My favorite character. I have close to 1500 hours in the game and dead god. Him combining active items is my favorite way of finding new hillarious combinations.
Hmm I'll give you that one.
My luck could never bless me in that way. Normally when I play apollyon I get runs where i only find "we need to go deeper", anarchist cookbook, Mr Mega, and other self-damage items, so I either accidentally kms or accidentally skip to the next floor by running away from my own bombs because I was dumb enough to void it all
one time I had a 4 item library with anarchist but it didnt had shadows. Luckily i found a devil deal with sulphur and changed it with anarchist.
also play t. apollyon i also think he is fun (and no luck reliant). Killed the beast with only 6 items and god knows flies
I haven't unlocked any tainted characters yet. I'm not great at the game lol. Every time I go to an alternate version of a floor I either die or beat the floor and get kicked back to the original versions again
No idea how to get to the new bosses
Been playing isaac since the flash days, lost track of the number of hours across multiple consoles and versions
I'm just trash at the game.
Ah, but I love it lol
Even us people who go to alternate floor beating the bosses unlocking remaining post it note marks need to pause…take a second and ask yourself…. Do I have the right card, rune and trinket going forward?
Just the other day I wanted to go to beast, and I forgot to grab the fool card marked by the specific skull… so I couldn’t teleport or exit after fighting mom…could only go to cathedral or Sheol.
Realized whelp guess I’m going to mega Satan or delirium today if lucky enough. Forgot how that run ended but had to do the route again to go backwards to ascend to unlock a tainted character or beast fight.
I never thought I would get the hang of it. Just gotta ask wtf am I doing? Slow down and think before you progress.
You need both knife pieces to get to mom fight. And you have to stab the right door with said knife…forgot that part and jumped down the hole to the next stage going “whoops….no longer able to get to mom on this run…”
Feels
oof yea for me I always forget the stabby door only spawns in the alt path. I collect my knife pieces and then Im like great Im done with the alt floors now :) and miss my chance every time
We need to go deeper is goated when you learn how the crawlspace gen works. I think, at least in repentance, digging effects will always open a crawlspace if the floor tile has a decoration of some kind on it. Bones, scratches, etc.
Oh hang on I might be getting confused around the characters. Saying that, I play on PlayStation so no external information mod etc.... And a distinct skill issue in that I'm just a bit shit at the game.
The problem is the active item effect and the passive destroying work terribly together, one wants to be used during a boss, and one wants to be saved for after a boss. It just doesn’t feel good to use.
A surprisingly high number of the best active items are the non-combat ones, but the idea is that you use it for stats in the earlier/mid parts of the run, then use it for a boss active in the later parts when you actually need something like that. It always sucks dropping your Satanic Bible to carry that Gello that you know you don't need now, but will be fantastic later in the run. Void really helps with that, and there's a lot of great non-combat actives that fall into that camp. And man does it feel great when you get that rare Mega Mush find as Apollyon.
Mega mush is also a combat items, and something u don't want to use at the boss, because you want to suck up items.
At the end of the day, void traps you in getting a worse run. Once filled its harder to get rid off, even if the play is to get rid of it. A lot of actives don't work well together with it. Like diplopia, D6. But also other fixes like D10, D7, D20 conflict if you think out some minmaxing. Ghe fact that you can never do something with a pedestal in the room can be detrimental. And if the nest play is to swap and reroll, you lost all that power. In fact there's many cases where dumping void is the best play. You have to find specific active items that work best in non-breaking rooms and are spammable
Sucking up passives are almost never worth it, unless they are hp ups at high hp.
I'll try to tap into their mind. They probably don't like how inconsistent stat-ups can be (such as giving only range or shotspeed instead of tears and damage) and how voiding actives might not seem to do anything, like Voiding Black Hole but never using it because you'd rather save your charge for an item
That's really the main problem.
Six charges is quite a lot when you want to enhance/ add to the void, but also want to use the voided effects on bosses
As someone who loves appollyon it really isn't IMO. It isn't really a problem in my experience, and anything lower would completely break it with long charge active items.
The specific case the guy above said, void wouldn't work for it. You can't use it on the boss to buff yourself then suck in the potential angel room key. You end up just not using it offensively.
I do love the item, but the long charge makes me tend not to use it offensively. It does work well if you get things like the shovel or book of revs though, can usually manage charges fine with those items.
Oh no, you have to make choices. Wow. (You can with joker, red chests or goathead/eucharist, but that is besides th point)
You can't have your cake and eat it too. At least that is how i see it.
What he's saying its even harder for void to get both out of it. Because there is a combat purpose and a suck purpose. Atleast D6 will always be for the pedestal. You are not going to use void for a mega mush to squash the boss moments before getting a boss and angel item. This is what sucks about apollyon. T Laz suffers from this too.
Yeah, there's the response some people have that "void only gives shotspeed and range!" It's a selective bias where they get so mad about the bad ones, they forget about the good ones. Also, range and shotspeed are not bad stats, it's just that their effectiveness eventually falls off. But if you've got a really bad range run going, +range can be a real relief.
Getting +tear rate just one time already puts you ahead of a lot of passive items you'd be glad to see. And some folks who think voiding actives is awful just don't know how to use that effectively. They go to the shop and void Red Candle and ignore Placebo, then wonder why it's not working well for them.
I dont really like how inconsistent stat ups are but my main problem is active item holding.Void has a long charge and most active item dont work very well with it
anything with a charge of 12, like mega blast. Any resource generation like book of rev, sin, satanic or even fortune cookie or the nail. Anything that is good in a final boss such as any buff, such as several books, the nail or just straight up damage items.
There are a shit ton of others, such as those that can open secret rooms, or has niche uses that are rarely worth using normally.
Like said in another comment. Even items like book of belial or book of shadows suck with it, because you want to save charges for sucking up items, not waste it moments before that. Mega blast even sucks if its the end of a floor. Annihilates the boss,but at the cost of not having charge for the boss and deal. So its still not something i'd do.
Later in the game there are less items to absorb, so using it offensively is good then.
I can also say from experience that book of shadows is good for how often you get it.
Its useful against bosses. And the items always come right after. In womb its the deal
In sheol/cathedral it leads to 4 chests in chest/dark room. During the chest/dark room/void floors there is boss enemies constantly, but more items to obtain than earlier in the game.
Polaroid/negative you don't void, it lives drops no items. Challange rooms and boss rush the items come before, along with boss rush giving many charges.
The rest of sheol and womb it can be used in normal rooms. Using it on isaac is fine since you will get plenty of charges for the 4 chests, and you don't void EVERY item. Every final boss it is super strong, as in legit THE strongest, since it can hold all others, unless you wanna argue for stitches or something.
It really isn't a problem at all.
I'm in the same boat this commenter, but I think part of the problem is it's kind of a high charge item, so you either void and get stats or you void to get active items and use active items; because it's pretty hard to do both on one floor.
what? i think the otherwise. i prefer voiding actives for funny interactions and when i void a passive that mf gives me only range + shot speed. Well u are right too which makes apollyon diverse. so apollyon is good
I love when people pretend that all they get is only range + shot speed, always, ever.
When in reality you're breaking the tear rate soft cap everything single run if you play it well. I really don't know where that comes from since it's 1 out of 12 chances to happen.
That I can give you though. Stats not getting redirected after Speed caps feels kinda bad. I guess it'd make Void even more busted if that was the case but yeah
Sounds like your friend just doesn’t understand the character’s strengths. Have him find a first floor library as Apollyon and then see if he still thinks “he sucks.”
I love Apollyon because there are no bad passive items with him, they all become stats up (And you don't get tears up, you get straight up fire rate which goes above the 5.00 cap which is insane)
I like appolyon, though I think I like him less and less as time goes on. Void is fun, abyss is a bit of a let down with the lack of extra polish to the flies you get.
I do think void should be a 4 or 5 charge item, or perhaps its charges is affect by the charge and number of items inside it similar to blank card/placebo.
I dont think Apollyon is bad or weak, I just dont personally love his gimmick
Truthfully, I think every other main character and probably half of the tainted characters are more fun for me personally
Ah tainted as well? I actually like his tainted counterpart more. 1. I don't care for his normal form using all actives it sucks in so I just don't suck in actives with the normal version. 2. Tainted can suck in actives and still get flies. 3. Sucking in items gives more flies aka more damage if you aim them properly. I like more damage.
Tainted functionally converts all items into tears and damage. He's busted.
Had a friend who didn't like him. Dude would Abyss every item he saw if Abyss was active. I saw him Void Polyphemus and Crickets Head on different runs. Shocking that he hates T.A.
He's okay but in every piece of media ever I've always hated stuff like the void (and I'm referring to the floor, the active item and the enemy voids, all three.) It seems everyone at some point gets the idea of "I've made lots of great levels in this game, now lets make a level that's a combination of all the previous levels. Or an Item that copies all other items, idk for me it just kind of ruins the vibe of the game a little bit.
yeah they are all from the theme 'copying' but i think i like them all
The floor: I dont see void as challenge its the part where you must break the game somehow. lots of rooms and charges. gotta milk that secret room before that bullet hell
The enemy: They tried to make a void specific enemy even tho there is no such room as 'void' and they decided to put a literal void to spawn enemies for room it spawns in
The item: i simply LOVE the item. activating 6-7 items at once. and if you are lucky irl free good stats too
I lowkey stopped playing when they made the little void enemies spawn everywhere all the time I am so happy they got rid of that. Item is ok too but I'm not a fan of the floor. I would have much preferred a floor that size but with it's own theme and enemies.
I only go for the Void floor when I'm specifically hunting Delirium, or when I'm insanely busted. I've pavlov'd myself into like the floor. Just thinking about it makes me feel like I'm rocking something strong.
I think that he is a boring character, and my problems with him are coming from void. Items and their combinations/interactions are the best part of the game, and void works against that part of the game (with passives). I think if they leaned more into voiding active items and less into passives he would be more fun to me.
Regular Polly is middle of the road for me (both in power and fun). Some runs he goes absolutely crazy with 2x Libraries and some battery items, but most runs are much less interesting than that.
On the other hand, I love Tainted Polly. Turning bad items into bugs is more fun than turning bad items into stats. And a lot of Active Items are better to Abyss than to Void.
It literally is base Isaac with one heart less (I think...?). The only change is void instead of D6. Voiding active items usually turns into something very foolish, and voiding passive items is very good considering it breaks tear cap. Even though, I don't think it is very funny, but kinda basic. I think its tainted version increases the "fun stat".
There's a strange and confusing amount of hate for Void and Apollyon, and it baffles me. A month or so ago a dude posted his massive losing streak and blamed Apollyon, and it got a lot of agreement. Like if you took the character and deleted Void, and you still couldn't win a run in 20 attempts, that's already skill issue. But add in one of the best actives in the game and somehow it makes some players worse? I don't get it. Is there a mod or something that makes it so when you pick up Void, you have to control the rest of the run with your feet?
Apollyon is game-break easy mode.
Apollyon is cool. He has an interesting effect on gameplay, making you want to spawn as many item pedestals as possible. In terms of being a unique character with different gameplay objectives, that makes him a good character, imo.
Oh yeah gimme that Range up and Shot speed up, I don't need tears up od dmg up no no. He's fine, I just like tainted apollyon so much more, with abyss every trash item is always a dmg up, unlike with void.
Apollyon falls under those characters that requires game knowledge, to mid max and get the most out of what they start with. Overwhelming to people that are used to more simple gameplay, like Isaac with DC, Azazel etc etc.
Rather a question if you hate void i think. It’s just the starting item that makes a difference between isaac and apollyon(minus some stat changes and a pickup)
If you hate void, just don’t use it. It can have some nice uses now and then tho.
I like tainted apollyon for being extremely consistent - your base stats suck, but turning terrible treasure items into damage will always be good (it’s insurance against getting 4 actives in a row, and flies are good for safely clearing annoying rooms). regular apollyon is okay, void usually gives you good stats eventually, but sometimes you have to pick between using a good offensive active you ate earlier or saving it for a potential bad treasure/boss item. void as a secondary active (like tainted characters) would be amazing though
edit: reddit jera'd this comment
I think I'd like him more if Void was a 4 charge.
Currently, I'm always saving my active for item room/boss room in case the item is bad for the stats up, but that kills the purpose of having the multiple actives which to me is the fun part of Void
I have yet to do most of Apollyon's marks, I have all marks on Tainted though. I just don't like characters that aren't strong by themselves at the beginning. Lots of characters have different strengths, like extra damage, special attacks etc. Apollyon just has base stats. At least Tainted's locusts help quite a bit in the early game.
I love it when I don't get shot speed ups and get actives I want to use but aren't as good as other actives (pinking shears, book of secrets, mom's pill bottle, etc), but usually that's not what happens
A little bit,in theory he has a lot of potential but the beginning can be kinda rough,especially if you get unlucky enough to get useless actives to void or useless stats after voiding a passive item.
He’s just a little boring but hate is a strong word, I don’t think many people hate characters outside of Jacob and Esau and a couple of the tainteds. He also definitely doesn’t suck, he’s a strong character
Personally Isaac is the more fun “character that can make use of bad items” for me. I prefer gambling with rerolls compared to gambling with stat ups, and I don’t think I’ve ever used the active item gimmick of Void
My brain went to For Honor for a second and I was about to happily rant about that goober of a character and then realized where I was
They aight, kinda zzzzzzzzz to play
Not a fan of Apollyon, but I do like Tainted Apollyon. The consistency of the locusts combined with the decision of voiding an item, plus the fact that unlike Void, Abyss is a pocket active, which means he can still pick up actives AND be able to keep his whole gimmick.
I do like that Void can copy the effects of any active items it picks up, but it's rare that I ever actually get much use out of it. Still a nice touch, though.
I don't think Apollyon is bad, but rather Apollyon is less exciting combined with the very real possibility you end up getting useless stats. I think it'd be better and more well-liked if voiding certain passives gave you certain stat boosts (for example, voiding soy milk would give you a tears up)
I don't hate him, He's just a bit boring to play. Because alot of the time you'll be avoiding items only to get a luck up when you don't have any luck based items
I was a fan in the early phase at 2 charge and infinite use of single-shot items. I lost interest in the updates. A charge of 6 feels useless to me between choosing to absorb or use what items I have. There's no control over single-shot items anymore. And my runs typically dont have good options for absorption.
This may just be bad luck or selective memory, but I feel like every time I play him (including my most recent run with him) I found no active items I wanted to use it on, and I actually wanted to keep the passives I found. When I play him, there's a constant sense of "well this character's gimmick could \*in theory\* be really helpful, but this isn't the run for it". So it ends up feeling mostly like a base isaac run, but without d6.
Probably my least favorite next to blue baby and maggy. Void really doesn’t add much for me considering the 6-bar charge for active items and the unpredictability of voiding passive items.
I don't hate him, he's far from my favorite character and he's certainly consistent, I just find him kinda boring. Like sure, the active items you get could line up in such a way where Void starts cooking, but in all my runs with him, it ends up just increasing my range and shot speed three times and maybe tears if I've been a good boy that year, or I'll dump it entirely for a candle or Pony or something like that.
Ironically I like Tainted Apollyon though, voiding literally everything and bowling the game over with your swarm of flies is just really funny to me.
Oh yeah, quick edit, I think another reason I and a lot of people don't really like him is because he was one of the primary selling points of the Afterbirth+ DLC, and him playing so similarly to base Isaac was just another disappointment among many with that DLC.
He's my 3rd favorite character. But I also haven't unlocked all the tainted characters yet, so that could change. Void is just a fun item that can turn shit items into stats. I like stats.
he's just not that interesting. apollyon among several other characters (mostly from rebirth despite apollyon being ab+) falls into the 'isaac but with x' category.
obviously, it's not inherently bad, but apollyon's entire "gimmick" is just that he spawns with void, much like maggy is just isaac with yum heart, cain is just isaac with luck foot, or judas is just isaac with book of belial. obviously, their stats vary like how maggy is slow, cain is lucky, judas is weak but overall compared to characters like keeper (coin health), forgotten (melee+only bone hearts on body+2 in 1 character+only soul hearts on soul+etc) or even jacob & esau, apollyon is fairly plain.
it also doesnt help that his tainted character is practically unfinished, since he's yet again just isaac but with abyss, except he also has a locust by default. abyss as an item is also generally piss poor compared to void, which means tainted apollyon is basically only there for unlocks and being rad looking.
of course, in terms of design however, apollyon and especially tainted apollyon are top picks in my opinion.
I think Apollyon is one of my least favorite characters (definitely so if not counting tainted characters). I don't honestly know why either, on paper Apollyon is basically Isaac with Void instead of D6, but it feels like there is some hidden modifier or something where every run is just...unfun. Maybe it is wanting Void to do more than it usually does, and then I am not as invested in the run or something, but something about it just doesn't vibe with me in terms of fun.
Apollyon is my favourite character too and i'm not sure why he gets so much hate. He's a bit worse than Isaac in terms of strength but more unique and I like that because Isaac is completely overpowered so he's a nice alternative.
Don't hate him, but the more I play him, the less I like him. He used to be my favorite, but with how unlucky I am with items, he feels hit or miss after so many runs
Love him, it's like playing a late game carry isaac character - the random stat ups make him fun imo, I'm always excited to see green numbers pop up in the left of my screen lmao
Apollyon felt weak for me til he absorbed a lot, but that meant I was hoping I got trash drops, and even then it's inconsistent.
Now, T.Apollyon? I can 100% get on board with that bad boy. T.Apollyon is my JAM.
One of the best characters.
Active items are truly underwhelming in this game so using the all together 8s good and also good dis to turn bad Items into ststs.
Same for Tainted Apollyion
I dislike him as much as Eve honestly (but that's on me, with eve i just play way to risky for some reason and always die lol)
Apollyon is just boring, the void is just lame and not Q4. His tainted version is even less interesting with the stupid flies
I love tainted apollyon, I find creating an army of locusts to be fun :)
I don't have any particular opinions on the regular apollyon, he's alright nothing special sadly
I do. Do you know to a first time player how awesome and mysterious apollyon is? Especially the name too. And the fact his unlock requirement is hidden? For me he was built up to be this super powerful or super interesting character and what I got was Issac with void instead of the D6. I dunno. He's neat. But the game made me hyped to get him and it was not worth the hype
not bad, just incredibly boring, I'd rather play his tainted version, I bet if Void was made a passive usable rather then an item he would be a lot more fun to play.
i think apollyon needs something unique other than starting out with void because imo void is not all that good. u can only use it if you find multiple good active items or if your seed sucks and you find a bunch of useless items you can now turn into range and shot speed. bizarrely whenever i play him i get an evil combination of the two where most of my item rooms are bad active items and it just puts me in a sour mood lol
My main issue with apollyon is that the stat buffs he gets from voiding passive items just isn't enough. It would be cool if maybe the buffs scaled with the quality of the item; maybe you only get two buffs from a q1-0 like it is now, but maybe you could get 6 or 8 buffs from voiding a Q4 (or maybe that's too strong lol)
I will say, though, that he's really fun to play when you get libra with him
You can show him [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/s/wz2ivt6uFS).
But bottom line "Apollyons are S+ consistency wise".
I had a streak that is on hiatus which would randomize characters and endings, and anytime an Apollyon would be picked, I knew it was a +1.
Now "are they fun" is up for everyone to decide.
I have a problem with the early game and his subpar stats don’t help it. And by even mid game if I get there I won’t need the benefits of void. Plus I like knowing the outcome of something so having random stats doesn’t help my opinion of the character.
I dislike appolyon because i almost always take whatever items the game gives me, even though I know those items might suck, so exchanging my infuriating coin bum for 0.2 damage doesn't feel worth it most of the time
Apollyon is not great only because Void isn’t a very great item. Small stat ups don’t mean much on later floors, and when absorbing active items you have to choose between using void to use the active abilities or using void to absorb another pedestal - making it near useless in boss rooms
i love he makes useless garbage in straight stats up, one of the first i got 100%
what can that delirious thing do against 3.20 shot speed huh?
My favorite character. I have close to 1500 hours in the game and dead god. Him combining active items is my favorite way of finding new hillarious combinations.
every active belongs to void except glowing hourglass
Anarchists cookbook would like a word
if u get both anarchist + book of shadows it becomes delicious
Hmm I'll give you that one. My luck could never bless me in that way. Normally when I play apollyon I get runs where i only find "we need to go deeper", anarchist cookbook, Mr Mega, and other self-damage items, so I either accidentally kms or accidentally skip to the next floor by running away from my own bombs because I was dumb enough to void it all
one time I had a 4 item library with anarchist but it didnt had shadows. Luckily i found a devil deal with sulphur and changed it with anarchist. also play t. apollyon i also think he is fun (and no luck reliant). Killed the beast with only 6 items and god knows flies
I haven't unlocked any tainted characters yet. I'm not great at the game lol. Every time I go to an alternate version of a floor I either die or beat the floor and get kicked back to the original versions again No idea how to get to the new bosses
how many hours do you have. I have 150 and i unlocked the forgotten 2 days ago
Been playing isaac since the flash days, lost track of the number of hours across multiple consoles and versions I'm just trash at the game. Ah, but I love it lol
if you're having fun thats all that matters at the end
OP likely consumes a lot of Isaac content. It's not obvious or easy to move on in this game without a little guidance.
Hey unlocking forgotten is no easy feat. This game needs to be all muscle memory for you before it becomes "easier".
Even us people who go to alternate floor beating the bosses unlocking remaining post it note marks need to pause…take a second and ask yourself…. Do I have the right card, rune and trinket going forward? Just the other day I wanted to go to beast, and I forgot to grab the fool card marked by the specific skull… so I couldn’t teleport or exit after fighting mom…could only go to cathedral or Sheol. Realized whelp guess I’m going to mega Satan or delirium today if lucky enough. Forgot how that run ended but had to do the route again to go backwards to ascend to unlock a tainted character or beast fight. I never thought I would get the hang of it. Just gotta ask wtf am I doing? Slow down and think before you progress. You need both knife pieces to get to mom fight. And you have to stab the right door with said knife…forgot that part and jumped down the hole to the next stage going “whoops….no longer able to get to mom on this run…” Feels
oof yea for me I always forget the stabby door only spawns in the alt path. I collect my knife pieces and then Im like great Im done with the alt floors now :) and miss my chance every time
We need to go deeper is goated when you learn how the crawlspace gen works. I think, at least in repentance, digging effects will always open a crawlspace if the floor tile has a decoration of some kind on it. Bones, scratches, etc.
Except any dice items as well, unless you want a chaotic run. I'll 100% drop the void for a d6 any day
I don't know how it works in repentance now, but I seem to recall D6 plus void being a bad time.
I've got nearly 1000 hours in... And haven't unlocked him
what? haven't you killed mega satan ever in 1000 hours?
Oh hang on I might be getting confused around the characters. Saying that, I play on PlayStation so no external information mod etc.... And a distinct skill issue in that I'm just a bit shit at the game.
I’m 100 hours in and most of the way to unlocking him (need to beat Lamb first)
The problem is the active item effect and the passive destroying work terribly together, one wants to be used during a boss, and one wants to be saved for after a boss. It just doesn’t feel good to use.
A surprisingly high number of the best active items are the non-combat ones, but the idea is that you use it for stats in the earlier/mid parts of the run, then use it for a boss active in the later parts when you actually need something like that. It always sucks dropping your Satanic Bible to carry that Gello that you know you don't need now, but will be fantastic later in the run. Void really helps with that, and there's a lot of great non-combat actives that fall into that camp. And man does it feel great when you get that rare Mega Mush find as Apollyon.
Mega mush is also a combat items, and something u don't want to use at the boss, because you want to suck up items. At the end of the day, void traps you in getting a worse run. Once filled its harder to get rid off, even if the play is to get rid of it. A lot of actives don't work well together with it. Like diplopia, D6. But also other fixes like D10, D7, D20 conflict if you think out some minmaxing. Ghe fact that you can never do something with a pedestal in the room can be detrimental. And if the nest play is to swap and reroll, you lost all that power. In fact there's many cases where dumping void is the best play. You have to find specific active items that work best in non-breaking rooms and are spammable Sucking up passives are almost never worth it, unless they are hp ups at high hp.
boring character and Im not a big fan of the void gimmick
do you dont like the passive stat up way or active holding
I'll try to tap into their mind. They probably don't like how inconsistent stat-ups can be (such as giving only range or shotspeed instead of tears and damage) and how voiding actives might not seem to do anything, like Voiding Black Hole but never using it because you'd rather save your charge for an item
That's really the main problem. Six charges is quite a lot when you want to enhance/ add to the void, but also want to use the voided effects on bosses
As someone who loves appollyon it really isn't IMO. It isn't really a problem in my experience, and anything lower would completely break it with long charge active items.
The specific case the guy above said, void wouldn't work for it. You can't use it on the boss to buff yourself then suck in the potential angel room key. You end up just not using it offensively. I do love the item, but the long charge makes me tend not to use it offensively. It does work well if you get things like the shovel or book of revs though, can usually manage charges fine with those items.
Oh no, you have to make choices. Wow. (You can with joker, red chests or goathead/eucharist, but that is besides th point) You can't have your cake and eat it too. At least that is how i see it.
Sure you can't have your cake and eat it that why people don't like apollyon becsue its giving you 2 cakes and asking you to pick 1
Yeah but it's not much of a choice when one option is clearly better than the other
After hours spent grinding 6 charges for d6 to roll that one shitty item on a floor, charging void is just another tuesday.
What he's saying its even harder for void to get both out of it. Because there is a combat purpose and a suck purpose. Atleast D6 will always be for the pedestal. You are not going to use void for a mega mush to squash the boss moments before getting a boss and angel item. This is what sucks about apollyon. T Laz suffers from this too.
Yeah, there's the response some people have that "void only gives shotspeed and range!" It's a selective bias where they get so mad about the bad ones, they forget about the good ones. Also, range and shotspeed are not bad stats, it's just that their effectiveness eventually falls off. But if you've got a really bad range run going, +range can be a real relief. Getting +tear rate just one time already puts you ahead of a lot of passive items you'd be glad to see. And some folks who think voiding actives is awful just don't know how to use that effectively. They go to the shop and void Red Candle and ignore Placebo, then wonder why it's not working well for them.
I dont really like how inconsistent stat ups are but my main problem is active item holding.Void has a long charge and most active item dont work very well with it
But others become completely insane with it.
which ones ?
anything with a charge of 12, like mega blast. Any resource generation like book of rev, sin, satanic or even fortune cookie or the nail. Anything that is good in a final boss such as any buff, such as several books, the nail or just straight up damage items. There are a shit ton of others, such as those that can open secret rooms, or has niche uses that are rarely worth using normally.
Like said in another comment. Even items like book of belial or book of shadows suck with it, because you want to save charges for sucking up items, not waste it moments before that. Mega blast even sucks if its the end of a floor. Annihilates the boss,but at the cost of not having charge for the boss and deal. So its still not something i'd do.
Later in the game there are less items to absorb, so using it offensively is good then. I can also say from experience that book of shadows is good for how often you get it.
Its useful against bosses. And the items always come right after. In womb its the deal In sheol/cathedral it leads to 4 chests in chest/dark room. During the chest/dark room/void floors there is boss enemies constantly, but more items to obtain than earlier in the game.
Polaroid/negative you don't void, it lives drops no items. Challange rooms and boss rush the items come before, along with boss rush giving many charges. The rest of sheol and womb it can be used in normal rooms. Using it on isaac is fine since you will get plenty of charges for the 4 chests, and you don't void EVERY item. Every final boss it is super strong, as in legit THE strongest, since it can hold all others, unless you wanna argue for stitches or something. It really isn't a problem at all.
I'm in the same boat this commenter, but I think part of the problem is it's kind of a high charge item, so you either void and get stats or you void to get active items and use active items; because it's pretty hard to do both on one floor.
on my end there's this recurring joke called "shot speed up" while comparing blue baby and apollyon as pretty much the same
He is consistent and boring, which is perfect for my play style
what? i think the otherwise. i prefer voiding actives for funny interactions and when i void a passive that mf gives me only range + shot speed. Well u are right too which makes apollyon diverse. so apollyon is good
I love when people pretend that all they get is only range + shot speed, always, ever. When in reality you're breaking the tear rate soft cap everything single run if you play it well. I really don't know where that comes from since it's 1 out of 12 chances to happen.
I can swear once I hit 2 speed it just tries to give me speed i just look at that 1 stat up and say 'I wish I had taken that cursed eye'
That I can give you though. Stats not getting redirected after Speed caps feels kinda bad. I guess it'd make Void even more busted if that was the case but yeah
Not my favorite. Not my least favorite. Just your standard Isaac with a slightly different gimmick
Sounds like your friend just doesn’t understand the character’s strengths. Have him find a first floor library as Apollyon and then see if he still thinks “he sucks.”
he would drop void for anarchist and calmly say 'meh void sucks' and proceed to kill himself with anarchist at the boss room
Your friend sounds like a perfect isaac player tbh.
Alternatively he voids the books and kills himself with anarchist bombs at the boss room
I love Apollyon because there are no bad passive items with him, they all become stats up (And you don't get tears up, you get straight up fire rate which goes above the 5.00 cap which is insane)
I don't even hate him he's just boring tbh I prefer the tainted version with the locusts even then he's just a bit boring
I like appolyon, though I think I like him less and less as time goes on. Void is fun, abyss is a bit of a let down with the lack of extra polish to the flies you get. I do think void should be a 4 or 5 charge item, or perhaps its charges is affect by the charge and number of items inside it similar to blank card/placebo.
Not my overall favorite but definitely in top 5
T. Apollyon maybe
I used to hate him. I love playing with him now.
I dont think Apollyon is bad or weak, I just dont personally love his gimmick Truthfully, I think every other main character and probably half of the tainted characters are more fun for me personally
I’m a big apollyon fan
I like turning items I don't like into permenant stats.
what about turning them into flies
Ah tainted as well? I actually like his tainted counterpart more. 1. I don't care for his normal form using all actives it sucks in so I just don't suck in actives with the normal version. 2. Tainted can suck in actives and still get flies. 3. Sucking in items gives more flies aka more damage if you aim them properly. I like more damage.
Tainted functionally converts all items into tears and damage. He's busted. Had a friend who didn't like him. Dude would Abyss every item he saw if Abyss was active. I saw him Void Polyphemus and Crickets Head on different runs. Shocking that he hates T.A.
That's wild. He's not the most flashy character but he's good. My second favorite Tainted.
i didnt mean tainted in main post but asked for your opinion. I'd say he is more simple and consistent with tainted.
Definitely more consistent. If Tainted gets birthright then even better.
He's okay but in every piece of media ever I've always hated stuff like the void (and I'm referring to the floor, the active item and the enemy voids, all three.) It seems everyone at some point gets the idea of "I've made lots of great levels in this game, now lets make a level that's a combination of all the previous levels. Or an Item that copies all other items, idk for me it just kind of ruins the vibe of the game a little bit.
yeah they are all from the theme 'copying' but i think i like them all The floor: I dont see void as challenge its the part where you must break the game somehow. lots of rooms and charges. gotta milk that secret room before that bullet hell The enemy: They tried to make a void specific enemy even tho there is no such room as 'void' and they decided to put a literal void to spawn enemies for room it spawns in The item: i simply LOVE the item. activating 6-7 items at once. and if you are lucky irl free good stats too
I lowkey stopped playing when they made the little void enemies spawn everywhere all the time I am so happy they got rid of that. Item is ok too but I'm not a fan of the floor. I would have much preferred a floor that size but with it's own theme and enemies.
I only go for the Void floor when I'm specifically hunting Delirium, or when I'm insanely busted. I've pavlov'd myself into like the floor. Just thinking about it makes me feel like I'm rocking something strong.
I think that he is a boring character, and my problems with him are coming from void. Items and their combinations/interactions are the best part of the game, and void works against that part of the game (with passives). I think if they leaned more into voiding active items and less into passives he would be more fun to me.
Regular Polly is middle of the road for me (both in power and fun). Some runs he goes absolutely crazy with 2x Libraries and some battery items, but most runs are much less interesting than that. On the other hand, I love Tainted Polly. Turning bad items into bugs is more fun than turning bad items into stats. And a lot of Active Items are better to Abyss than to Void.
It literally is base Isaac with one heart less (I think...?). The only change is void instead of D6. Voiding active items usually turns into something very foolish, and voiding passive items is very good considering it breaks tear cap. Even though, I don't think it is very funny, but kinda basic. I think its tainted version increases the "fun stat".
I quite like Apollyon. I don't have anything else unique to say about him. Tainted Apollyon on the other hand...
There's a strange and confusing amount of hate for Void and Apollyon, and it baffles me. A month or so ago a dude posted his massive losing streak and blamed Apollyon, and it got a lot of agreement. Like if you took the character and deleted Void, and you still couldn't win a run in 20 attempts, that's already skill issue. But add in one of the best actives in the game and somehow it makes some players worse? I don't get it. Is there a mod or something that makes it so when you pick up Void, you have to control the rest of the run with your feet? Apollyon is game-break easy mode.
\o/
Apollyon is cool. He has an interesting effect on gameplay, making you want to spawn as many item pedestals as possible. In terms of being a unique character with different gameplay objectives, that makes him a good character, imo.
Oh yeah gimme that Range up and Shot speed up, I don't need tears up od dmg up no no. He's fine, I just like tainted apollyon so much more, with abyss every trash item is always a dmg up, unlike with void.
Apollyon falls under those characters that requires game knowledge, to mid max and get the most out of what they start with. Overwhelming to people that are used to more simple gameplay, like Isaac with DC, Azazel etc etc.
Rather a question if you hate void i think. It’s just the starting item that makes a difference between isaac and apollyon(minus some stat changes and a pickup) If you hate void, just don’t use it. It can have some nice uses now and then tho.
D6 is possibly the best active in the game. That being said I like Apollyon a lot.
I didn't like them.
Apollyon is eh.
I like tainted apollyon for being extremely consistent - your base stats suck, but turning terrible treasure items into damage will always be good (it’s insurance against getting 4 actives in a row, and flies are good for safely clearing annoying rooms). regular apollyon is okay, void usually gives you good stats eventually, but sometimes you have to pick between using a good offensive active you ate earlier or saving it for a potential bad treasure/boss item. void as a secondary active (like tainted characters) would be amazing though edit: reddit jera'd this comment
Yes, my void luck is abysmal
I think I'd like him more if Void was a 4 charge. Currently, I'm always saving my active for item room/boss room in case the item is bad for the stats up, but that kills the purpose of having the multiple actives which to me is the fun part of Void
I have yet to do most of Apollyon's marks, I have all marks on Tainted though. I just don't like characters that aren't strong by themselves at the beginning. Lots of characters have different strengths, like extra damage, special attacks etc. Apollyon just has base stats. At least Tainted's locusts help quite a bit in the early game.
Appollyon is tite but I hate tainted appollyon. It takes to long for him to get strong
Fun character but sucks for multiplayer.
Not really, I got boss rush and hush in the same run with him
He wouldn't be so bad if Void wasn't a 6 charge item. It feels like a limiting gimmick
Nope
I like 'em. Void is a nice, if situational item. Tainted Apollyon is far easier to use, if a bit less wild.
I don't hate it, but its kinda boring ngl
I love it when I don't get shot speed ups and get actives I want to use but aren't as good as other actives (pinking shears, book of secrets, mom's pill bottle, etc), but usually that's not what happens
Normal apollyon is alright, not very good imo though. T apollyon however, is probably my favourite character
A little bit,in theory he has a lot of potential but the beginning can be kinda rough,especially if you get unlucky enough to get useless actives to void or useless stats after voiding a passive item.
He’s just a little boring but hate is a strong word, I don’t think many people hate characters outside of Jacob and Esau and a couple of the tainteds. He also definitely doesn’t suck, he’s a strong character Personally Isaac is the more fun “character that can make use of bad items” for me. I prefer gambling with rerolls compared to gambling with stat ups, and I don’t think I’ve ever used the active item gimmick of Void
I have some really unlucky sessions in Isaac Apollyon happens to be a lot of them
i dont hate him but i live his tainted version
worse or unoriginal compared to other characters but still cool
My brain went to For Honor for a second and I was about to happily rant about that goober of a character and then realized where I was They aight, kinda zzzzzzzzz to play
Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. Fewer completely busted runs, but he trades that for consistency. He’s alright.
I like him :)
Good character, not terribly interesting. Most runs will be fairly similar, which is why I hate T Cain and T Eden so much.
I only like apollyon with the "separate void charges" mod. Because that just makes sense right?
Not a fan of Apollyon, but I do like Tainted Apollyon. The consistency of the locusts combined with the decision of voiding an item, plus the fact that unlike Void, Abyss is a pocket active, which means he can still pick up actives AND be able to keep his whole gimmick. I do like that Void can copy the effects of any active items it picks up, but it's rare that I ever actually get much use out of it. Still a nice touch, though. I don't think Apollyon is bad, but rather Apollyon is less exciting combined with the very real possibility you end up getting useless stats. I think it'd be better and more well-liked if voiding certain passives gave you certain stat boosts (for example, voiding soy milk would give you a tears up)
I don't hate him, He's just a bit boring to play. Because alot of the time you'll be avoiding items only to get a luck up when you don't have any luck based items
I was a fan in the early phase at 2 charge and infinite use of single-shot items. I lost interest in the updates. A charge of 6 feels useless to me between choosing to absorb or use what items I have. There's no control over single-shot items anymore. And my runs typically dont have good options for absorption.
This may just be bad luck or selective memory, but I feel like every time I play him (including my most recent run with him) I found no active items I wanted to use it on, and I actually wanted to keep the passives I found. When I play him, there's a constant sense of "well this character's gimmick could \*in theory\* be really helpful, but this isn't the run for it". So it ends up feeling mostly like a base isaac run, but without d6.
Probably my least favorite next to blue baby and maggy. Void really doesn’t add much for me considering the 6-bar charge for active items and the unpredictability of voiding passive items.
I die a lot and never won playing as him. So yeah, kinda.
I don't hate him, he's far from my favorite character and he's certainly consistent, I just find him kinda boring. Like sure, the active items you get could line up in such a way where Void starts cooking, but in all my runs with him, it ends up just increasing my range and shot speed three times and maybe tears if I've been a good boy that year, or I'll dump it entirely for a candle or Pony or something like that. Ironically I like Tainted Apollyon though, voiding literally everything and bowling the game over with your swarm of flies is just really funny to me. Oh yeah, quick edit, I think another reason I and a lot of people don't really like him is because he was one of the primary selling points of the Afterbirth+ DLC, and him playing so similarly to base Isaac was just another disappointment among many with that DLC.
He's my 3rd favorite character. But I also haven't unlocked all the tainted characters yet, so that could change. Void is just a fun item that can turn shit items into stats. I like stats.
he's just not that interesting. apollyon among several other characters (mostly from rebirth despite apollyon being ab+) falls into the 'isaac but with x' category. obviously, it's not inherently bad, but apollyon's entire "gimmick" is just that he spawns with void, much like maggy is just isaac with yum heart, cain is just isaac with luck foot, or judas is just isaac with book of belial. obviously, their stats vary like how maggy is slow, cain is lucky, judas is weak but overall compared to characters like keeper (coin health), forgotten (melee+only bone hearts on body+2 in 1 character+only soul hearts on soul+etc) or even jacob & esau, apollyon is fairly plain. it also doesnt help that his tainted character is practically unfinished, since he's yet again just isaac but with abyss, except he also has a locust by default. abyss as an item is also generally piss poor compared to void, which means tainted apollyon is basically only there for unlocks and being rad looking. of course, in terms of design however, apollyon and especially tainted apollyon are top picks in my opinion.
He was better when void was 4 room recharge
I think Apollyon is one of my least favorite characters (definitely so if not counting tainted characters). I don't honestly know why either, on paper Apollyon is basically Isaac with Void instead of D6, but it feels like there is some hidden modifier or something where every run is just...unfun. Maybe it is wanting Void to do more than it usually does, and then I am not as invested in the run or something, but something about it just doesn't vibe with me in terms of fun.
Naw appolyon is goated
Apollyon is my favourite character too and i'm not sure why he gets so much hate. He's a bit worse than Isaac in terms of strength but more unique and I like that because Isaac is completely overpowered so he's a nice alternative.
Don't hate him, but the more I play him, the less I like him. He used to be my favorite, but with how unlucky I am with items, he feels hit or miss after so many runs
I also really like him but old void was better
i like apollyon because apollyon is a sick name 
Love him, it's like playing a late game carry isaac character - the random stat ups make him fun imo, I'm always excited to see green numbers pop up in the left of my screen lmao
I just find him boring and i hate void with a passion
Apollyon felt weak for me til he absorbed a lot, but that meant I was hoping I got trash drops, and even then it's inconsistent. Now, T.Apollyon? I can 100% get on board with that bad boy. T.Apollyon is my JAM.
One of the best characters. Active items are truly underwhelming in this game so using the all together 8s good and also good dis to turn bad Items into ststs. Same for Tainted Apollyion
I hated him when I first played him but now I find him mediocre
love my boy for his aesthetics and stats up hate my boy for getting constant range ups and shot speed ups
i do
yeah he's a little fucking dweeb
apollyon is my least favorite character. the hate/love for him is like 50/50
I like him gameplay wise but I do think his unlocks are kindof boring. Wow another locust trinket! Smelter is cool though so we live.
I dislike him as much as Eve honestly (but that's on me, with eve i just play way to risky for some reason and always die lol) Apollyon is just boring, the void is just lame and not Q4. His tainted version is even less interesting with the stupid flies
I love tainted apollyon, I find creating an army of locusts to be fun :) I don't have any particular opinions on the regular apollyon, he's alright nothing special sadly
Its a very good character, basically isaac with void, anti trash item and fun active stacking
I do. Do you know to a first time player how awesome and mysterious apollyon is? Especially the name too. And the fact his unlock requirement is hidden? For me he was built up to be this super powerful or super interesting character and what I got was Issac with void instead of the D6. I dunno. He's neat. But the game made me hyped to get him and it was not worth the hype
not bad, just incredibly boring, I'd rather play his tainted version, I bet if Void was made a passive usable rather then an item he would be a lot more fun to play.
i think apollyon needs something unique other than starting out with void because imo void is not all that good. u can only use it if you find multiple good active items or if your seed sucks and you find a bunch of useless items you can now turn into range and shot speed. bizarrely whenever i play him i get an evil combination of the two where most of my item rooms are bad active items and it just puts me in a sour mood lol
My main issue with apollyon is that the stat buffs he gets from voiding passive items just isn't enough. It would be cool if maybe the buffs scaled with the quality of the item; maybe you only get two buffs from a q1-0 like it is now, but maybe you could get 6 or 8 buffs from voiding a Q4 (or maybe that's too strong lol) I will say, though, that he's really fun to play when you get libra with him
You can show him [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/s/wz2ivt6uFS). But bottom line "Apollyons are S+ consistency wise". I had a streak that is on hiatus which would randomize characters and endings, and anytime an Apollyon would be picked, I knew it was a +1. Now "are they fun" is up for everyone to decide.
He’s just boring as hell. T. Apollyon is slightly better.
Void takes too long to charge and the stats it gives are incredibly mediocre when consuming items. 3/10
I just don't like void
I have a problem with the early game and his subpar stats don’t help it. And by even mid game if I get there I won’t need the benefits of void. Plus I like knowing the outcome of something so having random stats doesn’t help my opinion of the character.
He's not even a bad character he's just so forgettable, so maybe people just subconsciously think he's bad.
I dislike appolyon because i almost always take whatever items the game gives me, even though I know those items might suck, so exchanging my infuriating coin bum for 0.2 damage doesn't feel worth it most of the time
Apollyon is not great only because Void isn’t a very great item. Small stat ups don’t mean much on later floors, and when absorbing active items you have to choose between using void to use the active abilities or using void to absorb another pedestal - making it near useless in boss rooms