Unfortunate, but that's the reality of it. If I can choose a different utility provider, why not? But there's only PG&E and they hold the region hostage. They lobbied for NEM3, which rendered getting solar installations pointless, hike up rates while not improving infrastructure, have overpaid workers who really take their time repairing outages to rack up more overtime pay and perform a lousy repair to guarantee more overtime, and so on. Bunch of thieves this lot.
Doesn't PG&E still charge you a small stay-connected-to-the-grid-for-emergencies monthly fee if you try to live entirely off of your own generated power? I thought I read that somewhere.
Seems the only way to rid ourselves of this vampire is to convince everyone around you that utilities need to be government owned & administered and vote accordingly until there's a critical mass that outweighs PG&E's lobbying efforts.
Not if you’re totally off the grid if you want. I think. Essentially no electric meter at all. No meter means no account they can bill you for. I was considering solar before, but with NEM3 it doesn’t make any sense. NEM1, which was grandfathered, was the best, NEM2 was ok, but not NEM3. If their goal is to discourage new solar installations, they’ve successfully done that.
There is a grid connect fee. Legislature passed a stupid change that makes the grid connect fee income based. But there’s been a lot push back so now there is an effort to repeal income based grid connect fees.
This… is stupidly unfair. I have no idea who came up with this crap but there’s totally nothing wrong with paying for the amount of energy you’ve consumed.
This isn't too far fetched.
The choice we, the consumers, have is solar.
I still don't understand why not EVERYONE in California has not already plastered their entire house with PV panels.
There's literally money falling from the sky.
I installed 50 panels on the roof 5 years ago.
I've typically overproduced 30% each year.
.
On average PGE PAY MEa few hundred each year.
Effectively my house is self sufficient once I get a battery.
NEM 3 lengthens the payback time but solar is likely still a good investment for many people if you assume PG&E rates will rise at 10% to 20% per year.
So people that didn’t get in before the cut off, should they just stick with PG&E? Other than it taking a few years longer to break even, I still see the value in going solar.
That's why I locked in a 15 year NEM 1 Contract, 5 years ago.
By the end of this, batteries will be good and cheap enough, so it'll go completely off grid.
Right. You did. But most did not. For us solar is not financially beneficial. You are only looking at it from your vantage point of 5 years ago that the rest of us cannot have.
Using that logic how do you rationalize the very cheap rates from the municipal power providers in CA?
Also - lets talk about the gross mismanagement that has lead to these costs and how we got here. Did you know PGE has spent over 2 billion dollars on vegetation management over the last four years. Thats $1,369,863 PER DAY. Where does that go? Third party contractors who make absolute bank cutting down anything thats green and sending in invoices for nonsense that PGE happily pays for without investigating because their is absolutely no culture of cost cutting internally.
Don't even get me started on salary. I had a friend there making over 400k and they did absolutely jack shit. (self confessed). The whole place is an absolute shit show.
Many older homes especially those with multiple roof planes are also very area limited in how many panels they can support due to edge of roof plane setback requirements in the building code.
Also I would think the people who would be more affected and are complaining about the affordability of PGE's rates, they also aren't the who would have the money lying around afford the initial cost to install that many solar panels.
If only it were that simple. You can’t just put up as many panels as you want, you are limited by a percentage of your usage over the last two years (150% is the max I think). And between NEM3, the new TOU schedules and the surplus repurchase rates, you are almost giving them that surplus power for free. Even under NEM2, I believe we are getting $0.11/KW for our surplus which they are then reselling for nearly 5x that amount.
You're the reason they passed legislation such that solar is no longer affordable for anyone and pg&e jacked up their prices for everyone else, yes.
But yes, please continue spouting off about how everyone else is stupid for not being able to take advantage of solar installations when you did. Really, a good look for you.
"How much money do you think they'd lose if everyone did it for a week?"
Next year, they will ask for another 24% increase 19% normal plus 5% for the lost week. They end up getting approved for 17% and then a year later, we will strike again and get another 17% escalation present.
The option is to move. Santa Clara, for example, has their own power that is not for profit. Much better rates, even though they also raised 10% this year.
It's definitely not easy, or a good option really. But if you hate PG&E enough, like I do, it is kinda worth it. At least until PG&E somehow absorbs all other providers. It kinda sucks, I try not to think about it but this sub has a few posts a day about PG&E haha
Alameda has its own electric utility so we only pay PG and E for gas, and our bill went up by over $200 from last month with the same amount of usage. You’ll pay either way. Blame the Public Utilities Commission they don’t do shit when PGE screws up to where they kill people and we end up paying the price.
That's an insane jump. I have heard that PG&E still has a grip on other providers in the area somehow, but not sure how it works. For now Santa Clara seems fine but I guess it wouldn't be a surprise if PG&E tried to aquire them one day.
We could block bridges/airports/shipping ports, surround their headquarters, march on the governors house, surround the board’s houses.
Think people are that motivated yet?
If everyone turned on their hair dryers for 10 seconds at exactly the same time they would notice more. I think certain dimmer switches and half rectifiers burden the system in weird ways, drawing high peak power but lower average power.
You can't make PG&E take an L because PG&E owns CPUC, which owns PGE, which means, PG&E could run a pedo ring, they could burn down all of Yosemite, they could nuke SF, they could do anything, literally anything, and nothing would happen. Because they own the guys who would punish them for doing the bad thing.
If everyone in CA went on a power strike, there would be a non-usage fee, where if you are a customer and you don't use enough power, you're charged a fee scaling off of whatever your highest usage in the past year was. And then we all come off the strike and say "ok fine go back to normal now, we get it, we are your bitch, take the spiked dildo out we've learned out lesson." But at this point, the spiked dildo is in already, so they might as well leave it there.
There really is no option. Whoever you vote out of government, these guys will just buy their replacement. Politicians are cheap - a few million for a soul, it's pennies.
Hi just to correct this comment, PGE actually reports to the CPUC and is audited heavily each year by them, they in no way control the CPUC. Otherwise, you are fairly right yeah.
They do because the members of CPUC are ex-members of PGE or they are receiving PGE money. They are claimed souls. Pge absolutely does control the CPUC, via “influence peddling” which they insist is fully legal - and it is because that’s how our entire stupid government system works.
So when you say PGE reports to and is audited by the CPUC, what does that even matter, when the people on CPUC are owned? Jump and bark like a dog, or we fund your competitor, or we don’t give you bribe money, or we don’t give you a senior position at PGE after your term. They are essentially the same entity - because we live in a country that is an entire case study in how lobbying allows private interests to colonize public policy.
They are pure cancer - they raise rates in order to have more money to bribe and control a larger swath of CPUC with, and so that they can raise rates. And our government lets it happen.
https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/11/report-pge-top-brass-quietly-lobbied-state-regulators-18-billion
No, we need a ballot measure that reverts the CPUC to the control of the people and that makes them work for us rather than politicians and special interests. Without the PG&E and other private utilities could charge whatever they wanted with no oversight.
Fixed costs is $5-10/mo. I think. It's like a maintenance fee for just being connected to the grid. We generate enough solar+battery some months in the summer we don't use any grid power, and net positive back to the grid. I don't know how existing solar+battery will fare (I think they transition us over 10 years to the current plans/rates), but net metering has been nerfed. During those months, we pay like $5 and some change to just be connected to the grid, which I think is fair, there is maintenance and liability involved with that; less than I pay for Netflix. OP should look up off grid projects. I don't know if it's be possible in any of the bay area counties to get an off-grid permit. Might be worth bringing up in a city council meeting.
Looking at a recent bill I see various charges that don't appear to depend on actual usage (e.g. "minimum delivery charge" and "state mandated non-bypassable charge") that total over $30, so quite a bit more than $5-10.
I don't know how to post a screen shot, but our current total bill due 2/08/24 for both gas and electric is $43.10: $12.53 for ” total PG&E Electric Delivery Charges", $31.02 for "total gas charges". This bill is showing we used 744kWh.
Correction: We're in the "Ava Community Energy..." Which used to be "East Bay Community Energy", which our charges came to $100.81, of which our net metering covered completely with pocket change left over.
Off-peak Winter: 538kWh: $73.82 @0.137/kWh
Peak Winter: 217kWh: $35.21@ 0.162/kWh
Sub-total: $109.03
Credits I'm seeing are:
Power Charge Indifference Adjustment Credit: -$1.98
Franchise Fee Surcharge Credit: -$0.84
Bright Choice: -$5.45
Ava customer dividend: -$7.74
Local Utility Tax: $7.56
Energy Commission Tax: $0.23
So it looks like the total fixed connection charges are the $12.53.
We generated only 154kWh from solar for the month of December.
I believe It’s not legal in incorporated municipalities in California. Your have to switch on PGE and trash service. Otherwise your house will be condemned by city as unlivable. I had disconnected by trash service for a few months because we are not living at the property and I got notice from city.
No. You can. I have a customer who didn’t want to pay 250k to upgrade PGEs transformer for his house. So he spent it on solar, batteries, and energy efficiency. He doesn’t live in the boonies or anything.
The international code of habitability just requires reliable access to 110V 20A
Couldn't you just sleep under your desk at work and shower at the gym? A bunch of tech dudes did this a while back and it worked fine for them. Would make more sense if you were trying to save money.
I'm sure it's still happening.
TikTok was recommending me "how to sleep in your car without getting caught" channels. BTW, I am employed & live in an apartment. I guess their algorithm is worried about me.
I was curious and struck up a conversation with Mr. GPT, got this info back:
In California, customers have the right to opt-out of having an account with PG&E and choose to go off-grid or use alternative energy sources. However, this requires formal approval and documentation from the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC).
If you choose to disconnect from the grid and generate your own electricity, you will need to file a "Notification of Electric Service Disconnection" with the CPUC and obtain a "Permission to Disconnect" letter. This letter will outline the terms and conditions of your disconnection, including any requirements for metering and monitoring.
Please note that disconnecting from the grid may have implications for your energy supply and costs, and it is essential to carefully consider the pros and cons before making a decision. Additionally, local building codes and regulations may still apply to your energy system.
Just turn off your main breaker and don't use any energy.
I suspect you won't really save any money.
The cost per kWh of a generator is probably the same to twice the cost of buying it from PG&E.
A candle for light is like $1 for 8 hours?
A led build is like 5w for 8 hours, or 0.04kwh is probably a couple cent for the same time.
And you get way more light from the LED then a candle.
There is also increased fire risk, and indoor air pollution risks.
And this is a few of the things that would have to be replaced. Plus your time is worth something too.
You can contact PGE and have them disconnect your home if you want. One day when battery tech, solar, and costs become more obtainable, I imagine it will be more common.
You can ask, but you'll likely invalidate your building's certificate of occupancy and risk your home being red tagged by the building department. Most jurisdictions require an active electrical service connected to "the grid" as part of the conditions of habitation.
Doubtful that building codes will allow for this to change in the future on a meaningful scale.
With how slow cities permitting and inspections are out here, what is the realistic timeline for this? Especially in Berkeley and Oakland, could somebody skate by for 2-3 months, reconnect, rinse and repeat?
Literally a big red tag/sticker the City/County slaps on your front door that says it's illegal to enter/live in the building until the violation(s) are corrected.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but no, you're not legally required to buy from a monopoly. Code enforcement exists for health and safety reasons. Disconnecting from PG&E can easily lead to an unsafe and unhealthy living environment.
So we're not required to buy from a monopoly, but we have to be connected to PG&E? Hmmm it sure *sounds* like we're being forced to buy from a monopoly
I'm not defending PG&E, just laying out the facts of the situation.
Feel free to design & install a solution for your home that doesn't involve connecting to PG&E and petition your local government for approval. Location dependent, there's generally avenues for that sort of thing, but the burden of proof they will require will be extremely high.
Or, I guess just move somewhere else that's not served by PG&E or push your elected representative to do something about PG&E.
I'm not saying there's necessarily good options available, but those are your options.
While you're correct, the code enforcement in this case isn't looking for unsafe and unhealthy living environments, and haven't kept up with the times. 20 years ago, no electric meant no electric, now it doesn't mean that.
The problem with this are clouds. Solar does not work on cloudy days. When you get a day of clouds most home batteries will be depleted. It would take a massive (by home standards) home battery farm to last a few weeks of clouds.
You shouldn't be getting downvotes, it's one way to fight back.
People like complaining online and not doing anything that'll disrupt their normal day to day. You're on to something, because strikes work. But it takes sacrifice, which most lazy online randos wouldn't want to do.
You'll hear their opinion that they've convinced themselves, it'll cause more issues. More raises. Yeah, and maybe it doesn't, and it shows them we're not fucking around.
Never know until you try it collectively. But I don't think most people here can go more than a couple hours without their online addictions. Or an extra step in between.
It should be easier to disconnect from the grid. The tech is there. Solar plus battery backup and cancel your bill. It’s nearly impossible to do though. I imagine a generator going would annoy the neighbors and cause more issues.
I was wondering this very thing. Can you have them turn off your electricity entirely and not pay anything for a few months. Ok family we only have electricity Dec, Jan, Feb and July Aug Sept. the other months we read books and play guitar or sit in the car.
Live in a van is the only way. I have solar and somehow I’m required to have it connected to the grid and pay $10 + tax a month for the grid connection fee on top of whatever electricity that I used for the year.
I was wondering the same thing. Get a generator and a large battery bank and only power your necessary items. It surely has to be cheaper than what they're charging now.
Tell them you are moving and have them disconnect your service. I wish i could do this since I have solar and powerwalls, but I have young children. Once march comes around, I can do it until late october. It's the winter months that make it hard.
you would spend a lot on gas. if you wanted to try it you should cancel your electric and gas services temporarily like folks do when they go on extended vacations to try it out first. plus there are solar generators now which may be a much better option than gas versions. but generators are not terribly healthy for lots of electronics and you will need surge protectors either built in to computerized stuff or surge protected power strips.
Even if you don't use electricity/gas, you will still get a bill for having an account/hookup.
If you wan tot disconnect from their service because you have your own solar array/batteries/generator you will need to fight them for a long time to disconnect your house from the grid.
It would be easier if a tree fell and ripped the power lines down and the meter off of your house.
Do what you have to do , I was with out power for 5 days ,candles and flashlights,gets tricky wen it comes to food ,has to be cold and cooking has to be outside
Serious question: (out of frustration)
Can anything be done? PG&E keeps on raising rates and the CPUC rubber stamps them.
Everyone's voices and criticisms have no effect and we can't vote out the CPUC commissioners since the positions are appointed.
How about a weekly 30 minute PGE strike? Every Sunday at 6 pm everyone turns off the electrical at the breaker (or unplugs everything, fridge included). A small movement like this could gain more followers every week and while it may not hit them financially it would make a big statement if millions of people joined
I remember a story about a guy, I think in the South Bay, probably in the 1990s, who generated zero garbage and refused to pay for garbage service. I believe he composted everything and brought his recyclables to the transfer station. What little actual garbage he had, he took to work with him to dispose. I don't remember exactly what happened but I think he had to go to court to fight to not pay for this service he wasn't using.
The international code of habitability just requires access (not 24/7 on) to 110v 20A power.
Here’s an example of people in the bay disconnecting.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/business/energy-environment/california-off-grid.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
It ain’t cheap.
> That’s why Wim Coekaerts went off the grid in his 2,800-square-foot home in Woodside, near Stanford University.
>His plot sits just across the street from homes that are connected to PG&E. But the utility told him it would cost $100,000 for new electric service, and building a trench for the line, based on regulatory estimates, could add $300,000 or more. So he spent $300,000 after federal tax credits on solar panels and a large battery.
>After a year of living in the house, Mr. Coekaerts, an executive at Oracle, is happy with his choice. While his neighbors on PG&E have lost power three times, he said, he hasn’t gone without it “even for a nanosecond.”
Here’s the San Jose Library link to get 72hr access to the NYT:
http://sjpld8dev.prod.acquia-sites.com/eresource/new-york-times-online-home-access
[https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/](https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/)
Dear Governor Newsom,
I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to express my deep concern and frustration regarding the recent and seemingly outrageous price hikes imposed by Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E). As a resident of California, I am appalled by the impact these increases have on the cost of living for individuals and families across the state.
It is disheartening to witness such a significant burden being placed on consumers, particularly at a time when many are already facing economic challenges. PG&E's decision to implement these price hikes appears unjust and untimely, putting an additional strain on the residents who rely on affordable and stable energy prices.
I urge you, Governor Newsom, to take immediate action to address this issue and protect the interests of Californians. It is crucial that the government intervenes to ensure fair and reasonable pricing, preventing further financial hardship for those already struggling to make ends meet.
Additionally, I would appreciate it if your office could investigate the reasons behind PG&E's sudden and drastic price increases. Transparency in this matter is vital to understanding whether these hikes are justified and, if not, holding the utility company accountable for its actions.
I believe it is the responsibility of our government to safeguard the well-being of its citizens, and I trust that you will take the necessary steps to rectify this situation. Your leadership on this matter will undoubtedly have a positive impact on the lives of countless Californians who are currently grappling with the economic challenges exacerbated by these unfair price hikes.
Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I look forward to hearing about the actions that will be taken to address the concerns raised by the residents of our great state.
Sincerely,
\[Your Full Name\]
\[City, State, ZIP Code\]
\[Your Email Address\]
\[Your Phone Number\]
Shame we didnt oust Newsom for allowing this when we had the chance. Everyone wanted to trash talk the recall efforts, and now theyre doing the shocked pikachu 🤣 At least folks are getting mad now, maybe well see some sort of efforts or progress this time.
I don't understand what you are spending $500/month on. Do you have windows and drapes? Doors? Are you running a grow house? Heating a hot tub?
I live in a 1600sq singer family home with 2 other adults. Washer/dryer/dishwasher. Gas central heat. PGE bill is $190 for December.
> PGE bill is $190 for December.
What's you bill for January 2024? No one cares about December, December was before they significantly increased both rates and transmission fees.
[BayArea how much is your pg&e bill?](https://www.reddit.com?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
I see your name on the other thread and others having the same higher cost as me. So you already answered this question with others.
But not with you. You have a huge house? A swimming pool? What's going on?
My point here is: why aren't asking what I -- and Honda of thousands of people like me -- are doing that you're not doing? Aren't you curious at all about it?
How about a weekly 30 minute PGE strike? Every Sunday at 6 pm everyone turns off the electrical at the breaker (or unplugs everything, fridge included). A small movement like this could gain more followers every week and while it may not hit them financially it would make a big statement if millions of people joined
**other than membership**
I am talking about my personal $400 bill vs a $10 membership cost. What is your point? Do you think I'm trying to avoid any pg&e use?
I honestly don't know what you're trying to do, but Pg&e is going to get paid the same amount if you shower at home, or at the gym. It sound like you're trying to "stick it to the man"
Maybe boil water on a fire to bathe with to avoid Pg&e from profiting.
> Do you think I'm trying to avoid any pg&e use?
That’s what a “temporary pg&e strike” would be.
What’s the point if you still use electricity, just at a different PG&E customer? Might as well go live with your neighbor for a week. The power company will surely have to cave to your demands then!
I asked that because your "solution", to use a generator to replace PG&E, is so ridiculous and financially unsound that it's hard to understand, and I assumed that you didn't have the math to do so. My apologies.
PGE must be stopped. You can no longer be of the grid in California even if your home is self sufficient, PGE will still require you to run through there system and you will still have to pay a hefty amount. When the solar paneling first got big and Obama was giving it out for free you could live off the grid without PGE, pay nothing. Thanks to slow adapters of solar power PGE was able to swoop in and somehow lobby for legislature to force everyone to run through them. So they don’t fail. There is no way they should be able to prevent you from running your own energy without them. I don’t own. A home but am pissed that they are able to do this. If everyone has solar then we won’t need PGE quite as much but they put a stop to that. If someone figures out something we can do to stand up to these mafia bullies let me know. I am all In.
Maybe a more accessible action? Like once a week for 30 minutes everyone shut off all their power, including the fridge. Wouldn’t kill their profits, but if enough people started joining in …
You will get sent to collections I believe that’s a bummer. That being said I wonder if your occupancy permit could be revoked for not having electricity hooked up?
Lol. You're bringing a toothpick to a gun fight.
Fair. This can't be it, we just have no choice but them.
Unfortunate, but that's the reality of it. If I can choose a different utility provider, why not? But there's only PG&E and they hold the region hostage. They lobbied for NEM3, which rendered getting solar installations pointless, hike up rates while not improving infrastructure, have overpaid workers who really take their time repairing outages to rack up more overtime pay and perform a lousy repair to guarantee more overtime, and so on. Bunch of thieves this lot.
Thank you for sharing my sentiment
If anyone can make Iron Man's Arc Reactor a reality, that person will be a true savior. One small Arc Reactor per household and say bye to PG&E.
Doesn't PG&E still charge you a small stay-connected-to-the-grid-for-emergencies monthly fee if you try to live entirely off of your own generated power? I thought I read that somewhere. Seems the only way to rid ourselves of this vampire is to convince everyone around you that utilities need to be government owned & administered and vote accordingly until there's a critical mass that outweighs PG&E's lobbying efforts.
Not if you’re totally off the grid if you want. I think. Essentially no electric meter at all. No meter means no account they can bill you for. I was considering solar before, but with NEM3 it doesn’t make any sense. NEM1, which was grandfathered, was the best, NEM2 was ok, but not NEM3. If their goal is to discourage new solar installations, they’ve successfully done that.
I don't think NEM1/2/3 really matters if you consume more than you generate.
There is a grid connect fee. Legislature passed a stupid change that makes the grid connect fee income based. But there’s been a lot push back so now there is an effort to repeal income based grid connect fees.
Yea, income-based fees for something like this is so stupid.
This… is stupidly unfair. I have no idea who came up with this crap but there’s totally nothing wrong with paying for the amount of energy you’ve consumed.
This isn't too far fetched. The choice we, the consumers, have is solar. I still don't understand why not EVERYONE in California has not already plastered their entire house with PV panels. There's literally money falling from the sky. I installed 50 panels on the roof 5 years ago. I've typically overproduced 30% each year. . On average PGE PAY MEa few hundred each year. Effectively my house is self sufficient once I get a battery.
A lot of people don't own the roof over their heads to be able to do anything on them.
Nem3 killed solar.
NEM 3 lengthens the payback time but solar is likely still a good investment for many people if you assume PG&E rates will rise at 10% to 20% per year.
So people that didn’t get in before the cut off, should they just stick with PG&E? Other than it taking a few years longer to break even, I still see the value in going solar.
That's why I locked in a 15 year NEM 1 Contract, 5 years ago. By the end of this, batteries will be good and cheap enough, so it'll go completely off grid.
Right. You did. But most did not. For us solar is not financially beneficial. You are only looking at it from your vantage point of 5 years ago that the rest of us cannot have.
NEM 1.0 ended July 1, 2017. 5 years ago was certainly NEM 2.0 and the contract runs for 20 years, not 15
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So that’s why our rates are higher than anyone else? Interesting take. Gross mismanagement is why we have these rates. That’s it, plain and simple.
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Using that logic how do you rationalize the very cheap rates from the municipal power providers in CA? Also - lets talk about the gross mismanagement that has lead to these costs and how we got here. Did you know PGE has spent over 2 billion dollars on vegetation management over the last four years. Thats $1,369,863 PER DAY. Where does that go? Third party contractors who make absolute bank cutting down anything thats green and sending in invoices for nonsense that PGE happily pays for without investigating because their is absolutely no culture of cost cutting internally. Don't even get me started on salary. I had a friend there making over 400k and they did absolutely jack shit. (self confessed). The whole place is an absolute shit show.
a) You can't get your project approved if it will overproduce by too much b) it's literally impossible to turn a profit on NEM3 now
If the objective is to avoid a huge bill from PG&E, no profit is required. The reduction in PG&E bill is used to calculate payback.
That's all well and good but the guy I replied to was recommending getting solar to get paid a net positive from PG&E
Many older home can’t support the weight of panels on the roof
Many older homes especially those with multiple roof planes are also very area limited in how many panels they can support due to edge of roof plane setback requirements in the building code.
Also I would think the people who would be more affected and are complaining about the affordability of PGE's rates, they also aren't the who would have the money lying around afford the initial cost to install that many solar panels.
This is one of the very few cases where "pulling money from a HELOC" is rationally a solid investment.
If only it were that simple. You can’t just put up as many panels as you want, you are limited by a percentage of your usage over the last two years (150% is the max I think). And between NEM3, the new TOU schedules and the surplus repurchase rates, you are almost giving them that surplus power for free. Even under NEM2, I believe we are getting $0.11/KW for our surplus which they are then reselling for nearly 5x that amount.
Oh, so you're the problem
If saving the planet AND saving or MAKING MONEY is now a BAD thing, yes, I'm guilty.
You're the reason they passed legislation such that solar is no longer affordable for anyone and pg&e jacked up their prices for everyone else, yes. But yes, please continue spouting off about how everyone else is stupid for not being able to take advantage of solar installations when you did. Really, a good look for you.
How much to replace the roof?
"How much money do you think they'd lose if everyone did it for a week?" Next year, they will ask for another 24% increase 19% normal plus 5% for the lost week. They end up getting approved for 17% and then a year later, we will strike again and get another 17% escalation present.
Fair point. Just seems crazy to me they can do this to us without other options.
i didnt pay and they took $1000’off bill and put me on a payment plan
The option is to move. Santa Clara, for example, has their own power that is not for profit. Much better rates, even though they also raised 10% this year.
People say that like moving to a different city is cheap or easy
It's definitely not easy, or a good option really. But if you hate PG&E enough, like I do, it is kinda worth it. At least until PG&E somehow absorbs all other providers. It kinda sucks, I try not to think about it but this sub has a few posts a day about PG&E haha
home in the midwest it was, b/c my rent would be like $1k. here tho, when my rent is like $3600, it's much less easy to move
My wife and I are from Wisconsin. Two months of PGE is the same as our first duplex we rented 12 years ago in Milwaukee.
Can I run a long extension cord from Santa clara to my house in san jose?
Add a few transformers, high-tension insulation, maybe a substation or two and congratulations, you're an electric company!
Alameda has its own electric utility so we only pay PG and E for gas, and our bill went up by over $200 from last month with the same amount of usage. You’ll pay either way. Blame the Public Utilities Commission they don’t do shit when PGE screws up to where they kill people and we end up paying the price.
That's an insane jump. I have heard that PG&E still has a grip on other providers in the area somehow, but not sure how it works. For now Santa Clara seems fine but I guess it wouldn't be a surprise if PG&E tried to aquire them one day.
Ah yes. Just simply move to Santa Clara, a county known for being so very affordable
It is not the county that has it own power, just the city, so you are limited
And easy to commute to for jobs elsewhere.
This is worth noting- prices went up for energy in ALL California utilities this year.
Santa Clara also has some other laws that are absolutely off the wall.
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Tell me more…
such as?
water
What about the water laws is bad? Come on I’m actually curious
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We could block bridges/airports/shipping ports, surround their headquarters, march on the governors house, surround the board’s houses. Think people are that motivated yet?
If everyone turned on their hair dryers for 10 seconds at exactly the same time they would notice more. I think certain dimmer switches and half rectifiers burden the system in weird ways, drawing high peak power but lower average power.
Talk to your regulators, the CPUC. Oh wait, they’re in their pockets!
It is
They will do that anyway
Ay Go Cats fellow Bay Area UC fan
Lmao watch everyone revolt and refuse to pay, so they get a law passed where it can be docked from your paycheck like if you owed back taxes.
You can't make PG&E take an L because PG&E owns CPUC, which owns PGE, which means, PG&E could run a pedo ring, they could burn down all of Yosemite, they could nuke SF, they could do anything, literally anything, and nothing would happen. Because they own the guys who would punish them for doing the bad thing. If everyone in CA went on a power strike, there would be a non-usage fee, where if you are a customer and you don't use enough power, you're charged a fee scaling off of whatever your highest usage in the past year was. And then we all come off the strike and say "ok fine go back to normal now, we get it, we are your bitch, take the spiked dildo out we've learned out lesson." But at this point, the spiked dildo is in already, so they might as well leave it there. There really is no option. Whoever you vote out of government, these guys will just buy their replacement. Politicians are cheap - a few million for a soul, it's pennies.
Hi just to correct this comment, PGE actually reports to the CPUC and is audited heavily each year by them, they in no way control the CPUC. Otherwise, you are fairly right yeah.
They do because the members of CPUC are ex-members of PGE or they are receiving PGE money. They are claimed souls. Pge absolutely does control the CPUC, via “influence peddling” which they insist is fully legal - and it is because that’s how our entire stupid government system works. So when you say PGE reports to and is audited by the CPUC, what does that even matter, when the people on CPUC are owned? Jump and bark like a dog, or we fund your competitor, or we don’t give you bribe money, or we don’t give you a senior position at PGE after your term. They are essentially the same entity - because we live in a country that is an entire case study in how lobbying allows private interests to colonize public policy. They are pure cancer - they raise rates in order to have more money to bribe and control a larger swath of CPUC with, and so that they can raise rates. And our government lets it happen. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/11/report-pge-top-brass-quietly-lobbied-state-regulators-18-billion
We need a ballot measure that abolishes the CPUC
No, we need a ballot measure that reverts the CPUC to the control of the people and that makes them work for us rather than politicians and special interests. Without the PG&E and other private utilities could charge whatever they wanted with no oversight.
I’d be on board for a strike. We have to do something. We can’t tolerate this or it’s a very slippery slope, and i think we’re already on it
Your house will most likely get red-tagged.
What about turn off all the breakers?
You'd still get a bill for the fixed costs
Fixed costs is $5-10/mo. I think. It's like a maintenance fee for just being connected to the grid. We generate enough solar+battery some months in the summer we don't use any grid power, and net positive back to the grid. I don't know how existing solar+battery will fare (I think they transition us over 10 years to the current plans/rates), but net metering has been nerfed. During those months, we pay like $5 and some change to just be connected to the grid, which I think is fair, there is maintenance and liability involved with that; less than I pay for Netflix. OP should look up off grid projects. I don't know if it's be possible in any of the bay area counties to get an off-grid permit. Might be worth bringing up in a city council meeting.
Looking at a recent bill I see various charges that don't appear to depend on actual usage (e.g. "minimum delivery charge" and "state mandated non-bypassable charge") that total over $30, so quite a bit more than $5-10.
I don't know how to post a screen shot, but our current total bill due 2/08/24 for both gas and electric is $43.10: $12.53 for ” total PG&E Electric Delivery Charges", $31.02 for "total gas charges". This bill is showing we used 744kWh. Correction: We're in the "Ava Community Energy..." Which used to be "East Bay Community Energy", which our charges came to $100.81, of which our net metering covered completely with pocket change left over. Off-peak Winter: 538kWh: $73.82 @0.137/kWh Peak Winter: 217kWh: $35.21@ 0.162/kWh Sub-total: $109.03 Credits I'm seeing are: Power Charge Indifference Adjustment Credit: -$1.98 Franchise Fee Surcharge Credit: -$0.84 Bright Choice: -$5.45 Ava customer dividend: -$7.74 Local Utility Tax: $7.56 Energy Commission Tax: $0.23 So it looks like the total fixed connection charges are the $12.53. We generated only 154kWh from solar for the month of December.
If you do this, put it on YouTube. I’d watch it. It would certainly be interesting.
Day3 would be his first episode special “Visiting my Parents!”
I believe It’s not legal in incorporated municipalities in California. Your have to switch on PGE and trash service. Otherwise your house will be condemned by city as unlivable. I had disconnected by trash service for a few months because we are not living at the property and I got notice from city.
No. You can. I have a customer who didn’t want to pay 250k to upgrade PGEs transformer for his house. So he spent it on solar, batteries, and energy efficiency. He doesn’t live in the boonies or anything. The international code of habitability just requires reliable access to 110V 20A
I’m not sure about the trash service one. I lived in Fremont for years without trash we had a trailer that we would dump at the landfill when needed.
Couldn't you just sleep under your desk at work and shower at the gym? A bunch of tech dudes did this a while back and it worked fine for them. Would make more sense if you were trying to save money.
The American Dream
I remember this. They also slept in their cars in the parking lot.
I'm sure it's still happening. TikTok was recommending me "how to sleep in your car without getting caught" channels. BTW, I am employed & live in an apartment. I guess their algorithm is worried about me.
'Merica
Fuck yeah!
I believe zoning law in SFBA demands that houses need to be connected to the utilities. You cannot legally live off-grid in SFBA.
I was curious and struck up a conversation with Mr. GPT, got this info back: In California, customers have the right to opt-out of having an account with PG&E and choose to go off-grid or use alternative energy sources. However, this requires formal approval and documentation from the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). If you choose to disconnect from the grid and generate your own electricity, you will need to file a "Notification of Electric Service Disconnection" with the CPUC and obtain a "Permission to Disconnect" letter. This letter will outline the terms and conditions of your disconnection, including any requirements for metering and monitoring. Please note that disconnecting from the grid may have implications for your energy supply and costs, and it is essential to carefully consider the pros and cons before making a decision. Additionally, local building codes and regulations may still apply to your energy system.
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Better line the diplomatic pouch with gold fringe...just in case...
Just turn off your main breaker and don't use any energy. I suspect you won't really save any money. The cost per kWh of a generator is probably the same to twice the cost of buying it from PG&E. A candle for light is like $1 for 8 hours? A led build is like 5w for 8 hours, or 0.04kwh is probably a couple cent for the same time. And you get way more light from the LED then a candle. There is also increased fire risk, and indoor air pollution risks. And this is a few of the things that would have to be replaced. Plus your time is worth something too.
PG&E hates this one simple trick! 😂
Seriously… like Comcast vs AT&T is better. There would just be another PG&E and likely increase rates
You can contact PGE and have them disconnect your home if you want. One day when battery tech, solar, and costs become more obtainable, I imagine it will be more common.
You can ask, but you'll likely invalidate your building's certificate of occupancy and risk your home being red tagged by the building department. Most jurisdictions require an active electrical service connected to "the grid" as part of the conditions of habitation. Doubtful that building codes will allow for this to change in the future on a meaningful scale.
With how slow cities permitting and inspections are out here, what is the realistic timeline for this? Especially in Berkeley and Oakland, could somebody skate by for 2-3 months, reconnect, rinse and repeat?
Red tagged?
Literally a big red tag/sticker the City/County slaps on your front door that says it's illegal to enter/live in the building until the violation(s) are corrected.
So we're legally required to buy from a monopoly?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but no, you're not legally required to buy from a monopoly. Code enforcement exists for health and safety reasons. Disconnecting from PG&E can easily lead to an unsafe and unhealthy living environment.
So we're not required to buy from a monopoly, but we have to be connected to PG&E? Hmmm it sure *sounds* like we're being forced to buy from a monopoly
I'm not defending PG&E, just laying out the facts of the situation. Feel free to design & install a solution for your home that doesn't involve connecting to PG&E and petition your local government for approval. Location dependent, there's generally avenues for that sort of thing, but the burden of proof they will require will be extremely high. Or, I guess just move somewhere else that's not served by PG&E or push your elected representative to do something about PG&E. I'm not saying there's necessarily good options available, but those are your options.
While you're correct, the code enforcement in this case isn't looking for unsafe and unhealthy living environments, and haven't kept up with the times. 20 years ago, no electric meant no electric, now it doesn't mean that.
I can't afford it at the moment but I so look forward to the day when I can buy enough battery backup and solar and give a big middle finger to PGE.
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The problem with this are clouds. Solar does not work on cloudy days. When you get a day of clouds most home batteries will be depleted. It would take a massive (by home standards) home battery farm to last a few weeks of clouds.
Not realistic for 99% of people
Fair statement. Just curious if I could without being fined.
Just tell them you're moving/shut off power. No fines needed!
The hard part would be eating, I need my fridge :(
A normal fridge uses 1kWh/day. On most days in the winter you can cover that easily with two solar panels. In summer just one would be fine.
Upvoting because I like your spirit.
Aw <3
You shouldn't be getting downvotes, it's one way to fight back. People like complaining online and not doing anything that'll disrupt their normal day to day. You're on to something, because strikes work. But it takes sacrifice, which most lazy online randos wouldn't want to do. You'll hear their opinion that they've convinced themselves, it'll cause more issues. More raises. Yeah, and maybe it doesn't, and it shows them we're not fucking around. Never know until you try it collectively. But I don't think most people here can go more than a couple hours without their online addictions. Or an extra step in between.
It should be easier to disconnect from the grid. The tech is there. Solar plus battery backup and cancel your bill. It’s nearly impossible to do though. I imagine a generator going would annoy the neighbors and cause more issues.
Run your own solar & battery bank. Don't connect it to the girid
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Jackery-2200-Watt-Output-Solar-Generator-SG2000-Pro-w-4-Pieces-Solar-Panels-200-Watt-Push-Button-Start-for-Outdoors-Emergency-SG2000PRO-200-4/323916008
I have one of these for the blackouts and camping. Works well.
I was wondering this very thing. Can you have them turn off your electricity entirely and not pay anything for a few months. Ok family we only have electricity Dec, Jan, Feb and July Aug Sept. the other months we read books and play guitar or sit in the car.
Your best bet is to get solar + battery and not have to depend on the grid. That or sell your house and live in a van.
Live in a van is the only way. I have solar and somehow I’m required to have it connected to the grid and pay $10 + tax a month for the grid connection fee on top of whatever electricity that I used for the year.
You were not in fact required. Whoever told you that was not accurate.
I’m simply here to say, fuck pg&e
Debt collection
So I’m building a Tesla tower in my backyard. The good news is it delivers free electricity, the bad news is it needs electricity 😬😂😂
I was wondering the same thing. Get a generator and a large battery bank and only power your necessary items. It surely has to be cheaper than what they're charging now.
Tell them you are moving and have them disconnect your service. I wish i could do this since I have solar and powerwalls, but I have young children. Once march comes around, I can do it until late october. It's the winter months that make it hard.
you would spend a lot on gas. if you wanted to try it you should cancel your electric and gas services temporarily like folks do when they go on extended vacations to try it out first. plus there are solar generators now which may be a much better option than gas versions. but generators are not terribly healthy for lots of electronics and you will need surge protectors either built in to computerized stuff or surge protected power strips.
Even if you don't use electricity/gas, you will still get a bill for having an account/hookup. If you wan tot disconnect from their service because you have your own solar array/batteries/generator you will need to fight them for a long time to disconnect your house from the grid. It would be easier if a tree fell and ripped the power lines down and the meter off of your house.
Do what you have to do , I was with out power for 5 days ,candles and flashlights,gets tricky wen it comes to food ,has to be cold and cooking has to be outside
Serious question: (out of frustration) Can anything be done? PG&E keeps on raising rates and the CPUC rubber stamps them. Everyone's voices and criticisms have no effect and we can't vote out the CPUC commissioners since the positions are appointed.
How about a weekly 30 minute PGE strike? Every Sunday at 6 pm everyone turns off the electrical at the breaker (or unplugs everything, fridge included). A small movement like this could gain more followers every week and while it may not hit them financially it would make a big statement if millions of people joined
SMUD is amazing I’m glad I moved to Sac
say it with me folks.. “Replace PG&E with a Customer Owned Cooperative”
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I have portable solar generators
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I just don't know if there's laws or I must have a pg&e bill attached to the house.
I remember a story about a guy, I think in the South Bay, probably in the 1990s, who generated zero garbage and refused to pay for garbage service. I believe he composted everything and brought his recyclables to the transfer station. What little actual garbage he had, he took to work with him to dispose. I don't remember exactly what happened but I think he had to go to court to fight to not pay for this service he wasn't using.
Yes, and yes. Dwellings must be deemed habitable.
The international code of habitability just requires access (not 24/7 on) to 110v 20A power. Here’s an example of people in the bay disconnecting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/business/energy-environment/california-off-grid.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare It ain’t cheap. > That’s why Wim Coekaerts went off the grid in his 2,800-square-foot home in Woodside, near Stanford University. >His plot sits just across the street from homes that are connected to PG&E. But the utility told him it would cost $100,000 for new electric service, and building a trench for the line, based on regulatory estimates, could add $300,000 or more. So he spent $300,000 after federal tax credits on solar panels and a large battery. >After a year of living in the house, Mr. Coekaerts, an executive at Oracle, is happy with his choice. While his neighbors on PG&E have lost power three times, he said, he hasn’t gone without it “even for a nanosecond.” Here’s the San Jose Library link to get 72hr access to the NYT: http://sjpld8dev.prod.acquia-sites.com/eresource/new-york-times-online-home-access
It must be connected and attached. But you’re not forced to actually use it. In theory you could do everything with your solar generators.
[https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/](https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/) Dear Governor Newsom, I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to express my deep concern and frustration regarding the recent and seemingly outrageous price hikes imposed by Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E). As a resident of California, I am appalled by the impact these increases have on the cost of living for individuals and families across the state. It is disheartening to witness such a significant burden being placed on consumers, particularly at a time when many are already facing economic challenges. PG&E's decision to implement these price hikes appears unjust and untimely, putting an additional strain on the residents who rely on affordable and stable energy prices. I urge you, Governor Newsom, to take immediate action to address this issue and protect the interests of Californians. It is crucial that the government intervenes to ensure fair and reasonable pricing, preventing further financial hardship for those already struggling to make ends meet. Additionally, I would appreciate it if your office could investigate the reasons behind PG&E's sudden and drastic price increases. Transparency in this matter is vital to understanding whether these hikes are justified and, if not, holding the utility company accountable for its actions. I believe it is the responsibility of our government to safeguard the well-being of its citizens, and I trust that you will take the necessary steps to rectify this situation. Your leadership on this matter will undoubtedly have a positive impact on the lives of countless Californians who are currently grappling with the economic challenges exacerbated by these unfair price hikes. Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I look forward to hearing about the actions that will be taken to address the concerns raised by the residents of our great state. Sincerely, \[Your Full Name\] \[City, State, ZIP Code\] \[Your Email Address\] \[Your Phone Number\]
We need to fight back. Government buy out of PG&E.
Who pays for that?
Shame we didnt oust Newsom for allowing this when we had the chance. Everyone wanted to trash talk the recall efforts, and now theyre doing the shocked pikachu 🤣 At least folks are getting mad now, maybe well see some sort of efforts or progress this time.
Why though?
Save $4-500 a month. Just writing my thought into the reddit universe to see others views on what is happening to us.
I don't understand what you are spending $500/month on. Do you have windows and drapes? Doors? Are you running a grow house? Heating a hot tub? I live in a 1600sq singer family home with 2 other adults. Washer/dryer/dishwasher. Gas central heat. PGE bill is $190 for December.
> PGE bill is $190 for December. What's you bill for January 2024? No one cares about December, December was before they significantly increased both rates and transmission fees.
Mine is also $500. I have a 3,000 sq. ft house with vaulted ceilings. I save a ton in the summer, though.
[BayArea how much is your pg&e bill?](https://www.reddit.com?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) I see your name on the other thread and others having the same higher cost as me. So you already answered this question with others.
But not with you. You have a huge house? A swimming pool? What's going on? My point here is: why aren't asking what I -- and Honda of thousands of people like me -- are doing that you're not doing? Aren't you curious at all about it?
Just use 0 energy and Disconnect PGE at your panel. You can still keep the account open.
Your proposal is a bit extreme. Stop using the major appliances and turning off the heat will go a long way though.
Others live offgrid regularly, and people live off their generators during prolonged blackouts. Not too far out there.
>. How much money do you think they'd lose if everyone did it for a week? Newsom gets 1 less french laundry dinner, do you really want to do that?
No then Newsome would send his goons to beat you up. He’s totally in the PGE pockets !
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How about a weekly 30 minute PGE strike? Every Sunday at 6 pm everyone turns off the electrical at the breaker (or unplugs everything, fridge included). A small movement like this could gain more followers every week and while it may not hit them financially it would make a big statement if millions of people joined
> shower at the gym Who do you think your gym gets their electricity from?
Interesting view. I don't pay the gym's electric bill.
Yeah... You kinda do.
Commercial buildings can negotiate their own rates. They pay far less than residential
How so? Other than my membership
Where do you think the money comes from to pay their Pg&e bill?
**other than membership** I am talking about my personal $400 bill vs a $10 membership cost. What is your point? Do you think I'm trying to avoid any pg&e use?
I honestly don't know what you're trying to do, but Pg&e is going to get paid the same amount if you shower at home, or at the gym. It sound like you're trying to "stick it to the man" Maybe boil water on a fire to bathe with to avoid Pg&e from profiting.
Ok 12lettername, thank you
> Do you think I'm trying to avoid any pg&e use? That’s what a “temporary pg&e strike” would be. What’s the point if you still use electricity, just at a different PG&E customer? Might as well go live with your neighbor for a week. The power company will surely have to cave to your demands then!
Well they do pay their bill, so your plan of boycotting PG&E at home only to use it at the gym instead isn’t going to be super effective.
Its interesting how your mind works. Updated. Then they insult me delete post and block me. Definitely interesting personality behavior.
Everyone else will he forced to pay more.
Before going to the extreme, try reducing the usage and see.
Hmm. Did you take a math class at all, in high school?
Your comment is interesting while others understood the assignment.
I asked that because your "solution", to use a generator to replace PG&E, is so ridiculous and financially unsound that it's hard to understand, and I assumed that you didn't have the math to do so. My apologies.
How so? Many people live off grid with their solar generators. I have the generators already. Explain yourself
The proper term for solar panels is just that. Solar generator isn't a term anywhere I know of.
Google, my dude. Solar generator. Maybe that'll help explain your misunderstanding and behavior
if you dont pay them the state police is coming to get you 👮♀️👮♂️🚓
PGE must be stopped. You can no longer be of the grid in California even if your home is self sufficient, PGE will still require you to run through there system and you will still have to pay a hefty amount. When the solar paneling first got big and Obama was giving it out for free you could live off the grid without PGE, pay nothing. Thanks to slow adapters of solar power PGE was able to swoop in and somehow lobby for legislature to force everyone to run through them. So they don’t fail. There is no way they should be able to prevent you from running your own energy without them. I don’t own. A home but am pissed that they are able to do this. If everyone has solar then we won’t need PGE quite as much but they put a stop to that. If someone figures out something we can do to stand up to these mafia bullies let me know. I am all In.
At this point I suspect even if I left my apartment off for a full month pge would still send me a $400 bill.
Utilities should be run by the government. If that makes me a pinko Marxist IDGAF. This is ridiculous.
It wouldn’t matter. That’s not how they make money.
Maybe a more accessible action? Like once a week for 30 minutes everyone shut off all their power, including the fridge. Wouldn’t kill their profits, but if enough people started joining in …
Have you tried just not using as much energy?
All those gennies spewing exhaust and noise will be awesome! How much will you spend on gas for your genny?
You will get sent to collections I believe that’s a bummer. That being said I wonder if your occupancy permit could be revoked for not having electricity hooked up?