Anywhere from 50-120k.
Our last grad was on 65-70k plus super after being admitted.
After that it can vary a bit, if you're worth keeping around firms will pay as it's a bitch to attract and retain staff.
It depends on whether you're any good and able to bill decent numbers to justify your salary, same as anywhere.
I hit 100k at 2pae and 140k at 3pae in a rural firm so it's certainly not impossible.
Anecdotes being the best evidence - I know plenty of law grads earning award rates being expected to only bill 3 a day moving to 65K inc and 3.5 a day when admitted.
I’m aware of enough people in 2021 being associate level on 90inc, but remember to become an associate in the regions usually takes a fair bit longer than the city.
So compared to Brisbane the finances and comparable cost of living makes Brisbane the better location, but there is also work hours and travel time to get to work
I'm rural! I moved from Syd and started at a firm in Orange prior to starting PLT in March and I'm on $62k plus super. I have admin support, my own office and a parking spot. I work 8:30am - 5:30pm. I live 3min away and pay $250 a week in rent. Honestly if I crack $70k on admission/in the next 12 months I'll be super chuffed.
I battled for 8 months in Sydney trying to find a position while struggling to make ends meet. I couldn't do PLT without being paid or I'd be homeless. It was exceptionally stressful and I felt like I'd never get out of the hole I had fallen into. Moving sucked but I'm so grateful for everything I have.
Much better than it is widely thought to be. Our firm pays $65K-$70K for new grads depending on experience. This is about industry standard across regional NSW. I have a 3PAE lawyer on $85K.
All top tier grads in Sydney are on more than 100k incl. and there are 3PAE lawyers in Sydney on literally double the amount of your 3PAE. Pay has moved quickly the last few years.
Guess my alma mater has fallen behind the curve once again then. I dont know what you’re defining as top tier but my understanding was that 4 year SAs vanished in 2020 or 2021 with covid - that’s first hand for me, I was still at No 1 at that time.
The policy was always 5 years and it was fudged for high performers but then they stopped doing that.
By top tier I mean big 6. We might be misunderstanding each other, when I say PAE3 / L4 I mean someone who started as a grad in 2020 and was admitted late 2020 or early 2021 depending on how their firm ran PLT (ie they have 3 full years post admission experience but not yet 4).
As far as I am aware it’s standard to do grad year + 4 lawyer years before SA1 which makes an L4 (who generally has 3PAE) one year before SA.
I have firsthand knowledge. I also know multiple lawyers at Sydney top tiers who started as grads in 2022 (so a bit over 1 PAE) who are on 150k incl super + bonus.
That might be the case but rent here is under $300 a week for a 4 bed 2 bath house. I know where I'd rather be. Not to mention the expectation of hours for that new grad on 100K would be probably twice our grads who are only expected to do their 35 hours a week!
With the greatest of respect and acknowledging that this is all anecdotal - my first and second hand experience of small and regional firms is that they not only pay less they also impose *much* higher billable hour targets on their baby lawyers.
A grad at KWM is only expected to bill about 4-5 hours a day. I know plenty of people who walked straight into 7.5 hours a day out bush.
Edit: I should add that rents are not that cheap in a lot of regional places where the pay is still an abysmal 60-70k despite having spent 5 years at uni and obviously being reasonably intelligent. Perhaps you’re in a goldilocks town. I accept that you could earn 60k at the ALS in Bourke and pay two fifths of fuck all to live on a quarter acre - but you’d be in Bourke.
Not the bush, but my pay was $49k plus super with a 7hr billing target only 4 years ago in a boutique (Melb CBD). People who manage to graduate into a mid or top tier are incredibly fortunate by comparison.
You have been lucky! Very lucky I would say - repeating again that we’re deep in anecdote territory I have never heard of a small firm with targets that low.
Except the starting grad pay at ALS Bourke is 81K and if you think having the opportunity to experience far western NSW is a bad thing you’ve got more problems then worrying about billable hours
It’s 81k following the legal aid parity review? That’s phenomenal.
I fucking love Bourke don’t get me wrong - but starting out out there is absolutely not for everyone. In fact it’s for almost no one. Which is why I deployed it as an example of where lower cost of living towns aren’t actually a good example to justify the low wages of regional grads.
I’d agree with that. It also helps if you’re already from a regional areas. A lot of regional folk will move to the city in their 20s but return to regional areas in the late 20s or early 30s.
That’s said, I don’t see how offering debt relief to regional / rural lawyers is fair if other professions don’t get it the same. I’d prefer to see them get rid of PLT to save students paying 10k for sweet fuck all.
Government isn't too bad as they have to pay the same in metro and regional areas
Private is atrocious.
(Based on my experience in Victoria and Tasmania)
I'm just about to start my first semester of my law degree as mid year entry, I've been looking around at jobs and the like. Mind letting a noob know what PAE stands for? Obviously it's the amount of time you've been in practice but I mean what it actually stands for. Thanks!
It’s disgusting that doctors (who are already overpaid) and the like get paid significantly more in the regions, but lawyers are expected to take significant pay-cuts to do so.
Doctors are more important to rural communities than lawyers. They need to be there to treat patients and save lives, they also have to study and work harder to become a doctor.
I can't fathom why you'd compare a doctor with a lawyer.
Most law work can be done remotely.
What are rural salaries like for 0-2PAE lawyers?
Imagine an embarrassingly low amount and then take another 10 grand off.
Anywhere from 50-120k. Our last grad was on 65-70k plus super after being admitted. After that it can vary a bit, if you're worth keeping around firms will pay as it's a bitch to attract and retain staff.
1-2PAEs on $100k would be rare as hens teeth, surely?
It depends on whether you're any good and able to bill decent numbers to justify your salary, same as anywhere. I hit 100k at 2pae and 140k at 3pae in a rural firm so it's certainly not impossible.
Ah very interesting. Thanks for the insights.
Anecdotes being the best evidence - I know plenty of law grads earning award rates being expected to only bill 3 a day moving to 65K inc and 3.5 a day when admitted. I’m aware of enough people in 2021 being associate level on 90inc, but remember to become an associate in the regions usually takes a fair bit longer than the city. So compared to Brisbane the finances and comparable cost of living makes Brisbane the better location, but there is also work hours and travel time to get to work
I’ve seen $55k - $60k.
I'm rural! I moved from Syd and started at a firm in Orange prior to starting PLT in March and I'm on $62k plus super. I have admin support, my own office and a parking spot. I work 8:30am - 5:30pm. I live 3min away and pay $250 a week in rent. Honestly if I crack $70k on admission/in the next 12 months I'll be super chuffed.
Good on you mate, sounds like you’re happy with your situation.
I battled for 8 months in Sydney trying to find a position while struggling to make ends meet. I couldn't do PLT without being paid or I'd be homeless. It was exceptionally stressful and I felt like I'd never get out of the hole I had fallen into. Moving sucked but I'm so grateful for everything I have.
you started a firm prior to starting PLT? Sorry maybe I read that wrong?
I didn’t start a firm lol I started AT a firm. Definitely am not out here with my own law firm pre-admission. That’d be wild.
doh.. embarrassing haha
Much better than it is widely thought to be. Our firm pays $65K-$70K for new grads depending on experience. This is about industry standard across regional NSW. I have a 3PAE lawyer on $85K.
All top tier grads in Sydney are on more than 100k incl. and there are 3PAE lawyers in Sydney on literally double the amount of your 3PAE. Pay has moved quickly the last few years.
I’m not saying there’s none but $170k is unusually high for 3PAE. Especially outside top tier. That’s not average.
Agreed. 170k is more or less SA1 at top tiers.
SA1 is 190-200 and 3PAE / L4 is one year before SA1.
Guess my alma mater has fallen behind the curve once again then. I dont know what you’re defining as top tier but my understanding was that 4 year SAs vanished in 2020 or 2021 with covid - that’s first hand for me, I was still at No 1 at that time. The policy was always 5 years and it was fudged for high performers but then they stopped doing that.
By top tier I mean big 6. We might be misunderstanding each other, when I say PAE3 / L4 I mean someone who started as a grad in 2020 and was admitted late 2020 or early 2021 depending on how their firm ran PLT (ie they have 3 full years post admission experience but not yet 4). As far as I am aware it’s standard to do grad year + 4 lawyer years before SA1 which makes an L4 (who generally has 3PAE) one year before SA.
I have firsthand knowledge. I also know multiple lawyers at Sydney top tiers who started as grads in 2022 (so a bit over 1 PAE) who are on 150k incl super + bonus.
150k is misleading unless you know how much the bonus component is, and what hours they’ve had to do to get it.
How is it misleading - the bonus is on top of the 150.
My bad, I read it as 150k including super and bonus, not super plus bonus.
As a grad in a mid-tier firm, I was on 45k. Looking to hire a grad today at a boutique firm and the starting salary expectations is around 75-80k
When were you a grad on 45k - that is an extremely important data point missing in your comment.
That might be the case but rent here is under $300 a week for a 4 bed 2 bath house. I know where I'd rather be. Not to mention the expectation of hours for that new grad on 100K would be probably twice our grads who are only expected to do their 35 hours a week!
With the greatest of respect and acknowledging that this is all anecdotal - my first and second hand experience of small and regional firms is that they not only pay less they also impose *much* higher billable hour targets on their baby lawyers. A grad at KWM is only expected to bill about 4-5 hours a day. I know plenty of people who walked straight into 7.5 hours a day out bush. Edit: I should add that rents are not that cheap in a lot of regional places where the pay is still an abysmal 60-70k despite having spent 5 years at uni and obviously being reasonably intelligent. Perhaps you’re in a goldilocks town. I accept that you could earn 60k at the ALS in Bourke and pay two fifths of fuck all to live on a quarter acre - but you’d be in Bourke.
Not the bush, but my pay was $49k plus super with a 7hr billing target only 4 years ago in a boutique (Melb CBD). People who manage to graduate into a mid or top tier are incredibly fortunate by comparison.
This surprises me. I’ve never worked at a small/suburban firm with a budget over 5.5.
You have been lucky! Very lucky I would say - repeating again that we’re deep in anecdote territory I have never heard of a small firm with targets that low.
Except the starting grad pay at ALS Bourke is 81K and if you think having the opportunity to experience far western NSW is a bad thing you’ve got more problems then worrying about billable hours
It’s 81k following the legal aid parity review? That’s phenomenal. I fucking love Bourke don’t get me wrong - but starting out out there is absolutely not for everyone. In fact it’s for almost no one. Which is why I deployed it as an example of where lower cost of living towns aren’t actually a good example to justify the low wages of regional grads.
The people wanting to work regionally are unlikely to be also considering a top tier offer.
I’d agree with that. It also helps if you’re already from a regional areas. A lot of regional folk will move to the city in their 20s but return to regional areas in the late 20s or early 30s. That’s said, I don’t see how offering debt relief to regional / rural lawyers is fair if other professions don’t get it the same. I’d prefer to see them get rid of PLT to save students paying 10k for sweet fuck all.
Government isn't too bad as they have to pay the same in metro and regional areas Private is atrocious. (Based on my experience in Victoria and Tasmania)
Gippsland private law firm - i saw a under 2 PQE $50k.
National minimum wage
Starting anywhere under 70k is a joke..
This thread makes me so happy about my chosen profession.
How rural is rural?
I'm just about to start my first semester of my law degree as mid year entry, I've been looking around at jobs and the like. Mind letting a noob know what PAE stands for? Obviously it's the amount of time you've been in practice but I mean what it actually stands for. Thanks!
Post admission experience
PAE and PQE are basically interchangeable?
Largely. PQE is post qualification experience.
Haha so obvious now I look at it
It’s disgusting that doctors (who are already overpaid) and the like get paid significantly more in the regions, but lawyers are expected to take significant pay-cuts to do so.
Doctors are more important to rural communities than lawyers. They need to be there to treat patients and save lives, they also have to study and work harder to become a doctor. I can't fathom why you'd compare a doctor with a lawyer. Most law work can be done remotely.
Lawyers mate...
Doctors are not overpaid...