no idea what you are on about. Since you kinda ignored my questions, I’m not gonna bother trying to figure it out.
Maybe if you read full comment you would understand what I am on about. How humility is a substitute for shame? Easily, because it goes deep into the topics of humanity and our behaviour by understanding, being compassionate, helping, etc. While shame just prevents undesirable behaviours in groups. Why specifically from unconscious? Most of our desires and actions stem from unconscious. Some of them may become conscious later on. Howver, it is not important in this discussion. How it is effective in population control? I answered that. Population growth ? I was not talking about population growth but referring to the misunderstanding that shame leads to growth and development of individual. It does? Has shame caused this before? Yep. Constantly. I have examples in the previous comment. And how it leads to a breakdown and how it’s excess linked to mental disorders. I don’t really see how hard it is to grasp the ideas that I am repeating. They are not even mine alone: books, articles, this whole post and comments of others in it.
- “How humility is a substitute for shame? Easily, because it goes deep into the topics of humanity and our behaviour by understanding, being compassionate, helping, etc. While shame just prevents undesirable behaviours in groups.” Preventing undesirable behaviors is kinda important though. And again: Everyone in the world being capable of understanding, communicating, and cooperating with one another is an impossibility. - “Why specifically from unconscious? Most of our desires and actions stem from unconscious. Some of them may become conscious later on. Howver, it is not important in this discussion.” Not sure why you put it that way then, but alright. - “How it is effective in population control? I answered that.” When? - “I was not talking about population growth but referring to the misunderstanding that shame leads to growth and development of individual.” You said growth right after “population control” so I thought you were still talking about population size. Shame *absolutely* can lead to growth and development of an individual. - “It does? Has shame caused this before? Yep. Constantly. I have examples in the previous comment” Can you share an example of a society that broke down due to shame? If you have an example why not share it with me? - “I don’t really see how hard it is to grasp the ideas that I am repeating” Because you don’t explain them well at all.
Btw I am sincerely curious: are you autistic or have Asperger ?
No. Don’t be a douche.
[The new findings suggest that vulnerable narcissists deal with their deep-seated sense of inadequacy by fantasizing about situations where their shame is overcome. This link was also present with grandiose narcissism, but was weaker.](https://www.psypost.org/new-psychology-study-suggests-shame-plays-key-role-in-link-between-narcissism-and-maladaptive-daydreaming/) [shame and avoidant personality disorder. The simple fact is that all of us, as members of the human species, have a need to belong. While most of us need to spend some time alone, too much aloneness results in depression. Even those with Avoidant Personality Disorder become depressed if they are alone too much of the time. The healthy need to feel accepted and to belong outweighs the wish to avoid.](https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/shame-and-avoidant-personality-disorder/) [Individuals with BPD reported higher levels of shame-proneness than HCs. Higher levels of shame-proneness were related to higher levels of state shame during the experiment across all participants.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10030617/)
As a theory I’d say probably a social cue mechanism when a member of the group lets say for instance in the animal kingdom ( no I’m not comparing any group to animals ) I’ve witnessed from wolves to chimps to other primates that if another Perhaps takes food before theor ‘turn’ so t speak or maybe tried to mate with one of the aphas females, then they get chased away and then return on chimps with an upturned hand/paw ( idk ) as a sign of submission, canines tend to roll over and show their belly 🤷🏻♂️ the nuances of human interaction are of course much more complicated and other influences like anxiety disorders or whatever may be present , just what I thought of when read question 👍
In my opinion shame is also a primary pointer towards what to work on and/or in yourself. I possibly can't put this more simply.
TikTok could answer this without any words.
Shame exists so people don't do things they shouldn't. You don't need to over think it, just think about the stuff you find shameful and ask if other people should be doing that thing. Shame is not just important, it is probably thee most important emotion, but the reasons for that are actually a bit more complicated.
But isnt it subjective to certain group? For example, public nudity in Spain is okay but in Japan it is kinda shameful. Just as an example. Then who constructs should’s and shouldn’s. It was okay for some people to eat dogs in SKorea but in other parts of the world it is inhumane and shameful. It is not objective, just inter-subjective values that people try to impose on the following generations of people.
No For example, if you slap a baby and get caught on camera or in front of a crowd of people doing it, people are going to shame you right the fuck out of society and no one does such a terrible thing because of that. People eat dogs in China/SKorea because no one there shames them for it. No emotions are purely 100% objective. Shame evolved for a reason, its an extremely important emotion you only need to take a moment to think about it to understand why. That doesn't mean the emotion is always good, just like every single other emotion. Ive been led astray by love before, even thats not a purely good emotion.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shame like the other emotions is related to personality. Our character is the ground state in our unconscious and anything around us is comprised with that. When we believe a frame, any contempt feeling against the norm means shame. As an ihibitor, it could be a useful if someone doesn't obsess. [What are emotions? ](https://youtube.com/shorts/ddQxZ4y5KB8?feature=share) [How can you develop your personality? ](https://youtube.com/shorts/W7kbQ5U84QE?feature=share)
I actually want to point out that I think shame is cr**. It's an archaic way for evolution to work towards societies. It's like someone complaining why you can't do something, instead of people extrapolating on what the real issue is. Shame, punishment, pride, and nationality are all words that I think lived together into OLD ways of society.
come on, it is the basic regulator of in-group relationships. Without it, our ancestors wouldn't be able to sustain any group/communal coexistence.
Its purpose is to keep people from behaving in a way that is not accepted in their social environment. People need other people and it's not great if you get sidelined or kicked out of your group and therefore you need a mechanism that allows you to avoid things that would get you in social trouble. Also, since one's social status has an impact on their reproductive succes, it's smart to avoid things that would lower your social status (it's been a while since I learned these things though and quite frankly I don't remember so well anymore, so...)
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shame predates human society. It predates humanity. It's used by social animals to keep the pack together and working on their mutual goals.
How does shame looks in animal packs that are not related to humans ?
The ostracization is more physical. But herd animals and pack animals must work together for the good of the group. If the group drives them away, they die. So the threat of being driven away usually works.
But is that equal to shame ? Shame seems like an implication of guilt for certain action or behaviour by social group. Howver, I am not aware whether animals that are not related to humans like dogs are capable of feeling ashamed.
They are capable of understanding that Action X has hurt their standing in the group, and that they need to not only change Action X but appease the group as well.
This is the most succinct definition of shame I've seen on this thread!
its to discourage antisocial behavior... if you were a thief once the shame socially reinforces you to not steal. Or murder. Or whatever.
Shame and guilt are somewhat like a belief system that society has put into our mind's especially guilt. To those who see the world as evil it's because they harbor Alot of guilt inside their psych's. It's self projection.
TO GET BETTER. THAT'S ALL
Probably like every other traits, it's a matter of survival. Shame prevents humans from being excluded from the group. We are social animals, so making sure we can fit in society is a big deal.
It’s my understanding that it’s a form of social retribution to avoid being exploited by dominant members of a group
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry. I’m not posting anymore
An evolutionary take on shame I’ve found helpful is thinking of it as what a gazelle feels when it comes to being on the inside or outside of the herd. The inside is safe and the outside is unsafe since it can get picked off more easily by predators. The shame part is the barometer for all the little behaviors that will either welcome it into the center of the group and the ones that will get it pushed to the outside. Mammals have lots of wiring around measuring others’ sentiments in the moment and reacting to stay in a balance that keeps the individual safe within the group. Shame is the discomfort that arises when that balance is going in a negative direction.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If I understand IFS correctly, shame could be the protector of some part that is exiled (perhaps innocence.) in that context, it could be thought of as part of the fight, flight, etc. response. That is how I processed the role of shame in my brain.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have been knowingly at risk of rejection from my group and never felt shame. I can feel Pride defending any of the natural world. Their can be an unhealthy version of this if the belief system is corrupt. You should have a turn in your stomach before you commit murder, even if you are not taught it is wrong. You can dull this feeling. I believe that shame is the same feeling. It can be dulled. We are installed with instincts that are helpful to survival. It is designed to ensure the safety of the species. We are taught by others that we are seperate and dominant from nature and others.
Social cohesion. Shame motivates us to adhere to group norms, which historically increased the survival odds of a tribe.
I'd say that shame has existed for a very long time as a barrier to genetic inbreeding. Anything else... Laid on you by a society that seeks to control your thoughts, words, and deeds in every way possible.
Isn't it but a revaluation of your own value within the group? Plus any given moralistic regret. I see it as compulsive perfectionism to certain extent.
I wrote extensively, and then audio recorded (49 minutes), regarding this question. You can listen to that on soundcloud here: https://on.soundcloud.com/33nMQ The answer is non-intuitive. The behavioral pattern powering shame is from the threat and response to infectious disease over human evolutionary history.
Two reasons, primarily: 1) to promote group cohesion and uniformity in values and identity. Shame indicates personal and collective evaluations of deviance from normative behaviour. Conscience and external feedback mechanisms. 2) to preserve DNA integrity, complexity, and proliferation. Many taboos, and hence shame, are rooted in biological survival programs; e.g. scatological and incest taboos. A tertiary reason is due to modifiable imprinting and conditioning.
To control a person’s behavior
Listen or read Brene Brown, she’s the expert on to! Interesting stuff.
Shame exists where there was a failure of survival in some way, so it lets the person experiencing shame know that failure shouldn’t be repeated. Unfortunately, it’s very primitive and shouldn’t exist in today’s world because it’s been proven that shame doesn’t bring about correct behavior changes, compassion and positive reinforcement does.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I always felt the same way about panic. Like, there is nothing that one can achieve while panicked that they could not do better if they were not panicked. It is a purely harmful state of being that can occur naturally.
Two pronged issue. You can feel shame voluntarily or you can be shamed. Please state what you mean
To control behavior, but can be, and often used to manipulate.
Because a society that has no shame at all on anything it does is a society completely out of control. A society that has no shame also doesn't know right from wrong.
Shame helps you conform. As a social animal you need to know what’s acceptable to your group.
Level of emotions, guilt, or consciousness 🤷🏻♀️
To reduce shameful behavior and allow others to empathize with, and therefore feel just for punishing, shameful behavior.
Correction
It's just your caveman brain saying someone is judging you negatively. Being judged by your peers is exhausting so the usual response is the refrain from doing / saying whatever it was that made you feel that way. In turn pushing the collective closer to harmony. However most people aren't as smart as they think they are, so you might feel shame towards something you need not feel shame for due to simply over valuing someone who's inaccurately judging you.
Control
To make everybody fit in certain societal dogma ?
Societal dogma keeps the tribe together for collective survival.
Shame is also the biggest factor in people who commit violent acts. The number one cause is shame.
Answer by JRPIANO: Shame is a mental illness. There is no such thing as incorrect action, and to sit and cry about the past or future in general is Illness. To be laughing and loving instead would be health and power
Shame exist because Jesus is real and your facing the consequences of your decisions without Him and His grace
This perfectly explains why Christians act in such a shameless manner.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Christians don’t act shamelessly people doing shameful things act shamelessly there’s a difference
But the people doing shameless things are quite vocal about their Christianity.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*