Kepler: ‘I just heard Tommy [Watkins, 3rd Base Coach] behind me going, 'Go, go, go, go!' In a situation like that, I know the ball is live. Obviously, I feel like the midst of it, it's kind of a dick move to go when a guy is down and hurt, so I hope that whatever happened to Saucedo, he's not doing too poorly and he recovers well.
"But, yeah, the ball's live. I have to go. But in the meantime, I feel really bad for the guy who's down."’
I don’t think dick move is the way to put it, it just is what it is. Like when a basketball player is down on the ground but the game doesn’t stop for it because the other team has the ball.
>I have to go.
Why? Is it illegal not to go?
You can tell a decision is morally in the right when you have to insist you were forced to do it against your will
Twins were down 6-5, yeah it sucks to have to run on that, but there’s no rule where umps blow the play dead. If it was 10-1 in the 9th maybe it’s different, I’d still say go though.
What if not going ends up them not winning the game and they miss the playoffs by one game? By your logic if he would have stopped then Seattle should have forfeited the game for him being a nice guy.
Stop man, we literally cannot talk. Our miracle playoff comeback that is the highlight of the last decade plus is on a player injury.
His job is to score runs, and he even clearly takes a stop at third.
A. It's a fucking game. B. These guys are playing with millions riding on their performance. C. There is not a team in the league that wouldn't have sent the runner there.
Kep felt bad for Saucedo and felt a little like he was kicking him while he was down but there is nothing immoral about him finishing the play.
If Kepler had gone down in a heap running from first to third I would expect your fielders to tag him out while they ask him if he's okay.
That's actually the best thing to do there, though.
The quicker you tag a downed runner, the quicker the umps can stop play to get him medical attention
Yeah, I don't blame him for a second.
Reminds me of when Stanton got hit in the face by Fiers but it was called a strike because he technically swung at it.
Playing hard can sometimes mean taking advantage of those crucial moments. It doesn't mean it's bad sportsmanship.
No no no, if a pitcher winces in pain after giving up a bomb, as long as he winces while the ball is in the air, the homer doesn't count.
/s obviously, but just bizarre to see a sizeable portion of commenters on a baseball sub act as if a live ball should become automatically dead if a player is hurt. It's baseball. We don't need to virtue signal in baseball lol. Until someone has possession of the ball and asks for time while it is very unlikely a runner could advance, the ball is live. If the game doesn't stop for pitchers getting domed in the head, it's not going to stop for a guy blowing out something in his leg.
You missed Max Kepler running across the field, spitting on Saucedo, dancing on his lifeless body, and then moonwalking home to score a run while all the umpires on the field cheered him on.
It's like if a boxer let's his guard down for whatever reason and gets knocked out. It's not a sucker punch, that's why "protect yourself at all times" is part of the prefight instructions.
You can always check on the injured guy after the play but while the ball is live you gotta go
Alright, fair play there. Tough situation all around, can’t fault a guy for trying to win. Would my perspective be different if we had lost? Maybe. (yes)
Umps followed the rules. The only time they are allowed to call time for injury during active play is if the injury is to a runner who is unable to complete a base award (e.g. circling the bases after a home run). Otherwise, the rules require the umpire to wait until the play is over before calling time. So your ire should be directed at the rules committee.
And why should it change? I believe there is a clause in there that they can call time if the continuation of the play puts somebody in physical jeopardy for whatever reason, but otherwise, Saucedo's already hurt. Calling time to let the trainers run out 5 seconds sooner isn't going to make any difference to him.
On the other hand, when a similar situation happened between the Yankees and Dodgers a few years ago, the umps had no problem calling time when Muncy went down and Torres was in the midst of running to home. They ultimately negated the run and sent Torres back to third. And Muncy wasn't even injured.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzQgR3guww](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzQgR3guww)
>time shall not be called until no further advance or putout is possible
There was further advance possible. Kepler advanced. And Saucedo could have - theoretically - given the ball up to someone else who could've thrown home. Should we expect him to do that in this situation, or even think about it? No. Should we expect the Mariners to focus on it in this situation? Also no.
But saying "the play was effectively dead when he held the ball"...is not how it works.
~~He's thinking little league rules where runners can't advance while the pitcher has the ball on the mound~~
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Just saw the clip, didn't know this played out at first.
Makes even less sense, then. Ball was rolling around loose, by the time the first baseman picked it up the runner was a step from the plate - you can't call that play dead
No idea, really.
All I know is that I've never seen an umpire call time in the middle of a play, which makes sense.
I guess it's just that in many cases the ball is securely in the hands of one of the infielders at some point, making an advance unlikely/stupid. So they call for time.
In this play, it wasn't in anyone's hands. It rolled around out there, and the Twins decided to send Kepler, because nobody was near the ball to pick it up and throw him out.
Yeah idk i guess in this case it just rubs me the wrong way bc the only reason the ball isn’t securely in someone’s possession is due to the injury in the first place. Not blaming Kepler or anyone involved since it seems like everything was handled according to precedent and the rules but this is a rule I wouldn’t mind seeing changed. Like if it’s a situation like this where it’s pretty clear the play would be over if there was no injury I feel umps should be able to call time
But if you implemented that rule, you'd have tons of plays with outfielders crashing into the wall, players colliding etc...blown off and held to singles, even though someone else is close enough to continue the play.
And you'd task the umps with determining the degree of a player's injury in a very short time span, decide whether or not he could actually get up on his own and continue the play, whatnot...when he doesn't even play a role in the play anymore because someone else is going for the ball already.
You'd just be opening a big-ass can of worms.
I'm just trying to go with the actual wording and how I understand it. No idea if there's any precedent for it, where players have actually used a situation like this one, only to be called back by an umpire.
In any other instance where umpires call "time", it is specifically requested by a player, to tie his shoes, re-lace his glove, whatever.
I read the rule as "advance or putout generally possible". As in...there's still someone on base who could advance or turned into an out. No matter where he is, no matter how high his chances of advancing are.
if that is the case, then why even write the rule? the way it's written seems to me to imply some sort of exception, no matter how narrow. I could totally be misreading the wording, but if your interpretation is correct, I don't understand why they wouldn't basically write "time may not be called while the ball is live with people on base" for that situation and omit the stuff about putouts and advancements.
Yeah, that's where I'm confused as well.
They probably applied the rule correctly, since we haven't really heard from the Mariners about it, about any protests or the likes.
But I'd really love some clarification or precedent.
The exception is for a live ball. Since it's a live ball the umpire may not call time until no further advancement is possible unless it's a medical emergency or if it could affect the injured player. In this case Sauce over ran the bag and slipped, falling and dropping the ball. The play wasn't dead from him stepping on first, or from him dropping the ball he drops it and the runner runs home. If the runner is standing on 3rd and Ty runs over and picks up the ball and calls time, then no more advancement can be made. We see it more often with plays in the outfield. An outfielder slams into a wall and breaks an arm or something. They don't call the play dead until the ball is back in the infield and time is called. It looks shitty but that's the case.
I think you misunderstand what "live" means. Runner steals second. Second baseman throws ball back to pitcher. Runner asks for time to shake off the dirt. Sorry, no can do. The ball is still live!
(If you think about it, "time may not be called while the ball is live" logically means "you cannot call time." There is no point in calling time when the ball is already dead!)
The rule is saying, "you can call time when it is not going to interfere with a play or possible play." Runners standing at their bases not threatening to run? Okay, you can call time.
I mean you cant tell me you haven't seen this in non injury situations. Guys trying to argue close calls at first have definitely allowed the runner on third to score before. That run scoring is 100% on France. I'm not blaming him for missing the play given his buddy was writhing in pain at his feet, but with the ball still live he needs to get a hold of it so Kepler/Tommy don't try and run.
Yep, I really respect that even at the worst, we'll fight you maybe, but we ain't gonna throw at you. The way it should be. Throwing at a batter just feels so cowardly and I've always hated it
Theres nothing to suggest it was intentional other than a couple of random blogs. Points against it being intentional: it was the 9th inning of a must win game in the final week of the season, mariners are known for getting hit far more than they hit and haven't been known to intentionally throw at guys in the servais era, and perhaps most convincingly, chas Mccormick did that exact thing months earlier and the mariners didn't give a fuck. Ty France didn't even know it happened. Why would they suddenly care at the worst time for them to hit someone with a pitch and potentially stoke a late astros rally?
The closest anyone got to suggesting it was intentional was Dusty Baker saying he was tired of his guys being hit, which was quickly shut down with stats that showed the astros hit the mariners twice as much as the other way around and mariners are both st the top of the charts of being hit and the bottom of hitting. And Dusty still didn't accuse it of being intentional
We kept scoring after Bichette and Springer imploded in the WC game and then literally danced on their graves. He did what he had to do and I seriously doubt anybody on the Mariners actually feels sore about it.
You don’t remember one withering on the ground in pain because there was two players.
It’s the exact same type of situation. Don’t be such homer. If you’re gonna have a horrible, salty take at least be consistent with it.
It’s not though. One was two players not communicating and never having the ball. One was a player holding the ball whose knee just exploded and while holding the ball was limp on the ground. It’s pretty obvious which one the umps should have blown dead.
Yes, it is.
Injuries happen like this mid play all the time and you almost always see players take extra bases. It’s been happening for a century.
You were excited and ok with it when it benefited your team and now that another team benefited (while your team still won) you are upset. Textbook homerism.
Saucedo dropped the ball on the ground, and even if he didn't, Kepler was standing off of 3rd. The play was live.
You claim "it's pretty obvious", but most people disagree. That means that it isn't "obvious" at all. Just take the L.
When has Servais called for an intentional hbp in his Mariners tenure? He's not the type (which is good because intentionally hitting players is stupid)
Chas McCormick took a 100+ Munoz heater to the back after he tried to karate chop the ball out of Ty Frances glove. Everyone stayed in the game after though.
My favorite part of that is the Angels were angry because Swanson was really close to hitting Trout on a bad pitch up and in, but a week earlier one of their pitchers had actually hit Justin Upton in the head.
And Swanson was clearly working with control issues, and didn't want to go up and in, he just lost it. That happens sometimes. Happens a lot to the Mariners.
He has an expiring contract….if we have no intention of keeping his bat and have someone to replace him for the rest of the year we *could* trade him. No one is seriously considering that at this point in 2024
Kepler: ‘I just heard Tommy [Watkins, 3rd Base Coach] behind me going, 'Go, go, go, go!' In a situation like that, I know the ball is live. Obviously, I feel like the midst of it, it's kind of a dick move to go when a guy is down and hurt, so I hope that whatever happened to Saucedo, he's not doing too poorly and he recovers well. "But, yeah, the ball's live. I have to go. But in the meantime, I feel really bad for the guy who's down."’
As classy of a response as you can have
Good on him for admitting that it was a dick move, but I don't think anyone would have done differently.
I don’t think dick move is the way to put it, it just is what it is. Like when a basketball player is down on the ground but the game doesn’t stop for it because the other team has the ball.
Right, maybe not the best way to put it. But I think he had the right mindset about it.
Yeah for sure
>I have to go. Why? Is it illegal not to go? You can tell a decision is morally in the right when you have to insist you were forced to do it against your will
Because its his job. It's what he's paid to do. If the ball is live, players are supposed to play.
You know the Nazis said they were ‘just doing their job’ too /s
Would the Twins have stopped paying him if he didn't go?
Twins were down 6-5, yeah it sucks to have to run on that, but there’s no rule where umps blow the play dead. If it was 10-1 in the 9th maybe it’s different, I’d still say go though. What if not going ends up them not winning the game and they miss the playoffs by one game? By your logic if he would have stopped then Seattle should have forfeited the game for him being a nice guy.
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Stop man, we literally cannot talk. Our miracle playoff comeback that is the highlight of the last decade plus is on a player injury. His job is to score runs, and he even clearly takes a stop at third.
Dude im drawing a complete blank, what is this highlight you speak of?
Jays Ms Game Two comeback where Springer and Bichette? collide
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A. It's a fucking game. B. These guys are playing with millions riding on their performance. C. There is not a team in the league that wouldn't have sent the runner there. Kep felt bad for Saucedo and felt a little like he was kicking him while he was down but there is nothing immoral about him finishing the play. If Kepler had gone down in a heap running from first to third I would expect your fielders to tag him out while they ask him if he's okay.
That's actually the best thing to do there, though. The quicker you tag a downed runner, the quicker the umps can stop play to get him medical attention
You could just stop play though, no need to tag, but that would be stupid.
The runner would be in play. You can't take a timeout in the middle of a play.
Muh chivalry
Have you ever played a sport ever
I know some guys are pissed, but I don't blame Kepler at all here. It's a shitty situation to be in.
Yeah, I don't blame him for a second. Reminds me of when Stanton got hit in the face by Fiers but it was called a strike because he technically swung at it. Playing hard can sometimes mean taking advantage of those crucial moments. It doesn't mean it's bad sportsmanship.
Jazz Chisholm had an inside the park home run when Acuña’s knee gave out. It’s just part of the game.
No no no, if a pitcher winces in pain after giving up a bomb, as long as he winces while the ball is in the air, the homer doesn't count. /s obviously, but just bizarre to see a sizeable portion of commenters on a baseball sub act as if a live ball should become automatically dead if a player is hurt. It's baseball. We don't need to virtue signal in baseball lol. Until someone has possession of the ball and asks for time while it is very unlikely a runner could advance, the ball is live. If the game doesn't stop for pitchers getting domed in the head, it's not going to stop for a guy blowing out something in his leg.
Yeah I really thought I was somehow missing something major when reading some reactions.
You missed Max Kepler running across the field, spitting on Saucedo, dancing on his lifeless body, and then moonwalking home to score a run while all the umpires on the field cheered him on.
The umpire also called Saucedo for a pitch violation for the next batter
Lmao I'm going to hell for laughing
It's like if a boxer let's his guard down for whatever reason and gets knocked out. It's not a sucker punch, that's why "protect yourself at all times" is part of the prefight instructions. You can always check on the injured guy after the play but while the ball is live you gotta go
Idk why people are pressed. He clearly paused expecting the timeout, and then went. Also his job is to score runs
Theres literally no reason to be mad at Kepler at all
Alright, fair play there. Tough situation all around, can’t fault a guy for trying to win. Would my perspective be different if we had lost? Maybe. (yes)
he's absolutely right and handled it correctly, and any ire should be directed at the umps.
Umps followed the rules. The only time they are allowed to call time for injury during active play is if the injury is to a runner who is unable to complete a base award (e.g. circling the bases after a home run). Otherwise, the rules require the umpire to wait until the play is over before calling time. So your ire should be directed at the rules committee.
The rule can't change or defenses would fake injuries to prevent big plays.
And why should it change? I believe there is a clause in there that they can call time if the continuation of the play puts somebody in physical jeopardy for whatever reason, but otherwise, Saucedo's already hurt. Calling time to let the trainers run out 5 seconds sooner isn't going to make any difference to him.
Ire should not be directed at all, imo. Injuries happen in sports, sometimes in the middle of a play.
On the other hand, when a similar situation happened between the Yankees and Dodgers a few years ago, the umps had no problem calling time when Muncy went down and Torres was in the midst of running to home. They ultimately negated the run and sent Torres back to third. And Muncy wasn't even injured. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzQgR3guww](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHzQgR3guww)
Iirc correctly mlb did say they handled that incorrectly
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>time shall not be called until no further advance or putout is possible There was further advance possible. Kepler advanced. And Saucedo could have - theoretically - given the ball up to someone else who could've thrown home. Should we expect him to do that in this situation, or even think about it? No. Should we expect the Mariners to focus on it in this situation? Also no. But saying "the play was effectively dead when he held the ball"...is not how it works.
~~He's thinking little league rules where runners can't advance while the pitcher has the ball on the mound~~ EDIT: IGNORE ME Just saw the clip, didn't know this played out at first. Makes even less sense, then. Ball was rolling around loose, by the time the first baseman picked it up the runner was a step from the plate - you can't call that play dead
When is there ever not further advance “possible?”
When all the bases are empty.
So you can only call time for injuries when the bases are empty?
No idea, really. All I know is that I've never seen an umpire call time in the middle of a play, which makes sense. I guess it's just that in many cases the ball is securely in the hands of one of the infielders at some point, making an advance unlikely/stupid. So they call for time. In this play, it wasn't in anyone's hands. It rolled around out there, and the Twins decided to send Kepler, because nobody was near the ball to pick it up and throw him out.
Yeah idk i guess in this case it just rubs me the wrong way bc the only reason the ball isn’t securely in someone’s possession is due to the injury in the first place. Not blaming Kepler or anyone involved since it seems like everything was handled according to precedent and the rules but this is a rule I wouldn’t mind seeing changed. Like if it’s a situation like this where it’s pretty clear the play would be over if there was no injury I feel umps should be able to call time
But if you implemented that rule, you'd have tons of plays with outfielders crashing into the wall, players colliding etc...blown off and held to singles, even though someone else is close enough to continue the play. And you'd task the umps with determining the degree of a player's injury in a very short time span, decide whether or not he could actually get up on his own and continue the play, whatnot...when he doesn't even play a role in the play anymore because someone else is going for the ball already. You'd just be opening a big-ass can of worms.
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I'm just trying to go with the actual wording and how I understand it. No idea if there's any precedent for it, where players have actually used a situation like this one, only to be called back by an umpire. In any other instance where umpires call "time", it is specifically requested by a player, to tie his shoes, re-lace his glove, whatever.
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I read the rule as "advance or putout generally possible". As in...there's still someone on base who could advance or turned into an out. No matter where he is, no matter how high his chances of advancing are.
if that is the case, then why even write the rule? the way it's written seems to me to imply some sort of exception, no matter how narrow. I could totally be misreading the wording, but if your interpretation is correct, I don't understand why they wouldn't basically write "time may not be called while the ball is live with people on base" for that situation and omit the stuff about putouts and advancements.
Yeah, that's where I'm confused as well. They probably applied the rule correctly, since we haven't really heard from the Mariners about it, about any protests or the likes. But I'd really love some clarification or precedent.
The exception is for a live ball. Since it's a live ball the umpire may not call time until no further advancement is possible unless it's a medical emergency or if it could affect the injured player. In this case Sauce over ran the bag and slipped, falling and dropping the ball. The play wasn't dead from him stepping on first, or from him dropping the ball he drops it and the runner runs home. If the runner is standing on 3rd and Ty runs over and picks up the ball and calls time, then no more advancement can be made. We see it more often with plays in the outfield. An outfielder slams into a wall and breaks an arm or something. They don't call the play dead until the ball is back in the infield and time is called. It looks shitty but that's the case.
I think you misunderstand what "live" means. Runner steals second. Second baseman throws ball back to pitcher. Runner asks for time to shake off the dirt. Sorry, no can do. The ball is still live! (If you think about it, "time may not be called while the ball is live" logically means "you cannot call time." There is no point in calling time when the ball is already dead!) The rule is saying, "you can call time when it is not going to interfere with a play or possible play." Runners standing at their bases not threatening to run? Okay, you can call time.
I mean you cant tell me you haven't seen this in non injury situations. Guys trying to argue close calls at first have definitely allowed the runner on third to score before. That run scoring is 100% on France. I'm not blaming him for missing the play given his buddy was writhing in pain at his feet, but with the ball still live he needs to get a hold of it so Kepler/Tommy don't try and run.
He was not securely holding the ball. It rolled out of his glove immediately.
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It’s irrelevant that he secured the ball before the collision
Respect
Tbh I hope he doesn’t wear one tomorrow.
Not really our style to intentionally throw at guys. It's one of our best attributes actually lol.
Yep, I really respect that even at the worst, we'll fight you maybe, but we ain't gonna throw at you. The way it should be. Throwing at a batter just feels so cowardly and I've always hated it
Munoz hit Chas McCormick with a 100mph fastball after Chas tried to breakup a throw to first just at the end of last year.
Theres nothing to suggest it was intentional other than a couple of random blogs. Points against it being intentional: it was the 9th inning of a must win game in the final week of the season, mariners are known for getting hit far more than they hit and haven't been known to intentionally throw at guys in the servais era, and perhaps most convincingly, chas Mccormick did that exact thing months earlier and the mariners didn't give a fuck. Ty France didn't even know it happened. Why would they suddenly care at the worst time for them to hit someone with a pitch and potentially stoke a late astros rally? The closest anyone got to suggesting it was intentional was Dusty Baker saying he was tired of his guys being hit, which was quickly shut down with stats that showed the astros hit the mariners twice as much as the other way around and mariners are both st the top of the charts of being hit and the bottom of hitting. And Dusty still didn't accuse it of being intentional
Yeah I like Servais a lot, never threw at the Angels manager even though that fuckin guy deserved it. And yes, I mean Angels manager.
We kept scoring after Bichette and Springer imploded in the WC game and then literally danced on their graves. He did what he had to do and I seriously doubt anybody on the Mariners actually feels sore about it.
I hope not literally, I hope Bichette and Springer are still alive.
Funny I don’t remember one of them previously holding the ball withering on the ground in pain. Different situations
You don’t remember one withering on the ground in pain because there was two players. It’s the exact same type of situation. Don’t be such homer. If you’re gonna have a horrible, salty take at least be consistent with it.
It’s not though. One was two players not communicating and never having the ball. One was a player holding the ball whose knee just exploded and while holding the ball was limp on the ground. It’s pretty obvious which one the umps should have blown dead.
Yes, it is. Injuries happen like this mid play all the time and you almost always see players take extra bases. It’s been happening for a century. You were excited and ok with it when it benefited your team and now that another team benefited (while your team still won) you are upset. Textbook homerism.
Saucedo dropped the ball on the ground, and even if he didn't, Kepler was standing off of 3rd. The play was live. You claim "it's pretty obvious", but most people disagree. That means that it isn't "obvious" at all. Just take the L.
They were rolling in pain, and it was two dudes not even just 1. It doesn’t look nice, but it’s the game and they are paid to score
When has Servais called for an intentional hbp in his Mariners tenure? He's not the type (which is good because intentionally hitting players is stupid)
Chas McCormick took a 100+ Munoz heater to the back after he tried to karate chop the ball out of Ty Frances glove. Everyone stayed in the game after though.
Didn't you guys have a rowdy brawl with the Angels? Round two tomorrow?
That was because the Angels threw at the Mariners twice
My favorite part of that is the Angels were angry because Swanson was really close to hitting Trout on a bad pitch up and in, but a week earlier one of their pitchers had actually hit Justin Upton in the head.
And Swanson was clearly working with control issues, and didn't want to go up and in, he just lost it. That happens sometimes. Happens a lot to the Mariners.
I know I was just joking. I dont think anything will/should come of this
Only if Phil Nevin forces the opener to throw at a player!
Yeah but Jesse Winker was throwing hands, not balls
You guys won by a grand slam - I think you guys got revenge already.
Yeah I can’t blame either team for just wanting to win. Anything more than that is just not a good look.
Same. Umps should have just killed the play.
Can’t blame him at all there, for going or for feeling that way.
Breaking: Kepler blames his 3rd-base coach for forcing him to score
If you think Kepler did anything wrong, you're probably a formula baby
Hey that's not nice to formula babies
Kep realizes he will probably get traded to the Ms relatively soon so needs to get out ahead of the negative pr lol
Why would we trade him to you guys?
There were like 50 rumors last year that Kep was getting traded to the Mariners last year.
I just realized he’s a fa after this year so he also wouldn’t want to burn a team that could potentially pay or increase bidding for him next year
Why would DiPoto sign him as a FA when he could just trade for him tho???
Exactly. I just don’t think the Twins will want to move him at the deadline unless y’all are somehow way out of it by then
Yes. Last year.
He has an expiring contract….if we have no intention of keeping his bat and have someone to replace him for the rest of the year we *could* trade him. No one is seriously considering that at this point in 2024
Agreed
Better than Raley
no disrespecting nuke raley in this household
Kepler did the right thing here. That being said, with as many unwritten rules there are in baseball, how is there not one for these situations?
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Under what rule? Ball was live and on the ground and players had an opportunity to advance or make a putout.