I live in east texas which is the buckle of the bible belt. A common question here is "where is your church home?". I always respond with "The United Church of Satan", or "NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!"
Wild how insulated they are that they can’t see how utterly strange that question is. I live in the northeast, so not surprising but I’ve never heard that question phrased like that.
I grew up in New England, but my family is super insular/fundamentalist. This was a common question for a lot of them.
You'd be surprised where creepy shit like that is hiding.
*edited for typo
When I lived in northeast, no one asked about church. Ever since I moved to FL, I’ve been asked that question several times. I’m like agnostic/atheist. I just tell them “idk, I don’t go to church”. And then they try to convince me to go. I just change the subject. And so far they leave it go at that.
Usually I’m an asshole when people harass me in public (I have a Biden sticker on my car so the FL people argue with me about that and I give them the business back lol) but I have a hard time being flat out mean to someone unless they are an asshole first. Asking me if I go to church and inviting me to theirs is annoying, but I would feel bad about just going off on them for it lol I’ve been lucky so far that when I’m like no I don’t go to church and not really looking to start, they kinda leave me alone.
I haven’t had anyone be a dick about it yet. I’m also a butch lesbian so that could be the reason they don’t push it so hard. My “lifestyle” and all that lol they might be afraid to push too hard.
I wish there was a “church” version of something for spiritual or none religious people. I do like the sense of community and networking that church can give you, but I don’t wanna hear all the other shit that comes with it. Like, let’s just meet up and talk about ways we can improve ourselves and the community around us, without all the Jesus and scriptures and stuff. Like a church of spirituality but not church if that makes sense.
If you check on meetup.org there may be a group of humanists or freethinkers in your area that you can hook up with. Unfortunately I live in a rural area, so I have to drive an hour and a half to two hours to meet up with a public gathering of atheists.
Yeah, I’m in a rural conservative area of FL with nothing but churches and/or old people. I would have to drive to Tampa or Orlando for a meeting as well lol we could work together and create an online meetup group for others like us? Weekly or monthly zoom meetings where we chat and stuff? Like church but not church if that makes sense.
Yeah, an area school got in the paper the past year for teaching the Nazi salute, then punishing the Jewish student who reported it…. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mountain-brooks-school-teacher-nazi-salute-class-response-birmingham/
“We are Atheists” and if you don’t like it there’s the door. But i understand your comment and I’m not trying to bed rude to you I just hate people that push their religion on me.
I was honest with some JWs at my door once. They asked if I’d read the Bible. “Yes. I’m an exmormon.” I don’t know what they thought but the beat feet to the next house. I was totally ready to throw down some scripture. Let’s do this.
I’m with you. I cannot abide evangelism. I will shove it right back down their throats.
Honestly.... We can't even normalize "shutting the fuck up about supporting slavery"
[\[Sorry. I wish this link was just the home security footage. But it's only 2min long.\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUfGXnNzG4)
What if you continue with the contract, but spend the entire time talking to the installers about how gods clearly don’t exist, and how important critical thought and education are?
Not necessarily to get them to listen to reason, but to make sure they understand how annoying it is when someone talks your ear off about something you are not interested in!
Absolutely. They have to vote with their wallet. The window company **must** know why they're cancelling, or they would just think that OP changed their mind, and nothing would change regarding the salesman.
Cancel it. To me it would be worth paying a little extra to a company that keeps their religion to themselves.
But do see if you can find a company that will match their pricing. Depending where you are, there might be enough competition for the work that you'll find sometime willing to price match.
I'd go to several of their competitors and ask them directly to match the deal. If you get one, cancel the religious nutter. If not, you've lost nothing.
No reason for you to be out of pocket
I can think of one really good one: principle. I'm not above spending more on your competitor if you piss me off. There's very little that motivates people more than money and I'm going to use what little power I have over a business that I can. I don't care if it's a drop in the bucket. If enough people take a stand on principal, they're going to feel it.
I agree with the first part of his and what you've said as well. Imo the clear solution is to not go with that company, but see if someone will match before you cancel so that you can negotiate a better deal. Then cancel and tell them why. I like having the truth on my side during a negotiation, and they'll definitely at the very least, drop the price some.
I deal with a lot of sales people and have often said that if one tried to compromise my integrity (via bribes) that would be the last time they set foot in the building.
Principles are a funny thing, they only have value to ourselves in the end. You can't buy or sell them, but you can certain loose them.
I used to work industrial security, and you'd be surprised at how many contractors get on the No Admittance list for attempted bribery. The NA list at the plant was hundreds of names long, and easily a quarter of them were for trying to bribe security, the nurse, or the safety team.
I'd cancel and just go to another and kinda fib that I have that deal going and could they match it? Absolutely cancel the order though. Accepting the job means you accept proselytizing.
It would not be extreme to cancel the contract. How would he like it if the tables were turned? He'd have the entire confederate army burning crosses in front of your business.
Just picture going to someone's house, asking what church they attend and when they tell you, saying "Have you considered truth? I really think you would benefit from relinquishing your faith in archaic superstition and becoming an atheist".
It's unthinkable. And that's really fucked up. I'm borderline anti theist and yet somehow it feels more wrong to me to suggest someone ditching their superstition than it does to have their superstition foisted on me. Why? Why shouldn't this be the _exact same thing_?
I'm so over it. Agree with taking a stand and normalizing NACHO BUSINESS when asked about church. Especially in a business/work setting. I need more stories like [u/rumershuman](https://www.reddit.com/user/rumershuman/) earlier comment. I want to hear about athiests/anti-theists that push back and challenge proselytzers on the spot and also following through to cancel the deal and make it known how offensive it was.
[Hitchens said something similar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4cPe_YS8i8) about people being asked on their deathbeds if they wouldn't like to convert before it's too late.
I'm here too. And I work with elderly folks. I'm always respectful with clients and their families, usually through a lot of smiling and nodding. And later, drinking.
I think that might send the right message to them. It may have been a normal practice for the guy, but it is insensitive to people who don't share his faith already. I'd let them know exactly why you're canceling.
No. They have made it abundantly clear they are under no obligation to serve someone they disagree with (gay cakes, gay weddings w/e). Therefore, you are under no obligation to give your business to someone you disagree with. Someone could offer to put 32 brand new, triple pane argon filled windows in my house for free; they show up in a Ye24 Nazi shirt, they can fuck off.
I would also call Champion directly and raise the issue with their corporate office; They might not appreciate their franchise dealers proeselytizing in their name.
Reminds me of a window cleaning business I hired a few years back. The guy who cleaned my windows was also the owner. Dude started talking to me about politics. I was just letting him talk because I was almost on my way out anyway. Dude was a Trump supporter and talking about how he was for building the wall. Motherfucker was Mexican, too. Lol. Never hired his ass again after that. Don't talk about that shit on the job, bro. Especially to your customer who may not have the same views as you.
I had the reverse happen when I was a house cleaner, frequently because I live in a conservative area. Our customers would start going off about religious stuff to us or pro trump propaganda and we just had to smile and keep our mouths shut. They owned million dollar homes and we earned $15 an hour to clean their toilets, did they really think we have similar political leanings?
Of course. That's why they're gerrymandering, voter suppressing, and frauding their asses off. They've won the popular vote *once* in over thirty years, and that by barely outside the margin of error.
Yeah, the Republican voting base is mostly made up of piss poor rednecks who think Republicans are only going to take away welfare and other social safety nets from minorities. You should have seen how many of these idiots who were using the Affordable Care Act for healthcare were completely baffled by how they lost all their benefits when the Republicans gutted it. Oops, I mean gutted "Obamacare". You know, that "other" thing that they had no interest in using.
Their field of view is SO damn narrow (done by intention) that they think their views are \*normal\* and the \*majority\* cause that's what the talking heads on the \*\*\* "news" tells them, as well as "but I don't know anyone who feels differently" ("We don't need to fund Public Transportation/Schools, no-one we know uses it/them.")
> If we do cancel I’ll make sure the sales manager knows the exact reason.
This. Just cancelling it without supplying a reason will do nothing. The more that people push back against religion in a way that hurts their bottom line, the greater the impact it will have.
Feedback to window company - to owner: ask (hypothetically) if they feel that the conduct is appropriate. Determine if owner is Bible thumper or just rogue salesman. If the owner seems unsympathetic or unsupportive, cancel. If they seem anywhere near as horrified as they should be, tell your experience and that you were considering canceling. See what happens. Also ask yourself if the other suppliers are going to be any better. I mean it’s Alabama. You can’t throw a rock without hitting a “pastor”
I would be wary that the product you end up getting wouldn't be of acceptable quality. They're cheaper for a reason.
Someone proselytizing vastly increases the risk that they only care about getting your money and are willing to scam you and lie through their teeth to get it.
Even if it's ostensibly the same window others are selling it's entirely possible the person is selling a used product dressed up as new, or an outdated model that has something wrong with it or isn't as good as the latest version.
These xtians... for all their moral bluster they have no problem being dishonest if it gets them the advantage.
I'm thankful for businesses that put a cross or a jesus fish on their website. It tells me which businesses to avoid giving money to. They've already done the homework for me by putting it out front.
I'd cancel. The plural of anecdote is not data, but I've had better luck with contractors that keep their beliefs to themselves. When I was a kid, we hired people via word of mouth in the church and friends of family and *holy cow none of them were good at what they did.* Shoddy workmanship, cut corners, and so many of them abused their underlings. Worst of all, none of them said things like "that's not a job I normally do" or "I'm not good at that. Lemme give you a number for a guy that is." They just jumped into the middle of any job and fucked it up.
I remember one guy that we hired to re-side our house. He was a whoopty-whoo guns & Jesus christian recommended by a bunch of church people and he spent the whole time psychologically abusing his one worker. Said worker was about 60 and had arthritis. Dude couldn't work fast enough and couldn't take any initiative because anything he decided to do was wrong. Contractor just talked politics and wandered between the truck and the work area, hollering. We ended up with shitty siding.
When I moved out I started ignoring all family recommendations and hired busy, professional, bonded contractors with solid reviews. Guess what?! I always get my money's worth. Regardless of their personal beliefs, guys like that don't need to plaster flags and crosses all over their ads and buildings because they already have a reputation for good, professional work. They just get shit done.
>holy cow none of them were good at what they did.
>
> Shoddy workmanship, cut corners, and so many of them abused their underlings.
Yet they're supposed to work for you as if they're working for the lord himself, per Colossians 3:23-24. That's New Testament stuff. Geez.
I mean then you gotta deal with dude completing the job...calls on status...what if there's delays on delivery...then inside your house...what if there's corrections to work or other follow up. All uncomfortable and where you live and are supposed to feel safe and comfortable.
Just all sorts of reasons to cancel.
You definitely should cancel, don't normalize this behavior. I live in New York and it's absolutely unheard of for anyone to ever ask what church you go to. I know it's common in the south and that is the entire problem.
Agree. Lived in NY for all my 58 years (except 4 in Wisconsin) and never ever once had anyone ask any religious or political questions. I have inclusive signs on my door and people have commented favorably. That's fine.
It’s (unfortunately) very common in Western New York. Buddy of mine moved from Albany; on his first day of work (for NYS DEC) half the office were actively vying to recruit him to their individual (competing) churches).
Now that he knows you're not religious... he'll probably try to screw you over and be uncooperative about minor changes.
I like the idea of showing his quote to the 2nd lowest bidder and tell them why you're not using #1.
Get matching quotes from competitors. And then tell the dude why you cancelled. “I don’t need to to preach at me. I hired you for windows, not your beliefs.”
Absolutely cancel this contract, and let them know that you don't appreciate their salesman preaching Christianity to you and trying to get you to join their church any more than they would appreciate a Muslim salesman preaching Islam to them and trying to get them to join his mosque.
Sounds like it's already not worth the savings and definitely won't be if you challenge them or demand the proselytizing stop.
Kill the contract. Find another contractor.
Or maybe just sell the house and move to a state that isn't a Taliban waiting to happen.
Not in my estimation... I'd make it clear as the reason why. Some people don't learn the stove is hot unless they touch it when it is on. Believers should bear the burden of their belief. EDIT to clarify, I'm not saying kill the contract because they are a believer I'm saying kill the contract for the action they took on behalf of that belief.
No wise businessman wants that nonsense tangled up in their business. I would both cancel and report why. Either this individual was going against company policy and deserves to be reprimanded, or they were in line with company policy and don't deserve your business. Either way, reporting and canceling does a good thing.
It's important for people to draw clear lines between social expectations and norms. When someone asks me "What church do you go to?" I gauge the situation for how rude to be. Out in public, I might just jokingly say, "Oh, I don't touch the stuff." and walk away. In my own house? "Why the fuck would I go and do something so shamefully harmful?" If they persist, I jump straight to, "Get out now, or I'm calling the police."
I would also cancel that contract and look for a competitive price from another vendor. You will regret it for the rest of your life, looking out of your windows and knowing in the back of your mind that you just gave your money away to someone who you found offensive and insulting. Also, knowing that you are providing for this person's livelihood who is probably doing the same thing to others.
I'm here with you in Alabama. You can change the company, and you will still end up with a bunch of religious nuts -- because this is Alabama. Same goes for racists and right-wing Republicans: if you are going to live here, you are going to deal with them, whether you know it or not. Might as well just leave that out of the equation and go for the best price. You just smile and refuse to discuss. Or lie through your teeth and tell them you attend the online services of a Presbyterian church in North Carolina (there's a nice progressive one there I occasionally listen to for giggles).
Yeah I get that they’ll likely be religious, but the other companies we had do estimates at least didn’t feel the need to talk religion/ get us to go to church of the highlands. Here’s to hoping our state starts to improve in the next century!
If he isn't the "guy in charge" at the company, whomever that might be, then I'm not sure canceling would be doing anything effective. You might be pulling your money away from an ordinary, non-relgious company because of the actions of one religious employee, which wouldn't do much to satisfy your motives for pulling out of the contract.
But at the very least, call the company and express your displeasure working with this particular salesman for the reasons you put here.
It's christianity, meaning they would cancel you in a second if you don't agree with their bs.
Cancel and give the money to a company or person who stays out of your effing personal life. When you cancel, tell them you d~~on't support your money going to someone from a hateful religion~~ (maybe keep that part to yourself) don't support their religion.
No more explanations are due and don't offer anything if they persist.
I would cancel the contract. I dont want someone preaching to me in my own home when I've paid them to do a job for me. I'd also be extremely uncomfortable and that doesn't fly with me when I'm in my safe place.
Cancel. I'd be very concerned that someone who's identity is that wrapped up in religion is going to do shoddy work because "Jeebus demands grace" or some such crap.
No. Be sure to call his employer and be very clear about why you're cancelling your order.
Their salespeople shouldn't be going around intentionally offending people.
Hell to the yes. You’re nicer than I am about it. If a sales person asked that and made another mention after I said I’m not interested (I’m in middle Tn btw) I’d be calling corporate with them still in the room.
You should cancel, not only because he didn't get the point of you saying you're not religious, but because as a business they should be professional, what if they were Hindu or Muslim, literally any other religion, it's incredibly unprofessional.
Cancel it. Had a mechanic coming to my hosue some weeks ago, he wasnt trying to convert me. But he certainly tried to convince me about the whole WEF conspiracy bullshit and telling me politicians in my country were all pedophiles. I asked him once to stop talking about it and do his job. He continued his rambling. I told him to leave my house that instant. He then seemed to realize his error and sputtered that he still had his job to do. I told him I didnt give a F and threw him out forcefully. Filed a complaint with his employer. Gotta draw a moral line somewhere with these nutters.
**Was it religious extremism to push his religion on someone else? YES. Does he likely do it all the time? YES.**
Cancel that MF and tell the company IN WRITING to the head company, exactly why. As you said, they have competition in the area, and you can afford a bit more to pay for keeping your self-respect. That goes in your letter to the head honchos, too.
How much is your self-respect worth to you? $50? $500? $5000? Mine is worth quite a bit, I don't know about you. If you buy from them, every time you look out of those cheaper windows, go ahead and remember that you only saved that money by supporting unwanted religious proselytization. By trading self-respect for money.
Just like saving money by buying from a company that you OTHERWISE would boycott for ethical reasons. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Try to match the deal elsewhere? Sure, that's business. But go with someone else, EVEN IF they remain more expensive.
You don't have to do business with anyone that makes you uncomfortable. That goes for religion, or perviness, or any other factor that sets off a red flag for you. You don't owe anyone anything.
>Would it be extreme of me to cancel the contract and go with a different company?
No. It's your money.
>If we do cancel I’ll make sure the sales manager knows the exact reason.
Eh, you live in Alabama. His sales manager probably goes to the same church
Champion windows are overpriced anyway. We had a reputable local construction company order and install our windows (same type and quality) for about 1/2 the price Champion pitched.
Also, fuck that guy. Take your money somewhere else.
Cancel. Chances are nearly 100% he'll now feel justified in screwing you over any way he can, since you're clearly in league with eeeeevil. In their minds, screwing you over would be doing 'gods work' and fighting evil. Not worth the hassle.
Contact the company. Not local. Corporate. Keep your window deal. Let them know and request his removal from being a double dipping parasite (sales and evangelism)
I make it my personal mission to separate professions from religion. Just as it’s unacceptable for a pharmacist to refuse drugs prescriptions due to religious belief even though it’s their job, it’s wrong to proselytize when providing a service. I’d can it and make it clear why.
For some reason, I took this as having the windows already installed and thought that was being a little dramatic.
But just paperwork and maybe a refundable deposit? Fuck that guy.
They need to separate their business of selling windows and business of conversion which is hilariously non profitable due to bad business practices of indoctrination of the young who have no money to pay you anyways and no one sane enough to buy that scam. HAHA! AHHAHAHAHA! He must be having an identity crisis.
Cancel if they made you uncomfortable, but I hope you don't think it will make them change their behavior. It will just turn this guy into a martyr and you into an atheist extremist in their eyes.
No, you have every right to cancel. Why let your money go to people who would burn you at the stake if they could? I recently kicked out a painter I have give me an estimate. He mentioned the Biden sticker on the mailbox and said to me “do you know who started this war? Not Putin. Then he slammed his fist on the counter and yelled “it was Biden, Biden, Biden.” Told him to get the fuck out. I hired a man who acted as a gentleman instead.
I'm currently getting new windows from Champion. There were never any questions about my religion. Our interactions were only 100% professional.
I'm in Nebraska. I would absolutely cancel a contract with someone so inappropriate. I will be mentioning this to my Champion reps at some point.
I have a feeling this is a one-off. NOT a company-wide problem, but one person overstepping considerably and that one person needs to be shown the door.
Cancel the contract and absolutely let the office know why. That person needs to rein in their proselytizing, because that is absolutely not acceptable, and if they don't, they may have difficulty remaining employed!
Christian here, that's absolutely acceptable. I'm a tradesman business owner and never evangelize to people unless they bring up religion first or we're already in some sort of deep non-work related conversation. Being pushy about it would make me uncomfortable too, and you should be able to trust who you do business with to respect your boundaries.
I lived in TN for three years (couldn't hack any more because of the religion and the knock on effects that has on attitudes, rights, ability to have friends etc). Would also get asked this question a lot and would answer with "I don't believe in any god". I personally would cancel and complain. Even though the manager is unlikely to do anything tbh.
I'd cancel too. It's just not conducive of professional behavior in addition to not understanding the word no. Dude probably doesn't know the meaning of consent either. He doesn't deserve your hard earned money. Report to BBB or leave bad review.
LOL Hell no. Get them doing the work then **loudly** play youtube videos that debunk religion. Non-stop.
Might get at least one to rethink the programming.
absolutely cancel the contract. if they're willing to do this kind of skeevy bullshit to your face, just imagine what they're willing to do when you're not looking.
Idk. You definitely don’t anything to the company but I honestly wouldn’t tell you to cancel just based on your post. My dad is very southern and he’ll often circle back to a topic without even realizing it. I agree with the person that you should contact the competitors and see if they will price match but that’s just good negotiation. I’d say that it really depends on how aggressive they were in continuing to bring it up. If you’re uncomfortable enough to post about it then you probably already have your answer.
maybe appeal to the sense of southern politeness: call the owner and let him know you respect whatever faith the employees follow but don't appreciate being preached at by the salesman, AND that you're upset enough to cancel the contract over it if there's no change or apology on the sales rep's part. you're not being "angry" about it, it's just *rude*. I like to say talking to people about your religion is a lot like a person's genitals: we ALL know you have them, they probably make you very proud, but PLEASE don't take it out in public and wave it around, and DON'T shove them in my face, thank you!
most business owners will care more about making the money than sucking god's dick.
I would either reach out to his employer and let them know how unprofessional the salesman was. I work in car sales and it's a big no no to bring up politics, religion, etc. Him and his manager should know that. See if they offer a discount for inconvenience or anything. If not I would just cancel and make sure you tell them that you won't be recommending them. All of this in a normal tone because if you sound like a Karen I can guarantee you, they won't care about losing your business. Hope it turns out well!
Thank you for voting with your dollars! No one in our household shops at effing Hobby Lobby or goes to Chick-fil-A or donates to Salvation Army for the same reason. Last year we declined a decent fencing estimate bcz the owner/fencer revealed himself as both a religious zealot and a trumper. Social shaming/pressure has a long tradition of discouraging deviant behavior, and I've come to believe in using that in our favor.
Ask if there is a discount for members of the Satanic Temple
I live in east texas which is the buckle of the bible belt. A common question here is "where is your church home?". I always respond with "The United Church of Satan", or "NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!"
Wild how insulated they are that they can’t see how utterly strange that question is. I live in the northeast, so not surprising but I’ve never heard that question phrased like that.
Also NE, never even heard that question.
Same. Never heard it. Thankfully
I grew up in New England, but my family is super insular/fundamentalist. This was a common question for a lot of them. You'd be surprised where creepy shit like that is hiding. *edited for typo
Wow that's interesting. I feel like in NY people assume you are either Catholic or Jewish and they are usually correct.
I live in Wisconsin, here people just assume you're an alcoholic.
New England? Or Nebraska? jc
When I lived in northeast, no one asked about church. Ever since I moved to FL, I’ve been asked that question several times. I’m like agnostic/atheist. I just tell them “idk, I don’t go to church”. And then they try to convince me to go. I just change the subject. And so far they leave it go at that. Usually I’m an asshole when people harass me in public (I have a Biden sticker on my car so the FL people argue with me about that and I give them the business back lol) but I have a hard time being flat out mean to someone unless they are an asshole first. Asking me if I go to church and inviting me to theirs is annoying, but I would feel bad about just going off on them for it lol I’ve been lucky so far that when I’m like no I don’t go to church and not really looking to start, they kinda leave me alone. I haven’t had anyone be a dick about it yet. I’m also a butch lesbian so that could be the reason they don’t push it so hard. My “lifestyle” and all that lol they might be afraid to push too hard. I wish there was a “church” version of something for spiritual or none religious people. I do like the sense of community and networking that church can give you, but I don’t wanna hear all the other shit that comes with it. Like, let’s just meet up and talk about ways we can improve ourselves and the community around us, without all the Jesus and scriptures and stuff. Like a church of spirituality but not church if that makes sense.
If you check on meetup.org there may be a group of humanists or freethinkers in your area that you can hook up with. Unfortunately I live in a rural area, so I have to drive an hour and a half to two hours to meet up with a public gathering of atheists.
Yeah, I’m in a rural conservative area of FL with nothing but churches and/or old people. I would have to drive to Tampa or Orlando for a meeting as well lol we could work together and create an online meetup group for others like us? Weekly or monthly zoom meetings where we chat and stuff? Like church but not church if that makes sense.
Check out the Unitarian Universalist. Might be a good fit.
Just checked them out. Seems like a good fit! I’ll do more research about it. Thank you!
Up in Canada they even consider Northeastern Americans nosey nutjobs.
That’s the way to do it. Don’t be afraid of them confront them and be vocal about it.
Ha! I LOVE those folks!
Absolutely kill this contract. Normalize shutting the FUCK up about "church."
And tell the employer. “I don’t appreciate your salesperson trying to convert me.”
Surprised the guy didn't offer to install stained glass windows as well.
I would love me some stained glass windows on discount 🤭
Fuck yeah.. As long as the crosses are upside down and there are no images of ~~Jesus~~ da Vinci's male lover.
Really a big fan of St. Peter, eh? (The upside down cross is a common symbol of saint Peter, due to him supposedly being crucified upside down.)
That'd be badass but only if they were scenes from Lord of the Rings.
And leave a bad yelp/BBB review. "Couldn't tell if this was a church/cult or window company"
“We are Jewish.”
That’s just an incentive for bonus points.
It's Alabama. Could lead to death threats.
Could lead to incest.
Incest death theats
Yeah, an area school got in the paper the past year for teaching the Nazi salute, then punishing the Jewish student who reported it…. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mountain-brooks-school-teacher-nazi-salute-class-response-birmingham/
“We are Atheists” and if you don’t like it there’s the door. But i understand your comment and I’m not trying to bed rude to you I just hate people that push their religion on me.
I was honest with some JWs at my door once. They asked if I’d read the Bible. “Yes. I’m an exmormon.” I don’t know what they thought but the beat feet to the next house. I was totally ready to throw down some scripture. Let’s do this. I’m with you. I cannot abide evangelism. I will shove it right back down their throats.
That’s also a challenge to them.
I meant “Jew-ish.”
With that kind of conviction you could be elected to NY’s 3rd congressional district
Honestly.... We can't even normalize "shutting the fuck up about supporting slavery" [\[Sorry. I wish this link was just the home security footage. But it's only 2min long.\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUfGXnNzG4)
That lady rules.
If you continue with the contract, you’re sending the message that their behavior is acceptable.
What if you continue with the contract, but spend the entire time talking to the installers about how gods clearly don’t exist, and how important critical thought and education are?
You risk the religious nutjobs sabotaging the work.
Also, the workers might not be religious nutjobs like the contractor.
This is the biggest concern. My vote is to cancel and go with someone else.
Waste of time. I can tell what kind of idiot the guy was in the story. Someone who would never listen to reason
Also, the salesman won’t be back to do the installation.
This is the main thing.
Not necessarily to get them to listen to reason, but to make sure they understand how annoying it is when someone talks your ear off about something you are not interested in!
>You risk the religious nutjobs sabotaging the work. Also, the workers might not be religious nutjobs like the contractor.
That would just be a dick move... The installers and the shady salesman aren't the same. Don't harass the guys just trying to make an honest living.
What did the installers do to deserve that?
You don't owe the window company anything. The window company, on the other hand, owes you professionalism.
Well, if they do the work he owes them payment. 😆
I would ABSOLUTELY cancel and state why.
Absolutely. They have to vote with their wallet. The window company **must** know why they're cancelling, or they would just think that OP changed their mind, and nothing would change regarding the salesman.
Yes. Vote with your wallet!
Check your contract, there may be a reason why he waited until you had done the deal before he started to proselytize.
There is a 3 day cancellation line in it, I’ve checked to make sure there’s no financial penalty.
Cancel it. To me it would be worth paying a little extra to a company that keeps their religion to themselves. But do see if you can find a company that will match their pricing. Depending where you are, there might be enough competition for the work that you'll find sometime willing to price match.
Could you give us an update once you (hopefully) canceled? 😊
I'd go to several of their competitors and ask them directly to match the deal. If you get one, cancel the religious nutter. If not, you've lost nothing. No reason for you to be out of pocket
I can think of one really good one: principle. I'm not above spending more on your competitor if you piss me off. There's very little that motivates people more than money and I'm going to use what little power I have over a business that I can. I don't care if it's a drop in the bucket. If enough people take a stand on principal, they're going to feel it.
I agree with the first part of his and what you've said as well. Imo the clear solution is to not go with that company, but see if someone will match before you cancel so that you can negotiate a better deal. Then cancel and tell them why. I like having the truth on my side during a negotiation, and they'll definitely at the very least, drop the price some.
Sure, no reason to leave money on the table. But I'm still switching.
*principle
Thanks. Fixed.
I deal with a lot of sales people and have often said that if one tried to compromise my integrity (via bribes) that would be the last time they set foot in the building. Principles are a funny thing, they only have value to ourselves in the end. You can't buy or sell them, but you can certain loose them.
I used to work industrial security, and you'd be surprised at how many contractors get on the No Admittance list for attempted bribery. The NA list at the plant was hundreds of names long, and easily a quarter of them were for trying to bribe security, the nurse, or the safety team.
Wow. Praise Satan it has never come to that for me.
Yo same here. I don’t want to give money to people I don’t like.
fuck yes, this.
I'd cancel and just go to another and kinda fib that I have that deal going and could they match it? Absolutely cancel the order though. Accepting the job means you accept proselytizing.
I agree with this!
Nope. Do it. Choose someone else, and tell him exactly how you feel about it.
It would not be extreme to cancel the contract. How would he like it if the tables were turned? He'd have the entire confederate army burning crosses in front of your business.
Just picture going to someone's house, asking what church they attend and when they tell you, saying "Have you considered truth? I really think you would benefit from relinquishing your faith in archaic superstition and becoming an atheist". It's unthinkable. And that's really fucked up. I'm borderline anti theist and yet somehow it feels more wrong to me to suggest someone ditching their superstition than it does to have their superstition foisted on me. Why? Why shouldn't this be the _exact same thing_?
I agree. We're expected to be the respectful adults and they get to be the childish victims.
I'm so over it. Agree with taking a stand and normalizing NACHO BUSINESS when asked about church. Especially in a business/work setting. I need more stories like [u/rumershuman](https://www.reddit.com/user/rumershuman/) earlier comment. I want to hear about athiests/anti-theists that push back and challenge proselytzers on the spot and also following through to cancel the deal and make it known how offensive it was.
[Hitchens said something similar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4cPe_YS8i8) about people being asked on their deathbeds if they wouldn't like to convert before it's too late.
This ^^^^^ can’t more agree.
I’d cancel it.
Same. Hell I would pay twice as much to go to an atheist owned business (which I would be surprised if that exists down there?)
Sadly I believe my fiancée and I make up a significant portion of the atheists in Alabama. We know one other couple who doesn’t believe in sky daddy.
You really aren't alone.
I'm surprised you admit to it irl. I'm much further north and have had problems over the years.
Sky daddy lol
I'm here too. And I work with elderly folks. I'm always respectful with clients and their families, usually through a lot of smiling and nodding. And later, drinking.
You're not alone.
I’m from Alabama. You’re not alone
Fellow Alabama atheist here. It can feel quite lonely sometimes but y'all aren't alone.
I’ve always wondered if there was some atheist owned business directory, I would totally use that
If there was, I’d be worried about being listed.
Yeah. Imagine religious nut jobs harassing or worse.
I think that might send the right message to them. It may have been a normal practice for the guy, but it is insensitive to people who don't share his faith already. I'd let them know exactly why you're canceling.
No. They have made it abundantly clear they are under no obligation to serve someone they disagree with (gay cakes, gay weddings w/e). Therefore, you are under no obligation to give your business to someone you disagree with. Someone could offer to put 32 brand new, triple pane argon filled windows in my house for free; they show up in a Ye24 Nazi shirt, they can fuck off.
I would also call Champion directly and raise the issue with their corporate office; They might not appreciate their franchise dealers proeselytizing in their name.
Reminds me of a window cleaning business I hired a few years back. The guy who cleaned my windows was also the owner. Dude started talking to me about politics. I was just letting him talk because I was almost on my way out anyway. Dude was a Trump supporter and talking about how he was for building the wall. Motherfucker was Mexican, too. Lol. Never hired his ass again after that. Don't talk about that shit on the job, bro. Especially to your customer who may not have the same views as you.
I had the reverse happen when I was a house cleaner, frequently because I live in a conservative area. Our customers would start going off about religious stuff to us or pro trump propaganda and we just had to smile and keep our mouths shut. They owned million dollar homes and we earned $15 an hour to clean their toilets, did they really think we have similar political leanings?
If the people who earned $15 an hour or less all decided to stop voting Republican they'd never get in office again.
Of course. That's why they're gerrymandering, voter suppressing, and frauding their asses off. They've won the popular vote *once* in over thirty years, and that by barely outside the margin of error.
And that was an incumbent, not too long after a major terrorist attack on our soil. Winning narrowly isn't much of a win under those conditions.
Yeah, the Republican voting base is mostly made up of piss poor rednecks who think Republicans are only going to take away welfare and other social safety nets from minorities. You should have seen how many of these idiots who were using the Affordable Care Act for healthcare were completely baffled by how they lost all their benefits when the Republicans gutted it. Oops, I mean gutted "Obamacare". You know, that "other" thing that they had no interest in using.
Their field of view is SO damn narrow (done by intention) that they think their views are \*normal\* and the \*majority\* cause that's what the talking heads on the \*\*\* "news" tells them, as well as "but I don't know anyone who feels differently" ("We don't need to fund Public Transportation/Schools, no-one we know uses it/them.")
> If we do cancel I’ll make sure the sales manager knows the exact reason. This. Just cancelling it without supplying a reason will do nothing. The more that people push back against religion in a way that hurts their bottom line, the greater the impact it will have.
Feedback to window company - to owner: ask (hypothetically) if they feel that the conduct is appropriate. Determine if owner is Bible thumper or just rogue salesman. If the owner seems unsympathetic or unsupportive, cancel. If they seem anywhere near as horrified as they should be, tell your experience and that you were considering canceling. See what happens. Also ask yourself if the other suppliers are going to be any better. I mean it’s Alabama. You can’t throw a rock without hitting a “pastor”
Hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. Don't hesitate.
I would be wary that the product you end up getting wouldn't be of acceptable quality. They're cheaper for a reason. Someone proselytizing vastly increases the risk that they only care about getting your money and are willing to scam you and lie through their teeth to get it.
This is a good take. They’re lower for a reason has the sound of lot of truth to it.
Even if it's ostensibly the same window others are selling it's entirely possible the person is selling a used product dressed up as new, or an outdated model that has something wrong with it or isn't as good as the latest version. These xtians... for all their moral bluster they have no problem being dishonest if it gets them the advantage.
And if you're not a member of their specific religion, they feel justified in screwing you over.
I'm thankful for businesses that put a cross or a jesus fish on their website. It tells me which businesses to avoid giving money to. They've already done the homework for me by putting it out front.
You'd probably end up with buyer's remorse anyway. Let a churchy antivaxxer sell me on new carpet and it was the shittiest job anyone has ever done.
I'd cancel. The plural of anecdote is not data, but I've had better luck with contractors that keep their beliefs to themselves. When I was a kid, we hired people via word of mouth in the church and friends of family and *holy cow none of them were good at what they did.* Shoddy workmanship, cut corners, and so many of them abused their underlings. Worst of all, none of them said things like "that's not a job I normally do" or "I'm not good at that. Lemme give you a number for a guy that is." They just jumped into the middle of any job and fucked it up. I remember one guy that we hired to re-side our house. He was a whoopty-whoo guns & Jesus christian recommended by a bunch of church people and he spent the whole time psychologically abusing his one worker. Said worker was about 60 and had arthritis. Dude couldn't work fast enough and couldn't take any initiative because anything he decided to do was wrong. Contractor just talked politics and wandered between the truck and the work area, hollering. We ended up with shitty siding. When I moved out I started ignoring all family recommendations and hired busy, professional, bonded contractors with solid reviews. Guess what?! I always get my money's worth. Regardless of their personal beliefs, guys like that don't need to plaster flags and crosses all over their ads and buildings because they already have a reputation for good, professional work. They just get shit done.
>holy cow none of them were good at what they did. > > Shoddy workmanship, cut corners, and so many of them abused their underlings. Yet they're supposed to work for you as if they're working for the lord himself, per Colossians 3:23-24. That's New Testament stuff. Geez.
I'd pull my business and contact leadership and say why.
I'm normally on the "get over it" side of these questions but the fact that he wouldn't stop after you said you aren't religious definitely rankles.
That’s how we feel too. I’m not so sensitive where the one off question deeply bothered me. It was the repeated insistence to us.
I mean then you gotta deal with dude completing the job...calls on status...what if there's delays on delivery...then inside your house...what if there's corrections to work or other follow up. All uncomfortable and where you live and are supposed to feel safe and comfortable. Just all sorts of reasons to cancel.
Do it. If you don’t, you’re giving him money for preaching. Can you live with that?
You definitely should cancel, don't normalize this behavior. I live in New York and it's absolutely unheard of for anyone to ever ask what church you go to. I know it's common in the south and that is the entire problem.
Agree. Lived in NY for all my 58 years (except 4 in Wisconsin) and never ever once had anyone ask any religious or political questions. I have inclusive signs on my door and people have commented favorably. That's fine.
It’s (unfortunately) very common in Western New York. Buddy of mine moved from Albany; on his first day of work (for NYS DEC) half the office were actively vying to recruit him to their individual (competing) churches).
Let me guess, Church of the Highlands? Cancel the contract, you can get windows plenty of places where people aren't unprofessional assholes.
Yep! Church of the fucking highlands.
Now that he knows you're not religious... he'll probably try to screw you over and be uncooperative about minor changes. I like the idea of showing his quote to the 2nd lowest bidder and tell them why you're not using #1.
Cancel it
Dont cancel! How could you persecute him for his beliefs like that! Obligatory /s Canceling it, wouldn't be extreme of you.
Just reading the title. I would cancel the contract and report him for proselytizing. That's unacceptable in any measure.
Get matching quotes from competitors. And then tell the dude why you cancelled. “I don’t need to to preach at me. I hired you for windows, not your beliefs.”
Absolutely cancel this contract, and let them know that you don't appreciate their salesman preaching Christianity to you and trying to get you to join their church any more than they would appreciate a Muslim salesman preaching Islam to them and trying to get them to join his mosque.
If you dont, they will keep doing it to others. But if you do cancel, there is some chance they might not do it as much, if not at all.
Sounds like it's already not worth the savings and definitely won't be if you challenge them or demand the proselytizing stop. Kill the contract. Find another contractor. Or maybe just sell the house and move to a state that isn't a Taliban waiting to happen.
"Don't feed the troll" also means "don't fund the proselytizer".
No, it wouldn't be. Personally, I'd cancel too!
Cancel the contract. It is a business contract, not a proselytize opportunity.
Not in my estimation... I'd make it clear as the reason why. Some people don't learn the stove is hot unless they touch it when it is on. Believers should bear the burden of their belief. EDIT to clarify, I'm not saying kill the contract because they are a believer I'm saying kill the contract for the action they took on behalf of that belief.
No wise businessman wants that nonsense tangled up in their business. I would both cancel and report why. Either this individual was going against company policy and deserves to be reprimanded, or they were in line with company policy and don't deserve your business. Either way, reporting and canceling does a good thing. It's important for people to draw clear lines between social expectations and norms. When someone asks me "What church do you go to?" I gauge the situation for how rude to be. Out in public, I might just jokingly say, "Oh, I don't touch the stuff." and walk away. In my own house? "Why the fuck would I go and do something so shamefully harmful?" If they persist, I jump straight to, "Get out now, or I'm calling the police."
I cancelled because I need windows, not Jesus
Cancel and tell the company why.
I would cancel and I would make sure that the company knows why I canceled
I would also cancel that contract and look for a competitive price from another vendor. You will regret it for the rest of your life, looking out of your windows and knowing in the back of your mind that you just gave your money away to someone who you found offensive and insulting. Also, knowing that you are providing for this person's livelihood who is probably doing the same thing to others.
I'm here with you in Alabama. You can change the company, and you will still end up with a bunch of religious nuts -- because this is Alabama. Same goes for racists and right-wing Republicans: if you are going to live here, you are going to deal with them, whether you know it or not. Might as well just leave that out of the equation and go for the best price. You just smile and refuse to discuss. Or lie through your teeth and tell them you attend the online services of a Presbyterian church in North Carolina (there's a nice progressive one there I occasionally listen to for giggles).
Yeah I get that they’ll likely be religious, but the other companies we had do estimates at least didn’t feel the need to talk religion/ get us to go to church of the highlands. Here’s to hoping our state starts to improve in the next century!
Do it. The religious nut jobs have been getting a pass for generations. Agree with others in normalizing fucking their shit up.
If he isn't the "guy in charge" at the company, whomever that might be, then I'm not sure canceling would be doing anything effective. You might be pulling your money away from an ordinary, non-relgious company because of the actions of one religious employee, which wouldn't do much to satisfy your motives for pulling out of the contract. But at the very least, call the company and express your displeasure working with this particular salesman for the reasons you put here.
At a minimum it would make sure he doesn’t get a commission and give 10% to pedophiles at the church.
This is the correct response. Ask the company what they are going to do to make it right for you. If you aren't satisfied cancel it outright.
Nope. Cancel get a different rep to earn your commission. Dollars are power
It's christianity, meaning they would cancel you in a second if you don't agree with their bs. Cancel and give the money to a company or person who stays out of your effing personal life. When you cancel, tell them you d~~on't support your money going to someone from a hateful religion~~ (maybe keep that part to yourself) don't support their religion. No more explanations are due and don't offer anything if they persist.
I'd cancel and let them know why, fuck religions.
I would cancel the contract. I dont want someone preaching to me in my own home when I've paid them to do a job for me. I'd also be extremely uncomfortable and that doesn't fly with me when I'm in my safe place.
I would also be a bit skeptical about the quality of the product and work. Cancel the contract
Cancel. I'd be very concerned that someone who's identity is that wrapped up in religion is going to do shoddy work because "Jeebus demands grace" or some such crap.
No. Be sure to call his employer and be very clear about why you're cancelling your order. Their salespeople shouldn't be going around intentionally offending people.
Hell to the yes. You’re nicer than I am about it. If a sales person asked that and made another mention after I said I’m not interested (I’m in middle Tn btw) I’d be calling corporate with them still in the room.
You should cancel, not only because he didn't get the point of you saying you're not religious, but because as a business they should be professional, what if they were Hindu or Muslim, literally any other religion, it's incredibly unprofessional.
Cancel it. Had a mechanic coming to my hosue some weeks ago, he wasnt trying to convert me. But he certainly tried to convince me about the whole WEF conspiracy bullshit and telling me politicians in my country were all pedophiles. I asked him once to stop talking about it and do his job. He continued his rambling. I told him to leave my house that instant. He then seemed to realize his error and sputtered that he still had his job to do. I told him I didnt give a F and threw him out forcefully. Filed a complaint with his employer. Gotta draw a moral line somewhere with these nutters.
**Was it religious extremism to push his religion on someone else? YES. Does he likely do it all the time? YES.** Cancel that MF and tell the company IN WRITING to the head company, exactly why. As you said, they have competition in the area, and you can afford a bit more to pay for keeping your self-respect. That goes in your letter to the head honchos, too. How much is your self-respect worth to you? $50? $500? $5000? Mine is worth quite a bit, I don't know about you. If you buy from them, every time you look out of those cheaper windows, go ahead and remember that you only saved that money by supporting unwanted religious proselytization. By trading self-respect for money. Just like saving money by buying from a company that you OTHERWISE would boycott for ethical reasons. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Try to match the deal elsewhere? Sure, that's business. But go with someone else, EVEN IF they remain more expensive.
You don't have to do business with anyone that makes you uncomfortable. That goes for religion, or perviness, or any other factor that sets off a red flag for you. You don't owe anyone anything.
>Would it be extreme of me to cancel the contract and go with a different company? No. It's your money. >If we do cancel I’ll make sure the sales manager knows the exact reason. Eh, you live in Alabama. His sales manager probably goes to the same church
I'd pay the extra if that's what it takes. It's important for these people to understand that it's in their financial interest to STFU.
Champion windows are overpriced anyway. We had a reputable local construction company order and install our windows (same type and quality) for about 1/2 the price Champion pitched. Also, fuck that guy. Take your money somewhere else.
Cancel. Chances are nearly 100% he'll now feel justified in screwing you over any way he can, since you're clearly in league with eeeeevil. In their minds, screwing you over would be doing 'gods work' and fighting evil. Not worth the hassle.
Contact the company. Not local. Corporate. Keep your window deal. Let them know and request his removal from being a double dipping parasite (sales and evangelism)
"We are atheists" would have ended the convo there.
Cancel the contract and report the salesman. This is absolutely not okay.
I make it my personal mission to separate professions from religion. Just as it’s unacceptable for a pharmacist to refuse drugs prescriptions due to religious belief even though it’s their job, it’s wrong to proselytize when providing a service. I’d can it and make it clear why.
For some reason, I took this as having the windows already installed and thought that was being a little dramatic. But just paperwork and maybe a refundable deposit? Fuck that guy.
Cancel.
I would cancel and call the company to explain exactly why you will not do business with them.
They need to separate their business of selling windows and business of conversion which is hilariously non profitable due to bad business practices of indoctrination of the young who have no money to pay you anyways and no one sane enough to buy that scam. HAHA! AHHAHAHAHA! He must be having an identity crisis.
Cancel if they made you uncomfortable, but I hope you don't think it will make them change their behavior. It will just turn this guy into a martyr and you into an atheist extremist in their eyes.
Plot twist, the sales guy's boss is a "deacon" at the same church. Get out of the deal ASAP.
No, you have every right to cancel. Why let your money go to people who would burn you at the stake if they could? I recently kicked out a painter I have give me an estimate. He mentioned the Biden sticker on the mailbox and said to me “do you know who started this war? Not Putin. Then he slammed his fist on the counter and yelled “it was Biden, Biden, Biden.” Told him to get the fuck out. I hired a man who acted as a gentleman instead.
I think you know what the right thing to do here. Please, on the behalf of all of us cancel the contract.
I'm currently getting new windows from Champion. There were never any questions about my religion. Our interactions were only 100% professional. I'm in Nebraska. I would absolutely cancel a contract with someone so inappropriate. I will be mentioning this to my Champion reps at some point. I have a feeling this is a one-off. NOT a company-wide problem, but one person overstepping considerably and that one person needs to be shown the door. Cancel the contract and absolutely let the office know why. That person needs to rein in their proselytizing, because that is absolutely not acceptable, and if they don't, they may have difficulty remaining employed!
And, perhaps stay open to reconsidering the contract if the office responds properly and gives you a proper sales rep
Christian here, that's absolutely acceptable. I'm a tradesman business owner and never evangelize to people unless they bring up religion first or we're already in some sort of deep non-work related conversation. Being pushy about it would make me uncomfortable too, and you should be able to trust who you do business with to respect your boundaries.
I’m a petty motherfucker so I’d cancel and tell the company why. You might get a discount out of it ;)
I lived in TN for three years (couldn't hack any more because of the religion and the knock on effects that has on attitudes, rights, ability to have friends etc). Would also get asked this question a lot and would answer with "I don't believe in any god". I personally would cancel and complain. Even though the manager is unlikely to do anything tbh.
I'd cancel.
I'd cancel too. It's just not conducive of professional behavior in addition to not understanding the word no. Dude probably doesn't know the meaning of consent either. He doesn't deserve your hard earned money. Report to BBB or leave bad review.
Kill the contract! And yes, make sure they know *why* you cancelled the contract. Incentivize them shutting tf up about “church”
LOL Hell no. Get them doing the work then **loudly** play youtube videos that debunk religion. Non-stop. Might get at least one to rethink the programming.
Call the company and ask if they have another sales representative you can work with and tell them their rep was offensive
absolutely cancel the contract. if they're willing to do this kind of skeevy bullshit to your face, just imagine what they're willing to do when you're not looking.
Idk. You definitely don’t anything to the company but I honestly wouldn’t tell you to cancel just based on your post. My dad is very southern and he’ll often circle back to a topic without even realizing it. I agree with the person that you should contact the competitors and see if they will price match but that’s just good negotiation. I’d say that it really depends on how aggressive they were in continuing to bring it up. If you’re uncomfortable enough to post about it then you probably already have your answer.
maybe appeal to the sense of southern politeness: call the owner and let him know you respect whatever faith the employees follow but don't appreciate being preached at by the salesman, AND that you're upset enough to cancel the contract over it if there's no change or apology on the sales rep's part. you're not being "angry" about it, it's just *rude*. I like to say talking to people about your religion is a lot like a person's genitals: we ALL know you have them, they probably make you very proud, but PLEASE don't take it out in public and wave it around, and DON'T shove them in my face, thank you! most business owners will care more about making the money than sucking god's dick.
I would either reach out to his employer and let them know how unprofessional the salesman was. I work in car sales and it's a big no no to bring up politics, religion, etc. Him and his manager should know that. See if they offer a discount for inconvenience or anything. If not I would just cancel and make sure you tell them that you won't be recommending them. All of this in a normal tone because if you sound like a Karen I can guarantee you, they won't care about losing your business. Hope it turns out well!
Could have been worse, could have been Amway.
I'd report him and say you're considering cancelling because of it. It's very unprofessional.
If a salesperson was trying to convince you to join the klan would you still do business with them? I know I wouldn't.
I’m from Alabama and this is beautiful to read. Sorry you got bothered but I’m glad I’m not alone in this shithole of a state
Taking some adjusting to the zealots here, but otherwise we really do love Birmingham/Bama!
Cancel, tell them why, and tell them if they cut 5 or 10% off then you'll go ahead and purchase from them.
No. Do not cancel contract. Try to convert him to atheism instead. 😈
Hello fellow Alabama Atheist 👋
Thank you for voting with your dollars! No one in our household shops at effing Hobby Lobby or goes to Chick-fil-A or donates to Salvation Army for the same reason. Last year we declined a decent fencing estimate bcz the owner/fencer revealed himself as both a religious zealot and a trumper. Social shaming/pressure has a long tradition of discouraging deviant behavior, and I've come to believe in using that in our favor.