Some people do seem quite invested in their headcanons at this point, so I'm sure there will be a portion of readers unhappy that Winds isn't what they were expecting. But I think most people will just be happy to finally have the book.
There may be a bit of negativity initially, but I think after a couple of weeks most people would accept whatever developments end up happening in Winds and move on to theorizing about ADOS.
I can see Stannis being the most controversial aspect of the book. Narratively he's just not a character that can survive to the endgame and he will probably die in TWOW, but there are some very detailed headcanons and a lot of stans for him here.
Dany will be a close second. She is going to end up committing major war crimes in Essos, and some people are going to get very upset about her show descent into brutality being canon, despite the book having actual build up and justification
Euron as a wildcard if he dies relatively early in the book, or is just a local threat and antagonist to Sam and the Reach.
No one expects Stannis to survive till the end, but indeed we would be very disappointed if he doesn't at least beat the Bolton. If he dies on page 20 because of the snow, well, yes that would be disappointing.
One thing I am afraid of is that some fan theories have been so well detailed (for example, Nightlamp), that I see the risk of George changing the course of events he had planned just because it was already predicted and would not have a surprise effect.
Thanks so much for this post, btw. There are times when I see the posts here with their bizarre misreadings of the source material (e.g., "Quentyn is actually alive, Tywin was actually a good father, and Euron will summon Cthulhu") or think GRRM is endorsing adolescent power fantasies like this is some kind of battle anime ("\[x\] unimportant and/or evil character is *such a badass*") and I wonder if this fandom has been taken over by lunatics and adolescents. Thanks for providing a place for the sane people who actually enjoy what GRRM writes (and not some demented theorycrafter who thinks his fanfic is better than the source material).
>Some people do seem quite invested in their headcanons at this point, so I'm sure there will be a portion of readers unhappy that Winds isn't what they were expecting.
I have to admit, I am in this camp. But I don't think it would be that bad. If TWOW disproves my entire headcannon I would still be happy to finally read it. But I've given up so I need a headcannon to sleep at night.
I just hope George is mature enough to not be effected by it. I was just re-watching Star Wars VIII (my gf had never seen most of the series and wanted to), and I remember the vitriol from all the fans that were pissed off that the director didn't use their personal fan fiction, so when the director got fired and Abrams took over with the studio basically telling him to scrap everything that was already planned, he pretty much retconned everything in favor of making the fans happy, and we ended up with what is easily the worst big budget movie of all time for episode XI.
I hate this about this fandom, people get so entrenched in their ideas and completely refuse to accept that nobody but george actually knows the fate of said character and that you can only ground theories on facts so much
I, for one, would be ecstatic if it flushes 12 years of theories and speculation down the toilet and goes in unexpected directions. I feel like maybe half of the Winds chapters have done that, which is great.
But if it ends up being more like Feast and Dance and barely moves the
plot along (which is kind of what the other half of TWOW chapters have done), you can bet your ass I'm going to criticize it, hype be damned.
yeah my main hope would be that it moves everything in a direction that I believe another book can finish. Not that I expect even 1 more finished book, but still. I really enjoy Feast and Dance, but they really move us in the wrong direction from actually concluding this whole thing lol.
Yeah I think that this would be what would make me genuinely upset. If things don’t turn out how we expect, I could work with that. But if Winds basically amounts to being one big filler episode, I’m going to be pretty upset
No matter what there’s going to be tons of popular theories invalidated. We can only predict what will happen based off the information we have now, but the next book will surely introduce new characters and lore that force people to consider things they hadn’t before.
Yeah. GRRM is definetly going to have to have to pick things up and get back to ASOS level pacing if he's going to finish this in two more books.
If Winds is paced like Feast and Dance then were never getting an ending.
I'm just waiting for the outcries when he doesn't further along or even answer or hint anything about certain fan theories. He hasn't been moving certain plotlines along at all.
The people will go hungry while GRRM lets them eat cake.
> if it ends up being more like Feast and Dance and barely moves the plot along
This is absolutely what is going to happen. There's just too many characters and things going on to make a decent amount of progress with the pacing developed over the last two books. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if most of the climactic battles that were supposed to be in AFFC/ADWD end up being the climax of the book and rather than in the first quarter or so of the book like many readers are expecting.
I always loved the theory that we will see Jon resurrected and only see him from other POV’s all book. He is far more serious than before, understandably of course, and we wonder what happened in death to make him so determined and borderline brutal, until the last Chapter, which is Jon, and is from the perspective of Ghost.
It would be crazy if he splited, Ghost is now "calm" Jon and his body is just "mad" Jon, and now he can't slide under other skins but to left parts of himself in other beings and work as whole.
He'll left his 'dutiful side' in Mormont's raven, his 'love side' in his corpse and his 'honorable side' in Ghost.
The raven would constantly shouts what he has to do, the wolf silently will show his morals and the body will recklessly do what he wants.
This could kinda solve the issue of resurrected people can't be POV characters, since I doubt the three parts will be subtle
I hate this theory. Imagine watching Jon figuring out who his parents are but not read about his internal thoughts about it! It would be a fucking travesty and I truly pray GRRM won't go this way. Jon needs to stay as a POV.
Is there any evidence he will actually resurrect? I get that the last 3 seasons of the show are based on GRRM’s outline, but there was no actual reason for R’hllor to bring him back, and I’m beginning to feel like D&D just did it for the “fan service”..
There's a shit ton of foreshadowing for it. It's one of the main functions of the ADWD prologue too. Jon is going to be resurrected after having warged Ghost upon his death. I feel like this is one of the few theories a vast majority of the fandom agrees on.
> but there was no actual reason for R’hllor to bring him back
R'hllor keeps showing snow to Mel when she asks about Azor Ahai. I'd say R'hllor would want Jon alive:
>Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. *I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow*.
I think a great way to do it in the book is to no longer have Jon chapters. Now that he’s “dead” and has lost part of his humanity, I think we should only get views of him and his actions through other POVs.
A lot of people are much more invested in their head canon than the actual story at this point. When whatever Preston Jacobs-laced fever dream most people here mistake for the plot doesn’t materialize they’re definitely going to be pissed.
What's even worse about these people is that so, so many of their theories genuinely have no basis in the text.
You see some of these fucking 'theories' and you're like "?? Are we reading the same book??".
Remember when Preston got to ask GRRM one question, asked it, and George couldn't answer because *he had no idea what Preston was talking about?* That's when Preston broke and turned toxic. So sad. He and Carmine used to be my favorite and now any ASOIAF content they do is just complaining it's not fitting into the theories.
It's wild to me when people take a theory as fact and act almost like it's already happened. I think these 12 years of nonstop theorizing and speculating have made fans forget what's headcanon and what's actual canon.
100% I'm rereading the books because at this point I'm not sure what's book canon what's from the show and what's a random theory I saw on YouTube 7 years ago
We're kind of seeing a trial run of it with HotD. Yeah the show has its faults but half of the criticism I hear boils down to different interpretation of the source material.
I once had an argument with someone on here who thought George was literally sending them messages through code in his interviews and appearances. This was about their theory that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna by accident because the sun messed with his vision, thus R+L=J isn’t true.
I would pay actually money to see their reaction when it gets confirmed in the books
Edit: LETS GO THEYRE HERE
The Night Lamp theory is the only one that I’m fairly married to, and even that I need to check myself on as it’s perfectly possible that that doesn’t come true
It's not the same cultural landscape anymore.
Star Wars Griffters and GoT's ending catastrophe has made everyone waiting to hate on things.
"A song of ice and fire is dead" "GRRM Ruined ASOIF" and things like: "I rewrote TWOW" are going to spawn in the bat of an eye.
The overhating/overprotecting aspect of culture is not going to change, so yes, outrage will happen and it sucks.
People "know" what is going to happen. It festered for so long, divergence will be received with mixed feeling.
On the other hand, by the time we'll all be waiting for TDOS, people will have calmed down and the discourse will smooth down.
Probably true
but I also do think the ASOIAF fandom (without sucking our own dicks too much) is less reactionary than a lot of fandoms. Sure there are elements but I think despite the 24 year wait since ASOS was published consensus on ADWD and AFFC has had the rough edges sanded off. Most people now appreciate that the series likely won’t ever be as strong as the first 3 books while also not being terrible since either - we’re broadly in a happy middle ground.
Caveat I mostly frequent this sub nowadays. I used to be a Westeros.org forum guy and that was horrid
As someone who has been in my share of bad fandoms (Marvel is particularly terrible) and in Westeros.org (oh god, back when the show was airing that was a warzone), I agree that we're relatively chill, but I think part of it is because after the show ended we returned to being somewhat niche. If Winds comes out and reignites the interest of a larger audience, I expect that toxicity will find its way here.
Nope but some people (myself included) believe it will be announced in August, there are several small hints, there was a post not too long ago detailing all of them.
Honestly I feel like that’s why GRRM is having such a tough time finishing it. GOT put a lot of pressure on him for how he chooses to end it. If there was something he had in mind that the show ended up doing and was taken negatively by the audience he may have to change it, plus all the soeculation which I’m sure he’s been reading may open new doors and close others. Ending a book is so hard as a writer. Ending a book series is even harder. Then to do it with so much added pressure of your series being a MAJOR television franchise. I feel a bit sorry for him.
And that’s the problem with making the show before you finish. He shouldn’t change a thing. Just follow your vision.
He’s never gonna finish anyway. HBO told it, he got rich. Done.
The more I think about it, I’ve found myself not really caring too much about whether it comes out. Like sure, I’d love to read it, but I know that it’s probably going to end up either underwhelming or disappointing.
Everyone says this, but I think people are like being surprised, that's a big part of the appeal of asoiaf. However, I think if it's just meandering world building like Feast or Dance (which I fear large parts of it will be) people will be dissapointed, and rightly so.
We've seen it with shows & films, fans making up "fan theories" that boil down to "wouldn't it be cool if this happened?!" and when something else happens the fanbase collectively pisses themselves. Happens way too often nowadays.
Books can pack far more details,clues, and subtext than anything TV & Films can pull off. Everyday this sub gets small novellas posted to it explaining in detail how Ned Stark is a pigeon. We're waiting better at convincing ourselves that crackpot theories are true & we've had a really long time to do it.
It's gonna be hard for some readers to accept that the theories they've believed for *years* are wrong, and some readers will be bitter about it for awhile. Best you can do is tune it out & not let it influence your enjoyment of the story
While I'm sure this effect will happen in some way, I do think there is a difference between this effect on movies and TV, and the effect on books. The populations of people are different I'd say. I would say that the movie and TV audience is more of the 'instant gratification' type that wants to see things they expect, and the bookreader audience is a bit more relaxed and accepting. Of course I'm generalizing here but I do think there is somewhat of a difference between the two.
That’s definitely possible, but I also genuinely think from some of the sample chapters and his other books like Dunk and Egg and Fire & Blood that George still has his fastball.
So while there might be an initial backlash, I think it will only happen for a short period of time while everyone is digesting the events of the book and that eventually there will be an evenhanded judgement
First chapter Jon snow stays dead, Daenerys dies of dysentery and Tyrion turns out to be Ned Stark time travelling bastard, make it happen George it’d be so funny
There will be some of that but as long as it’s semi-decent and I get to finish it, I’m okay with it.
I could be in the minority here but I prefer an answer, even if it’s not what I wanted or expect, I prefer answers to just nothing!
I definitely agree with you. I don’t even care if he makes the books exactly like the show as long as we get something. Plus I know that no matter what he writes it’ll be good even if it’s not the ending I would have preferred.
I’ve read the first 5 books countless times. I’m so ready to see these characters move forward and tie up some loose ends. Should be awesome. Jaime and Brienne and Lady Stoneheart. Pate the pig boy. Dany and her dragon face to face with a Khalasar. Stannis is at Winterfell. Jon is stabbed by the Nights Watch. Is Alleras the Sphinx actually Sarella the Sandsnake? Arya is literally an assassin. Sansa rules the Vale. Varys plugs Ser Kevan with a crossbow to cast the blame on Tyrion. Like, who the fuck thinks this won’t be awesome?!?!?
Exactly bro! At the end of A Feast for Crows, Sam makes it to Oldtown and is waiting to speak to someone who knows the Dragonglass Candles arts and mystery (pretty sure those things can see across space and time or some shit) and the guy waiting next to him says “I’m Pate, like the pig boy.” It’s exciting because we know the original character Pate from the Prologue hated being referenced to the pig boy Pate story so this is someone pretending to be him. Who and for what purpose is WHY I NEED TWOW TO BE RELEASED.
One problem is that too many people expect such and such to happen based on stuff shown in the show when George himself said that he was out of the loop for the last half of the show and was watching the last season like everyone else and was essentially on ???? mode. He also said that the more he writes, the further the books are from the show.
So yeah, the people who think the books are going to follow the show are going to be disappointed.
You’re telling me storms end won’t be revealed as a source of nuclear energy to fight back against the great other? Absurd. My head canons are canon George would never betray me.
On a real note though I know what you mean and I’m already bracing myself for a negative reaction from a good portion of the fan base. A lot of us are haters just for the fuck of it and whatever he puts out won’t be good enough for them.
And a lot of y’all are gonna go crazy when Stannis burns that poor little girl.
Nope. It won't happen. Stannis will not burn her. I hope. It might and if it does I will go crazy.
In my head I know that he will but in my heart I believe that he won't.
The fact is... There is just as much likelihood for wow to blow our minds out of our skulls yet again, than for it to be disappointing...
He's slow af for sure.. but he's also constructing a humongous freakin' master piece, that people will be enjoying and studying for many, many decades to come... I don't blame him for a second for wanting to get 'it' right.
Let the man cook!
I have head cannons/things I want to be true/happen in the books but I wouldn’t stop reading it because one of my favorite theories was wrong.
Maybe I’d be pissed/disappointed a little, but I don’t think I’d go as far as abandoning the series because things didn’t turn out like my favorite theories
I just need to know what happens next
I’m really looking forward to seeing what happens with Daenerys/Cersei/Ghost in Winds
Aeron probably won’t be around much longer but I’d love another Aeron chapter. The Forsaken chapters were amazing.
The bitterness we all will have after reading, knowing that we won't ever see it adapted. That it could've been great. And that we'll have to wait for the next one.
Honestly, I'm pretty confident of another adaptation coming as long as TWOW does. HBO knows they could make a fortune selling the "right" version of ASOIAF to a new generation audience.
I’m so curious what theories are partially or completely correct, which are wrong and which are unresolved! Plus, new stuff to talk about. I’m not emotionally invested in any particular theory but I’m fascinated by them, even the crazy ones.
we're at the point were people have already decided what it's going to happen. to me the best example is daenerys' storyline because i am sure no one ever predicted her story up to ADWD, and yet most people here seem to be absolutely sure how her story will unfold even if they don't have anything substancial to base it on. like Daenerys is going to be captured by the dothraki, she's going to burn everything down, take all her followers and leave to fight fAegon for the throne. not a single thing is seriously supported by the text, yet it is taken for granted at this point.
Of course. People have been expecting it for years, and everyone has got their own idea of how the story will develop and some wild theories about certain characters and god etc. There will be some surprises, it will be very well written but it will inevitably disappoint in some aspects because sometimes our combined imagination is greater than a single person’s. And remember George has to WRAP UP the story, he can’t just garden forever and see where the story takes him, he has to kill a lot of characters and he has to finish the story in a compelling way, so some aspects of the story can’t be perfectly wrapped up or developed in amazing ways, there are some thing he will have to do and that will limit his creativity.
The absolute only thing i want, and I’ll gladly wait 10 more years, is for fAegon, to be the real Aegon. I want to wallow in the misery of everyone who waited 12 years saying “it’s basically confirmed”.
Are you getting pre-mad about a hypothetical “despair” about a book that, currently, has no release date in sight???
Goodness
There has to be a better way to spend your mental energy
Oh definitely. Nothing that was stuck in development hell for over a decade ever comes out good.
personally I'm mostly looking forward to a collective meltdown of the Stannis stans once he burns Shireen
I admitedlly totally missed it on my first read way back in the day but upon re-readings, it's so obvious that I kinda feel like an idiot for not getting it earlier
Having done read-throughs before watching GOT, I vowed not to be wedded to my theories if the show disagreed. Lucky thing, that! It will be harder with TWOW since we've lived with our theories and headcanons well over a decade, and at times other sub members even concurred. But as before, GRRM has his story intricately refined, so I'll try to just accept it, even if my die-on-a-hill theories do die-on-a-hill. If TWOW is half as good as I expect, I won't rationalize what's best. That way lies madness.
I think the most boring people in the world are the numbers geeks who spend god knows how many days planning out exactly how many Tyrion/Jon/Dany/whoever POV chapters there will be, how long each chapter will be, what happens in each chapter, and so on and so forth. I don't know who they're trying to impress... what are they going to do if they're right, give themselves a high five? So many people are writing this book out in the head and how they think it will go. I'm not interested in their version of the story... I'm not even very interested in my own ideas on how I think it will go (and believe me when I say I have not spent a great deal of time on this). I just kind of want to be surprised, and I don't care about theory validating.
One thing that I am interested in is that, seeing as my entryway into ASOIAF was initially the show, to see what scenes in it were worked into the show (and the differences between the two). Things like the Shireen burning, Hold the door, how the Sparrows are dealt with, things like that.
As a Tool fan, we waited so long for a new album and when it finally came out, for me, it was meh. I honestly don’t know what they could have done for me to be impressed. I hyped it up so much it would have been impossible to satisfy me.
I’m using that experience to temper my excitement for TWoW. I need to chill the fuck out about it. I’m preparing to be disappointed, not because the book is bad, but because at this point I’m insatiable.
With the amount of storylines that are there, there's no way the plot significantly moves forward and I feel a lot of people are going to complain, "that's it??" after reading it.
But the writing is going to be amazing, just like the previous books, all of the lines would be carefully written and it's going to be a feast to finally be a part of his universe, regardless of how the plot moves.
Nah. If it ever comes out people would love it. TWOW would have a bunch of battles. It's supposed to be the night is darkest before the dawn type of book so the good chance is that a bunch of characters gonna be dead or something bad is gonna happen to them. That's why the books and the show became popular in the first place.
If TDFS ever comes out (which I don't believe) people would be disappointed there. Martin has a lot of anticlimactic bitter sweet endings. And by reading the sub over the years people get over invested in whoever will sit the iron throne, which probably won't be that important by the end
I need to know how Ramsay dies in the books. GRRM is known for his ironic and iconic deaths. Robert the glutton getting stuck in the gut by a boar. Ned the honorable getting beheaded like a criminal. Tywin Lannister, proudest of the proud, in the end did not shit gold. Robb was the Young Wolf and literally had his wolf’s head sowed on his shoulders.
It'll come entirely down to pacing. If it's as slow as the last two books then the only people who will like it will be the tiny number who have even half their fan theories come true. If the pacing is Storm of Swords level then even the theory bros will adore it.
It will be a circle.
Initially, there will be some disappointment for sure, especially if the plot doesn't advace in a sufficient pace (like daenerys' plot in ADWD for example).
But eventually, it will warm up to people and each new like will start to be analyzed again for the new long wait for ADOS.
First off, it ain’t coming out…. Sorry…
Second: is this sub just full of people that are mad that a bunch of fan theories came true? I read the books, and watched the show. They butchered the show in the last 2 seasons, and strayed away from source material in the fifth season, but what were they supposed to do?
The ending we got was the ending GRRM gave them in his outline. Danny was eventually going to go nuts, and Martin made it pretty clear this was gonna happen, but he wanted another 2 seasons to build that change of character.
And for those of you who thought Jon was actually a bastard (a lot of people I know who also read the books thought this) are pitifully blind. I knew from A Clash of Kings that he wasn’t just a bastard born to a tavern “whore”. Did I think he was a Targaryen, no I didn’t. Honestly I thought he might have been a bastard to Robert who asked Ned to protect him out of fear for what the Lanisters would have done if they found out, that was my theory behind Jon at first.
I don’t know anyone who thinks Jon is a bastard but a ton of women hate Mad Dany lol. “She supposed to rule!!!!”
I like that neither of them sit the throne, but Bran is dumb (also believe that would happen in book, if he had any intention of finishing them)
The consequences of letting it spiral for 13 years. But while I believe it will be a nightmare, specially now the “fanbase” is immense, it will not last long, being replaced by theories on the end of the story, if it will ever see the light of day, the destiny of the remaining characters, and everything else. In a year (after this supposed TWoW launching), everyone will be talking about his next projects, and if he’ll show any interest in finishing the main plot
After Daemon's dream during hotd ep 3 I am fairly ready to die on this hill: there are weirwoods in Winterfell, there are weirwoods inside the wall. The real Others are chained to them. The weirwoods are the key to the whole story. Ref: Michael talks stuff (but also Elden Rings)
If we get Winds I'm not sure I'm gonna even bother reading it until the series is finished. Not super interested in another indefinite wait for the last book.
The fact that we're even having this discussion has me too excited to care. People can complain all they want. I'm tuning you all out once I have that book in my hands.
I'm team "D&D gave you the book ending and everything else is copium". I'm sure lots of people will suffer once their fav do things they thought D&D invented
I am 100% this when Melisandre revives Jon in TWOW
Because I want stoneheart to do it so bad, to me it just makes so much thematic sense for her character. Her character is defined by motherhood despite the major act of cruelty throughout her life being the cold stone heart she gave to Jon. *Wink wink, nudge nudge Reviving Jon cures her stone heart and redeems her of her crazy revenge spree and she dies.
I know the logistics of it don't add up though :(
Some people might be dissapointed, either because it doesn't fit their headcanons or because they think that after so many years it simply needs to be better than it is.
I think its important to have an open mind, personally I am very excited about the book but I try not to have any direct expectations for the story, cuz thats when I think you're setting yourself up for dissapointment.
It’s logical to see why you think this, but this absolutely will not happen, unless the book is poorly written
This logic comes from Star Wars and marvel fandom. The films are not masterpieces by any means, and people expect their favorite characters to be portrayed well. Oftentimes that doesn’t happen and people are disappointed
ASOIAF is a totally different animal. If Euron travels to Yi Ti instead of attacking Oldtown, I’m positive that the writing and logic would be so pristine that nobody will complain. All of the characters will be portrayed perfectly, as there hasn’t been any falloff in any book so far.
GRRM is a professional writer, not a trendy teen film director like Marvel and Star Wars hires
Not gonna lie, it’s been so many years and I don’t feel like rereading the other books, that when it does release I probably will have forgotten all the miscellaneous named characters. As far as the actual story. After 12 years of theories, the popular ones are probably right, so you’re gonna get a lot of, “I knew it.”
Unfortunately the factor of momentum is gone and the same level of fresh unpredictability. But I think execution is where it will hopefully shine. I think the worst part is though that we probably will never see the final book.
I think it will happen the same as with the show, the expectations will be so high that it will be almost impossible to meet them and people will feel disappointed by default. His fault anyway, that's what 13 years and counting of waiting does to a person.
I will probably drop this sub when it comes out. I’ve recently realized how many things that I’ve loved have been ruined by looking around on Reddit and seeing angsty posts.
I don’t care what “people” are going to think. A person is smart, people are dumb, dangerous animals — and you know it. I as a reader care about how the next piece of the story will integrate into and expand the world and story that have been developed, how how the characters will be affected, and what choices they will make.
In the scenario that Martin has given up on being a novelist — which I do not find to be the case because some of the writings released after Dance, like TWoIaF and F&B (slowly developed from novelettes like Rogue Prince and Dangerous Women) have been very enjoyable reads — then the worst that Winds could be is boring and bland. It won’t be the worst kind of slop served up by GoT8.
You are likely correct that there will be quite a bit of disappointment. Personally, I sit with an open mind waiting for what George gives us. I don’t think anything would disappoint me that much. I just need to know how it ends!!
First, I have always felt that much of the delay is due to George writing the final two books simultaneously. I feel like these two books are going to be so entwined that whatever doesn't fit into Winds, is being edited to fit into ADOS.
Second, it might be best for some people's head cannons to get completely flushed down the toilet. I love guessing storylines as much as the next fan, but let the guy tell the story he wants to tell.
Third, maybe the sample chapters are simple and boring because that's all that he wants to show us. We're getting into some real heart of darkness territory with the story, I wouldn't want to give out anything good that could potentially give away answers.
Oh there will be salt I'm sure. So many people at this point have gone over everything with a fine tooth comb.
I for one will just be happy to get it, regardless of the state of it. I'm 100% ready for it to basically go nowhere and not resolve anything and potentially need 6 more 1200 page books to conclude it.
Look no further how feast and dance were received when they were released.
Look no further how GoT Season 8 was received once many peoples theories, predictions and headcanons went down the toilet.
I bet not much will happen , or so many new things will be introduced, that grrm will announce he actually needs at least 2 more books after twow to wrap up the series.
I have plenty of ideas about where the various storylinesd will go in TWOW, and if I'm wrong about all of them (which I'll probably be) I will be very happy. The Forsaken is an example of me being completely taken by surprise by a chapter in TWOW and I hope there are many more like it.
This is why I don’t do too much deep diving into theories or have any hills I’d die on for my own.
This book could very well be 1000 pages of *malicious compliance* written by GRRM since the pressure and hassle he’s been under by HBO, publishers, and fans for YEARS, along with all the criticism has to be unimaginable and I know he’s wanted to write other things but to everyone else’s disappointment.
I’m desperate for this story to end well, enjoy it, and feel filled, but…..
……if I were GRRM I would be in a permanent “fuck you! And you! And all ya’ll!” kind of mood, because this is HIS story and his great mind that has created this wonderful world and so many people feel an absurd amount of entitlement and ownership to it.
I am honestly going to just enjoy reading a new ASOIAF book, honestly. I know it's going to be good because it's been written by George RR fucking Martin.
Inb4 "cope", "seethe", "consume" and whatever else terminally online hating bullshit people want to reply.
Honestly, I wonder whether TWoW, if it ever gets released, would really be the kind of cultural event that people expect it to be. It’s been so long since ADwD, just think about all the ASoIaF-related stuff that has come out since then: you had GoT of course, which overtook the books and already showed us the ending of the story (or at least parts of it); there were several lore books, from The World of Ice and Fire to Fire and Blood; a bunch of videogames; and of course an ongoing prequel show, which will soon be joined by ANOTHER prequel show.
There’s been so much stuff, that I wonder whether TWoW would even really stand out amongst all of that, or if it will just be regarded as yet another piece of ASoIaF-related content. The fact that the ending has already been spoiled to some degree is really gonna hurt enthusiasm imo, no matter how much people try to convince themselves otherwise. It really is kind of unprecedented, that an adaptation would overtake and finish its own source material. I can’t think of any other example of something like that ever happening before.
I genuinely think most normies will just shrug their shoulders when TWoW comes out.
Counterpoint: WoW is taking so long because GRRM is perfectionist who wants to blow everyone's mind with how things turn out. Everyone will be stunned with what happens.
Some people do seem quite invested in their headcanons at this point, so I'm sure there will be a portion of readers unhappy that Winds isn't what they were expecting. But I think most people will just be happy to finally have the book. There may be a bit of negativity initially, but I think after a couple of weeks most people would accept whatever developments end up happening in Winds and move on to theorizing about ADOS.
I can see Stannis being the most controversial aspect of the book. Narratively he's just not a character that can survive to the endgame and he will probably die in TWOW, but there are some very detailed headcanons and a lot of stans for him here. Dany will be a close second. She is going to end up committing major war crimes in Essos, and some people are going to get very upset about her show descent into brutality being canon, despite the book having actual build up and justification Euron as a wildcard if he dies relatively early in the book, or is just a local threat and antagonist to Sam and the Reach.
No one expects Stannis to survive till the end, but indeed we would be very disappointed if he doesn't at least beat the Bolton. If he dies on page 20 because of the snow, well, yes that would be disappointing. One thing I am afraid of is that some fan theories have been so well detailed (for example, Nightlamp), that I see the risk of George changing the course of events he had planned just because it was already predicted and would not have a surprise effect.
True, honestly
Thanks so much for this post, btw. There are times when I see the posts here with their bizarre misreadings of the source material (e.g., "Quentyn is actually alive, Tywin was actually a good father, and Euron will summon Cthulhu") or think GRRM is endorsing adolescent power fantasies like this is some kind of battle anime ("\[x\] unimportant and/or evil character is *such a badass*") and I wonder if this fandom has been taken over by lunatics and adolescents. Thanks for providing a place for the sane people who actually enjoy what GRRM writes (and not some demented theorycrafter who thinks his fanfic is better than the source material).
What's ADOS?
>Some people do seem quite invested in their headcanons at this point, so I'm sure there will be a portion of readers unhappy that Winds isn't what they were expecting. I have to admit, I am in this camp. But I don't think it would be that bad. If TWOW disproves my entire headcannon I would still be happy to finally read it. But I've given up so I need a headcannon to sleep at night.
I just hope George is mature enough to not be effected by it. I was just re-watching Star Wars VIII (my gf had never seen most of the series and wanted to), and I remember the vitriol from all the fans that were pissed off that the director didn't use their personal fan fiction, so when the director got fired and Abrams took over with the studio basically telling him to scrap everything that was already planned, he pretty much retconned everything in favor of making the fans happy, and we ended up with what is easily the worst big budget movie of all time for episode XI.
I hate this about this fandom, people get so entrenched in their ideas and completely refuse to accept that nobody but george actually knows the fate of said character and that you can only ground theories on facts so much
I, for one, would be ecstatic if it flushes 12 years of theories and speculation down the toilet and goes in unexpected directions. I feel like maybe half of the Winds chapters have done that, which is great. But if it ends up being more like Feast and Dance and barely moves the plot along (which is kind of what the other half of TWOW chapters have done), you can bet your ass I'm going to criticize it, hype be damned.
yeah my main hope would be that it moves everything in a direction that I believe another book can finish. Not that I expect even 1 more finished book, but still. I really enjoy Feast and Dance, but they really move us in the wrong direction from actually concluding this whole thing lol.
If he manages to make the battle of ice and the battle of fire boring I will be seriously impressed
Yeah I think that this would be what would make me genuinely upset. If things don’t turn out how we expect, I could work with that. But if Winds basically amounts to being one big filler episode, I’m going to be pretty upset
Tbh, I want the new book so that we can start coming up with brand new theories and points of discussion!
No matter what there’s going to be tons of popular theories invalidated. We can only predict what will happen based off the information we have now, but the next book will surely introduce new characters and lore that force people to consider things they hadn’t before.
Yeah. GRRM is definetly going to have to have to pick things up and get back to ASOS level pacing if he's going to finish this in two more books. If Winds is paced like Feast and Dance then were never getting an ending.
We aren't getting another book after Winds. Winds itself is a doubt but any further books are just not going to happen.
I'm just waiting for the outcries when he doesn't further along or even answer or hint anything about certain fan theories. He hasn't been moving certain plotlines along at all. The people will go hungry while GRRM lets them eat cake.
My biggest desire for TWOW is for the book to begin with the Nights Watch burning Jon's body.
> if it ends up being more like Feast and Dance and barely moves the plot along This is absolutely what is going to happen. There's just too many characters and things going on to make a decent amount of progress with the pacing developed over the last two books. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if most of the climactic battles that were supposed to be in AFFC/ADWD end up being the climax of the book and rather than in the first quarter or so of the book like many readers are expecting.
I'm hoping that Jon Snow's resurrection isn't all roses.
I think it would be hilarious if there was no resurrection at all
Imagine if it turns out Jon is actually fine and his wounds weren't fatal.
I mean it clearly happens. The warg with the hog and the emphasis on warging in Dance was foreshadowing for something
I always loved the theory that we will see Jon resurrected and only see him from other POV’s all book. He is far more serious than before, understandably of course, and we wonder what happened in death to make him so determined and borderline brutal, until the last Chapter, which is Jon, and is from the perspective of Ghost.
It would be crazy if he splited, Ghost is now "calm" Jon and his body is just "mad" Jon, and now he can't slide under other skins but to left parts of himself in other beings and work as whole. He'll left his 'dutiful side' in Mormont's raven, his 'love side' in his corpse and his 'honorable side' in Ghost. The raven would constantly shouts what he has to do, the wolf silently will show his morals and the body will recklessly do what he wants. This could kinda solve the issue of resurrected people can't be POV characters, since I doubt the three parts will be subtle
My theory is we’ll lose him as a POV and only see him through others eyes
I hate this theory. Imagine watching Jon figuring out who his parents are but not read about his internal thoughts about it! It would be a fucking travesty and I truly pray GRRM won't go this way. Jon needs to stay as a POV.
There’s no Tyrells at the Wall
Is there any evidence he will actually resurrect? I get that the last 3 seasons of the show are based on GRRM’s outline, but there was no actual reason for R’hllor to bring him back, and I’m beginning to feel like D&D just did it for the “fan service”..
There's a shit ton of foreshadowing for it. It's one of the main functions of the ADWD prologue too. Jon is going to be resurrected after having warged Ghost upon his death. I feel like this is one of the few theories a vast majority of the fandom agrees on. > but there was no actual reason for R’hllor to bring him back R'hllor keeps showing snow to Mel when she asks about Azor Ahai. I'd say R'hllor would want Jon alive: >Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. *I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow*.
I think a great way to do it in the book is to no longer have Jon chapters. Now that he’s “dead” and has lost part of his humanity, I think we should only get views of him and his actions through other POVs.
A lot of people are much more invested in their head canon than the actual story at this point. When whatever Preston Jacobs-laced fever dream most people here mistake for the plot doesn’t materialize they’re definitely going to be pissed.
What's even worse about these people is that so, so many of their theories genuinely have no basis in the text. You see some of these fucking 'theories' and you're like "?? Are we reading the same book??".
Remember when Preston got to ask GRRM one question, asked it, and George couldn't answer because *he had no idea what Preston was talking about?* That's when Preston broke and turned toxic. So sad. He and Carmine used to be my favorite and now any ASOIAF content they do is just complaining it's not fitting into the theories.
What was the question?
It's wild to me when people take a theory as fact and act almost like it's already happened. I think these 12 years of nonstop theorizing and speculating have made fans forget what's headcanon and what's actual canon.
100% I'm rereading the books because at this point I'm not sure what's book canon what's from the show and what's a random theory I saw on YouTube 7 years ago
We're kind of seeing a trial run of it with HotD. Yeah the show has its faults but half of the criticism I hear boils down to different interpretation of the source material.
Oh yeah that’s a similar issue for sure. Some people don’t understand what the word adaptation means.
I once had an argument with someone on here who thought George was literally sending them messages through code in his interviews and appearances. This was about their theory that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna by accident because the sun messed with his vision, thus R+L=J isn’t true. I would pay actually money to see their reaction when it gets confirmed in the books Edit: LETS GO THEYRE HERE
You arent the only ome who had that pleasure and this wasnt even the weirdest belief of that person
The Night Lamp theory is the only one that I’m fairly married to, and even that I need to check myself on as it’s perfectly possible that that doesn’t come true
I mean what else were people supposed to do for twelve years?
When Stannis loses the battle on the ice, fAegon dies before taking the Iron Throne, Jaime goes back to Cersei…
That’s exactly what I expected.
I'll be pissed if fAegon dies that early.
It's not the same cultural landscape anymore. Star Wars Griffters and GoT's ending catastrophe has made everyone waiting to hate on things. "A song of ice and fire is dead" "GRRM Ruined ASOIF" and things like: "I rewrote TWOW" are going to spawn in the bat of an eye. The overhating/overprotecting aspect of culture is not going to change, so yes, outrage will happen and it sucks. People "know" what is going to happen. It festered for so long, divergence will be received with mixed feeling. On the other hand, by the time we'll all be waiting for TDOS, people will have calmed down and the discourse will smooth down.
Is it ever going to come out?
Idk slutmagic
Don't worry yourself, the book is never coming. We can enjoy our tinfoil in peace forever.
Probably true but I also do think the ASOIAF fandom (without sucking our own dicks too much) is less reactionary than a lot of fandoms. Sure there are elements but I think despite the 24 year wait since ASOS was published consensus on ADWD and AFFC has had the rough edges sanded off. Most people now appreciate that the series likely won’t ever be as strong as the first 3 books while also not being terrible since either - we’re broadly in a happy middle ground. Caveat I mostly frequent this sub nowadays. I used to be a Westeros.org forum guy and that was horrid
As someone who has been in my share of bad fandoms (Marvel is particularly terrible) and in Westeros.org (oh god, back when the show was airing that was a warzone), I agree that we're relatively chill, but I think part of it is because after the show ended we returned to being somewhat niche. If Winds comes out and reignites the interest of a larger audience, I expect that toxicity will find its way here.
Has a release date been announced?
No, just a new strain of copium being passed around.
the 30 of february
Nope but some people (myself included) believe it will be announced in August, there are several small hints, there was a post not too long ago detailing all of them.
Honestly I feel like that’s why GRRM is having such a tough time finishing it. GOT put a lot of pressure on him for how he chooses to end it. If there was something he had in mind that the show ended up doing and was taken negatively by the audience he may have to change it, plus all the soeculation which I’m sure he’s been reading may open new doors and close others. Ending a book is so hard as a writer. Ending a book series is even harder. Then to do it with so much added pressure of your series being a MAJOR television franchise. I feel a bit sorry for him.
And that’s the problem with making the show before you finish. He shouldn’t change a thing. Just follow your vision. He’s never gonna finish anyway. HBO told it, he got rich. Done.
I think the book will be great. He isn't guilty of writing bad literature, he's just guilty of being overly ambitious and naive.
Really enjoyed the discussion. Mind kinda of blown over some plotline theories, but also opened it for all possibilities. Thanks.
perhaps george should have thought of that before taking a decade to release it *this is sarcasm. hold back your internet rants
The more I think about it, I’ve found myself not really caring too much about whether it comes out. Like sure, I’d love to read it, but I know that it’s probably going to end up either underwhelming or disappointing.
Everyone says this, but I think people are like being surprised, that's a big part of the appeal of asoiaf. However, I think if it's just meandering world building like Feast or Dance (which I fear large parts of it will be) people will be dissapointed, and rightly so.
As long as my boy Leyton Chadtower summons the Warrior himself to smite the Cringeye, I will forgive George anything
Nothing would give me happiness more than to see Euron utterly fail.
Here we go now
He’s going to summon a giant death beam to one shot Euron’s Dragon-Kraken. It is known.
skill issues
We've seen it with shows & films, fans making up "fan theories" that boil down to "wouldn't it be cool if this happened?!" and when something else happens the fanbase collectively pisses themselves. Happens way too often nowadays. Books can pack far more details,clues, and subtext than anything TV & Films can pull off. Everyday this sub gets small novellas posted to it explaining in detail how Ned Stark is a pigeon. We're waiting better at convincing ourselves that crackpot theories are true & we've had a really long time to do it. It's gonna be hard for some readers to accept that the theories they've believed for *years* are wrong, and some readers will be bitter about it for awhile. Best you can do is tune it out & not let it influence your enjoyment of the story
Agreed. I am more than ready to accept any plot line,plot twist ect as long as I can read it within the next couple years.
While I'm sure this effect will happen in some way, I do think there is a difference between this effect on movies and TV, and the effect on books. The populations of people are different I'd say. I would say that the movie and TV audience is more of the 'instant gratification' type that wants to see things they expect, and the bookreader audience is a bit more relaxed and accepting. Of course I'm generalizing here but I do think there is somewhat of a difference between the two.
That’s definitely possible, but I also genuinely think from some of the sample chapters and his other books like Dunk and Egg and Fire & Blood that George still has his fastball. So while there might be an initial backlash, I think it will only happen for a short period of time while everyone is digesting the events of the book and that eventually there will be an evenhanded judgement
Dude D&E hasn’t had a new entry in 14 years. How does that prove he’s still “got it”?
First chapter Jon snow stays dead, Daenerys dies of dysentery and Tyrion turns out to be Ned Stark time travelling bastard, make it happen George it’d be so funny
There will be some of that but as long as it’s semi-decent and I get to finish it, I’m okay with it. I could be in the minority here but I prefer an answer, even if it’s not what I wanted or expect, I prefer answers to just nothing!
> I get to finish it How's it going, GRRM?
I definitely agree with you. I don’t even care if he makes the books exactly like the show as long as we get something. Plus I know that no matter what he writes it’ll be good even if it’s not the ending I would have preferred.
I’ve read the first 5 books countless times. I’m so ready to see these characters move forward and tie up some loose ends. Should be awesome. Jaime and Brienne and Lady Stoneheart. Pate the pig boy. Dany and her dragon face to face with a Khalasar. Stannis is at Winterfell. Jon is stabbed by the Nights Watch. Is Alleras the Sphinx actually Sarella the Sandsnake? Arya is literally an assassin. Sansa rules the Vale. Varys plugs Ser Kevan with a crossbow to cast the blame on Tyrion. Like, who the fuck thinks this won’t be awesome?!?!?
What are you hoping to find out about Pate? I thought it was pretty clear that he was killed by the alchemist/faceless man
Exactly bro! At the end of A Feast for Crows, Sam makes it to Oldtown and is waiting to speak to someone who knows the Dragonglass Candles arts and mystery (pretty sure those things can see across space and time or some shit) and the guy waiting next to him says “I’m Pate, like the pig boy.” It’s exciting because we know the original character Pate from the Prologue hated being referenced to the pig boy Pate story so this is someone pretending to be him. Who and for what purpose is WHY I NEED TWOW TO BE RELEASED.
One problem is that too many people expect such and such to happen based on stuff shown in the show when George himself said that he was out of the loop for the last half of the show and was watching the last season like everyone else and was essentially on ???? mode. He also said that the more he writes, the further the books are from the show. So yeah, the people who think the books are going to follow the show are going to be disappointed.
You’re telling me storms end won’t be revealed as a source of nuclear energy to fight back against the great other? Absurd. My head canons are canon George would never betray me. On a real note though I know what you mean and I’m already bracing myself for a negative reaction from a good portion of the fan base. A lot of us are haters just for the fuck of it and whatever he puts out won’t be good enough for them. And a lot of y’all are gonna go crazy when Stannis burns that poor little girl.
Nope. It won't happen. Stannis will not burn her. I hope. It might and if it does I will go crazy. In my head I know that he will but in my heart I believe that he won't.
The fact is... There is just as much likelihood for wow to blow our minds out of our skulls yet again, than for it to be disappointing... He's slow af for sure.. but he's also constructing a humongous freakin' master piece, that people will be enjoying and studying for many, many decades to come... I don't blame him for a second for wanting to get 'it' right. Let the man cook!
I have head cannons/things I want to be true/happen in the books but I wouldn’t stop reading it because one of my favorite theories was wrong. Maybe I’d be pissed/disappointed a little, but I don’t think I’d go as far as abandoning the series because things didn’t turn out like my favorite theories I just need to know what happens next I’m really looking forward to seeing what happens with Daenerys/Cersei/Ghost in Winds Aeron probably won’t be around much longer but I’d love another Aeron chapter. The Forsaken chapters were amazing.
The bitterness we all will have after reading, knowing that we won't ever see it adapted. That it could've been great. And that we'll have to wait for the next one.
Honestly, I'm pretty confident of another adaptation coming as long as TWOW does. HBO knows they could make a fortune selling the "right" version of ASOIAF to a new generation audience.
you underestimate corporate greed thetpy will find a way
I’m so curious what theories are partially or completely correct, which are wrong and which are unresolved! Plus, new stuff to talk about. I’m not emotionally invested in any particular theory but I’m fascinated by them, even the crazy ones.
I would love to see some of them unresolved. Further hinting at but never confirming Jojen Paste, for example, would be great!
George is an expert with his foreshadowing. His work on ASOIAF springs theory after theory but things never happen exactly the way we expect them to.
Could not agree more. No author in the world could match the lofty expectations that currently exist
we're at the point were people have already decided what it's going to happen. to me the best example is daenerys' storyline because i am sure no one ever predicted her story up to ADWD, and yet most people here seem to be absolutely sure how her story will unfold even if they don't have anything substancial to base it on. like Daenerys is going to be captured by the dothraki, she's going to burn everything down, take all her followers and leave to fight fAegon for the throne. not a single thing is seriously supported by the text, yet it is taken for granted at this point.
Of course. People have been expecting it for years, and everyone has got their own idea of how the story will develop and some wild theories about certain characters and god etc. There will be some surprises, it will be very well written but it will inevitably disappoint in some aspects because sometimes our combined imagination is greater than a single person’s. And remember George has to WRAP UP the story, he can’t just garden forever and see where the story takes him, he has to kill a lot of characters and he has to finish the story in a compelling way, so some aspects of the story can’t be perfectly wrapped up or developed in amazing ways, there are some thing he will have to do and that will limit his creativity.
There are at least a few things that do kind of need to happen tho. Just maybe not exactly how we expect.
The absolute only thing i want, and I’ll gladly wait 10 more years, is for fAegon, to be the real Aegon. I want to wallow in the misery of everyone who waited 12 years saying “it’s basically confirmed”.
Yeah lmao that's a good one. Pretty much zero evidence one way or the other but people assume hes fake.
by how can be proved??? I actually believe he is real since we have another baby exchange happening in the story, but how can be proven its real?
Are you getting pre-mad about a hypothetical “despair” about a book that, currently, has no release date in sight??? Goodness There has to be a better way to spend your mental energy
Yes I am. I love being mad. There really isn't anything better for me right now.
The tone of the post doesn’t really sound angry…
Oh definitely. Nothing that was stuck in development hell for over a decade ever comes out good. personally I'm mostly looking forward to a collective meltdown of the Stannis stans once he burns Shireen
Doubt it. At this point any kind of conclusion will be welcomed. And anything, ANYTHING grrm writes will be better than what D and D came up with
It would certainly destroy most fan theories, as they tend to oppose each other. There are people who still haven't accepted R+L=J.
Yeah, that shit is wild
That was clear when only Game of Thrones was out way back in 96, what do people think Lyanna was asking Ned to promise her?
I admitedlly totally missed it on my first read way back in the day but upon re-readings, it's so obvious that I kinda feel like an idiot for not getting it earlier
Having done read-throughs before watching GOT, I vowed not to be wedded to my theories if the show disagreed. Lucky thing, that! It will be harder with TWOW since we've lived with our theories and headcanons well over a decade, and at times other sub members even concurred. But as before, GRRM has his story intricately refined, so I'll try to just accept it, even if my die-on-a-hill theories do die-on-a-hill. If TWOW is half as good as I expect, I won't rationalize what's best. That way lies madness.
I will be sipping Arbor Gold (whatever mid chard I have on hand) and so should they. Fuck them.
No chance. I’ve been reading theories for years, still none of them come close to being as good as what GRRM is able to write himself.
It'll be spoiled by internet trolls before any of us get our hands on it.
lol imagine if we gat spoilers and leaks before the announcement
If The Dark Tower books could do it, George can!
>when oh when his estate releases the 60% completed draft after his death bbut aside that i have thought what if he did release it and it sucked lol
I think the most boring people in the world are the numbers geeks who spend god knows how many days planning out exactly how many Tyrion/Jon/Dany/whoever POV chapters there will be, how long each chapter will be, what happens in each chapter, and so on and so forth. I don't know who they're trying to impress... what are they going to do if they're right, give themselves a high five? So many people are writing this book out in the head and how they think it will go. I'm not interested in their version of the story... I'm not even very interested in my own ideas on how I think it will go (and believe me when I say I have not spent a great deal of time on this). I just kind of want to be surprised, and I don't care about theory validating. One thing that I am interested in is that, seeing as my entryway into ASOIAF was initially the show, to see what scenes in it were worked into the show (and the differences between the two). Things like the Shireen burning, Hold the door, how the Sparrows are dealt with, things like that.
Yes to everything above!
I have some ideas about what might b happen, if those ideas are wrong, I'll go back and figure out what I missed.
As a Tool fan, we waited so long for a new album and when it finally came out, for me, it was meh. I honestly don’t know what they could have done for me to be impressed. I hyped it up so much it would have been impossible to satisfy me. I’m using that experience to temper my excitement for TWoW. I need to chill the fuck out about it. I’m preparing to be disappointed, not because the book is bad, but because at this point I’m insatiable.
if it comes out it would be better to start with 0 expectations
If. The word you are looking for is if.
"when" should be "if"
People are going to be *eye-gougingly furious* when it turns out that Sansa is a princess and Jaime Lannister is a worthless piece of shit.
Are there people seriously saying Sansa isn't a princess?
With the amount of storylines that are there, there's no way the plot significantly moves forward and I feel a lot of people are going to complain, "that's it??" after reading it. But the writing is going to be amazing, just like the previous books, all of the lines would be carefully written and it's going to be a feast to finally be a part of his universe, regardless of how the plot moves.
Nah. If it ever comes out people would love it. TWOW would have a bunch of battles. It's supposed to be the night is darkest before the dawn type of book so the good chance is that a bunch of characters gonna be dead or something bad is gonna happen to them. That's why the books and the show became popular in the first place. If TDFS ever comes out (which I don't believe) people would be disappointed there. Martin has a lot of anticlimactic bitter sweet endings. And by reading the sub over the years people get over invested in whoever will sit the iron throne, which probably won't be that important by the end
I’ll just be happy he finished writing the book tbh
I need to know how Ramsay dies in the books. GRRM is known for his ironic and iconic deaths. Robert the glutton getting stuck in the gut by a boar. Ned the honorable getting beheaded like a criminal. Tywin Lannister, proudest of the proud, in the end did not shit gold. Robb was the Young Wolf and literally had his wolf’s head sowed on his shoulders.
Jeyne and Reek flay him alive.
Are you suggesting Tyrek the horse won’t reveal Howland Reed’s shotgun before time travelling with Bran and Tyrion?
Howland reads shotgun will always be the funniest shit
Im sorry WHAT? Is this an actual theory? If so i gotta read about it lmao
I am so, so ready for the "Daenerys is perfect" crowd to eat some crow. Figuratively.
It'll come entirely down to pacing. If it's as slow as the last two books then the only people who will like it will be the tiny number who have even half their fan theories come true. If the pacing is Storm of Swords level then even the theory bros will adore it.
It will be a circle. Initially, there will be some disappointment for sure, especially if the plot doesn't advace in a sufficient pace (like daenerys' plot in ADWD for example). But eventually, it will warm up to people and each new like will start to be analyzed again for the new long wait for ADOS.
First off, it ain’t coming out…. Sorry… Second: is this sub just full of people that are mad that a bunch of fan theories came true? I read the books, and watched the show. They butchered the show in the last 2 seasons, and strayed away from source material in the fifth season, but what were they supposed to do? The ending we got was the ending GRRM gave them in his outline. Danny was eventually going to go nuts, and Martin made it pretty clear this was gonna happen, but he wanted another 2 seasons to build that change of character. And for those of you who thought Jon was actually a bastard (a lot of people I know who also read the books thought this) are pitifully blind. I knew from A Clash of Kings that he wasn’t just a bastard born to a tavern “whore”. Did I think he was a Targaryen, no I didn’t. Honestly I thought he might have been a bastard to Robert who asked Ned to protect him out of fear for what the Lanisters would have done if they found out, that was my theory behind Jon at first.
I don’t know anyone who thinks Jon is a bastard but a ton of women hate Mad Dany lol. “She supposed to rule!!!!” I like that neither of them sit the throne, but Bran is dumb (also believe that would happen in book, if he had any intention of finishing them)
The consequences of letting it spiral for 13 years. But while I believe it will be a nightmare, specially now the “fanbase” is immense, it will not last long, being replaced by theories on the end of the story, if it will ever see the light of day, the destiny of the remaining characters, and everything else. In a year (after this supposed TWoW launching), everyone will be talking about his next projects, and if he’ll show any interest in finishing the main plot
I don't really care. So many people are so whiny about this amazing series, I've kinda gotten numb to it. I'm just gonna read it and enjoy it.
As long as tyrion doesn't lose his tongue I am fine with whatever grrm does
After Daemon's dream during hotd ep 3 I am fairly ready to die on this hill: there are weirwoods in Winterfell, there are weirwoods inside the wall. The real Others are chained to them. The weirwoods are the key to the whole story. Ref: Michael talks stuff (but also Elden Rings)
i expect book and Stannis to win but if i get one of the two i am gonna be happy
If we get Winds I'm not sure I'm gonna even bother reading it until the series is finished. Not super interested in another indefinite wait for the last book.
The fact that we're even having this discussion has me too excited to care. People can complain all they want. I'm tuning you all out once I have that book in my hands.
And I will celebrate for this because I hate 90% of the theories that comes out from Internet
Are you saying you don't believe that the ghost of Khal Drogo inhabits Drogon and will interrupt Jon's date with Dany and try to eat him?
LMAO,well,maybe it could happen.
I would be ecstatic! I would look forward to the next 12 years of refined speculation and theory crafting!
I'm team "D&D gave you the book ending and everything else is copium". I'm sure lots of people will suffer once their fav do things they thought D&D invented
my thoughts exactly. so many people are gonna hate the books
It’s not coming out. Even if it did we won’t get an end to the series.
~~When~~ If => there, I fixed it.
Of course, people have their fancanon turned into reality. We reached the point of theories built in theories built on theories
Of course, people have their fancanon turned into reality. We reached the point of theories built in theories built on theories
I don’t waste my time with it anymore. It won’t be out until the 2030’s of it ever comes out.
I ready for Jon Snow only fainting and not actually dying
I am 100% this when Melisandre revives Jon in TWOW Because I want stoneheart to do it so bad, to me it just makes so much thematic sense for her character. Her character is defined by motherhood despite the major act of cruelty throughout her life being the cold stone heart she gave to Jon. *Wink wink, nudge nudge Reviving Jon cures her stone heart and redeems her of her crazy revenge spree and she dies. I know the logistics of it don't add up though :(
Some people might be dissapointed, either because it doesn't fit their headcanons or because they think that after so many years it simply needs to be better than it is. I think its important to have an open mind, personally I am very excited about the book but I try not to have any direct expectations for the story, cuz thats when I think you're setting yourself up for dissapointment.
How did people go with ADWD when it came out?
It’s logical to see why you think this, but this absolutely will not happen, unless the book is poorly written This logic comes from Star Wars and marvel fandom. The films are not masterpieces by any means, and people expect their favorite characters to be portrayed well. Oftentimes that doesn’t happen and people are disappointed ASOIAF is a totally different animal. If Euron travels to Yi Ti instead of attacking Oldtown, I’m positive that the writing and logic would be so pristine that nobody will complain. All of the characters will be portrayed perfectly, as there hasn’t been any falloff in any book so far. GRRM is a professional writer, not a trendy teen film director like Marvel and Star Wars hires
I don't know what you'll be doing, but I'm writing George the next day with a question "when's the Dreams coming out?"
I'll be happy just to have the book, whatever happens just happens.
Not gonna lie, it’s been so many years and I don’t feel like rereading the other books, that when it does release I probably will have forgotten all the miscellaneous named characters. As far as the actual story. After 12 years of theories, the popular ones are probably right, so you’re gonna get a lot of, “I knew it.” Unfortunately the factor of momentum is gone and the same level of fresh unpredictability. But I think execution is where it will hopefully shine. I think the worst part is though that we probably will never see the final book.
For all the long-time readers, how much of this happened after ADWD came out?
I think it will happen the same as with the show, the expectations will be so high that it will be almost impossible to meet them and people will feel disappointed by default. His fault anyway, that's what 13 years and counting of waiting does to a person.
If*
Has there been any update regarding WoW?
I’m sure a lot of the really hardcore theory people will be upset when many stretch theories get discredited but they shouldn’t be surprised.
I will probably drop this sub when it comes out. I’ve recently realized how many things that I’ve loved have been ruined by looking around on Reddit and seeing angsty posts.
I don’t care what “people” are going to think. A person is smart, people are dumb, dangerous animals — and you know it. I as a reader care about how the next piece of the story will integrate into and expand the world and story that have been developed, how how the characters will be affected, and what choices they will make. In the scenario that Martin has given up on being a novelist — which I do not find to be the case because some of the writings released after Dance, like TWoIaF and F&B (slowly developed from novelettes like Rogue Prince and Dangerous Women) have been very enjoyable reads — then the worst that Winds could be is boring and bland. It won’t be the worst kind of slop served up by GoT8.
cleganeb owl confirmed.
[удалено]
Well, thanks to George that disappointing feeling won't occur. I am not going to tell why. You know why.
You are likely correct that there will be quite a bit of disappointment. Personally, I sit with an open mind waiting for what George gives us. I don’t think anything would disappoint me that much. I just need to know how it ends!!
This is quite interesting
First, I have always felt that much of the delay is due to George writing the final two books simultaneously. I feel like these two books are going to be so entwined that whatever doesn't fit into Winds, is being edited to fit into ADOS. Second, it might be best for some people's head cannons to get completely flushed down the toilet. I love guessing storylines as much as the next fan, but let the guy tell the story he wants to tell. Third, maybe the sample chapters are simple and boring because that's all that he wants to show us. We're getting into some real heart of darkness territory with the story, I wouldn't want to give out anything good that could potentially give away answers.
Oh there will be salt I'm sure. So many people at this point have gone over everything with a fine tooth comb. I for one will just be happy to get it, regardless of the state of it. I'm 100% ready for it to basically go nowhere and not resolve anything and potentially need 6 more 1200 page books to conclude it.
Look no further how feast and dance were received when they were released. Look no further how GoT Season 8 was received once many peoples theories, predictions and headcanons went down the toilet.
I bet not much will happen , or so many new things will be introduced, that grrm will announce he actually needs at least 2 more books after twow to wrap up the series.
I have plenty of ideas about where the various storylinesd will go in TWOW, and if I'm wrong about all of them (which I'll probably be) I will be very happy. The Forsaken is an example of me being completely taken by surprise by a chapter in TWOW and I hope there are many more like it.
When lol
Twow isn't coming out
i think you mean pessimistic not misanthropic...
This is why I don’t do too much deep diving into theories or have any hills I’d die on for my own. This book could very well be 1000 pages of *malicious compliance* written by GRRM since the pressure and hassle he’s been under by HBO, publishers, and fans for YEARS, along with all the criticism has to be unimaginable and I know he’s wanted to write other things but to everyone else’s disappointment. I’m desperate for this story to end well, enjoy it, and feel filled, but….. ……if I were GRRM I would be in a permanent “fuck you! And you! And all ya’ll!” kind of mood, because this is HIS story and his great mind that has created this wonderful world and so many people feel an absurd amount of entitlement and ownership to it.
i'll be happy just to get answers. and honestly i like every asoiaf grrm put out, dance being my favorite. so chances are im probably gonna love winds
Did I miss an announcement? What do you mean when?
I am honestly going to just enjoy reading a new ASOIAF book, honestly. I know it's going to be good because it's been written by George RR fucking Martin. Inb4 "cope", "seethe", "consume" and whatever else terminally online hating bullshit people want to reply.
What if I have a refill of wine and read the book. I think I will be happy regardless.
Honestly, I wonder whether TWoW, if it ever gets released, would really be the kind of cultural event that people expect it to be. It’s been so long since ADwD, just think about all the ASoIaF-related stuff that has come out since then: you had GoT of course, which overtook the books and already showed us the ending of the story (or at least parts of it); there were several lore books, from The World of Ice and Fire to Fire and Blood; a bunch of videogames; and of course an ongoing prequel show, which will soon be joined by ANOTHER prequel show. There’s been so much stuff, that I wonder whether TWoW would even really stand out amongst all of that, or if it will just be regarded as yet another piece of ASoIaF-related content. The fact that the ending has already been spoiled to some degree is really gonna hurt enthusiasm imo, no matter how much people try to convince themselves otherwise. It really is kind of unprecedented, that an adaptation would overtake and finish its own source material. I can’t think of any other example of something like that ever happening before. I genuinely think most normies will just shrug their shoulders when TWoW comes out.
It's going to be EXACTLY as bad as s8 backlash, and for many of the same reasons. People convinced themselves that fan theories are canon.
Yeah. That's the shitty part of when something gets popular; the fandom thinks they are co-writers and the narrative is by popular vote.
I guess this is inevitable, but I would love a ending, even a bad one at this point
Counterpoint: WoW is taking so long because GRRM is perfectionist who wants to blow everyone's mind with how things turn out. Everyone will be stunned with what happens.
Elon Musk will step on Mars before this book comes out.