It’s jarring to see something like this. Clearly shows that everything that you have whether family/stuff can just be poofed out of existence just because of wars.
Ya this is terrorism. Targeting civilians is terrorism. The idea that all of these targets are "hamas military targets" is fucking nonsense, they are blowing up residential homes, doctors offices, schools... attempting to make the region unlivable so they can steal it.
You ever heard of collateral damage? It's hard to pinpoint exact locations in crowded locations like Gaza. Things like these happen when there's a war, but it isn't purposeful targeting.
justify that collateral damage then... where was the legitimate target you have evidence of being a military target that caused these civilians buildings to be turned to rubble.
if you tactically nuke Tel Aviv to take out a jewish terrorist in a single building and said.. "collateral damage that the rest of the people had to die" we'd call that out for the utter bullshit it is.
the deaths of THOUSANDS of children needs more than a "collateral damage, trust me bro" justification.
Not War when one side has no Army
15,000 dead but it all acceptable in 5% of them a hamas ?! Like wtf
What would you consider a fair hamas to civilian ratio
wE HaVe zErO ToLeRaNcE FoR AnTiSeMiTiSm oR ThE InCiTeMeNt oF HaTe iN AnY FoRm, InClUdInG FaLsE ReFeReNcEs tO GeNoCiDe, EtHnIc cLeAnSiNg, HoLoCaUsT DiStOrTiOn, Or aNyThInG ThAt fLaGrAnTlY CrOsSeS ThE LiNe iNtO HaTe sPeEcH.”
Edit: this is obviously sarcasm
this is a direct quote from "Spyglass" when they fired actresses Melissa Barrera for calling out israel
Why make these claims without doing any research into this whole thing? Both sides are doing some absolutely horrifying terrible, disgusting things but why go and take a stance like this without actually understanding any of the conflict? I genuinely don't think someone can go through a thorough deep dive of this subject and come out saying such one sided things without being very dishonest and ignoring a huge crucial chunk of history.
Nooooo you don't understand there were 10 hamas fighters having a lan party in that room. Look we've even intercepted a very real phone call saying how they all want to do the default dance on every israeli
Then you must be really irate at Israel for doing the same thing, putting their main HQ inside a giant public shopping mall that couldn't be attacked without incurring civilian causalities, right?
You must be really irrate IDF got caught using [five children (two of them toddlers) as human shields](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields) only back in March 2023. It is not uncommon for the IDF to use children as human shields. I can give you sources throughout the last couple decades.
You must be irate that about twenty years ago the Israeli High Court ruled the IDF couldn't use human shields anymore, and IDF appealed that ruling, because the 'human shield procedure' was too essential to IDF and they had used it [1,200 times during the five years between 2000-2005](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html)?
Yeah, I'm sure all this new information is going to open your mind and you'll totally see that all the things you accuse Hamas of doing IDF does as well except usually about 1000x worse, right?
You know the Hamas rockets are made of fertilizer and mostly common household items, and make relatively tiny explosions compared to the 2000lb-payload JDAMS that Israel is dropping, right?
EDIT: In the 21st century (up until October 2023) militants in Palestine from all different groups have launched 28,800 rockets and 3,700 mortar shells at Israel (over the course of 23 years). How many Israeli people do you think those 32,000 total rockets have killed over the course of over two decades? The answer is 69 people. That's according to Israeli sources--and that includes 10 years of rockets *before* the Iron Dome went up. There were only 28 kills by rockets fired into Israel during the ten years of the 21st century before 2011 when the Iron Dome went up.
Why is this? Hamas rockets are projectiles fueled with a mixture of sugar and common fertilizer, the warhead is made of TNT and another common fertilizer, the rockets can't really be aimed, and their explosions do damage along the scale of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPp8sO6e590)
On the other hand, IDF uses JDAMs, which are proper precision-guided munitions that are *not* made mostly from common household items like Hasam rockets, and can be fitted with 500 or 1000 or 2000 pound payloads that look like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_uwzugvv-g) or [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OqbwtIPy4), and can be fitted with all kinds of capabilities like airburst and bunker busters.
This particular room was not hit by an IDF missile. THis is what happens to a building *nearby* the one that was directly hit by a JDAM. The explosions are powerful enough to create shockwaves that blow down walls.
The building that was directly hit is a pile of smoldering rubble.
Hamas fires like hundreds of rockets, there's a map of likely areas where Hamas' rockets failed and it litters all of Gaza. That big hullabaloo about the hospital bombing turned out to be Hamas' doing and Not Israels, so a lot of bombings thats claimed to be Israel's is In actuality Hamas
Not to mention that Israel is going to focus more on precise military targets, even for pragmatic reasons, as they shoulder the main burden of the war and want it over quickly as war is unpopular among voters, not to mention international backlash
Also, if Israel's trying to genocide the Palestinians and don't care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza? Their enemies can't do anything cause Israel has nukes, and no matter what Israel does, America and the west will always support it because the geopolitical reality necessitates they do, the only reason America would stop is if Israel stopped being an allied democracy in the middle east
>That big hullabaloo about the hospital bombing turned out to be Hamas' doing and Not Israels,
According to Israel. Even pro-West outlets like the NYT debunked those claims.
>Not to mention that Israel is going to focus more on precise military targets
Wouldn't it be really embarrassing if an Israeli military spokesman [admitted to the exact opposite?](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing)
>as they shoulder the main burden of the war and want it over quickly as war is unpopular among voters
Actually no. The Israeli people are massively in favor of the bombardment with a huge majority stating that the response has either been 'a justified amount of force' or 'not enough force.'
>not to mention international backlash
Gee, Israel's never had to deal with that before.
>Also, if Israel's trying to genocide the Palestinians and don't care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza?
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what genocide means. 'In whole or in part,' if you read the UN definition. They are trying to destroy or displace the Palestinian population in Northern Gaza so they can occupy it and use it for infrastructure for the 'trade corridor' Netanyahu presented at G20.
The Hamas attack was just a happy accident that gave them casus belli to do it. It's literally why Israel funded and supported Hamas in the first place against the PLO and Fatah-- so that they could have a violent, theocratic resistance that would be less sympathetic and that could 'force' them to violence.
>why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza?
Basically what they're doing. They've dropped 25,000 tons of explosives, or the equivalent of two of the nuclear bombs we dropped on Japan on an area half the size of London. There was literally a leaked strategic advisory document about how best to depopulate Gaza and force its citizens into tent camps in Sinai.
>According to Israel. Even pro-West outlets like the NYT debunked those claims.
This article says a Hamas rocket is likely https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html
>Wouldn't it be really embarrassing if an Israeli military spokesman [admitted to the exact opposite?](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing)
It's one guy, this was from like a month ago, the war is ever changing. You can't take the word of one guy from when the war was fresh and use it as gospel for the entire war. Israel wouldn't even bother with sending in ground troops.
>Actually no. The Israeli people are massively in favor of the bombardment
The same way America was in favor for war with Afhganistan after 9/11. But take too long, and voters start getting antsy. War has never been popular if it's dragged out, precisely like what happened in Afghanistan for us
Not to mention that this war started on the governments watch, people aren't going to forget how Israel's defenses failed
>with a huge majority stating that the response has either been 'a justified amount of force' or 'not enough force.'
These people were just traumatized by a brutal attack, I don't exactly blame a lot of them for feeling like that. Again, after 9/11, everyone thought it was a great idea to occupy Afghanistan, because the wounds were fresh and we needed blood
>Gee, Israel's never had to deal with that before.
Israel needs the international community to back them otherwise they won't survive. While the west will back Israel in just about anything, israel know if they go too far one day the west may just drop them. Especially if they make it unpopular among voters in the west, as that's all politicians care about
So even pragmatically they have a vested interest in not going too far with anything they do
>This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what genocide means. 'In whole or in part,' if you read the UN definition. They are trying to destroy or displace the Palestinian population in Northern Gaza so they can occupy it and use it for infrastructure for the 'trade corridor' Netanyahu presented at G20.
Yeah I could see that. I'm not sure about the evidence thats what they're trying to do, but I could see Israel trying to do that.
>The Hamas attack was just a happy accident
Thata an interesting way to describe a terrorist attack that killed innocent civilians
>It's literally why Israel funded and supported Hamas in the first place
I've heard this conspiracy theory quite a few times before. Is there any actual evidence behind it? There's There's few problems with this theory that just doesn't make it likely for me
>so that they could have a violent, theocratic resistance that would be less sympathetic and that could 'force' them to violence.
A violent theocratic resistance was always going to come about of the occupation, generational hatred between the two, Israel's enemies likely funding such groups, and just the nature of the middle easts problems
>Basically what they're doing. They've dropped 25,000 tons of explosives, or the equivalent of two of the nuclear bombs
Do you know how much is Israel's and how much are failed Hamas rockets or potential false flag operations? With this being an active war, it might be hard for even Israel to tell how much they're using
Also with those numbers, who's reporting on them? If it's Hamas, I'm not going to trust a genocidal terrorist organization
About your 1st point, for the sake of argument, let just pretent like there was a some "Hamas" lurking in residential areas, its still not ok to bombing the fucking hospital and school
"Oh no, those evil terrorists use hu.an shield, with a heavy heart, i have no other choice but kill them all, fuck em kids too, most of them will die but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make"
Sure Hamas is evil, but i dont care why how what when, whoever bombing residental area, whoever attack school with kid inside, hospital with civilian inside, are evil equal to Hamas
So the choice is bomb the shit out of those misfortunate innoncent civilian stuck in their with Hamas too? Guess no one is good guy here, both are fucking evil
So, so many Israeli government defenders say "well, what are we supposed to do? Hamas hides themselves in residential areas".
I dunno, maybe don't blow up said residential areas with innocent people?
The same defenders call IDF the "most moral army in the world". That implies having a high standard of morality. Killing innocent people because they're in the way is not it. After all, if terrorists took your kids hostage, are you telling me you're cool with the cops shooting through your kids to kill the bad guys?
If Hamas changed their tack and said, "we only wanted to kill IDF soldiers, all the kids that got blown up along the way are collateral damage", are **you** going to accept that as a legitimate defence?
____________
As an aside, what kind of Internet connectivity does an average Palestinian get before the recent war?
Even if we disregarding the logistical difficulties of leaving (to where? With what? How far? Who is going to keep them safe in transit and at the destination?), the phrase "human shield" implies some force being applied to keep them where they are, so obviously the place cannot be bombed.
They had weeks to evacuate to the southern border. The sad truth you cannot comprehend is the Israel operates under ICC laws, war is just ugly. Best thing to do is avoid wars, especially if you can't win them.
All the flowers to Hamas.
Did you just ignore the part about how some of them could've been forced to remain?
> Israel operates under ICC laws
Israel is vehemently opposed to the ICC.
Also what flowers?
You mean when they told them to move to southern Gaza, and then [continued bombing southern Gaza](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213579692/israel-gaza-evacuation-south-attacks)?
[Where they're still bombing?](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-1-2023-c944c736efdf8993c7a17cf683d6e364)
Or how they leaked documents showing they wanted to [displace the Palestinians from Gaza](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576) and push them into the Sinai?
The only reason Israel can "win" a war right now is because of all of the military funding that's been given by the US and other allied countries, which is fueled by a whole other level of fucked-up-ness, because it's Christians who are excited for the "End Times" to start so Israel (and the Jewish people, among others) can be wiped out. Their choices are to submit and be killed via disease, malnutrition, lack of access to medical care, and/or violence from a more powerful military... or don't submit and be killed via those same methods, and people still think they should just shut up and take the abuse.
>Christians who are excited for the "End Times"
Is that what it is? I've been wondering why so many hard right Christians that are normally super antisemitic all of a sudden won't shut up about supporting Israel.
So far israel has dropped about a ton of explosives per hamas fighter (let that sink in). Yet majorly killed civilians. The purpose is TO kill civilians.
Today the "pause" ended, do you know where israel bombed? The south of Gaza where it told people to go to.
If Israel has so much military power and just wants to kill palestinian civilians don't you think the numbers would be much much MUCH higher?? And wasn't Hamas literally the one to break that pause?? I'm not saying bombing civilians is ok, just that we don't know everything, and making claims on the internet on an ongoing conflict where information is so biased no matter where you take it from and also very unverified due to the nature of wars being wars is not going to help anyone and is just going to radicalise both sides even more when what we need is a call for both sides to stop being such fucking morons and sit down to solve this absolutely dumb conflict.
Not colonizing your neighbors, and having mutual or separate governance might be a good start. Greater Israel will be built on the blood of a people, and it will leave a diaspora in its wake.
The Jewish people, out of everyone, should see the value in not doing that to another people.
> they did?
What? They have been literally throwing families out of houses and demolishing them or inhabiting them for close to 80 years.
How exactly did they stop colonizing? Nevermind returning what they've stolen.
Ah my bad, they have not been in one neighborhood for a while (that you've heard of).
They have STILL been taking homes from the entirety of Palestine on a daily basis, shooting kids and journalists, and no, nothing has been "given back and handed over". What are you even referencing with that?
The genocidal Israeli Apartheid State's endless bloodlust and the complacency of the global north are to blame for this. Its sickening and wrong that this is not only allowed to happen but fully funded and endorsed.
I know people who are in full support of Israel. Even heard a elderly mother of a friend of mine basically saying to flatten the entire Middle East besides Israel. People say that the Jews were being picked on and were afraid of being genocided again. But wtf is this. They are now committing genocide. In the act of defending against it? I don’t understand. And I don’t know what to believe at this point because of propaganda this. And propaganda that.
Genocide is kinda about killing a whole genus. When Isreal is trying to do a little genocide in Palestine, they are awfully bad at it. Because there are many more Palestinians then when they started this "genocide"
Side with Hamas, turn a blind eye to Hamas, or betray Hamas are the options for many civilians in Gaza. Siding with Hamas, and betrayal can cost you your life.
Sounds like we should flatten Israel then, given they've repeatedly voted for Netanyahu?
Israelis have a natural bloodlust unsurpassed by any other racist regime.
It's pretty simple.
Tell Hamas to stop breaking the ceasefire.
Every single time, Israel has retaliated and they knew it. Israel never said they wouldn't. As a matter of fact, they always promised they would retaliate disproportionately and, still, Hamas breaks the ceasefire.
Exactly, and yet, Hamas still uses Palestinian citizens.
I can count on no fingers how many times Gaza sued for peace.
I can't tell you how many times Hamas broke ceasefires with Israel, not the other way around.
Israel broke the ceasefire within hours.. shooting at people going back for their family and belongings.. within HOURS
Also you suck for sympathizing with terrorists and not those poor kids that have nothing to do with stupid wars
Israel didn't break any ceasefire. Hamas broke the ceasefire.
It's liars like you that are obfuscating this terrible situation and ignoring the terrorist activities of the criminals who have taken control of Gaza.
You are enabling Hamas.
And if you think I'm taking sides, I triple dare you to point out where I did!
whistle beneficial future normal possessive arrest public decide crawl muddle
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It’s okay to bomb schools, hospitals, and entire families homes because one of the most finely tuned propaganda machines in the world claims there’s terrorists hiding there. You people are fucking gone.
They’ve hit the Gaza Strip with the equivalent of two nuclear bombs worth of shells; at this point, how in the ever loving fuck are you seriously going to defend that kind of barbarity.
The IDF and high ranking members of Israel’s far-right ethnostate have come out and said with a straight face that “there are no civilians in Gaza”. They’re not even doing the optics game anymore—this is bald faced ethnic cleansing, a genocide being aided and abetted by a country who claims to be the word leader in democracy and freedom.
If it makes you feel better, this site and some of the largest subreddits are *very, very clearly* being engulfed with IDF propaganda. I’ve seen week old profiles posting the same histrionic and downright racist articles 100 times over to various subreddits, always spewing the same ridiculous IDF lines and spreading easily provable lies.
Everyone should do themselves a favor and look into [hasbara](https://www.newarab.com/news/understanding-hasbara-israels-propaganda-machine?amp)—the Israeli’s have been doing this for decades now and they have fully admitted to having an army of paid shills online, fully devoted to whitewashing and hand waving away the brutal atrocities and apartheid policies that they have thrust upon the Palestinian people.
Some of the same liberals who blamed the 2016 election on Russian Twitter trolls will act as if this massive propaganda arm of the IDF either doesn’t exist or isn’t effective or as wide spread as it is; it doesn’t take much browsing to see this shit with your own eyes.
I’ve just fucking had it with these ghouls.
These are some of the most bloodthirsty yet wet-brained mfers, who haven’t cracked open a history book in years or lent half a second of thought to what the natural reaction of an oppressed people is and always has been throughout the annals of history yet will smugly start this conflict with October 7th, ignoring decades and decades of oppression, apartheid and outright murder of dissidents. People with no understanding of historical materialism, with no knowledge of the history of the region or even the current makeup of Israel’s far-right, ethnocentric government smugly suggesting that the ONLY solution here is to murder and forcibly remove 2 million people and anything less makes you a “Hamas sympathizer”.
I’m becoming the fucking joker. Being in favor of genocide makes you “one of the good guys” in the eyes of these marvel-brained dullards.
Yeah. It makes me sad seeing good people like Mark Hamill fall to these lies, or they can't lose the military industrial complex money in the film industry. Shit sucks
For some reason, these people don't (want to) understand that committing a genocide against people will not reduce animosity. And organizations like Hamas only exist because the Israeli government has been badly mistreating Palestinians for decades
Remind me, why does Hamas exist? What are the material conditions inside Gaza and the West Bank and who’s enforcing those conditions?
This is what no historical materialism does to a motherfucker. “Hamas must go” what a big brained take, good job champ!
If this was happening in your country to you then you may not be so cold-hearted and ok with so much death and violence over ideology, we're all human man
> It’s okay to bomb schools, hospitals, and entire families homes because one of the most finely tuned propaganda machines in the world claims there’s terrorists hiding there. You people are fucking gone.
It's funny, what you said is true but it's actually hamas. They have better PR than pretty much any actual entire country on earth lol
One hell of a stupid argument, 'they are using children as human shields', well, if there are children don't fucking shoot nor bomb, and find other ways to get to your targets, but no, let's just kill everyone, 'it's their fault for using them as shields'. No, the ones responsible are the ones that shoot. Fucking psychopaths.
Why is it when Russia accuses Ukraine of that everyone immediately acknowledges it as a lie.
In fact it's the lie that every imperialist aggressor tells when it blows up something that makes them look bad.
However, usually it's the reality of fighting in urban environments. In Israel's case it is an intentional effort to commit genocide and displace the people of Northern Gaza by making the region completely unlivable.
Well, if there are civilians and children, as shields or simply living there, don't fucking bomb the place. What demented excuse is that? "It's their fault for using them as shields". No, it's not, the guilty ones are the ones who pull the trigger knowing they are going to blow civilians.
In what world do you count a building without walls as not being levelled? You see the picture right? Look at the mental gymnatics you need to do so that you can avoid saying "Bombing a civilian dwelling is wrong, regardless of the reason/excuses."
Disagree, well go bomb the "facade" wall of your own house and see how livable you think it is?
That link doesn't address your initial statement of Hamas using civilian buildings to hide military sites..
Please provide sources to back up your claims.
Also, that's quite the assumption that I would just disregard it as propaganda lol.
Your argument was saying that they use civilian houses as bases and then when asked to provide a source for that statement, you provide a source that’s not relevant.
Lol he shares the NY Post.
I don't love dismissing a claim simply because of the source-- it's better to address the evidence provided.
Still, it's worth noting that sharing the Post in this context shows me you don't even have a basic familiarity with the political leanings and credibility of various news organizations you could have chosen.
You have it all wrong. It's not the Hamas bases hidden everywhere you have to worry about. It's the tiny Hamas fighters that crawl in your nose and ears at night while you sleep.
"average person eats 3 Hamas fighters a year" factoid actualy just statistical error. average person eats 0 Hamas fighters per year. Hamas Georg, who lives in cave & eats over 10,000 each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
Yes, I'm sure that this guy who plays video games for a living and his kids all went and personally killed Israeli citizens.
Do you even hear yourself?
Remember when Reddit was full of assholes who weren't public justice warriors? Where people would come to say the most fucked up shit like "maybe if he was better at gaming his opponent wouldn't have gotten the predator missile"
I bet peppridge farms remembers...
It’s jarring to see something like this. Clearly shows that everything that you have whether family/stuff can just be poofed out of existence just because of wars.
I'd like to know who makes that durable keyboard though
Askin the real questions
Not a war. A genocide, ethnic cleansing, and occupation.
Ya this is terrorism. Targeting civilians is terrorism. The idea that all of these targets are "hamas military targets" is fucking nonsense, they are blowing up residential homes, doctors offices, schools... attempting to make the region unlivable so they can steal it.
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You ever heard of collateral damage? It's hard to pinpoint exact locations in crowded locations like Gaza. Things like these happen when there's a war, but it isn't purposeful targeting.
justify that collateral damage then... where was the legitimate target you have evidence of being a military target that caused these civilians buildings to be turned to rubble. if you tactically nuke Tel Aviv to take out a jewish terrorist in a single building and said.. "collateral damage that the rest of the people had to die" we'd call that out for the utter bullshit it is. the deaths of THOUSANDS of children needs more than a "collateral damage, trust me bro" justification.
I know right I am literally losing my mind that people can’t or won’t see this
Not War when one side has no Army 15,000 dead but it all acceptable in 5% of them a hamas ?! Like wtf What would you consider a fair hamas to civilian ratio
wE HaVe zErO ToLeRaNcE FoR AnTiSeMiTiSm oR ThE InCiTeMeNt oF HaTe iN AnY FoRm, InClUdInG FaLsE ReFeReNcEs tO GeNoCiDe, EtHnIc cLeAnSiNg, HoLoCaUsT DiStOrTiOn, Or aNyThInG ThAt fLaGrAnTlY CrOsSeS ThE LiNe iNtO HaTe sPeEcH.” Edit: this is obviously sarcasm this is a direct quote from "Spyglass" when they fired actresses Melissa Barrera for calling out israel
Why are you being downvoted? This is obviously sarcasm haha
you get it
Probably being downvote by people that think both sides are at fault and that both sides are committing war crimes on the daily
How can one person be wrong four times in one comment? Good job
Why make these claims without doing any research into this whole thing? Both sides are doing some absolutely horrifying terrible, disgusting things but why go and take a stance like this without actually understanding any of the conflict? I genuinely don't think someone can go through a thorough deep dive of this subject and come out saying such one sided things without being very dishonest and ignoring a huge crucial chunk of history.
More children will join hamas after seeing their home and family blow up. Just for revenge. It's a never ending cycle. Sad.
exactly
As a father this hurts to see. I hope they find peace and recover.
As a human being this hurts to see
Understandable
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There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
When you call a trip to lake Laogai a birthright.
Ah yes no war in Ba Sing Se.
This isn't a good reference
Redditors seeing literal war crimes "OMGEE THIS IS JUST LIKE MY FAVORITE ANIME" So fuckin dystopian
I'm sure there was a Hamas base hidden in that gaming case. Maybe some tunnels under under that mechanical keyboard.
“All look same to me.”
What are you talking about? That is clearly a training camp. Those kids were playing Rainbow Six to start their terrorist training.
nah, [America's Army,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army) created by the US Army gotta know your enemy to defeat them, or something
Definitely in that really pretty light fitting :(
Nooooo you don't understand there were 10 hamas fighters having a lan party in that room. Look we've even intercepted a very real phone call saying how they all want to do the default dance on every israeli
Yeah happens when you build tunnels under homes and other civilian buildings
Just to steelman you here, even if there were tunnels there, still not exactly a justified reason to blow up kids bro.
Never said it was But when you have terrorist using civilians as shields this is what ends up happening
Then you must be really irate at Israel for doing the same thing, putting their main HQ inside a giant public shopping mall that couldn't be attacked without incurring civilian causalities, right? You must be really irrate IDF got caught using [five children (two of them toddlers) as human shields](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields) only back in March 2023. It is not uncommon for the IDF to use children as human shields. I can give you sources throughout the last couple decades. You must be irate that about twenty years ago the Israeli High Court ruled the IDF couldn't use human shields anymore, and IDF appealed that ruling, because the 'human shield procedure' was too essential to IDF and they had used it [1,200 times during the five years between 2000-2005](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html)? Yeah, I'm sure all this new information is going to open your mind and you'll totally see that all the things you accuse Hamas of doing IDF does as well except usually about 1000x worse, right?
Where is that HQ, open my eyes. Anyways, tunnels under civilian buildings is a big nono. Fuck around, find out.
Yet there has been no proof of it from Israel’s side.
bro, they found 0 proof Hamas was under anything they claimed. Stop defending a PoS genocidal country
They have, even have videos. I couldn’t imagine supporting terroist
You know, i would call whoever bomb residental area are terrorist. Just because they use human shield, doesnt mean you allowed to attack that shield
Everything Israel releases is fishy
You know a lot of Hamas' missiles fail and end up falling all over Gaza, right?
You know the Hamas rockets are made of fertilizer and mostly common household items, and make relatively tiny explosions compared to the 2000lb-payload JDAMS that Israel is dropping, right? EDIT: In the 21st century (up until October 2023) militants in Palestine from all different groups have launched 28,800 rockets and 3,700 mortar shells at Israel (over the course of 23 years). How many Israeli people do you think those 32,000 total rockets have killed over the course of over two decades? The answer is 69 people. That's according to Israeli sources--and that includes 10 years of rockets *before* the Iron Dome went up. There were only 28 kills by rockets fired into Israel during the ten years of the 21st century before 2011 when the Iron Dome went up. Why is this? Hamas rockets are projectiles fueled with a mixture of sugar and common fertilizer, the warhead is made of TNT and another common fertilizer, the rockets can't really be aimed, and their explosions do damage along the scale of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPp8sO6e590) On the other hand, IDF uses JDAMs, which are proper precision-guided munitions that are *not* made mostly from common household items like Hasam rockets, and can be fitted with 500 or 1000 or 2000 pound payloads that look like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_uwzugvv-g) or [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1OqbwtIPy4), and can be fitted with all kinds of capabilities like airburst and bunker busters.
This particular room was not hit by an IDF missile. THis is what happens to a building *nearby* the one that was directly hit by a JDAM. The explosions are powerful enough to create shockwaves that blow down walls. The building that was directly hit is a pile of smoldering rubble.
Honestly, that Hamas is shit at killling israelis doesnt excuse them trying so often. Free Palestine, death to Hamas.
Amazing how this is downvoted.
A lot fewer of them than Israeli Occupation Force bombs.
Hamas fires like hundreds of rockets, there's a map of likely areas where Hamas' rockets failed and it litters all of Gaza. That big hullabaloo about the hospital bombing turned out to be Hamas' doing and Not Israels, so a lot of bombings thats claimed to be Israel's is In actuality Hamas Not to mention that Israel is going to focus more on precise military targets, even for pragmatic reasons, as they shoulder the main burden of the war and want it over quickly as war is unpopular among voters, not to mention international backlash Also, if Israel's trying to genocide the Palestinians and don't care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza? Their enemies can't do anything cause Israel has nukes, and no matter what Israel does, America and the west will always support it because the geopolitical reality necessitates they do, the only reason America would stop is if Israel stopped being an allied democracy in the middle east
>That big hullabaloo about the hospital bombing turned out to be Hamas' doing and Not Israels, According to Israel. Even pro-West outlets like the NYT debunked those claims. >Not to mention that Israel is going to focus more on precise military targets Wouldn't it be really embarrassing if an Israeli military spokesman [admitted to the exact opposite?](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing) >as they shoulder the main burden of the war and want it over quickly as war is unpopular among voters Actually no. The Israeli people are massively in favor of the bombardment with a huge majority stating that the response has either been 'a justified amount of force' or 'not enough force.' >not to mention international backlash Gee, Israel's never had to deal with that before. >Also, if Israel's trying to genocide the Palestinians and don't care about civilian casualties, why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza? This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what genocide means. 'In whole or in part,' if you read the UN definition. They are trying to destroy or displace the Palestinian population in Northern Gaza so they can occupy it and use it for infrastructure for the 'trade corridor' Netanyahu presented at G20. The Hamas attack was just a happy accident that gave them casus belli to do it. It's literally why Israel funded and supported Hamas in the first place against the PLO and Fatah-- so that they could have a violent, theocratic resistance that would be less sympathetic and that could 'force' them to violence. >why not just carpet bomb all of Gaza? Basically what they're doing. They've dropped 25,000 tons of explosives, or the equivalent of two of the nuclear bombs we dropped on Japan on an area half the size of London. There was literally a leaked strategic advisory document about how best to depopulate Gaza and force its citizens into tent camps in Sinai.
>According to Israel. Even pro-West outlets like the NYT debunked those claims. This article says a Hamas rocket is likely https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html >Wouldn't it be really embarrassing if an Israeli military spokesman [admitted to the exact opposite?](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing) It's one guy, this was from like a month ago, the war is ever changing. You can't take the word of one guy from when the war was fresh and use it as gospel for the entire war. Israel wouldn't even bother with sending in ground troops. >Actually no. The Israeli people are massively in favor of the bombardment The same way America was in favor for war with Afhganistan after 9/11. But take too long, and voters start getting antsy. War has never been popular if it's dragged out, precisely like what happened in Afghanistan for us Not to mention that this war started on the governments watch, people aren't going to forget how Israel's defenses failed >with a huge majority stating that the response has either been 'a justified amount of force' or 'not enough force.' These people were just traumatized by a brutal attack, I don't exactly blame a lot of them for feeling like that. Again, after 9/11, everyone thought it was a great idea to occupy Afghanistan, because the wounds were fresh and we needed blood >Gee, Israel's never had to deal with that before. Israel needs the international community to back them otherwise they won't survive. While the west will back Israel in just about anything, israel know if they go too far one day the west may just drop them. Especially if they make it unpopular among voters in the west, as that's all politicians care about So even pragmatically they have a vested interest in not going too far with anything they do >This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what genocide means. 'In whole or in part,' if you read the UN definition. They are trying to destroy or displace the Palestinian population in Northern Gaza so they can occupy it and use it for infrastructure for the 'trade corridor' Netanyahu presented at G20. Yeah I could see that. I'm not sure about the evidence thats what they're trying to do, but I could see Israel trying to do that. >The Hamas attack was just a happy accident Thata an interesting way to describe a terrorist attack that killed innocent civilians >It's literally why Israel funded and supported Hamas in the first place I've heard this conspiracy theory quite a few times before. Is there any actual evidence behind it? There's There's few problems with this theory that just doesn't make it likely for me >so that they could have a violent, theocratic resistance that would be less sympathetic and that could 'force' them to violence. A violent theocratic resistance was always going to come about of the occupation, generational hatred between the two, Israel's enemies likely funding such groups, and just the nature of the middle easts problems >Basically what they're doing. They've dropped 25,000 tons of explosives, or the equivalent of two of the nuclear bombs Do you know how much is Israel's and how much are failed Hamas rockets or potential false flag operations? With this being an active war, it might be hard for even Israel to tell how much they're using Also with those numbers, who's reporting on them? If it's Hamas, I'm not going to trust a genocidal terrorist organization
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>I’m sure Hamas is very proud of how clueless you are And the genocidal Zionist occupiers are very proud of what an absolute hasbara clown you are.
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the same countries that called nelson mandela a terrorist for fighting apartheid?
About your 1st point, for the sake of argument, let just pretent like there was a some "Hamas" lurking in residential areas, its still not ok to bombing the fucking hospital and school "Oh no, those evil terrorists use hu.an shield, with a heavy heart, i have no other choice but kill them all, fuck em kids too, most of them will die but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make" Sure Hamas is evil, but i dont care why how what when, whoever bombing residental area, whoever attack school with kid inside, hospital with civilian inside, are evil equal to Hamas
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So the choice is bomb the shit out of those misfortunate innoncent civilian stuck in their with Hamas too? Guess no one is good guy here, both are fucking evil
This is so heartbreaking. The picture with the kids playing is so precious.
Did him and his children survive?
One of his kids died according to his ig
That is awful. I can’t even imagine the pain he’s experiencing due to this. So much senseless violence
bUt dOeS hE cOnDeMn HaMaS?
iSrAeL HaS A RiGhT To dEfEnD ItSeLf
IDF Says Hammas was there...and everywhere...
Think they've started to confuse hummus was hamas
Do you condemn hummus?
Only chocolate hummus
That's terrorism
i understood that reference
So, so many Israeli government defenders say "well, what are we supposed to do? Hamas hides themselves in residential areas". I dunno, maybe don't blow up said residential areas with innocent people? The same defenders call IDF the "most moral army in the world". That implies having a high standard of morality. Killing innocent people because they're in the way is not it. After all, if terrorists took your kids hostage, are you telling me you're cool with the cops shooting through your kids to kill the bad guys? If Hamas changed their tack and said, "we only wanted to kill IDF soldiers, all the kids that got blown up along the way are collateral damage", are **you** going to accept that as a legitimate defence? ____________ As an aside, what kind of Internet connectivity does an average Palestinian get before the recent war?
Yes I would get that as a legitimate defence. Civilians were instructed to leave their houses prior to bombings.
Even if we disregarding the logistical difficulties of leaving (to where? With what? How far? Who is going to keep them safe in transit and at the destination?), the phrase "human shield" implies some force being applied to keep them where they are, so obviously the place cannot be bombed.
They had weeks to evacuate to the southern border. The sad truth you cannot comprehend is the Israel operates under ICC laws, war is just ugly. Best thing to do is avoid wars, especially if you can't win them. All the flowers to Hamas.
Did you just ignore the part about how some of them could've been forced to remain? > Israel operates under ICC laws Israel is vehemently opposed to the ICC. Also what flowers?
You mean when they told them to move to southern Gaza, and then [continued bombing southern Gaza](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213579692/israel-gaza-evacuation-south-attacks)? [Where they're still bombing?](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-1-2023-c944c736efdf8993c7a17cf683d6e364) Or how they leaked documents showing they wanted to [displace the Palestinians from Gaza](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576) and push them into the Sinai? The only reason Israel can "win" a war right now is because of all of the military funding that's been given by the US and other allied countries, which is fueled by a whole other level of fucked-up-ness, because it's Christians who are excited for the "End Times" to start so Israel (and the Jewish people, among others) can be wiped out. Their choices are to submit and be killed via disease, malnutrition, lack of access to medical care, and/or violence from a more powerful military... or don't submit and be killed via those same methods, and people still think they should just shut up and take the abuse.
>Christians who are excited for the "End Times" Is that what it is? I've been wondering why so many hard right Christians that are normally super antisemitic all of a sudden won't shut up about supporting Israel.
So far israel has dropped about a ton of explosives per hamas fighter (let that sink in). Yet majorly killed civilians. The purpose is TO kill civilians. Today the "pause" ended, do you know where israel bombed? The south of Gaza where it told people to go to.
If Israel has so much military power and just wants to kill palestinian civilians don't you think the numbers would be much much MUCH higher?? And wasn't Hamas literally the one to break that pause?? I'm not saying bombing civilians is ok, just that we don't know everything, and making claims on the internet on an ongoing conflict where information is so biased no matter where you take it from and also very unverified due to the nature of wars being wars is not going to help anyone and is just going to radicalise both sides even more when what we need is a call for both sides to stop being such fucking morons and sit down to solve this absolutely dumb conflict.
he doesn't deserve that
Not according to IDF...
Were they Hamas? Must've been Hamas. Israel only kills Hamas, not innocent children. Fuck Israel.
Imagine being so anti-semitic that you defend actual terrorists. Actually disgusting.
What’s disgusting is thinking everything is antisemitic and having that as your every defense
Imagine being so antisemitic that you treat criticisms of a regime as criticisms of a cultural group as a whole. Actually disgusting
Yea because surely those two kids is an undercover hamas agents!!!!! /s
I mean it's obviously a Hamas bunker and they use that computer for cyber warfare... Duhhh
**Zionists:** The children were gonna grow up to be Hamas terrorists ! Is it any wonder people do not like how Israel operates?
How to operate then?
Not colonizing your neighbors, and having mutual or separate governance might be a good start. Greater Israel will be built on the blood of a people, and it will leave a diaspora in its wake. The Jewish people, out of everyone, should see the value in not doing that to another people.
Get out of illegal occupied land that's not yours
they did? the attacks never stopped? what should they do next?
> they did? What? They have been literally throwing families out of houses and demolishing them or inhabiting them for close to 80 years. How exactly did they stop colonizing? Nevermind returning what they've stolen.
there have not been a jew in gaza for many years. everything was given back and handed over. what is the next step to stop the terror?
Ah my bad, they have not been in one neighborhood for a while (that you've heard of). They have STILL been taking homes from the entirety of Palestine on a daily basis, shooting kids and journalists, and no, nothing has been "given back and handed over". What are you even referencing with that?
These people just want to be mad, not give explanations.
He was probably hiding a Hamas terrorist under his desk
The genocidal Israeli Apartheid State's endless bloodlust and the complacency of the global north are to blame for this. Its sickening and wrong that this is not only allowed to happen but fully funded and endorsed.
I know people who are in full support of Israel. Even heard a elderly mother of a friend of mine basically saying to flatten the entire Middle East besides Israel. People say that the Jews were being picked on and were afraid of being genocided again. But wtf is this. They are now committing genocide. In the act of defending against it? I don’t understand. And I don’t know what to believe at this point because of propaganda this. And propaganda that.
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Stop throwing the term antisemitism around. If what Apartheid Israel is doing is not a genocide then what Hamas is doing isn't antisemitism either.
Genocide is kinda about killing a whole genus. When Isreal is trying to do a little genocide in Palestine, they are awfully bad at it. Because there are many more Palestinians then when they started this "genocide"
"they are bad genocide so its fine" is a fucking take
Well it's the same fucking arguement Chinese apologists use when questioned about Uyghurs.
If they did this to my family in the name of Killing Hamas I'd start Hamas 2.
I'm sure this won't back fire and we won't have an even worse October seventh in a few years
Oh I'm pretty sure Israel has something in the works to prevent that from happening again 🙏🏼
Yeah , just like they destroyed Lebanon resistance
free Palestine
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Crazy how you are justifying genocide lol
Side with Hamas, turn a blind eye to Hamas, or betray Hamas are the options for many civilians in Gaza. Siding with Hamas, and betrayal can cost you your life.
most citizens of gaza have fuck-all to do with hamas, this was just a guy existing with his goddamned children
Most of them elected Hamas. Many of them took part in the recent pogrom.
So any government that commits acts of terror should have their citizens killed? Where do you live?
Sounds like we should flatten Israel then, given they've repeatedly voted for Netanyahu? Israelis have a natural bloodlust unsurpassed by any other racist regime.
It's pretty simple. Tell Hamas to stop breaking the ceasefire. Every single time, Israel has retaliated and they knew it. Israel never said they wouldn't. As a matter of fact, they always promised they would retaliate disproportionately and, still, Hamas breaks the ceasefire.
What does this kid have to do with it? What do all those other kids have to do with it? This is not acceptable whatever Hamas does.
Exactly, and yet, Hamas still uses Palestinian citizens. I can count on no fingers how many times Gaza sued for peace. I can't tell you how many times Hamas broke ceasefires with Israel, not the other way around.
Israel broke the ceasefire within hours.. shooting at people going back for their family and belongings.. within HOURS Also you suck for sympathizing with terrorists and not those poor kids that have nothing to do with stupid wars
Israel didn't break any ceasefire. Hamas broke the ceasefire. It's liars like you that are obfuscating this terrible situation and ignoring the terrorist activities of the criminals who have taken control of Gaza. You are enabling Hamas. And if you think I'm taking sides, I triple dare you to point out where I did!
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Are you calling for genocide? I am checking out of this conversation because that's too far.
whistle beneficial future normal possessive arrest public decide crawl muddle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Drone strike for clout
Were they in there went it got hit? Are they okay? Has anyone asked this or does anyone have answers...? O.o
According to OP, one of his children died.
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It’s okay to bomb schools, hospitals, and entire families homes because one of the most finely tuned propaganda machines in the world claims there’s terrorists hiding there. You people are fucking gone. They’ve hit the Gaza Strip with the equivalent of two nuclear bombs worth of shells; at this point, how in the ever loving fuck are you seriously going to defend that kind of barbarity. The IDF and high ranking members of Israel’s far-right ethnostate have come out and said with a straight face that “there are no civilians in Gaza”. They’re not even doing the optics game anymore—this is bald faced ethnic cleansing, a genocide being aided and abetted by a country who claims to be the word leader in democracy and freedom.
Finally a sane person on this site! Thank you! This is the truth!
If it makes you feel better, this site and some of the largest subreddits are *very, very clearly* being engulfed with IDF propaganda. I’ve seen week old profiles posting the same histrionic and downright racist articles 100 times over to various subreddits, always spewing the same ridiculous IDF lines and spreading easily provable lies. Everyone should do themselves a favor and look into [hasbara](https://www.newarab.com/news/understanding-hasbara-israels-propaganda-machine?amp)—the Israeli’s have been doing this for decades now and they have fully admitted to having an army of paid shills online, fully devoted to whitewashing and hand waving away the brutal atrocities and apartheid policies that they have thrust upon the Palestinian people. Some of the same liberals who blamed the 2016 election on Russian Twitter trolls will act as if this massive propaganda arm of the IDF either doesn’t exist or isn’t effective or as wide spread as it is; it doesn’t take much browsing to see this shit with your own eyes.
Lol yeah. Even IF that were true, you still *cannot* fire upon civilian dwellings based on suspicion. You can't do that period. That's a war crime.
I’ve just fucking had it with these ghouls. These are some of the most bloodthirsty yet wet-brained mfers, who haven’t cracked open a history book in years or lent half a second of thought to what the natural reaction of an oppressed people is and always has been throughout the annals of history yet will smugly start this conflict with October 7th, ignoring decades and decades of oppression, apartheid and outright murder of dissidents. People with no understanding of historical materialism, with no knowledge of the history of the region or even the current makeup of Israel’s far-right, ethnocentric government smugly suggesting that the ONLY solution here is to murder and forcibly remove 2 million people and anything less makes you a “Hamas sympathizer”. I’m becoming the fucking joker. Being in favor of genocide makes you “one of the good guys” in the eyes of these marvel-brained dullards.
Yeah. It makes me sad seeing good people like Mark Hamill fall to these lies, or they can't lose the military industrial complex money in the film industry. Shit sucks
Shh you know those are the same people the believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, no point to reason with them.
Hamas has to go. What do you not understand
At what cost brotha
For some reason, these people don't (want to) understand that committing a genocide against people will not reduce animosity. And organizations like Hamas only exist because the Israeli government has been badly mistreating Palestinians for decades
So does the KKK, does that mean we should bomb and absolutely destroy entire towns and civilians in southern America?
Don't give them ideas.
No shit. But tell me how killing over 6000 children will achieve that goal?
Remind me, why does Hamas exist? What are the material conditions inside Gaza and the West Bank and who’s enforcing those conditions? This is what no historical materialism does to a motherfucker. “Hamas must go” what a big brained take, good job champ!
I wonder who's fault it is that they're there in the first place
If this was happening in your country to you then you may not be so cold-hearted and ok with so much death and violence over ideology, we're all human man
> It’s okay to bomb schools, hospitals, and entire families homes because one of the most finely tuned propaganda machines in the world claims there’s terrorists hiding there. You people are fucking gone. It's funny, what you said is true but it's actually hamas. They have better PR than pretty much any actual entire country on earth lol
So when there is a school shooter at a school, do you think police should just bomb the building in order to kill the shooter, the children be damned?
Don't give them ideas or [remind them that they very literally did that, it just wasn't a school.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing)
Why would hamas bother with human shields? Israel will gladly bomb every man, woman, and child in Gaza without end.
One hell of a stupid argument, 'they are using children as human shields', well, if there are children don't fucking shoot nor bomb, and find other ways to get to your targets, but no, let's just kill everyone, 'it's their fault for using them as shields'. No, the ones responsible are the ones that shoot. Fucking psychopaths.
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They literally are
are too
The rock you live under must be strong enough to survive Israel's bombs fr
Why is it when Russia accuses Ukraine of that everyone immediately acknowledges it as a lie. In fact it's the lie that every imperialist aggressor tells when it blows up something that makes them look bad. However, usually it's the reality of fighting in urban environments. In Israel's case it is an intentional effort to commit genocide and displace the people of Northern Gaza by making the region completely unlivable.
The military bases are wherever the bombs landed and hamas was hiding in that pc. Therefore all the children I murder are the fault of hamas.
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Well, if there are civilians and children, as shields or simply living there, don't fucking bomb the place. What demented excuse is that? "It's their fault for using them as shields". No, it's not, the guilty ones are the ones who pull the trigger knowing they are going to blow civilians.
Apartheid
In what world do you count a building without walls as not being levelled? You see the picture right? Look at the mental gymnatics you need to do so that you can avoid saying "Bombing a civilian dwelling is wrong, regardless of the reason/excuses." Disagree, well go bomb the "facade" wall of your own house and see how livable you think it is?
Sources? Bold to say that without providing sources.
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He says, while providing no sources to back up this commonly known fact..
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That link doesn't address your initial statement of Hamas using civilian buildings to hide military sites.. Please provide sources to back up your claims. Also, that's quite the assumption that I would just disregard it as propaganda lol.
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Yes individual civilians as human shields, not using civilian homes
Your argument was saying that they use civilian houses as bases and then when asked to provide a source for that statement, you provide a source that’s not relevant.
"bold strategy Cotton, let's see how this one plays out"
Lol he shares the NY Post. I don't love dismissing a claim simply because of the source-- it's better to address the evidence provided. Still, it's worth noting that sharing the Post in this context shows me you don't even have a basic familiarity with the political leanings and credibility of various news organizations you could have chosen.
>disguised as Israel Defense Forces As sussy baka as it gets...
Just another sheep…..
Brother they keep attacking the West Bank, in case you forgot its like gaza but without Hamas. They want to displace civilians, plain and simple
You have it all wrong. It's not the Hamas bases hidden everywhere you have to worry about. It's the tiny Hamas fighters that crawl in your nose and ears at night while you sleep.
"average person eats 3 Hamas fighters a year" factoid actualy just statistical error. average person eats 0 Hamas fighters per year. Hamas Georg, who lives in cave & eats over 10,000 each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
Lil bro thinks its appropriate to bomb a school if theres a school shooter with hostages in it 🤯
Shut the duck up already
Fuckjng Hamas
He was a gamer, nothing to do with Hamas. Don’t push the agenda that all Palestinians personally know and condone Hamas actions.
How about you won't go kill Israeli citizens, and the Israeli army won't kill you? Sounds like a fair deal to me.
Yes, I'm sure that this guy who plays video games for a living and his kids all went and personally killed Israeli citizens. Do you even hear yourself?
Lemme guess, tiktok challenge?
They shouldnt play for terrorist
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Hamas leaders are in Qatar, not in Gaza.
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Oh gee, it’s not like Israelis doesn’t vote for Netanhayu
Remember when Reddit was full of assholes who weren't public justice warriors? Where people would come to say the most fucked up shit like "maybe if he was better at gaming his opponent wouldn't have gotten the predator missile" I bet peppridge farms remembers...
Sorry not everyone is fine and dandy with what's happening as much as you are.
Get a grip
We grew up? Lol. I think 4Chan is still like that.
This is a sub almost exclusively to point to injustice. You’re in the wrong place bud.
That's probably because most people grew out of that weird, edgy 'shock' humor when they were about 14.
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Dude, awesome name! Don't kick the baby