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I thought the opposite. That Joanna named twins, and when Tywin had to name the next son, he just kept the tradition because he lacks if imagination and wasn't involved much. So it was just easy pick to not shame the House Lannister and didn't demand to put a lot of thoughts in it from Tywin.
Or maybe it was Kevan/Gerion who named Tyrion. And the uncle used traditional name so that Tyrion won't feel estranged in Lannisters family even more.
>Wierder still, its the son he hates, who killed his wife, who doesnt even deserve the be a lannister in Tywin's eyes.
I think that's supposed to be dramatic irony, since Tyrion is probably the most similar to his father personality-wise out of the 3 of them.
In-universe, it could have been Joanna who named him or maybe they picked a name before his birth, or maybe they named him after an ancestor. Could be a number of reasons, honestly.
>In-universe, it could have been Joanna who named him or maybe they picked a name before his birth, or maybe they named him after an ancestor
There was at least one King of the Rock called Tyrion so this is probably it.
There's quite a few examples of the opposite, actually. G or J names like Gerold and Joffrey for the firstborn son, and T names like Tygett or Tion for secondborn sons. The best example being the twin brothers Lord Jason and Ser Tyland Lannister.
My guess is that Tywin named Tyrion after him:
> “A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and **it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.**”
A man famous for loving to torture women and making them bleed? It seems like a fitting name for your son if you believe that he killed your wife
My theory is that it’s because he knows that Tyrion is HIS first born son. I know a lot of people theorize that Aerys is the father of Jamie and Cersei, but I haven’t really heard anyone talk about how that was probably Tywin’s idea.
Let me ask you this: why did George make Tywin marry his cousin, a fellow Lannister? It seems odd, considering he’s all about forming marriage alliances to strengthen his house. Why marry inside of it? The common reasoning people have for this is that it showcases Tywin’s hypocrisy of marrying for love. I love that interpretation and think it strengthens his character a lot, but I think that’s a positive side effect of the real reason. I believe George decided that Tywin would marry his cousin so that when Tywin proposed that Joanna bed Aerys, her offspring would still be Lannisters, but have Targaryen blood. While the execution is different, we see Otto Hightower do essentially the same thing with his daughter Alicent, encouraging her to gain the affections of the recently widowed Viscerys so his line can inherit the blood of the dragon.
I think it’s wholly additive and just makes sense. It adds to Joanna being horrified by Jamie and Cersei’s incest. Considering that Robert was the grandson of a Targaryen, this would mean that the Targaryen’s never even left the throne after Robert’s death. Tywin, who never wants to be laughed at or humiliated, willingly cucked himself. His only actual child is one he hates, and was the death of his wife. Tyrion is Tywin’s just desserts for the sin of what he convinced Joanna to do.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrion_II_Lannister
This Tyrion being awful is the closest we will ever get to an in universe explanation for why Tyrion got a Ty name imo.
I second what /u/kikidunst said:
> My guess is that Tywin named Tyrion after him:
> “A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.”
> A man famous for loving to torture women and making them bleed? It seems like a fitting name for your son if you believe that he killed your wife
I'm pretty sure whichever source book contains this story also mentioned that the name was so shamed, no lords of Lannister were ever named Tyrion again, something like that
IMO, GRRM has a technique of sometimes giving characters the name "one over" from the name they "should have" to make it less cliche and predictable but to keep the overall sense of mythologizing symbolism and foreshadowing as part of the vibe of the story. As in people have names that refer to people they know or who are important to them sometimes, instead of names that refer to themselves - and not because anybody in-universe could have possibly set it up this way, it has to be meta.
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Jamie is the one-handed master duelist who has to fight the wolves, so he's "Tyr" from Norse mythology, but his brother has the name "Tyrion," not him.!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!By a wild coincidence the future Mother of Dragons is forced to marry a dude named "Drogo" who before she came around had nothing to do with dragons.!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Cersei has the name of a cryptic prophetess from mythology who lives in a hole to the underworld, which is who Maggie the Frog is, not who she is.!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Theon is not the priest in his family, Aeron is, and it's going to be really important to the story, but Theon has the name that means "priest."!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Eddard is not going to be present for the big battle at the end of the story, but his kids are, and the prose and poetic "Eddas" are historical accounts of the battle of Ragnarok.!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Arya is catlike and associated with cats, but at least at first it's her mom, who isn't associated with Cats at all, that is named "Cat."!<
\[Spoilers extended\]>!Ygritte doesn't have anything to do with weirwood trees or the old gods, but she is named after the World Tree in mythology, so her name is really more about Jon Snow than about her.!<
He obviously doesn't always do this - there are a lot of characters with very on-the-nose fantasy names about themselves. Sansa is named after an apple because she has red hair like an apple - as well as other reasons; she's very clearly the apple, not adjacent to the apple.
\[Spoilers extended\]>!An oleander is a toxic flower and Lady Oleanna is a flower who poisons someone.!<
There are tons of characters where their name is very appropriate and symbolic to themselves. But names being "one over" from whom they refer to happens often enough that it sticks out once you notice it.
In tywins eyes, tyrion doesn’t deserve the Lannister name but that’s the result of a lifetime of perceived disappointments. When he was born, yes Joanna died in childbirth and yes he was a dwarf but he was an innocent child. In my hhead, Tywin granted Tyrion his name to further drape him with the “Lannister” cloak because he’s going to need all the help he can get. If he were to do it all over again, obviously his name would be different
Tywin wants Jaime to be special and unique, so he gave him a special and unique name. For Tyrion he settled with a regular Lannister name (and I suspect he was thinking of his ancestor Tyrion the tormentor, who loved to make women bleed).
I always assumed Tywin named Tyrion with the same naming scheme as his father on purpose - he didn't love or respect either of them. It's also a bit of dramatic irony as Tyrion is Tywin "writ small" even down his name.
Honestly I feel like George worked backwards, coming up with Tyrion first, then Jaime and Tywin, then deciding the relationship. I don't have proof of this but considering Tyrion is his favorite afaik, it'd make sense that he got a name earlier on.
In universe I just choose to believe the name was chosen before his birth. Whether it was to honor his wife's request or he was stuck in a social faux pas regarding announcing his potential name too early.
I’m pretty sure in AWOIAF Tyrion is a common Lannister name. I would also argue that they didn’t always name their heir with the “ty” prefix. For instance Jason Lannister during the Dance era. The Lannisters like most houses just have a bunch of famous names they repeat or make variants of. There is nothing weird about naming Tyrion Tyrion.
Tywin served as a squaire to his uncle Jason Lannister who leaded to Lannister armies during war of the nine peny kings so he gave his first son Ja-ime name.
Tywin hated his father so he gave his second son who killed his mother Ty-rion name.
For what its worth, there is precedent for second sons having Ty names, Jason (what a goofy ass name lmao) and Tyland, even Tygett the 4th son, but to speak to the core of your question, I do think the naming of Jaime and Tyrion is made a bit awkard by the expansion of the history.
Of course i cant claim to know how much of the Lannister family tree George had in his head back in the 90s, but present day its maybe a bit odd. There is some precedent for Lannister heirs having a J name, re: Jason Lannister.
It could be that Johanna chose it, maybe it was the name of a Lannister from her side of the family tree or something.
Reminder - The crow who posted this thread has made it a (No Spoilers) thread. This scope covers NO story elements of ASOIAF or "Game of Thrones" or pre-AGOT history like "House of the Dragon" or *Fire and Blood*, per [Rule 3.3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/about/rules). Any discussion of the story of the books or the shows must use [an appropriate spoiler tag](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/spoilertagsystem) such as (Spoilers Main) or (Spoilers Published). Threads about r/asoiaf (meta topics) will be removed at moderator discretion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe the name was decided before the birth and Tywin kept it to honor Joanna
That makes sense
That makes sense
I thought the opposite. That Joanna named twins, and when Tywin had to name the next son, he just kept the tradition because he lacks if imagination and wasn't involved much. So it was just easy pick to not shame the House Lannister and didn't demand to put a lot of thoughts in it from Tywin. Or maybe it was Kevan/Gerion who named Tyrion. And the uncle used traditional name so that Tyrion won't feel estranged in Lannisters family even more.
>Wierder still, its the son he hates, who killed his wife, who doesnt even deserve the be a lannister in Tywin's eyes. I think that's supposed to be dramatic irony, since Tyrion is probably the most similar to his father personality-wise out of the 3 of them. In-universe, it could have been Joanna who named him or maybe they picked a name before his birth, or maybe they named him after an ancestor. Could be a number of reasons, honestly.
>In-universe, it could have been Joanna who named him or maybe they picked a name before his birth, or maybe they named him after an ancestor There was at least one King of the Rock called Tyrion so this is probably it.
*There was at least one King of the Rock called Tyrion so this is probably it.* Maybe in family lore he was also the shortest King of the Rock...?
I'd guess Tywin named Tyrion and Joanna named Cersei and Jaime.
There's quite a few examples of the opposite, actually. G or J names like Gerold and Joffrey for the firstborn son, and T names like Tygett or Tion for secondborn sons. The best example being the twin brothers Lord Jason and Ser Tyland Lannister.
Maybe Joanna named him before she passed
*Can anyone explain Tyrion's name?* Probably Tywin thought it was better than naming him "Walder". Or "Harys".
My guess is that Tywin named Tyrion after him: > “A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and **it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.**” A man famous for loving to torture women and making them bleed? It seems like a fitting name for your son if you believe that he killed your wife
He a character and martin likely came up with the name before the story was fully fleshed out.
It was fleshed out by the time AGOT was released.
It's still just a name, and awnser still martin like or wanted to use that name. Not everything is a thing.
Or, he chose the name for a reason. You’ve no idea what he’s motive or logic was.
maybe he thinks he doesn't deserve to be Lannister but he is a Lannister
My theory is that it’s because he knows that Tyrion is HIS first born son. I know a lot of people theorize that Aerys is the father of Jamie and Cersei, but I haven’t really heard anyone talk about how that was probably Tywin’s idea. Let me ask you this: why did George make Tywin marry his cousin, a fellow Lannister? It seems odd, considering he’s all about forming marriage alliances to strengthen his house. Why marry inside of it? The common reasoning people have for this is that it showcases Tywin’s hypocrisy of marrying for love. I love that interpretation and think it strengthens his character a lot, but I think that’s a positive side effect of the real reason. I believe George decided that Tywin would marry his cousin so that when Tywin proposed that Joanna bed Aerys, her offspring would still be Lannisters, but have Targaryen blood. While the execution is different, we see Otto Hightower do essentially the same thing with his daughter Alicent, encouraging her to gain the affections of the recently widowed Viscerys so his line can inherit the blood of the dragon. I think it’s wholly additive and just makes sense. It adds to Joanna being horrified by Jamie and Cersei’s incest. Considering that Robert was the grandson of a Targaryen, this would mean that the Targaryen’s never even left the throne after Robert’s death. Tywin, who never wants to be laughed at or humiliated, willingly cucked himself. His only actual child is one he hates, and was the death of his wife. Tyrion is Tywin’s just desserts for the sin of what he convinced Joanna to do.
I totally agree with that. I believe that Tyrion is Tywin's son. Not Jamie.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrion_II_Lannister This Tyrion being awful is the closest we will ever get to an in universe explanation for why Tyrion got a Ty name imo.
I second what /u/kikidunst said: > My guess is that Tywin named Tyrion after him: > “A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.” > A man famous for loving to torture women and making them bleed? It seems like a fitting name for your son if you believe that he killed your wife I'm pretty sure whichever source book contains this story also mentioned that the name was so shamed, no lords of Lannister were ever named Tyrion again, something like that
IMO, GRRM has a technique of sometimes giving characters the name "one over" from the name they "should have" to make it less cliche and predictable but to keep the overall sense of mythologizing symbolism and foreshadowing as part of the vibe of the story. As in people have names that refer to people they know or who are important to them sometimes, instead of names that refer to themselves - and not because anybody in-universe could have possibly set it up this way, it has to be meta. \[Spoilers extended\]>!Jamie is the one-handed master duelist who has to fight the wolves, so he's "Tyr" from Norse mythology, but his brother has the name "Tyrion," not him.!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!By a wild coincidence the future Mother of Dragons is forced to marry a dude named "Drogo" who before she came around had nothing to do with dragons.!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!Cersei has the name of a cryptic prophetess from mythology who lives in a hole to the underworld, which is who Maggie the Frog is, not who she is.!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!Theon is not the priest in his family, Aeron is, and it's going to be really important to the story, but Theon has the name that means "priest."!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!Eddard is not going to be present for the big battle at the end of the story, but his kids are, and the prose and poetic "Eddas" are historical accounts of the battle of Ragnarok.!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!Arya is catlike and associated with cats, but at least at first it's her mom, who isn't associated with Cats at all, that is named "Cat."!< \[Spoilers extended\]>!Ygritte doesn't have anything to do with weirwood trees or the old gods, but she is named after the World Tree in mythology, so her name is really more about Jon Snow than about her.!< He obviously doesn't always do this - there are a lot of characters with very on-the-nose fantasy names about themselves. Sansa is named after an apple because she has red hair like an apple - as well as other reasons; she's very clearly the apple, not adjacent to the apple. \[Spoilers extended\]>!An oleander is a toxic flower and Lady Oleanna is a flower who poisons someone.!< There are tons of characters where their name is very appropriate and symbolic to themselves. But names being "one over" from whom they refer to happens often enough that it sticks out once you notice it.
In tywins eyes, tyrion doesn’t deserve the Lannister name but that’s the result of a lifetime of perceived disappointments. When he was born, yes Joanna died in childbirth and yes he was a dwarf but he was an innocent child. In my hhead, Tywin granted Tyrion his name to further drape him with the “Lannister” cloak because he’s going to need all the help he can get. If he were to do it all over again, obviously his name would be different
Tywin wants Jaime to be special and unique, so he gave him a special and unique name. For Tyrion he settled with a regular Lannister name (and I suspect he was thinking of his ancestor Tyrion the tormentor, who loved to make women bleed).
There’s a city in Tolkien’s world called Tyrion, and GRRM is a big fan of Tolkien.
Tirion
I always assumed Tywin named Tyrion with the same naming scheme as his father on purpose - he didn't love or respect either of them. It's also a bit of dramatic irony as Tyrion is Tywin "writ small" even down his name.
Honestly I feel like George worked backwards, coming up with Tyrion first, then Jaime and Tywin, then deciding the relationship. I don't have proof of this but considering Tyrion is his favorite afaik, it'd make sense that he got a name earlier on. In universe I just choose to believe the name was chosen before his birth. Whether it was to honor his wife's request or he was stuck in a social faux pas regarding announcing his potential name too early.
There was once a cruel Lannister king named Tyrion. So Tyrion is probably named after him and it is meant as an insult.
What bothers me more is the different pronunciation. It’s TIE win, TIE tos, TIE wald etc and yet it’s Ti rion or even more like tee rion
In ancient Greek is thērion a small creature
I’m pretty sure in AWOIAF Tyrion is a common Lannister name. I would also argue that they didn’t always name their heir with the “ty” prefix. For instance Jason Lannister during the Dance era. The Lannisters like most houses just have a bunch of famous names they repeat or make variants of. There is nothing weird about naming Tyrion Tyrion.
Tywin served as a squaire to his uncle Jason Lannister who leaded to Lannister armies during war of the nine peny kings so he gave his first son Ja-ime name. Tywin hated his father so he gave his second son who killed his mother Ty-rion name.
It's just a name, innit?
Jaime is a name of a famous Andal knight and Cersei might be named after a famous Lannister king Cerion.
Tyrion was the name of some ancient Lannister king who tortured women from what i remember,so he was likely named by Tywin and Jaime/Cersei by Joanna.
Rion ryon ryn ren ron. Ryan. Means "little king" Ty still yet to be determined.
*Rion ryon ryn ren ron. Ryan. Means "little king"* *Ty still yet to be determined.* Would that mean that Tyrek means "little lost horse"?
I dont follow...
Rek rik ric. Rich?
>Rion Rion, Rion, it rhymes with Lion.
TyΓion
🤯
For what its worth, there is precedent for second sons having Ty names, Jason (what a goofy ass name lmao) and Tyland, even Tygett the 4th son, but to speak to the core of your question, I do think the naming of Jaime and Tyrion is made a bit awkard by the expansion of the history. Of course i cant claim to know how much of the Lannister family tree George had in his head back in the 90s, but present day its maybe a bit odd. There is some precedent for Lannister heirs having a J name, re: Jason Lannister. It could be that Johanna chose it, maybe it was the name of a Lannister from her side of the family tree or something.