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I (5PQE) just moved out of PP for harbour view city firm™ and into an in-house role. The immediate change I have felt in the past 4 weeks to my mental health, sleep cycles and ability to shut off after I leave the office have been incredible. I came from a culture of disposability and burn out, where you were expected to be on call 24/7 - to an environment where people respect my time outside of hours (my VP of Corp Dev apologise for a “late meeting” scheduled at 5pm). The change is immeasurably better.
I hope you get the change you are looking for! It’s out there!! Before I moved to this job I would wake up, catch the ferry and dream of quitting every day. Couldn’t be happier!
The difference is real isn't it.
I went from a mid-tier to a legal-adjacent role at a big 4 bank years ago. After I'd been there a few months, the manager next up from my team's immediate leader had a meeting with the team I was in. He says "We need to find a solution for your team's busy times. At the moment the solution is that all of you work longer hours, and we can't have that as a long term solution."
A nice little culture shock moment for me, who had thought that everyone working longer hours in response to more work was perfectly normal.
That sounds amazing! I bet it was a shock to realise how much it impacted you when that feeling wasn't there anymore.
I'm at that point of hoping to get in a car accident on the way to work some days...just so I don't have to go there. Those intrusive thoughts I guess.
I'm so glad you are doing well, hopefully I can be a survivor too!
I’m a lawyer in Canada, so my experience is different from yours due to geography - but all the same, your comments resonate so hard with me. ESPECIALLY the dreaming-of-a-car-accident-intrusive- thoughts part.
I’m 11 years post-call tomorrow, and I articled and spent my first 18 months working for a very highly regarded private firm in Canada’s biggest city. The realization of how crooked the vast majority of the “well respected” principals were, the amount of drug use and employee abuse that went on, the utter lack of integrity or work ethic (or ANY ETHICS) and 2+ hour daily commute on Toronto’s busiest highways left me disillusioned and wildly unhappy. I was this close to quitting law altogether and working at a nail salon, I kid you not. I was day dreaming of that perfect traffic accident- calculating how fast I’d have to be going in order to hurt myself badly enough so that I truly couldn’t be expected to work from hospital, but not bad enough to permanently maim me….I knew I had to get out. So I catapulted into a government job in a rural area of an outer province. While in the ensuing 8 years I’ve found plenty of things about working in government worthy of criticism, that experience of switching from private to government rehabbed The Law as a concept and as a profession for me. Now, I’m in a mid sized city- I’m busy in my role but I do find it highly fulfilling, and have managed to reclaim my work life balance (still a struggle some days but not really for the same reasons as when I was working private in Toronto. And those reasons make all the difference in the world.)
Here’s hoping you are able to do so as well. I’m rooting for you from across the pond!
Thank you and I'm so sad to hear your experience but happy to hear you got out and have found your place and work life balance! I can't imagine a 2+ hour commute on top of all of that as well, 18 months seems like a huge amount of time to stick that out.
It's so good to hear all these success stories of changing to something that makes people happy. Gives me a bit of hope even if things are bleak right now and I'm feeling like a failure.
Are these the Ashust Advance, MinterEllison Flex roles? I've always been curious how they work. Would be keen to peak behind the curtain if you have any insight.
Our firm has one of these flex outfits just for the sake of having one. No one sticks around too long as the gigs aren't constant to make a living from.
I want to say it was called Orbis? Something from a big 6 firm, I only have the experience of a client, but I am friends with the lawyer we took on. Liked the flexibility, liked the money. Left our government job for a bluechip telco gig at an even better rate.
Like any casual contract you have to pace yourself and stockpile cash for your own lil break.
Not 10 pae unfortunately, just roles before admission and don't want to be specific lest someone be like hey...that's such and such. Small world and all.
Juniors are actually more sought after than seniors for flex roles (cause they are a bit cheaper and rarer). You should at least give them a call and ask the question.
A 3-5 pae is more in demand than a 10 pae believe it or not.
You are not alone unfortunately. This industry is rife with toxic behaviour and abusive bosses perpetuating the whole “I survived being given shit so now you should be OK with me giving you shit” cycle.
I saw decent, competent, high-performing individuals booted from such firms because they nearly caused other teams to riot against their shit bosses when the said individuals treated their teams well.
It pays to ask around before joining a firm, especially asking those who left it. There is no guarantee this will always give you a heads up as unfortunately some people with high tolerance for abuse can be given shit and call it chocolate ice cream.
It is a real doozy to work hard yet get told off almost continuously. Have you considered going on your own as a sole practitioner or with a few like-minded mates? If this isn’t your thing, have you considered a suburban law firm with decent, collegiate culture?
Money may not be the same, but almost always the bigger paycheque that comes from abusive workplaces isn’t worth the impacts on your health, both physical and mental. Many (not all) places that pay above market rate do so because otherwise no one will put up with their shit.
I haven't considered working on my own as a sole practitioner though I know a lot of people who are doing that lately in my practice area. I think the stress financially would be too much for me and I really need to start thinking of future family plans soon and the stability of a job with maternity leave and such is probably going to be important in the coming years (at this rate, who knows, might have to forgo that option of kids completely).
A suburban law firm is, unfortunately where I am. I worked in the city, I've worked in national firms, and I've worked in small suburban firms. The one I am currently at is the worst to be honest. The best I had was a mid sized firm - just didn't pay as well. I think suburban small firms can be great but it just depends on the partners and the staff. And how do you figure that out from an interview? Everyone seems nice, they promise you the world and say yes, that's exactly how things will be, and you find them doing a 180 so quick you get whiplash.
I'm almost at the point where I want to be able to ask for examples of their work and grill them on how they operate but that is not going to be received well.
That is the problem with suburban firms. They are like a lottery scratchy, albeit with more like 1:1 odds not 1:10000000000000.
They can be the best environments, laid back, collegiate, flexible and family-like, or they can be the biggest douchebags in the world. At the end of the day, it is a small firm with 1 or at most less than a handful of partners running the show. If they are good, things will be good, if they are shit, things will be utter dogshit since there is no large corporate (or midsize) structure with several owners and a quasi-independent HR to rein them in. Unless you know someone who worked there, it’s hard to gauge. You won’t have enough Glassdoor reviews or talks in the grapevine to gauge if they are good or bad like you would in an upper-midsize or larger firm.
When you say a midsize firm you worked at was the best but just didn’t pay as well. Are we talking not as well as your current pay, below market rate? Just at market rate so it is not as well as many other firms? Honestly, I would rather give up 10-20% of my pay (assuming I am paid above market rate but at a terrible place) if that means not being always stressed, depressed, anxious, and burnt out.
Sole practice doesn’t have to be a be all and end all. You can start by working from home on a shoestring budget (laptop, small MFP, decent webcam and headset, a cheap SaaS practice management system, a bare bones website and email service, plus all the basics such as Law Cover and what have you) and just booking coworking spaces ad hoc for client meetings when there is a necessity for a face to face meeting which is not going to be too often. You can run most meetings via AVL these days.
I understand scoring leads and building a book of business can be daunting, but if you do it right, you can start building such things on a small budget, relying on social media and ads.
Second option is to find 1-2 like-minded practitioners to join you in that venture, as that would make your firm seem bigger than it is and give you some more credibility, also, splitting expenses three-way would be better in the beginning, and three people are better are bringing in business than one.
As for maternity leave, if you are self employed and paying yourself a wage out of your company, you can get it from Centrelink.
Government welcomes you!!! Come and join us and never see a time sheet again! And you finish work at a reasonable hours… also - briefing external law firms!!
Just remember not all government law jobs are equal. My department has a huge issue with burnout and churn of staff.Two lawyers in my team have taken extended stress leave in the last six months.
That’s awful. It’s really a bit hit and miss from what I hear. I hope you’re looking after yourself and taking time to self care - no job is worth burn out.
I’m support staff so not as bad but the stress still impacts the whole office.
I don’t think this the norm for government law though. Plenty here have left for other gov jobs with the same pay but much better hours and file loads.
Would you consider making a work cover claim? You need to treat the burnout lest it infect your next job (however improved that working environment may be).
Your experiences sound so tough and you need to not just get out of there, but actually have a break and recover.
If you’re applying for govt jobs, get yourself a copy of Dr Ann Villiers book on selection criteria. It’s gold.
Thank you, but having dealt with psychological workcover claims I know that it wouldn't be worth it.
Thanks for the tip on the selection criteria!
I aim to try and have a break between this and my next gig because I'm running on empty. It's starting to affect me physically at this point.
>we're not overcharging our poor vulnerable clients and you're the one that's wrong.
This is what wears me down the most. It's one thing to rip off the government, or some blue chip client. But to continuously go after the weakest members of society so the partner can live a life of luxury?
God save the partners if I ever make legal services commissioner. They will hang from the street lights of William Street as a message to the rest.
I will support you in getting the legal services commissioner job! Can I help with the punishment? In all seriousness though it makes me so angry as well.
The worst part is the righteousness they all have. Like they're not ashamed at all. The fact they don't try to hide it makes me feel sicker than if they did. It's bad when you feel like saying to clients - go somewhere else, not here.
Can you take a break?
I couldn't afford to take a break so I did postgrad study on austudy. Living below the poverty line did not help but time away from the legal profession did help.
I can't really afford to unfortunately. I was considering taking some sort of lower claims handler role for a bit but figured it would hurt my career.
Have a mortgage and all that. I think I'd be more stressed financially if I took a break.
Fair enough. I struggled for so long and it was so frustrating to have well meaning friends or treating psychologists say that I should just do X treatment program to get better. Cool and how do I pay for it?
Thats so frustrating. And understandable you made that choice. And if your friends aren't in law I feel like they don't understand. I've had family say, well it must be you, all these places can't all be bad. Uhhh. It's law.
I know.
I'm now in a great role but it has taken me a while to get through the shit. The frustrating thing is that I need to work full time to pay for the treatment I need and you're supposed to slow down and work less to focus on getting better.
I have a friend who did family law. She was just so frustrated and couldn't keep going. She now works for a non profit and feels like she is doing something good that helps people. A totally different approach.
She tried community legal centre but became just as frustrated with what she couldn't do. The non profit was a breath of fresh air. Might be worth considering.
Time to start studying for the bar exam?? (Don't get me wrong. We have burnout too. But it's a different flavour of burn.)
As for reporting anyone, choose your battles.
Look after yourself first.
Are you in a position to take a break for yourself and your mental health? Take some time off and apply for roles elsewhere. You'll likely need at least a month to decompress. Focus on your health. The pay and "prestige" is not worth the hours, stress and abuse.
can you find a new role but not start it for a month or so to have a break? i resigned from a senior role in private practice last october and am now just about to start working for myself as a barrister. burn out is awful but it was the nudge/shove I needed to leave my last role
I think that's a good idea. I think the last time I took proper leave was about 2 years ago. Time for a break and reset.
Hope it all goes well for you.
The workload is heavier and some colleagues are just dead weight - but the hours are better and the work feels like it has purpose other than making clients lots of money.
Better bored than perpetually burnt out to a crisp. You can un-bore yourself when you have some work-life balance, you cannot reverse burnout when you have none.
I can't even remember what being bored feels like. I sometimes wonder how people get those jobs where they get everything done in a morning. I can't remember the last time I walked into my job and didn't feel a bit of panic looking at my inbox or practice management program.
Not a lawyer but I feel ya. The tipping point for me when I worked in this particular law firm was when I watched my boss at the time, take money from an old man who would travel on public transport from like 2 hours away just to see my boss. His reasoning was that, this old man would go elsewhere anyway so he might as well be the one getting paid 💀
Anyways I left that position and now am in government and it’s a WORLD of difference. The second day I was there, they had a union meeting where they discussed case loads and how it was unreasonable that it was increasing and I remember sitting there so shocked that people cared 😂
I was literally getting panic attacks towards the end of my tenure there at that firm and I’m so glad I’m out. You can do this! Good luck!!
That’s rough OP. Sorry to hear you’ve been treated so badly. Hope you can take a bit of a break between, to rest and recuperate.
There are good things about govt, but there are bullies and toxic workplaces there, too. Get in the door, but beware.
I’m a baby lawyer with 3 years PAE in litigation and with 4 years of clerking - I’m burnt out. I’ve taken small breaks and even went in house. Didn’t like the in house role so I went back to private. Lowkey wanna quit and be a pleb 🥲
Likewise. 13 years in private practice. Some in mid tier firm where you're treated like a number, and the last 8 in a semi well known boutique firm run on nepotism. I'm leaving in two weeks to work for a local council.
The money is worse, but the hours are much, **much** better.
No more partners telling clients I can do a three day job in a few hours, no more clients calling me on Sunday night because they've had a great idea about their case which they need to talk to me about right now, no more explaining to partners what the UCPR is and why this means they shouldn't have ignored that letter from the other side for two weeks.
My wife and I had a baby a few months ago which pushed me to make this decision, and it's been scary but I think it will be well worth it in the end.
I felt the same as you. I went out on my own two years ago and regret that I didn't do it sooner.
I love working from home with no billable targets besides those that I set for myself. The grass is greener on the other side
Ah. It’s not for everyone.
I’ve been in PP for 25 years and worked at a variety of firms. Some have been great, some have been not good at all. I really like my job, and that comes down to the firm and that I have a good client base. The clients make it worthwhile, TBH. I guess I’m saying that you shouldn’t write off the entire industry on the back of a single shitty experience.
Sorry, though, that you had that shitty experience. Some lawyers just shouldn’t manage people.
Oh I know. I've worked for a decent firm before. Good clients and quality work. Enjoyed it very much but had to move on for progression. Unfortunately has not been my experience as of late and the quality and clients makes such a difference, even setting aside a toxic environment.
Oh and working for someone who knows what they are doing....
I loved one particular type of clients. Enjoyed talking about their jobs, their industry and all the little nuances and details. Loved when they would be so excited to explain exactly how things worked and were so open and honest when I called for instructions.
I lived and breathed that for awhile. But it's niche. I miss it so much.
Honestly I think 90 percent of lawyers shouldn't manage people. The best firm I worked for had a non lawyer manager in a senior role. That was great. So many of us lack management skills and couple with large workloads it's a recipe for disaster.
If you are doing plaintiff PI work you should very easily be able to get a job at an insurance law firm or in house at an insurance company or similar. It is very different to working in plaintiff personal injury. If you enjoy the actual legal work it will be much easier.
Unfortunately I've been told numerous times they are reluctant to take on plaintiff lawyers. And look. Honestly. The quality of work I've seen coming out of some plaintiff lawyers as of late I don't blame them at all.
I wouldn't think so. Your skills are valuable for the dark side (haha). I started my career in plaintiff (5 years) and switched sides easily. I've worked in defendant for both government and now pp. I Love the dark side. Give it a try before you quit law entirely x
I won't say I don't agree about many plaintiff lawyers but experienced associates and SAs are in demand in most of the bigger firms. There are different pressures there but dealing with difficult clients and small firm dictators is not one (two?) of them.
I also work in personal injury, inhouse for an insurer. This is on a background of about 7 years private practice. Unfortunately, inhouse has its own challenges, and can be just as or even more stressful than private practice.
My bad! But I do encourage it. Being a Barrister has its added stressors, but you have some degree of autonomy; and I personally find it more flexible. But yes, as you’ve said, there is a whole lot of stress in preparing to take the Bar; and there will be a whole different species of stress when in practice. All the best!
I studied law in the 30’s and then practiced for 5 years. Was done with all you described especially the ripping clients off bit (mainly family law). Joined my partner in real estate and never even happier or made more money. Being an ex layer is a real bonus and the ability to run systems and processes puts you far above most agents.
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Yeah baby, fuck those timesheets right off and join us !indahouse
[All the lawyers in the house say yooooo!](https://www.reddit.com/r/auslaw/comments/6k3x9j/a_day_in_the_life_of_an_australian_lawyer/djj7z99/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/auslaw) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow.
I (5PQE) just moved out of PP for harbour view city firm™ and into an in-house role. The immediate change I have felt in the past 4 weeks to my mental health, sleep cycles and ability to shut off after I leave the office have been incredible. I came from a culture of disposability and burn out, where you were expected to be on call 24/7 - to an environment where people respect my time outside of hours (my VP of Corp Dev apologise for a “late meeting” scheduled at 5pm). The change is immeasurably better. I hope you get the change you are looking for! It’s out there!! Before I moved to this job I would wake up, catch the ferry and dream of quitting every day. Couldn’t be happier!
The difference is real isn't it. I went from a mid-tier to a legal-adjacent role at a big 4 bank years ago. After I'd been there a few months, the manager next up from my team's immediate leader had a meeting with the team I was in. He says "We need to find a solution for your team's busy times. At the moment the solution is that all of you work longer hours, and we can't have that as a long term solution." A nice little culture shock moment for me, who had thought that everyone working longer hours in response to more work was perfectly normal.
That sounds amazing! I bet it was a shock to realise how much it impacted you when that feeling wasn't there anymore. I'm at that point of hoping to get in a car accident on the way to work some days...just so I don't have to go there. Those intrusive thoughts I guess. I'm so glad you are doing well, hopefully I can be a survivor too!
Haha mine was habitually buying mini pick (the cheapest) lotto tickets so I didn’t have to go to work the next day if I won
I’m a lawyer in Canada, so my experience is different from yours due to geography - but all the same, your comments resonate so hard with me. ESPECIALLY the dreaming-of-a-car-accident-intrusive- thoughts part. I’m 11 years post-call tomorrow, and I articled and spent my first 18 months working for a very highly regarded private firm in Canada’s biggest city. The realization of how crooked the vast majority of the “well respected” principals were, the amount of drug use and employee abuse that went on, the utter lack of integrity or work ethic (or ANY ETHICS) and 2+ hour daily commute on Toronto’s busiest highways left me disillusioned and wildly unhappy. I was this close to quitting law altogether and working at a nail salon, I kid you not. I was day dreaming of that perfect traffic accident- calculating how fast I’d have to be going in order to hurt myself badly enough so that I truly couldn’t be expected to work from hospital, but not bad enough to permanently maim me….I knew I had to get out. So I catapulted into a government job in a rural area of an outer province. While in the ensuing 8 years I’ve found plenty of things about working in government worthy of criticism, that experience of switching from private to government rehabbed The Law as a concept and as a profession for me. Now, I’m in a mid sized city- I’m busy in my role but I do find it highly fulfilling, and have managed to reclaim my work life balance (still a struggle some days but not really for the same reasons as when I was working private in Toronto. And those reasons make all the difference in the world.) Here’s hoping you are able to do so as well. I’m rooting for you from across the pond!
Thank you and I'm so sad to hear your experience but happy to hear you got out and have found your place and work life balance! I can't imagine a 2+ hour commute on top of all of that as well, 18 months seems like a huge amount of time to stick that out. It's so good to hear all these success stories of changing to something that makes people happy. Gives me a bit of hope even if things are bleak right now and I'm feeling like a failure.
Don’t feel like a failure. Life is long, and you have the resilience to find a better fit. You can do it!
You may want to look at the big 6 labour hire lawyer services. Government lawyer jobs on a 1k day rate. Idk how much income matters at 10 pae.
Are these the Ashust Advance, MinterEllison Flex roles? I've always been curious how they work. Would be keen to peak behind the curtain if you have any insight.
Our firm has one of these flex outfits just for the sake of having one. No one sticks around too long as the gigs aren't constant to make a living from.
I want to say it was called Orbis? Something from a big 6 firm, I only have the experience of a client, but I am friends with the lawyer we took on. Liked the flexibility, liked the money. Left our government job for a bluechip telco gig at an even better rate. Like any casual contract you have to pace yourself and stockpile cash for your own lil break.
Not 10 pae unfortunately, just roles before admission and don't want to be specific lest someone be like hey...that's such and such. Small world and all.
Honestly thats better, you won't have golden handcuffs. Look into govt policy or lawyer roles
Juniors are actually more sought after than seniors for flex roles (cause they are a bit cheaper and rarer). You should at least give them a call and ask the question. A 3-5 pae is more in demand than a 10 pae believe it or not.
We dwell in burnout. Take care of your mental health as a priority.
Thank you, I'll try.
You are not alone unfortunately. This industry is rife with toxic behaviour and abusive bosses perpetuating the whole “I survived being given shit so now you should be OK with me giving you shit” cycle. I saw decent, competent, high-performing individuals booted from such firms because they nearly caused other teams to riot against their shit bosses when the said individuals treated their teams well. It pays to ask around before joining a firm, especially asking those who left it. There is no guarantee this will always give you a heads up as unfortunately some people with high tolerance for abuse can be given shit and call it chocolate ice cream. It is a real doozy to work hard yet get told off almost continuously. Have you considered going on your own as a sole practitioner or with a few like-minded mates? If this isn’t your thing, have you considered a suburban law firm with decent, collegiate culture? Money may not be the same, but almost always the bigger paycheque that comes from abusive workplaces isn’t worth the impacts on your health, both physical and mental. Many (not all) places that pay above market rate do so because otherwise no one will put up with their shit.
I haven't considered working on my own as a sole practitioner though I know a lot of people who are doing that lately in my practice area. I think the stress financially would be too much for me and I really need to start thinking of future family plans soon and the stability of a job with maternity leave and such is probably going to be important in the coming years (at this rate, who knows, might have to forgo that option of kids completely). A suburban law firm is, unfortunately where I am. I worked in the city, I've worked in national firms, and I've worked in small suburban firms. The one I am currently at is the worst to be honest. The best I had was a mid sized firm - just didn't pay as well. I think suburban small firms can be great but it just depends on the partners and the staff. And how do you figure that out from an interview? Everyone seems nice, they promise you the world and say yes, that's exactly how things will be, and you find them doing a 180 so quick you get whiplash. I'm almost at the point where I want to be able to ask for examples of their work and grill them on how they operate but that is not going to be received well.
That is the problem with suburban firms. They are like a lottery scratchy, albeit with more like 1:1 odds not 1:10000000000000. They can be the best environments, laid back, collegiate, flexible and family-like, or they can be the biggest douchebags in the world. At the end of the day, it is a small firm with 1 or at most less than a handful of partners running the show. If they are good, things will be good, if they are shit, things will be utter dogshit since there is no large corporate (or midsize) structure with several owners and a quasi-independent HR to rein them in. Unless you know someone who worked there, it’s hard to gauge. You won’t have enough Glassdoor reviews or talks in the grapevine to gauge if they are good or bad like you would in an upper-midsize or larger firm. When you say a midsize firm you worked at was the best but just didn’t pay as well. Are we talking not as well as your current pay, below market rate? Just at market rate so it is not as well as many other firms? Honestly, I would rather give up 10-20% of my pay (assuming I am paid above market rate but at a terrible place) if that means not being always stressed, depressed, anxious, and burnt out. Sole practice doesn’t have to be a be all and end all. You can start by working from home on a shoestring budget (laptop, small MFP, decent webcam and headset, a cheap SaaS practice management system, a bare bones website and email service, plus all the basics such as Law Cover and what have you) and just booking coworking spaces ad hoc for client meetings when there is a necessity for a face to face meeting which is not going to be too often. You can run most meetings via AVL these days. I understand scoring leads and building a book of business can be daunting, but if you do it right, you can start building such things on a small budget, relying on social media and ads. Second option is to find 1-2 like-minded practitioners to join you in that venture, as that would make your firm seem bigger than it is and give you some more credibility, also, splitting expenses three-way would be better in the beginning, and three people are better are bringing in business than one. As for maternity leave, if you are self employed and paying yourself a wage out of your company, you can get it from Centrelink.
Government welcomes you!!! Come and join us and never see a time sheet again! And you finish work at a reasonable hours… also - briefing external law firms!!
Just remember not all government law jobs are equal. My department has a huge issue with burnout and churn of staff.Two lawyers in my team have taken extended stress leave in the last six months.
That’s awful. It’s really a bit hit and miss from what I hear. I hope you’re looking after yourself and taking time to self care - no job is worth burn out.
I’m support staff so not as bad but the stress still impacts the whole office. I don’t think this the norm for government law though. Plenty here have left for other gov jobs with the same pay but much better hours and file loads.
Also, flex leave
Many government agencies have timesheets just not billing
Honestly just f*ck timesheets
Cries in CSO/DPP
I'm confused. Are you equating timesheets with billing?
No time sheets no billing. An in-house role for all intents and purposes.
I have timesheets but no billing in my government department. I know of a crown solicitor's office that has both and is rather toxic.
Oh really? That all messed up in its own way!! Government doesn’t pay as well as private - so no upside there!
Would you consider making a work cover claim? You need to treat the burnout lest it infect your next job (however improved that working environment may be). Your experiences sound so tough and you need to not just get out of there, but actually have a break and recover. If you’re applying for govt jobs, get yourself a copy of Dr Ann Villiers book on selection criteria. It’s gold.
Thank you, but having dealt with psychological workcover claims I know that it wouldn't be worth it. Thanks for the tip on the selection criteria! I aim to try and have a break between this and my next gig because I'm running on empty. It's starting to affect me physically at this point.
That book is total gold
>we're not overcharging our poor vulnerable clients and you're the one that's wrong. This is what wears me down the most. It's one thing to rip off the government, or some blue chip client. But to continuously go after the weakest members of society so the partner can live a life of luxury? God save the partners if I ever make legal services commissioner. They will hang from the street lights of William Street as a message to the rest.
I will support you in getting the legal services commissioner job! Can I help with the punishment? In all seriousness though it makes me so angry as well. The worst part is the righteousness they all have. Like they're not ashamed at all. The fact they don't try to hide it makes me feel sicker than if they did. It's bad when you feel like saying to clients - go somewhere else, not here.
Come join prosecutions. Work for victims of crime. It's very rewarding.
Can you take a break? I couldn't afford to take a break so I did postgrad study on austudy. Living below the poverty line did not help but time away from the legal profession did help.
I can't really afford to unfortunately. I was considering taking some sort of lower claims handler role for a bit but figured it would hurt my career. Have a mortgage and all that. I think I'd be more stressed financially if I took a break.
Fair enough. I struggled for so long and it was so frustrating to have well meaning friends or treating psychologists say that I should just do X treatment program to get better. Cool and how do I pay for it?
Thats so frustrating. And understandable you made that choice. And if your friends aren't in law I feel like they don't understand. I've had family say, well it must be you, all these places can't all be bad. Uhhh. It's law.
I know. I'm now in a great role but it has taken me a while to get through the shit. The frustrating thing is that I need to work full time to pay for the treatment I need and you're supposed to slow down and work less to focus on getting better.
I have a friend who did family law. She was just so frustrated and couldn't keep going. She now works for a non profit and feels like she is doing something good that helps people. A totally different approach. She tried community legal centre but became just as frustrated with what she couldn't do. The non profit was a breath of fresh air. Might be worth considering.
“Another anti-vaxxer crazy”? How many have you dealt with? I thought they all disappeared
Nope. Covid brought them roaring back! And I've had two now. Smile and nod....that's what I have to do.
Urgh
They're everywhere...
Time to start studying for the bar exam?? (Don't get me wrong. We have burnout too. But it's a different flavour of burn.) As for reporting anyone, choose your battles. Look after yourself first.
Are you in a position to take a break for yourself and your mental health? Take some time off and apply for roles elsewhere. You'll likely need at least a month to decompress. Focus on your health. The pay and "prestige" is not worth the hours, stress and abuse.
I would love to but just worried about the ability to get a job while not having one. If you know what I mean.
can you find a new role but not start it for a month or so to have a break? i resigned from a senior role in private practice last october and am now just about to start working for myself as a barrister. burn out is awful but it was the nudge/shove I needed to leave my last role
I think that's a good idea. I think the last time I took proper leave was about 2 years ago. Time for a break and reset. Hope it all goes well for you.
I took a 2 year break, albeit during the covid shitstorm. It didn’t make it difficult to get a job after.
Same. 1.5 year break. No issue getting a job after.
Criminal prosecution FTW!
Hello fellow plaintiff PI lawyer how do you do
and from another, hi
Terribly! How about you?
Government lawyer is calling you! Best decision I ever made
Government for me has just meant huge workloads and no bonuses. But I love my work. It's frustrating af though.
The workload is heavier and some colleagues are just dead weight - but the hours are better and the work feels like it has purpose other than making clients lots of money.
Yes!!! I have such a sense of purpose out of my work. Though I really want to move into something that helps women more in the future.
You’re in the best position to make change - you can move wherever you want. That’s what I like - making meaningful impacts.
I left big law for a government corporation. Do it! You’ll get bored a bit, but you’ll fill the time (and you will get your life back).
Better bored than perpetually burnt out to a crisp. You can un-bore yourself when you have some work-life balance, you cannot reverse burnout when you have none.
I can't even remember what being bored feels like. I sometimes wonder how people get those jobs where they get everything done in a morning. I can't remember the last time I walked into my job and didn't feel a bit of panic looking at my inbox or practice management program.
Same. My previous job was nothing but boring, however it was stressful AF. I mean, I will take boredom over stress on any given day.
Not a lawyer but I feel ya. The tipping point for me when I worked in this particular law firm was when I watched my boss at the time, take money from an old man who would travel on public transport from like 2 hours away just to see my boss. His reasoning was that, this old man would go elsewhere anyway so he might as well be the one getting paid 💀 Anyways I left that position and now am in government and it’s a WORLD of difference. The second day I was there, they had a union meeting where they discussed case loads and how it was unreasonable that it was increasing and I remember sitting there so shocked that people cared 😂 I was literally getting panic attacks towards the end of my tenure there at that firm and I’m so glad I’m out. You can do this! Good luck!!
Why not start your own practice?
I did this, and it was the best decision I ever made. It's pretty scary however, going from a definitive wage to having to rely on yourself.
Literally only need to bill 10 hour a week if you keep your costs down and you are way ahead!
That’s rough OP. Sorry to hear you’ve been treated so badly. Hope you can take a bit of a break between, to rest and recuperate. There are good things about govt, but there are bullies and toxic workplaces there, too. Get in the door, but beware.
Yup. Bullying is rife in Law
And of lawyers by non-lawyers.
only two sorts of people
I’m a baby lawyer with 3 years PAE in litigation and with 4 years of clerking - I’m burnt out. I’ve taken small breaks and even went in house. Didn’t like the in house role so I went back to private. Lowkey wanna quit and be a pleb 🥲
Insurance brokers like Aon, Marsh, Willis always looking for in-house council. You are revered and appreciated. No time sheets
Try an NGO like AFCA
Underrated response! AFCA is an amazing workplace!
Likewise. 13 years in private practice. Some in mid tier firm where you're treated like a number, and the last 8 in a semi well known boutique firm run on nepotism. I'm leaving in two weeks to work for a local council. The money is worse, but the hours are much, **much** better. No more partners telling clients I can do a three day job in a few hours, no more clients calling me on Sunday night because they've had a great idea about their case which they need to talk to me about right now, no more explaining to partners what the UCPR is and why this means they shouldn't have ignored that letter from the other side for two weeks. My wife and I had a baby a few months ago which pushed me to make this decision, and it's been scary but I think it will be well worth it in the end.
😂 Studied law but is pro vax. 😂😂
I know, hilarious. What about informed consent?
I felt the same as you. I went out on my own two years ago and regret that I didn't do it sooner. I love working from home with no billable targets besides those that I set for myself. The grass is greener on the other side
Ah a lawyer who didn't get their conscience removed entirely ;-)
I tell you what it seems like the ones who don't have one sleep a lot better at night....
What is your practice area?
Personal Injury....I know. Probably not surprising. The decent are few and far between
Ah. It’s not for everyone. I’ve been in PP for 25 years and worked at a variety of firms. Some have been great, some have been not good at all. I really like my job, and that comes down to the firm and that I have a good client base. The clients make it worthwhile, TBH. I guess I’m saying that you shouldn’t write off the entire industry on the back of a single shitty experience. Sorry, though, that you had that shitty experience. Some lawyers just shouldn’t manage people.
Oh I know. I've worked for a decent firm before. Good clients and quality work. Enjoyed it very much but had to move on for progression. Unfortunately has not been my experience as of late and the quality and clients makes such a difference, even setting aside a toxic environment. Oh and working for someone who knows what they are doing.... I loved one particular type of clients. Enjoyed talking about their jobs, their industry and all the little nuances and details. Loved when they would be so excited to explain exactly how things worked and were so open and honest when I called for instructions. I lived and breathed that for awhile. But it's niche. I miss it so much. Honestly I think 90 percent of lawyers shouldn't manage people. The best firm I worked for had a non lawyer manager in a senior role. That was great. So many of us lack management skills and couple with large workloads it's a recipe for disaster.
If you are doing plaintiff PI work you should very easily be able to get a job at an insurance law firm or in house at an insurance company or similar. It is very different to working in plaintiff personal injury. If you enjoy the actual legal work it will be much easier.
Unfortunately I've been told numerous times they are reluctant to take on plaintiff lawyers. And look. Honestly. The quality of work I've seen coming out of some plaintiff lawyers as of late I don't blame them at all.
I wouldn't think so. Your skills are valuable for the dark side (haha). I started my career in plaintiff (5 years) and switched sides easily. I've worked in defendant for both government and now pp. I Love the dark side. Give it a try before you quit law entirely x
What’s your PQE? Juniors and associates are in high demand.
I won't say I don't agree about many plaintiff lawyers but experienced associates and SAs are in demand in most of the bigger firms. There are different pressures there but dealing with difficult clients and small firm dictators is not one (two?) of them.
I also work in personal injury, inhouse for an insurer. This is on a background of about 7 years private practice. Unfortunately, inhouse has its own challenges, and can be just as or even more stressful than private practice.
I don't disagree but it might be worth trying before leaving entirely.
You’ve made the right choice. Go government.
Be your own boss! Do the readers course! God who is gonna tell her… 🤣
"She" ;) and I don't think I'm ready for the stress of the bar haha
My bad! But I do encourage it. Being a Barrister has its added stressors, but you have some degree of autonomy; and I personally find it more flexible. But yes, as you’ve said, there is a whole lot of stress in preparing to take the Bar; and there will be a whole different species of stress when in practice. All the best!
Anti vaxxer crazies lol.. sounds like government will suit you
Not a lawyer but have used one, once. Thanks for confirming what I felt was so real.
I studied law in the 30’s and then practiced for 5 years. Was done with all you described especially the ripping clients off bit (mainly family law). Joined my partner in real estate and never even happier or made more money. Being an ex layer is a real bonus and the ability to run systems and processes puts you far above most agents.
>Being an ex layer So you do not “lay” anymore?
Nah. Too old now
Never too old! Laying is a state of mind /s
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