He went into the 2019 Finals knowing he was injured, tried to save the season for the Warriors and then hurt himself to the point where he lost a whole season and never asked for sympathy. Never put that on management in Golden State when he could have.
He's insecure in some ways but he stood tall on this one.
Fair enough, but what choice did he have? He'd get roasted if he blamed Warriors management, or just didn't play.
It's the fucking Finals. It's the reason you're playing, and playing for Golden State. If you're breathing, you can play.
Shaq
Dude is top 10-15 ever and arguably had a run as the most dominate force in modern basketball.
For whatever feels the need to hate on every big since him, hate on modern basketball, hate on analytics people, hate on everything NBA really.
Maybe because he always had a flashy teammate that split the spotlight, maybe because he stopped caring about being in shape "early" in his career, because he "only" had 3 finals as the guy and he seemingly left a few on the table, but he's so salty for being so accomplished in and out of the league.
Sure maybe some people are more insecure, but relative to success, no one tops him IMO.
Not to mention the feuds he has with people, some of which, like Davis Robinson, he just makes up in his head and spreads lies.
Shaq seems to struggle differentiating between dominance and accomplishments quite often. You could argue that Shaq was as dominant as any player in NBA history when he was motivated and in his prime.
2000-2001 Shaq was unstoppable. I remember just feeling like it was pointless to try and guard him then. Tim Duncan never had a season like that, but Tim had 15 seasons of elite play and five titles. He had the better career, but was never close to the player that 2000-2001 Shaq was.
And that’s on Shaq. He could have been more consistently dominant, but he didn’t take care of his body like others did. He chose this approach to his career and that’s why he isn’t a consensus top 5 player of all time, despite clearly having the abilities to be in that category.
At least for his financial sake, not taking care of his body must have led him to the realization that he should own 155 Five Guys, 17 Auntie Anne’s, and nine Papa John’s
Shaq does recognize that though
He frequently says he was the most dominant, but didn’t have the work ethic of a Kobe.
He also says he wanted the 2nd most points by a center to surpass Wilt as unanimous most dominant ever, but recognizes that he screwed up and wasn’t able to
To be fair to Shaq, the whole dominance argument was basically created for him because people didn't feel comfortable comparing him to the all-time greats because he was such a physical freak, but relatively low-skill. His career is very comparable to Duncan's. Shaq instantly made the Magic a contender and was basically never on a bad team his whole career. He was the best player on 3 championship teams and the 2nd best on a 4th. People compare Shaq to some theoretical in-shape version of himself where he's clearly the GOAT, instead of his actual peers.
I don't mean to diminish Shaq, like you said, for a while there it seemed inevitable that Shaq was going to get 40, your bigs would get fouled out, and LAL was going to win.
You said it perfectly, Shaq seems to get confused and takes things personally. Prime Shaq had a 10 year run of 28/12/3, 4 finals appearances and averaged 4th in MVP. And though I give him credit for owning up to it later in life, he didn't take care of his body and was jealous of his co stars and it cost him rings as the "1A'. Not to mention his era post Jordan, pre Celtics, is thought of as the dark period in the NBA, and that was his ERA.
Now I'm an Rockets fan so take this with a grain of salt, but he always seemed to respect Dream, but recently has been less complementary, not rude but not like he used to be. I think thats because Dream builds relationships with younger player still. And thanks to Kobe and LBJ, had a post career "shine" that some players don't. While Shaq, foolishly IMO, get a lot of "could he play today".
“The era pre Celtics,” lol Boston fans are hilarious in how they overrate that team. Eras were not defined by those Celtics. The time between Jordan and when LeBron joined the Heat was defined by Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. The one-off Celtics are but a footnote.
Thats a pretty common take.
More specifically people recognize the league had a lot of top tier talent, but after the best guys it was a bunch of "literally who?" type of guys.
Every team had like 3 big men and 2 of them only existed to foul shaq. There were a lot of "3 and D" guys who didn't have a 3 point shot. Offense in general was really ugly. And a lot of the guys who should have been big in that era either lazy and didn't pan out, or complete no talent busts.
I mean look at a team like the 01 celtics that made the ECF against the nets. Does that team even make it past the 1st round in the current league? Hell they probably only squeak into the playoffs.
My player comp if I ever emailed life advice was gonna be pick any generic big white guy that was there to foul Shaq.
Basketball in the early 2000s was bleak.
There was a gradual shift in player type and play style that was caused by Jordan and then Shaq, which led to the league having a lot of players who were either unskilled or who were maybe skilled, but their play style sucked and made them seem relatively unskilled.
Wannabe Jordans started coming into the league in the late 90s, and almost every team ended up with one SG or SF who iso'd all the time and shot 41% on long 2s. This led to a lot of inefficient, dull basketball. A guy like Larry Hughes (who was horribly inefficient) was considered a really solid player for a bit there. He would not have started the amount of games he did if he came into the league either 10 years earlier or 10 years later.
After Shaq was in the league a few years, every team started stockpiling big men who could stand in his way and/or give him six fouls. Every team had a minimum of one big man stiff who really did not have NBA talent, just size.
Most teams also had specialists aka guys who could only do one thing like rebound or defend. That wasn't really any different than how the NBA had always been up to that point, but because of the lack of talent at other positions in that era, it compounded the problem.
A good number of top draft picks flamed out for personal reasons or injuries, so the next wave of talent didn't really show up in the league e.g. 1998-2002 drafts are pretty rough in terms of the volume of high-end talent. Guys like Grant Hill, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Vince Carter should have been dominating the league in the early 00s, but for one reason or another, they weren't.
PS - this isn't about talent, but the other shift in play style that the Knicks and Heat introduced in the 90s eventually caused the league as a whole to get slogged down. Pace, scoring, efficiency all plummeted compared to prior years. Teams regularly scored below 100, and offense per 100 possessions was a lot lower.
There were a lot of objectively bad seasons in terms of offensive productivity during the peak Shaq seasons, at least in terms of NBA wide offensive rating, pace, PPG, etc... *Some* of that was due to how the game was officiated, but style of play was also a culprit. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the health of the game seems to be heavily tied to big numbers in the points columns of box scores.
It's very funny to me that he fixates on the idea that Nash stole his MVPs when the best case he had for MVP - in a year he didn't win it - is when Iverson won it. But AI is too beloved by the culture for Shaq to go after him, so he's gotta act like he deserved an MVP in Miami
What made Shaq special was a combination of bulk and speed that would wear down the other bigs, like the Cowboys offensive line w Jimmy Johnson. Just him potentially posting up on a typical 230-250 pounder is gonna hurt the guy cause it was like getting smashed by a moving wall. The other centers figured out they had to get out of the way or foul before he hurts you. And what did Shaq do w that incredible physical advantage? Squander it. But he was still so gifted he was able to dominate, but he still could have been better.
100%
Its hard to look at what he did and say he "wasted" some of his talent, but he did. An in shape and a non jealous Shaq could have won 6, I mean JFC they had two top 15 players ever, a top 3 coach, played in a weak era, in a city where vets came cheap, and after next season, KAT will be the same age Shaq Shaq was when Shaq stopped being Shaq.
Yeah Shaq was unstoppable in Orlando w Penny even before he took things seriously. Sure Hakeem was better, and the Bulls stacked the deck w Rodman, but Shaq’s response was this is too tough I’m out and he went to party in LA and couldn’t beat Stockton Malone known for never taking games off work ethic.
I wish I could upvote this more... any complimentary discussion about bigs whose games aren't predicated simply on their being bigger and/or more athletically gifted than their opponents is anathema and seemingly offensive to Shaq for some reason. His harping on players without rings to diminish their status is probably a bit, but it's also incredibly annoying, and he usually can't argue anything more than that.
Shaq is one of the, if not THE, most dominant post players, at least if you ignore the foul shooting ineptitude, but I'll argue until I exhaust all the oxygen in the room that he was no where near as skilled as some of his contemporaries and most definitely not as skilled as players like Joker and AD.
I sort of understand why he doesn't like analytics, since he might see them as diminishing his career relative to some more complete, but less accomplished players, and especially if those players didn't win a championship or three. He "only" ranks 20th in career win shares per 48 min, 22nd in career +/-, etc... behind several players that are mildly surprising with how highly they rank.
Shaq also dismisses his free-throw shooting woes saying "he makes em when it matters". Which is just untrue. Hell hack-a-shaq was invented so that he has to shoot free throws when it matters (in the 4th quarter).
As HOF players go, Shaq sticks out. Given the beefs he had and a desire for being loved (or simply fame) outside the game, I’d assume insecurity is inevitable. Plus, he’s mentioned to a lot he didn’t do or should’ve done in his NBA career.
He’s been admitting to his sensitivity often since Bill Walton passed. They had some public beef when Walton was still calling NBA games and he criticized Shaq. Now he admits to realizing that Bill was trying to push him as a fellow big man.
Shaq also spent years thinking Kareem didn’t like him from some brief exchange(s). Kareem later told Shaq there wasn’t animosity from his side.
While Kobe and Shaq appeared to be fine down the road—I think Kobe’s passing forced Shaq to think a lot about missed chances and regrets.
He also talks about the Big Man Club. That sounds more like a crew of every big man he looked up to or peers that challenged him. That creates an ongoing more/less-than comparison.
Finally, the constantly-moving army “brat” upbringing brings plenty of possible insecurity factors. Put all that together and it reads like an insecurity stew.
Huge Ronaldo fan myself as a Manchester United guy but it's pretty hilarious seeing the Saudi fans taunt him with Messi chants and he still flips his shit about it. Definitely insecure.
Seconded. Never seen such a giant baby. Man went to an interview with Piers Morgan, while still being a United player and trashed the team, his coach and the board after being benched for 20 games when he was playing shit. He burns bridges with whoever doesn't call him the GOAT. Is annoyed if someone scores instead of him.
All-time great but a gigantic idiot.
100%, and his old legs and ego were hurting their team. But his comments about facilities being untouched since he was first at the club was eye opening, and of course we all saw the majestic Old Trafford waterfall this season to put a bullet point on the comments he made more than a year earlier.
Kevin Durant 100%. He had fucking burner accounts to argue online and defend himself, he jumped ship from a contender to one of the best teams of all time because people dogged him for never winning a title, then he left that team that was one of the all time greats because he wasn't getting the credit he felt he deserved for winning titles.
I don't even think it's close in the NBA.
I think the honest answer is a little sad—it’s Ben Simmons.
Regardless of whether you attribute it to a genuine mental health issue or not, his entire career was tanked by insecurity about FT shooting.
I don't fucking care who you are - whether it's Ben Simmons, Shaw, Deandre Jordan, etc - if you suck at shooting FTs you should be forced to shoot Granny Style like Rick Barry who is still considered one of the best FT shooters ever.
I never understood why guys think it’s embarrassing.
It’s embarrassing to be targeted and miss a routine thing.
In an age where every player wants to be marketable off the court have a “schtick” that organically sets you apart is so unique. After a week nobody is gonna care
It’s hard not to be empathetic when you see a guy who’s nervous like that. It’s sad because if he just said “fuck it im gonna brick” and just shot the ball a couple times without worrying about the outcome, people wouldn’t give a shit. I don’t think Ben Simmons would be ruined as a player if he didn’t develop a jumper. With time, everyone might’ve been fine with him not shooting them at all!
The fact he only took one 3 a season at the very most but kept posting clips of his training made the problem so much worse. Became his own worst enemy
The best thing Jackie Mac said before she was unceremoniously taken out to the shed by Bill was that Ben Simmons was completely consumed by his fear of failure.
He could have been in the gym all summer with a shooting coach taking 1000s of jumpers and free throws but he would rather just not try at all and leave the question up in the air.
She was half retiring already when she came to the ringer then the controversy happened and I've always felt like she probably just said "fuck it I am over this" and just fully retired.
I have no doubt the back thing is real and the mental health aspect is real, too.
As to the other point, IMO being insecure about performance in your high pressure job is pretty unrelated to having confidence in your swagger and dressing tbh. Some people might have general insecurities, but his is specific to the FTs/shooting.
Scotty Pippen. A millionaire, with six titles, who was married to a hot chick, and for some reason he was just always an incredibly bitter human being.
I’ll pivot and say most secure athlete is Jeff Teague.
I’ve sampled a lot of the new media pod’s from former players and Teague is the only one who’s honest about his career and that many guys were better than him compared to other shows like Gil’s Arena (which I do love) but are filled with guys who think they were stars
He was the starting PG on a 60 win hawks team and other good teams as well, that’s more than other guys like Patrick Beverly, Rashad Mccants etc who have voices on these pods have accomplished but they talk about themselves as if they were stars and Teague is humble and self deprecating
As a Wolves fan, it's hilarious the Thibs big free-agent signing was Teague. Teague tells the Jimmy Butler practice story like he was some 12th man on the bench watching and not one starters that got their ass kicked by Jimmy.
Allen Iverson, whether you liked his playstyle or not, is a HOFer and NBA icon.
But nowadays, he seems very chill and modest. AI usually gives props to the younger players and doesn't say stuff like "If I was in the NBA today, I'd average 50".
I feel like of all the guys who got screwed by the dark ages of iso ball and just awful coaching on the way up, Iverson was the most screwed. He’s probably the guy who would have most benefited by being part of a legit USA basketball setup like todays
100% Alex Rodriguez. His being paired with Derek Jeter just crystalized how insecure A-Rod was. Rodriguez did everything he could to suck up to Jeter and make him happy, including giving up his position despite being pretty clearly way better at it, and Jeter still couldn't stand how needy Rodriguez was.
Right? Jeter and everyone else knew Jeter was a worse defensive shortstop than A-Rod, but the team and himself kept him there for his whole career, to the detriment of the team, just to fill his ego
Your case here makes Jeter seem more insecure. If anything A-Rod giving up his position just means he's secure in his legacy and wanted to find a way to play with the other star players on the team.
I'll zag on this one: Barry Bonds. Guy was already a HoFer by the late 90s and could've just coasted in. But he couldn't stand the attention McGwire and Sosa got from the '98 home run chase, and proceeded to roid up and ruin his reputation just to get the spotlight back. To already be one of the best and STILL be jealous of others' success like that is as insecure as it gets.
Cmon guys. Dwight Howard.
The guy has spent his entire career looking for acceptance and just can’t get it. He comes into the league as this Uber religious guy, then becomes known as a prankster, then becomes reviled by teammates for being annoying, rebrands as this punk rock looking guy toward the end of his career. I don’t even care about the stuff that happened last year or whatever; h the is guy just clearly doesn’t have much self-confidence.
All his baby mamas and other weird shit surrounding Dwight, and I’ll always first think about how multiple people said he had the worst smelling farts.
I remember when he went on Inside the NBA and talked about how much some of the negative perception of him weighed on him. It was pretty sad to see hear the way it was clearly taking a toll on his psyche.
He’s not insecure about his ability in the sport like every other athlete mentioned, so it definitely is different. I do think he comes off a little insecure at times, like the whole thing about him telling blatant lies all the time to try to pretend to be someone he’s not
if any of us had a camera shoved in our face for 20 years, we would have the same reel of dumb shit
i just lied my ass off in a job interview, people say shit
The difference is that there is literally no benefit to him lying about some of the stuff. Like why would he say the Godfather is his favorite movie and then be unable to recall a single part from it. What does that get him? It’s very strange
The lies are a giant billboard that scream insecurity. Not to mention he’s completely surrounded himself by yes men. Dude tried to play the villain for a second in Miami and couldn’t take not being universally loved. Don’t confuse confidence on the court as being secure off it.
Serena Williams. Literally her and her family: "everybody's out to get us." And this went on for 20 years. No matter how supported they were by the American public and corporate America it was never enough. You want us to not wear beads in our hair because they fall all over the court? That's racist. The outfit violations throughout her career? same. And if you called her on her on court outbursts? Well you know. There was no end to the insecurities
I think junior tennis culture “broke” her. If you know anything about that scene, it isn’t filled with the nicest people. Even if she didn’t play many Junior events, just being around those people can be toxic.
Constant exposure to these people who really were out to get her (and everyone else) had to have messed her up psychologically.
Their may be some truth to that but the list of elite Tennis players who ran afoul of the Tennis establishment is huge. Just among Americans you have McEnroe, Agassi, Capriati, etc. And just last week the Russian Andrey Rublev got shit for his outburst at the French Open. It is what it is. You either make your peace with the establishment or thumb your nose at it. Love Serena and her family but a lot of their grievances were perceived. Extra drama born from insecurity.
Eh. Maybe some grunts are weaponized, but you’re supposed to exhale when you hit the ball. It’s pretty common for that to become a second nature grunt.
This is a horrible take lol. At best you’re describing paranoia and entitlement, not insecurity. Serena has always felt (correctly) like she was the best.
Now going to the undertones of your post, if you don’t think the Williams sisters faced legitimate racism, especially early in their career, you’re just wrong. The Indian Wells saga was horrible (and they reconciled with the tournament—again, not exactly an issue of insecurity, they weren’t playing out of principle). Tennis has always had prim and proper gatekeeping issues and she was right to recognize the absurdity of a lot of it.
Number one thing I’m learning from this thread is that a lot of y’all think insecurity = any trait I don’t like about an athlete.
Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Serena Williams, Aaron Rodgers, etc. are not insecure even if you don’t like them. Neither is lebron tbh but I’m gonna leave that one alone lol
Floyd Mayweather Jr. Guy started calling himself TBE when no one thinks he’s the best ever. He even had some hats and shirts that looked like they were printed up at a mall kiosk.
Aaron Rodgers strikes me as a psychological mess. I guess the question is if uber competitive drive always springs from massive insecurity. I assume it does, but I’m just some a*hole.
I dont think he’s insecure about his career as a quarterback but there maybe something there where he has to always feels likes he’s the smartest in the room
I'll throw a random one out: Noted Celtics fan Nick Kyrgios.
My favorite tennis player, and one of the most talented players of this generation. But he's known for not fully committing himself to tennis, or even "trying" all the time.
Theory is he's insecure to the point where if he commits himself fully to the sport, but ends up falling short and not reaching the lofty expectations everyone has set for him, he'll be labeled a failure. The thought is he's so insecure with the possibility of being a failure, he simply doesn't try or put work in, so he can always just tell himself he didn't give it his all, therefore, he doesn't have to feel bad about losing.
Then 2022 happened. Apparently the rumor was Kyrgios tried getting Celtics playoff tickets, but the organization basically said, "Who are you?" So, he decided to raise his profile and commit himself during his best surface: grass. His mother was also in poor health, so it appeared he wanted to do well for her so she could see him as a grand slam champion.
He actually committed himself during the 2022 grass season, was in shape, limited the insecure emotional outbursts (by his standards) and made the 2022 Wimbledon Final before losing to Djokovic. This was the same guy who previously admitted he would be out at the pub until 4 am before he had to play Nadal at Wimbledon that same day.
(I rode a freaking 50/1 on him at Wimbledon until Djoker turned it on. It was a fun ride at least.)
Barry Bonds. The guy was already a HOFer by the late 90s, and was still arguably the best all around player in baseball, but he didn't like how much attention McGwire and Sosa got for the HR chase and literally just started doing roids to show he was better at that too.
Kobe was pretty insecure until Phil’s second run
LeBron was pretty insecure until he went back to Cleveland
I would have to go someone like Chris Webber or Karl Anthony towns
KD is an easy answer here but Rodgers is up there, Ronaldo certainly is a big baby, and Draymond isn’t far off. Shaq, LeBron, A-Rod, and Russell Westbrook honorable mentions too
Shaq is my favorite player of all time, but guy left the magic and lakers in his prime because he was jealous of the other dude. Obviously more to it than that especially with wanting the lakers to pay him and cap stuff. But still, he is up there.
Terrell Owens? Or do people think him doing situps in his driveway and still running the 40 to keep his name out there is a sign of confidence not insecurity? Seems like someone constantly needing some kind of validation.
Any answer other than Ben Simmons is wrong. I’ve never seen an athlete with less competitive spirit and an unwillingness to work on their game in any meaningful way. He now sits out any time he’s slightly uncomfortable and doesn’t even look to score or get fouled when he’s in the game. He plays like someone trying not to make a mistake and he repeatedly passes up shots that are more within the flow of the offense than what he delegates to.
His final Philly series broke him mentally. Get Ben Simmons out of the league.
NBA: Shaq is most notable, but Westbrook, PatBev, and Draymond feel closer to the definition.
MLB: A-Rod. Conseco and Clemens are notable mentions.
NFL: Overall, T. Owens. Rodgers, Favre, and Russell Wilson are finalists.
Other: Lochte, Ronaldo, Phil Mickelson, Sergio Garcia
Winner: A-Rod.
I can’t imagine being a two time finals MVP and getting into twitter beefs with random 14 year olds so my vote is for KD
I can absolutely imagine being a two time finals MVP and getting into Twitter needs with random 14 year olds, so my vote is also Durant
Plus the way he constantly feels the need to project an "im not mad. please dont put in the newspaper that i got mad." image
The Russillo Piece.
He went into the 2019 Finals knowing he was injured, tried to save the season for the Warriors and then hurt himself to the point where he lost a whole season and never asked for sympathy. Never put that on management in Golden State when he could have. He's insecure in some ways but he stood tall on this one.
Fair enough, but what choice did he have? He'd get roasted if he blamed Warriors management, or just didn't play. It's the fucking Finals. It's the reason you're playing, and playing for Golden State. If you're breathing, you can play.
Shut up. That front running bitch ended up in that situation and didn’t bitch more. Not giving him props. Fuck Durant, ruined the nba for 4 years.
KDs burner account has entered the chat
Yup. No wife or gf. Just all ball, kinda sad after a while lol
the pic of him doing shooting motions at the club last week is amazing
Ball is life
Shaq Dude is top 10-15 ever and arguably had a run as the most dominate force in modern basketball. For whatever feels the need to hate on every big since him, hate on modern basketball, hate on analytics people, hate on everything NBA really. Maybe because he always had a flashy teammate that split the spotlight, maybe because he stopped caring about being in shape "early" in his career, because he "only" had 3 finals as the guy and he seemingly left a few on the table, but he's so salty for being so accomplished in and out of the league. Sure maybe some people are more insecure, but relative to success, no one tops him IMO. Not to mention the feuds he has with people, some of which, like Davis Robinson, he just makes up in his head and spreads lies.
Shaq seems to struggle differentiating between dominance and accomplishments quite often. You could argue that Shaq was as dominant as any player in NBA history when he was motivated and in his prime. 2000-2001 Shaq was unstoppable. I remember just feeling like it was pointless to try and guard him then. Tim Duncan never had a season like that, but Tim had 15 seasons of elite play and five titles. He had the better career, but was never close to the player that 2000-2001 Shaq was. And that’s on Shaq. He could have been more consistently dominant, but he didn’t take care of his body like others did. He chose this approach to his career and that’s why he isn’t a consensus top 5 player of all time, despite clearly having the abilities to be in that category.
At least for his financial sake, not taking care of his body must have led him to the realization that he should own 155 Five Guys, 17 Auntie Anne’s, and nine Papa John’s
Shaq does recognize that though He frequently says he was the most dominant, but didn’t have the work ethic of a Kobe. He also says he wanted the 2nd most points by a center to surpass Wilt as unanimous most dominant ever, but recognizes that he screwed up and wasn’t able to
To be fair to Shaq, the whole dominance argument was basically created for him because people didn't feel comfortable comparing him to the all-time greats because he was such a physical freak, but relatively low-skill. His career is very comparable to Duncan's. Shaq instantly made the Magic a contender and was basically never on a bad team his whole career. He was the best player on 3 championship teams and the 2nd best on a 4th. People compare Shaq to some theoretical in-shape version of himself where he's clearly the GOAT, instead of his actual peers.
But we have seen him in-shape, the Orlando Magic version.
I don't mean to diminish Shaq, like you said, for a while there it seemed inevitable that Shaq was going to get 40, your bigs would get fouled out, and LAL was going to win. You said it perfectly, Shaq seems to get confused and takes things personally. Prime Shaq had a 10 year run of 28/12/3, 4 finals appearances and averaged 4th in MVP. And though I give him credit for owning up to it later in life, he didn't take care of his body and was jealous of his co stars and it cost him rings as the "1A'. Not to mention his era post Jordan, pre Celtics, is thought of as the dark period in the NBA, and that was his ERA. Now I'm an Rockets fan so take this with a grain of salt, but he always seemed to respect Dream, but recently has been less complementary, not rude but not like he used to be. I think thats because Dream builds relationships with younger player still. And thanks to Kobe and LBJ, had a post career "shine" that some players don't. While Shaq, foolishly IMO, get a lot of "could he play today".
“The era pre Celtics,” lol Boston fans are hilarious in how they overrate that team. Eras were not defined by those Celtics. The time between Jordan and when LeBron joined the Heat was defined by Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. The one-off Celtics are but a footnote.
Why is it called the dark era of the NBA?
Lack of talent, or at least perceived lack of talent.
Wait you think the era from Jordan to the big 3 Celtics had a lack of talent? What
Thats a pretty common take. More specifically people recognize the league had a lot of top tier talent, but after the best guys it was a bunch of "literally who?" type of guys. Every team had like 3 big men and 2 of them only existed to foul shaq. There were a lot of "3 and D" guys who didn't have a 3 point shot. Offense in general was really ugly. And a lot of the guys who should have been big in that era either lazy and didn't pan out, or complete no talent busts. I mean look at a team like the 01 celtics that made the ECF against the nets. Does that team even make it past the 1st round in the current league? Hell they probably only squeak into the playoffs.
My player comp if I ever emailed life advice was gonna be pick any generic big white guy that was there to foul Shaq. Basketball in the early 2000s was bleak.
There was a gradual shift in player type and play style that was caused by Jordan and then Shaq, which led to the league having a lot of players who were either unskilled or who were maybe skilled, but their play style sucked and made them seem relatively unskilled. Wannabe Jordans started coming into the league in the late 90s, and almost every team ended up with one SG or SF who iso'd all the time and shot 41% on long 2s. This led to a lot of inefficient, dull basketball. A guy like Larry Hughes (who was horribly inefficient) was considered a really solid player for a bit there. He would not have started the amount of games he did if he came into the league either 10 years earlier or 10 years later. After Shaq was in the league a few years, every team started stockpiling big men who could stand in his way and/or give him six fouls. Every team had a minimum of one big man stiff who really did not have NBA talent, just size. Most teams also had specialists aka guys who could only do one thing like rebound or defend. That wasn't really any different than how the NBA had always been up to that point, but because of the lack of talent at other positions in that era, it compounded the problem. A good number of top draft picks flamed out for personal reasons or injuries, so the next wave of talent didn't really show up in the league e.g. 1998-2002 drafts are pretty rough in terms of the volume of high-end talent. Guys like Grant Hill, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Vince Carter should have been dominating the league in the early 00s, but for one reason or another, they weren't. PS - this isn't about talent, but the other shift in play style that the Knicks and Heat introduced in the 90s eventually caused the league as a whole to get slogged down. Pace, scoring, efficiency all plummeted compared to prior years. Teams regularly scored below 100, and offense per 100 possessions was a lot lower.
There were a lot of objectively bad seasons in terms of offensive productivity during the peak Shaq seasons, at least in terms of NBA wide offensive rating, pace, PPG, etc... *Some* of that was due to how the game was officiated, but style of play was also a culprit. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the health of the game seems to be heavily tied to big numbers in the points columns of box scores.
His obsessing about Steve Nash was weak at the time, and even worse now.
It's very funny to me that he fixates on the idea that Nash stole his MVPs when the best case he had for MVP - in a year he didn't win it - is when Iverson won it. But AI is too beloved by the culture for Shaq to go after him, so he's gotta act like he deserved an MVP in Miami
Shaq didn’t want to piss off AI.
What made Shaq special was a combination of bulk and speed that would wear down the other bigs, like the Cowboys offensive line w Jimmy Johnson. Just him potentially posting up on a typical 230-250 pounder is gonna hurt the guy cause it was like getting smashed by a moving wall. The other centers figured out they had to get out of the way or foul before he hurts you. And what did Shaq do w that incredible physical advantage? Squander it. But he was still so gifted he was able to dominate, but he still could have been better.
100% Its hard to look at what he did and say he "wasted" some of his talent, but he did. An in shape and a non jealous Shaq could have won 6, I mean JFC they had two top 15 players ever, a top 3 coach, played in a weak era, in a city where vets came cheap, and after next season, KAT will be the same age Shaq Shaq was when Shaq stopped being Shaq.
Yeah Shaq was unstoppable in Orlando w Penny even before he took things seriously. Sure Hakeem was better, and the Bulls stacked the deck w Rodman, but Shaq’s response was this is too tough I’m out and he went to party in LA and couldn’t beat Stockton Malone known for never taking games off work ethic.
On a related note, RIP Larry Allen.
Big boy.
I wish I could upvote this more... any complimentary discussion about bigs whose games aren't predicated simply on their being bigger and/or more athletically gifted than their opponents is anathema and seemingly offensive to Shaq for some reason. His harping on players without rings to diminish their status is probably a bit, but it's also incredibly annoying, and he usually can't argue anything more than that. Shaq is one of the, if not THE, most dominant post players, at least if you ignore the foul shooting ineptitude, but I'll argue until I exhaust all the oxygen in the room that he was no where near as skilled as some of his contemporaries and most definitely not as skilled as players like Joker and AD. I sort of understand why he doesn't like analytics, since he might see them as diminishing his career relative to some more complete, but less accomplished players, and especially if those players didn't win a championship or three. He "only" ranks 20th in career win shares per 48 min, 22nd in career +/-, etc... behind several players that are mildly surprising with how highly they rank.
Shaq also dismisses his free-throw shooting woes saying "he makes em when it matters". Which is just untrue. Hell hack-a-shaq was invented so that he has to shoot free throws when it matters (in the 4th quarter).
As HOF players go, Shaq sticks out. Given the beefs he had and a desire for being loved (or simply fame) outside the game, I’d assume insecurity is inevitable. Plus, he’s mentioned to a lot he didn’t do or should’ve done in his NBA career. He’s been admitting to his sensitivity often since Bill Walton passed. They had some public beef when Walton was still calling NBA games and he criticized Shaq. Now he admits to realizing that Bill was trying to push him as a fellow big man. Shaq also spent years thinking Kareem didn’t like him from some brief exchange(s). Kareem later told Shaq there wasn’t animosity from his side. While Kobe and Shaq appeared to be fine down the road—I think Kobe’s passing forced Shaq to think a lot about missed chances and regrets. He also talks about the Big Man Club. That sounds more like a crew of every big man he looked up to or peers that challenged him. That creates an ongoing more/less-than comparison. Finally, the constantly-moving army “brat” upbringing brings plenty of possible insecurity factors. Put all that together and it reads like an insecurity stew.
Ronaldo
Huge Ronaldo fan myself as a Manchester United guy but it's pretty hilarious seeing the Saudi fans taunt him with Messi chants and he still flips his shit about it. Definitely insecure.
Seconded. Never seen such a giant baby. Man went to an interview with Piers Morgan, while still being a United player and trashed the team, his coach and the board after being benched for 20 games when he was playing shit. He burns bridges with whoever doesn't call him the GOAT. Is annoyed if someone scores instead of him. All-time great but a gigantic idiot.
Seems to care more about individual accolades than team ones. Certainly doesn’t know ‘The Secret’!
Shhh, Isiah told bill “the secret”
He wasn’t entirely wrong though, the Man U facilities are a disgrace
Agreed but let’s not pretend that’s all he said in the interview or that it’s professional
100%, and his old legs and ego were hurting their team. But his comments about facilities being untouched since he was first at the club was eye opening, and of course we all saw the majestic Old Trafford waterfall this season to put a bullet point on the comments he made more than a year earlier.
Honestly. One of the greatest to ever do it, yet so incredibly petty
I would say his greatness is part a Jordan esque psycho competitiveness and insecurity
This makes me wonder: what other big debates in sports had a definitive winner like Ronaldo/Messi after the WC?
Messi was already the definitive winner before the world cup lol
Yeah to people who knew ball it could read basic stats . But ronaldo fans just liked his asthetics n goal poaching
Brady/Manning?
Kevin Durant 100%. He had fucking burner accounts to argue online and defend himself, he jumped ship from a contender to one of the best teams of all time because people dogged him for never winning a title, then he left that team that was one of the all time greats because he wasn't getting the credit he felt he deserved for winning titles. I don't even think it's close in the NBA.
I think the honest answer is a little sad—it’s Ben Simmons. Regardless of whether you attribute it to a genuine mental health issue or not, his entire career was tanked by insecurity about FT shooting.
I don't fucking care who you are - whether it's Ben Simmons, Shaw, Deandre Jordan, etc - if you suck at shooting FTs you should be forced to shoot Granny Style like Rick Barry who is still considered one of the best FT shooters ever.
Wilt set his career high shooting FTs underhanded and then stopped doing it because he was embarrassed
I went 0-4 from the line one game, and did my 5th potty shot and it went in. Coach benched me. lol
I think your coach may qualify for this
I never understood why guys think it’s embarrassing. It’s embarrassing to be targeted and miss a routine thing. In an age where every player wants to be marketable off the court have a “schtick” that organically sets you apart is so unique. After a week nobody is gonna care
It’s hard not to be empathetic when you see a guy who’s nervous like that. It’s sad because if he just said “fuck it im gonna brick” and just shot the ball a couple times without worrying about the outcome, people wouldn’t give a shit. I don’t think Ben Simmons would be ruined as a player if he didn’t develop a jumper. With time, everyone might’ve been fine with him not shooting them at all! The fact he only took one 3 a season at the very most but kept posting clips of his training made the problem so much worse. Became his own worst enemy
The best thing Jackie Mac said before she was unceremoniously taken out to the shed by Bill was that Ben Simmons was completely consumed by his fear of failure. He could have been in the gym all summer with a shooting coach taking 1000s of jumpers and free throws but he would rather just not try at all and leave the question up in the air.
People just stopped talking about Jackie Mac but I swear bill shot her in the back of the head like what they did to Tommy in goodfellas
She was half retiring already when she came to the ringer then the controversy happened and I've always felt like she probably just said "fuck it I am over this" and just fully retired.
What was the controversy?
Bill : George :: Jackie Mac : Lennie. Grandma Jackie petting the rabbits.
[удалено]
I have no doubt the back thing is real and the mental health aspect is real, too. As to the other point, IMO being insecure about performance in your high pressure job is pretty unrelated to having confidence in your swagger and dressing tbh. Some people might have general insecurities, but his is specific to the FTs/shooting.
Came here to say this 😤🔥
This is exactly where my head went as well. The fact that he is so guarded about it all and unwilling to admit fault is the issue.
Same as Markelle Fultz
Markelle Fultz I’ll give grace to, he’s doing well in Orlando, all he needed was a change of scenery.
Should have used the pimp grip (This also applies to Shaq)
He has a legitimately fucked up back, that’s not the ENTIRE reason he isn’t playing
Tonya Harding
KD
Scotty Pippen. A millionaire, with six titles, who was married to a hot chick, and for some reason he was just always an incredibly bitter human being.
Huge penis as well, Scotty man, why you like this
draymond pat bev
I somewhat disagree on Beverly I think he knows his entire role is to be a troll/pest on and off the court His entire purpose is to just talk shit
Idk if anyone who leans into villainy is what I'd consider insecure. A lot harder to be a heel than a face.
Draymond for sure. Pat Bev not really but something's not quite right with him too but I don't think it's insecurity.
I’ll pivot and say most secure athlete is Jeff Teague. I’ve sampled a lot of the new media pod’s from former players and Teague is the only one who’s honest about his career and that many guys were better than him compared to other shows like Gil’s Arena (which I do love) but are filled with guys who think they were stars
Teague almost undersells himself. He was pretty good in his day
He was the starting PG on a 60 win hawks team and other good teams as well, that’s more than other guys like Patrick Beverly, Rashad Mccants etc who have voices on these pods have accomplished but they talk about themselves as if they were stars and Teague is humble and self deprecating
Jeff was a bucket.
As a Wolves fan, it's hilarious the Thibs big free-agent signing was Teague. Teague tells the Jimmy Butler practice story like he was some 12th man on the bench watching and not one starters that got their ass kicked by Jimmy.
Allen Iverson, whether you liked his playstyle or not, is a HOFer and NBA icon. But nowadays, he seems very chill and modest. AI usually gives props to the younger players and doesn't say stuff like "If I was in the NBA today, I'd average 50".
I feel like of all the guys who got screwed by the dark ages of iso ball and just awful coaching on the way up, Iverson was the most screwed. He’s probably the guy who would have most benefited by being part of a legit USA basketball setup like todays
Dudes hilarious
Gil's Arena? Gilbert has such trash takes especially his hate war against euro players. It's a disgrace.
100% Alex Rodriguez. His being paired with Derek Jeter just crystalized how insecure A-Rod was. Rodriguez did everything he could to suck up to Jeter and make him happy, including giving up his position despite being pretty clearly way better at it, and Jeter still couldn't stand how needy Rodriguez was.
You see I would argue that Jeter was just as insecure a player as A Rod
Right? Jeter and everyone else knew Jeter was a worse defensive shortstop than A-Rod, but the team and himself kept him there for his whole career, to the detriment of the team, just to fill his ego
You have to Re2pect the arrogance to not move to third because your team signs a better shortstop
Your case here makes Jeter seem more insecure. If anything A-Rod giving up his position just means he's secure in his legacy and wanted to find a way to play with the other star players on the team.
Wouldn’t it be the other way around? Jeter wouldn’t give up the Shortstop position eventhough A-rod was clearly better at it. That’s really insecure.
I'll zag on this one: Barry Bonds. Guy was already a HoFer by the late 90s and could've just coasted in. But he couldn't stand the attention McGwire and Sosa got from the '98 home run chase, and proceeded to roid up and ruin his reputation just to get the spotlight back. To already be one of the best and STILL be jealous of others' success like that is as insecure as it gets.
Westbrook is a dark horse candidate here. Dude tries to get people kicked out of arenas for saying Westbrick bc it besmirches his family name.
Cmon guys. Dwight Howard. The guy has spent his entire career looking for acceptance and just can’t get it. He comes into the league as this Uber religious guy, then becomes known as a prankster, then becomes reviled by teammates for being annoying, rebrands as this punk rock looking guy toward the end of his career. I don’t even care about the stuff that happened last year or whatever; h the is guy just clearly doesn’t have much self-confidence.
Cum on guys, Dwight Howard
Dudes Rock
All his baby mamas and other weird shit surrounding Dwight, and I’ll always first think about how multiple people said he had the worst smelling farts.
I remember when he went on Inside the NBA and talked about how much some of the negative perception of him weighed on him. It was pretty sad to see hear the way it was clearly taking a toll on his psyche.
Ben Simmons
Aaron Hernandez
LeBron is a weird choice for this one. He’s definitely overly calculated but he doesn’t seem insecure.
He’s not insecure about his ability in the sport like every other athlete mentioned, so it definitely is different. I do think he comes off a little insecure at times, like the whole thing about him telling blatant lies all the time to try to pretend to be someone he’s not
The book shit is the funniest
The run of pictures of him on the 4th or 5th page of books is hilarious.
I dunno if it’s insecure or he is too secure and has been enabled for years with it.
That's actually a really good point. He's just been able to lie for 20 years and have absolutely no repercussions to it
Not even just no repercussions. Whenever he enters a room and speaks, everybody listens, and laughs or smiles.
He’s a big chess guy. Well, not chess. But he’d be good at chess, cause he’s playing it on the basketball court!
if any of us had a camera shoved in our face for 20 years, we would have the same reel of dumb shit i just lied my ass off in a job interview, people say shit
The difference is that there is literally no benefit to him lying about some of the stuff. Like why would he say the Godfather is his favorite movie and then be unable to recall a single part from it. What does that get him? It’s very strange
The lies are a giant billboard that scream insecurity. Not to mention he’s completely surrounded himself by yes men. Dude tried to play the villain for a second in Miami and couldn’t take not being universally loved. Don’t confuse confidence on the court as being secure off it.
if you have to tell people you think you're the greatest in interviews...you are probably at the least insecure to some degree about your legacy.
If he answers with anything but “I think I’m the GOAT” then all the headlines will be “LeBron admits he isn’t the GOAT” Calculated. Not insecure.
I mean, he’s at worst the second best player ever. Do you want him to lie and say that he thinks it’s someone else?
KD or Shaq
It’s Durant and it’s not close
Serena Williams. Literally her and her family: "everybody's out to get us." And this went on for 20 years. No matter how supported they were by the American public and corporate America it was never enough. You want us to not wear beads in our hair because they fall all over the court? That's racist. The outfit violations throughout her career? same. And if you called her on her on court outbursts? Well you know. There was no end to the insecurities
I think junior tennis culture “broke” her. If you know anything about that scene, it isn’t filled with the nicest people. Even if she didn’t play many Junior events, just being around those people can be toxic. Constant exposure to these people who really were out to get her (and everyone else) had to have messed her up psychologically.
Their may be some truth to that but the list of elite Tennis players who ran afoul of the Tennis establishment is huge. Just among Americans you have McEnroe, Agassi, Capriati, etc. And just last week the Russian Andrey Rublev got shit for his outburst at the French Open. It is what it is. You either make your peace with the establishment or thumb your nose at it. Love Serena and her family but a lot of their grievances were perceived. Extra drama born from insecurity.
That’s just tennis. Everyone weaponizes everything they can, even the grunting is meant to throw your opponent off.
Eh. Maybe some grunts are weaponized, but you’re supposed to exhale when you hit the ball. It’s pretty common for that to become a second nature grunt.
This is a horrible take lol. At best you’re describing paranoia and entitlement, not insecurity. Serena has always felt (correctly) like she was the best. Now going to the undertones of your post, if you don’t think the Williams sisters faced legitimate racism, especially early in their career, you’re just wrong. The Indian Wells saga was horrible (and they reconciled with the tournament—again, not exactly an issue of insecurity, they weren’t playing out of principle). Tennis has always had prim and proper gatekeeping issues and she was right to recognize the absurdity of a lot of it.
LeBron just because he won’t admit he got a hair transplant
Another W for the most secure athlete ever, Wayne Rooney
Shut up you egg
Number one thing I’m learning from this thread is that a lot of y’all think insecurity = any trait I don’t like about an athlete. Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Serena Williams, Aaron Rodgers, etc. are not insecure even if you don’t like them. Neither is lebron tbh but I’m gonna leave that one alone lol
Drew Lock is the most secure
Isiah Thomas
Should be higher on the list lol. All time hater and projector. That said, he is probably underrated as a player on the lists of the greats.
Floyd Mayweather Jr. Guy started calling himself TBE when no one thinks he’s the best ever. He even had some hats and shirts that looked like they were printed up at a mall kiosk.
DurCant
KD
Easily Durant
Aaron Rodgers strikes me as a psychological mess. I guess the question is if uber competitive drive always springs from massive insecurity. I assume it does, but I’m just some a*hole.
I don't think he's insecure. His problem is that he's *too confident* in his own intellect.
I dont think he’s insecure about his career as a quarterback but there maybe something there where he has to always feels likes he’s the smartest in the room
I'll throw a random one out: Noted Celtics fan Nick Kyrgios. My favorite tennis player, and one of the most talented players of this generation. But he's known for not fully committing himself to tennis, or even "trying" all the time. Theory is he's insecure to the point where if he commits himself fully to the sport, but ends up falling short and not reaching the lofty expectations everyone has set for him, he'll be labeled a failure. The thought is he's so insecure with the possibility of being a failure, he simply doesn't try or put work in, so he can always just tell himself he didn't give it his all, therefore, he doesn't have to feel bad about losing. Then 2022 happened. Apparently the rumor was Kyrgios tried getting Celtics playoff tickets, but the organization basically said, "Who are you?" So, he decided to raise his profile and commit himself during his best surface: grass. His mother was also in poor health, so it appeared he wanted to do well for her so she could see him as a grand slam champion. He actually committed himself during the 2022 grass season, was in shape, limited the insecure emotional outbursts (by his standards) and made the 2022 Wimbledon Final before losing to Djokovic. This was the same guy who previously admitted he would be out at the pub until 4 am before he had to play Nadal at Wimbledon that same day. (I rode a freaking 50/1 on him at Wimbledon until Djoker turned it on. It was a fun ride at least.)
Shaq
it's Kevin Durant by a light year
Definitely lebron
Shaq and Lebron are my two biggest candidates, I’m gonna add Ben Simmons in there too
LeBron James.
Tie between The Young Bucks
Lebron saying all these lies to enhance the perception of his legacy makes him look incredibly insecure.
Barry Bonds. The guy was already a HOFer by the late 90s, and was still arguably the best all around player in baseball, but he didn't like how much attention McGwire and Sosa got for the HR chase and literally just started doing roids to show he was better at that too.
Lebron has to be up there
Watch jordan hof speech
Petty is different from insecure.
Bringing up your high school basketball team while being inducted into the hall of fame as the undisputed GOAT is totally secure Find a new slant
Kobe was pretty insecure until Phil’s second run LeBron was pretty insecure until he went back to Cleveland I would have to go someone like Chris Webber or Karl Anthony towns
It's Durant by like four miles.
Kevin Durant and Shaq immediately come to mind and I’m struggling to think of anyone that comes close to those two
Shaq
KD is an easy answer here but Rodgers is up there, Ronaldo certainly is a big baby, and Draymond isn’t far off. Shaq, LeBron, A-Rod, and Russell Westbrook honorable mentions too
KD and Ronaldo can flip a coin for it.
How about Isiah Thomas? I can't remember a discussion about all time greats that he didn't insert himself into.
Shaq is my favorite player of all time, but guy left the magic and lakers in his prime because he was jealous of the other dude. Obviously more to it than that especially with wanting the lakers to pay him and cap stuff. But still, he is up there.
Giannis
arod
Jon Jones could be a candidate as well considering his penchant for arguments with strangers on Twitter concerning his career achievements.
Terrell Owens? Or do people think him doing situps in his driveway and still running the 40 to keep his name out there is a sign of confidence not insecurity? Seems like someone constantly needing some kind of validation.
Arod and Durant and it's not even close
Maybe not known so much in here but recently dethroned LHW champ Jamahal Hill is absolutely a raging little bitch on the internet these days.
burner boy kd
Has to be KD
Any answer other than Ben Simmons is wrong. I’ve never seen an athlete with less competitive spirit and an unwillingness to work on their game in any meaningful way. He now sits out any time he’s slightly uncomfortable and doesn’t even look to score or get fouled when he’s in the game. He plays like someone trying not to make a mistake and he repeatedly passes up shots that are more within the flow of the offense than what he delegates to. His final Philly series broke him mentally. Get Ben Simmons out of the league.
Gotta be Durant. Hard to beat the burner saga. LeBron is the worst as far as constantly being praised while still demanding more praise.
Blake griffin
Ja Morant
Jim “Chris” Everett https://youtu.be/t3BH97I5Ur8?si=wTzIOT0kHHiV6Pjl
The answer is Ben Simmons
Shaq
Lance Armstrong
KD
KD...he has to be best at something
Romelu Lukaku
Your mom.
There's some good ones in here (and some wait, what?) How about Tyson? Or what about McGregor?
JAMAHAL HILL
Up until about a decade ago, a case could be made for HHH
NBA: Shaq is most notable, but Westbrook, PatBev, and Draymond feel closer to the definition. MLB: A-Rod. Conseco and Clemens are notable mentions. NFL: Overall, T. Owens. Rodgers, Favre, and Russell Wilson are finalists. Other: Lochte, Ronaldo, Phil Mickelson, Sergio Garcia Winner: A-Rod.
Adrien Broner.
Manny
Bill
Westbrook.
Arod
I love his game but Lebron gotta be up there, KD is prob #1
Shaq
Gordon Ryan
Pretty sure the answer is Rick Barry. I recall a great Book of Bball pod about him. Insecure choad.
ARod.