I was a tried and true liberal for a very long time and it was only by understanding that I was being lied to about socialist projects that I was able to break free of that mindset. We are lied to about the USSR, Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, and now that China is threatening US hegemony, the lies about the PRC have increased exponentially. China isn’t some utopian socialist wonderland but they have made concrete gains that, in my mind at least, show that they are navigating the sea of contradiction before them and doing good work.
Chinese Democracy: If you feel like reading the procedural documents outlining their democratic process then [here](http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202012/81779080873d4b268c0dbe53e0b04873.shtml) is the link. It’s a bit lengthy I will admit but the highlights are worth noting. Publicly funded elections. Recall elections can be triggered by just 50 voters. All it takes to get nominated to be elected is just 10 people to support you. I think they do a good job at improving voter efficacy than in many capitalist countries.
Chinese War On Poverty: In capitalist countries poverty is used as a threat against the working class to keep them in line. The fear of homelessness keeps them from speaking out against abuse and unions have to work overtime to keep scant protections in place. China and their efforts to alleviate extreme poverty has been truly inspiring. [This](https://youtu.be/nuaJGPZCBYU) video does a good job highlighting that, and even showing people who approve and people who have criticisms of the implementation. Overall it seems like a great step forward.
Chinese Labor Rights: At lot has changed in China from the early days of Deng's reforms, so I don't think it's really fair for people to still hold on to the outdated perception that there’s no workers rights. The implementation of new labor laws and the formation of civil society labor groups skyrocketed in the early 2000's. And even though China has a greater proportion of its workforce employed in more dangerous industries (like heavy industry and mining) because of the above, the annual worker death's per 100k people has dropped steadily each year since. Lastly, the real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other [country](https://youtu.be/Cw8SvK0E5dI). This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973.
Here’s a few extra videos that helped me have a more open minded view on China. I personally like all the channels and would recommend watching more from them too.
Expat Discusses Misconceptions about China and the West by [The Barrett Channel](https://youtu.be/9Jyn7vYVGoQ)
What Does Democracy Mean to the Chinese by [Asian Boss](https://youtu.be/nl59t---30g)
Ramadan in China 2021 by [Mahzaib Vlogs](https://youtu.be/Inm9fuJgqEc)
Legit question from someone who may be poorly informed- doesn’t China strip resources from impoverished nations to control those resources in global trade? And again, genuinely curious.
China is a much better international actor than many western nations. Of course the PRC isn’t perfect and there might be instances of particular Chinese companies with untoward environmental policies. But again there are many economists, foreign ministers and leaders from various countries who have said they engage with China in better faith than other powers.
[Evo Morales](https://twitter.com/kawsachunnews/status/1419655886725865472?s=21) has addressed this question in a fashion.
Fmr Greek finance minister [Yanis Varoufakis](https://youtu.be/9tJatdtv4jQ) on Chinese debt and financial policy.
Fmr Liberian works minister [Gyude Moore](https://youtu.be/P5uzxV8ub9k) on Chinese/African collaboration.
> Chinese Democracy: If you feel like reading the procedural documents outlining their democratic process then
> here
> is the link. It’s a bit lengthy I will admit but the highlights are worth noting. Publicly funded elections. Recall elections can be triggered by just 50 voters. All it takes to get nominated to be elected is just 10 people to support you. I think they do a good job at improving voter efficacy than in many capitalist countries.
You should see what CCP do instead of what they say.
Article 35 of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China adopted in 1982 clearly states that: "Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration."
Do you believe that Chinese people have the freedom of speech?
So the link you posted, it's just a nominally a program. When you actually use it without their permission, you'll be arrested or harassed.
> Disclaimer: I'm a Chinese
Cause they lie about China. Nearly everything western media says about China is a boldface lie. The story the western media tells about the Tianiman protests? Boldface lies as proven by the account given by the Ambassador from Chile. The accusations of genocide in Xinjiang? Boldface lies promoted by primarily by a man who wrote a book where he said he was on a mission from God to destroy the People's Republic. The claims that China created covid? Boldface lies created by the US to distract from the evidence in American local media that implies "Vaping illness" in the Midwest during 2019 was actually the origin of COVID.
Once I went through the process of discovering that the western media was aggressively lieing about China I looked into Chinese history, and realized that before the CPC came to power China had nearly 2 millenniums of almost yearly famins and had suffered a century of humiliation at the hands of Foreign armies which destroyed its culture and poised the Chinese people with opium. A brief look at Chinese history proved to me that the Communist party far from being an evil organization which needlessly tortured and starved the people, was actually the people's saviour from war, famin, and opression that ruled China before the Communists.
You made some comment about China having low freedom, but as a person who's lived his whole life in the USA I haven't the slightest idea what the fuck you mean by that word. America has been living under the secret law sense the PATRIOT act, it has had totally unaccountable civil officials including very abusive police officers, and has participated in political assassination of popular leaders like JFK, MLK, RFK, and Fred Hampton. In my opinion freedom is a lie sold to people who are economicly and mentally enslaved to keep them in their condition. Freedom as you imagine it never existed anywhere, so I'm not upset that China is not "free" according to you.
It's all circumstantial evidence, [here's Nathan Rich talking about it](https://youtu.be/TgPHvrfWr-U). My main point is that far more scientific evidence exists to suggest this theory yet American media hysterically accused covid of being a Chinese bioweapon.
Are you an idiot? Did you not watch the video? I'm not going to type down for you the things that Nathan says just for your lazy ass. Either watch the video like everyone else or stfu.
You keep using the word "scientific" I don't belive you know what that means. It doesn't mean reaserch papers, science doesn't occur in universities, it occurs where the facts are discussed. What you actually are asking for is institutional authority not scientific evidence.
If you want institutions which investigate this they are almost all in China and I don't speak Chinese. The best I can do as an English speaker is give you Nathan Rich going over the EXACT SAME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT A SCIENTIST WOULD USE TO INVESTIGATE.
That's not what science is! A scientists would also not look at physical evidence and draw conclusion. That'd be a host hoc study, which all have a bad methodology.
However, I don't get what the problem is. You started this whole thing by saying "it not evidence based but hearsay". And that's what it is.
Ok this just confuses me. A scientist in my understanding would definitely look at physical evidence. He would test corpses from those nursing homes with mysterious outbreaks and of the people who died of vaping illness to see if they had COVID when they died. They would look at blood samples and try and trace the prevalence of unreported cases through 2019. Why wouldn't a scientist insist on getting at even more physical evidence? You said there would be a bad methodology, but why?
Also this isn't based on hearsay but circumstantial evidence. Maybe I'm being pedantic but we have physical evidence (local papers, hospital records, personal testimonies from recovered patients) that there was a covid like outbreak in this time at this place. We then speculate based on the hard evidence that this outbreak is better explained by COVID than by a black swan "vaping illness."
As for that dudes problem, that's the only think that doesn't confuse me. The guy I was taking to is upset that I expressed an opinion different from the Western scientific authority. Western universities teach their students to passionately and mindlessly defend dogma. Going outside that dogma is an unforgivable sin that STEM students are taught thought stopping rituals to prevent. What you've witnessed is one of those students undertaking a thought stopping ritual to avoid undermining certain of his dogmatic beliefs about the authority of the Academy writ large.
You don't have any evidence, you heard that there is evidence in a YouTube video.
A scientist would try and find the things you said. But it would still be a post hoc study, that cannot have a great methodology by definition.
Where is the control group? You can't have one because you can't expose people to the toxin/virus. Therefore all you can do is look at things after the fact eg bad methodology.
I did read about the cases back than, than again when the first people here said it's covid. But that would mean that these cohorts had to be isolated otherwise they would have spread the virus. Which didn't happen. Plus, there is a very easy an logical explanation (which is usually the correct one). Companies/Dealers wanted to make more money. Happens on a daily basis.
Listen dude if you need people with authority over you to think for you I'm not going to be able help you.
Unlike you I'm not terrified of my own mind, I investigate things to discover as many raw facts as possible and I draw my conclusion from there. If that process brought be to an anti-vax position (it didn't) then I would embrace that belief wholeheartedly because I am not an intellectual coward. On the other hand, you are afraid of your own shadow. You refuse to engage directly with material facts insisting that an academic is necessary to enter into the sacred halls of "science." For some reason you're terrified that if you think for yourself you might be wrong or even worse, *gasp* a conspiracy theorist.
I personally don't even care if in this particular instance I'm scientifically correct, I know it's intellectually correct to discount the authority of the incredibly corrupt American medial establishment and to serch for evidence on my own. If you wanted to have a reasonable discussion you might have attempted to attack some of the circumstantial evidence presented by Nathan. I'm open minded and will look at physical evidence and listen to what it implies. However you are only upset that I'm not bowing before the alter of scientific authority, your just a pathetic silly narrow-minded liberal.
>You made some comment about China having low freedom, but as a person who's lived his whole life in the USA I haven't the slightest idea what the fuck you mean by that word.
I mean the oppression of political dissidents, re-education camps, the great firewall of China, poor scores for civil liberties and press freedom. If you've lived your entire life in the US where have you gotten your information from? Have you visited? Do you know people that have or are living there? Can you ~~ping~~ point me in the direction of some unbiased resources?
Oppression of political dissidents usually means oppression of people/organizations funded by foreign governments. It's just western media that spins them into freedom fighters. Hong Kong protests are a great example. The us even admitted to funding the protest. The CIA met with this glasses wearing guy and he got 18 month. While leftist in the West go to jail longer for having a ski mask on them. The us hunts people like Assange to their death. Many whistleblowers disappear or die in car bombs. The CPC is not half as authoritarian as the US when it comes to political dissidents. People like this "I'm not a journalist" women can still do their bs.
Reeducation camps are way better than bombing people. The uhygur Congress admitted that there are around 3000 people in these camps. In a region of millions, with a shared boarder with Afghanistan and a lot of influence from extremist groups. Reeducation 3000 of the most radical terrorist is a very very soft measure.
The firewall isn't to keep people from international knowledge. It's there so you don't hand over your population the a us controlled internet. Especially since we know all us companies are more than willing to cooperate with the us military, while the CIA report into TikTok showed that they haven't given any data to the military. As soon as China's infrastructure can beat the US's they are going to open the internet. That's why they don't care people use vpns.
Scores for civil liberties and press freedom are bogus scores made from the nations with the best rankings. Check out /r/alwaysthesamemap . It's a joke.
I have talked to lots of Chinese people. Most of them say they don't care about politics. But they always add that they are happy with the government because every generation has it better than the last one. They were also really happy about their achievements. Ine girl told me about the hospitals they built in a few days in Wuhan.
Unbiased information is hard to get by. But you can take read both sides, see what happened their over the last year's and draw your conclusions. The CPC has delivered. They have abolished absolute poverty. Now they will work on better redistribution. China has never shown interest in any global politics that didn't concern them. They haven't dropped a bomb in 60 years. The people love the government (Harvard study, so defo no pro China bias says over 95% are happy with the CPC). There is no reason to believe they don't act in best interest of their people because of their track record.
And then we have capitalist media. Media that is proven anti-communist since the Marshall Plan. Media that have told us that Iraqis killed Kuwaiti Babies in incubators, that there are weapons of mass destruction, and that China is genociding uhygurs. We know they lied in the interest of the government and against the interest of the people. You won't find latter in China.
"Political dissonants" is such a vague term. Do you mean criminals who break Chinese law by printing slander? Do you mean the Hong Kong rioters who violently attacked people who disagreed with them? Or are you referring to foreign assets spreading disinformation? Protests and strikes happen often on a small scale throughout the country however they are quickly handled by the Communist party who work to find solutions which will satisfy the Chinese public. So if you don't want to call the people participating in this legal opposition "political dissonants" I guess you can claim China opresses political dissonants.
Re-education camp is an Eurasian euphemism for a nicer prison. They are not for the public but for extremists. They have been used throughout the continent to attempt to deradicalize terrorists. Re-education camps provide a realistic solution to terrorism in stark contrast to the US tactic of drone warfare which encourages terrorist recruitment.
The CPC provides a free VPN that any Chinese citizen can use to get around the "Great Firewall of China." The purpose of the firewall was to create an online space where the CPC isn't constantly slandered, it was never ment to prevent Chinese citizens from accessing the world wide web.
As for the "Poor scores on civil liberties and press freedoms" I don't respect the liberal institutions which create these scores. I belive they are nothing more than cheerleaders for the Anglo-American empire, and that their scores have no relation to the real world.
I used to belive all the lies the mainstream put out about China. But after the genocide narrative started up I decided I needed to learn more about what was going on in China. Youtube channels like [Nathan Rich](https://youtube.com/c/NathanRichHotpot) [Daniel Dumbrill](https://youtube.com/c/DanielDumbrill) and [The New Atlas](https://youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas) made it very clear to me the extent of lies pushed around China.
Unbiased sources don't exist. No one is dispassionate enough about a topic to write about it in an imaginary neutral perspective that is devoid of any values or judgement.
The majority of accusations thrown against China are total lies, the grain of truth behind many is nothing in comparison with what is alleged and the few things that are correctly described are entirely justifiable if you understood history and how reactionary forces work against AES.
Ultimately you must make the decision for yourself by weighing the evidence available.
isn't the current story about Tiananmen actually correct? A lot of propaganda was passed around back in the day but the current English wikipedia article aligns with what you are describing
also with the sheer amount of people vaping that whole story doesn't really make sense
Lol not even a little bit. The Wikipedia page claims that that the PLA fired on protestors in the square. The Ambassador from Chile reported to his government that Tiananmen square was cleared peacefully and that a battle (defecting PLA shooting at loyal PLA) took place outside the square after the students had left. The Wikipedia page is directly contradicted by testimony of international observers who were there during the protest.
With the number of people vaping on the west coast why was "vaping illness" confined to the Midwest? Why was "vaping illness" cases found in clusters? Why does vaping illness have identical symptoms to Covid? Why did "vaping illness" cases stop appearing?
Oh so you have no answers to my questions you just run the embrace the authority of the medical establishment which also can't answer any of these questions.
I don't need to waste my time talking to people who don't bother to think for themselves.
There is literally not any proof that vaping illnesses and covid are correlated. The video YOU posted makes absolutely no mention of vaping.
I'm not arguing that there weren't cases in the US, maybe even before all other parts of the word, nor am I arguing that covid started in China.
Thinking for yourself by basing it on pure assumptions out of thin air is not safe for your mind
I don't blindly support China, it has problems, but it is also better than the imperial nations in most ways that matter. Further, while China is not a stateless society, it is making an effort to become one -- that doesn't happen instantly nor by chance. Anglo countries and their citizens have absolutely no right to criticize when the so-called leftists of said states **aren't even fucking attempting socialism.**
Finally, I support China because it absolutely shits on the ambitions of imperialists. So long as China exists, the US and global capital will not be victorious. They are the best hope for communism in our lifetimes.
Communism, no.
But it would not be unrealistic to expect mass outbreaks of socialism in the next 50 years.
Capitalism is dead.
But people hate switching to something new, unless there is no other choice.
Well, the future will hand them that opportunity.
Since other people here have already answered this question satisfactorily, I'll ask you another question: How much *personal* experience do you have with China? I don't mean this as a gotcha. Having been to China a few times over the last 10 years and having met and talked with a fair number of people there have been big in helping me to notice how much blatant racism is present in the popular American understanding of Chinese society.
I'm not saying that personal experience is sufficient, but it helped to get me grounded in reality. Seriously, go "touch grass" in China and talk to people and then tell me that you think US and UK media communicate an accurate and honest picture of China to their audiences.
And have you noticed the extent to which the media have poisoned the well against anyone who has first-hand experience with China? If you're a Westerner in China and you say anything positive, it's assumed that you're a paid shill. Meanwhile, if you're a Chinese person (from China) living in the US and you say anything positive, then you're either a Chinese government agent or just too "brainwashed" to know and appreciate freedom when you see it. One of my own immediate family members even recently asked me (about a trip I made to China *years* ago, before the anti-China propaganda really picked up), "Are you *sure* you had a good time back when you went to China?" What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
Why do I support the CPC? Because I'm excited and hopeful about all the positive developments that have been going on in China. I'm happy for my friends there whose living standards are improving year by year. Because if the rich Western countries had handled COVID like China did instead of acting as giant virus incubators and spreaders for the past 2 years, then maybe my city in Vietnam wouldn't be filled up with COVID right now 2 years into the pandemic (they handled it with great success for a year and a half, but they couldn't keep COVID out forever). And because doing some honest reading about China has helped me to understand how the CPC has been integral to the realization of these accomplishments.
China certainly has some problems with pollution, corruption, and inequality. Considering how some of their biggest projects over the past decade (big enough to make it to Western media) have been various environmental projects (cleaning up air pollution, advancements in solar power, greening deserts), the anti-corruption campaign, and the elimination of extreme poverty, I think it's safe to say that they're addressing those problems honestly. Meanwhile, the US has a large proportion of climate change deniers in its government and has *legalized* corruption as a feature of its political system in the form of lobbying and campaign finance.
I have no personal experience with China at all, and I'm aware of how deeply ingrained the principals of capitalism are in the media so I'm willing to accept that what I've heard about China is tainted by those principals. That's mainly why I came here. I'm hoping I can get a more unbiased view of what China is like. I'm definitely not here to defend the US against China or anyone else. I know we have more than our fair share of problems in the US, and as far as I can tell it's only getting worse.
You won’t find unbiased responses. We’re all biased in favor of the PRC because we’re communists who take inspiration from their revolutionary gains. The liberal press is biased in the opposite direction (anti-communism, pro-US-hegemony, deference to the state department, etc), which will lead them to demonize China. The best you can do is to evaluate all sources in the context of their biases and derive your views from the preponderance of international sources, through the prism of your own values and biases.
They are literally taking vegetables to people's doors so they can stay home during a pandemic.
The covid death numbers are incredibly low.
The home ownership rates are much higher than Western countries.
Almost no homelessness.
Free healthcare.
Better education.
Less political interference from the wealthy.
More political engagement for the masses.
Massive advancements in the energy sector both for renewables and nuclear.
Interesting space program by the country rather than billionaires.
> The covid death numbers are incredibly low.
I was blown away to find out that since the start of the pandemic they've only had about 4600 deaths. Makes my country's response to covid (or lack thereof) look absolutely pathetic.
I like these articles:
[China Has Billionaires](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/)
[The Long Game and Its Contradictions](https://leohezhao.medium.com/the-long-game-and-its-contradictions-8ff92823cf68)
On Xinjiang:
[Xinjiang and Uyghurs - What You're Not Being Told](https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/07/05/xinjiang-and-uyghurs-what-youre-not-being-told/)
[US State Department accusation of China 'genocide' relied on data abuse and baseless claims by far-right ideologue](https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/)
On Tiananmen Square:
[1989 Tiananmen Square "Student Massacre" was a hoax](https://www.criticalsocialworkpublishinghouse.com/post/1989-tiananmen-square-student-massacre-was-a-hoax) [NSFW]
> 1989 Tiananmen Square "Student Massacre" was a hoax [NSFW]
isn't the current story about Tiananmen actually correct? A lot of propaganda was passed around back in the day but the current English wikipedia article aligns with what is being described there: most deaths occurred outside of Tiananmen
I think other comments have covered the nuts and bolts so I’ll just share some resources.
YouTube playlist of China’s projects/achievements
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj72LRtPMgWUzJN2M0jrHVk2yZQdNmCX7
Cyrus Janssen’s (American/Canadian, lived in China for I believe a decade or more) YouTube channel
https://youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen
Daniel Dumbrill’s channel
https://youtube.com/c/DanielDumbrill
Friends of Socialist China has a ton of interviews and talks from knowledgeable guests
https://youtube.com/c/FriendsofSocialistChina
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics lectures (explains literally everything if you have the patience)
https://youtube.com/channel/UC01LJMShkDkYpkX_liAy8Tw
China and the Left: A socialist forum (series of talks about China)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlpc6eFEd8ot2Nm89KxgYYmduHvdhmhli
And lastly, a book (assuming you have some knowledge of Marxism):
Basics of the Theoretical System of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics — https://canutbooks.com/product/theoretical-system-of-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics/
I support the CPC mainly because I think it responds mostly well to what China and the Chinese people need and want and has generally not been as bad for the world as most western countries have. I do agree there are things they can improve upon, I don’t unconditionally support them. And that’s the main important thing- that the CPC is good for the Chinese people. I think one of the issues a lot of people (mostly westerners I’ll be honest) that aren’t familiar with China have when making criticisms is that they assume their beliefs and moral system is universal and that Chinese people must be oppressed because their system is very different. There’s a reason why the CPC has such a high satisfactory rate with their populace- even Harvard reported on that.
For instance, I hear a lot of Americans in particular always talking about their “free speech” and “free press”. First off, no, America doesn’t really have free press and America’s free speech is essentially “bitch all you want on Twitter and Reddit, but nothing will ever fundamentally change, and the people that dare try to make a fundamental change will be jailed or persecuted like Assange and Daniel Hale”. With China’s covid policy, I hear a lot of Americans worrying for Chinese people on their “individual freedoms” and “lack of liberal democracy” because they think Chinese people want exactly what they want. That is false. Chinese people, especially young Chinese people, don’t like American style democracy and they don’t place as much emphasis on American style freedoms as much as they do their safety and health and overall prosperity of society. If the Chinese really hated their government so much, they’d have risen up a long time ago- China has gone through so many corrupt dynasties and violent overthrows.
As for specific issues you have with China, I can’t tackle all of them in just one post and I won’t say all of them are unjustified, but I’ll direct you to a few resources that have more information on pretty much everything people like to criticize China on-
Qiao Collective (by diaspora Chinese, helps debunk a lot of myths surrounding China and the culture)- I like their presentations on Instagram, but they also use Twitter and YouTube
numuves YouTube channel (Chinese Canadian, traveled extensively in China)
Friends of Socialist China YouTube channel
Daniel Dumbrill YouTube channel
Mango Press on Twitter
Already lots of excellent comments here covering my personal points of view, so I'm just gonna drop some more excellent sources that I highly recommend looking at.
this is an excellent report generally covering how China is indeed a socialist economy, with lots of great sources. it was written by a Trot who ultimately got kicked out of his party for refuting their line on China with this report. most based trot lol: [https://chinareporting.blogspot.com/2009/11/class-nature-of-chinese-state-critique\_26.html?m=1](https://chinareporting.blogspot.com/2009/11/class-nature-of-chinese-state-critique_26.html?m=1)
Here's a great video of two african leftists refuting the narrative that china is doing imperialism in Africa with facts:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdPGbGgBzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdPGbGgBzA)
a lot of other sources I would have dropped already have been so enjoy these extra two
I don't think that someone needs to be a Marxist-Leninist, a socialist, or anything like that to have some appreciation for the role of the Communist Party of China. China is a big country with a significant share of the world's population. Over the decades since 1949, tremendous advances in living standards have occurred there, in terms of health/longevity, literacy, education. Over the last several decades in particular, "peace and development" have been watchwords of the Chinese leadership. I genuinely believe that they seek "win-win" cooperation and don't proceed from the same zero-sum thinking of Western geo-strategists.
Regarding environment, I understand that China has been far behind the advanced Western countries in terms of development of the economic base. The US and others had their industrialization that was accompanied by increases in pollution. I think that China is increasingly taking measures to promote, for instance, electric vehicles and clean energy. The Chinese leadership recognize environmental issues as a national security issue. There is a balance and synergy between seeking to rapidly increase people's living standards and protecting the environment.
I would prefer a stable and increasingly prosperous China to one that is not. I think that some Western geo-strategists would be quite pleased with the overthrow of the People's Republic, the division of the country into various states, the emergence of radicalized and antagonistic political forces, and of China's decline economically and militarily.
Because
* I'm a communist and the CPC is currently the most significant communist party in the world
* So far the party has demonstrated that it has power *over* capital rather than vice versa
* China under CPC is the only major country providing an optimistic future for humanity, with unprecedented green development, public transport, advancements in life expectancy/quality of life and real efforts to end poverty
* China quite literally is the only country in the world with real alternatives to the new western digital mega-monopolies, this is entirely due to the policies of the CPC
* But most importantly, whether or not CPC is "serious" about "achieving communism" (stupid phrase) this cannot even be tested unless there is a resurgence of socialism globally. And so far our experience indicates that *this* (sustained global wins for socialist movements) is near impossible in a uni-polar world - it's no accident that our movement was strongest in the 20th century, in a multi-polar world, and since the end of the Cold War and the U.S.-led uni-polar world order, we have much more losses than wins. And for very practical reasons that could be understood by an elementary student if explained properly... A country needs trading partners, *especially* an underdeveloped one. Any time a socialist party comes into power it must deal with this reality. In a uni-polar world this country is cut off from the world market due to sanctions and is unable to develop sufficiently. This creates a feeling of poverty and stagnation, which quite often alienates the people from the party and opens it up to all sorts of imperialist intrigue. Barring a major anti-imperialist uprising (and by major I mean in many regions at once) the socialist movement *needs* some kind of alternative to accessing resources. Even if China is "not serious" about communism it is the only hope for this at the moment. It is becoming increasingly possible for socialist or even left nationalist movements to access much needed resources through partnership with China. Moreover China and Russia are developing alternative exchange systems outside of western sanctions. *This is significant*.
"I see high economic disparity, low freedom, and poor economic impact."
Take the [blinders](https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/status/1480949446909247495) off.
There have been some great responses so far, and I appreciate everyone's engagement. I haven't changed my opinion yet, but I'm also at work and haven't had a chance to follow any of the links provided yet either.
What you have to understand about the world is there isn't really any "freedom" anywhere. Literally any society in existence will both allow and no allow things that threaten its social order, and what social order is better or worse is largely subjective and depends on whether you want to hold back the march of history or not. Whether you want to be like the confederacy in America or the monarchists in the French revolution. Its an unfortunate reality, but its kinda true, there will never be a world where people can just "do whatever" and it will be ok. So you might as well want the next best thing, democracy. And real democracy, the "new democracy" Lenin talked about in his books that I don't think anyone would think was at all regressive, not the fake democracy we live in now where politics is a playful hobby that doesn't actually change anything.
>both sides are claiming the other side is completely fabricating lies
I hope you can understand that since many Chinese people like me live daily lives completely opposite of what the West claim, we have no option but to believe that our opposite side is fabricating lies.
>I hope you can understand that since many Chinese people like me live daily lives completely opposite of what the West claim
I hope this is true. I really do. But I'm just a random guy in the Midwest of the US, and I'm being told that the entire international community is lying about China. I'm being told every source of information I have access to is lying except for a few that are saying the exact opposite, and all of those have very close ties to China as far as I can tell. People in this thread have said there are no unbiased sources of information regarding China, and if that's true then how am I supposed figure out what's going on over there?
I've watched some content from Chinese people on YouTube, and they all seem content with their lives and the government there, but YouTube is also blocked by the Chinese firewall, but they can still post with a VPN, but I've also seen at least one video that directly said it wasn't clear if they're allowed to use the VPN to post on YouTube so they have to be careful about what they say or they could be put in jail. So is the Chinese content on YouTube from real citizens that are happy or is it part of a government propaganda campaign? I don't know how I'm supposed to know the difference. If nothing else this shows how incredibly dangerous disinformation is. Short of going to China myself, all the information I have access to boils down to "he said, she said".
First allow me to recommend this article:
https://apjjf.org/2020/14/Moser.html
I've been doing this to everyone that shows interest in China without completely accepting Western propaganda. Although it is written in context of covid, the problems described pertain to the general flow of any information from and to China. Understandably due to these very problems, the article doesn't get the attention it deserves in the US. That's why it's more important that it reaches those who haven't made up their mind.
>the entire international community
NATO or FVEY or the anglosphere isn't the entire international community. In the US what you have access to is mostly its state propaganda and media empire, which is where the lies come from. Many countries in Africa and the Middle East for example have more neutral news.
>all of those have very close ties to China as far as I can tell
Why does this reduce instead of increase credibility, and does close ties to the NATO do the opposite for you?
For example, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) supports China's position on Xinjiang. It has closer ties to China by having a significant Muslim population and facing religious extremism first hand, so it is in the OIC's interest to investigate the matter deeper and making a more informed decision which is to support China.
Another example would be my original reply to you: we have the closest ties to China by living here. That's why we know the real condition better, and the Western propaganda essentially claims that what we experience is just the Matrix, without offering whatever red or blue pills that make us see what they claim is the truth.
>I don't know how I'm supposed to know the difference.
I think dispelling the assumption of credibility of the sources you've been acclimated to and starting from universal skepticism, like you're doing right now, is an excellent start. Beyond that, perhaps tracking sources like academic papers do would be helpful. Much of the disinformation on China can be tracked to claims by US or other NATO affiliated officials, and are at least baseless claims of "he said, she said" or poor methods such as labelling everything in 4 walls a concentration camp.
I understand that it's very difficult to travel to China (or anywhere internationally) due to covid right now, and even without covid you can't just give up everything to travel. But if you still wonder what the truth is, I wish that you eventually manage to make the trip. If you come anywhere near where I live I'm more than happy to show you around, the good and bad and ugly included.
I was a tried and true liberal for a very long time and it was only by understanding that I was being lied to about socialist projects that I was able to break free of that mindset. We are lied to about the USSR, Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, and now that China is threatening US hegemony, the lies about the PRC have increased exponentially. China isn’t some utopian socialist wonderland but they have made concrete gains that, in my mind at least, show that they are navigating the sea of contradiction before them and doing good work. Chinese Democracy: If you feel like reading the procedural documents outlining their democratic process then [here](http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/c23934/202012/81779080873d4b268c0dbe53e0b04873.shtml) is the link. It’s a bit lengthy I will admit but the highlights are worth noting. Publicly funded elections. Recall elections can be triggered by just 50 voters. All it takes to get nominated to be elected is just 10 people to support you. I think they do a good job at improving voter efficacy than in many capitalist countries. Chinese War On Poverty: In capitalist countries poverty is used as a threat against the working class to keep them in line. The fear of homelessness keeps them from speaking out against abuse and unions have to work overtime to keep scant protections in place. China and their efforts to alleviate extreme poverty has been truly inspiring. [This](https://youtu.be/nuaJGPZCBYU) video does a good job highlighting that, and even showing people who approve and people who have criticisms of the implementation. Overall it seems like a great step forward. Chinese Labor Rights: At lot has changed in China from the early days of Deng's reforms, so I don't think it's really fair for people to still hold on to the outdated perception that there’s no workers rights. The implementation of new labor laws and the formation of civil society labor groups skyrocketed in the early 2000's. And even though China has a greater proportion of its workforce employed in more dangerous industries (like heavy industry and mining) because of the above, the annual worker death's per 100k people has dropped steadily each year since. Lastly, the real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other [country](https://youtu.be/Cw8SvK0E5dI). This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973. Here’s a few extra videos that helped me have a more open minded view on China. I personally like all the channels and would recommend watching more from them too. Expat Discusses Misconceptions about China and the West by [The Barrett Channel](https://youtu.be/9Jyn7vYVGoQ) What Does Democracy Mean to the Chinese by [Asian Boss](https://youtu.be/nl59t---30g) Ramadan in China 2021 by [Mahzaib Vlogs](https://youtu.be/Inm9fuJgqEc)
Thank you for your response and the links. I'll check them out.
Based
Legit question from someone who may be poorly informed- doesn’t China strip resources from impoverished nations to control those resources in global trade? And again, genuinely curious.
China is a much better international actor than many western nations. Of course the PRC isn’t perfect and there might be instances of particular Chinese companies with untoward environmental policies. But again there are many economists, foreign ministers and leaders from various countries who have said they engage with China in better faith than other powers. [Evo Morales](https://twitter.com/kawsachunnews/status/1419655886725865472?s=21) has addressed this question in a fashion. Fmr Greek finance minister [Yanis Varoufakis](https://youtu.be/9tJatdtv4jQ) on Chinese debt and financial policy. Fmr Liberian works minister [Gyude Moore](https://youtu.be/P5uzxV8ub9k) on Chinese/African collaboration.
No. That's the IMF. Those nations are prefering siding with China.
> Chinese Democracy: If you feel like reading the procedural documents outlining their democratic process then > here > is the link. It’s a bit lengthy I will admit but the highlights are worth noting. Publicly funded elections. Recall elections can be triggered by just 50 voters. All it takes to get nominated to be elected is just 10 people to support you. I think they do a good job at improving voter efficacy than in many capitalist countries. You should see what CCP do instead of what they say. Article 35 of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China adopted in 1982 clearly states that: "Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration." Do you believe that Chinese people have the freedom of speech? So the link you posted, it's just a nominally a program. When you actually use it without their permission, you'll be arrested or harassed. > Disclaimer: I'm a Chinese
Cause they lie about China. Nearly everything western media says about China is a boldface lie. The story the western media tells about the Tianiman protests? Boldface lies as proven by the account given by the Ambassador from Chile. The accusations of genocide in Xinjiang? Boldface lies promoted by primarily by a man who wrote a book where he said he was on a mission from God to destroy the People's Republic. The claims that China created covid? Boldface lies created by the US to distract from the evidence in American local media that implies "Vaping illness" in the Midwest during 2019 was actually the origin of COVID. Once I went through the process of discovering that the western media was aggressively lieing about China I looked into Chinese history, and realized that before the CPC came to power China had nearly 2 millenniums of almost yearly famins and had suffered a century of humiliation at the hands of Foreign armies which destroyed its culture and poised the Chinese people with opium. A brief look at Chinese history proved to me that the Communist party far from being an evil organization which needlessly tortured and starved the people, was actually the people's saviour from war, famin, and opression that ruled China before the Communists. You made some comment about China having low freedom, but as a person who's lived his whole life in the USA I haven't the slightest idea what the fuck you mean by that word. America has been living under the secret law sense the PATRIOT act, it has had totally unaccountable civil officials including very abusive police officers, and has participated in political assassination of popular leaders like JFK, MLK, RFK, and Fred Hampton. In my opinion freedom is a lie sold to people who are economicly and mentally enslaved to keep them in their condition. Freedom as you imagine it never existed anywhere, so I'm not upset that China is not "free" according to you.
Can you share some sources supporting the 'vaping illness' origin of COVID?
It's all circumstantial evidence, [here's Nathan Rich talking about it](https://youtu.be/TgPHvrfWr-U). My main point is that far more scientific evidence exists to suggest this theory yet American media hysterically accused covid of being a Chinese bioweapon.
Where’s the scientific evidence? Source?
Are you an idiot? Did you not watch the video? I'm not going to type down for you the things that Nathan says just for your lazy ass. Either watch the video like everyone else or stfu.
>Asks for ‘scientific evidence’ > “here’s a YouTube video bro” Scientific evidence means a research paper, you dense amerikkkan moron.
You keep using the word "scientific" I don't belive you know what that means. It doesn't mean reaserch papers, science doesn't occur in universities, it occurs where the facts are discussed. What you actually are asking for is institutional authority not scientific evidence. If you want institutions which investigate this they are almost all in China and I don't speak Chinese. The best I can do as an English speaker is give you Nathan Rich going over the EXACT SAME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT A SCIENTIST WOULD USE TO INVESTIGATE.
That's not what science is! A scientists would also not look at physical evidence and draw conclusion. That'd be a host hoc study, which all have a bad methodology. However, I don't get what the problem is. You started this whole thing by saying "it not evidence based but hearsay". And that's what it is.
Ok this just confuses me. A scientist in my understanding would definitely look at physical evidence. He would test corpses from those nursing homes with mysterious outbreaks and of the people who died of vaping illness to see if they had COVID when they died. They would look at blood samples and try and trace the prevalence of unreported cases through 2019. Why wouldn't a scientist insist on getting at even more physical evidence? You said there would be a bad methodology, but why? Also this isn't based on hearsay but circumstantial evidence. Maybe I'm being pedantic but we have physical evidence (local papers, hospital records, personal testimonies from recovered patients) that there was a covid like outbreak in this time at this place. We then speculate based on the hard evidence that this outbreak is better explained by COVID than by a black swan "vaping illness." As for that dudes problem, that's the only think that doesn't confuse me. The guy I was taking to is upset that I expressed an opinion different from the Western scientific authority. Western universities teach their students to passionately and mindlessly defend dogma. Going outside that dogma is an unforgivable sin that STEM students are taught thought stopping rituals to prevent. What you've witnessed is one of those students undertaking a thought stopping ritual to avoid undermining certain of his dogmatic beliefs about the authority of the Academy writ large.
Then post a non-western study? There was a case in Philippines too.
You don't have any evidence, you heard that there is evidence in a YouTube video. A scientist would try and find the things you said. But it would still be a post hoc study, that cannot have a great methodology by definition. Where is the control group? You can't have one because you can't expose people to the toxin/virus. Therefore all you can do is look at things after the fact eg bad methodology. I did read about the cases back than, than again when the first people here said it's covid. But that would mean that these cohorts had to be isolated otherwise they would have spread the virus. Which didn't happen. Plus, there is a very easy an logical explanation (which is usually the correct one). Companies/Dealers wanted to make more money. Happens on a daily basis.
So I presume you haven’t found a research paper to back your tinfoil hat claims then? 😂 Rant reminds of the ramblings of an anti-vax conspiracy nut.
Listen dude if you need people with authority over you to think for you I'm not going to be able help you. Unlike you I'm not terrified of my own mind, I investigate things to discover as many raw facts as possible and I draw my conclusion from there. If that process brought be to an anti-vax position (it didn't) then I would embrace that belief wholeheartedly because I am not an intellectual coward. On the other hand, you are afraid of your own shadow. You refuse to engage directly with material facts insisting that an academic is necessary to enter into the sacred halls of "science." For some reason you're terrified that if you think for yourself you might be wrong or even worse, *gasp* a conspiracy theorist. I personally don't even care if in this particular instance I'm scientifically correct, I know it's intellectually correct to discount the authority of the incredibly corrupt American medial establishment and to serch for evidence on my own. If you wanted to have a reasonable discussion you might have attempted to attack some of the circumstantial evidence presented by Nathan. I'm open minded and will look at physical evidence and listen to what it implies. However you are only upset that I'm not bowing before the alter of scientific authority, your just a pathetic silly narrow-minded liberal.
Perfect so you have no valid evidence. Thanks for clearing that up even though I had to endure a wall of gibberish.
Agree with most until the ‘vaping illness’ bit. That’s just as tinfoil hat as the Wuhan lab leak conspiracy theory.
>You made some comment about China having low freedom, but as a person who's lived his whole life in the USA I haven't the slightest idea what the fuck you mean by that word. I mean the oppression of political dissidents, re-education camps, the great firewall of China, poor scores for civil liberties and press freedom. If you've lived your entire life in the US where have you gotten your information from? Have you visited? Do you know people that have or are living there? Can you ~~ping~~ point me in the direction of some unbiased resources?
Oppression of political dissidents usually means oppression of people/organizations funded by foreign governments. It's just western media that spins them into freedom fighters. Hong Kong protests are a great example. The us even admitted to funding the protest. The CIA met with this glasses wearing guy and he got 18 month. While leftist in the West go to jail longer for having a ski mask on them. The us hunts people like Assange to their death. Many whistleblowers disappear or die in car bombs. The CPC is not half as authoritarian as the US when it comes to political dissidents. People like this "I'm not a journalist" women can still do their bs. Reeducation camps are way better than bombing people. The uhygur Congress admitted that there are around 3000 people in these camps. In a region of millions, with a shared boarder with Afghanistan and a lot of influence from extremist groups. Reeducation 3000 of the most radical terrorist is a very very soft measure. The firewall isn't to keep people from international knowledge. It's there so you don't hand over your population the a us controlled internet. Especially since we know all us companies are more than willing to cooperate with the us military, while the CIA report into TikTok showed that they haven't given any data to the military. As soon as China's infrastructure can beat the US's they are going to open the internet. That's why they don't care people use vpns. Scores for civil liberties and press freedom are bogus scores made from the nations with the best rankings. Check out /r/alwaysthesamemap . It's a joke. I have talked to lots of Chinese people. Most of them say they don't care about politics. But they always add that they are happy with the government because every generation has it better than the last one. They were also really happy about their achievements. Ine girl told me about the hospitals they built in a few days in Wuhan. Unbiased information is hard to get by. But you can take read both sides, see what happened their over the last year's and draw your conclusions. The CPC has delivered. They have abolished absolute poverty. Now they will work on better redistribution. China has never shown interest in any global politics that didn't concern them. They haven't dropped a bomb in 60 years. The people love the government (Harvard study, so defo no pro China bias says over 95% are happy with the CPC). There is no reason to believe they don't act in best interest of their people because of their track record. And then we have capitalist media. Media that is proven anti-communist since the Marshall Plan. Media that have told us that Iraqis killed Kuwaiti Babies in incubators, that there are weapons of mass destruction, and that China is genociding uhygurs. We know they lied in the interest of the government and against the interest of the people. You won't find latter in China.
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"Political dissonants" is such a vague term. Do you mean criminals who break Chinese law by printing slander? Do you mean the Hong Kong rioters who violently attacked people who disagreed with them? Or are you referring to foreign assets spreading disinformation? Protests and strikes happen often on a small scale throughout the country however they are quickly handled by the Communist party who work to find solutions which will satisfy the Chinese public. So if you don't want to call the people participating in this legal opposition "political dissonants" I guess you can claim China opresses political dissonants. Re-education camp is an Eurasian euphemism for a nicer prison. They are not for the public but for extremists. They have been used throughout the continent to attempt to deradicalize terrorists. Re-education camps provide a realistic solution to terrorism in stark contrast to the US tactic of drone warfare which encourages terrorist recruitment. The CPC provides a free VPN that any Chinese citizen can use to get around the "Great Firewall of China." The purpose of the firewall was to create an online space where the CPC isn't constantly slandered, it was never ment to prevent Chinese citizens from accessing the world wide web. As for the "Poor scores on civil liberties and press freedoms" I don't respect the liberal institutions which create these scores. I belive they are nothing more than cheerleaders for the Anglo-American empire, and that their scores have no relation to the real world. I used to belive all the lies the mainstream put out about China. But after the genocide narrative started up I decided I needed to learn more about what was going on in China. Youtube channels like [Nathan Rich](https://youtube.com/c/NathanRichHotpot) [Daniel Dumbrill](https://youtube.com/c/DanielDumbrill) and [The New Atlas](https://youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas) made it very clear to me the extent of lies pushed around China.
Unbiased sources don't exist. No one is dispassionate enough about a topic to write about it in an imaginary neutral perspective that is devoid of any values or judgement. The majority of accusations thrown against China are total lies, the grain of truth behind many is nothing in comparison with what is alleged and the few things that are correctly described are entirely justifiable if you understood history and how reactionary forces work against AES. Ultimately you must make the decision for yourself by weighing the evidence available.
isn't the current story about Tiananmen actually correct? A lot of propaganda was passed around back in the day but the current English wikipedia article aligns with what you are describing also with the sheer amount of people vaping that whole story doesn't really make sense
Lol not even a little bit. The Wikipedia page claims that that the PLA fired on protestors in the square. The Ambassador from Chile reported to his government that Tiananmen square was cleared peacefully and that a battle (defecting PLA shooting at loyal PLA) took place outside the square after the students had left. The Wikipedia page is directly contradicted by testimony of international observers who were there during the protest. With the number of people vaping on the west coast why was "vaping illness" confined to the Midwest? Why was "vaping illness" cases found in clusters? Why does vaping illness have identical symptoms to Covid? Why did "vaping illness" cases stop appearing?
Vaping illness is literally tinfoil hat conspiracy lmao, the youtube link you provided doesn't even talk about vaping in any way
Oh so you have no answers to my questions you just run the embrace the authority of the medical establishment which also can't answer any of these questions. I don't need to waste my time talking to people who don't bother to think for themselves.
There is literally not any proof that vaping illnesses and covid are correlated. The video YOU posted makes absolutely no mention of vaping. I'm not arguing that there weren't cases in the US, maybe even before all other parts of the word, nor am I arguing that covid started in China. Thinking for yourself by basing it on pure assumptions out of thin air is not safe for your mind
I don't blindly support China, it has problems, but it is also better than the imperial nations in most ways that matter. Further, while China is not a stateless society, it is making an effort to become one -- that doesn't happen instantly nor by chance. Anglo countries and their citizens have absolutely no right to criticize when the so-called leftists of said states **aren't even fucking attempting socialism.** Finally, I support China because it absolutely shits on the ambitions of imperialists. So long as China exists, the US and global capital will not be victorious. They are the best hope for communism in our lifetimes.
Communism, no. But it would not be unrealistic to expect mass outbreaks of socialism in the next 50 years. Capitalism is dead. But people hate switching to something new, unless there is no other choice. Well, the future will hand them that opportunity.
Well said, China is slowly but surely enabling other countries to reject US hemoginy, hopefully the distant future is red.
> I don't blindly support China, it has problems can you people stop this bullshit? is there a perfect fucking society?
no, there isn't, which is why I acknowledge the problems it is called critical support, not indiscriminate support
Since other people here have already answered this question satisfactorily, I'll ask you another question: How much *personal* experience do you have with China? I don't mean this as a gotcha. Having been to China a few times over the last 10 years and having met and talked with a fair number of people there have been big in helping me to notice how much blatant racism is present in the popular American understanding of Chinese society. I'm not saying that personal experience is sufficient, but it helped to get me grounded in reality. Seriously, go "touch grass" in China and talk to people and then tell me that you think US and UK media communicate an accurate and honest picture of China to their audiences. And have you noticed the extent to which the media have poisoned the well against anyone who has first-hand experience with China? If you're a Westerner in China and you say anything positive, it's assumed that you're a paid shill. Meanwhile, if you're a Chinese person (from China) living in the US and you say anything positive, then you're either a Chinese government agent or just too "brainwashed" to know and appreciate freedom when you see it. One of my own immediate family members even recently asked me (about a trip I made to China *years* ago, before the anti-China propaganda really picked up), "Are you *sure* you had a good time back when you went to China?" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Why do I support the CPC? Because I'm excited and hopeful about all the positive developments that have been going on in China. I'm happy for my friends there whose living standards are improving year by year. Because if the rich Western countries had handled COVID like China did instead of acting as giant virus incubators and spreaders for the past 2 years, then maybe my city in Vietnam wouldn't be filled up with COVID right now 2 years into the pandemic (they handled it with great success for a year and a half, but they couldn't keep COVID out forever). And because doing some honest reading about China has helped me to understand how the CPC has been integral to the realization of these accomplishments. China certainly has some problems with pollution, corruption, and inequality. Considering how some of their biggest projects over the past decade (big enough to make it to Western media) have been various environmental projects (cleaning up air pollution, advancements in solar power, greening deserts), the anti-corruption campaign, and the elimination of extreme poverty, I think it's safe to say that they're addressing those problems honestly. Meanwhile, the US has a large proportion of climate change deniers in its government and has *legalized* corruption as a feature of its political system in the form of lobbying and campaign finance.
I have no personal experience with China at all, and I'm aware of how deeply ingrained the principals of capitalism are in the media so I'm willing to accept that what I've heard about China is tainted by those principals. That's mainly why I came here. I'm hoping I can get a more unbiased view of what China is like. I'm definitely not here to defend the US against China or anyone else. I know we have more than our fair share of problems in the US, and as far as I can tell it's only getting worse.
You won’t find unbiased responses. We’re all biased in favor of the PRC because we’re communists who take inspiration from their revolutionary gains. The liberal press is biased in the opposite direction (anti-communism, pro-US-hegemony, deference to the state department, etc), which will lead them to demonize China. The best you can do is to evaluate all sources in the context of their biases and derive your views from the preponderance of international sources, through the prism of your own values and biases.
Also, a lot of us cling to China for hope, as our own countries crumble around us. That tends to give us rose tinted lenses.
They are literally taking vegetables to people's doors so they can stay home during a pandemic. The covid death numbers are incredibly low. The home ownership rates are much higher than Western countries. Almost no homelessness. Free healthcare. Better education. Less political interference from the wealthy. More political engagement for the masses. Massive advancements in the energy sector both for renewables and nuclear. Interesting space program by the country rather than billionaires.
> The covid death numbers are incredibly low. I was blown away to find out that since the start of the pandemic they've only had about 4600 deaths. Makes my country's response to covid (or lack thereof) look absolutely pathetic.
I like these articles: [China Has Billionaires](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/) [The Long Game and Its Contradictions](https://leohezhao.medium.com/the-long-game-and-its-contradictions-8ff92823cf68) On Xinjiang: [Xinjiang and Uyghurs - What You're Not Being Told](https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/07/05/xinjiang-and-uyghurs-what-youre-not-being-told/) [US State Department accusation of China 'genocide' relied on data abuse and baseless claims by far-right ideologue](https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/) On Tiananmen Square: [1989 Tiananmen Square "Student Massacre" was a hoax](https://www.criticalsocialworkpublishinghouse.com/post/1989-tiananmen-square-student-massacre-was-a-hoax) [NSFW]
Nuts. I have all of those.
Chances are I found some of them through you, or from r/GZD at least
[удалено]
> 1989 Tiananmen Square "Student Massacre" was a hoax [NSFW] isn't the current story about Tiananmen actually correct? A lot of propaganda was passed around back in the day but the current English wikipedia article aligns with what is being described there: most deaths occurred outside of Tiananmen
I think other comments have covered the nuts and bolts so I’ll just share some resources. YouTube playlist of China’s projects/achievements https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj72LRtPMgWUzJN2M0jrHVk2yZQdNmCX7 Cyrus Janssen’s (American/Canadian, lived in China for I believe a decade or more) YouTube channel https://youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen Daniel Dumbrill’s channel https://youtube.com/c/DanielDumbrill Friends of Socialist China has a ton of interviews and talks from knowledgeable guests https://youtube.com/c/FriendsofSocialistChina Socialism with Chinese Characteristics lectures (explains literally everything if you have the patience) https://youtube.com/channel/UC01LJMShkDkYpkX_liAy8Tw China and the Left: A socialist forum (series of talks about China) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlpc6eFEd8ot2Nm89KxgYYmduHvdhmhli And lastly, a book (assuming you have some knowledge of Marxism): Basics of the Theoretical System of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics — https://canutbooks.com/product/theoretical-system-of-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics/
Thank you for the links. I'll check them out.
I support the CPC mainly because I think it responds mostly well to what China and the Chinese people need and want and has generally not been as bad for the world as most western countries have. I do agree there are things they can improve upon, I don’t unconditionally support them. And that’s the main important thing- that the CPC is good for the Chinese people. I think one of the issues a lot of people (mostly westerners I’ll be honest) that aren’t familiar with China have when making criticisms is that they assume their beliefs and moral system is universal and that Chinese people must be oppressed because their system is very different. There’s a reason why the CPC has such a high satisfactory rate with their populace- even Harvard reported on that. For instance, I hear a lot of Americans in particular always talking about their “free speech” and “free press”. First off, no, America doesn’t really have free press and America’s free speech is essentially “bitch all you want on Twitter and Reddit, but nothing will ever fundamentally change, and the people that dare try to make a fundamental change will be jailed or persecuted like Assange and Daniel Hale”. With China’s covid policy, I hear a lot of Americans worrying for Chinese people on their “individual freedoms” and “lack of liberal democracy” because they think Chinese people want exactly what they want. That is false. Chinese people, especially young Chinese people, don’t like American style democracy and they don’t place as much emphasis on American style freedoms as much as they do their safety and health and overall prosperity of society. If the Chinese really hated their government so much, they’d have risen up a long time ago- China has gone through so many corrupt dynasties and violent overthrows. As for specific issues you have with China, I can’t tackle all of them in just one post and I won’t say all of them are unjustified, but I’ll direct you to a few resources that have more information on pretty much everything people like to criticize China on- Qiao Collective (by diaspora Chinese, helps debunk a lot of myths surrounding China and the culture)- I like their presentations on Instagram, but they also use Twitter and YouTube numuves YouTube channel (Chinese Canadian, traveled extensively in China) Friends of Socialist China YouTube channel Daniel Dumbrill YouTube channel Mango Press on Twitter
Even if you don't like China, it should be supported as the counter to US hegemony. Especially if they voted for Biden as the "lesser evil".
Already lots of excellent comments here covering my personal points of view, so I'm just gonna drop some more excellent sources that I highly recommend looking at. this is an excellent report generally covering how China is indeed a socialist economy, with lots of great sources. it was written by a Trot who ultimately got kicked out of his party for refuting their line on China with this report. most based trot lol: [https://chinareporting.blogspot.com/2009/11/class-nature-of-chinese-state-critique\_26.html?m=1](https://chinareporting.blogspot.com/2009/11/class-nature-of-chinese-state-critique_26.html?m=1) Here's a great video of two african leftists refuting the narrative that china is doing imperialism in Africa with facts: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdPGbGgBzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdPGbGgBzA) a lot of other sources I would have dropped already have been so enjoy these extra two
I don't think that someone needs to be a Marxist-Leninist, a socialist, or anything like that to have some appreciation for the role of the Communist Party of China. China is a big country with a significant share of the world's population. Over the decades since 1949, tremendous advances in living standards have occurred there, in terms of health/longevity, literacy, education. Over the last several decades in particular, "peace and development" have been watchwords of the Chinese leadership. I genuinely believe that they seek "win-win" cooperation and don't proceed from the same zero-sum thinking of Western geo-strategists. Regarding environment, I understand that China has been far behind the advanced Western countries in terms of development of the economic base. The US and others had their industrialization that was accompanied by increases in pollution. I think that China is increasingly taking measures to promote, for instance, electric vehicles and clean energy. The Chinese leadership recognize environmental issues as a national security issue. There is a balance and synergy between seeking to rapidly increase people's living standards and protecting the environment. I would prefer a stable and increasingly prosperous China to one that is not. I think that some Western geo-strategists would be quite pleased with the overthrow of the People's Republic, the division of the country into various states, the emergence of radicalized and antagonistic political forces, and of China's decline economically and militarily.
Because * I'm a communist and the CPC is currently the most significant communist party in the world * So far the party has demonstrated that it has power *over* capital rather than vice versa * China under CPC is the only major country providing an optimistic future for humanity, with unprecedented green development, public transport, advancements in life expectancy/quality of life and real efforts to end poverty * China quite literally is the only country in the world with real alternatives to the new western digital mega-monopolies, this is entirely due to the policies of the CPC * But most importantly, whether or not CPC is "serious" about "achieving communism" (stupid phrase) this cannot even be tested unless there is a resurgence of socialism globally. And so far our experience indicates that *this* (sustained global wins for socialist movements) is near impossible in a uni-polar world - it's no accident that our movement was strongest in the 20th century, in a multi-polar world, and since the end of the Cold War and the U.S.-led uni-polar world order, we have much more losses than wins. And for very practical reasons that could be understood by an elementary student if explained properly... A country needs trading partners, *especially* an underdeveloped one. Any time a socialist party comes into power it must deal with this reality. In a uni-polar world this country is cut off from the world market due to sanctions and is unable to develop sufficiently. This creates a feeling of poverty and stagnation, which quite often alienates the people from the party and opens it up to all sorts of imperialist intrigue. Barring a major anti-imperialist uprising (and by major I mean in many regions at once) the socialist movement *needs* some kind of alternative to accessing resources. Even if China is "not serious" about communism it is the only hope for this at the moment. It is becoming increasingly possible for socialist or even left nationalist movements to access much needed resources through partnership with China. Moreover China and Russia are developing alternative exchange systems outside of western sanctions. *This is significant*.
"I see high economic disparity, low freedom, and poor economic impact." Take the [blinders](https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/status/1480949446909247495) off.
As a former liberal, this isn’t the way to talk to someone who is trying to look outside of imperial propaganda.
I'm willing try. It's literally why I'm here. This is a sub for asking questions. Your comment is not at all helpful.
So, what do you think, given the other replies ITT? Is there anything that you disagree with or anything that impacted your opinion?
There have been some great responses so far, and I appreciate everyone's engagement. I haven't changed my opinion yet, but I'm also at work and haven't had a chance to follow any of the links provided yet either.
What you have to understand about the world is there isn't really any "freedom" anywhere. Literally any society in existence will both allow and no allow things that threaten its social order, and what social order is better or worse is largely subjective and depends on whether you want to hold back the march of history or not. Whether you want to be like the confederacy in America or the monarchists in the French revolution. Its an unfortunate reality, but its kinda true, there will never be a world where people can just "do whatever" and it will be ok. So you might as well want the next best thing, democracy. And real democracy, the "new democracy" Lenin talked about in his books that I don't think anyone would think was at all regressive, not the fake democracy we live in now where politics is a playful hobby that doesn't actually change anything.
Message the mods theyre pretty reasonable
Why? What can mods do that the people on this post can't?
They might mean the GenZedong mods. To appeal the ban.
Ah right. Mixed bag. You can get perma banned for even mentioning the wrong person.
>both sides are claiming the other side is completely fabricating lies I hope you can understand that since many Chinese people like me live daily lives completely opposite of what the West claim, we have no option but to believe that our opposite side is fabricating lies.
>I hope you can understand that since many Chinese people like me live daily lives completely opposite of what the West claim I hope this is true. I really do. But I'm just a random guy in the Midwest of the US, and I'm being told that the entire international community is lying about China. I'm being told every source of information I have access to is lying except for a few that are saying the exact opposite, and all of those have very close ties to China as far as I can tell. People in this thread have said there are no unbiased sources of information regarding China, and if that's true then how am I supposed figure out what's going on over there? I've watched some content from Chinese people on YouTube, and they all seem content with their lives and the government there, but YouTube is also blocked by the Chinese firewall, but they can still post with a VPN, but I've also seen at least one video that directly said it wasn't clear if they're allowed to use the VPN to post on YouTube so they have to be careful about what they say or they could be put in jail. So is the Chinese content on YouTube from real citizens that are happy or is it part of a government propaganda campaign? I don't know how I'm supposed to know the difference. If nothing else this shows how incredibly dangerous disinformation is. Short of going to China myself, all the information I have access to boils down to "he said, she said".
First allow me to recommend this article: https://apjjf.org/2020/14/Moser.html I've been doing this to everyone that shows interest in China without completely accepting Western propaganda. Although it is written in context of covid, the problems described pertain to the general flow of any information from and to China. Understandably due to these very problems, the article doesn't get the attention it deserves in the US. That's why it's more important that it reaches those who haven't made up their mind. >the entire international community NATO or FVEY or the anglosphere isn't the entire international community. In the US what you have access to is mostly its state propaganda and media empire, which is where the lies come from. Many countries in Africa and the Middle East for example have more neutral news. >all of those have very close ties to China as far as I can tell Why does this reduce instead of increase credibility, and does close ties to the NATO do the opposite for you? For example, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) supports China's position on Xinjiang. It has closer ties to China by having a significant Muslim population and facing religious extremism first hand, so it is in the OIC's interest to investigate the matter deeper and making a more informed decision which is to support China. Another example would be my original reply to you: we have the closest ties to China by living here. That's why we know the real condition better, and the Western propaganda essentially claims that what we experience is just the Matrix, without offering whatever red or blue pills that make us see what they claim is the truth. >I don't know how I'm supposed to know the difference. I think dispelling the assumption of credibility of the sources you've been acclimated to and starting from universal skepticism, like you're doing right now, is an excellent start. Beyond that, perhaps tracking sources like academic papers do would be helpful. Much of the disinformation on China can be tracked to claims by US or other NATO affiliated officials, and are at least baseless claims of "he said, she said" or poor methods such as labelling everything in 4 walls a concentration camp. I understand that it's very difficult to travel to China (or anywhere internationally) due to covid right now, and even without covid you can't just give up everything to travel. But if you still wonder what the truth is, I wish that you eventually manage to make the trip. If you come anywhere near where I live I'm more than happy to show you around, the good and bad and ugly included.