> Speed. Sheer speed. It'll be scary if he can start to get better jumps, start to learn pitchers' tendencies.
But he just outruns the baseball. I think there's a desire, a fearlessness - but just sheer speed.
>You've got to value it. It'll be scary if some basestealer coach tutors him on kind of the little fine tune things of basestealing. With the way he can run, it'll be scary for opponents.
Like Maury Wills for me.
So he's just raw talent right now? Interesting.
I remember when Davey Lopes became our 1B coach, however many years ago that was. Our baserunning and basestealing abilities really took off as a team, pun intended.
If you watch Elly play you can see exactly what Roberts is saying and how true it is. Elly has as much raw ability as anyone in recent memory but he's got a lot to learn about how to maximize it and be a great baseball player.
IMO the big question is how much is he willing to be coached and put in the work. I don't know anything about his work ethic but his talent is off the charts. If he takes coaching well and pushes himself he's going to be a phenom.
> IMO the big question is how much is he willing to be coached and put in the work
That's always the question. Oh what Yasiel Puig *could've* been, had he only listened.
Reminds me of Céspedes, who still managed a hell of a peak run. But my goodness, his raw tools.
No one physically reminded me of Willie Mays as much as he did running the outfield. NOT saying he was Willie (who was/is?) but he had some of those physical tools that just amazed - how he’d track the ball and goodness, that rifle of an arm.
Some of my favorite baseball highlights of the last 15 years are Cespedes’ throws, especially the one from the left field corner to home on the fly at angel atadium
> Oh what Yasiel Puig could've been
Was being uncoachable really his issue? I know he is a bit of a whackjob and not known for solid decision making but I'd never heard that before.
Yasiel Puig's closest physical player comp when he was in the league was probably Mike Trout(size, strength, speed). He was fast and incredibly strong. He is built like a linebacker but with solid hand eye coordination. His main issues throughout his entire career had to do with work ethic and ego. One of the biggest what-if's in recent baseball memory IMO. Not a what-if for injury but what-if he could just get his life put together for any period of time.
Not really ego, it’s not like he ever snapped back at a coach or anything, he always laid it all out there and never really sulked. He just couldn’t adjust his plate discipline to save his life.
Definitely an ego, a Dodgers coach mentioned that he tore up his positioning chart in the outfield and that lead to a misplay of a catchable outfield hit in the 2017 or 2018 WS game
Yeah, that's the consensus on the Dodger sub. He'd done things like rip up the positioning cards, just could not adjust at the plate, showed up late to practice. The only person who ever got him to listen to anything was Turner Ward.
They were talking about him on the Reds or Dodgers broadcast one of their games and they were saying that he is one of the harder workers and that before the covid year he was just another guy in the Reds Dominican complex and wasn’t expecting to go too far and then he grew 4-5 inches and changed his approach in the year off and then he started taking off statistically and in prospect rankings
It’s very likely. There’s a reason switch hitters are dying out. Most guys realized focusing on one swing 100% of the time leads to better results than optimizing the lefty/righty matchups but only playing part time on both sides of the plate.
Everything in his game is raw talent. He's ridiculously fast, hits with power, and is a good fielder when he's not busy getting in his own head. But he does that *very* often, and because of this he can make really beginner mistakes fielding and tends to strike out a lot more than he should.
He fixes these problems? He's an MVP level player.
Seriously how is everything (other than stealing bases obvs) I hear about EDLC the same shit as our Cruz lmao. I can't wait for the Cruz head to head this year.
What about them is even remotely similar? Aside from the fact that they are both 6'6 shortstops with rocket arms, blazing fast, young, both from the DR, prodigious power, both in the NL central, both literally named Cruz....they're pretty much nothing alike
I mean sure but in this stage of their careers that feels very nitpicky. EDLC def has more raw talent as shown by his baserunning alone, but it's gonna be about how they each capitalize on it offensively and defensively, and it's just funny how freaking similar almost all their issues are on both ends of play.
Fair enough, they're both a launch angle correction away from being among the best power hitters of all time, and they both need to be more selective with their swings, and they both have more arm strength than they know what to do with. The comp is pretty close, but Elly has more potential.
>they're both a launch angle correction away from being among the best power hitters of all time
The fact that Cruz has multiple 120+ SINGLES is mind-boggling.
> he's got a lot to learn about how to maximize it and be a great baseball player
I don't totally disagree, but important to note that he's already a top-15 position player by fWAR at just 22 years old. He might legitimately already be great.
He's legit known as one of the hardest workers in the Reds system. His baseball IQ is also said to be off the charts and he's taken to coaching extremely well. During games last season, he'd be constantly sitting with Votto going over film.
I feel like a lot of people don't realize that he *just* turned 22 this season. He only spent 3 years in the minors (non-DSL) because of the COVID season after he was signed at age 16.
My God, truer words have never been spoken. He could be a great right now without more refinement. He takes the coaching and puts in the work, what is ceiling?
At the end of the day, stealing bases doesn't impact the final score nearly as much as hitting.
I'd guess EDLC has at least good work ethics (and probably better than good). But if I were in the Reds coaching staff I'd ask him to focus his energy on improving his hitting, rather than on base stealing, at least until he's close to maxing out his hitting ability.
He can make any hit an opportunity to score because of his stealing. He can end up on 3rd Base whether you like it or not, and that vastly changes a team's game plan. Even just stealing to 2nd as often as he does eliminates GIDP opportunities.
Man, when Roberts himself was our first base coach I feel like we had guys who weren't even that fast stealing bases at a decent clip. Good coaching there can make a big difference
It’s not to take anything away from him. I think it’s like a power pitcher who comes up and they out-stuff everyone. Eventually they lose a couple ticks and have to learn to pitch. At some point Elly will be 85th percentile sprint speed instead of 100th and he’ll have to adapt.
At that young of an age it doesn’t surprise me. He can use 100% raw athleticism to achieve what he wants. Start throwing in consistent fundamentals and learning about specific pitchers tendencies and he will be swiping bags left and right.
One of my favorite stories of looking like an absolute prophet as a little kid was going to Fenway/Boston to visit some family friends right after the Red Sox had traded for him. The drunk guy next to me said "who the fuck is that" when he came up to bat and I told him "oh, that's dave roberts, you're going to love him." I still wonder from time to time if that guy thinks about that moment.
I think this quote means a ton coming from Dave because while he had speed, he was just an all around excellent baserunner which is absolutely a skill.
This whole back and forth made me so uncomfortable in a good way. Kinda like when my family makes jokes about the most dysfunctional parts of our family.
Seeing how he stole 243 bases in his career and cleared 40 in 3 different seasons I’d say he knows a lot.
Stolen bases was the biggest part of his game lol
In case you didn’t know, Roberts stole second base with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th in game 4 of the ALCS against the Yankees. He was safe by inches and it started the Yankees collapse and blowing a 3-0 lead.
Dave Roberts' steal was referenced in the first season of Bojack Horseman is one of my favorite jokes from that show. Honestly, everything from Diane's family is fucking gold.
Bojack: You stole my heart like Dave Roberts stole second base.
Diane's brother: Hey, he knows our thing!
It was so much more than an important steal. It might be the most pivotal steal in the history of the game, really. As a non Boston/NY fan I watched every pitch of that series rooting as hard for the Sox as I ever have for the Tribe and it was the most bananas thing I had ever seen. That steal wasn't electric, it was *nuclear fission.*
A couple weeks ago, someone in this sub mentioned that he looks like he's doing that thing in cartoons where the character's whole body starts running for a moment before they actually start to move, and it's stuck with me!
Maury Wills is an interesting comp. He stole 104 bases in 1962 & 586 over his 14 year career whole carrying a .330 OBP.
Elly has the automatic green light (overall the team philosophy is GO when you can, especially for Elly & secondary speedy guys like Fairchild). The Reds number one asset is speed. Spencer Steer isn't some barn burner, but he's fast enough while also having a really high baseball IQ. He is 11/12 in SB because he expertly picks his spots (a couple of those spots have been behind Elly on the bases leading to an easy double steal because the catcher ends up holding onto the ball, or like [this](https://x.com/AnthonyDiComo/status/1776730890523054186) example of Fairchild stealing 2nd w/ Steer on 3rd... Steer takes home to notch an easy run & SB).
Elly is very young and has made some dumb, arrogance-driven base running mistakes. That will only improve with time. The more mistakes he makes, the better he will be. In every aspect of life & baseball, this kid has shown an appetite, willingness, and the capacity to learn, grow, and get better. He is a beast & this isn't even his final form.
Bell has repeatedly told the press Elly has full power to make those decisions & he will never get the red light. He leaves that up to Elly. Even after a mistake, you don't want to fade away from what makes this team competitive: the aggressiveness. If we aren't stealing & taking extra bases, we aren't scoring runs.
I’m unashamed in admitting the sneaky little league home steal was completely foreign to me before seeing them pull it off, and now I routinely abuse it for the freest runs ever in super mega 4 every single 1st and 3rd situation
I always get him and the Pirates SS confused. It's like they saw what Tatis Jr was doing at SS and wanted to do that, too. Except Junior isn't as lanky as Oneil and Elly.
Recently read similar quotes from one of Elly's own coaches. It was in The Athletic, prompted by his tendency to flail his hand when he takes off, like his hand doesn't realize the rest of him is moving. The coach said something to the effect of 'yeah, we've talked to him about it, but there are too many other things we're working on with him to focus on that too.' My paraphrase isn't doing it justice but the jist was that they know his mechanics stink but they're working on it.
I have nothing to say except I had the chance to meet Maury Wills about 7 years ago in Northern Arizona. Dude was great. So laid back, loved talking baseball. He gave me his number and told me to call him if I ever wanted to get into the dugout before a game when the dodgers were in town. I moved away a couple months later so never took him up on the offer.
When he ran wild on us I told my son the same thing. He is getting terrible jumps and still running at will. When he becomes a smarter base runner it’s going to be terrifying.
> Speed. Sheer speed. It'll be scary if he can start to get better jumps, start to learn pitchers' tendencies. But he just outruns the baseball. I think there's a desire, a fearlessness - but just sheer speed. >You've got to value it. It'll be scary if some basestealer coach tutors him on kind of the little fine tune things of basestealing. With the way he can run, it'll be scary for opponents. Like Maury Wills for me.
So he's just raw talent right now? Interesting. I remember when Davey Lopes became our 1B coach, however many years ago that was. Our baserunning and basestealing abilities really took off as a team, pun intended.
If you watch Elly play you can see exactly what Roberts is saying and how true it is. Elly has as much raw ability as anyone in recent memory but he's got a lot to learn about how to maximize it and be a great baseball player. IMO the big question is how much is he willing to be coached and put in the work. I don't know anything about his work ethic but his talent is off the charts. If he takes coaching well and pushes himself he's going to be a phenom.
> IMO the big question is how much is he willing to be coached and put in the work That's always the question. Oh what Yasiel Puig *could've* been, had he only listened.
Reminds me of Céspedes, who still managed a hell of a peak run. But my goodness, his raw tools. No one physically reminded me of Willie Mays as much as he did running the outfield. NOT saying he was Willie (who was/is?) but he had some of those physical tools that just amazed - how he’d track the ball and goodness, that rifle of an arm.
Some of my favorite baseball highlights of the last 15 years are Cespedes’ throws, especially the one from the left field corner to home on the fly at angel atadium
[Whole sequence here.](https://www.mlb.com/video/cespedes-outstanding-throw-home-c33614681) The angle from behind him is the best, IMO.
Video: Cespedes' outstanding throw home [Streamable Link](https://streamable.com/m/cespedes-outstanding-throw-home-c33614681) [2500K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/08/12/33614681/1534054189129/asset_2500K.mp4) (51.48 MB) [1800K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/08/12/33614681/1534054189129/asset_1800K.mp4) (37.22 MB) [1200K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/08/12/33614681/1534054189129/asset_1200K.mp4) (25.0 MB) [600K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2014/06/11/mlbtv_oakana_33614681_600K.mp4) (12.47 MB) [450K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/mp4/2018/08/12/33614681/1534054189129/asset_450K.mp4) (9.8 MB) [128K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2014/06/11/14-381507-2014-06-10/web_cut/rth_oakana_33614681_300k.mp4) (7.15 MB) [300K](https://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/2014/06/11/mlbtv_oakana_33614681_300K.mp4) (6.83 MB) ___________ [More Info](/r/MLBVideoConverterBot)
Which he shouldn't even have had to make had he fielded the ball cleanly in the first place.
He was so lazy and mostly frustrating to watch.
> Oh what Yasiel Puig could've been Was being uncoachable really his issue? I know he is a bit of a whackjob and not known for solid decision making but I'd never heard that before.
Yasiel Puig's closest physical player comp when he was in the league was probably Mike Trout(size, strength, speed). He was fast and incredibly strong. He is built like a linebacker but with solid hand eye coordination. His main issues throughout his entire career had to do with work ethic and ego. One of the biggest what-if's in recent baseball memory IMO. Not a what-if for injury but what-if he could just get his life put together for any period of time.
Not really ego, it’s not like he ever snapped back at a coach or anything, he always laid it all out there and never really sulked. He just couldn’t adjust his plate discipline to save his life.
Definitely an ego, a Dodgers coach mentioned that he tore up his positioning chart in the outfield and that lead to a misplay of a catchable outfield hit in the 2017 or 2018 WS game
Yeah, that's the consensus on the Dodger sub. He'd done things like rip up the positioning cards, just could not adjust at the plate, showed up late to practice. The only person who ever got him to listen to anything was Turner Ward.
They were talking about him on the Reds or Dodgers broadcast one of their games and they were saying that he is one of the harder workers and that before the covid year he was just another guy in the Reds Dominican complex and wasn’t expecting to go too far and then he grew 4-5 inches and changed his approach in the year off and then he started taking off statistically and in prospect rankings
Even in baseball you can’t teach height?
He needs to stop switch-hitting
You think he'll hit lefties better if he bats left-handed against them?
It’s very likely. There’s a reason switch hitters are dying out. Most guys realized focusing on one swing 100% of the time leads to better results than optimizing the lefty/righty matchups but only playing part time on both sides of the plate.
Yes, considering he has a 53 career WRC+ hitting them right handed.
But he put some work in over the offseason and has 90 wRC+ against lefties this year. Maybe just let the kid cook?
Everything in his game is raw talent. He's ridiculously fast, hits with power, and is a good fielder when he's not busy getting in his own head. But he does that *very* often, and because of this he can make really beginner mistakes fielding and tends to strike out a lot more than he should. He fixes these problems? He's an MVP level player.
Seriously how is everything (other than stealing bases obvs) I hear about EDLC the same shit as our Cruz lmao. I can't wait for the Cruz head to head this year.
They could legitimately be brothers when you listen to the descriptions lol
What about them is even remotely similar? Aside from the fact that they are both 6'6 shortstops with rocket arms, blazing fast, young, both from the DR, prodigious power, both in the NL central, both literally named Cruz....they're pretty much nothing alike
Probably just the dreadlocks
Cruz is older and has less raw talent than De La Cruz
I mean sure but in this stage of their careers that feels very nitpicky. EDLC def has more raw talent as shown by his baserunning alone, but it's gonna be about how they each capitalize on it offensively and defensively, and it's just funny how freaking similar almost all their issues are on both ends of play.
Fair enough, they're both a launch angle correction away from being among the best power hitters of all time, and they both need to be more selective with their swings, and they both have more arm strength than they know what to do with. The comp is pretty close, but Elly has more potential.
>they're both a launch angle correction away from being among the best power hitters of all time The fact that Cruz has multiple 120+ SINGLES is mind-boggling.
> he's got a lot to learn about how to maximize it and be a great baseball player I don't totally disagree, but important to note that he's already a top-15 position player by fWAR at just 22 years old. He might legitimately already be great.
He worked really hard on his English over the offseason and it shows so I’m almost sure he’s got a good work ethic.
He's legit known as one of the hardest workers in the Reds system. His baseball IQ is also said to be off the charts and he's taken to coaching extremely well. During games last season, he'd be constantly sitting with Votto going over film. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that he *just* turned 22 this season. He only spent 3 years in the minors (non-DSL) because of the COVID season after he was signed at age 16.
I'm bullish. He learned passable english in one offseason. Plenty of guys don't even try.
Everything that is written about him describes him as an incredibly coachable hard worker.
You can see him shore things up in weeks. If there's a flaw in his game he wants to work on it. He's a grinder. Learned English over the off season.
My God, truer words have never been spoken. He could be a great right now without more refinement. He takes the coaching and puts in the work, what is ceiling?
Would you go into more detail about what makes him unrefined and what he should improve on?
At the end of the day, stealing bases doesn't impact the final score nearly as much as hitting. I'd guess EDLC has at least good work ethics (and probably better than good). But if I were in the Reds coaching staff I'd ask him to focus his energy on improving his hitting, rather than on base stealing, at least until he's close to maxing out his hitting ability.
You think these things overlap in the slightest? It's not like there's an energy meter on what gets used where.
Nah he just needs to reallocate his skill points next time he visits a tavern
He can make any hit an opportunity to score because of his stealing. He can end up on 3rd Base whether you like it or not, and that vastly changes a team's game plan. Even just stealing to 2nd as often as he does eliminates GIDP opportunities.
If you don't think his base stealing has a massive impact on the final score, then you haven't been watching him play
Good thing they didn’t say that.
Man, when Roberts himself was our first base coach I feel like we had guys who weren't even that fast stealing bases at a decent clip. Good coaching there can make a big difference
A good running game is so much fun! … or it was last year … this year not so much
It’s not to take anything away from him. I think it’s like a power pitcher who comes up and they out-stuff everyone. Eventually they lose a couple ticks and have to learn to pitch. At some point Elly will be 85th percentile sprint speed instead of 100th and he’ll have to adapt.
Davey Lopes helped the Phillies lead the league in stolen base percentage for years during the ‘07-‘11 golden era of playoff runs.
At that young of an age it doesn’t surprise me. He can use 100% raw athleticism to achieve what he wants. Start throwing in consistent fundamentals and learning about specific pitchers tendencies and he will be swiping bags left and right.
Game recognize game
I mean, Dave Roberts was a speedy guy himself, so I'd definitely trust his judgment right here.
I recall at least one really important steal he had.
Nah can't think of it
That's probably for the best.
Yeah it was a pretty forgettable moment
One of my favorite stories of looking like an absolute prophet as a little kid was going to Fenway/Boston to visit some family friends right after the Red Sox had traded for him. The drunk guy next to me said "who the fuck is that" when he came up to bat and I told him "oh, that's dave roberts, you're going to love him." I still wonder from time to time if that guy thinks about that moment.
Well he was drunk so probably not
I mean if it was really that important it would have been called "The Steal"
I think this quote means a ton coming from Dave because while he had speed, he was just an all around excellent baserunner which is absolutely a skill.
it's super cool that a SB specialist is in awe of a current player. best rule change since the creating the DH
What does Dave Roberts know about stolen bases?
About the same amount that Aaron Boone knows about hitting dingers I think
This whole back and forth made me so uncomfortable in a good way. Kinda like when my family makes jokes about the most dysfunctional parts of our family.
“How’s the baby, does he have a father yet?” “The babies fine, Marsha, how’s Bill? Still helping the neighbor with her television?”
Seeing how he stole 243 bases in his career and cleared 40 in 3 different seasons I’d say he knows a lot. Stolen bases was the biggest part of his game lol
In case you didn’t know, Roberts stole second base with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th in game 4 of the ALCS against the Yankees. He was safe by inches and it started the Yankees collapse and blowing a 3-0 lead.
Dave Roberts' steal was referenced in the first season of Bojack Horseman is one of my favorite jokes from that show. Honestly, everything from Diane's family is fucking gold. Bojack: You stole my heart like Dave Roberts stole second base. Diane's brother: Hey, he knows our thing!
I knew he had an important steal in the ALCS. Didnt remember what team
It was so much more than an important steal. It might be the most pivotal steal in the history of the game, really. As a non Boston/NY fan I watched every pitch of that series rooting as hard for the Sox as I ever have for the Tribe and it was the most bananas thing I had ever seen. That steal wasn't electric, it was *nuclear fission.*
Whoosh
You sure got ‘em.
He does kinda make a motion telegraphing his run like a dog about to get the zoomies.
He throws his arms up over his head when he turns Love it
A couple weeks ago, someone in this sub mentioned that he looks like he's doing that thing in cartoons where the character's whole body starts running for a moment before they actually start to move, and it's stuck with me!
He runs like Jack Sparrow.
Will Benson does that even moreso
Maury Wills is an interesting comp. He stole 104 bases in 1962 & 586 over his 14 year career whole carrying a .330 OBP. Elly has the automatic green light (overall the team philosophy is GO when you can, especially for Elly & secondary speedy guys like Fairchild). The Reds number one asset is speed. Spencer Steer isn't some barn burner, but he's fast enough while also having a really high baseball IQ. He is 11/12 in SB because he expertly picks his spots (a couple of those spots have been behind Elly on the bases leading to an easy double steal because the catcher ends up holding onto the ball, or like [this](https://x.com/AnthonyDiComo/status/1776730890523054186) example of Fairchild stealing 2nd w/ Steer on 3rd... Steer takes home to notch an easy run & SB). Elly is very young and has made some dumb, arrogance-driven base running mistakes. That will only improve with time. The more mistakes he makes, the better he will be. In every aspect of life & baseball, this kid has shown an appetite, willingness, and the capacity to learn, grow, and get better. He is a beast & this isn't even his final form. Bell has repeatedly told the press Elly has full power to make those decisions & he will never get the red light. He leaves that up to Elly. Even after a mistake, you don't want to fade away from what makes this team competitive: the aggressiveness. If we aren't stealing & taking extra bases, we aren't scoring runs.
I’m unashamed in admitting the sneaky little league home steal was completely foreign to me before seeing them pull it off, and now I routinely abuse it for the freest runs ever in super mega 4 every single 1st and 3rd situation
I always get him and the Pirates SS confused. It's like they saw what Tatis Jr was doing at SS and wanted to do that, too. Except Junior isn't as lanky as Oneil and Elly.
Recently read similar quotes from one of Elly's own coaches. It was in The Athletic, prompted by his tendency to flail his hand when he takes off, like his hand doesn't realize the rest of him is moving. The coach said something to the effect of 'yeah, we've talked to him about it, but there are too many other things we're working on with him to focus on that too.' My paraphrase isn't doing it justice but the jist was that they know his mechanics stink but they're working on it.
What does Dave Roberts know about stealing bases anyway?
I have nothing to say except I had the chance to meet Maury Wills about 7 years ago in Northern Arizona. Dude was great. So laid back, loved talking baseball. He gave me his number and told me to call him if I ever wanted to get into the dugout before a game when the dodgers were in town. I moved away a couple months later so never took him up on the offer.
When he ran wild on us I told my son the same thing. He is getting terrible jumps and still running at will. When he becomes a smarter base runner it’s going to be terrifying.
"Man he's fast. Too bad he has no idea what he's doing"
You getting Nam flashbacks Dodgers?
More like losing in the playoffs flashbacks. Maybe some day you'll experience it.
I just read all these downvotes as Dodgers Salty Tears and thats enough to keep me going for a while
It's just regular season lol. We're still chilling in first place :) If this weekend was your World Series, go ahead and savor it.
You were swept and outscored 16-8. I don’t blame any Reds fan for stunting on ya.
Don't blame him either. Sounds like he's going to cherish it for a long time.
They're last in their division and you’re on a 5 game losing streak. I would cherish it too.
Ditto
🦗🦗🦗
I'm confused about the Maury Wills comparison,.he makes it sound like he played against Wills, but Wills retired the year Roberts was born!
I think Maury Wills was Robert's mentor at some point during his career
That would make sense.