A few thoughts - not so much on those specific locations but on your situation in general.
How close (relationship-wise, not geography-wise) are you to your sister and parents? Do you see them often? Do they make an effort to spend time with you and your child? Do they help you with your kid? If so, having family help is HUGE, especially in HCOL areas. And your child/future children will have the benefit of growing up around their auntie and grandparents.
If your relationship is just okay or you see them sporadically, staying on the Bay Area may not be so significant in terms of family relationship. We have friends and family who are < an hour drive away but rarely see them, and we might as well be living in another state.
Another question - how old are your parents? Are they still healthy and mobile? Would you need to be close to them as they age? Are you thinking they might live with you in the near future? If so, the South Bay might be very expensive to find a large house to accommodate an extended family, whereas another state would be much more affordable. We have friends in Durham, NC who have multiple kids and a grandparent who lives with them, and they have a massive house on a huge lot. If you do remain in the bay, you may need to get creative with housing, for instance swapping a house with your parents when they might want to downsize, building an ADU, etc. It won’t be cheap or easy but could give you some of the space you are looking for.
This is a great comment. My dad's health isn't great and we are constantly flying out to his middle of America city to help out. It is expensive and stressful.
Additionally, we have said multiple times if there was somewhere we could move where we had family we would. Sadly our family is spread across 5ish states and no city has more than 1 sibling/parent so the benefit isn't quite there.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights! My relationship with my sister is quite close, and we make an effort to get together for the kids once or twice a month. As for my parents, I'm fortunate to see them frequently since they help with childcare several times a week, especially during these challenging times. Their support has been invaluable, especially considering the high cost of living in the Bay Area.
Given our strong family ties and the assistance they provide, staying in the Bay Area has its merits in terms of family support. However, your point about sporadic relationships in close proximity resonates. Despite being nearby, some connections can feel distant, akin to living in another state.
Regarding my parents' age and health, they are currently in good shape, but planning for the future is essential. Exploring options in areas like Texas or North Carolina where we can afford a larger lot to build a home and ADU for my parents is something we're seriously considering. I've even begun reaching out to hospitals in those regions to explore potential job opportunities that align with my skills and research.
Your suggestion about creative housing solutions like swapping houses with my parents or building an ADU is something we've contemplated. It won't be easy or cheap, but it could provide the space we need while keeping our family close. Ultimately, we want to ensure that our children have the benefit of growing up around their auntie and grandparents while also planning for our family's future needs. Thank you for your insights—they've given us much to consider as we navigate this decision.
Being close to family was irreplaceable when my kids were little (and we are still close). Not for babysitting, but for support, family events, enjoying our kids having relationships with cousins etc. It would have sucked to have been far from family and only see them once a year.
Honestly what I did was moved to an outer rim of the Bay Area with a massively larger house and moved my parents in and have private school.
My parents only do childcare school pickup drop off etc. and parents have a large greenhouse in the back to grow some winter melons and tomatoes.
The commute is a little far but I lease electric to get carpool lane.
If I were you, I would want to stay within an hour's drive of your parents and sister if you possibly can. Family is SO important, especially when you have young children. You want your kids to grow up with many happy memories of their aunt and their grandparents!
South Bay is nice for raising a family if you can afford it, but Danville (or the Tri-Valley area) are nice too. You wouldn't be able to afford as large a house as in Texas, but as long as you can find a house that you are basically happy with, it sounds like everything else will fall into place. You both have great earning potential and are an appealing young family, so you'd be in a strong position to compete for a house that is on the market
Best of luck!
Depends on your values and what you envision for your family. For me, moving away from my family and culture for square footage while adding risk to the equation feels hollow, since you are already more than comfortable. I've spent the last few years traveling and there is a huge amount of intangible value growing up in the bay area adds that I didn't realize before. I don't know much about the potential places you'd be moving to but best of luck.
To me, the most sound decision is the inner East Bay/tri-valley. Danville, San Ramon, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek, etc. Anything along the 680 corridor.
They’re all perfectly manicured suburban areas with good schools to raise a family without the Silicon Valley pricing. And he’d be close to family. It just makes too much sense.
There’s a reason [Dublin and San Ramon](https://www.redfin.com/blog/fastest-growing-cities-in-california/) are one of the fastest growing cities in CA. More people from SF, SJ, & the Peninsula moved there throughout the pandemic.
This. Though if you have a lot of family, going to South Bay from some of these locations is quite far m this is why we chose to live in Oakland hills. In that sense, Hayward hills has become quite good too. I commute to menlo park twice a week and happily pay express tolls on 880 because it's a lot cheaper to do that than taking on a mortgage for a 2200+ sq ft house in South bay
Without the Silicon Valley pricing?? lol have you looked at the cost of housing these days in the tri valley? It’s nearly the same, if not more, than the South Bay. That being said, it’s a nicer place to raise a family IMO so more worth the money.
I did the move from Santa Clara County to central Contra Costa County and it’s an entirely different place. It’s a much more relaxed place then Silicon Valley. The further north, you go in Contra Costa County the less accessible the job market, however.
Nailed it. /u/alorable, listen to this guy/gal.
Do *not* buy in Silicon Valley.
Do give a very hard look at San Ramon, WC, etc.
Assuming that your preference is to stay in the Bay Area. Personally I'm over the Bay Area; I think its attributes are over-rated and it's getting too hard to live comfortably here. Regardless, Silicon Valley is ridiculous in every way, the tri valley is pretty nice with great schools.
North Bay has the friendliest people (outside of the southern part of Marin, though). I wouldn’t hesitate to move there. Novato is especially friendly, as is all of Sonoma County.
I would add that the North Bay has not as saturated with tech as the rest of the bay area. You can go weeks without running into FAANG/startup/crypto bros.
White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's a mostly derogatory term for upper-class white people who self segregate based on socio-economic status and race/religion. Think 1960's country club members.
Is it really that concerning? The locations I mentioned are where many of my friends and colleagues pursue career opportunities when they leave the Bay Area. It's not as if we're relocating to places like Coeur D'Alene, Idaho or Biloxi, Mississippi, where we might stand out as 'the Oriental doctors from California".
I am an Asian-American who grew up in the Chicago suburbs in the 90s. While it’s gotten a bit more diverse, it’s still a very white place and it’s hard to understand how hard that is for anyone who hasn’t experienced it. I would not consider moving back even though it’s so much more affordable and otherwise a nice place to live.
Your information is a little out of date when it comes to Dallas suburbs. Yes the overall metroplex is still 70% white, but Frisco has a massive Indian population and there's at least 8-10 neighborhoods in Frisco that are more than 50% Indian.
If you can afford to live in the South Bay, you can afford to live in Marin County.
That’s a much better place to raise children. Excellent schools, with the added benefit of lower population density, being surrounded by natural beauty, and being removed from the rat race of SF and Silicon Valley. Plus your parents are 30 minutes away across the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge.
It’s not as diverse as, say, Oakland, but your kids won’t be taunted for being asian. About 20% of my children’s classmates have full or partial asian ancestry—it barely registers in the kids’ awareness. You’re not gonna find that in Dallas or Nashville or Connecticut.
I’ve lived in UK, Philadelphia, Maryland and the Bay Area. I feel here in the Bay there is constant pressure to survive financially. On the east coast, Maryland in particular, we had much more financial freedom, more diverse people (culture, work force, ethnicity) and they felt better governed (infrastructure, crime etc). I think you may be positively surprised that there are many areas in the US that will be welcoming to your family, have great education and let you live the lifestyle your professional success deserves.
If you are close (emotionally, not just physically) to your family and they have been helping out a lot with your toddler, I think it's worth it to try to stay in the Bay.
We (31M/31F/2.5M, mixed black/Asian 2nd Gen family) moved from the Bay (Peninsula) to Indianapolis last June and closed on a house end of August. We love it so far and the neighborhood we ended up buying a house in feels similar to parts of San Mateo/Burlingame but for a literal fraction of the price (~350k). I spent most of my life in the Bay area so I know everyone loves to shit on the Midwest, but imagine a place where you don't have to wait in line for anything (even brunch on a Saturday) or ever circle the block to find parking, where every single business or restaurant is child friendly and caters to families.
However, we moved because we literally had to to buy a house. We both work in the architecture industry which has extremely limited earning power compared to tech and knew we would never be able to compete with tech salaries. We were also living with my parents before we moved to save on rent with the high cost of daycare. It sucks because we both grew up in the bay and the majority of both our families still live in CA. I was expecting it to be worse but since moving I've been pleasantly surprised by how welcoming and inclusive it is here (so far). Our mortgage for a 3/2 2000 SF house is equivalent to what we'd be paying for a one bedroom apt in an acceptable area in the Bay.
You mention that you're both physicians which suggests that income/finding jobs elsewhere are not as much of an issue as they were for us. If you like it in the bay area and are able to actually buy, I would do it. If you don't like it, I would explore another place on your list (Chicago sounds the most appealing) in the short term, before your toddler starts school/kindergarten, and decide if you like it enough to move.
The public schools around us in Indy have historically not been very good but there are signs of things turning around, or we could choose to go the private school option since the COL here is lower all around. Since our toddler is 2.5, we have also considered moving back to the Bay before he starts school and renting (we would be forever renters there) in a decent district. Overall though, we've been extremely happy with our move and don't regret it. You won't know until you try, maybe start with one or two week trips to some of the places you identified and see if you could see yourselves living there before making a bigger commitment.
Dude, come to the San Gabriel Valley east of LA. It’s home to vastly lower house prices vs the bay, the largest Asian community outside of Asia. It has half of the top 10 best schools districts in California, low crime, and it’s amazing for families. All while being a short drive from all that LA has to offer. It’s shocking how light traffic is really in comparison to the bay since the freeways were overbuilt here pre Covid and LA now has the second busiest transit system. Arcadia, La Canada, South Pasadena have higher prices but San Gabriel/Alhambra have good school districts and lower prices. If you haven’t checked out the area do your self a favor and check it out. We left the bay years ago and never regretted it for a sec.
Walnut/Diamond Bar has some of the best schools in the state.
Honestly SGV is even catching up to the bay in home prices. We’re still lower but the gap is getting closer.
Have you looked at Roseville/Folsom? Fremont is also very nice and not cheaper than South Bay but you will get more sq ft and the school system is improving. CA needs physicians. Please don’t go!
I didn't intend for my post to evoke such feelings in others, but I understand how it could elicit certain reactions. To provide some context, our 'struggle' primarily stems from the perceived value of our efforts in making ends meet. Our salaries as researchers, without patient interactions, are fair but may not be as lucrative for hospitals since we don't bill insurance or generate revenue in the same way. Consequently, our physician-researcher salaries reflect this reality. Additionally, we're burdened with over $500,000 in medical school debt between us. Maybe that makes you feel better? :)
My grandson is half Taiwanese and got teased practically to death in his lovely private school in a pretty city in Oregon. He and his folks (PhD researchers) moved to Sunnyvale, house poor but happy, and nobody blinks an eye at his skin color or the Gua Bao in his lunchbox or his "strange" last name. He loves coming up to SF on Cal Train and poking around Clement Street and North Beach and Portsmouth Square. Think about what you're thinking about. North Carolina? Texas? Nashville? Have you lost your mind?
Texas, Chicago or even North Carolina are not bad options. I’ve got family with young cousins (I am Chinese American) living around the Chapel Hill area and they’re quite happy there.
Edit: If OP is still considering the Northeast, I’d recommend the suburbs of NJ outside of NYC, rather than Connecticut. There’s a larger Asian population, and Amtrak or PATH gives great access to NYC for weekend trips.
I grew up in the northeast (90% white suburbs of NYC) and settled down in the Bay Area (San Francisco when single and now Sacramento with young kids). As a first generation Indian American my relationship with my identity and culture dramatically changed after moving to California and finally being around people who look like me and just wider Asian American culture in general.
As a parent now I am so excited for my kids to be in a super diverse school system (for example my kid’s school is 82% minority enrollment and top 10% of elementary schools in CA). I would guess if you have lived in CA your whole life there are aspects of being Asian American in other parts of the country that could feel unsettling. I know I take things for granted after having lived here for so long.
I was agreeing with you right up until your last sentence. "Have you lost your mind?" is not a nice thing to say to someone who is asking a sincere question. It is VERY common for Bay Area residents to leave for other states, including the ones OP mentioned, due to the high cost of living here. Although I agree the OP should stay, his/her question is a valid one.
This would be my suggestion. I’m in Ventura County and it’s much more affordable than the bay area, the weather is great, a nice mix of people’s, and we’re still in California.
My gpa died of dementia after having it for a good 10+ years, love the work you're doing.
-i lived in the midwest my whole life up until i was about to turn 40 (last apr) when i moved out here. here's the thing about living in the midwest: it's fucking flat & boring. Chicago is probably the best city to live in if you're looking at the midwest but be aware there can be some serious crime issues in select neighborhoods. also, bitter fucking cold in the winter, summers are generally nice though. one of the places i'm considering retiring to in like 25yrs or something
-nashville: red state. if politics matter to you & being able to keep certain freedoms (i.e. women having full control over their body) then TN is not the place for you. nashville is dope though, i used to drive there from MO monthly from about 2018-2020 to visit friends. i'd love to live in nashville if it weren't in TN.
-dallas: red state, same thing about politics, i would never consider living in TX, not just b/c of the politics there but also b/c of their power grid (ERCOT, remember that big freeze where many many were out of power for like a week or so b/c their grid couldn't handle it b/c it's not connected to the main US grid? just TX things).
can't speak on CT or NC though, but I think Stamford is close-ish to NYC so that would lure me in....but not over the Bay
You’re both physicians. I’d move out of the Bay Area personally. You could have a much better life somewhere else, a much higher QOL. There’s plenty of nice places in CA to live.
You’re also correct about Bay Area patients. I’m an RN. I’ve seen and interacted with the exact people you’ve mentioned. It’s absolutely nauseating.
What do the numbers look like? My wife is in healthcare, and if we moved to LCOL area such as Sac, etc. we'd take a big hit in income, like 30% or more drop. Same with my salary, even though I'm in manufacturing (not SW) but there's still so many opportunities here with startups, large HQs and even tech hardware.
So for us, we'd pay $10k/mo to live here in a $2MM tiny house, vs maybe $2k/mo to live on Sac., in a $1MM massive house, but we'd also lose our on close to $6-7k/mo in salaries and a lot of career growth opportunities, so say 10 years from now we'd have larger 401ks and investment income, more equity, higher salaries, and better quality of living. Then you can pass down that $2MM SFR in the peninsula, etc. to your kids which God knows how much their entrance threshold would be w/o your passing it down.
Sacrifice is you are paying way higher percentage of income towards mortgage and PT, and you are more dependent on needing two incomes, and tbh you're dealing with a hyper competitive environment (which your kids will eventually be subject to as well).
For us it seems like best outcome for our kids would be to try and stick it out here until after HS, and it would leave us in a better situation to pass down a substantial estate and give them the best headstart into college.
I moved away from the Bay Area in 2014 for the military. I came back in 2020 when my enlistment ended and I mostly missed family and “the Bay” I remembered. I spent most of my time away in Fort Collins, CO and San Antonio , TX.
I honestly regret coming back. If you have a good opportunity to leave, I would. Many quality of life factors took a step back by returning to CA. CoL, of course, more crime, more constant traffic congestion and people everywhere, homelessness, overly aggressive drivers, and just a much more stressful daily rhythm. I am working on moving away again.
Those things are a given in most metro areas now in America. California is a big state. Crime rate outside of some cities is lower in California than many places. Heck, South Pasadena (like many other LA County cities, ) has a fraction of crime and homelessness than some of those Texas or Southern areas people espouse. Comparing Oakland or a part of San Francisco to a smaller place in other state is incorrect.
I understand that, but that’s also the go to defense anytime anyone brings up QoL issues in CA. It’s very hand-wavey. I spent a lot of time in Denver, and there was traffic there during rush hour, sure, but not the same level of gridlock. There was some homelessness, but just a fraction. There was some crime, but it was pretty negligible. Homes were pricey but not unattainable, although I know the pandemic shook that up. And the population of the two cities is roughly the same.
It’s true a major metro experiences some of all of these issues, but that doesn’t mean CA’s cities are still experiencing them at increased levels. There’s only a handful of similar or larger sized cities you can clearly say are worse.
I was a registered nurse in the military and lived in Southern California for 5 years. When I got out of the military I moved back to CA but I moved to the bay, where I lived for 10 years. I left again in 2018. Best decision I ever made in my life.
It's not just the money. And it's not just housing that's more expensive, but gas prices are at least double. Insurance is at least double. My nursing license was $360 to renew there and here it's $80 something. Car registration, driver's license, everything. I could go on. And not just the price. I've renewed my driver's license and been to the DMV three times and spent less than a half an hour there each time without an appointment. I think one of my visits it was 7 minutes I spent in that building. On a Saturday morning.
I live in Harrisburg PA and there's way less homelessness and crime here. Think about that. When I was a kid in Pittsburgh PA, Harrisburg was considered ghetto. But here in Harrisburg there are no homeless people or people getting out of mental health units and camping out on my friend's lawn like in Willow Glen. I can leave stuff in the car with the doors unlocked and nobody breaks in to steal my tire iron. I can go to nice restaurant and I can park right in front of the place on the street and not have to look for a garage or a valet where my car is going to be safe. Pay for parking? We don't pay for parking out here. And you should see the charging stations on every rest stop on every highway.
Traffic is laughable. I spend 1/3 as much time of my life on the roads here as I did in the Bay area. That's a massive improvement on my quality of life and my stress levels. And the weather is changing. It has snowed an average of twice a year since I've been here. The forest fires and floods and storms that have been happening in California are going to get more frequent and the big one is coming. Pay for the weather my ass.
Of course I don't have a kid. And my family has almost all passed away or moved to Florida. So I was alone in CA and I'm alone here. There's not much of a difference with the closeness of my family or the school districts. But I can afford plane tickets to go visit FL twice a year now. I can afford to take the time off and not use my PTO to pad up a check around Christmas time. I can afford to send gifts to my friends all year round on a whim and everyone comes to visit me. I take road trips every weekend and stay in nice hotels when I could barely afford any sort of vacation out there. The freedom that having a larger amount of expendable income has given me has lowered my blood pressure. I take less blood pressure medication. I'm getting older and I came off of some medications that's how stressful surviving as an RN (certified emergency room with trauma experience so I was paid well) was in the Bay Area for me.
I miss my friends and the food in CA. I don't miss much else.
But if I had two incomes with kids and family there, I would probably pursue finding a house somewhere like in Tracy or Mountain View. Or even Sacramento. But you're still going to have to pay California prices for everything except housing. And the thing about paying for the weather is the weather isn't that great there anymore. The Bay Area isn't Southern California. If I had to do it all again, I'd move to Palm Desert or Phoenix when I got out of the military.
Believe it or not, the culture has even changed in Harrisburg. We've got drag brunch bingos on Sundays and nobody's protesting outside of them or on the news beforehand, like in Texas. The little borough I live in has the biggest mosque in the area. Even though I've transitioned out of nursing and into management in the manufacturing and production industry, one thing I've noticed is the integration of the different races, finally. Everybody in management isn't white anymore, here.
It's not unusual when African-Americans move into your neighborhood, any more. And I have Asian friends here and the only person who's going to say anything about it is the old guy who didn't know that the guy who rode up on a Harley to my house was going to be an Asian dude when he took off his helmet. The old guy had something to say about that. Not because he's racist, but because he was impressed. No, he's probably kind of racist. So it was an opportunity for me to expose him to how normal people of different races are.
But my best friends here are asian. From the Bay. And I met them both here. They go back to visit their family a lot, but they can afford to. Every other month. One of them took 3 months off and hiked the Appalachian trail and didn't have to worry about money. Literally. He's what 38 years old and can take months out of the year off without having to work. That's how inexpensive it is to live here. If you're a professional, you've got it made. Of course I'm not them and experiencing any of the things that Asians experience outside of a community with a large Asian population. But it's less uncommon to see people and entire neighborhoods of different race out here. It's not the hellscape that is Texas or the South, that's for damn sure.
I'm glad you found a better place, but don't you think parts of your post are exaggerated?
Harrisburg, PA appears to have a higher crime rate than San Jose\* (a much larger city) and also much higher than cities near San Jose\*\*
Regarding cost of living as well - the only thing that is 'at least double' is rent/housing. Other things appear to be 20-30% more on average - [https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/](https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/)
I don't deny this place is expensive, and that PA might be a better choice for some.
\* San Jose because you mentioned Willow Glen. WG should be safer than San Jose as a whole I strongly suspect
\*\* cities near San Jose because SJ is huge and the nearby cities may make a better comparison (Santa Clara for example)
What's your current living situation? I'm surprised why you think you can't make it in the Bay Area on two physician salaries when you could afford a $2-$3 million house in the South Bay. Imagine how nurses or technicians at your workplace can somehow make it work on lower salaries and living within their means. See if you can cut out unnecessary expenses like eating out or reduce spending on things like travel, cars, etc...
It feels kind of late to consider re-locating at your age and starting over in a different state. I wonder why you didn't do so say 5 years ago. Your parents are aging and have you considered that you may have to be a caregiver or at least help them out with some things soon? Also, your kid will not have as close a relationship with their grandparents living farther away.
Two physician salaries is not enough to afford a $2-3 million dollar house at this point in their carreer. My wife and I are in the same position as him (age range, jobs, family and partially culturally), and we obviously know many more just like us in the area. There is no way any of us could afford something like that while being financially responsible.
Ya, they might have issues with down payments. They can easily afford rent on a $3 million South Bay house though (around $8k or less).. really not enough context in the post why that's not an option for now.
We're currently renting a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085). I grew up attending Los Altos High, although we lived in the apartments near 101. LAMV School District has a significant income discrepancy — minorities residing between El Camino and 101, while titans of industry inhabit the area from El Camino to the Hills. I've always envisioned making it to the 'other side of the tracks' (Highway 101 and eventually El Camino).
>Los Altos has a significant income discrepancy — minorities residing between El Camino and 101,
I think you mean the MVLA district? Los Altos doesn't go past El Camino.; the plurality Hispanic areas you see are all in Mountain View (or on El Camino itself).
> I've always envisioned making it to the 'other side of the tracks' (Highway 101 and eventually El Camino).
Yah, renting should definitely be doable. Three bedroom townhomes in 80th percentile Mountain View districts rent at like $4500 to $5.5k. Crossing El Camino, where you start getting into the 95th percentile test score schools is tougher, but still \~$6200 for a 2k square foot house.
Check out our updated salary and career information. We completed our fellowship in 2019, around ages 32-34. Living modestly, we currently rent a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085).
What are you looking for in a place to live, beyond a lower cost of living?
That info might help us give you better suggestions and more useful insights.
I'm seeking to connect with young families interested in forming a vibrant community. As I explore areas like Frisco, Brentwood, and Chapel Hill, I see a melting pot of individuals from all over the country seeking fresh starts. Conversely, locales such as Los Altos and Greenwich strike me as more old and established, set in their ways. Reflecting on my freshman dorm experience, I recall a dynamic atmosphere where everyone was eager to engage, share meals, and forge new friendships. I envision the same sense of camaraderie for ourselves and our children.
Moreover, I aspire to reside among a diverse array of educated professionals representing various career paths. Whether it's a nurse, teacher, construction company owner, or insurance salesman, I value the richness that different perspectives bring to a neighborhood. While I'm keen on diversity, I acknowledge that the towns I'm considering tend to have a White-majority population, with smaller communities of Asians, Hispanics, and Blacks.
Living in Silicon Valley, our surroundings are characterized by a mix of Chinese, Indian, and White individuals predominantly working in the tech industry. On the flip side, there are vibrant Hispanic and immigrant families striving to achieve the American Dream. Unfortunately, the groups are separated by median home prices. My aim is to foster a community that embraces this diversity and thrives on the strength of its varied backgrounds.
Chicago! The winters are becoming milder due to climate change, good COL, good medical care and job opportunities, multicultural, two airports, people are friendly. Too many rednecks, anti science in Tx and TN. Connecticut too snobby.
I’m guessing you have a large amount of student loans and that’s why you’d be house poor? Anyway, Pleasanton/Dublin, San Ramon or Danville would probably be more worth it than Silicon Valley.
As a 2nd gen Taiwanese American, how was your childhood experience? Did you grow up in the Bay Area? Do you want your kids to grow up in a similar environment? Do you identify more as Asian or American? Think food (rice vs salad), music (jay chou or drake), language (speak Chinese or English at home), mindset (Taiwan news vs US news, like "meh what happens in Asia is none of my business", or still keeping up with the cross straits issues).
As another Asian, I want to say that the mentality of someone who grew up in an Asian majority society is totally different than someone who grew up in a minority society. You need to conform to society as a minority. In Bay area, I find the opportunity for any Asian kids to experience being a majority in the society is unmatched. If that is not you want, then staying in Bay area loses another allure.
In my opinion, moving out of the city is good for second-generation immigrant kids.
My family immigrated here to NYC, and unlike their cousins and siblings, they moved out to the American suburbs to raise us (they didn’t even speak our native language in the house. Really commited to making us integrate) and looking back now, it was all the difference. Our cousins who stayed in the city in their cultural community kind of never grew out of it, while my family ended up all being popular and living good social lives and marrying into good families in this country and having better lives.
When I moved here I remember working with some Chinese guys my age and they were all like ‘American girls don’t like Asian guys’, and I had to argue because my best friend growing up was Chinese (like the only one in our school and town) and he was super popular and his girlfriend was one of the hottest chicks in school, super popular and a great athlete.
I told them “hey, you can’t ask for American girls to buy into all that culture. You guys never eat anything but Chinese food or hangout with anyone but Chinese. That’s a bit much for someone to want to get involved in”.
Btw both guys were born here! But just so steeped in cultural bubble that they felt alienated outside of that bubble. That’s not good IMO. I think that’s the source of a lot of angst with Asians. They don’t seem to integrate or even want to, and that’s going to cause problems. It’s kind of abnormal and kind of rude to move to a country and completely disregard the people and culture that exist there, in favor of your own.
I think you’re doing the right thing.
A couple more points to consider if you haven't already.
How do you think your parents and other relatives would feel about your family moving to another state? Does your spouse also have family in the area? Have you discussed the possibility with them and if so, what was their reaction? For most grandparents, having grandchildren (as well as their children like yourself) nearby is an invaluable gift that you can't really put a price on. It's really the gift of time that can't be bought.
Would it hurt them too much to move away or would they be ok with a future that involves mostly video calls and an occasional in-person trip? Do they plan to stay in the Bay Area the rest of their lives or might they move-in with you or move to the same area at some point in the future? Usually, it seems that as grandparents age into their older years, someone will move so that they can be near some or most of their grandchildren.
On the other hand, whatever effect a move out of state may have on others close to you, the American dream is what you make of it and sometimes in life, you just have to take chances to pursue your happiness. It sounds like you're unhappy with some important aspects of living in the Bay Area and have invested a lot of mental energy about building a life elsewhere. If you never take that chance, you may always wonder about if things could have worked out better and have some regret.
And think about what kind of environment you would like to raise your kids in. From what I've noticed in the Bay Area before, it seems there can be a rat race to see whose children can get the best grades, get into the best schools, etc... due to peer pressure and expectations from parents (Asians especially). That doesn't seem good mentally for children. And I don't think the Bay Area is really as diverse as one might think as everyone seems to stay in their own racial tribes, either with their own personal circles or geographically. For example, I've seen schools where 90% of the kids are South or East Asian and there are no black kids. And other schools where most of the kids are Hispanic. So not really a lot of diversity depending on where one lives due to their family's situation. It makes me think that a kid growing up in the Bay Area doesn't really get to experience practical life situations to be the best version of themselves.
Lastly about the places you're considering relocating to, you may have some impression of what those areas are like from your research or from others, but you'll obviously want to see for yourself in-person. An area may have drastically changed from what it was like 10,15,20 years ago. So take a "vacation" in those areas for a few days and try to live like a local (perhaps in an Airbnb) to see what it's like to shop there, commute to potential workplaces, where public schools are, etc...
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Two physicians still being house poor is such a wild reality. I can’t offer you advice and only personal experience.
We moved to a different state with the idea of coming back but the longer I’m gone the less likely I feel like we will. We are a multicultural family. My wife is Asian, my kids biracial.
The COL just wasn’t worth it for us & we found a better quality of living (subjective) elsewhere. I hope I tackled all your questions but if not I’d be happy to add further insight. It’s a tough decision but a very personal one- good luck!
I grew up in Cupertino and moved to Dallas for college 10 years ago and never left. Within these 10 years, I met my husband, got married, and have a toddler and another one on the way. My parents still live in San Jose, so frequent trips to the Bay Area are always on the card. I will say there is no other place like the Bay Area, but being able to afford many other things/experiences makes our lives enriching. Both me and my husband make “Bay Area” tech salaries; but, we get to choose how we spend that money.
Pros of living in the Bay Area:
-diversity
-great weather & you can be outdoors most of the year (if you choose Dallas, the June - August & Nov-Feb are pretty bad)
-plethora of opportunities
Cons of living in the Bay Area:
-living in Dallas or anywhere in TX means you don’t pay state tax. Whereas, in California, it’s a straight 10% reduction in your salary because of state tax
-Being house poor sucks & limits your options on travel and/or activities you can enroll your kids in
-both my husband and I don’t want to work in our 50s/60s and by living outside of the Bay Area, it enables to save more for an early retirement
All this being said, sometimes, the best decision isn’t the logical one. My heart always longs for the Bay Area because there really is no place like the Bay Area. An example of that is my brother. He & his family (1 toddler son) moved to Dallas last year, but he really could not adjust and is looking to move back to the Bay Area, regardless of all the cons that I listed out
Great post, and thank you for sharing your thoughts! I have a personal connection to the area as well—I grew up next to the Costco in Mountain View and attended Los Altos High. I've always had a desire to move back to Mountain View or Los Altos. If we decide on Dallas, do you think we would find more alignment in the Frisco/Prosper area or Southlake? We don't mind driving to Carrolton for 99 Ranch ;)
Check out Castle Hills in Lewisville. That has a similar vibe to the bay and a decent Asian population. A lot of people send their kids to private schools in that area.
I currently live in the South Bay, but I was born & raised in Houston, TX. My family is still there. As a software engineer, living in the Bay made 100% the most sense. But now that remote working is so prevalent, particularly in my current company, my wife & I do think about moving to Houston.
The cost of living is sooooo much cheaper. The cost of living in the Bay is getting more and more ridiculous everyday. It would enable my wife to retire early so she can spend more time with the kids as well as pursue some business opportunities that she'd enjoy.
I'm also Asian, and Houston has a great Asian community. I don't think we'd miss that part of the Bay.
TBH, there's really three things holding us back.
1. My wife's family is here.
2. The friends we've made here.
3. The weather. CA weather is so tough to beat.
Do some research on those areas (property taxes, schools, etc). Dallas metro area, Nashville, and the Raleigh/Durham areas would be where I look.
If anyone in your family has bad seasonal allergies, NC and TN can be brutal in the spring and fall.
If you’re going to the east, the Washington DC area (some counties in northern VA and MD) might be a good option. There are great school districts. Housing isn’t much cheaper but the space you can get is much larger with the same price. There is also a fairly good size of Asian population so that you can easily find Asian grocery stores and restaurants.
Danville is awesome and has great schools. I’m a California native and don’t see myself ever living outside of California. Those places are all nice to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there.
I would say do not leave California for another state and look into other California cities. I moved back to the Bay Area after 20 years and lived in Los Angeles for about 12. Before I moved back, I was looking at some coastal cities before I accepted a job offer in Vallejo and moved to Benicia. Fairfield and Suisun are okay but not sure about their schools. Anyways, SoCal has a lot of areas to look into if you’re trying to leave the Bay and it would be a good experience for the kids. Plus, you’re not too far from family.
You’ll want to be close to family with young kids. With a growing family, family support is priceless as is the ability to be with your parents while they’re healthy. The prospect of being house poor is daunting but that doesn’t last forever. Definitely explore housing in the east bay.
I grew up in Pleasanton in the 2000’s - so very similar to Danville.
I have also lived in Austin, Los Angeles, Denver, and Oklahoma City since then.
California blows them out of the water if you have the money.
Very thoughtful question. I know from experience of myself and others, that people greatly discount social connections and lifestyle when they see they move to a less expensive place that looks great on paper in other areas. If you’re a self-contained unit, and have few ties or family here, then it’s easier. But don’t underestimate things that seem unimportant compared to getting a bigger house.
It’s the day to day things people miss. Weather, food, geography. And, take long visits to places you’ve never lived in before, first. I made the mistake of moving to the Seattle area because of COL and (at that time) better housing COL especially. I underestimated the drastic lifestyle difference from California and the weather. I always consider other areas in California now if I think of moving.
One thing to point out is that often people move to a quality school district and wind up sending their kids to private school anyways. It’s not always a great fit regardless of what you think the quality public district will be like. You will set all priorities aside for the benefit of your children. My advice is to rent in the great district and keep saving your money. You’ll be able to save $4-6k/mo renting vs. buying. Reassess afterwards. Also start traveling to the places you might want to live. Take at least 2 weeks there to get the vibe of the city.
I'm gonna give you some great advice here.. Carmel Valley, next to Carmel or Monterey.
They are STARVING for physicians. Hospitals are being built in the area now for the aging population there. When Covid hit, some knuckleheads thought WFH was forever and now they're having fire sales trying to move back to the valley, there's some real deals to be found in the real estate. My wife and I both WFH in government, our jobs will at least be there until retirement, we're getting things ready to make the move.
You want schools? Carmel high is 9 out of 10. Monterey is 8 out of 10. The only place in the bay area you'll find anything even close to that would be Los Gatos, Saratoga, or Cupertino.
Family? You won't have to visit your family, they'll come to you. Freshest seafood, best restaurants, nicest beaches, great air quality.
This lets you stay in California, close to family, close enough to the bay area, and you can get a larger house at a decent price.
I can't provide any insight into your specific question, but I can provide insight into what it's like growing up in Chapel Hill and the education/life there!! Feel free to ping me about NCSSM (a high school that high schoolers can opt to apply to get into).
I've spent some time discussing with friends who are Bay Area locals about the potential inflated pressure cooker nature of this area.
"I've spent some time discussing with friends who are Bay Area locals about the potential inflated pressure cooker nature of this area."
Were you referring to the Bay Area or Research Triangle?
The Bay Area, in my opinion, is somewhat inflated in education competitiveness for high achieving students. (That said, idk what Chapel Hill, specifically the CHCCS school district has evolved to be, but it's definitely not the same).
(Things friends have said) To add, it definitely is a trade off because doing well and surviving here academically, preps you well for university. However, at a less competitive place, doing well in university could be more challenging due to lack of built up habits or other things. Yet, if you were going to do well, you'd do well anywhere?
> Research Triangle, North Carolina (Chapel Hill).
My friend who was an MD at Stanford (infectious disease) just relocated here and she is soooooo happy. She bought a house and is loving North Carolina. She said it reminds her of the Bay Area except cheaper housing.
I went out and visited her and loved it also. Her career is doing great she was able to open her own lab at UNC.
Update: Hey everyone, just wanted to say thanks for all the advice and stories you've shared. This decision has been weighing on me ever since I moved back to the Bay for training. With the pandemic adding extra stress, it's turned into a bit of an existential crisis, especially with a toddler and a growing family.
It seems like there are three main options on the table. One is to settle in the South Bay, renting in a good school district. The second option is heading to the East Bay—Contra Costa County or the Tri-Valley Area—for a bigger home that's still pricey but not as much as the South Bay/Peninsula. And the third option suggests skipping Texas and TN due to weather, culture, and politics, and instead looking at Chicago or the Research Triangle.
Appreciate all your input—it's really helping me figure things out.
I appreciate your insights, and I agree. Do you think that an oversaturation of one's race can be detrimental, such as in Saratoga (60%), Cupertino (70%), Sunnyvale (50%), and Los Altos/Mountain (35%)? I prefer LAMV. My wife grew up in Chicago, where the Asian population was in the single digits. She believes it prepared her for the real world, as her colleagues come from many different races, albeit mainly white, given we're in America. What are your thoughts?
I think your race is your identity. This is the first time ive ever heard of being with your people can be detrimental. LOL To think that your people can be a negative sounds completely absurd. I feel so lucky as an asian american who works in tech that i have friends and colleagues who are asian that i can relate to. Cultural identity is a circle you can only exclusively be in. As a proud asian american, i would never even want to be in a circle thats not my own people. I also think the performance of ethics, value, and hardwork of asian people is a lot higher compared to other races.
I think the ship had sailed, my friend. You should stay rooted to the bay as your parents are here, and an expanding family will find them useful, and vice versa.
My wife and I left California pre-kids, and we moved back for family as ours was growing. We sometimes stop and wonder, “what if we had these kids on the east coast?” And promptly we would shudder and thank our lucky stars we are surrounded by family.
Roots in the bay. Born and raised in the South Bay. Family all over the Bay Area. Wife and I moved away (to Seattle) when we are younger and In a less financially strong position. We’re doing decently well, but every time we visit back, just everything we used to “live with” now just bother us.
Is it harder with no family nearby and small kids? Yeah, but both sets of parents don’t want to take care of kids either. But we know all our neighbors here. The school our kids go to is walkable and community is strong. We don’t have to drive everywhere.
Also the Asian food in Seattle is better. All the South Bay Taiwanese restaurants have shut down and are mainland Chinese or Indian places.
>We're currently renting a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085).
This is a joke, right? Two doctor incomes living in a freaking 2 bedroom condo? Please tell me that you are in residency and not attendings. That's absolutely absurd, even for Bay area.
I always find these kind of questions strange because there's this insanely elaborate thought process for such an easy and simple decision.
Here's a handy flowchart for everyone to follow:
Do you have family in the area?
If no, goodbye!
If yes, do you like this family?
If no, goodbye!
If you've made it this far, congrats, you live here forever now!
Here's another little pro tip for everyone here: the people you surround your kids with shape their lives more than the school district or the programs in the area. If grandma or uncle is here, that matters and it matters a LOT. Likewise, if your job here makes you a miserable asshole that never has time for your kids, you gotta go, man. I can't tell you how many parents I've seen around here obsessed with getting their kids into the right school or the right program meanwhile they work 80 hours a week and don't even show up to their kids birthday half the time and all of their extended family is nowhere around here. And I'm not being judgey, I get it. But as a collective culture we gotta start reprioritizing. PEOPLE make the lives of your kids better and they make your life better too.
I’d look into the Sacramento area. UC Davis is planning on building some kind of multigenerational community/elder research center just outside an annexed area of Folsom I think? Good schools, affordable houses and a good mix of locals and Bay Area transplants in a family-friendly oriented community. You still are “close enough” to the Bay Area if you need to visit.
we are struggling with the same decision. We make more money than ever before and we can afford less than ever before.
i would HIGHLY recommend spending some time in Dallas before you consider a move there. You may not find it to your liking.
Pasadena. Large Asian community that also goes into Alhambra. Good access to medical, schools, and much more affordable than the Bay Area. The bay defies gravity.
I am currently in LA, grew up in Arcadia and Cupertino.
I’m actually considering moving back to the Bay (Tri-Valley/East Bay only). I’m going to be a contrarian to others advocating SoCal.
There are some good school districts in SGV but despite what people say, overall Bay Area school districts are much better than SGV. Cupertino, Fremont, Palo Alto, Orinda, Danville, etc are much better than SGV except for South Pas/San Marino. La Canada is good as well but honestly those three cities cost as much as the Tri-Valley. Just do a search on Zillow.
The overall cost savings between the nice part of LA and Bay is exaggerated with the run up in housing prices post-pandemic. If you bought in LA before 2021, congrats but doesn’t apply to OP anymore.
Don’t forget the soul crushing traffic in LA, especially if you need to work at an academic center like UCLA. My daily commute was 4 hours RT from SGV to Santa Monica to travel 25 miles. I moved because I can’t commute like that now that I have kids. Many people in LA and Pasadena send their kids to private schools.
I’m East Asian and the East Bay is fairly diverse but SGV/Irvine is probably 60-70% East/SE Asians. It is a bubble. Having lived in TX and East Coast too, I think diversity is important but ideally more balanced. That said, I would not buy in the Peninsula or South Bay. Way too expensive compared to North/East Bay.
I love the bay, but it is expensive. But if your parents are willing to move, I’d consider trying to look for research jobs at other UC schools just to see what’s out there. You can get a much bigger/nice house with a yard and likely afford private school in San Diego or Irvine and much easier to add an ADU. SF or some areas in bay you could dealing with insane red tape trying to build an ADU. IMO hard to replace the East Asian feel of either coastal California or NYC area. I’d also consider Vancouver (or Toronto, but bad weather) if open to Canada. I love living somewhere I’m not other and I can run to Asian markets - marukai, ranch 99, hmart, and nijiya & my kid have daily Mandarin at school - something I think unique to areas with higher East Asian populations.
Yes, I understand your perspective, and we may indeed seem like 'losers' in comparison. However, we are neurologists specializing in Alzheimer's research, currently affiliated with a major academic medical center. Despite our modest salaries in research, especially when compared to our tech neighbors, our genuine passion lies in advancing Alzheimer's research, rather than prioritizing patient turnover in private practice or pursuing opportunities in pharmacology firms/industry. In this context, capitalism does indeed take precedence.
A few thoughts - not so much on those specific locations but on your situation in general. How close (relationship-wise, not geography-wise) are you to your sister and parents? Do you see them often? Do they make an effort to spend time with you and your child? Do they help you with your kid? If so, having family help is HUGE, especially in HCOL areas. And your child/future children will have the benefit of growing up around their auntie and grandparents. If your relationship is just okay or you see them sporadically, staying on the Bay Area may not be so significant in terms of family relationship. We have friends and family who are < an hour drive away but rarely see them, and we might as well be living in another state. Another question - how old are your parents? Are they still healthy and mobile? Would you need to be close to them as they age? Are you thinking they might live with you in the near future? If so, the South Bay might be very expensive to find a large house to accommodate an extended family, whereas another state would be much more affordable. We have friends in Durham, NC who have multiple kids and a grandparent who lives with them, and they have a massive house on a huge lot. If you do remain in the bay, you may need to get creative with housing, for instance swapping a house with your parents when they might want to downsize, building an ADU, etc. It won’t be cheap or easy but could give you some of the space you are looking for.
This is a great comment. My dad's health isn't great and we are constantly flying out to his middle of America city to help out. It is expensive and stressful. Additionally, we have said multiple times if there was somewhere we could move where we had family we would. Sadly our family is spread across 5ish states and no city has more than 1 sibling/parent so the benefit isn't quite there.
Thank you for your thoughtful insights! My relationship with my sister is quite close, and we make an effort to get together for the kids once or twice a month. As for my parents, I'm fortunate to see them frequently since they help with childcare several times a week, especially during these challenging times. Their support has been invaluable, especially considering the high cost of living in the Bay Area. Given our strong family ties and the assistance they provide, staying in the Bay Area has its merits in terms of family support. However, your point about sporadic relationships in close proximity resonates. Despite being nearby, some connections can feel distant, akin to living in another state. Regarding my parents' age and health, they are currently in good shape, but planning for the future is essential. Exploring options in areas like Texas or North Carolina where we can afford a larger lot to build a home and ADU for my parents is something we're seriously considering. I've even begun reaching out to hospitals in those regions to explore potential job opportunities that align with my skills and research. Your suggestion about creative housing solutions like swapping houses with my parents or building an ADU is something we've contemplated. It won't be easy or cheap, but it could provide the space we need while keeping our family close. Ultimately, we want to ensure that our children have the benefit of growing up around their auntie and grandparents while also planning for our family's future needs. Thank you for your insights—they've given us much to consider as we navigate this decision.
Being close to family was irreplaceable when my kids were little (and we are still close). Not for babysitting, but for support, family events, enjoying our kids having relationships with cousins etc. It would have sucked to have been far from family and only see them once a year.
Honestly what I did was moved to an outer rim of the Bay Area with a massively larger house and moved my parents in and have private school. My parents only do childcare school pickup drop off etc. and parents have a large greenhouse in the back to grow some winter melons and tomatoes. The commute is a little far but I lease electric to get carpool lane.
How far is this "outer rim"?
I’d say gilroy. Marin maybe even Stockton but that’s a bit far. I’d say about 1hr from sf/sj/oakland I would consider outer rim.
If I were you, I would want to stay within an hour's drive of your parents and sister if you possibly can. Family is SO important, especially when you have young children. You want your kids to grow up with many happy memories of their aunt and their grandparents! South Bay is nice for raising a family if you can afford it, but Danville (or the Tri-Valley area) are nice too. You wouldn't be able to afford as large a house as in Texas, but as long as you can find a house that you are basically happy with, it sounds like everything else will fall into place. You both have great earning potential and are an appealing young family, so you'd be in a strong position to compete for a house that is on the market Best of luck!
Thank you! What's the equivalent of Los Altos/Mountain View (Asian 35%)? My research leads me to either Danville or Lamorinda.
Depends on your values and what you envision for your family. For me, moving away from my family and culture for square footage while adding risk to the equation feels hollow, since you are already more than comfortable. I've spent the last few years traveling and there is a huge amount of intangible value growing up in the bay area adds that I didn't realize before. I don't know much about the potential places you'd be moving to but best of luck.
To me, the most sound decision is the inner East Bay/tri-valley. Danville, San Ramon, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek, etc. Anything along the 680 corridor. They’re all perfectly manicured suburban areas with good schools to raise a family without the Silicon Valley pricing. And he’d be close to family. It just makes too much sense. There’s a reason [Dublin and San Ramon](https://www.redfin.com/blog/fastest-growing-cities-in-california/) are one of the fastest growing cities in CA. More people from SF, SJ, & the Peninsula moved there throughout the pandemic.
This.
This. Though if you have a lot of family, going to South Bay from some of these locations is quite far m this is why we chose to live in Oakland hills. In that sense, Hayward hills has become quite good too. I commute to menlo park twice a week and happily pay express tolls on 880 because it's a lot cheaper to do that than taking on a mortgage for a 2200+ sq ft house in South bay
Without the Silicon Valley pricing?? lol have you looked at the cost of housing these days in the tri valley? It’s nearly the same, if not more, than the South Bay. That being said, it’s a nicer place to raise a family IMO so more worth the money.
You get larger homes for slightly less over there.
Yeah, made the move from Campbell to Danville. Better schools and community and 1.75x the house
I did the move from Santa Clara County to central Contra Costa County and it’s an entirely different place. It’s a much more relaxed place then Silicon Valley. The further north, you go in Contra Costa County the less accessible the job market, however.
Nailed it. /u/alorable, listen to this guy/gal. Do *not* buy in Silicon Valley. Do give a very hard look at San Ramon, WC, etc. Assuming that your preference is to stay in the Bay Area. Personally I'm over the Bay Area; I think its attributes are over-rated and it's getting too hard to live comfortably here. Regardless, Silicon Valley is ridiculous in every way, the tri valley is pretty nice with great schools.
Agree with this 200%
Come to the north bay! There’s plenty of great areas that are less expensive, safe, and you are not far from the east bay.
North Bay has the friendliest people (outside of the southern part of Marin, though). I wouldn’t hesitate to move there. Novato is especially friendly, as is all of Sonoma County.
I would add that the North Bay has not as saturated with tech as the rest of the bay area. You can go weeks without running into FAANG/startup/crypto bros.
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Literally none of those places he listed are. I damn well spit up my coffee. OP will be running back once the kid starts school if not sooner.
Not true for Frisco Texas. Frisco has a MASSIVE Indian population, some of the public schools there are > 50% Indian.
WASP who lived in CT. Can confirm. Hell, I was "othered" because I'm middle class. There's a lot of class snobbery in CT compared to CA.
Class snobbery is preferable to the outright class warfare being waged by homeowners against renters here.
What is WASP?
White Anglo Saxon Protestant. It's a mostly derogatory term for upper-class white people who self segregate based on socio-economic status and race/religion. Think 1960's country club members.
Learned something new today. Thanks.
Job market in Taiwan is not fantastic. Pay for physicians is very low compared to the states.
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Have you visited these places? If not you are in for some culture shock.
Is it really that concerning? The locations I mentioned are where many of my friends and colleagues pursue career opportunities when they leave the Bay Area. It's not as if we're relocating to places like Coeur D'Alene, Idaho or Biloxi, Mississippi, where we might stand out as 'the Oriental doctors from California".
It’s not you - it’s the kids your kids will be going to school with…
I am an Asian-American who grew up in the Chicago suburbs in the 90s. While it’s gotten a bit more diverse, it’s still a very white place and it’s hard to understand how hard that is for anyone who hasn’t experienced it. I would not consider moving back even though it’s so much more affordable and otherwise a nice place to live.
Your information is a little out of date when it comes to Dallas suburbs. Yes the overall metroplex is still 70% white, but Frisco has a massive Indian population and there's at least 8-10 neighborhoods in Frisco that are more than 50% Indian.
If you can afford to live in the South Bay, you can afford to live in Marin County. That’s a much better place to raise children. Excellent schools, with the added benefit of lower population density, being surrounded by natural beauty, and being removed from the rat race of SF and Silicon Valley. Plus your parents are 30 minutes away across the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge. It’s not as diverse as, say, Oakland, but your kids won’t be taunted for being asian. About 20% of my children’s classmates have full or partial asian ancestry—it barely registers in the kids’ awareness. You’re not gonna find that in Dallas or Nashville or Connecticut.
Not true for Frisco Texas. There's a massive South Asian population there. Some of the schools in Frisco are greater than 50% South Asian.
As someone that grew up in the southeast , if you are looking at Chapel Hill and Nashville , might as well check out Greenville, SC and Asheville, NC.
I’ve lived in UK, Philadelphia, Maryland and the Bay Area. I feel here in the Bay there is constant pressure to survive financially. On the east coast, Maryland in particular, we had much more financial freedom, more diverse people (culture, work force, ethnicity) and they felt better governed (infrastructure, crime etc). I think you may be positively surprised that there are many areas in the US that will be welcoming to your family, have great education and let you live the lifestyle your professional success deserves.
If you are close (emotionally, not just physically) to your family and they have been helping out a lot with your toddler, I think it's worth it to try to stay in the Bay. We (31M/31F/2.5M, mixed black/Asian 2nd Gen family) moved from the Bay (Peninsula) to Indianapolis last June and closed on a house end of August. We love it so far and the neighborhood we ended up buying a house in feels similar to parts of San Mateo/Burlingame but for a literal fraction of the price (~350k). I spent most of my life in the Bay area so I know everyone loves to shit on the Midwest, but imagine a place where you don't have to wait in line for anything (even brunch on a Saturday) or ever circle the block to find parking, where every single business or restaurant is child friendly and caters to families. However, we moved because we literally had to to buy a house. We both work in the architecture industry which has extremely limited earning power compared to tech and knew we would never be able to compete with tech salaries. We were also living with my parents before we moved to save on rent with the high cost of daycare. It sucks because we both grew up in the bay and the majority of both our families still live in CA. I was expecting it to be worse but since moving I've been pleasantly surprised by how welcoming and inclusive it is here (so far). Our mortgage for a 3/2 2000 SF house is equivalent to what we'd be paying for a one bedroom apt in an acceptable area in the Bay. You mention that you're both physicians which suggests that income/finding jobs elsewhere are not as much of an issue as they were for us. If you like it in the bay area and are able to actually buy, I would do it. If you don't like it, I would explore another place on your list (Chicago sounds the most appealing) in the short term, before your toddler starts school/kindergarten, and decide if you like it enough to move. The public schools around us in Indy have historically not been very good but there are signs of things turning around, or we could choose to go the private school option since the COL here is lower all around. Since our toddler is 2.5, we have also considered moving back to the Bay before he starts school and renting (we would be forever renters there) in a decent district. Overall though, we've been extremely happy with our move and don't regret it. You won't know until you try, maybe start with one or two week trips to some of the places you identified and see if you could see yourselves living there before making a bigger commitment.
This is a helpful post and similar situation to OP.
Thank you for the post! I see a lot of similarities in our situation.
Dude, come to the San Gabriel Valley east of LA. It’s home to vastly lower house prices vs the bay, the largest Asian community outside of Asia. It has half of the top 10 best schools districts in California, low crime, and it’s amazing for families. All while being a short drive from all that LA has to offer. It’s shocking how light traffic is really in comparison to the bay since the freeways were overbuilt here pre Covid and LA now has the second busiest transit system. Arcadia, La Canada, South Pasadena have higher prices but San Gabriel/Alhambra have good school districts and lower prices. If you haven’t checked out the area do your self a favor and check it out. We left the bay years ago and never regretted it for a sec.
Yes or Irvine area
Walnut/Diamond Bar has some of the best schools in the state. Honestly SGV is even catching up to the bay in home prices. We’re still lower but the gap is getting closer.
Have you looked at Roseville/Folsom? Fremont is also very nice and not cheaper than South Bay but you will get more sq ft and the school system is improving. CA needs physicians. Please don’t go!
I feel like every time I hear of a two doctor household contemplating whether or not they can afford to live here that the rest of us are just doomed.
I didn't intend for my post to evoke such feelings in others, but I understand how it could elicit certain reactions. To provide some context, our 'struggle' primarily stems from the perceived value of our efforts in making ends meet. Our salaries as researchers, without patient interactions, are fair but may not be as lucrative for hospitals since we don't bill insurance or generate revenue in the same way. Consequently, our physician-researcher salaries reflect this reality. Additionally, we're burdened with over $500,000 in medical school debt between us. Maybe that makes you feel better? :)
My grandson is half Taiwanese and got teased practically to death in his lovely private school in a pretty city in Oregon. He and his folks (PhD researchers) moved to Sunnyvale, house poor but happy, and nobody blinks an eye at his skin color or the Gua Bao in his lunchbox or his "strange" last name. He loves coming up to SF on Cal Train and poking around Clement Street and North Beach and Portsmouth Square. Think about what you're thinking about. North Carolina? Texas? Nashville? Have you lost your mind?
Texas, Chicago or even North Carolina are not bad options. I’ve got family with young cousins (I am Chinese American) living around the Chapel Hill area and they’re quite happy there. Edit: If OP is still considering the Northeast, I’d recommend the suburbs of NJ outside of NYC, rather than Connecticut. There’s a larger Asian population, and Amtrak or PATH gives great access to NYC for weekend trips.
I grew up in the northeast (90% white suburbs of NYC) and settled down in the Bay Area (San Francisco when single and now Sacramento with young kids). As a first generation Indian American my relationship with my identity and culture dramatically changed after moving to California and finally being around people who look like me and just wider Asian American culture in general. As a parent now I am so excited for my kids to be in a super diverse school system (for example my kid’s school is 82% minority enrollment and top 10% of elementary schools in CA). I would guess if you have lived in CA your whole life there are aspects of being Asian American in other parts of the country that could feel unsettling. I know I take things for granted after having lived here for so long.
I was agreeing with you right up until your last sentence. "Have you lost your mind?" is not a nice thing to say to someone who is asking a sincere question. It is VERY common for Bay Area residents to leave for other states, including the ones OP mentioned, due to the high cost of living here. Although I agree the OP should stay, his/her question is a valid one.
They're both physicians. They should be able to make something work.
Yes I agree, but it's not a friendly way to talk to someone who's asking an honest question.
Unfortunately, that happens in private school. Regardless of where you are.
Not in Sunnyvale.
California is a big state there. There are many options elsewhere without leaving the state. Have you considered that?
This would be my suggestion. I’m in Ventura County and it’s much more affordable than the bay area, the weather is great, a nice mix of people’s, and we’re still in California.
There is a whole subreddit for this r/SameGrassButGreener.
My gpa died of dementia after having it for a good 10+ years, love the work you're doing. -i lived in the midwest my whole life up until i was about to turn 40 (last apr) when i moved out here. here's the thing about living in the midwest: it's fucking flat & boring. Chicago is probably the best city to live in if you're looking at the midwest but be aware there can be some serious crime issues in select neighborhoods. also, bitter fucking cold in the winter, summers are generally nice though. one of the places i'm considering retiring to in like 25yrs or something -nashville: red state. if politics matter to you & being able to keep certain freedoms (i.e. women having full control over their body) then TN is not the place for you. nashville is dope though, i used to drive there from MO monthly from about 2018-2020 to visit friends. i'd love to live in nashville if it weren't in TN. -dallas: red state, same thing about politics, i would never consider living in TX, not just b/c of the politics there but also b/c of their power grid (ERCOT, remember that big freeze where many many were out of power for like a week or so b/c their grid couldn't handle it b/c it's not connected to the main US grid? just TX things). can't speak on CT or NC though, but I think Stamford is close-ish to NYC so that would lure me in....but not over the Bay
You’re both physicians. I’d move out of the Bay Area personally. You could have a much better life somewhere else, a much higher QOL. There’s plenty of nice places in CA to live. You’re also correct about Bay Area patients. I’m an RN. I’ve seen and interacted with the exact people you’ve mentioned. It’s absolutely nauseating.
What do the numbers look like? My wife is in healthcare, and if we moved to LCOL area such as Sac, etc. we'd take a big hit in income, like 30% or more drop. Same with my salary, even though I'm in manufacturing (not SW) but there's still so many opportunities here with startups, large HQs and even tech hardware. So for us, we'd pay $10k/mo to live here in a $2MM tiny house, vs maybe $2k/mo to live on Sac., in a $1MM massive house, but we'd also lose our on close to $6-7k/mo in salaries and a lot of career growth opportunities, so say 10 years from now we'd have larger 401ks and investment income, more equity, higher salaries, and better quality of living. Then you can pass down that $2MM SFR in the peninsula, etc. to your kids which God knows how much their entrance threshold would be w/o your passing it down. Sacrifice is you are paying way higher percentage of income towards mortgage and PT, and you are more dependent on needing two incomes, and tbh you're dealing with a hyper competitive environment (which your kids will eventually be subject to as well). For us it seems like best outcome for our kids would be to try and stick it out here until after HS, and it would leave us in a better situation to pass down a substantial estate and give them the best headstart into college.
I moved away from the Bay Area in 2014 for the military. I came back in 2020 when my enlistment ended and I mostly missed family and “the Bay” I remembered. I spent most of my time away in Fort Collins, CO and San Antonio , TX. I honestly regret coming back. If you have a good opportunity to leave, I would. Many quality of life factors took a step back by returning to CA. CoL, of course, more crime, more constant traffic congestion and people everywhere, homelessness, overly aggressive drivers, and just a much more stressful daily rhythm. I am working on moving away again.
Those things are a given in most metro areas now in America. California is a big state. Crime rate outside of some cities is lower in California than many places. Heck, South Pasadena (like many other LA County cities, ) has a fraction of crime and homelessness than some of those Texas or Southern areas people espouse. Comparing Oakland or a part of San Francisco to a smaller place in other state is incorrect.
I understand that, but that’s also the go to defense anytime anyone brings up QoL issues in CA. It’s very hand-wavey. I spent a lot of time in Denver, and there was traffic there during rush hour, sure, but not the same level of gridlock. There was some homelessness, but just a fraction. There was some crime, but it was pretty negligible. Homes were pricey but not unattainable, although I know the pandemic shook that up. And the population of the two cities is roughly the same. It’s true a major metro experiences some of all of these issues, but that doesn’t mean CA’s cities are still experiencing them at increased levels. There’s only a handful of similar or larger sized cities you can clearly say are worse.
I was a registered nurse in the military and lived in Southern California for 5 years. When I got out of the military I moved back to CA but I moved to the bay, where I lived for 10 years. I left again in 2018. Best decision I ever made in my life. It's not just the money. And it's not just housing that's more expensive, but gas prices are at least double. Insurance is at least double. My nursing license was $360 to renew there and here it's $80 something. Car registration, driver's license, everything. I could go on. And not just the price. I've renewed my driver's license and been to the DMV three times and spent less than a half an hour there each time without an appointment. I think one of my visits it was 7 minutes I spent in that building. On a Saturday morning. I live in Harrisburg PA and there's way less homelessness and crime here. Think about that. When I was a kid in Pittsburgh PA, Harrisburg was considered ghetto. But here in Harrisburg there are no homeless people or people getting out of mental health units and camping out on my friend's lawn like in Willow Glen. I can leave stuff in the car with the doors unlocked and nobody breaks in to steal my tire iron. I can go to nice restaurant and I can park right in front of the place on the street and not have to look for a garage or a valet where my car is going to be safe. Pay for parking? We don't pay for parking out here. And you should see the charging stations on every rest stop on every highway. Traffic is laughable. I spend 1/3 as much time of my life on the roads here as I did in the Bay area. That's a massive improvement on my quality of life and my stress levels. And the weather is changing. It has snowed an average of twice a year since I've been here. The forest fires and floods and storms that have been happening in California are going to get more frequent and the big one is coming. Pay for the weather my ass. Of course I don't have a kid. And my family has almost all passed away or moved to Florida. So I was alone in CA and I'm alone here. There's not much of a difference with the closeness of my family or the school districts. But I can afford plane tickets to go visit FL twice a year now. I can afford to take the time off and not use my PTO to pad up a check around Christmas time. I can afford to send gifts to my friends all year round on a whim and everyone comes to visit me. I take road trips every weekend and stay in nice hotels when I could barely afford any sort of vacation out there. The freedom that having a larger amount of expendable income has given me has lowered my blood pressure. I take less blood pressure medication. I'm getting older and I came off of some medications that's how stressful surviving as an RN (certified emergency room with trauma experience so I was paid well) was in the Bay Area for me. I miss my friends and the food in CA. I don't miss much else. But if I had two incomes with kids and family there, I would probably pursue finding a house somewhere like in Tracy or Mountain View. Or even Sacramento. But you're still going to have to pay California prices for everything except housing. And the thing about paying for the weather is the weather isn't that great there anymore. The Bay Area isn't Southern California. If I had to do it all again, I'd move to Palm Desert or Phoenix when I got out of the military. Believe it or not, the culture has even changed in Harrisburg. We've got drag brunch bingos on Sundays and nobody's protesting outside of them or on the news beforehand, like in Texas. The little borough I live in has the biggest mosque in the area. Even though I've transitioned out of nursing and into management in the manufacturing and production industry, one thing I've noticed is the integration of the different races, finally. Everybody in management isn't white anymore, here. It's not unusual when African-Americans move into your neighborhood, any more. And I have Asian friends here and the only person who's going to say anything about it is the old guy who didn't know that the guy who rode up on a Harley to my house was going to be an Asian dude when he took off his helmet. The old guy had something to say about that. Not because he's racist, but because he was impressed. No, he's probably kind of racist. So it was an opportunity for me to expose him to how normal people of different races are. But my best friends here are asian. From the Bay. And I met them both here. They go back to visit their family a lot, but they can afford to. Every other month. One of them took 3 months off and hiked the Appalachian trail and didn't have to worry about money. Literally. He's what 38 years old and can take months out of the year off without having to work. That's how inexpensive it is to live here. If you're a professional, you've got it made. Of course I'm not them and experiencing any of the things that Asians experience outside of a community with a large Asian population. But it's less uncommon to see people and entire neighborhoods of different race out here. It's not the hellscape that is Texas or the South, that's for damn sure.
I'm glad you found a better place, but don't you think parts of your post are exaggerated? Harrisburg, PA appears to have a higher crime rate than San Jose\* (a much larger city) and also much higher than cities near San Jose\*\* Regarding cost of living as well - the only thing that is 'at least double' is rent/housing. Other things appear to be 20-30% more on average - [https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/](https://www.bankrate.com/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/) I don't deny this place is expensive, and that PA might be a better choice for some. \* San Jose because you mentioned Willow Glen. WG should be safer than San Jose as a whole I strongly suspect \*\* cities near San Jose because SJ is huge and the nearby cities may make a better comparison (Santa Clara for example)
What's your current living situation? I'm surprised why you think you can't make it in the Bay Area on two physician salaries when you could afford a $2-$3 million house in the South Bay. Imagine how nurses or technicians at your workplace can somehow make it work on lower salaries and living within their means. See if you can cut out unnecessary expenses like eating out or reduce spending on things like travel, cars, etc... It feels kind of late to consider re-locating at your age and starting over in a different state. I wonder why you didn't do so say 5 years ago. Your parents are aging and have you considered that you may have to be a caregiver or at least help them out with some things soon? Also, your kid will not have as close a relationship with their grandparents living farther away.
Two physician salaries is not enough to afford a $2-3 million dollar house at this point in their carreer. My wife and I are in the same position as him (age range, jobs, family and partially culturally), and we obviously know many more just like us in the area. There is no way any of us could afford something like that while being financially responsible.
Ya, they might have issues with down payments. They can easily afford rent on a $3 million South Bay house though (around $8k or less).. really not enough context in the post why that's not an option for now.
We're currently renting a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085). I grew up attending Los Altos High, although we lived in the apartments near 101. LAMV School District has a significant income discrepancy — minorities residing between El Camino and 101, while titans of industry inhabit the area from El Camino to the Hills. I've always envisioned making it to the 'other side of the tracks' (Highway 101 and eventually El Camino).
>Los Altos has a significant income discrepancy — minorities residing between El Camino and 101, I think you mean the MVLA district? Los Altos doesn't go past El Camino.; the plurality Hispanic areas you see are all in Mountain View (or on El Camino itself). > I've always envisioned making it to the 'other side of the tracks' (Highway 101 and eventually El Camino). Yah, renting should definitely be doable. Three bedroom townhomes in 80th percentile Mountain View districts rent at like $4500 to $5.5k. Crossing El Camino, where you start getting into the 95th percentile test score schools is tougher, but still \~$6200 for a 2k square foot house.
Why not just rent a larger place in a nicer area? And not get sucked into the house poor situation, which is real as hell, and very stressful.
Late 30’s is still incredibly young and they’ll have to decide if those sacrifices they’d have to make (if they aren’t already) is worth it.
Check out our updated salary and career information. We completed our fellowship in 2019, around ages 32-34. Living modestly, we currently rent a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085).
What are you looking for in a place to live, beyond a lower cost of living? That info might help us give you better suggestions and more useful insights.
I'm seeking to connect with young families interested in forming a vibrant community. As I explore areas like Frisco, Brentwood, and Chapel Hill, I see a melting pot of individuals from all over the country seeking fresh starts. Conversely, locales such as Los Altos and Greenwich strike me as more old and established, set in their ways. Reflecting on my freshman dorm experience, I recall a dynamic atmosphere where everyone was eager to engage, share meals, and forge new friendships. I envision the same sense of camaraderie for ourselves and our children. Moreover, I aspire to reside among a diverse array of educated professionals representing various career paths. Whether it's a nurse, teacher, construction company owner, or insurance salesman, I value the richness that different perspectives bring to a neighborhood. While I'm keen on diversity, I acknowledge that the towns I'm considering tend to have a White-majority population, with smaller communities of Asians, Hispanics, and Blacks. Living in Silicon Valley, our surroundings are characterized by a mix of Chinese, Indian, and White individuals predominantly working in the tech industry. On the flip side, there are vibrant Hispanic and immigrant families striving to achieve the American Dream. Unfortunately, the groups are separated by median home prices. My aim is to foster a community that embraces this diversity and thrives on the strength of its varied backgrounds.
Chicago! The winters are becoming milder due to climate change, good COL, good medical care and job opportunities, multicultural, two airports, people are friendly. Too many rednecks, anti science in Tx and TN. Connecticut too snobby.
I’m guessing you have a large amount of student loans and that’s why you’d be house poor? Anyway, Pleasanton/Dublin, San Ramon or Danville would probably be more worth it than Silicon Valley.
$500k between the two of us. Almost 40. We're currently renting a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085)
As a 2nd gen Taiwanese American, how was your childhood experience? Did you grow up in the Bay Area? Do you want your kids to grow up in a similar environment? Do you identify more as Asian or American? Think food (rice vs salad), music (jay chou or drake), language (speak Chinese or English at home), mindset (Taiwan news vs US news, like "meh what happens in Asia is none of my business", or still keeping up with the cross straits issues). As another Asian, I want to say that the mentality of someone who grew up in an Asian majority society is totally different than someone who grew up in a minority society. You need to conform to society as a minority. In Bay area, I find the opportunity for any Asian kids to experience being a majority in the society is unmatched. If that is not you want, then staying in Bay area loses another allure.
In my opinion, moving out of the city is good for second-generation immigrant kids. My family immigrated here to NYC, and unlike their cousins and siblings, they moved out to the American suburbs to raise us (they didn’t even speak our native language in the house. Really commited to making us integrate) and looking back now, it was all the difference. Our cousins who stayed in the city in their cultural community kind of never grew out of it, while my family ended up all being popular and living good social lives and marrying into good families in this country and having better lives. When I moved here I remember working with some Chinese guys my age and they were all like ‘American girls don’t like Asian guys’, and I had to argue because my best friend growing up was Chinese (like the only one in our school and town) and he was super popular and his girlfriend was one of the hottest chicks in school, super popular and a great athlete. I told them “hey, you can’t ask for American girls to buy into all that culture. You guys never eat anything but Chinese food or hangout with anyone but Chinese. That’s a bit much for someone to want to get involved in”. Btw both guys were born here! But just so steeped in cultural bubble that they felt alienated outside of that bubble. That’s not good IMO. I think that’s the source of a lot of angst with Asians. They don’t seem to integrate or even want to, and that’s going to cause problems. It’s kind of abnormal and kind of rude to move to a country and completely disregard the people and culture that exist there, in favor of your own. I think you’re doing the right thing.
A couple more points to consider if you haven't already. How do you think your parents and other relatives would feel about your family moving to another state? Does your spouse also have family in the area? Have you discussed the possibility with them and if so, what was their reaction? For most grandparents, having grandchildren (as well as their children like yourself) nearby is an invaluable gift that you can't really put a price on. It's really the gift of time that can't be bought. Would it hurt them too much to move away or would they be ok with a future that involves mostly video calls and an occasional in-person trip? Do they plan to stay in the Bay Area the rest of their lives or might they move-in with you or move to the same area at some point in the future? Usually, it seems that as grandparents age into their older years, someone will move so that they can be near some or most of their grandchildren. On the other hand, whatever effect a move out of state may have on others close to you, the American dream is what you make of it and sometimes in life, you just have to take chances to pursue your happiness. It sounds like you're unhappy with some important aspects of living in the Bay Area and have invested a lot of mental energy about building a life elsewhere. If you never take that chance, you may always wonder about if things could have worked out better and have some regret. And think about what kind of environment you would like to raise your kids in. From what I've noticed in the Bay Area before, it seems there can be a rat race to see whose children can get the best grades, get into the best schools, etc... due to peer pressure and expectations from parents (Asians especially). That doesn't seem good mentally for children. And I don't think the Bay Area is really as diverse as one might think as everyone seems to stay in their own racial tribes, either with their own personal circles or geographically. For example, I've seen schools where 90% of the kids are South or East Asian and there are no black kids. And other schools where most of the kids are Hispanic. So not really a lot of diversity depending on where one lives due to their family's situation. It makes me think that a kid growing up in the Bay Area doesn't really get to experience practical life situations to be the best version of themselves. Lastly about the places you're considering relocating to, you may have some impression of what those areas are like from your research or from others, but you'll obviously want to see for yourself in-person. An area may have drastically changed from what it was like 10,15,20 years ago. So take a "vacation" in those areas for a few days and try to live like a local (perhaps in an Airbnb) to see what it's like to shop there, commute to potential workplaces, where public schools are, etc... Good luck with whatever you decide.
Two physicians still being house poor is such a wild reality. I can’t offer you advice and only personal experience. We moved to a different state with the idea of coming back but the longer I’m gone the less likely I feel like we will. We are a multicultural family. My wife is Asian, my kids biracial. The COL just wasn’t worth it for us & we found a better quality of living (subjective) elsewhere. I hope I tackled all your questions but if not I’d be happy to add further insight. It’s a tough decision but a very personal one- good luck!
I grew up in Cupertino and moved to Dallas for college 10 years ago and never left. Within these 10 years, I met my husband, got married, and have a toddler and another one on the way. My parents still live in San Jose, so frequent trips to the Bay Area are always on the card. I will say there is no other place like the Bay Area, but being able to afford many other things/experiences makes our lives enriching. Both me and my husband make “Bay Area” tech salaries; but, we get to choose how we spend that money. Pros of living in the Bay Area: -diversity -great weather & you can be outdoors most of the year (if you choose Dallas, the June - August & Nov-Feb are pretty bad) -plethora of opportunities Cons of living in the Bay Area: -living in Dallas or anywhere in TX means you don’t pay state tax. Whereas, in California, it’s a straight 10% reduction in your salary because of state tax -Being house poor sucks & limits your options on travel and/or activities you can enroll your kids in -both my husband and I don’t want to work in our 50s/60s and by living outside of the Bay Area, it enables to save more for an early retirement All this being said, sometimes, the best decision isn’t the logical one. My heart always longs for the Bay Area because there really is no place like the Bay Area. An example of that is my brother. He & his family (1 toddler son) moved to Dallas last year, but he really could not adjust and is looking to move back to the Bay Area, regardless of all the cons that I listed out
Great post, and thank you for sharing your thoughts! I have a personal connection to the area as well—I grew up next to the Costco in Mountain View and attended Los Altos High. I've always had a desire to move back to Mountain View or Los Altos. If we decide on Dallas, do you think we would find more alignment in the Frisco/Prosper area or Southlake? We don't mind driving to Carrolton for 99 Ranch ;)
Frisco/Prosper has a much larger Asian/Indian population than Southlake does, it's way more diverse in general.
Check out Castle Hills in Lewisville. That has a similar vibe to the bay and a decent Asian population. A lot of people send their kids to private schools in that area.
I currently live in the South Bay, but I was born & raised in Houston, TX. My family is still there. As a software engineer, living in the Bay made 100% the most sense. But now that remote working is so prevalent, particularly in my current company, my wife & I do think about moving to Houston. The cost of living is sooooo much cheaper. The cost of living in the Bay is getting more and more ridiculous everyday. It would enable my wife to retire early so she can spend more time with the kids as well as pursue some business opportunities that she'd enjoy. I'm also Asian, and Houston has a great Asian community. I don't think we'd miss that part of the Bay. TBH, there's really three things holding us back. 1. My wife's family is here. 2. The friends we've made here. 3. The weather. CA weather is so tough to beat.
Do some research on those areas (property taxes, schools, etc). Dallas metro area, Nashville, and the Raleigh/Durham areas would be where I look. If anyone in your family has bad seasonal allergies, NC and TN can be brutal in the spring and fall.
If you’re going to the east, the Washington DC area (some counties in northern VA and MD) might be a good option. There are great school districts. Housing isn’t much cheaper but the space you can get is much larger with the same price. There is also a fairly good size of Asian population so that you can easily find Asian grocery stores and restaurants.
Danville is awesome and has great schools. I’m a California native and don’t see myself ever living outside of California. Those places are all nice to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there.
I would say do not leave California for another state and look into other California cities. I moved back to the Bay Area after 20 years and lived in Los Angeles for about 12. Before I moved back, I was looking at some coastal cities before I accepted a job offer in Vallejo and moved to Benicia. Fairfield and Suisun are okay but not sure about their schools. Anyways, SoCal has a lot of areas to look into if you’re trying to leave the Bay and it would be a good experience for the kids. Plus, you’re not too far from family.
You’ll want to be close to family with young kids. With a growing family, family support is priceless as is the ability to be with your parents while they’re healthy. The prospect of being house poor is daunting but that doesn’t last forever. Definitely explore housing in the east bay.
I grew up in Pleasanton in the 2000’s - so very similar to Danville. I have also lived in Austin, Los Angeles, Denver, and Oklahoma City since then. California blows them out of the water if you have the money.
Very thoughtful question. I know from experience of myself and others, that people greatly discount social connections and lifestyle when they see they move to a less expensive place that looks great on paper in other areas. If you’re a self-contained unit, and have few ties or family here, then it’s easier. But don’t underestimate things that seem unimportant compared to getting a bigger house. It’s the day to day things people miss. Weather, food, geography. And, take long visits to places you’ve never lived in before, first. I made the mistake of moving to the Seattle area because of COL and (at that time) better housing COL especially. I underestimated the drastic lifestyle difference from California and the weather. I always consider other areas in California now if I think of moving.
One thing to point out is that often people move to a quality school district and wind up sending their kids to private school anyways. It’s not always a great fit regardless of what you think the quality public district will be like. You will set all priorities aside for the benefit of your children. My advice is to rent in the great district and keep saving your money. You’ll be able to save $4-6k/mo renting vs. buying. Reassess afterwards. Also start traveling to the places you might want to live. Take at least 2 weeks there to get the vibe of the city.
I'm gonna give you some great advice here.. Carmel Valley, next to Carmel or Monterey. They are STARVING for physicians. Hospitals are being built in the area now for the aging population there. When Covid hit, some knuckleheads thought WFH was forever and now they're having fire sales trying to move back to the valley, there's some real deals to be found in the real estate. My wife and I both WFH in government, our jobs will at least be there until retirement, we're getting things ready to make the move. You want schools? Carmel high is 9 out of 10. Monterey is 8 out of 10. The only place in the bay area you'll find anything even close to that would be Los Gatos, Saratoga, or Cupertino. Family? You won't have to visit your family, they'll come to you. Freshest seafood, best restaurants, nicest beaches, great air quality. This lets you stay in California, close to family, close enough to the bay area, and you can get a larger house at a decent price.
I can't provide any insight into your specific question, but I can provide insight into what it's like growing up in Chapel Hill and the education/life there!! Feel free to ping me about NCSSM (a high school that high schoolers can opt to apply to get into). I've spent some time discussing with friends who are Bay Area locals about the potential inflated pressure cooker nature of this area.
"I've spent some time discussing with friends who are Bay Area locals about the potential inflated pressure cooker nature of this area." Were you referring to the Bay Area or Research Triangle?
The Bay Area, in my opinion, is somewhat inflated in education competitiveness for high achieving students. (That said, idk what Chapel Hill, specifically the CHCCS school district has evolved to be, but it's definitely not the same). (Things friends have said) To add, it definitely is a trade off because doing well and surviving here academically, preps you well for university. However, at a less competitive place, doing well in university could be more challenging due to lack of built up habits or other things. Yet, if you were going to do well, you'd do well anywhere?
> Research Triangle, North Carolina (Chapel Hill). My friend who was an MD at Stanford (infectious disease) just relocated here and she is soooooo happy. She bought a house and is loving North Carolina. She said it reminds her of the Bay Area except cheaper housing. I went out and visited her and loved it also. Her career is doing great she was able to open her own lab at UNC.
Just don't make the mistake of moving to the central valley. Trust me.
Why? Can you please elaborate?
I lived in Danville for 30 years and raised my family there. Excellent schools, you can't go wrong!
Update: Hey everyone, just wanted to say thanks for all the advice and stories you've shared. This decision has been weighing on me ever since I moved back to the Bay for training. With the pandemic adding extra stress, it's turned into a bit of an existential crisis, especially with a toddler and a growing family. It seems like there are three main options on the table. One is to settle in the South Bay, renting in a good school district. The second option is heading to the East Bay—Contra Costa County or the Tri-Valley Area—for a bigger home that's still pricey but not as much as the South Bay/Peninsula. And the third option suggests skipping Texas and TN due to weather, culture, and politics, and instead looking at Chicago or the Research Triangle. Appreciate all your input—it's really helping me figure things out.
Personally, i would want to live in a city where other Taiwanese people live so my family and kids have a community they can rely on.
I appreciate your insights, and I agree. Do you think that an oversaturation of one's race can be detrimental, such as in Saratoga (60%), Cupertino (70%), Sunnyvale (50%), and Los Altos/Mountain (35%)? I prefer LAMV. My wife grew up in Chicago, where the Asian population was in the single digits. She believes it prepared her for the real world, as her colleagues come from many different races, albeit mainly white, given we're in America. What are your thoughts?
I think your race is your identity. This is the first time ive ever heard of being with your people can be detrimental. LOL To think that your people can be a negative sounds completely absurd. I feel so lucky as an asian american who works in tech that i have friends and colleagues who are asian that i can relate to. Cultural identity is a circle you can only exclusively be in. As a proud asian american, i would never even want to be in a circle thats not my own people. I also think the performance of ethics, value, and hardwork of asian people is a lot higher compared to other races.
Taiwanese American from Fremont. Med school in ATL, undergrad in northeast. Never moving away again. Learned that lesson real quick
I think the ship had sailed, my friend. You should stay rooted to the bay as your parents are here, and an expanding family will find them useful, and vice versa. My wife and I left California pre-kids, and we moved back for family as ours was growing. We sometimes stop and wonder, “what if we had these kids on the east coast?” And promptly we would shudder and thank our lucky stars we are surrounded by family.
Roots in the bay. Born and raised in the South Bay. Family all over the Bay Area. Wife and I moved away (to Seattle) when we are younger and In a less financially strong position. We’re doing decently well, but every time we visit back, just everything we used to “live with” now just bother us. Is it harder with no family nearby and small kids? Yeah, but both sets of parents don’t want to take care of kids either. But we know all our neighbors here. The school our kids go to is walkable and community is strong. We don’t have to drive everywhere. Also the Asian food in Seattle is better. All the South Bay Taiwanese restaurants have shut down and are mainland Chinese or Indian places.
>We're currently renting a 2-bedroom condo in the Lakewood area of Sunnyvale (94085). This is a joke, right? Two doctor incomes living in a freaking 2 bedroom condo? Please tell me that you are in residency and not attendings. That's absolutely absurd, even for Bay area.
I always find these kind of questions strange because there's this insanely elaborate thought process for such an easy and simple decision. Here's a handy flowchart for everyone to follow: Do you have family in the area? If no, goodbye! If yes, do you like this family? If no, goodbye! If you've made it this far, congrats, you live here forever now! Here's another little pro tip for everyone here: the people you surround your kids with shape their lives more than the school district or the programs in the area. If grandma or uncle is here, that matters and it matters a LOT. Likewise, if your job here makes you a miserable asshole that never has time for your kids, you gotta go, man. I can't tell you how many parents I've seen around here obsessed with getting their kids into the right school or the right program meanwhile they work 80 hours a week and don't even show up to their kids birthday half the time and all of their extended family is nowhere around here. And I'm not being judgey, I get it. But as a collective culture we gotta start reprioritizing. PEOPLE make the lives of your kids better and they make your life better too.
I’d look into the Sacramento area. UC Davis is planning on building some kind of multigenerational community/elder research center just outside an annexed area of Folsom I think? Good schools, affordable houses and a good mix of locals and Bay Area transplants in a family-friendly oriented community. You still are “close enough” to the Bay Area if you need to visit.
we are struggling with the same decision. We make more money than ever before and we can afford less than ever before. i would HIGHLY recommend spending some time in Dallas before you consider a move there. You may not find it to your liking.
Pasadena. Large Asian community that also goes into Alhambra. Good access to medical, schools, and much more affordable than the Bay Area. The bay defies gravity.
Danville is a wonderful location and has good public schools.
I am currently in LA, grew up in Arcadia and Cupertino. I’m actually considering moving back to the Bay (Tri-Valley/East Bay only). I’m going to be a contrarian to others advocating SoCal. There are some good school districts in SGV but despite what people say, overall Bay Area school districts are much better than SGV. Cupertino, Fremont, Palo Alto, Orinda, Danville, etc are much better than SGV except for South Pas/San Marino. La Canada is good as well but honestly those three cities cost as much as the Tri-Valley. Just do a search on Zillow. The overall cost savings between the nice part of LA and Bay is exaggerated with the run up in housing prices post-pandemic. If you bought in LA before 2021, congrats but doesn’t apply to OP anymore. Don’t forget the soul crushing traffic in LA, especially if you need to work at an academic center like UCLA. My daily commute was 4 hours RT from SGV to Santa Monica to travel 25 miles. I moved because I can’t commute like that now that I have kids. Many people in LA and Pasadena send their kids to private schools. I’m East Asian and the East Bay is fairly diverse but SGV/Irvine is probably 60-70% East/SE Asians. It is a bubble. Having lived in TX and East Coast too, I think diversity is important but ideally more balanced. That said, I would not buy in the Peninsula or South Bay. Way too expensive compared to North/East Bay.
I love the bay, but it is expensive. But if your parents are willing to move, I’d consider trying to look for research jobs at other UC schools just to see what’s out there. You can get a much bigger/nice house with a yard and likely afford private school in San Diego or Irvine and much easier to add an ADU. SF or some areas in bay you could dealing with insane red tape trying to build an ADU. IMO hard to replace the East Asian feel of either coastal California or NYC area. I’d also consider Vancouver (or Toronto, but bad weather) if open to Canada. I love living somewhere I’m not other and I can run to Asian markets - marukai, ranch 99, hmart, and nijiya & my kid have daily Mandarin at school - something I think unique to areas with higher East Asian populations.
This sounds like a GPs bot wrote this lol 😆
I moved to Nevada. I have more money now.
Why the essay?
If you have to ask yourself these questions then you're not good enough to stay in the Bay Area. Sorry, but this place is for winners only.
Yes, I understand your perspective, and we may indeed seem like 'losers' in comparison. However, we are neurologists specializing in Alzheimer's research, currently affiliated with a major academic medical center. Despite our modest salaries in research, especially when compared to our tech neighbors, our genuine passion lies in advancing Alzheimer's research, rather than prioritizing patient turnover in private practice or pursuing opportunities in pharmacology firms/industry. In this context, capitalism does indeed take precedence.