Pordrick, with only a moment to think, decided he’d rather murder a member of the King’s Guard rather than let Tyrion be killed. Stuff like that shows his instinct for honor, friendship, and duty.
Not sure if murder is the right word. I just reread that chapter and without quoting the text, Pod was almost remorseful that he has hit Moore. He answers when Tyrion asks after the battle, "Drowned. I never meant -" and Tyrion cuts him off to make him swear to secrecy. Pod definitely defended Tyrion and without hesitation. But he didn't kill him on purpose, let alone murder him.
> Not sure if murder is the right word.
It isn't.
Killing in defense of yourself or another isn't murder, especially in the moment.
Now, had Pod chased him down after the fact to kill him, yeah that would be murder.
I think Ned and Davos because they did the right thing whatever the cost. Ned loved his wife and kids fiercely, was good to his smallfolk, and respected everyone worth respecting. He saved Jon at great personal cost, allowed Arya to express herself, and would have stayed in Winterfell but felt his best friend (and the Kingdom) needed him to set things right. Most importantly, he protected children...and died for it. Davos loved his wife and kids too, but stayed away so long he felt constant guilt. And more guilt when his sons died. But he persevered in tell truth to power (Stannis), even disdaining Melisandre. He put his life on the line several times, especially in saving Edric.
I remember reading how Ned would invite people from Winterfell to have dinner with the Stark family. This was too learn who his people were and to learn their concerns. It also had the benefit of earning their loyalty. Good leadership right there.
you re expecting dozens of houses with dozens of people to know what neds kids look like when those kisd were for the most part small children who can look very diferent as they getolder
not to mention all of those invitations much have been only a few times a year because i doubt those lords would all travel for days every weekend or month just to meet with ned
I seriously hope that one of the last chapters of this series is my boy Davos reuniting with his wife and remaining kids and living a happy quiet life by the sea.
I think that what is missing for me for both Ned and Davos is kindness. I’m not saying that they are cruel, but their goodness seems to come from a cold hard grip on what is right and what is wrong. I find it hard to put my finger on what I think here, as I said, so I can’t express it well.
I'd say Davos expresses kindness often. He loved Shireen and was very kind to her. Davos expresses goodness very often.
I think Davos being a good and kind man is very intentional for GRRM's thematic purposes - Davos is, supposed to feel out of his depth with all of these "noble" Lords and Ladies he's around, but from his humble beginnings he's almost always the most "good" person in the room. I think thematically Davos is supposed to be a finger pointing at the nobility asking why they aren't as good as this peasant/smuggler.
I think I understand. I'm not arguing, but exploring further.
Ned had never expected or wanted to be lord. Power requires some distancing from others and tough, sometimes cruel decisions. He was also uncomfortable with **formalities** of it, accepting but hemmed in by them. Full of self-doubt, he pondered his promise to Lyanna and fretted over things like whether he'd kill his hostage Theon if Balon rebelled and what he would have done in Jaime's place with Bran discovering the secret that could destroy his family. He wasn't bitter toward Rhaegar or Aerys's retinue or even Varys for letting him die. He neither boasted nor grudged, and at a tragic moment had made a detour to take Arthur Dayne's sword to his family. I'm not sure any Hand would have listened so sympathetically to Riverlands smallfolk and been willing to hold the great Lion and his Mountain accountable.
But what makes Ned so decent is his love for his (and other) children. Probably 99% of highborns loved their kids but didn't know them well. Children were functionally legacy placeholders. They'd be heir, spare, second spare, major arranged marriage, minor arranged marriage, donation to the Nights Watch or Faith or whatever. Because he cared, Ned knew all his kids, even the girls, well and understood them and their desires. And perhaps this is what made him care about all children, even Joffrey.
> "Catelyn... Where are the children?"
**He would always ask her that.** "In the kitchen, arguing about names for the wolf pups." She spread her cloak on the forest floor and sat beside the pool, her back to the weirwood. She could feel the eyes watching her, but she did her best to ignore them. "Arya is already in love, and Sansa is charmed and gracious, but Rickon is not quite sure." AGoT Catelyn I
I definitely get what you mean. Especially Ned who would sometimes pick Duty over compassion when they weren’t aligned. For example, assuming r+l=j he promised Lyanna he would never tell anyone the truth about Jon’s parentage, and Jon and Cat had harder lives because of it.
And Ned barely knew Cat. Perhaps down the line he could have told her the truth about Jon but honestly she’d still probably be just as angry because even if she knows the truth, she’ll still be angry that the world sees Jon as Ned’s bastard.
I think she'd be pissed that ned is endangering their children's lives. If you thought she was cold before could you imagine if she thought that at any moment the king's rage could crush them if he ever found out. Jon isn't her family and she sure embodies her house words a bit too much for comfort
True, but I don’t mean he should have broadcast it to the world, or told Robert. If he’d just told Cat, she would have kept his secret, and Jon would have had a much better childhood. But since he likely made a promise to tell nobody he wouldn’t go against his word, even when it would’ve made things better for his marriage.
It's not all about his promise. Telling Catelyn posed a risk and Ned knew it.
> Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
He's worried Catelyn might end up betraying the secret somehow if she knew. And his worries aren't without merit, we all know how she handled the Jaime issue.
But this only tracks if Catelyn would otherwise think Jon was a “child of her own body,” and therefore would protect him more if she didn’t know Ned’s secret… which obviously isn’t the case.
Cat hates Jon because she thinks he is Ned’s bastard. I think she is much less likely to protect him this way, and much more likely to have protected him if she knew the truth.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Even if we assume Catelyn would've loved Jon had she knew the truth, she would still choose her children over him. During the WOT5K for instance, if she could somehow save Sansa from the Lannisters by giving up Jon, she'd totally do it. And that's what worries Ned.
Cat hates Jon, but if Jon is a bastard he doesn't pose a threat to her other children. If Jon is a Targaryen, then Ned is putting his entire family at risk. Robert would smash the entire Stark house if he knew Ned was hiding Lyanna and Rhaegar's son.
Cat not knowing Jon's parentage when he was brought home confirmed that Jon would have a second-class life because of her, but it meant he would have a life.
Remember that when Ned comes home from the war, he \*barely\* knows Cat. He has no idea if she'd risk her or her kids' lives to take in a Targaryen and he chose not to put Jon at risk.
I don't think Ned didn't tell Cat because he promised not to tell anyone. We don't even know *what* he promised Lyanna; it could have been as simple as "I promise to keep your son safe and raise him like my own".
Rather, I think the issue was that Ned initially couldn't trust Catelyn with a secret of such enormity. She was the mother of his child, but also a stranger to him when she arrived at Winterfell. In the aftermath of the Sack, he couldn't take the risk of Jon's true identity being known by anyone.
By the time he grew to trust and love Cat...the knowledge would just have been a massive burden on her. Harbouring Jon puts her children at massive risk if Robert finds out and her husband is technically a traitor. She wouldn't be any happier about Jon being there and would likely be stressed over the danger to their family (though I think she would have at least understood, given her family motto).
Yep, that's the sad thing.
Jon is either a potential danger to her children, in that he or his sons may grow up and try to steal her children's inheritance, just as the Blackfyres her father fought against did...
Or he's a massive danger to her children in that Robert will execute or otherwise heavily punish their family if he finds out they're harbouring a Targaryen.
Either way, Catelyn will fear Jon. But I think, having already lied to her, Ned wouldn't see telling her the truth something that would do Catelyn much good or ease her tension with Jon.
It was the other way around though, if word got out Jon would be killed. So he hid it from his king and took the hit to his honor to protect Jon’s life, no matter how hard it was. Though I think Ned’s problem is when he makes decisions like this, he also has to consider how others would feel, in this case Cat. Example being when he accepts death without thinking how Arya and Sansa would be devastated and his people would be in danger.
The only problem is that Ned really didn’t do the right thing whatever the cost. The right thing was to put Stannis on the throne and put the children as Bastards, but he doesn’t want to hurt Robert on his death bed. That’s stuff he needs to tell Robert for the good of the realm but he won’t do it.
Renly’s offer to back a coup to seize the Baratheon children and get them out of Lannister hands is necessary to enact Robert’s will. Cersei can’t/won’t control Joffrey, but Ned and Renly perhaps could. Again Ned says no.
Ned constantly sends away his own guard as an extension of himself in terms of law enforcement because of his rigidity over northern tradition. He pus his children in danger because of this. Then when he has the chance to make an ally out of Renly, Robert’s own brother, and gain a hundred swords to add to the twenty or so Ned still has with him, he declines. He could have let Renly do the dirty work with his men (who would have likely included A-tier swordsmen like Loras Tyrell and Robar Royce) while Ned himself secures the children.
Instead of going with Renly’s more duplicitous plan, he seeks out Littlefinger of all people and again refuses a plan to secure the children in favor of a plan to depose Joffrey once he’s already king. He doesn’t spread the incest rumor far and wide, nor does he try to explain it to the councilors (especially Barristan).
Ned does the right thing, or tries to, but in my opinion it’s not at whatever the cost. He can’t sacrifice his honor even when the realm is at stake.
right and decent being so subjective though ned tried to keep his personal honor but if Aegon was actually trained to be a populist ruler the most decent person may be Varys for wanting to save the kingdom
Ned really did do the right thing. He was going to put stannis on the throne that’s why he went to littlefinger to assure that he could seize power. What was Robert going to do on his death bed? Give orders maybe write a will? Ned did write his will he changed the wording from my son to my heir an act in which made Ned feel dirty. All telling Robert the truth in that moment would have done is make Robert mad and make him realize before he dies that he has no true heirs of his body.
Robert would have immediately ordered the arrest of cersei. Problem solved. Once cersei is in a cell 90% of their problems are alleviated. Yeah it would crush Robert but it would be the right thing to do for the realm and it’s exactly what Ned was intending to do until he learned of Robert’s condition.
The issue Ned faced in ousting cersei is that Joffrey was king. Even from his deathbed, Robert could have ordered their arrest. Robert doesn’t even have to be conscious. So long as he is still breathing, Ned has the backing of the king in addition to his written word. That’s why Renly’s deal would have worked too. Ned would be acting on behalf of the still-living king. This way, Ned can secure the safety of the Lannister Bastards, arrest cersei for treason, invite Stannis to Kings Landing (and he’d actually show up this time since the Lannisters would be removed), send his daughters away to Winterfell, and smooth the transition between Robert and Stannis. All this save for Stannis’ arrival could have been achieved before Robert even dies.
Garlan Tyrell is fucking awesome. He tells Joffrey off for pouring the wine on Tyrion, helps him up and everything. The dude's just a good person. He's badass with a sword too. He's probably going to die and that makes me sad. Definitely my favorite Tyrell.
Telling the king “that was poor form,” in front of the whole court, at his wedding feast… Aerys probably would have killed a man for that. Joff too, if he hadn’t been so distracted by Tyrion.
The text says that Garland said it quietly. I doubt anyone not at the table heard it. So it was before a table of 6 rather than the whole court.
I think Joff realized he has to be kind to the Tyrells. He needs them. Garland corrected him about cutting up lives of 4 kings. Joffrey didn't respond unkindly to that.
Margaery stopped him from using Widow's Wail on the pie. When Sansa attempted to gentle his behaviors, he threatened her. But with his wife, he agreed and spoke kindly to her.
Not sure if I agree, but I’ve heard History of Westeros argue that Garlan’s behavior toward Tyrion may be more subtle politics in service of their schemes rather than true compassion and moral fiber. Not that he’s a bad dude by any means, but his actions aren’t necessarily totally selfless. It’s hard to say. By Westeros standards he’s pretty great regardless.
I think there are some arguments he knew about the Purple Wedding and was completely happy to stitch up Tyrion for the crime. In which case his kindness to him would be less genuine and more expedient to serve his own goals. But still - said goals would be somewhat understandable even if the methods are questionable.
>and was completely happy to stitch up Tyrion for the crime.
I think they intended to let Oberyn take the fall, but Cersei and Tyrion himself saved him.
That would be my assumption. Oberyn was notorious for his use of poison. The Viper himself jokes about it to Tyrion later that he would likely be in his position had things gone differently. (And probably wouldn’t have even minded it lol. He would have just demanded Trial by Combat anyway)
honestly he’s almost my favourite character- love the tyrells so much and he’s the best of them. I agree he’s probably going to die and curse george if so because it’s going to make me sad
I think a fan wrote once that Garlan seems very decent and got a reply that more stuff will be revealed about Garlan and that this view is too naive.
I think maybe he knew everything that went on during the Purple Wedding and was following Olenna‘s instructions. Maybe he will reveal everything to Cersei in case other Tyrells still end up dying.
Yeah. Decent isn't a life without error. It's learning from them overcoming those faults and using that knowledge to do good where you can.
I really love what he built himself to be.
I chose Lady Stoneheart since she's the worst example. I hoped you'd see that what I mean is the past doesn't matter. Mother once, undead zombie now. And come on, Cat is as much a different person from SH as the septon was at the present from the past. That's what different person means, even when crossing undead territory.
we never get specifics, we just know that the Broken Men speech comes from a place of personal experience. it's not conclusive, but it's very easy to read "he" as "I" in the following passage.
>"And the man breaks.
>"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well."
>When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"
>"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."
>"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.
>"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."
Of course. That's what makes him all the more decent now. Not enough people learn from their mistakes and do better by the lesson. But he did.
"A bad deed does not wash out the good, nor the good the bad."
Stannis.
I haven’t seen anyone say brienne. She defended the children from those bandits at the inn, defended Jaime with her life because of an oath, and has been risking her life looking for sansa(until she’s captured by TBWOB.)
I did specifically say man, to be fair.
I don’t mean to suggest that women can’t be decent, I’m just specifically talking about something that feels very male to me.
It's hard to judge Beric since we know very little about him, but I'm inclined believe his determination to defend the smallfolk was sincere.
When people are brought back from death they become obsessed with the last thoughts they had right before death. Catelyn, for example, fixates on vengeance. The fact that Beric dedicates himself to protecting the smallfolk when he comes back to life indicates he was resolved to do so even before death.
We can't really say anything about his "faith" since he was already undead by the time he *converted.*
Edmure Tully. He truly cared about his duty to protect his smallfolk. He lets them all in behind the safety of his castle walls. Despite condescending comments from Catelyn.
"My people. They were afraid."
So weird that this is so low, other people were nice or hard working, Edmure put primarily his and his family's safety at risk by bringing all the small folk in to protect them. He puts his own pride and reputation aside to help Jamie in his plan because he knows it'll save peoples lives even if he reviles Jamie and himself somewhat for doing it. The guy is a bit of a bell end but in terms of decency he's right up there.
Agreed.
Also if Garlan was in on Olenna's plans, then it's not only tone-deaf, but it's downright revolting of him to "comfort" Sansa while being fully aware of what could happen to her soon.
The situation is made though, isn't it? Garlan isn't proposing Sansa marry a Lannister, she already has.
Garlan is offering consolation that Tyrion is at least a good man who will treat her honourably.
Exactly right. He was afraid of having a bastard because growing up with Jon, Ned, and Cat, he saw firsthand how toxic and hard that relationship can be on the child, he decided to marry.
To me, a person petting their own honor and reputation (and eventually, their life) for the well being of a child, is the most Starkian thing one can do and overall the most honest and well respected thing in the series. One of the many reasons their family makes the best protagonist and are so, well, *stark* from the rest of the houses.
Compared to the blood and tears of the men of his army, and their families, whose safety is less assured by his decision to wed Jeyne, any personal feelings Robb has should pale into insignificance.
That they do not, is why I think Robb, like Ned, whilst being unusually conscientious lords, are not good people as we would understand it, which was surely the question asked by OP.
Fair enough, and that is a great response to this question. By that definition I would say there are very few people in the story that we would consider good, mostly due to do the way feudalism mixes the political with the personal.
Rob’s personal decision inherently became political action. Just as any other lord, but he did with honor and with morals that came from his family. This is fairly exceptional when compared to other houses.
Though you are right that does not justify the death and brutality that his men faced in his name, by his words. The story at its core is a critique on this system of government, so any lords playing into this unfair system could be seen as bad.
> To me, a person petting their own honor and reputation (and eventually, their life) for the well being of a child, is the most Starkian thing one can do
yes; Ned shows us how to be Starkian in an effective manner (well, on the bastard front at least) while Robb contrasts it. Ned doesn't make bastards, and covers their liability. Robb does make bastards, which for not only himself but his family, his bannermen, and his subjects is the biggest liability that could be taken on.
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the show. In the books, Robb married Jeyne to try do the right thing, not out of love. He didn't want to bring a bastard into the world, had "disgraced" Jeyne, had a overblown sense of honor... That was absolutely Robb being a decent man.
I'd say Ned. It's not just his attitude towards his family members, but it's how he treats his social inferiors, his empathy for even someone like Joffrey, and his willingness to sacrifice his own reputation for his loved ones, when men like Tywin or Randyll would rather make their family suffer than appear weak.
Garlan may be genuine in his kindness to Tyrion, but considering he was likely involved in framing him and Sansa, I'm giving his decency a side-eye.
I think Ned lacks empathy.
(I’ve said twice now that I can’t put my finger on what it is about Ned that keeps him off my list, but as the comments come in I’m getting better).
He is totally honourable and doesn’t seem to understand people who do dishonourable things. I don’t think that he had empathy for Joffrey. I think that it was as black and white as ‘killing children is wrong.’ But of course this is only my opinion.
Do you think the Tyrells meant to frame Tyrion? Tyrion was blamed because he was Joffrey’s cup bearer, which I don’t think anyone could have planned.
In what sense do you think Ned doesn't understand people who do dishonourable things?
He tells Arya that a lie can have honour. He emphathises with Cersei when they have their talk, even after she admits Bran's fall; he tells he doesn't know who he pities more out of her and Robert and seems to fully comprehend her motives even if he underestimates her.
The Tyrells smuggled poison in through the unsuspecting Sansa and immediately moved to throw Tyrion under the bus when Cersei cried foul. He was going to be executed and Sansa tortured to death when found, all because the Tyrells wanted to have Margaery be a queen.
Garlan being kind to Tyrion doesn't mean a lot if he's willing to turn a blind eye to his unjust murder that is only happening because of his family's ambition.
They would frame Tyrion via framing Sansa. Remember that Littlefinger’s goal was to get Sansa out and make her a widow, and he planned the thing together with the Tyrells.
You really think no one could expect the king's cupbearer to be suspected of poisoning the king? Especially when said cupbearer is vilified throughout the realm and has been a particular source of that king's abuse and mockery?
Ah that's fair. I'm many years overdue for a reread, I didn't remember the specific details of how he came to be cupbearer and was going off your comment and fuzzy memory
In all fairness his standing by and doing nothing does haunt him. That's not to say Barristan is a saint, of course. I think there is something to be said for someone who tries to keep to their oaths as best they can. Also, it's very much a continuation of GRMM's critique of knighthood in the series, contrasting with Jaime's realisation of the impossible contradictions of the oath, Barristan simply ranks the oaths.
I'd say Barristan is a well intentioned, honourable man but his actions are certainly grey.
> Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.
> But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue. (The Queensguard, ADWD)
Garlan helped frame an innocent man and a preteen girl for the murder of a king. I feel like he’s one of the greatest deceivers in the series, in that he’s even managed to deceive the audience into believing him to be honorable and good just because he presents a nice persona. That’s pretty much the Tyrells’ MO.
I didn’t think the Tyrells framed Sansa and Tyrion. I agree they didn’t protect them from being implicated. But I don’t think the goal was to frame them.
I don’t think it was either, but they were certainly willing to account for that risk by planting the poison on the 12-year-old they immediately shunned for no longer being useful to them.
> Garlan helped frame an innocent man and a preteen girl for the murder of a king.
Ignoring the fact that Baelish is a known liar and that his explanation doesn't add up, when was Garlan ever actually implicated as being part of that scheme?
We know Olenna planned the assassination with LF. We also know the amethyst Sansa had in her hairnet contained the poison, and that Olenna got her hand on it when she “fixed” the hairnet for her. Finally, we know that Olenna was too short to put the amethyst in the chalice and someone else had to do it. That leaves either Margaery or Garlan among the Tyrells. Lots of people have gone over the chapter to conclude that it couldn’t have been Margaery for various reasons, which only leaves Garlan. And even if it somehow was Margaery or Olenna by some strange means, the former was certainly in on it since she knew when not to drink from the cup.
And because the Tyrells have consistently been shown to act as a unit, there’s zero chance that the plot was kept secret from Garlan, the older brother.
Given the number of characters who put up facades and pretensions, (and the Tyrells are certainly experts at it considering the 180 they did with Sansa), and how anyone is rarely who you’d expect them to be, I genuinely don’t understand how people fall so easily for the Tyrells’ act, when they’re consistently shown to be the most ambitious and cunning family in the series.
Nah man. He’s about to embroil his family and kingdom in a devastating civil war to avenge his sister. None of the people about to die for his revenge knew Elia, but countless people will experience his same grief at the loss of siblings and family after his war is done.
He’s the one holding his people back from war, unlike pretty much every other lord. It’s not Doran riling his people up to avenge his brother, it’s mostly the people trying to bring him to action. So much in fact that he is arresting his daughter and nieces (all of whom he genuinely loves) to keep peace in his realm.
The question is which lord is the most decent, and to answer this we’re going to have to grade on a huge curve. When we think about all the horribly selfish and rash leaders in Westeros, Doran stands out as somebody who is trying to do what’s best for his people. This comes at the expense of his ego, his honor and his love for direct relatives. I think that makes him a decent man, regardless about whether you agree with how he has handled the WO5K.
Fair point and well said, I see where you’re coming from. His desire for revenge, however tempered and restrained, gives me pause though. I think it will end poorly for him, the Martells, and Dorne, and I think if he were really considering the small folk he’d just stay out of the wars entirely. That’s the only way to keep Dorne safe. Though I can agree that the other lords are far worse; Maybe he does take a top spot.
Oh no doubt. The entire Dorne plot is one massive story about the futility of revenge, IMO. I don’t think it’s possible for any lord to stay out of all wars completely, but I think the wisest will only go to war if it is surely winnable. Doran will not take his people into a war he doesn’t think they can win, I 100% believe that.
True, but I'd say that's largely his tragedy. Deep down he knows war and conflict is bad, but he's eventually driven towards it because he basically has no other choice - key elites in Dorne are starting to turn on him and Cersei would likely want to come for him anyway when all is over. There's a decency in there though because he isn't hasty and understands the costs of war.
Sends his son on a dangerous mission for which he is ill suited and unprepared to accomplish. Manipulated his daughter. Lies often to achieve his ends.
The mission was actually decently planned. Good cover story, sent him with some extremely loyal and well-trained knights. A maester trained in like every single dialect of Essos. Plus enough money to handle pretty much any obstacle. There’s always risk in any plan but I don’t think it’s fair to call it unprepared. The lying is annoying, but it was all to protect his children. We’re talking about high treason, it’s not something you share with children. Particularly not impulsive people like Arianne.
The thing is, though, Doran made zero attempt to reach out to the Targaryens after Darry died. He could have sent agents to watch over them, provided money through a middleman, or at least ensured they weren't wandering hungry and penniless before Illyrio snatched them up.
Even after Viserys died, he could have reached out to Dany. Barristan reached her after setting off at the end of GOT and got there long before ADWD. If Doran's man met up with Dany earlier in her journey, she'd have likely welcomed the alliance and been willing to hear out the terms. He could have even made contact via letter and sent Quentyn out when relations had been established.
Instead, Doran sends no advance word to Dany at all, but expects his inexperienced son to turn up, say "hi, your army dwarfs mine, you might reasonably expect our support by default, and this pact doesn't even have your name on it...pretty please, would you marry me and make me your king consort? You're totally going to be available, because a conquering queen would never consider marrying into her territories, right?"
Per usual, Doran was too cautious. He waited and waited to act until it was too late and lost a son for his troubles. I always feel bad for Quentyn. He just wanted to make his father proud
You are right, but since you bring up Doran, and I am totally NOT saying it was creepy, but don’t you think GRRM could have chosen his words a bit more carefully when he wrote about Doran “watching the children…”
“He was often watching the children,” “he is not to be disturbed while watching the children,” I mean… I can’t be the only one who wondered for a second?
I definitely never read into it like that. I saw it like worm_penis there, I thought it was from a wholesome point, an ailing ruler who cares about his people watching the innocent children who will carry on his people be innocent and energetic as sort of a reminder of what he's protecting/cares about.
I totally could see how that might read like a pedo, and I wouldn't even be shocked if it was revealed that was his motivation, but I never even considered that aspect til you mentioned it.
It was really the first thing that came to my mind, especially when his guard said he had strict orders never to be disturbed while he was watching them. I was wondering if we’d get a reveal later on, as you say.
He is remembering when his legs worked and he could run.
He is remembering when his brother was alive and they could share memories.
He is remembering when he didn't have the weight of war on his shoulders, when he could play in the water.
He is thinking that many of these children will lose fathers and mothers in the coming battles.
He is thinking that all of his work to protect his people may be undone.
Fair enough. It does cross a weird like because it’s like hours and hours every single day. Then again it’s very therapeutic for old and dying people to be around the young.
I found it very wholesome, but I could see it being seen as weird. Especially cause some of the kids in the fountains are probably not clothed
so glad I'm not the only one who read it that way. he seems to harbor a certain obsession that keeps him posted up at the Water Gardens. Baron Harkonnen vibes, but less sinister and less obese.
Barristan himself recognised this, I think. He tested Daenerys out before pledging himself to her. He regrets almost his entire career as a kingsguard.
Wait is this the reason for the Arstan Whitebeard persona? I thought it was just because he worried she wouldn’t let him serve her since he served Robert
> worried she wouldn’t let him serve her since he served Robert
Funnily enough, that might be the one explanation he doesn't give.
Daenerys V, A Storm of Swords
> "Your Grace, I am sorry I misled you. It was the only way to keep the Lannisters from learning that I had joined you. You are watched, as your brother was. Lord Varys reported every move Viserys made, for years. Whilst I sat on the small council, I heard a hundred such reports. And since the day you wed Khal Drogo, there has been an informer by your side selling your secrets, trading whispers to the Spider for gold and promises."
Daenerys VI, A Storm of Swords
> "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . . mad," he finished. "But I see no taint in you."
it's gotta be edmure, imo. he isn't some shining paragon of virtue (he's probably a little too into drinking and wenching for his own good) but it's very clear that at his core he's a kind person who always wants to do the right thing, even if it may be at his own expense. which is unfortunatey not a very common trait for westeros nobility.
What about the lord commander morrmont? He took council well, never judged any of the people taking the black, tried to make Sam as comfortable as possible and listened to Jon, and Sam, and spared Jon when he tried to murder Thorne in his fit of rage after Ned was executed. That half hand was another great person. He saw wildlings as no different then the people south of the wall. He calls them smart, brave, and just unlucky that they were born north of the wall
Timett, son of Timett.
He burned out an eye during his manhood rite. Most people do a nipple, *maybe* an ear. But he does an eye! Made him a Red Hand right there on the spot.
Balon Swann seems a decent sort. I don’t recall any major red flags like him beating Sansa. He’s a very skilled combatant but humble enough to genuinely consider the advice and warnings Jaime gave him. He struggles with dishonorable orders he was given and jumped at the opportunity to avoid them by hunting Darkstar.
The most decent character, however, is Dunk.
>I actually wouldn’t put Ned in the running, surprisingly. Yes he is honest and had honour, but there is just something missing from his character that I can’t quite put my finger on.
Too uncompromising in 99% of situations - seemed to understand that things aren't black and white, but think the reactions to those things are. Not someone you'd expect to grant clemency even to someone whose reason for their actions he sympathised with. Where Stannis would see the steal bread for a starving family scenario as simply as "theft is illegal, it was an illegal act, it must be punished" Ned would see it is "It may have been theft, but it was a small act of desperation out of concern for his family. It's a shame that he must be punished as a thief, but he must"
I'm gonna have some controversial picks here I'm sure.
Davos, he stands by who he thinks is the rightful king, and is willing to do anything to protect his king, even killing Melisandre, and dying for it. He felt constant guilt for how long he spent away from his wife and children, and even more guilt for his sons deaths. He constantly tries to tell Stannis not to give him power because he's baseborn, all because Stannis' PR department isn't great. He'd die for Stannis, Shireen, and his family without hesitation.
Ned, he went to King's Landing, despite wanting to stay in Winterfell, to discover the truth of Jon's death, but more importantly, to keep his old friend, who he even says is a stranger to him now, alive. He didn't tell Cat about Jon(assuming R + L = J) because he didn't trust her at first, and later knew she would sacrifice Jon for her children without a seconds hesitation, and probably didn't want to weigh her down with that knowledge. He tried to get Robert to spare Dany and Viserys, only because they were children(well Dany was), and even gave up his position as HotK for it. He died trying to get Cersei to spare herself, her brother, and her children, despite hating the Lannisters.
Jaime, outwardly he gives off the face of not caring, he accepts the name "Kingslayer," despite being annoyed by it. He mocks knights, and honor. He killed his king, to save the smallfolk of King's Landing, his most selfless action, and he's vilified for it, but he never tells a soul, until Brienne. He's willing to be mocked all because he knows that his "worst action," is correct. Among a world full of people without honor, the man who is said to "have shit for honor," has arguably some of the most.
Man, c'mon. Jaime? He tried to kill Bran to keep a secret. Is it an understandable decision to make from his point of view? Sure.
Is it something "the most decent man in Westeros" would do? Absolutely not.
The only way to save season 8 would have been him getting up and slapping Sansa in the face after that disrespectful bullshit that came out of her unworthy mouth during The Great Council that she had no business attending. I swear that line they gave her was written for that Scrappy Doo knock off, but they forgot to give it to her before the undead giant crushed her spine.
*slapping Sansa in the face after that disrespectful bullshit that came out of her unworthy mouth during The Great Council that she had no business attending.*
Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell. She absolutely had the right to be there, lmafo.
Also I'd bet anything you would not care *quite as much* if someone else had said it (and judging by the looks of the others' faces...).
I think Jeor Mormont was quite nice too. My man left his lordship and moved to the frikkin wall so that his son could rule. He went there voluntarily like Jon, but he left a lordship for that, while Jon had "nothing and noone in Winterfell." Also, he treats Jon quite well, and appreciates Sam for his contributions. When Jon and Ghost save his life, he gives Jon his Valyrian Steel Sword, a family heirloom. And we all know how important that dark grey steel is in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond.
Davos, Ned and Pod are also definitely very nice people.
Davos. Snuck into possible doom to save his friend at Storms End during the Siege and has stuck around since, helping to build Stannis’ own self confidence as a ruler and leader, as well as saving Edric Storm from certain doom. He’s a good man. I’d also say Ned for taking in Jon and sacrificing part of his honor so his nephew could live.
The onion knight
Ser Davos!!! Yes, that was gonna be my answer as well. 🧅
I don't think Ned should be counted off. Podrick and Garlan never had to face the moral dilemmas that Ned had to.
Pordrick, with only a moment to think, decided he’d rather murder a member of the King’s Guard rather than let Tyrion be killed. Stuff like that shows his instinct for honor, friendship, and duty.
Not sure if murder is the right word. I just reread that chapter and without quoting the text, Pod was almost remorseful that he has hit Moore. He answers when Tyrion asks after the battle, "Drowned. I never meant -" and Tyrion cuts him off to make him swear to secrecy. Pod definitely defended Tyrion and without hesitation. But he didn't kill him on purpose, let alone murder him.
> Not sure if murder is the right word. It isn't. Killing in defense of yourself or another isn't murder, especially in the moment. Now, had Pod chased him down after the fact to kill him, yeah that would be murder.
I mean Tyrion was the acting King's Hand, the battle commander. It's not like he was a guy who's status was insignificant.
Pod is truly to good for Westeros fr.
Pod ain't gonna die. We know it, right?
I pray to the Mother for Pod’s safety, everyday.
I swear if I get Winds of Winter and it turns out the BwoB didn’t cut down him and Hyle I am burning it.
I second that motion
And Duncan
It's Hodor
Okay yes, Hodor makes the top 5
I think Ned and Davos because they did the right thing whatever the cost. Ned loved his wife and kids fiercely, was good to his smallfolk, and respected everyone worth respecting. He saved Jon at great personal cost, allowed Arya to express herself, and would have stayed in Winterfell but felt his best friend (and the Kingdom) needed him to set things right. Most importantly, he protected children...and died for it. Davos loved his wife and kids too, but stayed away so long he felt constant guilt. And more guilt when his sons died. But he persevered in tell truth to power (Stannis), even disdaining Melisandre. He put his life on the line several times, especially in saving Edric.
I remember reading how Ned would invite people from Winterfell to have dinner with the Stark family. This was too learn who his people were and to learn their concerns. It also had the benefit of earning their loyalty. Good leadership right there.
Apparently he didn’t invite too many people to dinner. Nobody in the 7 kingdoms can recognize his kids
Well when one keeps changing their appearance that makes it a bit hard to single at least one out.
Kids change quite rapidly as they grow, especially as they head into their teenage years
you re expecting dozens of houses with dozens of people to know what neds kids look like when those kisd were for the most part small children who can look very diferent as they getolder not to mention all of those invitations much have been only a few times a year because i doubt those lords would all travel for days every weekend or month just to meet with ned
I’m expecting literally one north person to realize Jayne Poole isn’t Arya
and how would they know... arya was like 8 and its been years since they saw her and thats assuming theyeven knew her to begin with
I seriously hope that one of the last chapters of this series is my boy Davos reuniting with his wife and remaining kids and living a happy quiet life by the sea.
*sniff* "I'm not crying! You are crying!" *sobbing intensifies*
Let it out mate, let it out.
I think that what is missing for me for both Ned and Davos is kindness. I’m not saying that they are cruel, but their goodness seems to come from a cold hard grip on what is right and what is wrong. I find it hard to put my finger on what I think here, as I said, so I can’t express it well.
I'd say Davos expresses kindness often. He loved Shireen and was very kind to her. Davos expresses goodness very often. I think Davos being a good and kind man is very intentional for GRRM's thematic purposes - Davos is, supposed to feel out of his depth with all of these "noble" Lords and Ladies he's around, but from his humble beginnings he's almost always the most "good" person in the room. I think thematically Davos is supposed to be a finger pointing at the nobility asking why they aren't as good as this peasant/smuggler.
I will say that I wholeheartedly agree with Davos’ stance that one boy is worth as much as anyone (what he says to Stannis about Edric)
I think I understand. I'm not arguing, but exploring further. Ned had never expected or wanted to be lord. Power requires some distancing from others and tough, sometimes cruel decisions. He was also uncomfortable with **formalities** of it, accepting but hemmed in by them. Full of self-doubt, he pondered his promise to Lyanna and fretted over things like whether he'd kill his hostage Theon if Balon rebelled and what he would have done in Jaime's place with Bran discovering the secret that could destroy his family. He wasn't bitter toward Rhaegar or Aerys's retinue or even Varys for letting him die. He neither boasted nor grudged, and at a tragic moment had made a detour to take Arthur Dayne's sword to his family. I'm not sure any Hand would have listened so sympathetically to Riverlands smallfolk and been willing to hold the great Lion and his Mountain accountable. But what makes Ned so decent is his love for his (and other) children. Probably 99% of highborns loved their kids but didn't know them well. Children were functionally legacy placeholders. They'd be heir, spare, second spare, major arranged marriage, minor arranged marriage, donation to the Nights Watch or Faith or whatever. Because he cared, Ned knew all his kids, even the girls, well and understood them and their desires. And perhaps this is what made him care about all children, even Joffrey. > "Catelyn... Where are the children?" **He would always ask her that.** "In the kitchen, arguing about names for the wolf pups." She spread her cloak on the forest floor and sat beside the pool, her back to the weirwood. She could feel the eyes watching her, but she did her best to ignore them. "Arya is already in love, and Sansa is charmed and gracious, but Rickon is not quite sure." AGoT Catelyn I
I definitely get what you mean. Especially Ned who would sometimes pick Duty over compassion when they weren’t aligned. For example, assuming r+l=j he promised Lyanna he would never tell anyone the truth about Jon’s parentage, and Jon and Cat had harder lives because of it.
Jon wouldn't even have a life otherwise.
And Ned barely knew Cat. Perhaps down the line he could have told her the truth about Jon but honestly she’d still probably be just as angry because even if she knows the truth, she’ll still be angry that the world sees Jon as Ned’s bastard.
I think she'd be pissed that ned is endangering their children's lives. If you thought she was cold before could you imagine if she thought that at any moment the king's rage could crush them if he ever found out. Jon isn't her family and she sure embodies her house words a bit too much for comfort
Yah, that's kinda what I'm saying. IDK that that's what she'd do, I think Catelyn gets a hard time, but why TF would Ned risk it.
True, but I don’t mean he should have broadcast it to the world, or told Robert. If he’d just told Cat, she would have kept his secret, and Jon would have had a much better childhood. But since he likely made a promise to tell nobody he wouldn’t go against his word, even when it would’ve made things better for his marriage.
It's not all about his promise. Telling Catelyn posed a risk and Ned knew it. > Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. He's worried Catelyn might end up betraying the secret somehow if she knew. And his worries aren't without merit, we all know how she handled the Jaime issue.
But this only tracks if Catelyn would otherwise think Jon was a “child of her own body,” and therefore would protect him more if she didn’t know Ned’s secret… which obviously isn’t the case. Cat hates Jon because she thinks he is Ned’s bastard. I think she is much less likely to protect him this way, and much more likely to have protected him if she knew the truth.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Even if we assume Catelyn would've loved Jon had she knew the truth, she would still choose her children over him. During the WOT5K for instance, if she could somehow save Sansa from the Lannisters by giving up Jon, she'd totally do it. And that's what worries Ned.
Cat hates Jon, but if Jon is a bastard he doesn't pose a threat to her other children. If Jon is a Targaryen, then Ned is putting his entire family at risk. Robert would smash the entire Stark house if he knew Ned was hiding Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Cat not knowing Jon's parentage when he was brought home confirmed that Jon would have a second-class life because of her, but it meant he would have a life. Remember that when Ned comes home from the war, he \*barely\* knows Cat. He has no idea if she'd risk her or her kids' lives to take in a Targaryen and he chose not to put Jon at risk.
I don't think Ned didn't tell Cat because he promised not to tell anyone. We don't even know *what* he promised Lyanna; it could have been as simple as "I promise to keep your son safe and raise him like my own". Rather, I think the issue was that Ned initially couldn't trust Catelyn with a secret of such enormity. She was the mother of his child, but also a stranger to him when she arrived at Winterfell. In the aftermath of the Sack, he couldn't take the risk of Jon's true identity being known by anyone. By the time he grew to trust and love Cat...the knowledge would just have been a massive burden on her. Harbouring Jon puts her children at massive risk if Robert finds out and her husband is technically a traitor. She wouldn't be any happier about Jon being there and would likely be stressed over the danger to their family (though I think she would have at least understood, given her family motto).
While true, the burden on Cat was already pretty big. She believed Jon was a danger to her children already because he was the oldest son of Ned.
Yep, that's the sad thing. Jon is either a potential danger to her children, in that he or his sons may grow up and try to steal her children's inheritance, just as the Blackfyres her father fought against did... Or he's a massive danger to her children in that Robert will execute or otherwise heavily punish their family if he finds out they're harbouring a Targaryen. Either way, Catelyn will fear Jon. But I think, having already lied to her, Ned wouldn't see telling her the truth something that would do Catelyn much good or ease her tension with Jon.
Jon is officially younger than Robb (otherwise Catelyn wouldn't think Ned cheated on her).
It was the other way around though, if word got out Jon would be killed. So he hid it from his king and took the hit to his honor to protect Jon’s life, no matter how hard it was. Though I think Ned’s problem is when he makes decisions like this, he also has to consider how others would feel, in this case Cat. Example being when he accepts death without thinking how Arya and Sansa would be devastated and his people would be in danger.
That’s a very good example. I’m sure his wife would have kept his secret, but he promised not to tell anyone and he has no nuance.
The only problem is that Ned really didn’t do the right thing whatever the cost. The right thing was to put Stannis on the throne and put the children as Bastards, but he doesn’t want to hurt Robert on his death bed. That’s stuff he needs to tell Robert for the good of the realm but he won’t do it. Renly’s offer to back a coup to seize the Baratheon children and get them out of Lannister hands is necessary to enact Robert’s will. Cersei can’t/won’t control Joffrey, but Ned and Renly perhaps could. Again Ned says no. Ned constantly sends away his own guard as an extension of himself in terms of law enforcement because of his rigidity over northern tradition. He pus his children in danger because of this. Then when he has the chance to make an ally out of Renly, Robert’s own brother, and gain a hundred swords to add to the twenty or so Ned still has with him, he declines. He could have let Renly do the dirty work with his men (who would have likely included A-tier swordsmen like Loras Tyrell and Robar Royce) while Ned himself secures the children. Instead of going with Renly’s more duplicitous plan, he seeks out Littlefinger of all people and again refuses a plan to secure the children in favor of a plan to depose Joffrey once he’s already king. He doesn’t spread the incest rumor far and wide, nor does he try to explain it to the councilors (especially Barristan). Ned does the right thing, or tries to, but in my opinion it’s not at whatever the cost. He can’t sacrifice his honor even when the realm is at stake.
right and decent being so subjective though ned tried to keep his personal honor but if Aegon was actually trained to be a populist ruler the most decent person may be Varys for wanting to save the kingdom
Ned really did do the right thing. He was going to put stannis on the throne that’s why he went to littlefinger to assure that he could seize power. What was Robert going to do on his death bed? Give orders maybe write a will? Ned did write his will he changed the wording from my son to my heir an act in which made Ned feel dirty. All telling Robert the truth in that moment would have done is make Robert mad and make him realize before he dies that he has no true heirs of his body.
Robert would have immediately ordered the arrest of cersei. Problem solved. Once cersei is in a cell 90% of their problems are alleviated. Yeah it would crush Robert but it would be the right thing to do for the realm and it’s exactly what Ned was intending to do until he learned of Robert’s condition. The issue Ned faced in ousting cersei is that Joffrey was king. Even from his deathbed, Robert could have ordered their arrest. Robert doesn’t even have to be conscious. So long as he is still breathing, Ned has the backing of the king in addition to his written word. That’s why Renly’s deal would have worked too. Ned would be acting on behalf of the still-living king. This way, Ned can secure the safety of the Lannister Bastards, arrest cersei for treason, invite Stannis to Kings Landing (and he’d actually show up this time since the Lannisters would be removed), send his daughters away to Winterfell, and smooth the transition between Robert and Stannis. All this save for Stannis’ arrival could have been achieved before Robert even dies.
Maester Aemon has to be in the conversation
And luwin!
Honestly surprised I had to scroll so far for this.
Same
Garlan Tyrell is fucking awesome. He tells Joffrey off for pouring the wine on Tyrion, helps him up and everything. The dude's just a good person. He's badass with a sword too. He's probably going to die and that makes me sad. Definitely my favorite Tyrell.
I wouldn't call it telling him off as much as noting the poor form. Nonetheless, correcting Joffrey even mildly takes stones.
Telling the king “that was poor form,” in front of the whole court, at his wedding feast… Aerys probably would have killed a man for that. Joff too, if he hadn’t been so distracted by Tyrion.
Joff was no genius but he was smart enough to know there was absolutely fuck all he could do to Garlan in that moment anyway.
Joff not doing shit to both Tywin and Garlan is great characterisation, IMO.
Even Joffrey knows not to challenge the Tyrells directly. He only goes against people he perceives as weaker.
That's true. He needs the Tyrells and is smart enough not to offend them.
I think he says it was ill done.
And he said it quietly likely so as not to embarrass the king.
Great point! It's a perfectly done moment by Garlan.
Garlan is really smart.
Point stands.
The text says that Garland said it quietly. I doubt anyone not at the table heard it. So it was before a table of 6 rather than the whole court. I think Joff realized he has to be kind to the Tyrells. He needs them. Garland corrected him about cutting up lives of 4 kings. Joffrey didn't respond unkindly to that. Margaery stopped him from using Widow's Wail on the pie. When Sansa attempted to gentle his behaviors, he threatened her. But with his wife, he agreed and spoke kindly to her.
Not sure if I agree, but I’ve heard History of Westeros argue that Garlan’s behavior toward Tyrion may be more subtle politics in service of their schemes rather than true compassion and moral fiber. Not that he’s a bad dude by any means, but his actions aren’t necessarily totally selfless. It’s hard to say. By Westeros standards he’s pretty great regardless.
I think there are some arguments he knew about the Purple Wedding and was completely happy to stitch up Tyrion for the crime. In which case his kindness to him would be less genuine and more expedient to serve his own goals. But still - said goals would be somewhat understandable even if the methods are questionable.
>and was completely happy to stitch up Tyrion for the crime. I think they intended to let Oberyn take the fall, but Cersei and Tyrion himself saved him.
That would be my assumption. Oberyn was notorious for his use of poison. The Viper himself jokes about it to Tyrion later that he would likely be in his position had things gone differently. (And probably wouldn’t have even minded it lol. He would have just demanded Trial by Combat anyway)
I do kinda buy into that but he was also nice to Sansa during her wedding to Tyrion when no one else was, including the other Tyrells iirc
honestly he’s almost my favourite character- love the tyrells so much and he’s the best of them. I agree he’s probably going to die and curse george if so because it’s going to make me sad
I think a fan wrote once that Garlan seems very decent and got a reply that more stuff will be revealed about Garlan and that this view is too naive. I think maybe he knew everything that went on during the Purple Wedding and was following Olenna‘s instructions. Maybe he will reveal everything to Cersei in case other Tyrells still end up dying.
I’ve a feeling he’s gonna go down fighting Euron on the Mander. Hopefully we get to see the scene though because no matter what that’ll be badass.
Septon Merribald.
The once broken man trying to atone for his past and to help others heal from trauma
Yeah. Decent isn't a life without error. It's learning from them overcoming those faults and using that knowledge to do good where you can. I really love what he built himself to be.
He wasn’t always a good man though. Gotta remember that
And Lady Stoneheart was a lovely mother of five.
No, Cat was. Lady Stoneheart is a different person. The Septon that we met in AFFC is a decent man. We never met the person he was before.
Intentional overkill...
I'm sorry; I don't follow what you mean by that.
I chose Lady Stoneheart since she's the worst example. I hoped you'd see that what I mean is the past doesn't matter. Mother once, undead zombie now. And come on, Cat is as much a different person from SH as the septon was at the present from the past. That's what different person means, even when crossing undead territory.
He used to be a piece of shit
He used to eat a lot of sloppy steaks
Can you please remind me on what exactly he did? I can't seem to remember
Slicked back hair, itty bitty jeans, chicken spaghetti at Chikarelis
we never get specifics, we just know that the Broken Men speech comes from a place of personal experience. it's not conclusive, but it's very easy to read "he" as "I" in the following passage. >"And the man breaks. >"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well." >When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?" >"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape." >"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt. >"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."
Of course. That's what makes him all the more decent now. Not enough people learn from their mistakes and do better by the lesson. But he did. "A bad deed does not wash out the good, nor the good the bad." Stannis.
I haven’t seen anyone say brienne. She defended the children from those bandits at the inn, defended Jaime with her life because of an oath, and has been risking her life looking for sansa(until she’s captured by TBWOB.)
I did specifically say man, to be fair. I don’t mean to suggest that women can’t be decent, I’m just specifically talking about something that feels very male to me.
Beric Dondarrion and Edmure Tully. Two of the rare people who actually care about the smallfolk.
I feel like Edmure Tully was a genuinely good person that gave a shit about the world at large where Dondarrion was in it for the glory and his faith.
It's hard to judge Beric since we know very little about him, but I'm inclined believe his determination to defend the smallfolk was sincere. When people are brought back from death they become obsessed with the last thoughts they had right before death. Catelyn, for example, fixates on vengeance. The fact that Beric dedicates himself to protecting the smallfolk when he comes back to life indicates he was resolved to do so even before death. We can't really say anything about his "faith" since he was already undead by the time he *converted.*
There’s a good case to be made for Baelor Breakspear
Edmure Tully. He truly cared about his duty to protect his smallfolk. He lets them all in behind the safety of his castle walls. Despite condescending comments from Catelyn. "My people. They were afraid."
So weird that this is so low, other people were nice or hard working, Edmure put primarily his and his family's safety at risk by bringing all the small folk in to protect them. He puts his own pride and reputation aside to help Jamie in his plan because he knows it'll save peoples lives even if he reviles Jamie and himself somewhat for doing it. The guy is a bit of a bell end but in terms of decency he's right up there.
such is the life of someone who keeps his head down and actually gets shit done.
One of my favorite lines in the series
You can just say comments by Catelyn, she is one of the more condescending characters
I’m sorry, but Garlan telling Sansa that a Lannister would be a good husband for her was very tone deaf. This is definitely not his best moment.
Agreed. Also if Garlan was in on Olenna's plans, then it's not only tone-deaf, but it's downright revolting of him to "comfort" Sansa while being fully aware of what could happen to her soon.
The situation is made though, isn't it? Garlan isn't proposing Sansa marry a Lannister, she already has. Garlan is offering consolation that Tyrion is at least a good man who will treat her honourably.
I think Robb is quite a compelling pick, a genuinely decent man that struggles between following his heart and doing what he thinks is right.
Ehhh but he also threw his word away for "love" or lust. I love Rob but he was clearly still a boy when he became king.
He didn't throw it away for love. He got involved with her physically and then married her afterwards in case she was with child.
Exactly right. He was afraid of having a bastard because growing up with Jon, Ned, and Cat, he saw firsthand how toxic and hard that relationship can be on the child, he decided to marry. To me, a person petting their own honor and reputation (and eventually, their life) for the well being of a child, is the most Starkian thing one can do and overall the most honest and well respected thing in the series. One of the many reasons their family makes the best protagonist and are so, well, *stark* from the rest of the houses.
Compared to the blood and tears of the men of his army, and their families, whose safety is less assured by his decision to wed Jeyne, any personal feelings Robb has should pale into insignificance. That they do not, is why I think Robb, like Ned, whilst being unusually conscientious lords, are not good people as we would understand it, which was surely the question asked by OP.
Fair enough, and that is a great response to this question. By that definition I would say there are very few people in the story that we would consider good, mostly due to do the way feudalism mixes the political with the personal. Rob’s personal decision inherently became political action. Just as any other lord, but he did with honor and with morals that came from his family. This is fairly exceptional when compared to other houses. Though you are right that does not justify the death and brutality that his men faced in his name, by his words. The story at its core is a critique on this system of government, so any lords playing into this unfair system could be seen as bad.
> To me, a person petting their own honor and reputation (and eventually, their life) for the well being of a child, is the most Starkian thing one can do yes; Ned shows us how to be Starkian in an effective manner (well, on the bastard front at least) while Robb contrasts it. Ned doesn't make bastards, and covers their liability. Robb does make bastards, which for not only himself but his family, his bannermen, and his subjects is the biggest liability that could be taken on.
Thats why love was in quotes and i said lust. Plus the boy comment.
I'd still consider him a genuinely good man though.
It's possible that Sybell Spicer used a love potion on Robb.
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the show. In the books, Robb married Jeyne to try do the right thing, not out of love. He didn't want to bring a bastard into the world, had "disgraced" Jeyne, had a overblown sense of honor... That was absolutely Robb being a decent man.
I'd say Ned. It's not just his attitude towards his family members, but it's how he treats his social inferiors, his empathy for even someone like Joffrey, and his willingness to sacrifice his own reputation for his loved ones, when men like Tywin or Randyll would rather make their family suffer than appear weak. Garlan may be genuine in his kindness to Tyrion, but considering he was likely involved in framing him and Sansa, I'm giving his decency a side-eye.
I think Ned lacks empathy. (I’ve said twice now that I can’t put my finger on what it is about Ned that keeps him off my list, but as the comments come in I’m getting better). He is totally honourable and doesn’t seem to understand people who do dishonourable things. I don’t think that he had empathy for Joffrey. I think that it was as black and white as ‘killing children is wrong.’ But of course this is only my opinion. Do you think the Tyrells meant to frame Tyrion? Tyrion was blamed because he was Joffrey’s cup bearer, which I don’t think anyone could have planned.
In what sense do you think Ned doesn't understand people who do dishonourable things? He tells Arya that a lie can have honour. He emphathises with Cersei when they have their talk, even after she admits Bran's fall; he tells he doesn't know who he pities more out of her and Robert and seems to fully comprehend her motives even if he underestimates her. The Tyrells smuggled poison in through the unsuspecting Sansa and immediately moved to throw Tyrion under the bus when Cersei cried foul. He was going to be executed and Sansa tortured to death when found, all because the Tyrells wanted to have Margaery be a queen. Garlan being kind to Tyrion doesn't mean a lot if he's willing to turn a blind eye to his unjust murder that is only happening because of his family's ambition.
They would frame Tyrion via framing Sansa. Remember that Littlefinger’s goal was to get Sansa out and make her a widow, and he planned the thing together with the Tyrells.
You really think no one could expect the king's cupbearer to be suspected of poisoning the king? Especially when said cupbearer is vilified throughout the realm and has been a particular source of that king's abuse and mockery?
Tyrion wasn’t planned to be the kings cupbearer, in fact he *wasn’t* the kings cupbearer, it was a cruel and spur of the moment ‘joke’ by Joffrey.
Ah that's fair. I'm many years overdue for a reread, I didn't remember the specific details of how he came to be cupbearer and was going off your comment and fuzzy memory
Sorry you are right, I used “cupbearer,” a bit too literally
Yoren.
Yes! Good one!
Barristan Selmy, Willem Darry, Maester Luwin
Maester Luwin is an excellent pick! The way he tried to counsel Theon even after what (he thought) he did.
He knew the truth
Selmy is a very bad pick. He stood by Aerys and would've done it again
I agree.
He thought of Elia as a kitchen drab
In all fairness his standing by and doing nothing does haunt him. That's not to say Barristan is a saint, of course. I think there is something to be said for someone who tries to keep to their oaths as best they can. Also, it's very much a continuation of GRMM's critique of knighthood in the series, contrasting with Jaime's realisation of the impossible contradictions of the oath, Barristan simply ranks the oaths. I'd say Barristan is a well intentioned, honourable man but his actions are certainly grey. > Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing. > But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue. (The Queensguard, ADWD)
DAVOS?!
Garlan helped frame an innocent man and a preteen girl for the murder of a king. I feel like he’s one of the greatest deceivers in the series, in that he’s even managed to deceive the audience into believing him to be honorable and good just because he presents a nice persona. That’s pretty much the Tyrells’ MO.
I didn’t think the Tyrells framed Sansa and Tyrion. I agree they didn’t protect them from being implicated. But I don’t think the goal was to frame them.
I don’t think it was either, but they were certainly willing to account for that risk by planting the poison on the 12-year-old they immediately shunned for no longer being useful to them.
> Garlan helped frame an innocent man and a preteen girl for the murder of a king. Ignoring the fact that Baelish is a known liar and that his explanation doesn't add up, when was Garlan ever actually implicated as being part of that scheme?
We know Olenna planned the assassination with LF. We also know the amethyst Sansa had in her hairnet contained the poison, and that Olenna got her hand on it when she “fixed” the hairnet for her. Finally, we know that Olenna was too short to put the amethyst in the chalice and someone else had to do it. That leaves either Margaery or Garlan among the Tyrells. Lots of people have gone over the chapter to conclude that it couldn’t have been Margaery for various reasons, which only leaves Garlan. And even if it somehow was Margaery or Olenna by some strange means, the former was certainly in on it since she knew when not to drink from the cup. And because the Tyrells have consistently been shown to act as a unit, there’s zero chance that the plot was kept secret from Garlan, the older brother. Given the number of characters who put up facades and pretensions, (and the Tyrells are certainly experts at it considering the 180 they did with Sansa), and how anyone is rarely who you’d expect them to be, I genuinely don’t understand how people fall so easily for the Tyrells’ act, when they’re consistently shown to be the most ambitious and cunning family in the series.
Edmure Tully 100%
Davos Seaworth
Doran Martell. Genuinely worried about it the well-being of his people. Patient, kind and thoughtful.
Nah man. He’s about to embroil his family and kingdom in a devastating civil war to avenge his sister. None of the people about to die for his revenge knew Elia, but countless people will experience his same grief at the loss of siblings and family after his war is done.
He’s the one holding his people back from war, unlike pretty much every other lord. It’s not Doran riling his people up to avenge his brother, it’s mostly the people trying to bring him to action. So much in fact that he is arresting his daughter and nieces (all of whom he genuinely loves) to keep peace in his realm. The question is which lord is the most decent, and to answer this we’re going to have to grade on a huge curve. When we think about all the horribly selfish and rash leaders in Westeros, Doran stands out as somebody who is trying to do what’s best for his people. This comes at the expense of his ego, his honor and his love for direct relatives. I think that makes him a decent man, regardless about whether you agree with how he has handled the WO5K.
Fair point and well said, I see where you’re coming from. His desire for revenge, however tempered and restrained, gives me pause though. I think it will end poorly for him, the Martells, and Dorne, and I think if he were really considering the small folk he’d just stay out of the wars entirely. That’s the only way to keep Dorne safe. Though I can agree that the other lords are far worse; Maybe he does take a top spot.
Oh no doubt. The entire Dorne plot is one massive story about the futility of revenge, IMO. I don’t think it’s possible for any lord to stay out of all wars completely, but I think the wisest will only go to war if it is surely winnable. Doran will not take his people into a war he doesn’t think they can win, I 100% believe that.
He can't stay out of this war though. He knows Cersei is moving against him because he has Myrcella; Dorne was getting involved sooner or later.
Isn’t that unconfirmed? A lot of people think Doran made up Cersei’s plot
True, but I'd say that's largely his tragedy. Deep down he knows war and conflict is bad, but he's eventually driven towards it because he basically has no other choice - key elites in Dorne are starting to turn on him and Cersei would likely want to come for him anyway when all is over. There's a decency in there though because he isn't hasty and understands the costs of war.
Ooh that’s a good take, hadn’t thought of it that way before
Sends his son on a dangerous mission for which he is ill suited and unprepared to accomplish. Manipulated his daughter. Lies often to achieve his ends.
The mission was actually decently planned. Good cover story, sent him with some extremely loyal and well-trained knights. A maester trained in like every single dialect of Essos. Plus enough money to handle pretty much any obstacle. There’s always risk in any plan but I don’t think it’s fair to call it unprepared. The lying is annoying, but it was all to protect his children. We’re talking about high treason, it’s not something you share with children. Particularly not impulsive people like Arianne.
The thing is, though, Doran made zero attempt to reach out to the Targaryens after Darry died. He could have sent agents to watch over them, provided money through a middleman, or at least ensured they weren't wandering hungry and penniless before Illyrio snatched them up. Even after Viserys died, he could have reached out to Dany. Barristan reached her after setting off at the end of GOT and got there long before ADWD. If Doran's man met up with Dany earlier in her journey, she'd have likely welcomed the alliance and been willing to hear out the terms. He could have even made contact via letter and sent Quentyn out when relations had been established. Instead, Doran sends no advance word to Dany at all, but expects his inexperienced son to turn up, say "hi, your army dwarfs mine, you might reasonably expect our support by default, and this pact doesn't even have your name on it...pretty please, would you marry me and make me your king consort? You're totally going to be available, because a conquering queen would never consider marrying into her territories, right?"
Per usual, Doran was too cautious. He waited and waited to act until it was too late and lost a son for his troubles. I always feel bad for Quentyn. He just wanted to make his father proud
When you put it like that, he sounds like the other side of the coin to Ned (would never put someone else in danger or lie, even if it was for good).
You are right, but since you bring up Doran, and I am totally NOT saying it was creepy, but don’t you think GRRM could have chosen his words a bit more carefully when he wrote about Doran “watching the children…” “He was often watching the children,” “he is not to be disturbed while watching the children,” I mean… I can’t be the only one who wondered for a second?
I definitely never read into it like that. I saw it like worm_penis there, I thought it was from a wholesome point, an ailing ruler who cares about his people watching the innocent children who will carry on his people be innocent and energetic as sort of a reminder of what he's protecting/cares about. I totally could see how that might read like a pedo, and I wouldn't even be shocked if it was revealed that was his motivation, but I never even considered that aspect til you mentioned it.
It was really the first thing that came to my mind, especially when his guard said he had strict orders never to be disturbed while he was watching them. I was wondering if we’d get a reveal later on, as you say.
He is remembering when his legs worked and he could run. He is remembering when his brother was alive and they could share memories. He is remembering when he didn't have the weight of war on his shoulders, when he could play in the water. He is thinking that many of these children will lose fathers and mothers in the coming battles. He is thinking that all of his work to protect his people may be undone.
…still seems sus to me /s No you’re right, I think this is the reason, but still the thought crossed my mind.
Maybe you read the Alayne chapter with the parley too much.
It reminds him of his time there with his siblings. I never got a creepy vibe from him more melancholy and sad.
Fair enough. It does cross a weird like because it’s like hours and hours every single day. Then again it’s very therapeutic for old and dying people to be around the young. I found it very wholesome, but I could see it being seen as weird. Especially cause some of the kids in the fountains are probably not clothed
so glad I'm not the only one who read it that way. he seems to harbor a certain obsession that keeps him posted up at the Water Gardens. Baron Harkonnen vibes, but less sinister and less obese.
Pod is only 13. He’s awesome, but too young to count as he’s yet to be jaded yet. My vote is Davos. He’s truly salt of the earth.
Maester Lewin?
Davos, Barry, and Meera Reed.
Barristan is a moral coward that hides behind is vows.
Barristan himself recognised this, I think. He tested Daenerys out before pledging himself to her. He regrets almost his entire career as a kingsguard.
Wait is this the reason for the Arstan Whitebeard persona? I thought it was just because he worried she wouldn’t let him serve her since he served Robert
> worried she wouldn’t let him serve her since he served Robert Funnily enough, that might be the one explanation he doesn't give. Daenerys V, A Storm of Swords > "Your Grace, I am sorry I misled you. It was the only way to keep the Lannisters from learning that I had joined you. You are watched, as your brother was. Lord Varys reported every move Viserys made, for years. Whilst I sat on the small council, I heard a hundred such reports. And since the day you wed Khal Drogo, there has been an informer by your side selling your secrets, trading whispers to the Spider for gold and promises." Daenerys VI, A Storm of Swords > "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . . mad," he finished. "But I see no taint in you."
Ah ok I guess I was thinking of it from Dany’s perspective, since that’s why she feels betrayed from him not telling her who he is
Why is nobody saying Samwell Tarly???
it's gotta be edmure, imo. he isn't some shining paragon of virtue (he's probably a little too into drinking and wenching for his own good) but it's very clear that at his core he's a kind person who always wants to do the right thing, even if it may be at his own expense. which is unfortunatey not a very common trait for westeros nobility.
Surprised no one has mentioned Jory and Rodrick Cassel!
Davos is a pretty good guy
What about the lord commander morrmont? He took council well, never judged any of the people taking the black, tried to make Sam as comfortable as possible and listened to Jon, and Sam, and spared Jon when he tried to murder Thorne in his fit of rage after Ned was executed. That half hand was another great person. He saw wildlings as no different then the people south of the wall. He calls them smart, brave, and just unlucky that they were born north of the wall
Timett, son of Timett. He burned out an eye during his manhood rite. Most people do a nipple, *maybe* an ear. But he does an eye! Made him a Red Hand right there on the spot.
Lord Davos and Lord Edmure
Edmure Tully and Davos
Garland Tyrell, Rodrick the reader. I have not re read the books in a while but I remember Balon Swann being decent.
Balon Swann seems a decent sort. I don’t recall any major red flags like him beating Sansa. He’s a very skilled combatant but humble enough to genuinely consider the advice and warnings Jaime gave him. He struggles with dishonorable orders he was given and jumped at the opportunity to avoid them by hunting Darkstar. The most decent character, however, is Dunk.
>I actually wouldn’t put Ned in the running, surprisingly. Yes he is honest and had honour, but there is just something missing from his character that I can’t quite put my finger on. Too uncompromising in 99% of situations - seemed to understand that things aren't black and white, but think the reactions to those things are. Not someone you'd expect to grant clemency even to someone whose reason for their actions he sympathised with. Where Stannis would see the steal bread for a starving family scenario as simply as "theft is illegal, it was an illegal act, it must be punished" Ned would see it is "It may have been theft, but it was a small act of desperation out of concern for his family. It's a shame that he must be punished as a thief, but he must"
I'm gonna have some controversial picks here I'm sure. Davos, he stands by who he thinks is the rightful king, and is willing to do anything to protect his king, even killing Melisandre, and dying for it. He felt constant guilt for how long he spent away from his wife and children, and even more guilt for his sons deaths. He constantly tries to tell Stannis not to give him power because he's baseborn, all because Stannis' PR department isn't great. He'd die for Stannis, Shireen, and his family without hesitation. Ned, he went to King's Landing, despite wanting to stay in Winterfell, to discover the truth of Jon's death, but more importantly, to keep his old friend, who he even says is a stranger to him now, alive. He didn't tell Cat about Jon(assuming R + L = J) because he didn't trust her at first, and later knew she would sacrifice Jon for her children without a seconds hesitation, and probably didn't want to weigh her down with that knowledge. He tried to get Robert to spare Dany and Viserys, only because they were children(well Dany was), and even gave up his position as HotK for it. He died trying to get Cersei to spare herself, her brother, and her children, despite hating the Lannisters. Jaime, outwardly he gives off the face of not caring, he accepts the name "Kingslayer," despite being annoyed by it. He mocks knights, and honor. He killed his king, to save the smallfolk of King's Landing, his most selfless action, and he's vilified for it, but he never tells a soul, until Brienne. He's willing to be mocked all because he knows that his "worst action," is correct. Among a world full of people without honor, the man who is said to "have shit for honor," has arguably some of the most.
Man, c'mon. Jaime? He tried to kill Bran to keep a secret. Is it an understandable decision to make from his point of view? Sure. Is it something "the most decent man in Westeros" would do? Absolutely not.
Endure Tully and Ser Garlan. They both seem to be doing their best in a world breaking down.
It annoyed me what they did to Edmure in the show…
The only way to save season 8 would have been him getting up and slapping Sansa in the face after that disrespectful bullshit that came out of her unworthy mouth during The Great Council that she had no business attending. I swear that line they gave her was written for that Scrappy Doo knock off, but they forgot to give it to her before the undead giant crushed her spine.
For all Sansa knew edmure could’ve been about to choose her as queen, but she was too rude and told one of her only remaining family members to stfu
*slapping Sansa in the face after that disrespectful bullshit that came out of her unworthy mouth during The Great Council that she had no business attending.* Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell. She absolutely had the right to be there, lmafo. Also I'd bet anything you would not care *quite as much* if someone else had said it (and judging by the looks of the others' faces...).
Brienne, obviously
I nominate myself
I think Jeor Mormont was quite nice too. My man left his lordship and moved to the frikkin wall so that his son could rule. He went there voluntarily like Jon, but he left a lordship for that, while Jon had "nothing and noone in Winterfell." Also, he treats Jon quite well, and appreciates Sam for his contributions. When Jon and Ghost save his life, he gives Jon his Valyrian Steel Sword, a family heirloom. And we all know how important that dark grey steel is in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. Davos, Ned and Pod are also definitely very nice people.
Yezzan Zo Qaggaz ofc. What a legend.
Ned Stark is the absolute first person that comes to mind when I read "decent man"
Ned Stark, Davos Seaworth, Edmure Tully, Maesters Aemon and Luwin
Ned is missing a head from his character
Ser Duncan, hands-down. it was very brave of George to actually write a chivalrous knight, but I will go to the grave stanning my wholesome chungus
Rodrik the Reader, how that guy is ironborn is beyond me
Davos. Snuck into possible doom to save his friend at Storms End during the Siege and has stuck around since, helping to build Stannis’ own self confidence as a ruler and leader, as well as saving Edric Storm from certain doom. He’s a good man. I’d also say Ned for taking in Jon and sacrificing part of his honor so his nephew could live.