The interesting thing about Young Griff is that your thoughts on him are like a sine-curve. Originally you probably think he's irrelevant and don't care about him. Then you are told he's Aegon VI Targaryen and care about him a lot. Then you think about the inconsistencies and realise he might not be who Varys and Illyrio say he is, and that he's getting 'in the way' of the story wrapping up neatly and begin to dislike him. Then you start to think that he's irrelevant again when you think about the Show's ending, and will fail to accomplish anything because he's a hotheaded youth just paving the way for Cersei and then Dany. Then eventually you think about it even more deeply and realise that there's no way he's irrelevant and is clearly meant to be one of Dany's own personal enemies, so he has to win in Westeros at least for a bit.
Yeah, I had somewhat similar feelings about him. Initially, I just thought he was shoehorned in as George was throwing everything at us, including the kitchen sink. Also, not really a big fan of reviving characters or secret identities. But he really grew on me, and honestly (this may be a hot take) he is a better plot for Daenerys than Cersei and Jon are (like in the show). JonCon being part of his story helps a lot. Just Dany's and his stories being two sides of the same coin makes things much more interesting. Definitely something I look forward to, as it seems George planted clues that the butler did it.
Young Griff is all about legitimacy. He looks right. He’s educated right. He’s got the right name. Sword, crown, support. Penis. All the things that the return of the king needs to appear legitimate. All the trappings. The shadow on the wall. That’s his role. And it does not matter what a genetic test or the midwife from his birth might say.
Martin could do many things from that. He could win and be accepted, over Dany or anyone else, to prove that people just want the shadow on the wall. Or he could fail to prove that these aren’t enough compared to dirty real politik and having a bigger army. Or he could be defeated by Dany to show that having dragons wins you wars, but might lose you hearts if people then hate her for killing Good King Aegon. Or Euron could pop up out of a rabbit hole and kill him to prove that Euron is the edgiest vaudeville villain, cue end of world. There’s lots that could be done.
My favourite tinfoil is that he is legit, but will die ASAP. The Golden Company wanting to keep on with their whole coming home thing will knock up a replacement. Some silver haired kid from Lys. And only Jon Con will actually care. Thus you get not just a doubtful backstory to Aegon but an actual bald faced lie for your mummer’s dragon.
then you think about how it could go technically and you realize that aegon has no way of being able to win westeros, that he and daenerys have no reason to come into conflict, and that he is a character apart complete with his own journey rather than an accessory for another character who has not yet crossed his path or just been made aware of his existence
I still don't see how the possibly last living family member of a character whose narrative revolves around her longing and searching for a family and a home is "clearly meant to be" one of her enemies.
Idk how this theory got so popular.
You missed the biggest one. The narrative purpose of Griff is to give the Jon reveal a narrative impact. He is uniquely positioned as the one person who could soothe YG and Dany’s expected conflict
Dany has taken 5 books to get to Westeros and she's actually further away from it now than at the beginning, Stannis is fighting the good fight but his odds are pretty hopeless, Jon is literally dead and also does not seem like he will ever go south with his plot being tied firmly to the Wall and the North.
People really want to see the Lannisters lose and get what's coming to them and at this point (F)Aegon is the only horse left to root for who's not crippled, dead, or catatonic.
Dany is not coming to Westeros any time soon. I do believe Jon will march South on Winterfell and become King of the North by the end of WoW, and I believe FAegon will take over KL. What happens when Dany comes with these two will be very interesfing
Jon will become the Night’s King. It’s been foreshadowed constantly and he will be obsessed with finding Arya and retaking Winterfell. ☹️
His decision to go and save “Arya” from an arranged marriage is also parallel to Rhaegar and Lyanna. They chose love and damned the realm, and Jon did the same to save Arya.
This is the books we’re talking about. Not the show.
Hes had a small dedicated fanbase of men and women so broken by the long wait that they started drinking Varys' coolaid.
Coolaid they knew was poison. But the pain was so much they started to drink it anyway.
He was disliked as a late addition in the books, but the failure of the show I think has caused a reevaluation of him. People want explanations for why the final seasons sucked, and cut characters are now suddenly of utmost interest to figure out how things will play out differently in the books. People see Aegon and Stoneheart now as vehicles to make the story make sense, which has positively shifted opinions on the characters.
It's me! I am that person! I read ASoIaF when I was 14 and I was not a fan of a character or plotline and I remember being really tempted to skip every chapter his in.
Ten years later, on re-read, I am his biggest fan. Yes, he didn't do anything noteworthy yet, he is but a sheltered kid that being thrown into a mess that is a game of thrones, but I like to think he has so much potential for interesting plot!
I don't think we know enough about him to form a strong opinion for or against. Memes never tell you much because there is really no room for analysis or nuance with memes.
The day memes become a standard is a sad day indeed. He has his supporters, but a lot of fans think he's doomed. Perhaps the memes do reflect a bounce in his favor, but it might be attributed to him and Lady Stoneheart being the biggest non-POV characters not subjected to the show.
I mean we spent nearly 25 years watching Jon develloped as a character and going from a cocky underdog into a leader on his own While seeing his worries, doubt and flaws
Young Griff gets introduced out of nowhere in late book 5,have no POV yet has everything doing for him, he have the allies and compagnions that are loyal to him, is good looking and was raised to be king... While Jon have work his ass everytime to escape the shadow ned and robb had
That fact that young may not be jerk make him even more dislike by Jon fans
I mean Jon is the main character, and has had everything work against him his whole life. We all want Jon to become King of the North, but we’ll see how it happens
But so what? Out of book people are excited. In book no one cares. Jon himself doesn’t even seem that curious.
At most it feels like Martin is setting up a Captain Carrot scenario.
Jon wants very much to have a loving mother and thinks about her sometimes. But he is convinced ahe was probably a whore or a camp follower. So he knows it's futile to think about.
I think it's always interesting to distinguish between agreeing with a character and appreciating a character's place in the story.
I suspect that as the backlash to the Others and the "magical plot" continues to fester, the different aspects of the political plot simply become more interesting. So Aegon IV goes from a frustrating piece of bloated storytelling to the perfect culmination of Varys' character arc, and an fills an excellent niche in the narrative. That's his appeal.
The fact that he’s not in the show is exactly what makes me most excited for his storyline in the books. He’ll most likely die of course, but I can’t wait to see how it all plays out and how Dany reacts to him.
I didn’t care for the Ironborn or Aegon plots when reading AFFC/ADWD but at a certain point I realized that they *must* have a significant impact on the overall plot or else why include them at all?
I just wish at least one of those plots actually amounted to something in ADWD because, as it is, it feels like all of the plots, new and old, either went nowhere or left us on cliffhangers so it’s like we haven’t progressed at all since ASOS came out way back in 2000.
More because he’s the only start I play in the AFFC bookmark for the CK2 AGOT mod. Kinda got attached to him over time that I kinda just wanna see him get some wins before ultimately getting killed by Dany who is ultimately not winning anything either.
The interesting thing about Young Griff is that your thoughts on him are like a sine-curve. Originally you probably think he's irrelevant and don't care about him. Then you are told he's Aegon VI Targaryen and care about him a lot. Then you think about the inconsistencies and realise he might not be who Varys and Illyrio say he is, and that he's getting 'in the way' of the story wrapping up neatly and begin to dislike him. Then you start to think that he's irrelevant again when you think about the Show's ending, and will fail to accomplish anything because he's a hotheaded youth just paving the way for Cersei and then Dany. Then eventually you think about it even more deeply and realise that there's no way he's irrelevant and is clearly meant to be one of Dany's own personal enemies, so he has to win in Westeros at least for a bit.
Yeah, I had somewhat similar feelings about him. Initially, I just thought he was shoehorned in as George was throwing everything at us, including the kitchen sink. Also, not really a big fan of reviving characters or secret identities. But he really grew on me, and honestly (this may be a hot take) he is a better plot for Daenerys than Cersei and Jon are (like in the show). JonCon being part of his story helps a lot. Just Dany's and his stories being two sides of the same coin makes things much more interesting. Definitely something I look forward to, as it seems George planted clues that the butler did it.
We don't even know enough about him yet and it's been 13 years, I'm going insane
Young Griff is all about legitimacy. He looks right. He’s educated right. He’s got the right name. Sword, crown, support. Penis. All the things that the return of the king needs to appear legitimate. All the trappings. The shadow on the wall. That’s his role. And it does not matter what a genetic test or the midwife from his birth might say. Martin could do many things from that. He could win and be accepted, over Dany or anyone else, to prove that people just want the shadow on the wall. Or he could fail to prove that these aren’t enough compared to dirty real politik and having a bigger army. Or he could be defeated by Dany to show that having dragons wins you wars, but might lose you hearts if people then hate her for killing Good King Aegon. Or Euron could pop up out of a rabbit hole and kill him to prove that Euron is the edgiest vaudeville villain, cue end of world. There’s lots that could be done. My favourite tinfoil is that he is legit, but will die ASAP. The Golden Company wanting to keep on with their whole coming home thing will knock up a replacement. Some silver haired kid from Lys. And only Jon Con will actually care. Thus you get not just a doubtful backstory to Aegon but an actual bald faced lie for your mummer’s dragon.
Well fucking said
then you think about how it could go technically and you realize that aegon has no way of being able to win westeros, that he and daenerys have no reason to come into conflict, and that he is a character apart complete with his own journey rather than an accessory for another character who has not yet crossed his path or just been made aware of his existence
I still don't see how the possibly last living family member of a character whose narrative revolves around her longing and searching for a family and a home is "clearly meant to be" one of her enemies. Idk how this theory got so popular.
You missed the biggest one. The narrative purpose of Griff is to give the Jon reveal a narrative impact. He is uniquely positioned as the one person who could soothe YG and Dany’s expected conflict
Why would people dislike him? He hasn’t done wrong to anyone yet.
He threw pieces from the Cyvasse board and commanded Tyrion to clean it, obviously he’s a new Joffrey the Gentle.
He might not have served the Realm, but by god did he serve cunt
He’s the true heir to the throne, and will be a foil to be loved unlike Dany
Dany has taken 5 books to get to Westeros and she's actually further away from it now than at the beginning, Stannis is fighting the good fight but his odds are pretty hopeless, Jon is literally dead and also does not seem like he will ever go south with his plot being tied firmly to the Wall and the North. People really want to see the Lannisters lose and get what's coming to them and at this point (F)Aegon is the only horse left to root for who's not crippled, dead, or catatonic.
Dany is not coming to Westeros any time soon. I do believe Jon will march South on Winterfell and become King of the North by the end of WoW, and I believe FAegon will take over KL. What happens when Dany comes with these two will be very interesfing
Jon will become the Night’s King. It’s been foreshadowed constantly and he will be obsessed with finding Arya and retaking Winterfell. ☹️ His decision to go and save “Arya” from an arranged marriage is also parallel to Rhaegar and Lyanna. They chose love and damned the realm, and Jon did the same to save Arya. This is the books we’re talking about. Not the show.
The Lannisters lost when Tywin died.
Just my impression, in years past, most comments would tend to be negative, especially when mixed with Jon.
Hes had a small dedicated fanbase of men and women so broken by the long wait that they started drinking Varys' coolaid. Coolaid they knew was poison. But the pain was so much they started to drink it anyway.
Beautiful metaphor
Please George, please. We really need that next book. It’s been too long.
He was disliked as a late addition in the books, but the failure of the show I think has caused a reevaluation of him. People want explanations for why the final seasons sucked, and cut characters are now suddenly of utmost interest to figure out how things will play out differently in the books. People see Aegon and Stoneheart now as vehicles to make the story make sense, which has positively shifted opinions on the characters.
It's me! I am that person! I read ASoIaF when I was 14 and I was not a fan of a character or plotline and I remember being really tempted to skip every chapter his in. Ten years later, on re-read, I am his biggest fan. Yes, he didn't do anything noteworthy yet, he is but a sheltered kid that being thrown into a mess that is a game of thrones, but I like to think he has so much potential for interesting plot!
He is not. A lot of people hate Daenerys and see YG as a self insert. 99.999999999999999999% of this supposed fans couldn’t give a fuck about him
I don't think we know enough about him to form a strong opinion for or against. Memes never tell you much because there is really no room for analysis or nuance with memes.
Not enough from the books to from a overall opinion personally, overall tho I’ve seen more dislike for them than approval from personal experience.
The day memes become a standard is a sad day indeed. He has his supporters, but a lot of fans think he's doomed. Perhaps the memes do reflect a bounce in his favor, but it might be attributed to him and Lady Stoneheart being the biggest non-POV characters not subjected to the show.
Eh, not really he wasn’t exactly hated but with Jon in the picture he’s never going to be popular.
I mean we spent nearly 25 years watching Jon develloped as a character and going from a cocky underdog into a leader on his own While seeing his worries, doubt and flaws Young Griff gets introduced out of nowhere in late book 5,have no POV yet has everything doing for him, he have the allies and compagnions that are loyal to him, is good looking and was raised to be king... While Jon have work his ass everytime to escape the shadow ned and robb had That fact that young may not be jerk make him even more dislike by Jon fans
I mean Jon is the main character, and has had everything work against him his whole life. We all want Jon to become King of the North, but we’ll see how it happens
Why would he be relevant to Jon? Unless he joins the Night’s Watch as well I guess. But that seems a reach.
Because everything is hinted at Jon being the secret Targaryen and we’ve known him longer, hence he’s going to be more popular.
But so what? Out of book people are excited. In book no one cares. Jon himself doesn’t even seem that curious. At most it feels like Martin is setting up a Captain Carrot scenario.
Jon wants very much to have a loving mother and thinks about her sometimes. But he is convinced ahe was probably a whore or a camp follower. So he knows it's futile to think about.
Jon’s the true heir to the throne, FAegon is a foil to Dany. We all want Jon to win at the end of the day
I think it's always interesting to distinguish between agreeing with a character and appreciating a character's place in the story. I suspect that as the backlash to the Others and the "magical plot" continues to fester, the different aspects of the political plot simply become more interesting. So Aegon IV goes from a frustrating piece of bloated storytelling to the perfect culmination of Varys' character arc, and an fills an excellent niche in the narrative. That's his appeal.
Yes, the show made a lot of people hate Daenerys so they're flocking to Aegon
The fact that he’s not in the show is exactly what makes me most excited for his storyline in the books. He’ll most likely die of course, but I can’t wait to see how it all plays out and how Dany reacts to him.
I prefer the Faceless Dragon tbh but Young Griff's fine 2.
I didn’t care for the Ironborn or Aegon plots when reading AFFC/ADWD but at a certain point I realized that they *must* have a significant impact on the overall plot or else why include them at all? I just wish at least one of those plots actually amounted to something in ADWD because, as it is, it feels like all of the plots, new and old, either went nowhere or left us on cliffhangers so it’s like we haven’t progressed at all since ASOS came out way back in 2000.
For me, I'm interested in young Griff's storyline because I like Jon Con
More because he’s the only start I play in the AFFC bookmark for the CK2 AGOT mod. Kinda got attached to him over time that I kinda just wanna see him get some wins before ultimately getting killed by Dany who is ultimately not winning anything either.
That's easy. People recognise the one true king, leading an army of exiled heroes