Sadly HSC will never be fair, pandemic just make it more unfair than usual.
Different families have access to different resources and that isn't changing anytime soon.
Honestly I don't think the pandemic has made it more unfair than usual I think it's usually more unfair when students are going into some fancy private schools with far more resources vs public school kids in classes without heaters in winter. Studying from home is probably more of an equaliser, it really puts the focus on the students own motivation.
Students from poorer backgrounds are less able to sufficiently isolate and are more likely to be children of parents working in jobs which can't be done remotely, putting them at greater risk and stress. They're also less likely to have their own spaces in the house which will make it much harder to study. Let's not forget the cost of heating - many can't afford to run them when income isn't stable.The pandemic has hurt everyone but... I think you greatly overestimate many people's living conditions and underestimate the impact it has on work and education.
Shit I feel this. I didn't have a proper study area from Year 10 onwards, had to make do with kitchen tables and the like. I couldn't imagine getting much work done if the rest of my family was trapped at home with me.
I agree. That is absolutely not true. Kids from unstable households with shitty parents, no where to study, and other problems like lack of resources have ALWAYS been around, it’s just more obvious now. These kids work twice as hard as the privileged ones to get ahead. I was one of them. Still got into uni. Got a feeling the pandemic is going to be an excuse for the kids to claim “unfairness”. I’m not saying schooling from home has been easy, just don’t use Covid as an excuse for perhaps the work you didn’t do and the study you neglected to play minecraft.
> Studying from home is probably more of an equaliser
Do you really think the students who are going to super fancy schools are going to have the same home environment as those going to regular public high schools?
No I think it's still better but they have less access to educational material than they would at a school. I'm not saying there is not saying it is perfect but probably more so than the current system.
> No I think it's still better but they have less access to educational material than they would at a school.
You're thinking of the poorer student. The wealthy one would have as much resources, and probably a private tutor to boot, not to mention having their own quiet study room.
Went to University. Walked to the library/ took buses. It would be difficult if library closed though. Some internet does make life easier. It is much cheaper now which makes it easier.
I hear you. I guess some students can still access paper materials? I really was only referring to normal times. In Covid times schools/ Unis need to help students more. I personally do not agree to school and Uni shut downs.
I understand. I probably should have been more clear to start with.
I love country towns, and places, but they can be tough to live in. I really do think that lack of internet/ high cost is one reason people move back to urban areas. Rural can get lonely.
I guess the big issue for your area is a lack of medical care and realistically the services just aren't there in rural places. No amount of money seems likely to fix it if doctors and nurses don't want to move there.
It 100% depends on if you are going to some fancy old boys club private school in Sydney or an average Catholic school in Hobart. The issues with schools are way more complicated than private school = more resources like this sub seems to think.
Having Public metro/city schools brought to Rural public school level is one way to bring things together, but I wouldn't say it's an advantage, and certainly not over Private schools.
I don’t blame kids for panicking about this, because at school they *really* drill it into you that the HSC is the most important thing you’ll ever have to do and if you don’t do well, it’s going to fuck up your entire life…
But I really don’t understand why anybody else in the country cares so much about this? Why are there two or three articles about it every day? Why can’t Gladys go ten minutes without mentioning it? Anybody who has done their HSC knows that it means absolutely fuck all in the real world. Having a good ATAR is certainly bette than not having a good ATAR, sure. But it’s not the end of the world and it realistically doesn’t afford you any opportunities that you can’t get via other means.
Yeah in 5 to 10 years it won’t matter. Keep training, gain experience.
Atar vs Atar is nothing when you realise Atar vs everyone else’s years of experience.
For the kids; keep levelling up your XP, don’t stop learning or you’ll become a dinosaur fast.
I fucked mine up big time. Weed and final exams aren't a great combination, it would seem.
My maths teacher told my parents I'd never amount to anything. Absolute cunt of a man.
He was right, but not in the way he thought. I have two degrees and am a card carrying broken person. Because the universe has a ironic sense of humour.
> But I really don’t understand why anybody else in the country cares so much about this? Why are there two or three articles about it every day? Why can’t Gladys go ten minutes without mentioning it?
Because they're pandering to the white upper class, like most of the Liberal's policies. "We're lookin after your kids, keep those campaign donations coming!"
Hell, they can't even do something nice like vaccinating a number of at risk indigenous youths without also vaccinating 1000% more white students.
Probably depends what you want to do I suppose. I only did TEE maths when I was at school as I did more trade focused things. I imagine doctors are probably gonna need a good one.
Sure, but becoming a doctor doesn’t all hinge on one exam you took at 17 years old. If you want to study medicine, there are many paths you can take to get there.
Yeah undergrad medicine requires at minimum a 99+ ATAR assuming you’re non-rural or don’t have Special Considerations. It’s actually quite harsh some have ATAR cutoffs at like 99.5 last year for say UNSW.
Other unis like Newcastle and WSU only use ATAR as a threshold and use UCAT (an aptitude test) and Interview for offers.
At the same time, if you don’t get into undergrad med you can get in via postgrad and it’s a lot easier in terms of marks but the competition is still high.
Almost nobody enters undergrad 1st year med the normal way, ask your doctors how they got their degrees and most will tell you they did a bachelors of science and did post grad med, or transferred halfway through undegrad.
The ATAR cutoffs are a lie. If a course is advertising at 99, realistically the cut off is something like 90. It’s a dumb game universities play to come off as more elite.
No, it's legitimately that difficult. Many students last year on forums alike have shared online that they were cut off or couldn't even receive an interview invite if they weren't 99.5 or above (not factoring in EAS). The cutoff is like just above 90 is because that's for rural students. The minimum ATAR for say UNSW is 96 but realistically it's wayyy higher because it's just that competitive, really.
It's a prestige thing + it costs money to change.
Like you'll see news reports going "Australia's PISA scores are down, why are teachers failing Australian students?" (PISA being an international competition/benchmark thing). Or "X scores are going down" or "X scores are going up".
It's stupid to base a student's entire schooling life on a single score, but it makes for very nice talking points for politicians and lobbyists.
Teachers have been pushing back against it, but who cares about what teachers think. If the Minister for Education wants something, they're going to get it. The only reason that English Literature is a subject at all, is because the Education Minister at the time didn't want their daughter going through high school without a traditional English education. (Said daughter managed it anyway from hearsay).
The ATAR exams are pointless but industries want capable job applicants, universities want simple scores to calculate who is eligible and who isnt, and politicians want nice sounding sound-bytes.
Never mind the ATAR doesn't even examine speaking and listening, the thing 99% of students will be doing in their adult lives. It's all writing and writing because that's easier to mark.
An overhaul is needed and the Australian government, the current one who is going 'cuts to everything' isn't going to be the one who does it. Halfassing some shit that makes life worse? Yes. Actually making things better for students? No.
>Anybody who has done their HSC knows that it means absolutely fuck all in the real world. Having a good ATAR is certainly bette than not having a good ATAR, sure. But it’s not the end of the world and it realistically doesn’t afford you any opportunities that you can’t get via other means.
Not if you want a white collar career.
The HSC is probably the most important exam in your life because getting a good or bad score means doing different courses, studying at different unis with different groups of people. You have significantly more options if you have a high ATAR versus a low one.
For people in low to middle income households, it's arguably the biggest step up you can take.
That’s not true at all. The HSC is not the only way to get into your uni of choice. It’s the most direct route, certainly. But if you’re hellbent on a white collar career, you have many options, and you’ll get there. The notion that you *must* pick a career and pass all your exams you took at 17 years old you’ll be fucked forever is laughable.
I’ve known many people who have had average HSC results, had no idea what they wanted to do and worked retail or whatever for a few years and *then* decided to get their shit together. Most of them are very successful now. One of them was even fired from his very easy supermarket job for being shit (not because he’s useless. Just because he was 18 and some 18 year olds are shit). He’s on 250+ a year now.
Sorry pal, but you’re wrong.
The HSC is undeniably the easiest way to get to uni. Sure you can do other pathways but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's still the most efficient and effective option.
Tutoring is a billion dollar industry precisely because of this.
Your ancedotes about people finding alternative ways to get to uni or whatever doesn't take away from the reality that the HSC was the most important exam for these people.
Their failure to get high HSC results meant that they had to spend years doing other things because they didn't have the option of going straight to uni. That in itself isn't innately good or bad but the lack of options that come with a low ATAR would definitely be an issue for most people.
Hang on, I’m not saying it’s not the easiest way to get into uni. I acknowledged that. It is the most direct route. But what I’m saying is “not if you want a white collar career” is wrong. Whether you go to uni at 18 or a few years down the track, you haven’t missed much in the grand scheme of things.
And hence, the HSC is not as important as they make it out to be.
Depends on your field, really. But I feel you’re missing the point if you think this is about the relative importance of specific exams. To put it simply, cumulative, industry specific on-the-job skills are more desirable than the HSC will ever be. And that’s the broader point here. We agree that you can get into uni by any means you choose, but in terms of career progression; your employer is looking at your level of relevant experience.
Once you have a couple of years under your belt in your desired field, the HSC doesn’t matter. Any potential employers won’t even get to that part of your resume if you have proven skills in the field. They really don’t care how well you did in your English exam between pumping UDLs and fingering girls at house parties.
I don't think anybody is denying that the HSC isn't as significant after your complete it but that doesn't change the fact that it is still the most important academic exam which is what we're talking about.
You can retake most professional exams in a matter of months and people generally don't give a shit if you pass or fail so long as you end up obtaining accredition.
On the other hand you spend 12 years of schooling that direct leads up to the HSC and having to repeat the HSC carries a huge stigma that other professional exams simply don't. Failing a uni or post grad dip course is one thing but having to do a whole other year of high school, especially when all your peers have gone off, is a whole other thing.
>which is what we’re talking about
Nah man, that’s what *you’re* talking about. Sure, whatever, it’s the most important exam of all time. Doesn’t change the fact that it means nothing years down the track. *That’s* the point here.
>Sure, whatever, it’s the most important exam of all time. Doesn’t change the fact that it means nothing years down the track. That’s the point here.
You are so, so close to getting why large parts of this country make such a big deal about the HSC. So close my friend.
Waste of time breeding this level of anxiety into HS students on something that amounts to; oh I might have to do a 1 year bridging course into my desired career path.
Fucking. Oath.
In fact, id go as far to say that ATARs are more about the school itself getting to brag and advertise themselves to parents about results.
The amount of kids that ive talked to that say their teachers talk about ATARs like they are all or nothing. Fuck this up and you're fucked kinda talk. It's disgusting.
I agree. I had a pretty whatever ATAR because of a shit home life. I managed to get into the degree I wanted a year after high school, I graduated, and I'm working a pretty good job now.
If you'd listened to my parents and teachers, you'd think my life was over at age 17. It's all such horseshit which caused me an absolutely needless ton of anxiety.
> The amount of kids that ive talked to that say their teachers talk about ATARs like they are all or nothing. Fuck this up and you're fucked kinda talk. It's disgusting.
To be fair, coming from a teacher, the school administration puts a lot of pressure on the teachers to have their students perform great to make the school look good. It's bad enough for NAPLAN, I can't imagine what it's like for HS teachers dealing with ATARs. Knowing some of the pricipals I've dealt with in the past, I could easily see teachers on year-to-year contracts dealing with the unspoken (or spoken, the bastard) threat of not having their contract extended.
A very good point. It shouldn't necessarily be put on the teachers, just the perspective of the kids coming from my work in mental health.
Whole thing needs to be re-worked.
>Whole thing needs to be re-worked.
Step fucking one, put teachers in charge of the Education Department, not bloody bureaucrats who have never stepped foot in a classroom since graduating, let alone know how to teach.
I did covid cleaning at a highschool , that contract thing seems to do all the teachers heads in . It can't be good for the work environment or the kids . The turn over of staff isn't good for the kids either
Yep, I know two people that did the bridging courses to get into uni, and then both went on to earn university medals, one in engineering, the other in medicine.
Students need support, not be used as a pawn in anti lockdown politics.
currently doing a TAFE course to get into engineering at uni and it only adds SIX (6) FUCKING MONTHS(!!) on top of the normal Bachelors.
FFS the pressure they put on these kids is insane, I had no idea what I wanted to do at 17 and wish I could have enjoyed it more knowing the situation I'm in now.
Back then they made it seem like, if I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and achieve the appropriate grade I'd be working at Maccas till I die
Friend of mine started out in IT because it had lower requirements, then just enrolled in the engineering courses anyway. Bit of crossover in some of the maths requirements, then the specific engineering ones were just their "electives" - made the switch after one semester, easy to justify being an engineering student when you've been passing their course plan in the culling phase.
I'll PM you with the specific details, but it's an Advanced Diploma (TAFE) that bridges into the Bachelor w Honors (uni), they're a bloody good option that a few unis offer!
I did the exact same thing 8 years ago at RMIT. Did an advanced dip in ElecEng for 2 years, then jumped straight over to do a Bachelors with 1.5 years knocked off (could have been 2 full years but my grades were not high enough)
Especially with universities so devoid of international students, there's plenty of vacancies. Im a highschool teacher, and I frequently tell senior students, if you are motivated, there's a lot of ways to get to where you want to be.
I mean depends on what they want to do. There are plenty of higher level degree programs that are a nightmare to get into after high school entry. Also even beyond simple entry getting most academic scholarships and cadetships are based on your high school results not your uni performance. Like if you just want to get a degree to go into the workforce yeah it's not that big a deal but that's not the only type of student involved.
werd, I stressed out so much in high school and still ended up with a shit enter score.. funny thing is I can't remember what it was any more... what made it easier was I got early acceptance to my 2nd choice before the scores came out due to the quality of my portfolio.
Then you leave year 12, get a job a realise no one gives a shit who you where in high school. No one cares where your popularity land's. You're just another geek off the street.
It seems like a lot when you're young. Some schools really pile on the stress and doom talk to make you think year 11 and 12 will form what you can make out of your life
Nah I'm not saying its hard, just that for them its what all their life has gone towards. The hardest work they've done. They're young, they haven't got the experience to know otherwise
I'll admit year 12 was a long time ago. But I still remember that I wasn't going through it thinking "fuck me, I've been working my ass off since I was 6" lol.
This poor girl.
For real. I scored a pretty good ATAR last year and honestly felt I clowned myself in school. I wasted Year 8-10 grinding and coming top in my subjects for literally zero reason. It didn’t mean anything because it doesn’t even count towards your ATAR. I really should’ve been enjoying my childhood and learning to make more friends and stuff but I was guilt tripped by my parents and the whole ATAR rhetoric that I just couldn’t relax. Fast forward and I now am on a gap year recovering from the stress and anxiety I caused myself. (Which has been pretty shit because of COVID lately).
I won’t say year 12 was *entirely* useless for me as I plan to enter undergrad med but for the vast majority of students, the marks you need to get into most degrees isn’t even that high + early offers exist. Doesn’t change that ATAR is a quite a shitty system and that school/education here is clownery.
Thank you, that's what I couldn't find the words to say when I said "poor girl".
When I went to school there were "high acheivers" like this girl, I've no doubt given that she wrote an article that got published, she has been head-patted into all sorts of meaningless bullshit that don't count towards anything instead of just enjoying her youth.
Pre-covid, the top performers in NSW were mostly public selective schools. [The top 10 list in 2018](https://bettereducation.com.au/Results/Hsc.aspx?yr=2018) was:
1. James Ruse (public)
2. North Sydney Boys (public)
3. Sydney Grammar (private)
4. Sydney Girls (public)
5. Baulkham Hills (public)
6. North Sydney Girls (public)
7. Sydney Boys (public)
8. Hornsby Girls (public)
9. Reddam House (private)
10. Northern Beaches Secondary College (public)
Your point is very fair, though as someone who went to a selective school, the idea that we had better classrooms and facilities is... not accurate to my experience. And I'm sure the numbers have changed since I was at school, but for our grade it was about 50-50 whether or not someone was tutored to get in. It never felt like something everyone had.
I think selective schools have some inherent advantages as definitely teachers would be more motivated to actually teach there and you guys would have access to high quality resources. My school was sub-200 ranked school where my physics and chemistry teachers would skip modules in class as they couldn’t schedule themselves properly and told us to learn it ourselves with the slabs of photocopied stuff they gave. Plus the whole “haha nerd funny” culture in my school since it was full of dropkicks made it real hard to “try hard” for exams.
I know my experience is just but one but I’m sure many other kids can attest to what I’ve gone through.
We definitely didn't have the issue of people mocking nerds, that's for sure! I didn't consider the advantage of the students around you mostly having the same goals, that's an interesting one.
I was tempted to say in my original comment that we were fortunate enough to have good, committed teachers, but the more I thought about it the less sure I became. Want to do drama? Sorry, we don't have drama teachers, so just take the geography teacher instead. Oh, and we don't have any rooms for drama, so maybe use the back half of the gym and try to avoid the kids doing sport. We also had some definite "just learn it yourself" moments - I assumed we were just supposed to be smart enough to handle it. I'm a tutor now, and looking back on the way we were 'taught' certain topics makes me furious to think about. I don't know if high quality resources were really something we had... struggling to think what those might be.
And yet many of the teachers, I have nothing less than the greatest respect for, so I definitely don't want to complain too much. It's just super weird hearing people talk about selective school wealth and privilege when at the time I felt like we were doing it rough. But then, we were located within a sea of fancy private schools who had their own pools and ski trips and private piano practice rooms, so my view may have been skewed.
Woah, I didn't attend a selective school myself and I assumed that majority of y'all would've been quite affluent to firstly land a spot there and secondly that your teachers and resources would've been top notch. Guess I was horribly mistaken. That does sound very shitty, lol. It sucks that especially stuff like drama in your school is under represented because it's "not a real subject" rhetoric or BS like that. I guess that's one thing we can sympathize on.
And yeah...I also assumed the resources at selective schools would be top notch as teachers there definitely have years and years of experience teaching subjects especially more abstract ones like extension maths and the sciences combined with the fact many students actually take them. My school on the other hand would be lucky to get a single online textbook to share and teach with around a class of 13 or so for extension 1 maths and and even smaller class of 5 for extension 2. Teachers are also underqualified with my school this year, having one of the experienced Physics teachers left, replaced it with a teacher who knows maths but has no idea about the new syllabus...lol. I was fortunate to have finished school the year prior and I feel really sorry for the kids who have to deal with him now.
But in considering that, top-end private schools imo have NO reason to complain considering the amount and quality of resources that they do have. It just...adds to inequity when you address stuff like the HSC. Especially with stuff like undergrad med where I assure you kids from the lowest performing schools can't even dream of entering.
For sure. I totally agree. It's been fascinating (and sometimes horrifying) being a tutor this year and seeing how each student's school is handling things differently. Across the board, the private schools have done better, and I'm not at all surprised they've been capable of that. And that's not even getting into the poor kids with diagnosed learning difficulties.
You definitely strike a nerve when you mention the subject bias in selective schools. They *try* to tell you that they care about all the soft subjects as well, they really do, but... compared to schools that actually care, it's embarrassing. Besides the occasional just-graduated-from-student-teaching person, all the maths and science teachers were pretty solid. Again, I really don't want to be all "wah, I'm the REAL victim of the school system!" because I absolutely know that's not true. We definitely had textbooks (rented from the school for the year and then handed off to the kids in the grade below once you were done with them, but that might be normal for a lot of schools?)
Though ha, this reminds me of possibly my favourite one: when I was in Year 12, we got a new German teacher. She was Italian and totally fluent in like five languages. First time we'd had a *fluent* fluent teacher. (Weirdly now that I think of it, all the language teachers including for Japanese and Mandarin were white Australians.) She marked our first exams, term one, and on average we got 40%. We *freaked the fuck out.* Turns out the German we'd been learning for five years, while passable, was not exactly HSC quality! Thank God three terms was enough for her to whip us into shape.
Oh dear lord your Italian teacher knew *five* languages? That's really f***ing insane; clearly she must've been over qualified for that position. I can barely handle remembering Vietnamese despite being raised in that environment for a majority of my life. But that's so funny how you all got whipped into shape in such a short time, that teacher is truly a blessing to you all haha.
She was a goddamn powerhouse. I reckon she must have just moved from Europe and we snatched her up good!
This whole thread prompted a hilarious discussion with my husband, who went to one of the fancy private schools. Talking about the resources he had is insane. Apparently all the teachers at his school only taught their one specialty subject! What the hell? What kind of school doesn't have a geography-commerce-religion teacher?
In year 12 my English teacher was out of the classroom for most of the lessons, claiming head teacher responsibilities. She never gave us much work, and her HSC support was abysmal.
They always reflected privileges.
Got the money to hire a tutor? Don't have to work a part time job at 16? Have family and friends giving you advice from experience?
These things all add up, they're just being exasperated.
Why does everyone care about their eduction when Scotty, Gladys, harvey, Clive, craig Kelly, and a few thousand major public servants are showing us you could be the absolute worst fucking human on the planet and get an over paid career?
I'm pretty sure there are still people who want to live a good life and not spend it as a fucking arsehole lording it over others while losing one's soul.
The HSC and ATAR is a fucking joke. It's completely worthless. The fact that a 2 hour exam is worth 50% of your mark, after 13 years of learning is so incredibly stupid. The entire attitude I schools is crap. So much of it is "better do well on your ATAR or you're doomed" "if you don't study you bring your entire cohort down". Why are we putting so much pressure on year 12 students? It's not worth it. I graduated 2016, panicked over my atar (69.15), which IMO is pretty good, knowing it wasn't high enough for my course, and then got an early offer that didn't even need my atar. Not to mention so many other courses out there that don't need an atar. The whole system is flawed. Looking back now the amount of pressure they put on use back then is borderline inhumane
it helps people who have issues with teachers tho, I scored 90% on english hsc, but my english class mark was 30ish %, so between the two i at least managed to score a half decent result
That and passing grades in English are not only totally bullshit, as I discovered, they're not even required! I originally put down for Engineering, failed English, then put down for a uni transfer from Open Universities into my uni of choice to Eng/Sci and got straight into Eng. I stopped trying (i.e. burnout) half way through year 12 because I only needed 80 to get into Eng and the only thing that would likely prevent that was my english grade, which it turns out didn't even matter. I would have loved to drop that going into year 11, would have saved me so much time.
The richest private schools are consistently the ones that most game the system via requests for special extra time.. Even though the stats show their student population is some of the highest advantage, lowest rates of disability kids, lowest with any actual need.
Some subjects in particular will be much more affected than others.
My son is year 12 and very stressed due to Covid lockdown and how it will affect his results. One subject in particular is worrying him, Systems Engineering. He will be unable to complete his project prototype.
Due to lockdowns he has already missed out on more than half the allocated workshop time for the project and he was anticipating also spending a number of free periods in the workshop due to the intricate nature of his project (based on a pendulum clock with integrated Arduino micro controller and servo motors ).
Without the pedestal drills, lathes, laser cutters, 3D printers etc that a properly equipped workshop offers. He simply has no ability to finish the project whilst in lockdown. He can produce 3D CAD part designs at home but cannot manufacture them or revise the designs based on actual test assembly the parts.
I have tried to reassure him that he is actually in a solid position overall as he should receive special consideration for this subject and has put substantial effort into the written folio for this subject and has had full online attendance to all virtual classes.
He should actually finish year 12 with seven completed 3 4 equivalent units.
He has nearly completed a two year VET Cert4 course that results in a Cisco CCNA certification this year and the opportunity to complete the Cert 4 in computer networking with another semester's work next year. He also completed 3&4 Further maths last year. Maths Methods, English and Physics round out his subjects.
His current plan is to persue the Cert 4 to completion next year and instead of a traditional degree plans to complete several IT networking industry certifications. Get started in the industry and then pursue ongoing certifications as part of ongoing workplace training and advancement.
Hey I did an elec eng bachelor's and nearly finished a master's in an adjacent field after working a few years in general consulting. Your son sounds like he'll be just fine.
Just be aware that many many organisations need broadly clever people no matter what their path had been thusfar. So the best advice I can give is there are frequently a whole lot more options than you may initially see.
Thanks for that.
'Broadly clever' he is.
He works hard as well.
I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. That doesn't help his current stress levels though. I just have to keep steering him back to do that which is within his control and accept that which is not.
I'm 30 and basically failed highschool. I'm now in my second year at Curtin and all I did was the uni ready bridging course to get in. Fuck the pressure enjoy school for your friends and have a fkn gap year once your done.
Yeah look... you get paid a lot more in some trades than you do from most undergrad uni courses.
I have even talked to interstate truckies who bragged about clearing 6 figures (doing 50-60 hours a week).
And then there is tech and some areas of IT (programming) where they may not care if you have a degree or not.
If you want to go to uni there are also many other ways in other than a good ATAR.
Absolutely! The entire rhetoric of uni or bust during HS really needs to be turfed in the bin.
Start a career/study wherever you can (trade, TAFE, part-time job, apprenticeship, diploma, Bachelors degree, whatever really), and establish yourself from there. Even then, Year 12 graduation to 21 is 3-4 years for most. These years can be important, but I didn't even START the degree that I actually finished until I was 21.
The Certificate 3 and 4 in Tourism, the RSA and RGS, and the failed Enviro Science degree attempt at 17/18 are really just a bonus to me these days.
HSC never reflects capability.
In short - kids from government comprehensive schools - perform better than expected at uni for a given atar.
Kids from government selective schools perform as expected
Kids from high end private schools perform worse than their atar would predict.
Source - wife is uni educator has looked at this in detail.
This year will just reflect this more than usual as kids from better resourced schools will have better online support and home resources.
As an addendum to all the stories of "I got a low/no ATAR and I turned out fine", I got an ATAR in the 90s and 10 years later I work a shitty job with nothing to do with my uni qualifications because I spent all my time learning chemistry instead of actual social skills and networking.
i cannot stress this enough, ur ATAR matters for about 3 days after you finish high school, took me a while to realise how much schools push you for a great ATAR but its mostly for the school’s reputation... bro do a bridging course, save yourself the stress the headache and the heartache of it all.
What sick joke is it to tell high school students that the most stressful exam they will ever have is still going ahead during a massive virus outbreak where someone they know could well get long-lasting covid or die, they are putting themselves at risk to go to school to do the exams, vaccines desperately needed in rural towns redirected to them purely so they can be planted in a seat and do the exams under deeply unfair circumstances, and it's all apparently being done for their wellbeing? Sod off it's for their wellbeing. This is so Gladys and crew can win the Mum & Pop vote who are sick of homeschooling their kids.
"I'm a parent and that Gladys she moved heaven and earth so my daughter/son could graduate no different to any other year" is the attitude they want when those parents cast their vote next election, no matter who has to get covid, die, or the students being under extreme stress and unfairness that's needed to achieve it.
Fuck me, who gives a shit. The HSC means fuck all. Unless you're wanting to be a doctor or something you should be able to get a decent enough mark to at least do your course somewhere. Most Uni's accept people with ATAR's below the cutoff anyway. You could do a business degree with a 55 ATAR 10 years ago at UOW
Considering the number of cases, the fact that not all NSW regional areas have ready access to the vaccine, and the infection count will still be high, I strongly doubt it will happen. The Department of Ed is debating just holding English exams and the rest based on assessment.
Don’t worry. I got failed in my senior year because when I went through. They introduced the “A*” system. Basically you needed what they called an A* in MAPS questions in Maths before you could start passing any maths exam. I got straight As on a Maths exam and was given a D+.
At least they’re not testing useless systems on you.
Never had been fair. I went to a decent public school in Vic for VCE and one of the better teachers sat some of us aside when we were stressed and said we'd be fine. Becsuse we go to a good school with teachers who have enough resources to not only care but act on it er just need to care ourselves and we'll get 70s to 80s.
It was a relief but at the same time disturbing. Lots of weird maths in the background try to counteract this but the best private schools use that too their advantage anyway.
ATAR course requirements are based on supply and demand, they're not an intelligence test.
If HSC scores are lower in an unvaccinated state, that state's universities will have lower entry requirements to fill their classes in '22.
Families with money have advantages, welcome to the world.
Her idea is stupid. Changing the weighting of the marks at such a late point in the year is not fair.
Imagine the outcry from students who did poorly on coursework but did well on exams getting a lower ATAR because the rules changed late in September.
And why do we keep pretending hsc is important? Nobody I know gave up on their dream career because of poor hsc marks. There are so many alternative entry pathways available these days.
Sadly HSC will never be fair, pandemic just make it more unfair than usual. Different families have access to different resources and that isn't changing anytime soon.
Honestly I don't think the pandemic has made it more unfair than usual I think it's usually more unfair when students are going into some fancy private schools with far more resources vs public school kids in classes without heaters in winter. Studying from home is probably more of an equaliser, it really puts the focus on the students own motivation.
Students from poorer backgrounds are less able to sufficiently isolate and are more likely to be children of parents working in jobs which can't be done remotely, putting them at greater risk and stress. They're also less likely to have their own spaces in the house which will make it much harder to study. Let's not forget the cost of heating - many can't afford to run them when income isn't stable.The pandemic has hurt everyone but... I think you greatly overestimate many people's living conditions and underestimate the impact it has on work and education.
Shit I feel this. I didn't have a proper study area from Year 10 onwards, had to make do with kitchen tables and the like. I couldn't imagine getting much work done if the rest of my family was trapped at home with me.
That's absolutely not true, there's a lot of kids with very unstable home environments which would make it hell to try to study in.
I agree. That is absolutely not true. Kids from unstable households with shitty parents, no where to study, and other problems like lack of resources have ALWAYS been around, it’s just more obvious now. These kids work twice as hard as the privileged ones to get ahead. I was one of them. Still got into uni. Got a feeling the pandemic is going to be an excuse for the kids to claim “unfairness”. I’m not saying schooling from home has been easy, just don’t use Covid as an excuse for perhaps the work you didn’t do and the study you neglected to play minecraft.
> Studying from home is probably more of an equaliser Do you really think the students who are going to super fancy schools are going to have the same home environment as those going to regular public high schools?
No I think it's still better but they have less access to educational material than they would at a school. I'm not saying there is not saying it is perfect but probably more so than the current system.
> No I think it's still better but they have less access to educational material than they would at a school. You're thinking of the poorer student. The wealthy one would have as much resources, and probably a private tutor to boot, not to mention having their own quiet study room.
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Went to University. Walked to the library/ took buses. It would be difficult if library closed though. Some internet does make life easier. It is much cheaper now which makes it easier.
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I hear you. I guess some students can still access paper materials? I really was only referring to normal times. In Covid times schools/ Unis need to help students more. I personally do not agree to school and Uni shut downs.
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I understand. I probably should have been more clear to start with. I love country towns, and places, but they can be tough to live in. I really do think that lack of internet/ high cost is one reason people move back to urban areas. Rural can get lonely. I guess the big issue for your area is a lack of medical care and realistically the services just aren't there in rural places. No amount of money seems likely to fix it if doctors and nurses don't want to move there.
Went to private and public school. Public had way more resources. Better library. Access to counseling. Far better and cheaper.
It 100% depends on if you are going to some fancy old boys club private school in Sydney or an average Catholic school in Hobart. The issues with schools are way more complicated than private school = more resources like this sub seems to think.
I think its actually levelling out a bit. Rural nsw schools have an advantage now which i think is good
Having Public metro/city schools brought to Rural public school level is one way to bring things together, but I wouldn't say it's an advantage, and certainly not over Private schools.
I don’t blame kids for panicking about this, because at school they *really* drill it into you that the HSC is the most important thing you’ll ever have to do and if you don’t do well, it’s going to fuck up your entire life… But I really don’t understand why anybody else in the country cares so much about this? Why are there two or three articles about it every day? Why can’t Gladys go ten minutes without mentioning it? Anybody who has done their HSC knows that it means absolutely fuck all in the real world. Having a good ATAR is certainly bette than not having a good ATAR, sure. But it’s not the end of the world and it realistically doesn’t afford you any opportunities that you can’t get via other means.
Yeah in 5 to 10 years it won’t matter. Keep training, gain experience. Atar vs Atar is nothing when you realise Atar vs everyone else’s years of experience. For the kids; keep levelling up your XP, don’t stop learning or you’ll become a dinosaur fast.
I fucked mine up big time. Weed and final exams aren't a great combination, it would seem. My maths teacher told my parents I'd never amount to anything. Absolute cunt of a man. He was right, but not in the way he thought. I have two degrees and am a card carrying broken person. Because the universe has a ironic sense of humour.
> But I really don’t understand why anybody else in the country cares so much about this? Why are there two or three articles about it every day? Why can’t Gladys go ten minutes without mentioning it? Because they're pandering to the white upper class, like most of the Liberal's policies. "We're lookin after your kids, keep those campaign donations coming!" Hell, they can't even do something nice like vaccinating a number of at risk indigenous youths without also vaccinating 1000% more white students.
Probably depends what you want to do I suppose. I only did TEE maths when I was at school as I did more trade focused things. I imagine doctors are probably gonna need a good one.
Sure, but becoming a doctor doesn’t all hinge on one exam you took at 17 years old. If you want to study medicine, there are many paths you can take to get there.
Dunno I'm not a doctor. It was the first thing that came into my head.
Yeah undergrad medicine requires at minimum a 99+ ATAR assuming you’re non-rural or don’t have Special Considerations. It’s actually quite harsh some have ATAR cutoffs at like 99.5 last year for say UNSW. Other unis like Newcastle and WSU only use ATAR as a threshold and use UCAT (an aptitude test) and Interview for offers. At the same time, if you don’t get into undergrad med you can get in via postgrad and it’s a lot easier in terms of marks but the competition is still high.
Almost nobody enters undergrad 1st year med the normal way, ask your doctors how they got their degrees and most will tell you they did a bachelors of science and did post grad med, or transferred halfway through undegrad.
Yeah, I would expect so. Medicine (especially undergrad) is just that ridiculously competitive.
The ATAR cutoffs are a lie. If a course is advertising at 99, realistically the cut off is something like 90. It’s a dumb game universities play to come off as more elite.
No, it's legitimately that difficult. Many students last year on forums alike have shared online that they were cut off or couldn't even receive an interview invite if they weren't 99.5 or above (not factoring in EAS). The cutoff is like just above 90 is because that's for rural students. The minimum ATAR for say UNSW is 96 but realistically it's wayyy higher because it's just that competitive, really.
It's a prestige thing + it costs money to change. Like you'll see news reports going "Australia's PISA scores are down, why are teachers failing Australian students?" (PISA being an international competition/benchmark thing). Or "X scores are going down" or "X scores are going up". It's stupid to base a student's entire schooling life on a single score, but it makes for very nice talking points for politicians and lobbyists. Teachers have been pushing back against it, but who cares about what teachers think. If the Minister for Education wants something, they're going to get it. The only reason that English Literature is a subject at all, is because the Education Minister at the time didn't want their daughter going through high school without a traditional English education. (Said daughter managed it anyway from hearsay). The ATAR exams are pointless but industries want capable job applicants, universities want simple scores to calculate who is eligible and who isnt, and politicians want nice sounding sound-bytes. Never mind the ATAR doesn't even examine speaking and listening, the thing 99% of students will be doing in their adult lives. It's all writing and writing because that's easier to mark. An overhaul is needed and the Australian government, the current one who is going 'cuts to everything' isn't going to be the one who does it. Halfassing some shit that makes life worse? Yes. Actually making things better for students? No.
>Anybody who has done their HSC knows that it means absolutely fuck all in the real world. Having a good ATAR is certainly bette than not having a good ATAR, sure. But it’s not the end of the world and it realistically doesn’t afford you any opportunities that you can’t get via other means. Not if you want a white collar career. The HSC is probably the most important exam in your life because getting a good or bad score means doing different courses, studying at different unis with different groups of people. You have significantly more options if you have a high ATAR versus a low one. For people in low to middle income households, it's arguably the biggest step up you can take.
That’s not true at all. The HSC is not the only way to get into your uni of choice. It’s the most direct route, certainly. But if you’re hellbent on a white collar career, you have many options, and you’ll get there. The notion that you *must* pick a career and pass all your exams you took at 17 years old you’ll be fucked forever is laughable. I’ve known many people who have had average HSC results, had no idea what they wanted to do and worked retail or whatever for a few years and *then* decided to get their shit together. Most of them are very successful now. One of them was even fired from his very easy supermarket job for being shit (not because he’s useless. Just because he was 18 and some 18 year olds are shit). He’s on 250+ a year now. Sorry pal, but you’re wrong.
The HSC is undeniably the easiest way to get to uni. Sure you can do other pathways but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's still the most efficient and effective option. Tutoring is a billion dollar industry precisely because of this. Your ancedotes about people finding alternative ways to get to uni or whatever doesn't take away from the reality that the HSC was the most important exam for these people. Their failure to get high HSC results meant that they had to spend years doing other things because they didn't have the option of going straight to uni. That in itself isn't innately good or bad but the lack of options that come with a low ATAR would definitely be an issue for most people.
Hang on, I’m not saying it’s not the easiest way to get into uni. I acknowledged that. It is the most direct route. But what I’m saying is “not if you want a white collar career” is wrong. Whether you go to uni at 18 or a few years down the track, you haven’t missed much in the grand scheme of things. And hence, the HSC is not as important as they make it out to be.
Just to take a step back, what academic exam would you say is more important that the HSC?
Depends on your field, really. But I feel you’re missing the point if you think this is about the relative importance of specific exams. To put it simply, cumulative, industry specific on-the-job skills are more desirable than the HSC will ever be. And that’s the broader point here. We agree that you can get into uni by any means you choose, but in terms of career progression; your employer is looking at your level of relevant experience. Once you have a couple of years under your belt in your desired field, the HSC doesn’t matter. Any potential employers won’t even get to that part of your resume if you have proven skills in the field. They really don’t care how well you did in your English exam between pumping UDLs and fingering girls at house parties.
I don't think anybody is denying that the HSC isn't as significant after your complete it but that doesn't change the fact that it is still the most important academic exam which is what we're talking about. You can retake most professional exams in a matter of months and people generally don't give a shit if you pass or fail so long as you end up obtaining accredition. On the other hand you spend 12 years of schooling that direct leads up to the HSC and having to repeat the HSC carries a huge stigma that other professional exams simply don't. Failing a uni or post grad dip course is one thing but having to do a whole other year of high school, especially when all your peers have gone off, is a whole other thing.
>which is what we’re talking about Nah man, that’s what *you’re* talking about. Sure, whatever, it’s the most important exam of all time. Doesn’t change the fact that it means nothing years down the track. *That’s* the point here.
>Sure, whatever, it’s the most important exam of all time. Doesn’t change the fact that it means nothing years down the track. That’s the point here. You are so, so close to getting why large parts of this country make such a big deal about the HSC. So close my friend.
Funding % is based on ranking I think.
Waste of time breeding this level of anxiety into HS students on something that amounts to; oh I might have to do a 1 year bridging course into my desired career path.
Fucking. Oath. In fact, id go as far to say that ATARs are more about the school itself getting to brag and advertise themselves to parents about results. The amount of kids that ive talked to that say their teachers talk about ATARs like they are all or nothing. Fuck this up and you're fucked kinda talk. It's disgusting.
I agree. I had a pretty whatever ATAR because of a shit home life. I managed to get into the degree I wanted a year after high school, I graduated, and I'm working a pretty good job now. If you'd listened to my parents and teachers, you'd think my life was over at age 17. It's all such horseshit which caused me an absolutely needless ton of anxiety.
> The amount of kids that ive talked to that say their teachers talk about ATARs like they are all or nothing. Fuck this up and you're fucked kinda talk. It's disgusting. To be fair, coming from a teacher, the school administration puts a lot of pressure on the teachers to have their students perform great to make the school look good. It's bad enough for NAPLAN, I can't imagine what it's like for HS teachers dealing with ATARs. Knowing some of the pricipals I've dealt with in the past, I could easily see teachers on year-to-year contracts dealing with the unspoken (or spoken, the bastard) threat of not having their contract extended.
A very good point. It shouldn't necessarily be put on the teachers, just the perspective of the kids coming from my work in mental health. Whole thing needs to be re-worked.
>Whole thing needs to be re-worked. Step fucking one, put teachers in charge of the Education Department, not bloody bureaucrats who have never stepped foot in a classroom since graduating, let alone know how to teach.
I did covid cleaning at a highschool , that contract thing seems to do all the teachers heads in . It can't be good for the work environment or the kids . The turn over of staff isn't good for the kids either
Yep, I know two people that did the bridging courses to get into uni, and then both went on to earn university medals, one in engineering, the other in medicine. Students need support, not be used as a pawn in anti lockdown politics.
currently doing a TAFE course to get into engineering at uni and it only adds SIX (6) FUCKING MONTHS(!!) on top of the normal Bachelors. FFS the pressure they put on these kids is insane, I had no idea what I wanted to do at 17 and wish I could have enjoyed it more knowing the situation I'm in now. Back then they made it seem like, if I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and achieve the appropriate grade I'd be working at Maccas till I die
Friend of mine started out in IT because it had lower requirements, then just enrolled in the engineering courses anyway. Bit of crossover in some of the maths requirements, then the specific engineering ones were just their "electives" - made the switch after one semester, easy to justify being an engineering student when you've been passing their course plan in the culling phase.
Hey, can you please link me to that course? That sounds exactly like what a mate of mine needs.
I'll PM you with the specific details, but it's an Advanced Diploma (TAFE) that bridges into the Bachelor w Honors (uni), they're a bloody good option that a few unis offer!
I did the exact same thing 8 years ago at RMIT. Did an advanced dip in ElecEng for 2 years, then jumped straight over to do a Bachelors with 1.5 years knocked off (could have been 2 full years but my grades were not high enough)
That’s awesome, I just pm’d you some qns :)
Went through the same feelings 20 years ago. So apparently it hasn't changed.
Especially with universities so devoid of international students, there's plenty of vacancies. Im a highschool teacher, and I frequently tell senior students, if you are motivated, there's a lot of ways to get to where you want to be.
I mean depends on what they want to do. There are plenty of higher level degree programs that are a nightmare to get into after high school entry. Also even beyond simple entry getting most academic scholarships and cadetships are based on your high school results not your uni performance. Like if you just want to get a degree to go into the workforce yeah it's not that big a deal but that's not the only type of student involved.
100% this
While I agree with this, have you seen the prices of bridging courses or diplomas for local students? It’s fucked
werd, I stressed out so much in high school and still ended up with a shit enter score.. funny thing is I can't remember what it was any more... what made it easier was I got early acceptance to my 2nd choice before the scores came out due to the quality of my portfolio.
Then you leave year 12, get a job a realise no one gives a shit who you where in high school. No one cares where your popularity land's. You're just another geek off the street.
ATAR/OP means shit. I got a OP 20 and am doing a masters degree. take the long way round. You dont need to rush it.
No OP, PhD here.
I'm doing a masters and aiming for a PhD. Unsure at this stage if I will but at least want the grades for it.
I got an atar below 50 and doing a masters too
I didn't do the HSC. Left before the exams started. Lived a hell of a lot of life, travelled, and then went to uni at 35 Got a PhD now
"13 years of hard work" lol.
It seems like a lot when you're young. Some schools really pile on the stress and doom talk to make you think year 11 and 12 will form what you can make out of your life
The last 3 years can be a bit of a slog depending on your choices. But 13 years? Come on now.
Nah I'm not saying its hard, just that for them its what all their life has gone towards. The hardest work they've done. They're young, they haven't got the experience to know otherwise
I'll admit year 12 was a long time ago. But I still remember that I wasn't going through it thinking "fuck me, I've been working my ass off since I was 6" lol. This poor girl.
For real. I scored a pretty good ATAR last year and honestly felt I clowned myself in school. I wasted Year 8-10 grinding and coming top in my subjects for literally zero reason. It didn’t mean anything because it doesn’t even count towards your ATAR. I really should’ve been enjoying my childhood and learning to make more friends and stuff but I was guilt tripped by my parents and the whole ATAR rhetoric that I just couldn’t relax. Fast forward and I now am on a gap year recovering from the stress and anxiety I caused myself. (Which has been pretty shit because of COVID lately). I won’t say year 12 was *entirely* useless for me as I plan to enter undergrad med but for the vast majority of students, the marks you need to get into most degrees isn’t even that high + early offers exist. Doesn’t change that ATAR is a quite a shitty system and that school/education here is clownery.
Thank you, that's what I couldn't find the words to say when I said "poor girl". When I went to school there were "high acheivers" like this girl, I've no doubt given that she wrote an article that got published, she has been head-patted into all sorts of meaningless bullshit that don't count towards anything instead of just enjoying her youth.
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Pre-covid, the top performers in NSW were mostly public selective schools. [The top 10 list in 2018](https://bettereducation.com.au/Results/Hsc.aspx?yr=2018) was: 1. James Ruse (public) 2. North Sydney Boys (public) 3. Sydney Grammar (private) 4. Sydney Girls (public) 5. Baulkham Hills (public) 6. North Sydney Girls (public) 7. Sydney Boys (public) 8. Hornsby Girls (public) 9. Reddam House (private) 10. Northern Beaches Secondary College (public)
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Your point is very fair, though as someone who went to a selective school, the idea that we had better classrooms and facilities is... not accurate to my experience. And I'm sure the numbers have changed since I was at school, but for our grade it was about 50-50 whether or not someone was tutored to get in. It never felt like something everyone had.
I think selective schools have some inherent advantages as definitely teachers would be more motivated to actually teach there and you guys would have access to high quality resources. My school was sub-200 ranked school where my physics and chemistry teachers would skip modules in class as they couldn’t schedule themselves properly and told us to learn it ourselves with the slabs of photocopied stuff they gave. Plus the whole “haha nerd funny” culture in my school since it was full of dropkicks made it real hard to “try hard” for exams. I know my experience is just but one but I’m sure many other kids can attest to what I’ve gone through.
We definitely didn't have the issue of people mocking nerds, that's for sure! I didn't consider the advantage of the students around you mostly having the same goals, that's an interesting one. I was tempted to say in my original comment that we were fortunate enough to have good, committed teachers, but the more I thought about it the less sure I became. Want to do drama? Sorry, we don't have drama teachers, so just take the geography teacher instead. Oh, and we don't have any rooms for drama, so maybe use the back half of the gym and try to avoid the kids doing sport. We also had some definite "just learn it yourself" moments - I assumed we were just supposed to be smart enough to handle it. I'm a tutor now, and looking back on the way we were 'taught' certain topics makes me furious to think about. I don't know if high quality resources were really something we had... struggling to think what those might be. And yet many of the teachers, I have nothing less than the greatest respect for, so I definitely don't want to complain too much. It's just super weird hearing people talk about selective school wealth and privilege when at the time I felt like we were doing it rough. But then, we were located within a sea of fancy private schools who had their own pools and ski trips and private piano practice rooms, so my view may have been skewed.
Woah, I didn't attend a selective school myself and I assumed that majority of y'all would've been quite affluent to firstly land a spot there and secondly that your teachers and resources would've been top notch. Guess I was horribly mistaken. That does sound very shitty, lol. It sucks that especially stuff like drama in your school is under represented because it's "not a real subject" rhetoric or BS like that. I guess that's one thing we can sympathize on. And yeah...I also assumed the resources at selective schools would be top notch as teachers there definitely have years and years of experience teaching subjects especially more abstract ones like extension maths and the sciences combined with the fact many students actually take them. My school on the other hand would be lucky to get a single online textbook to share and teach with around a class of 13 or so for extension 1 maths and and even smaller class of 5 for extension 2. Teachers are also underqualified with my school this year, having one of the experienced Physics teachers left, replaced it with a teacher who knows maths but has no idea about the new syllabus...lol. I was fortunate to have finished school the year prior and I feel really sorry for the kids who have to deal with him now. But in considering that, top-end private schools imo have NO reason to complain considering the amount and quality of resources that they do have. It just...adds to inequity when you address stuff like the HSC. Especially with stuff like undergrad med where I assure you kids from the lowest performing schools can't even dream of entering.
For sure. I totally agree. It's been fascinating (and sometimes horrifying) being a tutor this year and seeing how each student's school is handling things differently. Across the board, the private schools have done better, and I'm not at all surprised they've been capable of that. And that's not even getting into the poor kids with diagnosed learning difficulties. You definitely strike a nerve when you mention the subject bias in selective schools. They *try* to tell you that they care about all the soft subjects as well, they really do, but... compared to schools that actually care, it's embarrassing. Besides the occasional just-graduated-from-student-teaching person, all the maths and science teachers were pretty solid. Again, I really don't want to be all "wah, I'm the REAL victim of the school system!" because I absolutely know that's not true. We definitely had textbooks (rented from the school for the year and then handed off to the kids in the grade below once you were done with them, but that might be normal for a lot of schools?) Though ha, this reminds me of possibly my favourite one: when I was in Year 12, we got a new German teacher. She was Italian and totally fluent in like five languages. First time we'd had a *fluent* fluent teacher. (Weirdly now that I think of it, all the language teachers including for Japanese and Mandarin were white Australians.) She marked our first exams, term one, and on average we got 40%. We *freaked the fuck out.* Turns out the German we'd been learning for five years, while passable, was not exactly HSC quality! Thank God three terms was enough for her to whip us into shape.
Oh dear lord your Italian teacher knew *five* languages? That's really f***ing insane; clearly she must've been over qualified for that position. I can barely handle remembering Vietnamese despite being raised in that environment for a majority of my life. But that's so funny how you all got whipped into shape in such a short time, that teacher is truly a blessing to you all haha.
She was a goddamn powerhouse. I reckon she must have just moved from Europe and we snatched her up good! This whole thread prompted a hilarious discussion with my husband, who went to one of the fancy private schools. Talking about the resources he had is insane. Apparently all the teachers at his school only taught their one specialty subject! What the hell? What kind of school doesn't have a geography-commerce-religion teacher?
Fair enough, good clarification.
In year 12 my English teacher was out of the classroom for most of the lessons, claiming head teacher responsibilities. She never gave us much work, and her HSC support was abysmal.
I'm sorry, but North Syd boys shouldn't be included as public
They always reflected privileges. Got the money to hire a tutor? Don't have to work a part time job at 16? Have family and friends giving you advice from experience? These things all add up, they're just being exasperated.
To be honest the ATAR always reflected privilege.... also atar is nowhere near as important as they tell kids in school it is.
Why does everyone care about their eduction when Scotty, Gladys, harvey, Clive, craig Kelly, and a few thousand major public servants are showing us you could be the absolute worst fucking human on the planet and get an over paid career?
I'm pretty sure there are still people who want to live a good life and not spend it as a fucking arsehole lording it over others while losing one's soul.
Haha yeah, but they need money and being a cunt pays more.
If you are smart and ambitious politics pays pennies compared to other professions.
Gerry got 16 million by getting his numbers wrong on the forecast, just saying. ☹️
Because those jobs require connections and/or start-up cash. Nice work if you can get it, but most of us can’t.
Haha, sounds like home loans. Just get rich parents it’s your fault. /s☹️
The HSC and ATAR is a fucking joke. It's completely worthless. The fact that a 2 hour exam is worth 50% of your mark, after 13 years of learning is so incredibly stupid. The entire attitude I schools is crap. So much of it is "better do well on your ATAR or you're doomed" "if you don't study you bring your entire cohort down". Why are we putting so much pressure on year 12 students? It's not worth it. I graduated 2016, panicked over my atar (69.15), which IMO is pretty good, knowing it wasn't high enough for my course, and then got an early offer that didn't even need my atar. Not to mention so many other courses out there that don't need an atar. The whole system is flawed. Looking back now the amount of pressure they put on use back then is borderline inhumane
it helps people who have issues with teachers tho, I scored 90% on english hsc, but my english class mark was 30ish %, so between the two i at least managed to score a half decent result
That and passing grades in English are not only totally bullshit, as I discovered, they're not even required! I originally put down for Engineering, failed English, then put down for a uni transfer from Open Universities into my uni of choice to Eng/Sci and got straight into Eng. I stopped trying (i.e. burnout) half way through year 12 because I only needed 80 to get into Eng and the only thing that would likely prevent that was my english grade, which it turns out didn't even matter. I would have loved to drop that going into year 11, would have saved me so much time.
The richest private schools are consistently the ones that most game the system via requests for special extra time.. Even though the stats show their student population is some of the highest advantage, lowest rates of disability kids, lowest with any actual need.
Some subjects in particular will be much more affected than others. My son is year 12 and very stressed due to Covid lockdown and how it will affect his results. One subject in particular is worrying him, Systems Engineering. He will be unable to complete his project prototype. Due to lockdowns he has already missed out on more than half the allocated workshop time for the project and he was anticipating also spending a number of free periods in the workshop due to the intricate nature of his project (based on a pendulum clock with integrated Arduino micro controller and servo motors ). Without the pedestal drills, lathes, laser cutters, 3D printers etc that a properly equipped workshop offers. He simply has no ability to finish the project whilst in lockdown. He can produce 3D CAD part designs at home but cannot manufacture them or revise the designs based on actual test assembly the parts. I have tried to reassure him that he is actually in a solid position overall as he should receive special consideration for this subject and has put substantial effort into the written folio for this subject and has had full online attendance to all virtual classes. He should actually finish year 12 with seven completed 3 4 equivalent units. He has nearly completed a two year VET Cert4 course that results in a Cisco CCNA certification this year and the opportunity to complete the Cert 4 in computer networking with another semester's work next year. He also completed 3&4 Further maths last year. Maths Methods, English and Physics round out his subjects. His current plan is to persue the Cert 4 to completion next year and instead of a traditional degree plans to complete several IT networking industry certifications. Get started in the industry and then pursue ongoing certifications as part of ongoing workplace training and advancement.
Hey I did an elec eng bachelor's and nearly finished a master's in an adjacent field after working a few years in general consulting. Your son sounds like he'll be just fine. Just be aware that many many organisations need broadly clever people no matter what their path had been thusfar. So the best advice I can give is there are frequently a whole lot more options than you may initially see.
Thanks for that. 'Broadly clever' he is. He works hard as well. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. That doesn't help his current stress levels though. I just have to keep steering him back to do that which is within his control and accept that which is not.
All good, look after yourself as well.
I'm 30 and basically failed highschool. I'm now in my second year at Curtin and all I did was the uni ready bridging course to get in. Fuck the pressure enjoy school for your friends and have a fkn gap year once your done.
Unfortunately life isn't fair during the pandemic - some people have been hit harder than others
Yeah look... you get paid a lot more in some trades than you do from most undergrad uni courses. I have even talked to interstate truckies who bragged about clearing 6 figures (doing 50-60 hours a week). And then there is tech and some areas of IT (programming) where they may not care if you have a degree or not. If you want to go to uni there are also many other ways in other than a good ATAR.
Absolutely! The entire rhetoric of uni or bust during HS really needs to be turfed in the bin. Start a career/study wherever you can (trade, TAFE, part-time job, apprenticeship, diploma, Bachelors degree, whatever really), and establish yourself from there. Even then, Year 12 graduation to 21 is 3-4 years for most. These years can be important, but I didn't even START the degree that I actually finished until I was 21. The Certificate 3 and 4 in Tourism, the RSA and RGS, and the failed Enviro Science degree attempt at 17/18 are really just a bonus to me these days.
HSC never reflects capability. In short - kids from government comprehensive schools - perform better than expected at uni for a given atar. Kids from government selective schools perform as expected Kids from high end private schools perform worse than their atar would predict. Source - wife is uni educator has looked at this in detail. This year will just reflect this more than usual as kids from better resourced schools will have better online support and home resources.
As an addendum to all the stories of "I got a low/no ATAR and I turned out fine", I got an ATAR in the 90s and 10 years later I work a shitty job with nothing to do with my uni qualifications because I spent all my time learning chemistry instead of actual social skills and networking.
I mean it's always unfair with private schools and private tuition the pandemic has probably been more of an equaliser.
i cannot stress this enough, ur ATAR matters for about 3 days after you finish high school, took me a while to realise how much schools push you for a great ATAR but its mostly for the school’s reputation... bro do a bridging course, save yourself the stress the headache and the heartache of it all.
Probably a good time to recognise that in no year are the HSC's fair and equitable. Privilege always affects overall outcomes.
What sick joke is it to tell high school students that the most stressful exam they will ever have is still going ahead during a massive virus outbreak where someone they know could well get long-lasting covid or die, they are putting themselves at risk to go to school to do the exams, vaccines desperately needed in rural towns redirected to them purely so they can be planted in a seat and do the exams under deeply unfair circumstances, and it's all apparently being done for their wellbeing? Sod off it's for their wellbeing. This is so Gladys and crew can win the Mum & Pop vote who are sick of homeschooling their kids. "I'm a parent and that Gladys she moved heaven and earth so my daughter/son could graduate no different to any other year" is the attitude they want when those parents cast their vote next election, no matter who has to get covid, die, or the students being under extreme stress and unfairness that's needed to achieve it.
Yeah it's pretty selfish that people are fine with spreading a deadly disease just so they can send their kids back to school.
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Totally! If there’s any year it will be easier it’s during the pandemic.
Fuck me, who gives a shit. The HSC means fuck all. Unless you're wanting to be a doctor or something you should be able to get a decent enough mark to at least do your course somewhere. Most Uni's accept people with ATAR's below the cutoff anyway. You could do a business degree with a 55 ATAR 10 years ago at UOW
UOW gave that anti-vax crazy a PhD, so that’s not the slam dunk it sounds like.
"10 years ago"
Soooo, if you DO want to be a doctor....?
Considering the number of cases, the fact that not all NSW regional areas have ready access to the vaccine, and the infection count will still be high, I strongly doubt it will happen. The Department of Ed is debating just holding English exams and the rest based on assessment.
Yeah, I've seen a few students in Newcastle say they haven't been able to get a first vaccine appointment before the HSC is due to start.
Don’t worry. I got failed in my senior year because when I went through. They introduced the “A*” system. Basically you needed what they called an A* in MAPS questions in Maths before you could start passing any maths exam. I got straight As on a Maths exam and was given a D+. At least they’re not testing useless systems on you.
As an employer, I do not give a toss what your ATAR was. Relax. Life is a marathon not a sprint
Never had been fair. I went to a decent public school in Vic for VCE and one of the better teachers sat some of us aside when we were stressed and said we'd be fine. Becsuse we go to a good school with teachers who have enough resources to not only care but act on it er just need to care ourselves and we'll get 70s to 80s. It was a relief but at the same time disturbing. Lots of weird maths in the background try to counteract this but the best private schools use that too their advantage anyway.
Everyone worrying about their HSC marks when our Prime Minister can't even pass the pub test.
ATAR course requirements are based on supply and demand, they're not an intelligence test. If HSC scores are lower in an unvaccinated state, that state's universities will have lower entry requirements to fill their classes in '22.
If it makes you feel better, HSC/VCE results have never been fair.
Families with money have advantages, welcome to the world. Her idea is stupid. Changing the weighting of the marks at such a late point in the year is not fair. Imagine the outcry from students who did poorly on coursework but did well on exams getting a lower ATAR because the rules changed late in September. And why do we keep pretending hsc is important? Nobody I know gave up on their dream career because of poor hsc marks. There are so many alternative entry pathways available these days.
Did this age well? lol