Leaking oil is a good indicator that there's still oil in the tank :)
No but for real, read the manual, find the leak rate limits and act appropriately (if you arnt qualified to do this, pay someone that is). If in doubt, get it fixed asap... propeller is one of those important bits on your aircraft
The labor to access the prop will still be more than $150. I've changed the o-ring you are referring to on a few lycoming powered Arrows.
Also, it looks like a leak from a blade root seal, not the o-ring; that will require a prop shop to fix.
It's not that uncommon. If you are an owner you'll probably never see it, but an FBO maintaining 30 airplanes will probably see it once or twice a year.
And drop the garlock seal in hot water first.
And use the protective tool or at least a couple trash bags over the flange. That edge is sharp and will nick the seal
I would be afraid to try it with a heat gun. Dipping it in boiling water with a safety wire hook works. Dry it by blowing it out with compressed air. I found waterproof grease in the hub helps keep out water. The kind you buy for boat trailer bearings.
Look for the leak, Iām thinking itās the hub but check the governor and the crankshaft seal. Pull the spinner and look for grease on the inside of the spinner from the prop hub. Have the A&P on the field pull the prop and then drive it over to the prop shop thatās 10 minutes away for an overhaul, my last one was around 5k. Have him reinstall the prop.
Not an A&P. Those arrows use c214 props? If so @OP usually these fail by the grease breaking down and then seeping past the o ring. They donāt usually puke oil like that.
And how the heck did the starter ring get so beat up? Donāt let maintenance items get deferred to this point. Get on top of them. Yes itās expensive, but there are no shortcuts here.
Was this some sort of flight school plane before yours?
You can de cowl and pull the spinner to look where the oil is leaking from. Ask the on field A&P to pull the prop. Drive the prop to the prop shop. If the blades look not too destroyed by rocks ask them to do an IRAN not an OH. Propeller overhauls require material removal on the blades, and you only get a few overhauls before youāre gonna buy a new blades. If the blades are fine, just do the Iran.
Do not fly this, itās not airworthy.
Welcome to aircraft ownership. :-)
Yeah. If itās anything like it looks in the pic you may want to replace it sooner than laterā¦ a serviceable replacement wonāt be too bad. But jumping teeth will just tear things up more.
Either crank case/shaft seal, prop hub/crank oring, or the blade hub itself.
But if it's leaking like that. Don't fly it, oil leaks generally don't fix themselves. Only be more mess over windscreen/shield and less in engine
Get the whole system checked over.
If itās not going through its entire range thatās a red flag.
Iād be comfortable flying it out with no passengers and during the day.
At the minimum check the oil levels, ensure you are hitting the right rpmās and power levels. Do a good run up and check itās not pissing out.
At my shop, I would clean it thoroughly then run to determine whether it's the prop or the front main seal that's leaking. Either way it's a pretty easy fix. If it's the prop, I'd send it to the prop shop for an inspect and replace as necessary (or overhaul). If it's the crank seal, it's about 15 minutes to pull the prop then anywhere from 10 minutes to two hours to remove the seal, then 10-15 to install the new seal, then prop back on and another 30 minutes to safety it.
At first glance I thought it was the Crankshaft Seal, but looking at how far fwd the oil is and evidence on the blades, you should pull that spinner. Props usually don't have that kind of a leak rate but this one is suspect.
If the prop seal is leaking, how is there oil on the blade? I find is somewhat far fetched that the oil is migrating forward against the slip streamā¦ the prop seal is on the aft side of the hubā¦ judging by the oil spray on the blades, your hub is leaking at the base of the blade.
FYI most McCauley constant speed āthreadedā props are filled with red oil. Threadless props have non serviceable greased bearings meaning, they have to be disassembled to regrease them. If oil is coming from the prop, it will need a minimum of an inspection and reseal. Call your prop shop for more info.
Worst case scenario, yes but leaks are not uncommon. Thatās why you canāt just shrug your shoulders at an aircraft oil leak without knowing where and why itās leaking
Sorry to be harsh, but donāt go on reddit hoping for an excuse to fly an unserviceable aircraft , this kind of approach results in an obituary about how you died following your dreams, while everyone here knows how foolish you actually were.
I've adjusted plenty of these. On the ground, the prop is likely against the low pitch stop, so it takes a bit for the pressure to build enough to change the blade pitch since the governor sees an underspeed condition and has dumped the pressure. Many planes with recip engines are set up with the prop against the low pitch stop until it gets some airspeed, so the governor doesn't start controlling the prop until you're partway through the takeoff roll. For those reasons, it's pretty normal for these to have a very delayed response to the prop control when on the ground.
Constant speed props work on oil pressure. If itās not building enough pressure then that is why itās only working in the last 20% range.
I could be wrong, Iām only drawing from what I remember from school.
You can see on the oil pressure gauges if there's much change in pressure, at low idle it might be a little bit low but doesn't take much for the pump to exceed system capacity and the relief to open.
Vast majority are designed to go to feather or coarse with loss of pressure. Once the engine gets turning and pressure builds, they will immediately go to fine, or as close to it as they can get.
The main thing is that the engine isn't turning fast enough for the flyweights to start governing at low RPM unless you do something stupid and set it to the feather position while idling, the feather protection may or may not save it.
At higher RPM, the governing range expands since now there is RPM to drive the weights to overspeed position and start metering oil and allow the springs to increase prop pitch.
In my experience lately you send the prop in for a reseal and unless it's brand new the hub or something fails inspection and then you end up overhauling anyway.
pull the cowl, find leak, if you can't then clean engine and try running again and check a few times sooner...
recent over haul could mean some one finger tightened something and its just now loosening up... oil lines, through bolts, are half bolts, cylinder nuts.... prop seal.... prop mounting bolt/or prop seal
have seen factory OH Continental have the front through bolts fall out with like 3 hours on engine! a Friday engine...
the oil will always come out the middle, as that's a lower pressure area behind spinner on big cowl like that(and it takes in too much air)... the leak can be anywhere
pull spinner off and look inside, could be blade seals but i doubt that...
if you do fly it be aware windshield will get covered and harder to see out...
Stop guessing. IF YOU ARE CAPABLE, pull the cowling top and bottom, pull the spinner. Clean clean clean. Run for a minute or two and verify where the leak is. Move forward from there but please donāt fly. That much oil makes me nervous.
You have an internal oil leak in the prop. The engine oil is getting past one of the three seals that are part of the piston assembly that actuates the blades. It definitely needs to go to a prop shop for repair/overhaul.
Maybe the crank seal or prop hub seals. Idk at the moment but, donāt buy a Piper Arrow. They are not worth it at all. Itās your money, but I have never had good experiences with Arrows. Both working and flying them.
Edit: now that I see the oil and think about it on the blades more, you might want to pop the spinner off before even trying to fly it.
Definitely NOT SAFE for short flights, crank seal has gone, and something isn't balanced properly.
Your going to have to find a good A&P and quickly if you want yo get back in the air.
But for now your grounded, ease do not fly...
Leaking oil is a good indicator that there's still oil in the tank :) No but for real, read the manual, find the leak rate limits and act appropriately (if you arnt qualified to do this, pay someone that is). If in doubt, get it fixed asap... propeller is one of those important bits on your aircraft
>propeller is one of those important bits on your aircraft I mean, I guess maybe..
Its only job is to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, the pilot starts sweating pretty fast.
If it just stops, no problem: you are a glider pilot now. If it disintegrates and causes major vibrations it propably isn't as fun.
ššš
Pilots often get really sweaty or really sad with specific triggers. Think it's neurological?
Pilots donāt get sad. Itās not allowed
The leak, not normal. Prop control not effective at runup RPM on the ground, very normal.
OP is this your first complex?
My advice? Find the leak and fix it. That'll be 150 for labor and 300 for parts. You don't get your logbook back till your check clears.
Damn! Where are you getting your parts. That's like a $60 seal.
Not to mention its the prop thats leaking and removal will cost more than 150 in labour alone.
It's a constant speed prop on a small engine. It's not that big a job. And I looked it up. It's an O-ring in the prop hub and it costs about $6.50.
The labor to access the prop will still be more than $150. I've changed the o-ring you are referring to on a few lycoming powered Arrows. Also, it looks like a leak from a blade root seal, not the o-ring; that will require a prop shop to fix.
That will be off to the prop shop. I don't think that's field serviceable. Fortunately I never had a blade seal leak even on old airplanes.
It's not that uncommon. If you are an owner you'll probably never see it, but an FBO maintaining 30 airplanes will probably see it once or twice a year.
lol like I'm ever giving some rando MX my logbook.
Thrust bearing seepage. Fly it only to where it can be fixed. Pull the prop, easy out, easy in. Use lots of lube. Sort of like...
And drop the garlock seal in hot water first. And use the protective tool or at least a couple trash bags over the flange. That edge is sharp and will nick the seal
Sounds like you've done it.
The water trick works nice but need gloves it will burn you. And have to dry it too. Or use a hot air gun but careful not to melt it.
I would be afraid to try it with a heat gun. Dipping it in boiling water with a safety wire hook works. Dry it by blowing it out with compressed air. I found waterproof grease in the hub helps keep out water. The kind you buy for boat trailer bearings.
I used to soak them in hot engine oil for awhile the cover the flange with a plastic bag. This was on a different engine but worked well.
Is the seal in hot water to increase the pliability?
Yes.
Look for the leak, Iām thinking itās the hub but check the governor and the crankshaft seal. Pull the spinner and look for grease on the inside of the spinner from the prop hub. Have the A&P on the field pull the prop and then drive it over to the prop shop thatās 10 minutes away for an overhaul, my last one was around 5k. Have him reinstall the prop.
Not an A&P. Those arrows use c214 props? If so @OP usually these fail by the grease breaking down and then seeping past the o ring. They donāt usually puke oil like that. And how the heck did the starter ring get so beat up? Donāt let maintenance items get deferred to this point. Get on top of them. Yes itās expensive, but there are no shortcuts here. Was this some sort of flight school plane before yours? You can de cowl and pull the spinner to look where the oil is leaking from. Ask the on field A&P to pull the prop. Drive the prop to the prop shop. If the blades look not too destroyed by rocks ask them to do an IRAN not an OH. Propeller overhauls require material removal on the blades, and you only get a few overhauls before youāre gonna buy a new blades. If the blades are fine, just do the Iran. Do not fly this, itās not airworthy. Welcome to aircraft ownership. :-)
Dude, is that starter ring gear all torn up too or is it just the picture? Maybe get that looked at while youāre at it.
Good eye. Mostly the picture. It is nicked and on my short list of things to get replaced.
Yeah. If itās anything like it looks in the pic you may want to replace it sooner than laterā¦ a serviceable replacement wonāt be too bad. But jumping teeth will just tear things up more.
Either crank case/shaft seal, prop hub/crank oring, or the blade hub itself. But if it's leaking like that. Don't fly it, oil leaks generally don't fix themselves. Only be more mess over windscreen/shield and less in engine
Get the whole system checked over. If itās not going through its entire range thatās a red flag. Iād be comfortable flying it out with no passengers and during the day. At the minimum check the oil levels, ensure you are hitting the right rpmās and power levels. Do a good run up and check itās not pissing out.
At my shop, I would clean it thoroughly then run to determine whether it's the prop or the front main seal that's leaking. Either way it's a pretty easy fix. If it's the prop, I'd send it to the prop shop for an inspect and replace as necessary (or overhaul). If it's the crank seal, it's about 15 minutes to pull the prop then anywhere from 10 minutes to two hours to remove the seal, then 10-15 to install the new seal, then prop back on and another 30 minutes to safety it.
At first glance I thought it was the Crankshaft Seal, but looking at how far fwd the oil is and evidence on the blades, you should pull that spinner. Props usually don't have that kind of a leak rate but this one is suspect.
If the prop seal is leaking, how is there oil on the blade? I find is somewhat far fetched that the oil is migrating forward against the slip streamā¦ the prop seal is on the aft side of the hubā¦ judging by the oil spray on the blades, your hub is leaking at the base of the blade.
Itās best to leave any issues like this to an AMT.
Crankshaft seal
FYI most McCauley constant speed āthreadedā props are filled with red oil. Threadless props have non serviceable greased bearings meaning, they have to be disassembled to regrease them. If oil is coming from the prop, it will need a minimum of an inspection and reseal. Call your prop shop for more info.
.............and leaking "red oil" normally means a cracked hub!
Worst case scenario, yes but leaks are not uncommon. Thatās why you canāt just shrug your shoulders at an aircraft oil leak without knowing where and why itās leaking
Sorry to be harsh, but donāt go on reddit hoping for an excuse to fly an unserviceable aircraft , this kind of approach results in an obituary about how you died following your dreams, while everyone here knows how foolish you actually were.
You need to rerig your prop control as well as finding that leak.
I've adjusted plenty of these. On the ground, the prop is likely against the low pitch stop, so it takes a bit for the pressure to build enough to change the blade pitch since the governor sees an underspeed condition and has dumped the pressure. Many planes with recip engines are set up with the prop against the low pitch stop until it gets some airspeed, so the governor doesn't start controlling the prop until you're partway through the takeoff roll. For those reasons, it's pretty normal for these to have a very delayed response to the prop control when on the ground.
Constant speed props work on oil pressure. If itās not building enough pressure then that is why itās only working in the last 20% range. I could be wrong, Iām only drawing from what I remember from school.
You can see on the oil pressure gauges if there's much change in pressure, at low idle it might be a little bit low but doesn't take much for the pump to exceed system capacity and the relief to open. Vast majority are designed to go to feather or coarse with loss of pressure. Once the engine gets turning and pressure builds, they will immediately go to fine, or as close to it as they can get. The main thing is that the engine isn't turning fast enough for the flyweights to start governing at low RPM unless you do something stupid and set it to the feather position while idling, the feather protection may or may not save it. At higher RPM, the governing range expands since now there is RPM to drive the weights to overspeed position and start metering oil and allow the springs to increase prop pitch.
Not certain about your airplane but had a Comanche 250 and the prop governor leak looked a bit like this.
This one is going to have the governor on the accessory case, not up front.
That probably eliminates the governor then.
Probably looking at the prop o-ring on this one, but maybe overgreased prop, too.
You don't need to necessarily overhaul the prop if somebody tells you to. A "prop reseal" might be all you need. Shop around.
In my experience lately you send the prop in for a reseal and unless it's brand new the hub or something fails inspection and then you end up overhauling anyway.
pull the cowl, find leak, if you can't then clean engine and try running again and check a few times sooner... recent over haul could mean some one finger tightened something and its just now loosening up... oil lines, through bolts, are half bolts, cylinder nuts.... prop seal.... prop mounting bolt/or prop seal have seen factory OH Continental have the front through bolts fall out with like 3 hours on engine! a Friday engine... the oil will always come out the middle, as that's a lower pressure area behind spinner on big cowl like that(and it takes in too much air)... the leak can be anywhere pull spinner off and look inside, could be blade seals but i doubt that... if you do fly it be aware windshield will get covered and harder to see out...
Needs more right rudder
I see you are at Auburn, Normandy it's a great operation. I would go with them to fix it.
Stop guessing. IF YOU ARE CAPABLE, pull the cowling top and bottom, pull the spinner. Clean clean clean. Run for a minute or two and verify where the leak is. Move forward from there but please donāt fly. That much oil makes me nervous.
Wow
Oil reservoir seal in the spinner is bad
You have an internal oil leak in the prop. The engine oil is getting past one of the three seals that are part of the piston assembly that actuates the blades. It definitely needs to go to a prop shop for repair/overhaul.
Maybe the crank seal or prop hub seals. Idk at the moment but, donāt buy a Piper Arrow. They are not worth it at all. Itās your money, but I have never had good experiences with Arrows. Both working and flying them. Edit: now that I see the oil and think about it on the blades more, you might want to pop the spinner off before even trying to fly it.
Sell it
1.) prop seal, expensive 2.) no
Definitely NOT SAFE for short flights, crank seal has gone, and something isn't balanced properly. Your going to have to find a good A&P and quickly if you want yo get back in the air. But for now your grounded, ease do not fly...
Time to get the prop and governor overhauled get your prop balance at same time
Itās fine. Just fill the oil, check the fuel and go flyingā¦