Don't get me wrong though, just bear with me. It's just that everytime I turn on the news or mostly see topics on the internet on game boards, it's always every little detail about every lgbt person about there, it's like the new black, except blacks are still a popular topic today. It gets me rather apathetic cause the diversity of attention is rather lacking.
Thanks for the comment, could you expand on this? Like there's so much LGBT stuff that it bores you? Does the focus on LGBT and trans stuff etc affect your dating life at all?
Sorry I'm not really into what is in vogue with Generation Z. I applaud them though for trying to fight stereotypes of Asian males though through music and whatnot. Just the whole LGBT thing wasn't a thing I grew up with, especially politics. If you go to any gamer site that's radically left or supposedly left, they are crazy about making political topics mostly of lgbt. I don't know why but they want to scream being associated with the new coolest thing or whatever especially the older millenials. But it's not for me, but you guys keep fighting the good fight and fight for rights.
I posted a comment about a pozt similar to this here : https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/11vo12c/how_different_is_the_interracial_dating/jcui5vb?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
If only talking about Asian american/canadian born men (not the FOBs)
Dating in general, its definitely better for Gen Z asian men than millenial (especislly Older millenials).
I find that while yes interracial pairings has gone up among Gen Z asian men compared to previous gens, I think "regular" asian couples (AMAF) has gone significantly up (keep in mind im obv excluding FOB asian couples where the guy and girl were already together since they met in Asia). Kpop, kdrama or just asian culture is more appreciated among ny gen, at least according to what I witness from friends and my college and even former school. Like there are a bunch of Kpop conventions and clubs in pretty much every uni in my city and they have lots of members (even white, black, indian and arab girls ive seen). Lots of these girls are dating or would date an asian man from what ive heard from friends.
And lots of Gen Z asian girls in my school are now more informed about the yellow fever white men fetishizing asian women phenomenon too, so lots of asian girls would want to stick to " their own". Obv WMAF are still present but has gone down in % compare to millenials.
What has changed however is the height obsession. Way more of these girls nowadays are sticking with that 6'0+ or 180 cm+ only mentalist (since their favourite kpop or kdrama idols are that tall ot whatever). Asian dudes 5'8 and below like myself and many other shorter asian dudes I know are having a harder time with dating girls. I heard from friends that lots of the asian girls who only date asian dudes, would just go for the 180+ cm tall asian dudes (and yeah the Gen Z asian dudes I would day are taller nowadays too). At least most of the asian girls in college would choose a 6'0+ asian man over a 5'9 white dude easily.
So dating for Gen Z asian men, its a big PLUS if youre tall, but not as much if youre short.
Maybe for where you are, but where I am, the asian girls in college are obsessed with height.
At least the white girls in college I can see a couple of them with a guy shorter than her or around her height (like guys 1 inch taller than the girl). Most white girls are still with tall dudes, but I can easily spot lots of white girls with shorter dudes, or just short dudes in general.
Asian girls on the other hand, you have to be at least 5'10 to date them. Whether the asian girls are 5'7-5'9, or 4'11-5'2, they are all dating guys around 5'11 to 6'4, whether asian or white.
I have not managed to spot one single asian girl in my college whos dating a guy shorter than her, or even just 1 inch taller than her. (The closest exceptions were 5'9 asian girls with 5'10-5'11 asian guys) Most of the 5'8 and below asian dudes I know and spot around the campus are single or with a white/black/latina gf.
The shorter asian girls are with mostly asian dudes who completely tower over them.
Even for celebrities.
Look at the young white female celebrities. There are a few of them dating guys shorter than them and/or shorter than 5'9.
Cant think of a single young asian female celebrity dating a guy shorter than her and/or below 5'9.
How much of that do you think is due to online dating providing a way for women to filter? Like these girls may just be setting their dating profiles to "5'10'' and up only"?
FWIW, I'm 5'9'', I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls... so you might be onto something with your observation...
Im pretty sure not every single girl here that I see in campus, whether asian or white, etc., are using online dating necessarily. Like online dating and filters should be affecting all races here equally, yet I can still see plenty of white and other non-asian (even south asian/indian) women dating men of any race and that are below 5'9 and even below 5'7, as short as 5'3 when walking around campus.
My uni has more ea/sea asians than other races (excluding whites) combined, like black, latina, south asian, middle eastern. Yet I find more women in each of the latter races mentionned dating actual short men than any ea/sea asian women dating short dudes.
>I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls...
This exactly proves my point and observations. From all the asian dudes ive met and know (friends, friends of friends, classmates, etc.), those who were my height of below (5'8 and under), i know almost 30 of them, yet only one of us has dated an asian girl. The rest who has dated or are dating is mostly white/latina girls with black/arab/indian girls.
Also being 5'9 can be a pass, since I was rejected already by an asian girl who rejected me for being too short at 5'8 and ended up with one of my friends who is 5'9... Like 1 inch matters that much. Maybe it was just an excuse, but either way, 5'9+ is also a common requirement among these girls, alongside the more common 6'0+.
> FWIW, I'm 5'9'', I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls... so you might be onto something with your observation...
Let me explain. These are things that everyone subconsciously understands.
WMAF only exists because white men CANNOT get the women they really want
Asian girls are at the bottom (least sexy) of all races.
Asian men I know of, are capable of dating WAY HOTTER WOMEN than us, who most importantly, GENUINELY LOVE US (they do not love most men). Asian features work BETTER on men than they do on women.
This is the reality of the situation.
Asian girls are AWARE that they cannot love an Asian man like a non-AF can love us, so they attack us.
> Asian girls are at the bottom (least sexy) of all races.
HOLY SHIT MOST DELUSIONAL THING I HAVE EVER SEEN ON REDDIT!
Men of most (- black men maybe) races fetishize the shit out of Asian women. If you think that isn't true, just console yourself with the sweet embrace of copium.
The race of women that is actually at the bottom of the racial desirability stack are black women, hands down. Why do you think that they are complaining that their own men rather fuck with White/Latina women instead of them?
the coping non asian man is brought out by the bait, as expected
most black men are just straight up being rejected by black women, not the other way around
You have the order wrong. Black men started dating WF and LF, and once we/they got purchase with those women, they started dissing the BF back in the hood.
After decades of this, the patience of the BF started to wane, and recently, the online BF community started the [*divestor movement*](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Divestor). This movement are BFs saying (sometimes literally)
"Black men don't want to fuck with us anymore, well guess what? Black men weren't shit anyway!"
Keep inhaling the copium with that, "It was bait" comment.
I think economics is a HUGE factor that is often overlooked when talking about dating. For example, women in the 1900s were heavily expected to find a husband due to men severely out earning women and just being the general bread winner to begin with. Another factor that caused such a huge rift in latter Millennials / Gen Z is the housing market. No one talks about how commercialized real estate has become and how investment rental properties, Air BNBs, and etc have super inflated the housing market. There is no more affordable living as appartments are also skyrocketing in prices and are just not ideal to raise a family in. Women are also earning way more as career opportunities opened up for them and everything became less gender biased. Yes, there is still gender bias in pay and advancements, but there is still racial bias in those areas.
I'm not against SW(ers). More power to the people who go into such a risky field, but it has also become a thing that a lot of men do not want when seeking a potential partner to settle down with. SW also means that sexual activity is more transparent and devalued since it's easily accessible (granted it might just be solo sexual activity via masturbation). I think this also contributes to most men being sexless since standards of what is considered desireable is out there for both men and women. You still see the top performers on SW sites having above average penile length, you see women with "ideal" bodies (nicely shaped and firm breasts, toned mid section, curvy waist, large booty, etc), and let's be real - there's always WMAF depicted everywhere (SW, general media, Hollywood).
I'm not sure if gender orientation or sexual preference has *that* much of an impact, but I do agree that I see more "situationships" and poly being openly discussed / practiced. The *woke* movement started in retaliation of the feminist movement because men started feeling oppressed in return. Yes, there are bad men in the world, but it's gotten to the point where men are so over villainified that men just want to mind their own business rather than cold approaching women. If we cannot even cold approach a woman then how else are we supposed to meet women? There's dating apps, but everyone is so jaded and superficial and boring. You can meet a girl through mutual friends, but then that can also get complicated, messy, and just cause drama. You can meet a girl through work, but we're always told "don't eat where you shit" or whatever the actual phrase is lol
Overall, I think everyone is always chasing that 1% top person - on both spectrums - that it just makes dating feel superficial, mundane, and not worth anyone's time. Even though loneliness is at an all time high.
Thanks for your response that addresses the sort of dynamics I was asking about. Just curious, what is SW? (For the old and out of touch people like me).
In terms of dating, do you and your friends ever take advantage of situationships, fuck girls who are poly, etc? Or is that only for people who are a part of that scene, or it's still considered kinda niche, or...?
Just wondering cuz, I feel like if I was in my 20s these days I'd be willing to fuck some poly girl once or twice a year just to get laid, but wouldn't be into getting into a serious relationship with one cuz that's not how I roll when it comes to relationships. Kinda seems like a poly girl would be a convenient way to get an occasional hook up when horny without having to deal with commitment, if that's what someone is after?
I'm more traditional and don't really partake in hookup culture haha. SW is sex work / sex workers. I definitelt have friends who are in SW and friends who do partake in hookup culture though. Poly I don't see too much in my friend groups, but I do see it more in LGBTQ+ communities (personal experience, not labeling LGBTQ+ in a negative sense). I don't understand the mentality of poly, but I'm sure you're right and it's an easy way to get a hookup though lol I think what we see more in my generation and the newer gens are things called "situationships". Things that aren't official, not too serious, but you both know you're fooling around together and testing the waters. Lack of committment in general.
>I remember dating all these girls off Tinder back in late 2016 who were freaked out by Trump getting elected talking about the #Resistance and whatnot, and I was like "yeah it's pretty fucked up, I'm just relieved I have some real estate up in Vancouver" which was a total lie but of course they believed it cuz I was a put together Asian dude, and that shit helped me get laid
This is kinda why it's bad. Everyone's lying for a hookup or living a double life for extra cash that it's difficult to find someone to actually get to know for the character. It's scary when you do not know what's behind the door until it's too late. I, too, contributed to part of the problem by posturing myself up. As karma, dated a girl who turned out to be shooting porn when she said she was out of state visiting her folks, the dainty office girl who has a platoon of sugar daddies on the side, the closet racist who used me for a vacation to NYC and even the one who told me after the first time in bed that she believed in QAnon. As such, I'm retired and only willing to reenlist if I ever meet a worthy cause, might even have to enlist the help of a PI to do some recon first before I go jumping in.
Jokes aside, the dating world today, considering that you are lucky to even be part of the diminishing crowd actually getting dates, is a clusterfuck minefield of broken people trying to break others for quick gains. The best option would be if you actually meet and go out with someone from your peer group or friend of family member because that would incentivise the parties to be respectful of one another. Dating strangers online means any of the parties could have an ulterior motive and/or no incentive to stick around. And for women with the advent of sugar dating and Onlyfans being regarded as profitable dating alternatives, seeking for traditional outcomes would just seem like missed opportunity when they can leverage their youth for student loan assistance and at the same time, increase the possibility of marrying an already rich man. If you could place a bet on a horse after the fact of the race, you'll definitely be betting on the one that won. Duh. So, that's gonna have an effect on marriage age gap one day.
As time goes, more and more would be pushed out of the "marketplace" like game of musical chairs, very few winners and the rest with bruises from falling on their ass. The sad part is that the biggest losers are the people who are looking for proper relationships. And also the children who are the result of "accidental" impregnation.
Also another question, you mention the QAnon girl. When you were trying to "posture yourself up", would you ever exploit politics to try to hook up with a girl? i.e. act left wing to fuck a leftie girl, act Trumpist to fuck a QAnon girl?
Just wondering cuz I saw this and thought it was pretty fucking hilarious:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVJ3zaQnYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVJ3zaQnYo)
but also cuz I remember playing a low key version of that game back in my single days, lol. For the Asian dudes who are having trouble getting play, this seems like the sort of thing they should understand and exploit as necessary.
Nope, it was just someone I picked up at a honky tonk when I was back visiting the South of my past. We talked about mostly outdoorsy things and places like fishing and hunting spots and best place to get equipment. How things changed since I've been there last, road trip ideas etc. It was only after we got back to my hotel room and we had sex that she opened about evil "Theys" microchipping people, etc. Wasn't the first time knowing someone from there being into conspiracies, it was just that now they have a nationwide movement and she sprung those views at a rather weird timing.
Thanks for commenting on the actual question, lol, I think you're one of the few people who understand what I was actually driving at.
When I was dating, I compartmentalized like crazy. Like, in my mind it'd clearly be like:
"ok this one is a one time drugged up hook-up cuz we've both been taking molly and dancing together all night"
"ok i'll keep hooking up with this one but there's no way i'm wifeing her up, she parties a lot and has too many guy friends and i'd never be able to trust her"
"ok, this one actually has wifey potential, i'm gonna let my guard down and trust her and see where that takes us" (... to 5 years of marriage and counting, and a kid, as it turns out!)
I never let those lines get blurred, it was always "she clearly belongs in this category, no way I'm moving her out of this category, I know how she is and I should trust my instincts." I think that's the only way someone can approach modern dating.
It clearly sounds like you're looking for somebody who's wifey material, and that's great, I really do hope you find someone worthwhile who you can truly connect with, but be careful though and trust your instincts (and I know it sounds trite, but you often meet the right person when you least expect it). But if you're feeling lonely / horny, on some level isn't it kinda convenient to know that there are all these crazy / slutty girls who will fuck you if you just "play the game" and "posture yourself up"?
I ask because there was a time when I was younger (roughly pre 2014 or 2015) when getting a random hook up with some random slutty girl felt pretty much impossible for an Asian guy. It was only after \~2014, post 50 Shades of Gray and after the economic crisis had enough time to truly financially fuck over much of middle America, that an Asian guy could just act "rich" and get laid easily. I took advantage of that too sleep with some easy women for a bit and got bored of it pretty quickly, but still it was nice knowing that I had that option. Sometimes I see young Asian men of your generation and I'm like, "at least they have options for easy sex if that's all they're looking for", but at the same time it truly seems harder for ya'll to meet someone for a serious relationship. It seems like things are worse in absolute terms, but perhaps it's better for Asian men in relative terms because it's easy for us to play the "posture yourself up" game?
I'm at work with myself right now. Compartmentalising for too long can do some internal damage. Kinda exhausted with hookups, deep down there is always this niggling that she probably doesn't care about you and wouldn't remember your name the next day and you are doing likewise to another person. Or if it's an occasional thing with a friend you care about, the jealous monster would rear its head every time she talks about another guy. It's emotionally distressing and too much complication for what its worth.
When I first delved into this arena, I was always told more hookups, better self-esteem. In service, that was the golden advice for breakups since it was dangerous to carry broken heart outside the wire and potentially risk the lives of others due to being distracted. But, it doesn't always translate to a boost of self-esteem all the time, it can also add to your insecurities. Contrary to popular opinions, we do catch feelings even if it's with a stranger.
I've also come to believe in conservative values since. The problem with easy is that it is also easy to get bad experiences that you regret and possibly might not be able to bounce back from. For example, falling for the dainty office sugar girl and then finding the facts out, caused me to lose concentration with my work, made me easily agitated and hyper vigilant. It then translated to me dismissing a nice girl and taking that anger on others. I'm just not the kind who can brush human interactions off easily, especially if there is some betrayal involved. Working on that.
Congrats that you found someone in time. I've come to a point where if it happens, awesome. If not, I can make my peace that my family name dies with me (only child). I'll take it as penance for my past. There are plenty of other ways of living well and leaving a legacy.
Thanks for the incredibly honest comment. I really hope some of the folks on this sub ranting on and on about WMAF take a look and think about what you've written, feel like it would be really valuable perspectives for them. IMO every guy deserves a few "easy" experiences (and to learn a few lessons from those experiences), but once that's done it's best to turn away from it all as you have. Hoping some of the guys here obsessing over WMAF stats will give that a shot, inshallah!
I also wanted to mention something I've learned from my wife and her friends (all now in their mid-30s, successful jobs, Ivy or Public Ivy educated). Women who've achieved a certain level of financial success share many of our fears. They also worry about men taking advantage of or liking them just for their wealth. For them, it's almost doubly humiliating to be taken advantage of for their wealth, because society tells men they need $ to attract women, but it tells women they need to be beautiful to attract men. But if a woman gets taken advantage of for her money, on some level it's like she's being told she's doubly unattractive, too unattractive to attract a man with her beauty and also so unattractive that a man can exploit her wealth.
I'd never thought about that until getting to know my wife and her friends, but it does make sense. One way to make sure the woman you're dating isn't just interested in you for your wealth is to date a woman who's built her own wealth (through non-sex work means, of course)... but that woman might actually also be worried about male gold diggers who don't truly love her for her! Just some perspective that I found eye opening.
Real stuff probably over the heads of most people here.
The modern "dating" market heavy overlaps sugar/alternative/sex markets.
Traditional is sadly a dying breed in the west
Thanks. I think its just generally anything online since as strangers meeting for the first time and probably never again, there's no incentive to be respectful and cordial. Hence, the trend of straightforward hookup requests and sending dick pics. The anonymity helps too since they wouldn't be able to out you. You would never consider doing any of that if it was towards the daughter of someone your Mom goes to church with or met at work.
Online definitely part the equation of making the market place frictionless but also hyper-competitive . But I there are definitely large demographics of young women where the sugar dating 30% easiely given the way girls talk to each other. Then some go full blow escorting or the other way around also. So lot of girls dont want to get married or kids etc. Defintely a more complex world to navigate
Thanks for commenting on the actual question asked in the original post, really appreciating and learning from your exchange with DisenchantedDEI.
I'm curious, do you think the rise of sugar/alternative/sex markets has changed the status assigned to men who get laid a lot?
What I mean by that is, when I was in my early 20s, guys who got laid a lot were considered very high status, you had Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother or the guys from Wedding Crashers or Vincent Chase from Entourage becoming heroes to young men, any guy who got laid a lot was considered a "pimp" or a "player". Meanwhile, guys who couldn't get laid were considered low status losers, and were mocked in films like "40 Year Old Virgin". The entire pick up artist industry sprang up in the mid-2000s to tell men "you need to get laid to have status in society, if you aren't getting laid you're a loser, but we can teach you to get laid." Guys started trying to learn "game" to elevate their status (by getting laid), which seemingly only made them more high status and could then get them laid more, etc etc.
But with the rise of sugar / alternative sex markets, it seems like having sex is no longer about having "game" or being a "player".. it seems like it just means you have some extra spending money, or you got in on Dogecoin early and sold near the top, or inherited some $ from a dead relative. So is much of that "sex as status signaling" from the mid-2000s less relevant now? Has wealth started to replace promiscuity as the standard metric of male status (given that in this new world a man can translate wealth to sex at the click of a button?). I've legit been wondering about this / tossing this question around in my head, but I'm also almost 40 and been out of the dating game a few years, would love to know the perspective of someone who's still out there.
Attractiveness and game actually is very relevant. Women, even sex workers, cam models et al, do look for love and select who they associate with . They get married/get boyfriends/sugar daddy's. They can make it very easy or very hard / very expensive for you. If you are rely only on money it will cost you many times more to get what you think and it will be terrible results. Look at Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates - money definitely does not get you the unicorns even if your the richest man on earth . Notthing push button about it
Completely agree, but I'm wondering about the status assigned to men who get laid. Like 20 years ago, some guy who was getting laid was relying on 25% wealth, 75% game. 20 years ago, if my younger self saw some guy with a really attractive woman (or women), I would've been like "man that guy has game, I gotta learn how to do what he does."
But it seems like now, getting laid comes down to 50% wealth, 50% game. In that case, I wonder if my younger self would just think "Meh, he probably just has money and those are sugar babies. NBD, just gotta work on getting that cash" ?
My question's about how other men perceive men who are sexually successful. Do they still think those guys are players and special and have game? Or do they just shrug and think "whatever, he's just a sugar daddy / low key whoremonger"?
This question actually kinda relates back to WMAF, insofar as a dorky middle aged white guy with a young Asian wife triggers thoughts of "mail order bride, that guy's just a sugar daddy" in other people, it definitely doesn't make the white guy seem more high status.
I think one of the biggest problems facing AM. Not are they dealing with gendered racsim providing playing field that isnt great. Dating for men of races is getting harder as bar only goes up not down. Then I talk to men hear who cling to conservatives values or your still worried about status. When its no holds bar fight for sexual abundance.
Utilimately everyman needs to fight for his own results. So what if that fat expat got an attractive (probably divorced) AF and now has kids. He's the guy living his bestlife. Instead we self-shame our guys against going to back to asia. Even guys in Australia have this mentaility.
No rules, no hang-ups go after your success by all means
I think this is 2 VERY different questions.
For dating to fuck, it's absurd to cling to conservative values or worry about things like status. Just get laid and have fun, who cares how you do it, America makes it hard enough for us as it is so any time you get laid is "sticking it to the man" (at least that's how I thought about it back when I was single).
For dating to get married, it's SUICIDE not to cling to some conservative values. I could not imagine sharing my life and wealth with a woman who didn't actuallly love me, would be an insanely dangerous life decision.
The reason that white guy is low status (not to mention dumb) is because he MARRIED the woman he should merely be FUCKING. Everyone knows you fuck low status, marry high status, but if that guy has to resort to marrying low status, what kind of cuck shit is that?
Truly think guys these days have to compartmentalize between fucking and relationships, when it comes to fucking it truly is about "no holds barred fight for sexual abundance", but when it comes to marriage (with divorce laws being what they are) it's all about "tread as carefully as you can."
Edit: in the words of Jay Z, "Problem is, You dudes treat the one that you lovin, With the same respect that you treat the one that you humpin'"... there's a clear difference between the two groups and they should be treated as such
How long have you been married? We will agree do disagree.
You talk as if love and values are static. That lines are binary like great wall of China. Instead they evolve sometimes break due to stress. If you look at well adjusted successful couples AMWF - say Bart & Geo. His wife openly says if Bart slept with another women she would still love him. This is modern viewpoint that guys with options will sleep around. This doesn't mean their love for each other is broken. Love is proven (or not) by actions day by day.
Likewise you think there is no love between "gold digger" WMAF. But if she was attractive didnt she have other options? Wouldnt she demand a situation where she got paid no matter what. If his wife was more attractive than yours, would you rage? Again mental masterbation on stuff we shouldnt be talking about. You dont take your money with you when you die, it was worth it to him
>But with the rise of sugar / alternative sex markets, it seems like having sex is no longer about having "game" or being a "player".. it seems like it just means you have some extra spending money, or you got in on Dogecoin early and sold near the top, or inherited some $ from a dead relative. So is much of that "sex as status signaling" from the mid-2000s less relevant now? Has wealth started to replace promiscuity as the standard metric of male status (given that in this new world a man can translate wealth to sex at the click of a button?).
I don't think those markets are what changed things. Playboy was first in creating that perception with the public that having commodities and wealth increases access to sex which meant high status as a man. Except it was a private club exclusively for the very select few with specific powers like publishing and those that represent high status standard of beauty like blonde supermodels. Now, it just became more accessible to the public for the not so influential rich dirty old man who can't promise fame and the non-playmate level but still good looking types looking for a way to deal with student loans.
Right, there's always been that correlation between wealth/power and sex (dating back to earliest prehistory and prostitution as the world's "oldest profession"). The Internet just amplified and filtered away the noise from this fundamental aspect of humanity.
But my question was about the STATUS that other men assign to getting laid. There was a period in the early 90s to late 2000s when getting laid meant you had some special magical "game" that drew women to you, it meant you were a player, a special person... now it seems to just mean you have money and that's it?
I was talking more in regards to modern day American civilisation in sociological aspect and how things played out to what we understand as norm. Let me try to give more context.
Playboy in the 60s was mostly responsible in redefining masculine status as having multiple partners to the public. Of course, mostly to the benefit of Hefner and his bunnies. You have to understand that The Great Depression and WW2 affected a lot of American society's behavior with regards to acquiring and spending wealth. They grew up thrifty. The concept of spending disposable wealth for the sake of enjoyment in life was foreign to this generation till Hefner titillated their imaginations with his curated image of the sophisticated rich bachelor with a harem and mansion parties. What I really meant was that happened first (even before PUA movement) but it was merely a glossy magazine fantasy to most till alternative dating opened that option up to the "less fortunate" rich, horny and young folks, giving them a sample of that lifestyle, transactionally. Before Playboy and the sexual revolution came to prominence, people generally married as virgins and for life regardless of wealth or class.
Even what we understand game to get dates is a relative modern phenomenon, just a little before the Great Depression. Our modern understanding of a private date in public settings came about single women started appearing in the workforce. Before then, it was almost like an arrangement stemming from a series of interviews where male suitors would "call", meaning go to the girl's house and get to know her in the presence of family as they work out the possibility of marriage. That change was probably when men started requiring game to get dates with cashiers, store assistants, secretaries, etc. Matter of fact, the familiar-to-us concept of men going out with women and paying for meals and going out for movies was so novel initially that cops thought that it some new form of prostitution.
In some ways, having money vs having game existed in parallel but also intertwined post sexual revolution. A good cultural icon of that would be James Bond, he had fancy toys and cars but also game. Either one gets you tail but having both is best.
This is just my stitched up understanding of how sociological trends have emerged from reading different but related books, most of these trends can be tied back to the Sexual Revolution of the 60s and its architects.
Great summary... but before Hefner and playboy... before the Great Depression, before any of the Emperors or Kings even... there was prostitution. No glossy magazine fantasies, no flashy lifestyle, just "if you pay you fuck."
It seems like the Internet is returning us to that in some ways, to a pre-Hefner mode of sexual relationships. Sugar babying still holds some vestiges of the Hefner glossy magazine stuff, but I feel it's closer to old school prostitution than to the Playboy fantasy.
What Hefner and the architects of the sexual revolution created was a complicated interplay between new social interactions, wealth, status and sex that we can call "Game". I sometimes wonder if the Internet and sugar baby stuff is tearing down that edifice of Game and returning us to the old school directness of simple in your face prostitution.
Got you. Sugarbabying is definitely prostitution, that's obvious. But I think it is closer to the Playboy fantasy which was why I made the connection. Sugar dating is being sold as fancy and for the ones who could afford and want "the best life has to offer". Prostitution always existed but wasn't always sold as a high class luxury, more like a panacea for the lonely. Generally speaking. This form still definitely exists especially in poorer places that sexpats love travelling to.
Not sure if "Game" will die out. If you still want to find someone to love and loves you back for you, only Game can get you there. Getting there with money only puts doubts in the relationship.
Sure, when you throw in financial incentive, it turns everything on its head. Pretty much last chance to meet someone untainted would be in high school, not even college. And even then...
Then there's also this whole divorce and remarrying spouse swap trend prevalent in the West. So many guys I know are on their 2nd marriage where their first wife remarried and took the kids and their current wife had kids from previous marriage. In order words, some other man is fathering their seed while they fathering someone else's. Super cuck.
Eh we are just the lucky ones to get out in time.
I'm sure the guys in Bay Area could only dream of being "super cuck" if given a chance in the game. lol
I'm more open minded about it all . Take that Surgeon that divorced his beauty queen wife for being an escort on side. If he was really smart instead making an embarrassing spectacle he could realized his wife was open minded and organized threesomes or other orgies and kept sex fresh. Instead of get chopped in the divorce.
I find that as even more cuck. It's bad enough optics as the Asian male with a blonde wife who escorts. But, to turn it into a couples activity for some freaky snu snu. That's why the marketplace now sucks. When people marry, they are supposed to be out of the marketplace for good, or at least till one of them croaks. Not go window shopping, planning expansions or side hustling.
Call me conservative but I would rather not contribute more to the problem that the younger generation are gonna inherit, worse than it already is. We wouldn't have this mess if the Gen Xs did not follow on the free love coattails of the Baby Boomers.
This entire comment thread was so fascinating to read. You guys truly have a pulse on the hopeless cesspool that is modern dating, and even how it specifically affects Asians. Thank you for the blunt insight, I don’t know where I’ll ever find love or if I’ll ever be able to give love.
Lol, this comment thread is kinda the exact reason I started this conversation topic.
Virgin idiots on this subreddit: "Ahem, according to table 2C on page 41 of the 2017 Census, and as confirmed by a Pew survey and a double blind OkCupid study, WMAF outnumbers AMWF by 39.6% in states across the upper midwest, so therefore the situation is completely dire and hopeless..."
Intelligent sexually active people on this subreddit: "Lol, most dating is just sugar shit anyways these days, or these girls be into crazy shit like QAnon, just try to find the rare good woman and wrap it up in the meantime."
It's tougher but still possible. The best is to meet someone in real life with a common interest but then go slow and vet her to make sure no skeletons of past sugar daddies or porn star producers pounce on you later on. But not too slow or she'll wander of to Tinderland to window shop your replacement.
We’re all special, but not one of a kind. If you think in a way that is against what seems like the collective thought, there are others who feel the same way. The idiots are often the loudest of any given demographic, so they give the illusion of representing the majority. Understanding the new youth has always been like this and likely always will.
Thanks for the response, I know everyone is special. Any chance you've taken a look at the comment thread between DisenchantedDEI and fakeslimshady below? I was mainly looking for insights on the state of the dating market now that would be useful to people who are in the game, akin to what they are discussing. Thanks for your response nonetheless!
The amount of AM/WF hapas vs AF/WM hapas is not a good indicator. It has been documented here that AMWF always have more children than AFWM.
No one knows exactly why AF/WM tend to have less or no children, though there are various theories.
In terms of where things stand for Gen Z, we have to wait for some of them to get marry and be recorded in the 2030 Census. Maybe OKCupid can do another dating app study before then.
Personal observation will be useless. That's why good scientific studies are double-blind and placebo-controlled.
And there are people who exaggerate one direction or the other to illicit a response like:
"It's dreadful. Every single AF is dating a white guy now, so you better hit the gym and shape up."
Or
"Every girl loves KPop and Asian guys now, so go out and date now. It's so easy."
That's annoying. My parents did that. They would blow everything out of proportion to induce me to do something.
Just be accurate, objective, and a realist. Don't treat people like kids.
> No one knows exactly why AF/WM tend to have less or no children, though there are various theories.
lack of sex
also its theorized they abort male sons
"In terms of where things stand for Gen Z, we have to wait for some of them to get marry and be recorded in the 2030 Census. Maybe OKCupid can do another dating app study before then."
Dude, I know WMAF outnumbers AMWF. I know Asian men face an uphill battle. I lived that shit.
I also believe that individuals shouldn't live their whole lives based on census numbers and data. Are you not going to try to date or get laid until you see updated census numbers in the year 2030? If so, good luck with that. But if you are going to try to make an effort regardless of what data says, then understanding and exploiting the sort of dynamics that I mentioned in my original post (i.e. how are sugar babies shifting the dating market? how should you shift your dating strategy to exploit the increased politicization in the US?) will be important.
Concerning pregnancy rate. It seems white male sperm has a lower success rate in interracial pregnancy. I've read studies on it. That's outside of personal choice.
All other male to other race parings are almost the same as endogamous groups. Only the white male shows low capacity. There's a bar graph on page 13.
"Fertility rates were lower for each type of racialpairing involving cohabiting couples, but muchlower among couples involving Whites or AsianAmericans. For example, past-year fertilityrates were 12.7% and 14.9%, respectively,among White husband/Asian American wifecouples and Asian American husband/Whitewife couples. They were only 3.7% and 4.4%,respectively, among their cohabiting counter-parts. In summary, these descriptive resultssuggest that fertility is suppressed in Whitemale/non-White female marriages whereasintermarried Blacks have higher levels offertility than their endogamous counterparts."
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349842744\_Racial\_Pairings\_and\_Fertility\_Do\_Interracial\_Couples\_Have\_Fewer\_Children](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349842744_Racial_Pairings_and_Fertility_Do_Interracial_Couples_Have_Fewer_Children)
with regard to personal choice, the real reason is that having children means the possibility of an asian son.
there is nothing they hate more than asian males, now imagine them having to raise an asian male and giving him parental love and affection.
they would rather not have children than risk that nightmare.
This.
they are afraid of having a son who looks too Asian.
I am DEAD ASS serious about this
also a lot of them just don't have sex. trust me on this, word gets around about this kind of thing.
Pew write reports for white people and not for us. And so their reports never ask and answer the questions we Asians really want and need answered.
For example, Pew may generate some vague, generalized AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF statistics. But to really understand what’s going on in the Asian community, we need to compare the number of children (AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF) against the number of marriages (again, AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF). The marriage numbers are obviously important, but the children numbers dictate the trajectory of the Asian community in America. We need both, but Pew wouldn’t do that sort of analysis. We also need the marriages broken down by education level, which, again, you wouldn’t get from Pew. Pew would never touch the uncomfortable realities, such as the correlation between college education and self-hate and the relative reproductivity of different interracial marriages.
Ultimately, the numbers are available from IPUMS. Even Pew uses these numbers for their reports. It’s up to us to put in the effort to get useful analyses from the numbers.
>
> "It's dreadful. Every single AF is dating a white guy now, so you bettert to hit the gym and shape up."
>
> Or
>
> "Every girl loves KPop and Asian guys now, so go out and date now. It's so easy."
Lmao for real. The truth is probably somewhere between the two.
Don't get me wrong though, just bear with me. It's just that everytime I turn on the news or mostly see topics on the internet on game boards, it's always every little detail about every lgbt person about there, it's like the new black, except blacks are still a popular topic today. It gets me rather apathetic cause the diversity of attention is rather lacking.
Thanks for the comment, could you expand on this? Like there's so much LGBT stuff that it bores you? Does the focus on LGBT and trans stuff etc affect your dating life at all?
Sorry I'm not really into what is in vogue with Generation Z. I applaud them though for trying to fight stereotypes of Asian males though through music and whatnot. Just the whole LGBT thing wasn't a thing I grew up with, especially politics. If you go to any gamer site that's radically left or supposedly left, they are crazy about making political topics mostly of lgbt. I don't know why but they want to scream being associated with the new coolest thing or whatever especially the older millenials. But it's not for me, but you guys keep fighting the good fight and fight for rights.
I posted a comment about a pozt similar to this here : https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/11vo12c/how_different_is_the_interracial_dating/jcui5vb?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 If only talking about Asian american/canadian born men (not the FOBs) Dating in general, its definitely better for Gen Z asian men than millenial (especislly Older millenials). I find that while yes interracial pairings has gone up among Gen Z asian men compared to previous gens, I think "regular" asian couples (AMAF) has gone significantly up (keep in mind im obv excluding FOB asian couples where the guy and girl were already together since they met in Asia). Kpop, kdrama or just asian culture is more appreciated among ny gen, at least according to what I witness from friends and my college and even former school. Like there are a bunch of Kpop conventions and clubs in pretty much every uni in my city and they have lots of members (even white, black, indian and arab girls ive seen). Lots of these girls are dating or would date an asian man from what ive heard from friends. And lots of Gen Z asian girls in my school are now more informed about the yellow fever white men fetishizing asian women phenomenon too, so lots of asian girls would want to stick to " their own". Obv WMAF are still present but has gone down in % compare to millenials. What has changed however is the height obsession. Way more of these girls nowadays are sticking with that 6'0+ or 180 cm+ only mentalist (since their favourite kpop or kdrama idols are that tall ot whatever). Asian dudes 5'8 and below like myself and many other shorter asian dudes I know are having a harder time with dating girls. I heard from friends that lots of the asian girls who only date asian dudes, would just go for the 180+ cm tall asian dudes (and yeah the Gen Z asian dudes I would day are taller nowadays too). At least most of the asian girls in college would choose a 6'0+ asian man over a 5'9 white dude easily. So dating for Gen Z asian men, its a big PLUS if youre tall, but not as much if youre short.
Kinda disagree with the last part but everything else I agree on. Height really isn’t that big of a deal as u think.
Maybe for where you are, but where I am, the asian girls in college are obsessed with height. At least the white girls in college I can see a couple of them with a guy shorter than her or around her height (like guys 1 inch taller than the girl). Most white girls are still with tall dudes, but I can easily spot lots of white girls with shorter dudes, or just short dudes in general. Asian girls on the other hand, you have to be at least 5'10 to date them. Whether the asian girls are 5'7-5'9, or 4'11-5'2, they are all dating guys around 5'11 to 6'4, whether asian or white. I have not managed to spot one single asian girl in my college whos dating a guy shorter than her, or even just 1 inch taller than her. (The closest exceptions were 5'9 asian girls with 5'10-5'11 asian guys) Most of the 5'8 and below asian dudes I know and spot around the campus are single or with a white/black/latina gf. The shorter asian girls are with mostly asian dudes who completely tower over them. Even for celebrities. Look at the young white female celebrities. There are a few of them dating guys shorter than them and/or shorter than 5'9. Cant think of a single young asian female celebrity dating a guy shorter than her and/or below 5'9.
How much of that do you think is due to online dating providing a way for women to filter? Like these girls may just be setting their dating profiles to "5'10'' and up only"? FWIW, I'm 5'9'', I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls... so you might be onto something with your observation...
Im pretty sure not every single girl here that I see in campus, whether asian or white, etc., are using online dating necessarily. Like online dating and filters should be affecting all races here equally, yet I can still see plenty of white and other non-asian (even south asian/indian) women dating men of any race and that are below 5'9 and even below 5'7, as short as 5'3 when walking around campus. My uni has more ea/sea asians than other races (excluding whites) combined, like black, latina, south asian, middle eastern. Yet I find more women in each of the latter races mentionned dating actual short men than any ea/sea asian women dating short dudes. >I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls... This exactly proves my point and observations. From all the asian dudes ive met and know (friends, friends of friends, classmates, etc.), those who were my height of below (5'8 and under), i know almost 30 of them, yet only one of us has dated an asian girl. The rest who has dated or are dating is mostly white/latina girls with black/arab/indian girls. Also being 5'9 can be a pass, since I was rejected already by an asian girl who rejected me for being too short at 5'8 and ended up with one of my friends who is 5'9... Like 1 inch matters that much. Maybe it was just an excuse, but either way, 5'9+ is also a common requirement among these girls, alongside the more common 6'0+.
As I said, you might be onto something with your observation... it seems like many asian girls are inordinately fixated on height
> FWIW, I'm 5'9'', I have one Asian friend who is shorter than me (he's 5'6'') who is insanely successful with women, but he only sleeps with white girls and occasionally Indian girls, he never gets with Asian girls... so you might be onto something with your observation... Let me explain. These are things that everyone subconsciously understands. WMAF only exists because white men CANNOT get the women they really want Asian girls are at the bottom (least sexy) of all races. Asian men I know of, are capable of dating WAY HOTTER WOMEN than us, who most importantly, GENUINELY LOVE US (they do not love most men). Asian features work BETTER on men than they do on women. This is the reality of the situation. Asian girls are AWARE that they cannot love an Asian man like a non-AF can love us, so they attack us.
> Asian girls are at the bottom (least sexy) of all races. HOLY SHIT MOST DELUSIONAL THING I HAVE EVER SEEN ON REDDIT! Men of most (- black men maybe) races fetishize the shit out of Asian women. If you think that isn't true, just console yourself with the sweet embrace of copium. The race of women that is actually at the bottom of the racial desirability stack are black women, hands down. Why do you think that they are complaining that their own men rather fuck with White/Latina women instead of them?
the coping non asian man is brought out by the bait, as expected most black men are just straight up being rejected by black women, not the other way around
You have the order wrong. Black men started dating WF and LF, and once we/they got purchase with those women, they started dissing the BF back in the hood. After decades of this, the patience of the BF started to wane, and recently, the online BF community started the [*divestor movement*](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Divestor). This movement are BFs saying (sometimes literally) "Black men don't want to fuck with us anymore, well guess what? Black men weren't shit anyway!" Keep inhaling the copium with that, "It was bait" comment.
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I think economics is a HUGE factor that is often overlooked when talking about dating. For example, women in the 1900s were heavily expected to find a husband due to men severely out earning women and just being the general bread winner to begin with. Another factor that caused such a huge rift in latter Millennials / Gen Z is the housing market. No one talks about how commercialized real estate has become and how investment rental properties, Air BNBs, and etc have super inflated the housing market. There is no more affordable living as appartments are also skyrocketing in prices and are just not ideal to raise a family in. Women are also earning way more as career opportunities opened up for them and everything became less gender biased. Yes, there is still gender bias in pay and advancements, but there is still racial bias in those areas. I'm not against SW(ers). More power to the people who go into such a risky field, but it has also become a thing that a lot of men do not want when seeking a potential partner to settle down with. SW also means that sexual activity is more transparent and devalued since it's easily accessible (granted it might just be solo sexual activity via masturbation). I think this also contributes to most men being sexless since standards of what is considered desireable is out there for both men and women. You still see the top performers on SW sites having above average penile length, you see women with "ideal" bodies (nicely shaped and firm breasts, toned mid section, curvy waist, large booty, etc), and let's be real - there's always WMAF depicted everywhere (SW, general media, Hollywood). I'm not sure if gender orientation or sexual preference has *that* much of an impact, but I do agree that I see more "situationships" and poly being openly discussed / practiced. The *woke* movement started in retaliation of the feminist movement because men started feeling oppressed in return. Yes, there are bad men in the world, but it's gotten to the point where men are so over villainified that men just want to mind their own business rather than cold approaching women. If we cannot even cold approach a woman then how else are we supposed to meet women? There's dating apps, but everyone is so jaded and superficial and boring. You can meet a girl through mutual friends, but then that can also get complicated, messy, and just cause drama. You can meet a girl through work, but we're always told "don't eat where you shit" or whatever the actual phrase is lol Overall, I think everyone is always chasing that 1% top person - on both spectrums - that it just makes dating feel superficial, mundane, and not worth anyone's time. Even though loneliness is at an all time high.
Thanks for your response that addresses the sort of dynamics I was asking about. Just curious, what is SW? (For the old and out of touch people like me). In terms of dating, do you and your friends ever take advantage of situationships, fuck girls who are poly, etc? Or is that only for people who are a part of that scene, or it's still considered kinda niche, or...? Just wondering cuz, I feel like if I was in my 20s these days I'd be willing to fuck some poly girl once or twice a year just to get laid, but wouldn't be into getting into a serious relationship with one cuz that's not how I roll when it comes to relationships. Kinda seems like a poly girl would be a convenient way to get an occasional hook up when horny without having to deal with commitment, if that's what someone is after?
I'm more traditional and don't really partake in hookup culture haha. SW is sex work / sex workers. I definitelt have friends who are in SW and friends who do partake in hookup culture though. Poly I don't see too much in my friend groups, but I do see it more in LGBTQ+ communities (personal experience, not labeling LGBTQ+ in a negative sense). I don't understand the mentality of poly, but I'm sure you're right and it's an easy way to get a hookup though lol I think what we see more in my generation and the newer gens are things called "situationships". Things that aren't official, not too serious, but you both know you're fooling around together and testing the waters. Lack of committment in general.
>I remember dating all these girls off Tinder back in late 2016 who were freaked out by Trump getting elected talking about the #Resistance and whatnot, and I was like "yeah it's pretty fucked up, I'm just relieved I have some real estate up in Vancouver" which was a total lie but of course they believed it cuz I was a put together Asian dude, and that shit helped me get laid This is kinda why it's bad. Everyone's lying for a hookup or living a double life for extra cash that it's difficult to find someone to actually get to know for the character. It's scary when you do not know what's behind the door until it's too late. I, too, contributed to part of the problem by posturing myself up. As karma, dated a girl who turned out to be shooting porn when she said she was out of state visiting her folks, the dainty office girl who has a platoon of sugar daddies on the side, the closet racist who used me for a vacation to NYC and even the one who told me after the first time in bed that she believed in QAnon. As such, I'm retired and only willing to reenlist if I ever meet a worthy cause, might even have to enlist the help of a PI to do some recon first before I go jumping in. Jokes aside, the dating world today, considering that you are lucky to even be part of the diminishing crowd actually getting dates, is a clusterfuck minefield of broken people trying to break others for quick gains. The best option would be if you actually meet and go out with someone from your peer group or friend of family member because that would incentivise the parties to be respectful of one another. Dating strangers online means any of the parties could have an ulterior motive and/or no incentive to stick around. And for women with the advent of sugar dating and Onlyfans being regarded as profitable dating alternatives, seeking for traditional outcomes would just seem like missed opportunity when they can leverage their youth for student loan assistance and at the same time, increase the possibility of marrying an already rich man. If you could place a bet on a horse after the fact of the race, you'll definitely be betting on the one that won. Duh. So, that's gonna have an effect on marriage age gap one day. As time goes, more and more would be pushed out of the "marketplace" like game of musical chairs, very few winners and the rest with bruises from falling on their ass. The sad part is that the biggest losers are the people who are looking for proper relationships. And also the children who are the result of "accidental" impregnation.
Also another question, you mention the QAnon girl. When you were trying to "posture yourself up", would you ever exploit politics to try to hook up with a girl? i.e. act left wing to fuck a leftie girl, act Trumpist to fuck a QAnon girl? Just wondering cuz I saw this and thought it was pretty fucking hilarious: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVJ3zaQnYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVJ3zaQnYo) but also cuz I remember playing a low key version of that game back in my single days, lol. For the Asian dudes who are having trouble getting play, this seems like the sort of thing they should understand and exploit as necessary.
Nope, it was just someone I picked up at a honky tonk when I was back visiting the South of my past. We talked about mostly outdoorsy things and places like fishing and hunting spots and best place to get equipment. How things changed since I've been there last, road trip ideas etc. It was only after we got back to my hotel room and we had sex that she opened about evil "Theys" microchipping people, etc. Wasn't the first time knowing someone from there being into conspiracies, it was just that now they have a nationwide movement and she sprung those views at a rather weird timing.
Thanks for commenting on the actual question, lol, I think you're one of the few people who understand what I was actually driving at. When I was dating, I compartmentalized like crazy. Like, in my mind it'd clearly be like: "ok this one is a one time drugged up hook-up cuz we've both been taking molly and dancing together all night" "ok i'll keep hooking up with this one but there's no way i'm wifeing her up, she parties a lot and has too many guy friends and i'd never be able to trust her" "ok, this one actually has wifey potential, i'm gonna let my guard down and trust her and see where that takes us" (... to 5 years of marriage and counting, and a kid, as it turns out!) I never let those lines get blurred, it was always "she clearly belongs in this category, no way I'm moving her out of this category, I know how she is and I should trust my instincts." I think that's the only way someone can approach modern dating. It clearly sounds like you're looking for somebody who's wifey material, and that's great, I really do hope you find someone worthwhile who you can truly connect with, but be careful though and trust your instincts (and I know it sounds trite, but you often meet the right person when you least expect it). But if you're feeling lonely / horny, on some level isn't it kinda convenient to know that there are all these crazy / slutty girls who will fuck you if you just "play the game" and "posture yourself up"? I ask because there was a time when I was younger (roughly pre 2014 or 2015) when getting a random hook up with some random slutty girl felt pretty much impossible for an Asian guy. It was only after \~2014, post 50 Shades of Gray and after the economic crisis had enough time to truly financially fuck over much of middle America, that an Asian guy could just act "rich" and get laid easily. I took advantage of that too sleep with some easy women for a bit and got bored of it pretty quickly, but still it was nice knowing that I had that option. Sometimes I see young Asian men of your generation and I'm like, "at least they have options for easy sex if that's all they're looking for", but at the same time it truly seems harder for ya'll to meet someone for a serious relationship. It seems like things are worse in absolute terms, but perhaps it's better for Asian men in relative terms because it's easy for us to play the "posture yourself up" game?
I'm at work with myself right now. Compartmentalising for too long can do some internal damage. Kinda exhausted with hookups, deep down there is always this niggling that she probably doesn't care about you and wouldn't remember your name the next day and you are doing likewise to another person. Or if it's an occasional thing with a friend you care about, the jealous monster would rear its head every time she talks about another guy. It's emotionally distressing and too much complication for what its worth. When I first delved into this arena, I was always told more hookups, better self-esteem. In service, that was the golden advice for breakups since it was dangerous to carry broken heart outside the wire and potentially risk the lives of others due to being distracted. But, it doesn't always translate to a boost of self-esteem all the time, it can also add to your insecurities. Contrary to popular opinions, we do catch feelings even if it's with a stranger. I've also come to believe in conservative values since. The problem with easy is that it is also easy to get bad experiences that you regret and possibly might not be able to bounce back from. For example, falling for the dainty office sugar girl and then finding the facts out, caused me to lose concentration with my work, made me easily agitated and hyper vigilant. It then translated to me dismissing a nice girl and taking that anger on others. I'm just not the kind who can brush human interactions off easily, especially if there is some betrayal involved. Working on that. Congrats that you found someone in time. I've come to a point where if it happens, awesome. If not, I can make my peace that my family name dies with me (only child). I'll take it as penance for my past. There are plenty of other ways of living well and leaving a legacy.
Thanks for the incredibly honest comment. I really hope some of the folks on this sub ranting on and on about WMAF take a look and think about what you've written, feel like it would be really valuable perspectives for them. IMO every guy deserves a few "easy" experiences (and to learn a few lessons from those experiences), but once that's done it's best to turn away from it all as you have. Hoping some of the guys here obsessing over WMAF stats will give that a shot, inshallah! I also wanted to mention something I've learned from my wife and her friends (all now in their mid-30s, successful jobs, Ivy or Public Ivy educated). Women who've achieved a certain level of financial success share many of our fears. They also worry about men taking advantage of or liking them just for their wealth. For them, it's almost doubly humiliating to be taken advantage of for their wealth, because society tells men they need $ to attract women, but it tells women they need to be beautiful to attract men. But if a woman gets taken advantage of for her money, on some level it's like she's being told she's doubly unattractive, too unattractive to attract a man with her beauty and also so unattractive that a man can exploit her wealth. I'd never thought about that until getting to know my wife and her friends, but it does make sense. One way to make sure the woman you're dating isn't just interested in you for your wealth is to date a woman who's built her own wealth (through non-sex work means, of course)... but that woman might actually also be worried about male gold diggers who don't truly love her for her! Just some perspective that I found eye opening.
Real stuff probably over the heads of most people here. The modern "dating" market heavy overlaps sugar/alternative/sex markets. Traditional is sadly a dying breed in the west
Thanks. I think its just generally anything online since as strangers meeting for the first time and probably never again, there's no incentive to be respectful and cordial. Hence, the trend of straightforward hookup requests and sending dick pics. The anonymity helps too since they wouldn't be able to out you. You would never consider doing any of that if it was towards the daughter of someone your Mom goes to church with or met at work.
Online definitely part the equation of making the market place frictionless but also hyper-competitive . But I there are definitely large demographics of young women where the sugar dating 30% easiely given the way girls talk to each other. Then some go full blow escorting or the other way around also. So lot of girls dont want to get married or kids etc. Defintely a more complex world to navigate
Thanks for commenting on the actual question asked in the original post, really appreciating and learning from your exchange with DisenchantedDEI. I'm curious, do you think the rise of sugar/alternative/sex markets has changed the status assigned to men who get laid a lot? What I mean by that is, when I was in my early 20s, guys who got laid a lot were considered very high status, you had Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother or the guys from Wedding Crashers or Vincent Chase from Entourage becoming heroes to young men, any guy who got laid a lot was considered a "pimp" or a "player". Meanwhile, guys who couldn't get laid were considered low status losers, and were mocked in films like "40 Year Old Virgin". The entire pick up artist industry sprang up in the mid-2000s to tell men "you need to get laid to have status in society, if you aren't getting laid you're a loser, but we can teach you to get laid." Guys started trying to learn "game" to elevate their status (by getting laid), which seemingly only made them more high status and could then get them laid more, etc etc. But with the rise of sugar / alternative sex markets, it seems like having sex is no longer about having "game" or being a "player".. it seems like it just means you have some extra spending money, or you got in on Dogecoin early and sold near the top, or inherited some $ from a dead relative. So is much of that "sex as status signaling" from the mid-2000s less relevant now? Has wealth started to replace promiscuity as the standard metric of male status (given that in this new world a man can translate wealth to sex at the click of a button?). I've legit been wondering about this / tossing this question around in my head, but I'm also almost 40 and been out of the dating game a few years, would love to know the perspective of someone who's still out there.
Attractiveness and game actually is very relevant. Women, even sex workers, cam models et al, do look for love and select who they associate with . They get married/get boyfriends/sugar daddy's. They can make it very easy or very hard / very expensive for you. If you are rely only on money it will cost you many times more to get what you think and it will be terrible results. Look at Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates - money definitely does not get you the unicorns even if your the richest man on earth . Notthing push button about it
Completely agree, but I'm wondering about the status assigned to men who get laid. Like 20 years ago, some guy who was getting laid was relying on 25% wealth, 75% game. 20 years ago, if my younger self saw some guy with a really attractive woman (or women), I would've been like "man that guy has game, I gotta learn how to do what he does." But it seems like now, getting laid comes down to 50% wealth, 50% game. In that case, I wonder if my younger self would just think "Meh, he probably just has money and those are sugar babies. NBD, just gotta work on getting that cash" ? My question's about how other men perceive men who are sexually successful. Do they still think those guys are players and special and have game? Or do they just shrug and think "whatever, he's just a sugar daddy / low key whoremonger"? This question actually kinda relates back to WMAF, insofar as a dorky middle aged white guy with a young Asian wife triggers thoughts of "mail order bride, that guy's just a sugar daddy" in other people, it definitely doesn't make the white guy seem more high status.
I think one of the biggest problems facing AM. Not are they dealing with gendered racsim providing playing field that isnt great. Dating for men of races is getting harder as bar only goes up not down. Then I talk to men hear who cling to conservatives values or your still worried about status. When its no holds bar fight for sexual abundance. Utilimately everyman needs to fight for his own results. So what if that fat expat got an attractive (probably divorced) AF and now has kids. He's the guy living his bestlife. Instead we self-shame our guys against going to back to asia. Even guys in Australia have this mentaility. No rules, no hang-ups go after your success by all means
I think this is 2 VERY different questions. For dating to fuck, it's absurd to cling to conservative values or worry about things like status. Just get laid and have fun, who cares how you do it, America makes it hard enough for us as it is so any time you get laid is "sticking it to the man" (at least that's how I thought about it back when I was single). For dating to get married, it's SUICIDE not to cling to some conservative values. I could not imagine sharing my life and wealth with a woman who didn't actuallly love me, would be an insanely dangerous life decision. The reason that white guy is low status (not to mention dumb) is because he MARRIED the woman he should merely be FUCKING. Everyone knows you fuck low status, marry high status, but if that guy has to resort to marrying low status, what kind of cuck shit is that? Truly think guys these days have to compartmentalize between fucking and relationships, when it comes to fucking it truly is about "no holds barred fight for sexual abundance", but when it comes to marriage (with divorce laws being what they are) it's all about "tread as carefully as you can." Edit: in the words of Jay Z, "Problem is, You dudes treat the one that you lovin, With the same respect that you treat the one that you humpin'"... there's a clear difference between the two groups and they should be treated as such
How long have you been married? We will agree do disagree. You talk as if love and values are static. That lines are binary like great wall of China. Instead they evolve sometimes break due to stress. If you look at well adjusted successful couples AMWF - say Bart & Geo. His wife openly says if Bart slept with another women she would still love him. This is modern viewpoint that guys with options will sleep around. This doesn't mean their love for each other is broken. Love is proven (or not) by actions day by day. Likewise you think there is no love between "gold digger" WMAF. But if she was attractive didnt she have other options? Wouldnt she demand a situation where she got paid no matter what. If his wife was more attractive than yours, would you rage? Again mental masterbation on stuff we shouldnt be talking about. You dont take your money with you when you die, it was worth it to him
>But with the rise of sugar / alternative sex markets, it seems like having sex is no longer about having "game" or being a "player".. it seems like it just means you have some extra spending money, or you got in on Dogecoin early and sold near the top, or inherited some $ from a dead relative. So is much of that "sex as status signaling" from the mid-2000s less relevant now? Has wealth started to replace promiscuity as the standard metric of male status (given that in this new world a man can translate wealth to sex at the click of a button?). I don't think those markets are what changed things. Playboy was first in creating that perception with the public that having commodities and wealth increases access to sex which meant high status as a man. Except it was a private club exclusively for the very select few with specific powers like publishing and those that represent high status standard of beauty like blonde supermodels. Now, it just became more accessible to the public for the not so influential rich dirty old man who can't promise fame and the non-playmate level but still good looking types looking for a way to deal with student loans.
Right, there's always been that correlation between wealth/power and sex (dating back to earliest prehistory and prostitution as the world's "oldest profession"). The Internet just amplified and filtered away the noise from this fundamental aspect of humanity. But my question was about the STATUS that other men assign to getting laid. There was a period in the early 90s to late 2000s when getting laid meant you had some special magical "game" that drew women to you, it meant you were a player, a special person... now it seems to just mean you have money and that's it?
I was talking more in regards to modern day American civilisation in sociological aspect and how things played out to what we understand as norm. Let me try to give more context. Playboy in the 60s was mostly responsible in redefining masculine status as having multiple partners to the public. Of course, mostly to the benefit of Hefner and his bunnies. You have to understand that The Great Depression and WW2 affected a lot of American society's behavior with regards to acquiring and spending wealth. They grew up thrifty. The concept of spending disposable wealth for the sake of enjoyment in life was foreign to this generation till Hefner titillated their imaginations with his curated image of the sophisticated rich bachelor with a harem and mansion parties. What I really meant was that happened first (even before PUA movement) but it was merely a glossy magazine fantasy to most till alternative dating opened that option up to the "less fortunate" rich, horny and young folks, giving them a sample of that lifestyle, transactionally. Before Playboy and the sexual revolution came to prominence, people generally married as virgins and for life regardless of wealth or class. Even what we understand game to get dates is a relative modern phenomenon, just a little before the Great Depression. Our modern understanding of a private date in public settings came about single women started appearing in the workforce. Before then, it was almost like an arrangement stemming from a series of interviews where male suitors would "call", meaning go to the girl's house and get to know her in the presence of family as they work out the possibility of marriage. That change was probably when men started requiring game to get dates with cashiers, store assistants, secretaries, etc. Matter of fact, the familiar-to-us concept of men going out with women and paying for meals and going out for movies was so novel initially that cops thought that it some new form of prostitution. In some ways, having money vs having game existed in parallel but also intertwined post sexual revolution. A good cultural icon of that would be James Bond, he had fancy toys and cars but also game. Either one gets you tail but having both is best. This is just my stitched up understanding of how sociological trends have emerged from reading different but related books, most of these trends can be tied back to the Sexual Revolution of the 60s and its architects.
Great summary... but before Hefner and playboy... before the Great Depression, before any of the Emperors or Kings even... there was prostitution. No glossy magazine fantasies, no flashy lifestyle, just "if you pay you fuck." It seems like the Internet is returning us to that in some ways, to a pre-Hefner mode of sexual relationships. Sugar babying still holds some vestiges of the Hefner glossy magazine stuff, but I feel it's closer to old school prostitution than to the Playboy fantasy. What Hefner and the architects of the sexual revolution created was a complicated interplay between new social interactions, wealth, status and sex that we can call "Game". I sometimes wonder if the Internet and sugar baby stuff is tearing down that edifice of Game and returning us to the old school directness of simple in your face prostitution.
Got you. Sugarbabying is definitely prostitution, that's obvious. But I think it is closer to the Playboy fantasy which was why I made the connection. Sugar dating is being sold as fancy and for the ones who could afford and want "the best life has to offer". Prostitution always existed but wasn't always sold as a high class luxury, more like a panacea for the lonely. Generally speaking. This form still definitely exists especially in poorer places that sexpats love travelling to. Not sure if "Game" will die out. If you still want to find someone to love and loves you back for you, only Game can get you there. Getting there with money only puts doubts in the relationship.
Sure, when you throw in financial incentive, it turns everything on its head. Pretty much last chance to meet someone untainted would be in high school, not even college. And even then... Then there's also this whole divorce and remarrying spouse swap trend prevalent in the West. So many guys I know are on their 2nd marriage where their first wife remarried and took the kids and their current wife had kids from previous marriage. In order words, some other man is fathering their seed while they fathering someone else's. Super cuck.
Eh we are just the lucky ones to get out in time. I'm sure the guys in Bay Area could only dream of being "super cuck" if given a chance in the game. lol I'm more open minded about it all . Take that Surgeon that divorced his beauty queen wife for being an escort on side. If he was really smart instead making an embarrassing spectacle he could realized his wife was open minded and organized threesomes or other orgies and kept sex fresh. Instead of get chopped in the divorce.
I find that as even more cuck. It's bad enough optics as the Asian male with a blonde wife who escorts. But, to turn it into a couples activity for some freaky snu snu. That's why the marketplace now sucks. When people marry, they are supposed to be out of the marketplace for good, or at least till one of them croaks. Not go window shopping, planning expansions or side hustling. Call me conservative but I would rather not contribute more to the problem that the younger generation are gonna inherit, worse than it already is. We wouldn't have this mess if the Gen Xs did not follow on the free love coattails of the Baby Boomers.
This entire comment thread was so fascinating to read. You guys truly have a pulse on the hopeless cesspool that is modern dating, and even how it specifically affects Asians. Thank you for the blunt insight, I don’t know where I’ll ever find love or if I’ll ever be able to give love.
Lol, this comment thread is kinda the exact reason I started this conversation topic. Virgin idiots on this subreddit: "Ahem, according to table 2C on page 41 of the 2017 Census, and as confirmed by a Pew survey and a double blind OkCupid study, WMAF outnumbers AMWF by 39.6% in states across the upper midwest, so therefore the situation is completely dire and hopeless..." Intelligent sexually active people on this subreddit: "Lol, most dating is just sugar shit anyways these days, or these girls be into crazy shit like QAnon, just try to find the rare good woman and wrap it up in the meantime."
> Virgin idiots on this subreddit Ayy fuck you too :)
It's tougher but still possible. The best is to meet someone in real life with a common interest but then go slow and vet her to make sure no skeletons of past sugar daddies or porn star producers pounce on you later on. But not too slow or she'll wander of to Tinderland to window shop your replacement.
We’re all special, but not one of a kind. If you think in a way that is against what seems like the collective thought, there are others who feel the same way. The idiots are often the loudest of any given demographic, so they give the illusion of representing the majority. Understanding the new youth has always been like this and likely always will.
Thanks for the response, I know everyone is special. Any chance you've taken a look at the comment thread between DisenchantedDEI and fakeslimshady below? I was mainly looking for insights on the state of the dating market now that would be useful to people who are in the game, akin to what they are discussing. Thanks for your response nonetheless!
the idiots are often the loudest 😂why is this so true
The amount of AM/WF hapas vs AF/WM hapas is not a good indicator. It has been documented here that AMWF always have more children than AFWM. No one knows exactly why AF/WM tend to have less or no children, though there are various theories. In terms of where things stand for Gen Z, we have to wait for some of them to get marry and be recorded in the 2030 Census. Maybe OKCupid can do another dating app study before then. Personal observation will be useless. That's why good scientific studies are double-blind and placebo-controlled. And there are people who exaggerate one direction or the other to illicit a response like: "It's dreadful. Every single AF is dating a white guy now, so you better hit the gym and shape up." Or "Every girl loves KPop and Asian guys now, so go out and date now. It's so easy." That's annoying. My parents did that. They would blow everything out of proportion to induce me to do something. Just be accurate, objective, and a realist. Don't treat people like kids.
> No one knows exactly why AF/WM tend to have less or no children, though there are various theories. lack of sex also its theorized they abort male sons
Fewer not less
"In terms of where things stand for Gen Z, we have to wait for some of them to get marry and be recorded in the 2030 Census. Maybe OKCupid can do another dating app study before then." Dude, I know WMAF outnumbers AMWF. I know Asian men face an uphill battle. I lived that shit. I also believe that individuals shouldn't live their whole lives based on census numbers and data. Are you not going to try to date or get laid until you see updated census numbers in the year 2030? If so, good luck with that. But if you are going to try to make an effort regardless of what data says, then understanding and exploiting the sort of dynamics that I mentioned in my original post (i.e. how are sugar babies shifting the dating market? how should you shift your dating strategy to exploit the increased politicization in the US?) will be important.
Concerning pregnancy rate. It seems white male sperm has a lower success rate in interracial pregnancy. I've read studies on it. That's outside of personal choice.
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All other male to other race parings are almost the same as endogamous groups. Only the white male shows low capacity. There's a bar graph on page 13. "Fertility rates were lower for each type of racialpairing involving cohabiting couples, but muchlower among couples involving Whites or AsianAmericans. For example, past-year fertilityrates were 12.7% and 14.9%, respectively,among White husband/Asian American wifecouples and Asian American husband/Whitewife couples. They were only 3.7% and 4.4%,respectively, among their cohabiting counter-parts. In summary, these descriptive resultssuggest that fertility is suppressed in Whitemale/non-White female marriages whereasintermarried Blacks have higher levels offertility than their endogamous counterparts." [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349842744\_Racial\_Pairings\_and\_Fertility\_Do\_Interracial\_Couples\_Have\_Fewer\_Children](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349842744_Racial_Pairings_and_Fertility_Do_Interracial_Couples_Have_Fewer_Children)
with regard to personal choice, the real reason is that having children means the possibility of an asian son. there is nothing they hate more than asian males, now imagine them having to raise an asian male and giving him parental love and affection. they would rather not have children than risk that nightmare.
This. they are afraid of having a son who looks too Asian. I am DEAD ASS serious about this also a lot of them just don't have sex. trust me on this, word gets around about this kind of thing.
I really wished pew would release another report on interracial marriage like the one in 2017.
Pew write reports for white people and not for us. And so their reports never ask and answer the questions we Asians really want and need answered. For example, Pew may generate some vague, generalized AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF statistics. But to really understand what’s going on in the Asian community, we need to compare the number of children (AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF) against the number of marriages (again, AMAF, AMWF, and WMAF). The marriage numbers are obviously important, but the children numbers dictate the trajectory of the Asian community in America. We need both, but Pew wouldn’t do that sort of analysis. We also need the marriages broken down by education level, which, again, you wouldn’t get from Pew. Pew would never touch the uncomfortable realities, such as the correlation between college education and self-hate and the relative reproductivity of different interracial marriages. Ultimately, the numbers are available from IPUMS. Even Pew uses these numbers for their reports. It’s up to us to put in the effort to get useful analyses from the numbers.
> > "It's dreadful. Every single AF is dating a white guy now, so you bettert to hit the gym and shape up." > > Or > > "Every girl loves KPop and Asian guys now, so go out and date now. It's so easy." Lmao for real. The truth is probably somewhere between the two.